Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: astrofemme on April 30, 2005, 07:06:02 PM
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I just found this website. I found out almost two years ago when my 30 year marriage broke up that I was married to a Narcissist. At that point, I didn't really understand what narcissism was really all about. I thought it was just about people who were overly concerned with their appearance. I now know I have a classic narcissist mother and sister and an absent father who may be narcissistic as well.
Reading up about narcissism has explained a lot in my life history. I was attracted to the ex because he seemed laid back when compared to my parents and he was very charming and popular (of course). I thought I had won a prize. He was a prize alright.
Right after the divorce, I was getting by okay, I think because it was like having an infection drained. I was exhausted but doing better in many ways. Then I went through a period where things were looking up and getting better and I was feeling pretty good. That ended when I had an unexpected health problem which I'm mostly over now. However, I think I'm sliding into depression. I feel like I was flattened by my ex. I have no support network because he was jealous of friends and I have so many NPD relatives.
I work hard to rouse myself. Some days are good; some aren't. I guess I'm wondering if I am just expecting too much too soon out of myself considering what I've gone through and am learning about? Is this a normal stage of recovery after what I've gone through? What are the special circumstances survivors of narcissism go through? I want to feel good again. When will I crawl up out of this black hole I'm in? Did any of you going through this have a period of feeling like you were in a deep, dark hole?
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Dear Astrofemme,
Welcome to this site. Many people here have experienced similar feelings and have had to crawl out of that black hole.
My N husband of 23 years left me quite suddenly 20 months ago. We are soon to be divorced and I am much better today, but I was certainly in that black hole of depression for some time.
Are you in therapy? Taking any meds? My therapist has been a Godsend and the one to explain that my H is N. Otherwise, I would still be blaming myself and wondering how he could have done it. I was on antidepressants for 6 months or so and those really helped to clear the fog and make me feel a little better.
If you are still dealing with this after 2 years, I would think you might need to see a professional and find out what is going on. You said you were better for a time and then had a medical setback. Is that the only thing that happened to put you in this funk?
There are others here who have more knowledge and experience than I, so I'm sure you will get the help you need. Keep posting and hopefully you will start coming out of the hole.
Bless you,
Brigid
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Yup! I've been in the deep dark holes myself but I always seem to come back up for air. If you have been involved with people close to you, ie., husband, relatives who are very narcissistic, you probably have had a pounding done on you so it's no surprise that you feel down. I agree with Brigid that you need to reach out to everyone who may help you and ask for help. Medication is good and talking is the best! One other thing to consider is that this is not your fault! The best thing I did was to have absolutely no contact with those in my life who were "toxic". It is extreme but it gave me the room I needed to figure out who I used to be and who I used to be wasn't bad! Take care....Keep posting...you are not alone! Bittles
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Hi. Welcome to the board.
I too had a delayed reaction and was blindsided by anxiety and depression about a year and half after my divorce. I attribute this to the fact that I was so precoccupied during my divorce with my 2 yo daughter, newborn, and running back and forth to court that I didn't have time to really process what was going on when it was actually happening.
Do you feel that you are having a delayed reaction? Or did something very specific happen recently that triggered your feelings of depression?
Don't hesitate to go to a doctor if you are finding that you can't cope with daily life. Believe me, doctors today have heard everything under the sun and nothing you say will shock them. Unfortunately, they have heard it all before.
If there is anything I can do please PM me. I know how that dark hole feels. I pulled myself out of it with some help from others and you can do the same.
God Bless.
Mia
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it takes a long time to expunge all the anger and pain and emptiness that trying to be in a relationship with an npd causes. You've given so much, taken so much nonsense, and are left drained and wondering if you wasted a whole chunk of your life.
Depression has happened to most of us here.
Therapy has helped me, organising doctors and now another psychiatrist. And medication.
I've just had the year from hell but I'm sitting here tonight typing and humming softly, about ready for bed, peaceful. Not every day ends so well.
But if I can make it through the quagmire that's been my life and come out the other side- you will too.
Start with an assessment for depression, and when you're able start building a new support network away from narcissists and toxic people. I found a church and did voluntary work to keep me busy and with people- even though at times with my mood or illness I didn't feel really with them, but in time I made good friends who are supportive.
When I was depressed I had to learn to accept that people do care, but not always in the ways or time-frame you want them to respond.
I'm rambling, time for bed.
Take care ((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((()))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
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HI,Astrofemme....love the name.
I'm sorry you are having a tough time of it. I think most people here, have been there, and are right there with you, remembering days (maybe even today) when the N battles have just taken a toll.
You asked when you would crawl up out of the big black hole.....
the answer is NOW! You are already on your way out. You have acknowledged you are in one. That is HUGE. You have reached out to others for support, opening up to the possibility that getting out of that hole exists. BEYOND HUGE.
Okay, so it doesn't sound like much, but taking that first "step" is how it starts to happen.
Do you have a therapist you can talk to? I was surprised at how much counseling helped me. And it wasn't just that one therapist who helped, either. Because I was making an effort to get help, other opportunities for help came my way, sometimes almost miraculously. Books, tapes, friends, other counselors, all started popping into my life, once I opened the door to healing. I am not free of pain for the rest of my life now.....nobody is....but I am much more resilient, I know I can get back up when I'm kicked down (and believe me I've still got a live, kicking N-idiot ex husband)
The point is, it can be done, if you WANT to do it. (and you sure sound like you want to). You can have the kind of life you want, as soon as you know what that is. So figure out what it is you WANT (and don't just think about what you DON"T WANT...I know that one is tough) and support, love and light will come your way.
Bless you. You deserve happiness. You will have it.
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Hi astrofemme
I am new here, and 15 months out of a 23 year marriage to an n or a p, I cannot decide which but he is definately skewed. I had to leave my sons (18 &22) who are both brainwashed by him and have been cool towards me with little contact initiated from them. He ended the marriage but wanted us to live together. What he meant was that he wanted to do whatever he wanted and me not say a thing, or just a new way to mentally torture me. I seemed to be in adrenalin for quite a while, (with times of extreme distress) after I left, and needed not to deal with it properly as I had to set up home after I came out of the refuge. But the black hole has really hit now and I see I have Complex Post-traumatic Stress Syndrome. I am seeing two cousellors 2 hours a week, and it is really helping me so much and I am so pleased that I got help to work through it all, 23 years of trauma. I also see that my family from whom I was isolated during the marriage, but who I turned to for support afterwards, are actually toxic to me so I am totally alone now, but meeting people through college and a support group. I am still grieving for my sons but have had to distance myself now as they treat me so disrespectfully unless they want something. Yet I am the one who was ullied and forced out of my own home when I was vulnerable being 55 and having ME and Multiple Chemical Sensitivity. I feel so alone. I am pleased to have found this board though.
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OK got logged in, that was my post above
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Hello Astrofemme,
I'm not an "old-timer" here, but I can certainly vouch for the level of support and concern you will find here. I think you made a wise choice by coming here and letting us get to know you.
And one thing you can do for yourself, starting today, is just that: let us get to know you. The folks here (myself included) are genuinely interested in who you are, what you're facing, how it feels. I think a big part of climbing out of that hole is letting other people into it. Once you do, it doesn't feel nearly so confining or dark.
I haven't been through a divorce, so I don't know how long it takes to heal from that--though I suspect a long time. I do know that long-term involvement with an N leaves deep wounds that take years to heal, and in some ways never do. One of the most potent consequences of the narcissistic personality, I think, it that N's suck all the air out of the atmosphere around them. They appropriate, and then consume, the life force of whatever system they happen to be in--a marriage, a parent/child relationship, etc. There's nothing left over for anybody else. You spend all your effort in the care and feeding of a vacuum. It's more than exhausting; it's defeating. So the feeling that you are empty, bereft of energy and drive, is quite natural. You've spent many years of your life using your energy to feed someone else's. When that person is gone, you don't suddenly have a "surplus" to give yourself--you have a landscape where the air doesn't move, where everything is waiting to see which way the wind will blow, or if there will even be wind at all. Add to that a health problem, and it's really no wonder that you're feeling like you have nothing to give, even to yourself.
Therapy helps for most people. I think the primary benefits of therapy are, first, that you give yourself permission to pay attention to yourself and, second, that you have a supportive guide in the journey. Therapists are like tour guides through the interior landscape--they may not know you, but they know how it looks to be facing what you're facing. They help you not to be afraid, and that is very beneficial.
One thing I find here is that people are very open about their experiences in therapy, and that's really helpful. It's another way in which you are not alone. And if you have questions about therapy--how to look for a therapist, what if you don't feel you're ready for it, etc.--I think everyone here will be more than happy to help you answer them.
I hope you'll continue to post here. My thoughts are with you today.
Best,
daylily
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Welcome astrofemme and Mati.... I can't add much to what's already been said here, except -- believe it, the folks here are real.
Complex PTSD will act a lot like depression, too, but you know that. And it can take a long time to emerge from it, since it takes a long time to fully develop it. Don't despair, time and awareness and validation from others are the best healers, with meds too if your chemistry can use a kick :) .
hugs - and you're not alone - we're here -
Stormchild
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Don't despair, time and awareness and validation from others are the best healers, with meds too if your chemistry can use a kick .
hugs - and you're not alone - we're here -
Stormchild
Stormchild, thanks for that. I sure wish I could take meds sometimes :( But yes validation is really helpful. The worst effect of the PSD for me is the mush my mind has become, especially I have started to study to get a degree but counselling is making a big difference. I have been impressed by the support I have seen here from reading through the threads. I wonder if anyone has any words of advice on how to deal with my sons? I got a book out for children of n's and one of my sons read it. He accepts that his father has a personality disorder but due to me expressing the p's anger, he thinks that I have a PS as wel even though I told him that a psychologist gave me a clean bill of health as far as that goes. His father has so manipulated things that my sons do not trust or believe me despite my total honesty. [/quote]
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Did you know "Mati" can be sort-of-Russian for "Mommy"?
Very sweet.
Has your son ever been in joint therapy with you? Family therapy can help a lot with the credibility issues. It might not be a bad idea for him to know the therapist, see you in the context of counseling, and be able to air his concerns in your presence with the t there listening in a nonjudgmental supportive way.
Just a notion.
(((((((Mati & sons)))))))
(((((((astrofemme)))))))
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Astro:
Welcome to this site. As you can see from the post of Bridgid and dogbit (Bittles) and others that depression is part of it. One step forward, two steps backward. I also had depression after my N experience. Woke up with a black cloud, went to bed with a black cloud. Some days it was just an effort to get my child off to school. So are you expecting to much...probably not, just wanting to get back to some centeredness and wondering how to get there in a hurry. All I can say it is a process, on that you have to allow yourself to work through. I also had an very N backgroud, absent father, looking back a borderline personality mother, and two N brothers. So welcome to the club. Please post here because this is a place of understanding and sanctuary.
Patz
Keep on Keeping on
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Mati,
Welcome to this site. I'm sure you find it supportive and helpful as you work through your situation.
How old are your boys? My son is 20 and I have just started to explain his father's N condition. Because my soon-to-be-ex N H never demonstrated the rage or abusive behaviors that more outwardly show an N personality, our family did not have an awareness of the problems he had until he quite suddenly decided to leave the marriage 21 months ago. He used charm, humor and a lot of lying to manipulate our lives and hide his behaviors. Fortunately my T had my H in therapy while we were in marital counselling, so he was able to identify the N personality and make me aware of it.
I felt it was necessary for my son to have an understanding of it in case I died tomorrow and he would have to work out his relationship with his father. I have not discussed it with my 16-year-old daughter, but will in time. My son and I are very close and he has a lot of anger over what his father has done to me. I think it was almost a relief to him to hear that his father had a personality disorder rather than think of him as just a lying, cheating, sh*%head. If he had any doubts or questions, I would bring him to my T, but so far he is accepting what I have told him.
I have tried to remain as level-headed as possible through an impossible and devastating situation so that my children can have one stable parent. Not always easy to do, but getting my kids through this in one piece has always been my first priority. I guess that would be my only suggestion as you try to work through this with your sons. Continue to support them and love them as they come to terms with the man their father is. I'm sorry that you are having to deal with the PTSD. It is so much to handle at once.
My prayers are with you.
Brigid
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Hi Stormchild (that's a good name)
No I did not know that Mati can mean mummy in Russian. Thanks for that. :D I wish my son would come to therapy with me but he has already refused family counselling. I will broach the subject as it is great idea. I need to think carefully about how to present the idea as his trust of me has broken down so much. He does accept that he has had a disfunctional childhood and went to see a counsellor himself at my suggestion but it did not go well as he said that she told him in the first session that things were not as bad as he made them out to be (by this I gather that he trotted out his issues with me) and that he should get a job!! So much for understanding emotional distress! I told him that he is not a wimp and that she did not understand what it is like to be a victim/child of the personality disordered and that his sense of reality has been twisted so that normal parental behaviour is then seen as abusive (this is how his father has controlled him and won his loyalty) For example, during the period before I left when the psychological abuse was very bad, and n had my two sons ganged up against me, I looked in sons bedroom because I was worried that he was drinking there on his own. I did not go through his stuff but just looked in a cupboard and sure enough there was a pile of bottles (his father had hidden drink from my frequently during the marriage) I had only ever looked in there once, the rest of the time I knocked on the door if he was in and waited till he came to the door (he never invited me in) and often put his arm up across the door as if to hide something. (I was not allowed in either sons bedrooms or the garage, later I found that there was a pile of stuff in the other sons room, and garage that n had bought with some of the £46 000 debt he had secretly got into, and this being a man who has not worked throughout the marriage) The result of finding the drink was that n and he said I had violated his privacy and his respect for me went totally after that and he has treat me very coldly. I knew that day that the relationship between my son and myself had completely broken down. This followed 23 years of little tricks to set us against each other. Unfortunately, because n did not work and was around most of the time and because I was sick with ME and he now has two excellent n supplies.
Brigid
My sons are 22 and 18. I have spoken a bit to the 22 year old about his father's condition in a non judgemental way but his father has succeeded in breaking the relationship down quite a bit. I have said little to the 18 year old, he will just react and even lies to defend his father. My 22 year old used to have a lot of anger towards his father and still has quite a bit but he has a lot of issues with me as n too did not express anger but got me to do it and played many tricks to make me blame my sons for things that he had done and pressed my buttons to make an argument where he looked like the innocent. What you have said Brigid has helped me so much as I had reached the point of giving up as I have tried so hard this last 15 months to improve my relationship with my sons to no avail. I started to detach from them and think that they will just have to lie in the bed they made when they backed up their father in his bullying of me, forcing me to leave my home and they have stuck up for him since then. I have tried to act level headed too so that they have one stable parent but have expressed my emotions a couple of times which caused a bad reaction from them. They excuse their father behaviour though, even though they are suffering for it and are made to feel responsible for him and his little dramas. Whenever we went into counselling, n always managed to manipulate the counsellor. He was the one to end our marriage too then a few months later after I left, said he had made a mistake. He agreed to marriage counselling but the first session was terrible and he sat lying and twisting things so that I refused to go again. I just cannot cope with having a counsellor think that he is the one being abused when i am having such a battle getting back into reality. After a few weeks of discussion I could see that he did not want to change so I said no to us getting back. Since then I have told him that seeing as he will not get into personal counselling, I am getting on with my life and have filed for divorce.
Yes I want to get my sons through this, but I need to do it so that my own health is not brought right down and so I can preserve enough energy to get my own life on track and can get some qualifications so that my retirement is not spent in the same struggle that my life has been. Thanks so much for your prayers :D I must admit that God has seemed so far away for a while.
Mati
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astrofemme,
I think it's natural to fall into depression once the divorce is over and it's back to routine living. Your life may be rather empty due to the N's machinations. Maybe you're starting at ground zero. That's okay, it gives you a lot of new possibilities. Do something good for yourself every day. It's not like you can wake up one morning and be totally recovered from the trauma of this marriage (and by extension your childhood).
mati,
It sounds like your sons have been brainwashed for decades by their father. He led them to believe they had to be his henchmen. I don't think you can undo this by yourself. Either they will go to therapy with you (unlikely, since it challenges their brainwashing), or their girlfriends, male friends, others, will challenge their thinking. They may revise their opinions on their own. My suggestion, for what it's worth, is to work on yourself, protect yourself, realize that if you show some anger and they don't like it, TOO BAD. Tolerate their negative reaction and don't let it get to you (and don't show your discomfort!). If you can tolerate their dislike and rejection for a while, they will realize you are much stronger than they think. Right now they think you're weak. And they think Dad is weak and they have to protect him. This makes them feel powerful. They haven't yet seen a parent who is secure in themselves. That means they will test you repeatedly to see whether you have boundaries and whether you respect yourself. They know Dad doesn't respect himself but they aren't ready to abandon him. They think that's their only choice. Do you know what I'm saying?
bunny
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Wow bunny
When I think of all the time I have coped with this one alone because no-one undetrstands or could give me a clue how to act..... Yes he has brainwashed them for a long time. I cannot believe that I was so dumb. But that's because I am honest with my feelings whereas he is not. You are exactly right in what you say. They think that they are stopping him from commiting suicide. That's where he had me for a long time. I have noticed that the few times that I have stood up for myself and objected to something thery say I get a touch of respect. They will never abandon their father until they know he is bad and not mad and you are right, they may have their thinking challenged by friends/girlfriends and there is not much I can do but get myself recovered. I have put up with a lot of **** from them and sometimes I feel like I have had it. Thankfully today I feel stronger again. But I will be more laid back with them and let them come to me more and offer less help to them. I have gone back to school and they have decided to do that now too. Their father just sits doing nothing. Thanks again for the insight.
Mati
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Thankfully today I feel stronger again. But I will be more laid back with them and let them come to me more and offer less help to them. I have gone back to school and they have decided to do that now too. Their father just sits doing nothing. Thanks again for the insight.
Mati
Hiya Mati
I am sorry for the position you find yourself in. It sounds like a nightmare.
I have told my daughter this story, which is an excerpt from Trapped in the Mirror by Elan Golomb. It is quite a difficult story, but I find it grows in meaning, the more I think about it.
"A mother bird was able to fly only one of her four babies at a time across the ocean. She put a fledgeling on her wing and said, "When I am old, will you fly across the ocean with me on your wing?"
"Oh yes, mother" said the birdie out of love. Mother took this baby out over the ocean and dropped it in.
She went back for the second, and asked the same question. "Mother I love you so much that I will save you then."
The second birdie followed the first into the drink. Mother dropped the third one to drown for the very same response and approached her fourth.
Asked what this birdie would one day do when it was grown and she was old, it answered. "Oh Mother, forgive me. I love you so much, but when I am your age I shall have my own young to carry across the sea."
This baby was carried to the farther shore."
Which means that children should not sacrifice themselves to save their parents' lives. It might feel like the right thing to do, but actually it is not. The child becomes the adult, and the parent becomes the child. Even though your sons are quite grown up, they still have the right to be the children to you and their dad, rather than having to take the parental role themselves.
I agree with the comments about taking your son to family therapy, if you can do it.
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However, I think I'm sliding into depression. I feel like I was flattened by my ex. I have no support network because he was jealous of friends and I have so many NPD relatives.
I work hard to rouse myself. Some days are good; some aren't. I guess I'm wondering if I am just expecting too much too soon out of myself considering what I've gone through and am learning about? Is this a normal stage of recovery after what I've gone through? What are the special circumstances survivors of narcissism go through? I want to feel good again. When will I crawl up out of this black hole I'm in? Did any of you going through this have a period of feeling like you were in a deep, dark hole?
I would say that depression is a normal part of the reaction to what you have gone through. Many of us have had the same, and the depression can either lift after a short time or be more resilient, depending on whatever else is going on.
The best I can suggest is that you accept the depression as a symptom of whatever else is around, and try not to be too hard on yourself. There are no 'shoulds' or 'oughts' with depression. You are doing well to keep going, and an important part of that is to recognise achievements, and allow yourself to feel good when you see them. It is very easy to dismiss what we have done, and only see what we have failed to achieve, and then to spiral downwards as a result. (Been there!!)
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Hi October
Thanks for that story. I will give it a lot of thought. Yes I totally agree with you that a child should not have to be the parent. I think that I can forgive my husband for what he has done to me but I do not know how I can forgive him for what he has done to my sons. Perverting someones reality is a terrible crime but I knew reality before I met him and can get back into it but they have known nothing but his lies and twisting of the truth. If only I had found this site sooner when my son was more open and saying he did not know who to believe. His father stepped things up though and I feel that I am losing. But thanks for your post.
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Hi all:
Hello Astrofemme and welcome.
He was a prize alright.............it was like having an infection drained.
This made me giggle :D and it would be funny, if it wasn't so sad. :(
Maybe the depression is the infection coming out? You've been through many years of stuff and now that you are finally away, and all the details of going are done with......you are grieving all that you have lost. Who wouldn't feel sad? :( That's a long time to spend with someone and that experience/recalling it may revisit what happened in childhood...so there is more grieving. :( :(
Glad you are here and hope you will find the support you need.
Same to you Mati. :D It's not very nice having your children brainwashed against you....especially by strong forces. :( I agree that you must look after you and do whatever is necessary to help yourself out of whatever downward spiral is occurring.
Maybe don't ever give up hope that your kids will one day come to see you in a better light? Rather, maybe hold onto that hope and work toward improving yourself/your life in anticipation/patiently waiting for that to happen?
GFN
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GFN
Maybe don't ever give up hope that your kids will one day come to see you in a better light? Rather, maybe hold onto that hope and work toward improving yourself/your life in anticipation/patiently waiting for that to happen?
That is just about the best thing I have heard, giving me hope. Thanks so much.
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I sure wish I could take meds sometimes :( But yes validation is really helpful. The worst effect of the PSD for me is the mush my mind has become
I too have ptsd, and I also find that anti depressants and psychotics are too strong for me. (Yes, was prescribed both at one time; took ads for years, on gradually increasing doses. Ptsd is very resilient to ads, imo.)
I now take St John's Wort, but not every day, and not the full dose. The bottle says to take 3 every day. I don't. I take one when I need it, like aspirin. Then, if I feel bad later in the day I take another, but I never take more than 2 in a day. It helps enough to take the edge off the depression, without turning me into a zombie. It also helps to know there is something there, although to be honest, I haven't taken any for weeks now. Yesterday I almost did, but then I forgot. :oops:
More info on meds etc on http://www.bein.com/cgi-bin/gforum/gforum.cgi?
Support site for ptsd. Don't leave here, though. :)
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Perverting someones reality is a terrible crime but I knew reality before I met him and can get back into it but they have known nothing but his lies and twisting of the truth. If only I had found this site sooner when my son was more open and saying he did not know who to believe. His father stepped things up though and I feel that I am losing. But thanks for your post.
It is easy to feel this way, and to despair, but I would say that your sons can see you, and can see another version of the truth. It must be very confusing for them, but they are your sons too, and I am sure that in time things will get easier with them. You are not losing, and neither are they. There are many people here who spent years buying into the N lives of parents or spouses, but who nonetheless found a way out, even without a loving mother to help them.
Sometimes people become more entrenched in an opinion or point of view when they are faced with an alternative. It is part of the reassessment process to first of all deny the alternative, before then looking at it in more detail, especially if the person proposing the alternative does not become entrenched in their turn. Imo, you have said what is true, and that is enough. Leave it to your boys good sense, now, and they will work it out for themselves. But if you get the chance, always tell the truth as you see it.
Give them time, and meanwhile show them what love is, and what a healthy lifestyle is. (((((hugs)))))
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October (((hugs)))
Thanks for that site. I had forgotten about St John's Wort. I have taken Kalms when I felt really distressed and I think I will get them out of the cupboard to get me through this period and try the SJW as well. Boy again, am I glad I found this place. :)
Yes of course, others find a way out with n parents and go on to be whole. How encouraging. I maybe have been trying too hard and maybe saying too much at once and will leave things now for a while, to let the one I have spoken to think about it. Things have been worse though and I have lost a bit of contact with him. He was opening up a bit but it stopped even though I was being as careful as I could be. Coping with grief at losing my relationship with them at the same time as trying to keep in contact whilst being treat coolly and offhand is the hardest thing I have had to do.
One problem has been a 'friend' who I see occasionally and who has been encouraging me to have nothing to do with them now. I can feel myself distancing from them but I don't want to do that nor could I go on as I was. I think that she had a motive in that she has no contact with any of her family and wants others to be the same as her, whereas I believe in forgiveness. I need to know where to draw the line when being abused and helping my sons out financially when they both are better off than me is one thing I have stopped. I was able to cope with all of this before and be strong but I don't seem to be able to do it anymore. But coming here has helped me a great deal knowing I am not alone and there are others here who can advise. Oh joy I have just received a friendly e-mail from the son I talk most about! He has been busy recently. I am so on a roller coaster worried all the time they will break contact.
thanks October
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Hi Mati:
I'm glad that what I said gave you hope. Don't ever let go of that hope! It's important and no one knows what will happen in the future. It is quite possible that things between you and your sons will improve, especially since you are trying so hard and want that so much.
I learned that there is a scale of parenting. At one end of the scale is the dominating parent and at the other, is the door mat. The dominating parents says: "Go get your boots on now!", in a dominating tone, and the door mat says: "If you feel like, when you're ready, if it isn't too much bother, please, please get your boots on, as long as you want to", in a weak tone. These are extreme examples ofcourse.
It's impossible to be perfect and not tend toward one end of the scale or the other, in our parenting careers. No one is a perfect parent.
I tend to be more of a door mat, at times. Often times, actually, and that isn't good. I think society expects that of us as mothers. We are supposed to constantly sacrifice and meet every need of our children, as often as we can (which I have done and really felt it was ok, at the time). In the last few years, I have been working away from that because I realize that my children will benefit by learning a happier medium.
And because I have needs too. Denying my needs breeds resentment (even if it is unconscious resentment). The problem is knowing what I need, expressing what I need, without seeming that mine are the only needs. That would be dominating. So, I guess, as most people are, I am trying for some where in the middle. But......definately aiming away from giving in too often, which leaves me feeling used and as if my needs are nothing.
It feels really weird to voice my needs sometimes (because I don't expect my children to meet my needs. I expect to meet theirs). The happy medium might be something like: "I need you to please put your boots on because it's time to leave and I don't want us to be late".
Express the need/desire, the action wanted, the reason for it. Short and sweet. I've done this some of the time but maybe not most of the time.
Maybe you are a bit like me and need to do a litte more work on expressing your needs.
"I need to know you're ok. Would you please call me because it would really help to hear from you and about what's going on in your life. I like to hear from you."
Would that be close?
A friend once said: "To a teenager, parents are just a wallet with wheels".
This helped me to feel ok, that my teenager wasn't ignoring my needs on purpose, that other people experienced the same thing, teens wanting cash and a ride and that's about it. Not really interested in the parent because it's a normal part of teenagehood. To live their own life, be with their friends, go out, do things, have fun, and still be dependant in certain respects on parents. It's part of becoming an adult, while being a kid at the same time. It's a gradual turnover.
Now your sons are adults. You don't have to be a wallet with wheels any more. The pendulum has to shift. They have to learn that you are there to support them but that they must become independant. Otherwise, what will happen when you're gone? No more money from mom. No one to depend on and unable to depend on themselves.
And....if this continues.....you will resent not having your simplest needs met. That's not being a good mother. That's being a door mat, imo. I know what that's like and I also know that it is not easy to swing to the center and stay there. There will always be times when I am a door mat. But once in awhile, I intend to be downright dominant.....if they choose to totally ignor my needs. And I can be dominant, politely, kindly and respectfully.
"Please call me at some time when you don't need money. I need to know that you care about me and not just my wallet. I care about you and would appreciate very much just talking with you sometimes."
or
"I hope you don't believe everything you hear about me because gossip tends to be distorted and untrue. I'd like to spend more time together and work on building a closer relationship. Then you can judge for yourself. I care about you and I miss you."
It meets our needs to express our feelings too. Your sons will live through hearing how you feel. They will probably grow into better men by you doing that. Moms are supposed to just listen (according to the prophesy) but the truth is....moms are people too.
Don't know if any of this will help. I hope so. Sorry if it's way off.
GFN
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October (((hugs)))
Thanks for that site. I had forgotten about St John's Wort. I have taken Kalms when I felt really distressed and I think I will get them out of the cupboard to get me through this period and try the SJW as well. Boy again, am I glad I found this place. :)
Might be an idea to check with a pharmacist if you want to use both together. SJW is very similar in effect to an a/d in my experience; same side effects. Just call me overprotective!! :lol:
Yes of course, others find a way out with n parents and go on to be whole. How encouraging. I maybe have been trying too hard and maybe saying too much at once and will leave things now for a while, to let the one I have spoken to think about it.
I don't remember anyone here saying you have been trying too hard!! Trying too hard to be a good mum to your boys? Can't be done. :)
One problem has been a 'friend' who I see occasionally and who has been encouraging me to have nothing to do with them now. I can feel myself distancing from them but I don't want to do that nor could I go on as I was. I think that she had a motive in that she has no contact with any of her family and wants others to be the same as her, whereas I believe in forgiveness.
I have this problem with some of my friends too. You are very perceptive in recognising that sometimes what your friend says is more about her than about you. It is about learning to hear that still small voice inside, and learning to trust it. If you follow your own intuitions, as you have done, you won't go far wrong, imo, even if the whole world seems to be on the other side at times. (Been there!!)
Oh joy I have just received a friendly e-mail from the son I talk most about! He has been busy recently. I am so on a roller coaster worried all the time they will break contact.
I think you are right to let your sons be financially independent of you now, if they are better off than you are. What you can provide that their dad is unlikely to be able to is emotional support. Be there to cheer the good times and empathise in the bad times. If I had that from anyone at all in my immediate family it would be invaluable.
I'm glad your son has emailed. I think he is unlikely to break contact as long as he knows that you love him, and accept him as he is. Maybe not everything he does, but who he is as a person. Any Ns around will be doing the opposite.
Just thought of one more thing. If you have problems sleeping, liquid Valerian Root from the health food shop is good. But beware; it smells awful. But if you can bear it, it helps. :)
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Hi GFN
Yes you are right. I am a doormat and assume that I should meet my childrens' needs, sacrificing myself. Childhood sexual abuse made sure that my needs were thought unimportant, in fact I did not know I had any for a long time!. That is such an insight for me because I bottle up resentment up until it explodes and then this sudden this anger pops up leaving the other person wonder what on earth they did to deserve that! Nowadays I am much more aware of what my needs are but not how to express them. The examples you gave were just great and I will use them. They are exactly what I want to say.
Yes teenagers are pre-occupied with their own lives, and need to be so, and if I was living with them then I would not be feeling ignored and used. But I am sick and have had a hard time setting up a new home, after having to leave because n ended the marriage, but would not get out himself and he had the boys ganged up with him against me so that I was voiceless and powerless. But all that they can see is that 'we have all had it hard'. They accept that their father should have left, but they wanted to live with him, he being the permissive one, who would let them lie in bed half the day, fill the fridge with beer etc. so me leaving was the best plan in their eyes. I was in such a bad way and did not think I could have coped with their resentment if I had made n leave. They have a lot of issues with me and I have listened to them and said sorry when needed but a lot of it is because n has twisted their reality so that they say that have been traumatised by what I call normal parental behaviour like looking in their rooms once because I was worried about secret drinking and shop lifting. N drove me to the limits so that I would express his anger. Then he used that by letting the boys think that he was protecting them from me. Your post has been a great help, thanks.
Hio October
Yes I will check it out first. I started on the Kalms and feel the benefit already, not so distressed and I bought some camomile tea which is great in helping me sleep. I tried valerian but it is not so good for me and I feel a bit groggy the next day with it.
When I said trying too hard, I meant that I was trying too hard to get their regard, after they had been so angry with me when the arguments got real bad before I left home. I am trying to get them to love me I think but i know it will not work.
Yes I am really learning to listen to the small voice inside after ignoring it badly (with the red flags) especially when I met n. Another area of recovery after child sex abuse (molested by an uncle) I have listened to others too much before but I have learnt to take what they say and test it against what my intuition tells me and just leave it if I am not sure. I really believe that we can rely on it to guide us. I am doing a course for assessing a career etc that teaches you to get into a relaxed state and let the thought come into your mind, on what you will be doing in a years time. The vision you get is your aim for the future. I found this incredibly helpful.
Yes my sons do not get any emotional support from anywhere and I want to give it to them but sometimes it gets a bit complicated due to what I am going through. This is the first time I have been on my own, in a safe place where I can recover, not just from 22 years with n, but a whole lifetime of trauma and abuse with the help of counselling, and I am learning at a phenominal rate!! Every week I can see improvement and talking out the trauma before I left has reduced numerous symptoms and I am sleeping a bit better, have slightly better intellectual function and glory be! have got my comfort eating in control for the first time! And now I have found this board! Actually I think it has come at the right time rather than too late to get through to my sons. Thanks October for your help.
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Oh Dear Mati:
You are not a door mat. You may have tended toward parenting in that style but that style does not make up what you are. I'm sure there were times when you also tended toward the centre of that scale but maybe you are not recalling those times right now. No matter. I just don't want you to label yourself in a negative way. It's a learning experience right? Like all else. And you are trying your best to improve your skill which is all any parent can do.
I'm so sorry for all the abuse you have been through. :( It sounds like you have suffered so much. :( How awful for you! Is this the first counselling you've received? I'm glad it's helping. You need support and you are a smart lady to get it. Good for you!
I bottle up resentment up until it explodes and then this sudden this anger pops up leaving the other person wonder what on earth they did to deserve that!
Maybe there are some other things you can do to help with this? Do you keep a journal to write your feelings in? This helps me a lot so I was just wondering. Sometimes, I put a pillow on the couch and let myself talk, yell, cry, etc to the person I am upset with. Also, excercise...walking really helps. I'm sure you are not the only one who has ever let out excessive anger/resentment toward an inappropriate recipient. The trick....I think, is getting it out...before it gets a chance to build up to such proportions. Maybe this would help you?
he had the boys ganged up with him against me so that I was voiceless and powerless.
I'm sorry that you had to move out under such stressful conditions. It is not fair of one spouse to form a troop with the kids against the other spouse....for no good reason other than to make the other spouse look nasty. What a big baby he is!!! Needs his boys to defend his position against big bad scarey mommy eh? That was downright juvenile and underhanded. I can relate to your feelings and all I can say is .....he is a little snake. :twisted:
Every dog has his day, Mati.
they wanted to live with him, he being the permissive one, who would let them lie in bed half the day, fill the fridge with beer etc. so me leaving was the best plan in their eyes.
This hurts. I'm sorry Mati about this. You might be tempted to think that they are saying that you aren't needed, are unimportant, even that they love their dad more, or similar thoughts. But these things are probably not true. These guys just want to live where it is easiest to do as they like. The will find out soon enough that somebody hasssssss to clean the toilet and wash those stinky socks etc. It's not love they feel for their father, in this case, it's control. Dad will let us do this and that, therefore dad is easier to get our way with. What they don't realize is that Dad will also get tired of watching them sleep and sucking back beers. Or, the place will become a pig stye, in which case, they will have to live with it.
Try to think of this time as you time, Mati. Time for you to deal with the stuff that is/has been bothering you, time to build a healthier better you. You will end up a better parent because of it. Enjoy your peace and the beginning of a new life.
Being emotionally available to your sons is the best thing you can do for them right now. And if they begin to complain about their circumstances, you can empathize with them, let them express their feelings and concerns, and encourage them to become independant, for their own well being, or help them see their choices. If they never complain, then I guess they will all be happy together, which is what you want for your sons anyway. So no matter what....you can think of it as a win-win situation, if you choose to.
n has twisted their reality so that they say that have been traumatised by what I call normal parental behaviour like looking in their rooms once because I was worried about secret drinking and shop lifting.
You know, the first thing I always seem to wonder in situations like this is:
Who is he going to use for a scape goat now?
I mean, now that you're gone, who will he be twisting reality about?
If they were traumatized by your parenting, then they should be perfectly happy and free from now on. My bet is.....they will come to realize who the actual parent is (and it's not him). My bet is also....that you will begin to hear stories about stuff they are unhappy about in regard to him. It's much harder to get up and parent children than it is to just let them do as they like. But once there is no one there to do the actual parenting, somethings gotta give. I totally relate Mati. Very frustrating to live with. I'm glad you're away from that and can now enjoy your peace. :D
I know it's hard but try not to worry too much about what your boys think right now. They are still young. They will mature and become men. Be loving and inviting to them. Let them know you care and miss them. Tell them what you like about them and the things you are proud of about them/their accomplishments. Encourage them to talk and try to hear their emotions/the feelings they are expressing. Respond to those feelings by acknowledging. eg. "It seems like you are angry with Dad right now and you have a right to be." Then, help them to find solutions...."What do you think would help the situation?"
Mati, I'm no expert but I know what it's like living in chaos for years. You are now in a postition to end the chaos in your own life and to provide a calm, comfy, open non-chaotic place for your boys to relax/visit with you in. You can be the good guy now!!! :D
Warning: Don't bad mouth dad, no matter how tempting! Don't stoop to his level. :evil:
(((((((((Mati)))))))))
GFN
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Mati:
I have been reading your thread. I have two brothers who are by products of an N father. Your two sons will have to live a life they choose. If it incorporates the brainwashing of your ex N H, then they will bear the brunt of lost realtionships, lies, manipulations as a standard bearer in their life. Hopefully as you go back to school and pull yourself up, they will see what an adult parent is about and will want to emulate that. It is a positive that they are going to school as well. As they go through life and begin to suffer some of the "slings and arrows of misfortune", they will begin to realize that all is not what it seems.
The more educated they become and the more of life experiences they have, will become a mold that will shape them into something more than they are now. Also for 20 and 18 year old, they are n's by definition of their age. They just do not have the experience and the seperation necessary to see what you see. This is not to make excuses for them in any way. As they move through life, things will evolve in a different manner. You will be the beneficary as you will be the role model on what to do and how to behave.
I am very sorry for your experiences and your childrens. When we are caught up in the N experience it is very difficult to seperate fact from fiction with these people. They are consummate liars. Some times I think Ns are the "fringe people" of the psychopathic world. Not quite full blown psychopathes but just on the edges.
I am very happy you are out of this situation. You will make it. It is hard at first and it does take time to put all the pieces of the puzzle back together but you can do it.
Keep on keeping on
Patz
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Hi GFN
And you are trying your best to improve your skill which is all any parent can do.
Yes absolutely. That should be our focus rather than looking at what we did wrong. I have learnt these lessons in other areas I my life, but have found it hardest regarding parenthood. Are others like this? I wonder why? But coming here and speaking to you and October have really opened up my mind and I am already feeling less anxious about it and more sure about how to be towards my sons so thanks again.
Is this the first counselling you've received?
It is the first effective counselling or perhaps it is the first time that I can be helped. In the past I was in so much confusion that nothing helped much, or rather just temporarily. Too much going on around for there to be a chance I think.
Do you keep a journal to write your feelings in?
Yes I have started one but do not do it as often as I should. But I feel like I am soon going to be able to manage that. A lot of issues are being resolved at present. One thing I am learning is to recognise danger sings in myself and contacting my support netowrk when n starts to draw me in again. This was learnt at great cost recently when I was roped into something that i was not ready for, doing something for a family member because I was thinking of them rather than myself and my own needs especially physical. I have learnt a great lesson there. It will not happen again, well at least not easily.
.....he is a little snake.
A great big one I think :twisted:
Every dog has his day, Mati
Yes, I am very much aware more and more, that I have come out of this much better than him as he is left with his malfunction and I am rapidly learning how to function. I will have a life, but he is trapped, I am not going to waste too much time feeling sorry for him as it is his choice. I feel more sorry for me now :D
It's not love they feel for their father, in this case, it's control. Dad will let us do this and that, therefore dad is easier to get our way with. What they don't realize is that Dad will also get tired of watching them sleep and sucking back beers. Or, the place will become a pig stye, in which case, they will have to live with it.
Unfortunately it is love, because they have not had their relationship with him undermined like they have with me. He twisted things so that they were led to think they feared me, and where there is fear there is no love, I think. He has made them feel responsible for him, and they have taken on the role of parent towards him, agreeing with his twisted world view, that he is a victim. They leap to his defence and even lie for him. They are totally brainwashed, but whether this is really love maybe you are right. I would not mind if my sons were just showing anger towards me. They are mainly indifferent. Perhaps it is my fault and I was a much worse parent than I think. I was not there emotionally for them when things were really bad or when my son from my first marriage commited suicide. I was locked into anger towards n too much to have been the parent I wish I had been, though I always tried to do my best. I am not seeing things too clearly at the moment about this. It might just be the way n manipulated me to feel I was a bad parent.
Yes they have got fed up with a lot of things like junk food and the eldest son has had to take responsibilty of providing healthy food because n can't cook like he can't do anything else that a normal person has to learn.
Try to think of this time as you time, Mati. Time for you to deal with the stuff that is/has been bothering you, time to build a healthier better you. You will end up a better parent because of it. Enjoy your peace and the beginning of a new life.
Yes I am appreciating it more and more that for the first time I have got the space to become whole and deal with all the trauma in my life. The lonliness is hard but i keep thinking that there are worse things in life to cope with. At least I am out of the n chaos.
If they never complain, then I guess they will all be happy together, which is what you want for your sons anyway. So no matter what....you can think of it as a win-win situation, if you choose to.
Well yes up to a point. But their being in a damaging situation living with their personailty disordered father will never be a good thing for them. But if they choose that for now then there is still hope that they will see it one day and escape. Thanks for giving me that hope.
Who is he going to use for a scape goat now?
I mean, now that you're gone, who will he be twisting reality about?
I can see that the eldest son is taking over my role to a certain extent. I could see increasing conflicts developing but then I got locked into a situation of doing something for someone in the family, which has knocked me back a lot. It has been a good learning situation however and I have devoped stronger resolve through it. My relationship with the eldest son has taken a bit of a knock and he is not contacting me much now whereas before he was really opening out and coming to me (e-mail) for support. But I believe that I can get it back to there again, since coming here.
I feel so much clearer now on the way forward with my sons. It is not easy getting it all in balance though so that I do not prevent my progress by thinking of others needs before my own. Your help has been so valuable.
Mati
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Mati,
Now that I know a little more of the situation and the ages of your sons, I have a slightly different response than what I had written originally.
First, let me say how deeply sorry I am that you have had to live through the suicide of your son. I cannot imagine how profoundly devastating that would be. I agree with something Dr. Phil once said about how he would feel if he lost one of his boys--"you'd just have to take me to the dump, because I would be worthless after that." You had every right to fall apart after that experience and its too bad your other sons could not recognize that.
As anyone with teenagers knows, they are very self-centered and think anything or anyone is being unfair if that attention is taken away from them. Your x is using that to his advantage and making you out to be the one who is not putting them in the center of your universe. This is wrong, of course, and you would do anything for them, but they can't see that right now.
I agree with what others have said that the best thing you can do for yourself and ultimately for them is to get to a place of peace and tranquility and moving forward with your life. I would treat their indifference with as much indifference as you can muster and just wait for them to come to you. You need to approach them from a position of strength rather than weakness, so when they (hopefully) wake up and smell the coffee where there father is concerned, they can turn to the parent who is healthy and capable. Make sure they know you are there for them if they need you and that you will always love them, but that you expect a certain level of respect from them and unless or until they choose to do that, you will have limited contact.
Just my 2 cents worth and it may be worthless, but maybe something to think about. I'm sure your therapist has some suggestions too.
I pray that they will eventually grow weary of parenting their father and start seeing him for the pathetic individual that he is. Unfortunately, there is nothing you can do to make that happen.
God bless,
Brigid
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Hello Mati:
You sound like you are getting to a peaceful place.....after all the losses you have suffered.....losing your home, marriage, living with your sons, etc. You do not sound bitter which is a good thing! It just sounds like you are moving toward a peaceful place. I'm glad to hear it (hope I'm not misinterpreting).
Are others like this? I wonder why?
I find it much easier to let go of, learn from, maybe laugh at certain mistakes in life, and move toward improving/preventing a repeat. In parenting...it isn't that easy. I feel immense guilt over whatever parenting errors I've made and I think it is because I'm worried about possibly having caused harm/damage to my children (guilt icon please), which doesn't seem obvious but could still be possible.
In order to move past that mind set I have to remind myself that I am not perfect and cannot expect myself to always parent perfectly, always do everything correctly, and never make a mistake. And for the most part, I know I have been a very good parent and tried and did the best I could. Still....as you say, it is a very difficult area of my life to learn lessons from because of the possible serious consequences to my children. I truly wish, in this area, it were possible to be perfect, or at least, close to it.
It is the first effective counselling or perhaps it is the first time that I can be helped.
I'm glad this is helping and you are feeling the effects are good. You've been through a lot and it's good that you have someone you feel comfortable speaking with and working on difficulties with. Good for you!
One thing I am learning is to recognise danger sings in myself and contacting my support netowrk when n starts to draw me in again.
That's a big step ahead because if you can do this, you will prevent a downward spiral and save yourself a lot of agrivation. Another good thing!!
I have come out of this much better than him as he is left with his malfunction and I am rapidly learning how to function.
That's great for you Mati!! Keep going and soon you will feel like a new person! I'm so glad you this is happening for you! :D
They are totally brainwashed, but whether this is really love maybe you are right.
I don't think it's love. He's just managed to influence them and they believe his bs right now. This won't last forever. Eventually, they will see the light.
Perhaps it is my fault and I was a much worse parent than I think. I was not there emotionally for them when things were really bad or when my son from my first marriage commited suicide.
Oh Mati, I'm so sorry that this happened. How horrific! Please don't blame yourself. You are only human. How old was your son when he did this? (if you don't want to talk about it....no worries. I will understand).
It might just be the way n manipulated me to feel I was a bad parent.
Do you think he may have "brainwashed" you too, some?
Yes they have got fed up with a lot of things like junk food and the eldest son has had to take responsibilty of providing healthy food because n can't cook like he can't do anything else that a normal person has to learn.
I suppose it won't hurt them to take on this responsibility. Maybe it will help them see their father in a clearer light? They certainly won't die from learning how to cook.
The lonliness is hard but i keep thinking that there are worse things in life to cope with. At least I am out of the n chaos.
Well you can find things to do to help yourself combat feeling so alone and maybe even begin to enjoy the peace, right? Do you have any hobbies? Any pets? Do you think you might join a group or a club, take a class or be able to find some new social outlets? Something to look forward to?
I joined a single parent group with the distinct goal of making a few friends who were single parents like me, when I was a single parent. I did just that and it ended up being something really worthwhile and fun. Maybe something like that would help you?
But their being in a damaging situation living with their personailty disordered father will never be a good thing for them. But if they choose that for now then there is still hope that they will see it one day and escape. Thanks for giving me that hope.
They are adults so you're right....they are making a choice and it isn't their only choice. They may choose otherwise in the future. That is all anyone can hope for and it might happen sooner than expected. Who knows?
I can see that the eldest son is taking over my role to a certain extent..... My relationship with the eldest son has taken a bit of a knock and he is not contacting me much now...
That's hard to watch. :( Maybe it will open his eyes to some of what you have gone through and end up bringing you both closer together?
I feel so much clearer now on the way forward with my sons...
Glad to hear it! Hopefully, you can enjoy this time of peace/no chaos in your home and work on helping yourself through counselling and starting a new life, and your sons will see you happier/emotionally stable/healthier etc. This may draw them to you (cause them to want to spend more time with their stable mom...than their disfunctional dad).
GFN
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yep methinks them narcissists
have one of the more powerful or most powerful :)
of those time delayed implants into another
that keep releasing stuff destructive to one's self esteem...
...more later perhaps ....
i didnt read all the comments responses
so perhaps someone else treated aspects of the above
to some degree
or oh my fully gasp
now i dont want to be too charming here
as it might reveal a cloaked narcissist :shock:
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Hi Brigid
First, let me say how deeply sorry I am that you have had to live through the suicide of your son. I cannot imagine how profoundly devastating that would be
Yes, it is the ultimately devastating experience as a parent. You go over every little thing you ever said/did to them through their lives and never come to terms with it. My sons did not get to know him too well as he had gone away and not contacted me for years. I do not hold n innocent regarding his inability to contain the pain in his life. He had been 12 when I married n but left to live with his own father a year later. I have discovered only recently what really went on between n and my children when I was not there. I did not feel supported by n and sons after son 1 died. They had been spoiled by n.
I would treat their indifference with as much indifference as you can muster and just wait for them to come to you
A few people have told me this too.
You need to approach them from a position of strength rather than weakness,
Yes I do feel pathetic sometimes waiting for a few crumbs of attention and walking on eggshells so I do not upset them. It can't be good for them. I have felt fearful about being left on my own but I have nearly overcome that fear now. Some of it is shame ie I am afraid of what others will think of me when they know my sons have rejected me. It goes back to molestation from my childhood. I am building up a good self esteem now though and increasingly reject the idea of anyone abusing me. Yes you are right in that I have a right to expect respect when I am respecting them. It's just that I thought that I could not bear the thought of losing three sons. But I have more hope now that if I do it could just be temporary. Maybe it will be necessary for that to happen before they will see the light. Thanks Brigid. God bless you too.
Hi again GFN
Yes I am getting to a peaceful place after losing everything in my life and I am not bitter because of my faith I think. I can hold onto God's promises like 'all things work for the good of those who are in Christ' because it worked like that in the past. I must admit that it is a struggle to hold on and sometimes I can't.
I truly wish, in this area, it were possible to be perfect, or at least, close to it.
I think it is because we love our children so much that we cannot bear the thought of harm coming to them especially from ourselves but all parents make mistakes. I read once that there was a man whose parents were 'perfect' and his father was so wonderful that he spent his life feeling a failure because he could not live up to him. You cant win!!
You are only human. How old was your son when he did this? (if you don't want to talk about it....no worries. I will understand).
He was 31 and was found in a hotel room after taking an overdose of painkillers. He was a sufferer of schizophrenia and had disappeared for a while. The shock of hearing it from a policeman was devastating. Only my faith in God got me through, during those nights when I would wake up
and the shock of remembering would hit me again and I would cry out to God for help and then find myself able to get back to sleep.
Do you think he may have "brainwashed" you too, some?
Oh yes. I was sucked into his reality that he was a victim. After I left, reality zoomed back and I was left stunned at what I had accepted. But I had spent 22 years trying to reconcile the inconsistencies with oh so many looong conversations and arguments.
Do you have any hobbies? Any pets? Do you think you might join a group or a club, take a class or be able to find some new social outlets? Something to look forward to?
Yes I have joined a support group for the divorced and am teaching them about personality disorders :D and have joined a midweek Bible study group. Holidays are difficult though when they are not on. I know things will get better as I make friends in the future. I also go to one night class a week and they are a good bunch there. I am quite busy really.
Thanks again GFN for taking so much time to reply to me and advise.
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Dear Mati:
I can hold onto God's promises like 'all things work for the good of those who are in Christ' because it worked like that in the past. I must admit that it is a struggle to hold on and sometimes I can't.
To borrow wise words: "There is no pit deep enough that He is not there with you".
He was 31 and was found in a hotel room after taking an overdose of painkillers. He was a sufferer of schizophrenia and had disappeared for a while. The shock of hearing it from a policeman was devastating.
Mati, this was not your fault. Your son had a disorder in his mind that you could do nothing about.((((((Mati)))))). I'm so sorry for your loss. :( :(
Only my faith in God got me through, during those nights when I would wake up and the shock of remembering would hit me again and I would cry out to God for help and then find myself able to get back to sleep.
So sorry for that awful grief, Mati. I know what it's like to lose a child and it never heals. I think you just learn to live with/ tolerate it.
But I had spent 22 years trying to reconcile the inconsistencies with oh so many looong conversations and arguments.
Frustrating waste of time. But you've withstood it all, Mati and you're holding out for better days ahead!!
Sounds like you're keeping yourself busy and taking some really postive steps toward building a better life. My prayer for you that you meet some nice friends to socialize with and laugh some and have some fun. :D
Thanks again GFN for taking so much time to reply to me and advise.
My pleasure. And thankyou for sharing. :D Glad you are here Mati.
GFN
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Hi GFN
"There is no pit deep enough that He is not there with you".
Amen!
I'm so sorry for your loss.
Thanks, GFN. It is good for me to be able to speak about it openly on here.
I know what it's like to lose a child and it never heals
So sorry to hear this. Do you mind speaking about it?
Glad you are here Mati.
Thankyou GFN :D It is a very special place. I have been on many abuse boards but this is the first time that I have felt listened to and cared about in the same way. It helps to hear that others have coped with great losses too.
As i said on the Andrea thread, I have been reading "Why Does He Do That?" by Lundy Bancroft and I have learnt quite a bit about abusers that I did not know and it has opened up to me the reason for behaviour that I could not understand. My 22 year old son, who is like me in a lot of ways, was the baby out of my four, whom I bonded with the most. He would not even go to anyone when he was tiny but me. And he did not like his father to come near me. Whether this was some child intuition I do not know, but for a long time, his father blatently favoured his younger brother. He would come to me often really upset about his fathers behaviour in this favouritism, as his dad always backed up the other in disputes and was so unfair it was un believable. I spent many hours trying to get him to see, and to explain how much it was harming our son, but he denied it all of the time.
I should have seen then that something was seriously wrong with him but I did not, though of course I knew that he had problems but he had me believing that he could not help them and his intention was good and that he was a good father and husband because he devoted his time to us.
Then the other brother started to treat him badly, never saying sorry and never helping him when he needed it. What was going on, I understand now after reading this book, was that his father knew that he would defend me and had a strong bond with me, and so set about breaking it by his aggression towards him whenever he agreed with me, but being extra nice towards him at other times. And setting his brother against him. Later, he did a turnabout and stopped the favouritism, but at the time he chose and not when I was begging him to stop. The result was I lost my son to him, and he never backed me up again even when his father was saying something outragious. It has been an eye opener to see this and see the deliberateness of his behaviour rather than the so called mental health problems and communication problems he pleads as an excuse.
Just wondering, but after describing his details at length here, do others think that I am describing narcissistic behaviour or perhaps psychopathy? I often wonder.
((((GFN))))
Mati
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Hi Mati:
So sorry to hear this. Do you mind speaking about it?
I guess not. My child was born with a number of health problems and lived for a few months. I never held her because she was hooked up to a lot of apparatus and I was not allowed (too dangerous for her). Her funeral was Christmas Eve. I know it's got to be worse when you have known a child for a number of years, as in your case, but the bottom line is...the death of a child is tragic and hard to recover from. No matter the circumstances.
...his father blatently favoured his younger brother.
This is very hurtful and damaging. I've seen it in my x's family and the results are awful. I will never understand how any parent can openly show favoritism or think that it is ok, in any way. I think this is a strong N trait....shows the parent could care less about how the other child/children feel or the harm being caused to them. No empathy for sure.
It has been an eye opener to see this and see the deliberateness of his behaviour rather than the so called mental health problems and communication problems he pleads as an excuse.
Conniving/driving wedges between people/deliberately trying to turn one against another.....these are all N behaviours....I think.
Thanks for the hug Mati. I hope things go a lot better for you from now on.
GFN
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Hi GFN
I feel ssooo much stronger today than I have felt for a while. Thanks to you all on here.
...the death of a child is tragic and hard to recover from. No matter the circumstances.
I am so sorry that you lost your baby. Yes you are right and every child that is lost is a tragedy and each in different ways. With your daughter I suppose that it must have hurt so bad that you never got to know her. I do not think that there is a scale. To lose a baby though must have been so terrible. I always felt so fiercely protective and could not let them out of my sight when young.
these are all N behaviours....I think
Thanks. Yes I have examined the scale and he passed on every point, but I would have thought that an n would not be planning things out so coldly, rather acting out of need. I don't know. This one drove me mad for a while but I gave up wondering. I do know that he is dangerous and highly manipulative. I had to speak to him today on the phone, and I was so in control of myself, like never before and feel so detached now. I know I have to forgive him and I am working on that one :(
Mati
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Hiya Mati:
I suppose that it must have hurt so bad that you never got to know her.
Yes, very much so. I think of her a lot. Wonder what she might be like now...at this age...at that age....try to picture her. That must sound weird but it's what I do sometimes. And I miss her very much at Christmas. It seems so unfair that she never had a chance to live and play and grow and learn...and be alive. Her short little life was nothing but suffering. And her father wouldn't go near her because he was afraid to attach himself to her and then she would die. Poor him eh? It's amazing how even a tiny baby knows their mother. I think it might be smell?? That must sound strange too but it just makes sense. She always responded to me....tried to make little noises.....turned her head toward me....fluttered her eyes and seems to really perk up (vital signs and all) when I was there. I feel guilty because I had to travel 50 miles to the hospital and had little money for even the gas then, so I couldn't visit every day. I remember they charged $10.00 just to park the car!!!
I always felt so fiercely protective and could not let them out of my sight when young.
I think the experience made me severely paranoid and overprotective of my next child for some time. Gradually....I talked myself out of this and tried to be reasonable. It was hard though. I was so afraid my next daughter would die too. Stupid thoughts that take over eh? It's was real work to reign them in and corral them!!! :roll:
...but I would have thought that an n would not be planning things out so coldly,
Oh I bet there are lot's of people here who can attest that that cold planning thingy is a real N behaviour, including me.
I do know that he is dangerous and highly manipulative. I had to speak to him today on the phone, and I was so in control of myself, like never before and feel so detached now.
Good for you Mati! 8)
I know I have to forgive him and I am working on that one :(
You'll be able to when you are ready. It's darn hard when you must continue to have contact with him....if he is still causing drama/chaos...or if he's in your face in any way. A little at a time...I guess. :?
Hope you have a lovely week end Mati! :D Keep posting.
GFN
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Here's what I have decided about Mother's Day. Since she gets a gift for being my mother, I get an even better gift on Mother's Day for being the daughter who had to mother HER. From here on out, I will always give myself a better gift on Mother's Day. So the gift I ordered for her....well, I ordered the upgrade version for myself. Ha!
New way to pamper myself--new tradition.
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OOPS! Meant to put that response on the Mother's Day response.
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Hi astofemme
No, it's me on the wrong thread! Sorry I seem to have highjacked this one and you had to go and start another. :oops:
Hi GFN
try to picture her. That must sound weird but it's what I do sometimes.
No that does not sound weird to me, just natural.
It seems so unfair that she never had a chance to live and play and grow and learn...and be alive
Yes, she had her life cut off cruelly short. I think that all bereaved parents feel this one. With my son it was that he did not get the chance of having a child of his own. The younger they are though, the greater this pain I would imagine.
Her short little life was nothing but suffering
As far as pain is concerned, I have come to the belief that God grants little ones relief from this when it reaches a certain level and have since heard that research has found that the brain of a young child will split off from pain.
And her father wouldn't go near her because he was afraid to attach himself to her and then she would die.
That must have been hard for you, not feeling you were sharing it together.
It's amazing how even a tiny baby knows their mother.
This blew me out with one of mine, as he stopped crying as soon as they handed him to me and he stopped crying immediately and looked deep in my eyes. He yelled his head off if anyone tried to take him again. It freaked the nurses out! It was during that pregnancy (out of four) that I had bonded already with him and had no negative feelings. Now his father has took him away :(
seems to really perk up (vital signs and all) when I was there
That is so lovely and makes me want to cry. In her short life, she made a connection and knew she was loved. That's the most important thing a parent can do and you did it, despite terrible circumstances and doing it on your own.
I feel guilty because I had to travel 50 miles to the hospital
It was not your fault that the stupid authorities did not provide somewhere near for sick newborns. That is so atrocious to take her away so far. I just feel so angry about that. Mothers of newborns are in a vulnerable state and need looking after and protecting, and given optimum oportunites to be with their babies. This is not your fault. And you had to drive yourself there as well :x GFN, think of another mother having to cope with all of this. Do you think she should feel guilty? You already had your partner passing the death sentence by expecting it rather than hope. (People must cope with these situations in their own way, but that made it harder on you) You are in my prayers. Have a good weekend too. ((((GFN))))
Mati
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Thankyou Mati, for the hug and for all you have written.
I have to run now but I will reread and post back when I can. Probably Monday some time.
Sorry, Astrofemme. :oops: For hijacking this thread.
How are you doing?
((((((all)))))
GFN
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GFN,Mati,
Mati, I'm just reading throught this thread, I wanted to let you know I'm in the middle of a divorce after 26 yrs myself. I have moved far away with our 12yr old and so busy with paper work I have not felt the total affects yet. It has only been 8weeks for me.
They think that they are stopping him from commiting suicide. That's where he had me for a long time
I just was wondering about this, there was a time when my N-H would make believe he was so depressed he might want to commit suicide.
For this reason I pushed the doctors to let me have a report to view and be assured he would not commit suicide. (This was before the laws were in place).
Some here may already know I have a physological evaluation of my H telling he is so self-absorbed being an N he is not suicidal. I used to be so fearful when he would play-up how depressed he was.
He is an N, he would never consider suicide.
He wants everyone to think he would because it pushes he's N-supply to a whole other level. According to this evaluation THEY believe the signs for suicide are not there. Im so glad I have this report to help me see his games of deception; I read the report and wish I understood it better.
When I first read it, found he would not likely hurt himself, I was ok with that, then put it away. I later read it again because things were getting worse with him. He is almost 50, I understand with age he will get more difficult and many health problems too.
I only learned about the N this December and found this web site to show how if affects people in daily life. The word it self means little, it is the horror and distruction to peoples lifes that need to be in the dictonary.
I will keep you and your family in my prayers OR
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GFN,
Sending my thoughts of sorrow about your baby.
I can't imagine what you went through.
I had a close friend who thought her son would not make it home because of a birth defect. Not one of her friends came to the hospital because they thought she would not want them to.
I went to the hospital to see her, so glad I did. She too had to drive 2 hrs away to see her son.
Her son survived, but her husband never once went to see the little boy in fear of bonding then losing him.
I don't see her anymore and often wonder about the relationship the father has with the son.
Myself being a premie in the hospital for 6weeks, back then (60's)the parents could not hold the babys. I often wonder if my problems with my own mother have something to do with this time in my life.
The fear of losing her twins, having to leave the hospital with out her children.
You are always so kind to post on my threads I wanted to let you know how sorry I am you went through this kind of loss. I don't even know what to say, Im sorry if the above is not the right thing to bring up, just wanted to let you know any feelings I might use to connect to your pain.
Take care OR
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Mati and GFN.
I have been following this thread and was a little scared to post as i don't know what its like to lose a child, and don't want to say something stupid or hurtful.
I just wanted to say that you'll get to see them again someday. And there won't be any disease or pain or distance between you. And no more tears either.
That's the hope I feel when Father's day rolls around every year. That I'll see him again someday, and he'll be young and strong, like he was when I was a kid, not old and sick.
mudpuppy
PS. My brother recently falsely accused me of never having visited my father when he was sick and dying and of somehow spitting on his grave. :evil: :evil: :evil: I couldn't even follow the convoluted reasoning on how I spit on his grave; but is there nothing these people won't say? To use your own father's death to score points in some petty argument?
It nauseated me. It still does. :x
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GFN,
I just now read the story of your daughter and wanted to say how profoundly sorry I am for your loss. I can only relate in a small way as I miscarried one baby at 3 months and another in the first month. But no matter how long you have "known" them, they are your child and precious to you and will always be a part of you.
I agree with Muddy that we will meet again in heaven and those tiny souls will blend with ours and we will be a family once again.
((((((((GFN))))))))))))
Brigid
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HI OR
It has only been 8weeks for me.
Take real care of yourself then. It takes time for it to process.
He is an N, he would never consider suicide.
It took me a long time to realise that mine would not, it was all an act and about control. His GP stopped taking it serious too.
The word it self means little, it is the horror and distruction to peoples lifes that need to be in the dictonary
I will keep you and your family in my prayers
Thanks OR.
Hi mud
i don't know what its like to lose a child, and don't want to say something stupid or hurtful
Don't worry, just having someone care is enough.
just wanted to say that you'll get to see them again someday
Yes, he was a believer and I look forward to seeing him. Thanks
My brother recently falsely accused me of never having visited my father when he was sick and dying and of somehow spitting on his grave. I couldn't even follow the convoluted reasoning on how I spit on his grave; but is there nothing these people won't say? To use your own father's death to score points in some petty argument?
It nauseated me. It still does.
That was a pretty cruel thing to say.
Mati
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Thankyou all for your kind words of condolence. I posted so Mati would know that I understand, somewhat, what it's like when your own child dies. I ended up with all of your empathy and caring words. Thankyou so much for that.
Mati wrote: And you had to drive yourself there as well GFN, think of another mother having to cope with all of this. Do you think she should feel guilty?
Yes, thankyou Mati, you are right. It's not my her fault (or my fault, in my case). It is frustrating and adds to one's sorrow. Even the money they charged for parking was a stress/worry/added to my difficulties. It wasn't/isn't right.
Sorry for your miscarriages, Brigid. I know those are devistating losses too. I'm so sorry that you had to go through all of that. Thankyou for sharing and caring about my loss.
You too, OR, for your thoughts of sorrow etc.
And Mudbrother.......you would never intentionally say something stupid or hurtful here. Thankyou for posting regardless of your fear. Your words are intelligent and helpful. We will all meet, including the wee souls, and what a joy it will be!!!
And your brother must be cloned from my family. His sick, cruel lies sound hauntingly familiar. :shock: Makes me want to hurl too!! Jerk!!
Double Jerk!!! He was probably voicing his own deepest fears....that no one will visit HIM when he is dying and that you will SPIT on his grave...when he's gone. :evil: He is too pathetic to know that he projects his fears so plainly and that you will be praying for his poor, wretched soul......because you're NOT like him!!! :D :D
Still...it's maddening :x how he seems to be getting away with this crap right now!! His day will come!! :x
GFN
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GFN,
He was probably voicing his own deepest fears....that no one will visit HIM when he is dying and that you will SPIT on his grave...when he's gone.
Funny you should say that. After a particularly fierce argument a few years back, he looked me in the eye and said "You probably feel sorry for me, don't you?"
I resisted the first thought that came into my head which was none too Christian, and said "yeah, I do feel sorry for you because someday you're going to die alone and unloved and no one is going to care when you're gone."
He just sat there, fish-faced. What could he say? Maybe reality broke through momentarily? As I recall that was the end of the conversation.
He is too pathetic to know that he projects his fears so plainly and that you will be praying for his poor, wretched soul......because you're NOT like him!!!
Yes I do pray for his poor wretched soul, and have asked others to as well. I hope I get extra credit for it. :wink:
Still...it's maddening how he seems to be getting away with this crap right now!!
He's just delaying the inevitable.
And Mudbrother.......you would never intentionally say something stupid or hurtful here.
Key word; intentionally. I don't want to hurt anyone unintentionally either.
If I step on your pinky toe with hobnailed boots either intentionally or accidentally, it still hurts the same. :?
Thanks for the kind words anyway, GFN.
You're a real treasure here. I sometimes wish I could PM you about certain subjects but you choose to be a 'guest for now' so I'll just tell you thanks for all the support, you give everyone here. A real Florence Nightingale. :D
mud
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Muddy:
I thank you for saying such kind, overly generous things to me. Truly....the FN thing is waaaaaaaay overboard.....quite a bit too much. I do appreciate your generosity though. Too, too kind.
If I step on your pinky toe with hobnailed boots either intentionally or accidentally, it still hurts the same.
Yes for sure! But in the first case, you walk away, laughing and pointing your finger....blaming me for being in your way, adding insult and more injury......but in the second....you might be inclined to stop, express your distress at your behaviour, appologize, offer to get a bandaid, or ice, stay with me in my pain, do all possible to lesson it.....and take responsibility for and help me recover from the harm you have caused.
Intention is key...if you ask me. It does not erase mistakes or bad behaviour but it does indicate character and either add fury to the fire, or help calm the seas, imo.
When I detect that someone's intention .....as evidenced by their continued behaviour.....and even their words......is to cause harm......I think and feel a whole lot of stuff that I don't think and feel....when it looks like their intention was never to do that/cause harm.
Wish I could tell you your brother's intentions were never to cause you harm, Mud, but by your descriptions of stuff.....I'm afraid I think opposite. And I can relate, in a big way too......just to let you know that you're not alone. :( :? :( :x :( :shock: :( :roll: :(
Wish there were more I could offer to help but there isn't. We just have to work through our thoughts and feelings about people/situations and pray for strength to keep their ways from taking hold in our souls, do you agree? That's my take anyway....because if I were to allow that.....allow their ways to take hold in my soul....those who wish to cause me harm....will have succeeded in their goal and I...am too darn stubborn to let them have that power. :D
I like that you pray for his wretched soul. It shows more generosity..but more so.....that his ways are not yours.((((((Mud))))).
GFN