Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: phillip on May 02, 2005, 04:01:50 AM
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Years ago my boss at work made a statement to me that I have never forgotten. He said, "Never trust a person that always needs to be right." I have come to realize that whenever I do this myself, I am merely attempting to create a stronger sense of self-esteem for myself. This is a safety issue. One may call it assertiveness, even aggressiveness, but the fact remains that it is generated from an internal lack in my sense of just being adequate. Unfortunately I have recognized that when I push my views at others in dogmatic fashion, not only do I not get the quick fix that I was unconsciously pursuing, but I actually isolate myself, because others do not enjoy being cajoled into compliance with my somewhat subjective demands. The bottom line is that forced compliance by another's demands strongly suggests a total lack of control by that person. A confidence level that is so low that absolutely no argument may be tolerated, by anyone. In the end, the only people left in such a person's life, would be those that are silent, with no opinions, no disagreements, no input. This appears to be the MO of a true narcissist, and points to the psychological neediness of the narcissist in general. Domination of all threats, real or imagined, and subsequent emotional isolation the end result. A very sad but understandable outcome. Just my thoughts. :idea:
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Um...yeah. That's how it works.
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Hello Phillip:
I have come to realize that whenever I do this myself, I am merely attempting to create a stronger sense of self-esteem for myself.
Well you certainly are brave to admit having done this! Good for you Phillip! (Every one else is perfect.....just kidding :D ).
I've never thought about that before...about how voicing a strong opinion might just be a way of enhancing/or maybe testing... self-esteem. If others agree.......well...isn't that nice. Things go along nicely and it feels pretty darn good. But if no one agrees, I feel (for at least a short time) wierid....far out in the field and I might wonder: "Am I nutty?", "Should I re-think this?", "oh-oh....I'm way off", or...."No way.....I'm sticking with this and it doesn't matter if others agree", depending on a number of factors, I suppose.
when I push my views at others in dogmatic fashion, not only do I not get the quick fix that I was unconsciously pursuing, but I actually isolate myself, because others do not enjoy being cajoled into compliance with my somewhat subjective demands.
For me.....I usually give it a couple good tries and quit after that. I wouldn't say I push my views dogmatically but I might restate them/reword them and see what happens. Or mention them at a later date, when it seems appropriate. Still......I think I understand what you're saying. When someone rejects your views, it's a bit of a blow to the ego, in a way, unless you tell yourself differently. If you are a person who really worries about what other people think of you, then this might be real tricky for you.
Do you think this is something you need help with Phillip, or is it just something you are interested in discussing?
Glad you're still here posting. :D
GFN
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I have been thinking about all of this because recently Wispery and I have had our own experiences with a n-female. As a result, I have drawn some conclusions concerning the subject. First of all, I do not believe that narcissists are exhibiting behaviors that are distinct from other people. The difference is in degree. For me narcissist is merely a word. Kinda like the devil, or evil. The word carries with it all kinds of connotations, but it is still a word.
The people we label as narcissists are people who operate within a very narrow safety zone, much more limited than most other people. They do not know how to adjust to the vagaries of normal interaction. This could be due to poor parenting, a damaged childhood, probably a plethora of influences. But, the result is that they can not maintain their psychological integrity unless their narrow boundaries are RIGID. Since most relationships involve a whole bunch of question marks where emotions are concerned, the narcissist not only needs but must DEMAND absolute control of all situations. This is how a safe reality is maintained for the narcissist.
The fact that this mode of operation does not work for the narcissist in terms of close emotional relationships is subordinate to the control of all possible threats to internal integrity.
I believe there is some of this in all of us. We are the center of our own universe. Sages have always said that no matter what we do, we do it for ourselves. Even in the case of sacrifices, we always derive something out of the experience that we must have. People that are labeled as narcissists differ from the rest of humanity because they make it difficult, if not impossible, to live with them normally.
I think this is why so many marriages fail. Because eventually many relationships will return to a point of each person not getting their needs met, within that relationship. And when needs overpower mutually, the relationship collapses.
Sometimes need is so irrational, so damaging. This is where decisions are not made. The person is on automatic pilot. Walking though sleeping within a trance. I think that the narcissist is in a deep trance. These are just my opinions and I wished to share them. Thanks for listening.
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I do not believe that narcissists are exhibiting behaviors that are distinct from other people.
I have to agree with you here. I have been pondering your first post all day, even discussed it with my T. Someone who is overly conscientiuos, for example, possesses the trait of needing to be right. This quality can also alienate these types of people from the "normal". Holding onto strong moral principles & values, perfectionism, afraid to make the wrong decision-all based on fear of hurting the ego somehow.
What sets the conscientious apart from the N would be the other aspects of the personality.
. "Never trust a person that always needs to be right."
(I would trust the overly conscientiuos, but probably not the N).
control of all situations. This is how a safe reality is maintained for the narcissist.
Control, is this not the basis of many personality disorders??Not to mention alcoholism, anxiety disorders, anorexia, etc....
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Motive is everything. In the debate of conscientious vs always being right, the issue would be motive. What propels one toward perfectionism? Is it a genuine desire to do and be one's best, because the person has chosen excellence as a way to best fulfill his life, or is it a hidden need to prove that he is not as unworthy as he may suspect that he is? A co-worker once shared with me the following: He said, "You know, perfectionism is NOT a virtue." It masks a weakness in self-regard. The bottomless well can not be filled with symbolic band-aids. It never ends, the struggle to be comfortable with oneself, until the individual goes within and KNOWS his heart. This is all about personal intimacy. A very dangerous place, for one that needs CONSTRUCTS. Some need more than others. And in a constantly changing reality, freedom of movement, mental and emotional, is a healthy thing. Options=well-being. My thoughts. Peace.
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Philip...I think you have started a very interesting thread but what is going on with you on a personal level to have raised the issue? And, you don't have to reply....Just curious. Bittles
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I have a chat board set up. And my friend invited a friend of her's to join us. After a period of time another male friend joined our board. The woman that was invited, began to attack the male friend on the board. At first we attempted to appease her, to keep the peace. Then she accused us of taking sides against her, because we would not support her position. Her animosity against us all for not agreeing with her began to take on huge proportions, eventually resulting in deletion of her posts because they were downright profane. She sees this as assertiveness, but it is some sort of acting out. She has also referenced her husband, as being non-confrontational and seems to have a low opinion of this quality in him. We tried for months to appease her, just to keep the peace, but eventually her attacks were causing people to vacate our chat board. This is really the first time I have had such an overt experience with a personality such as this and to this extent. It has left us both shaken. No matter what we did, we were wrong unless we supported her 100%. Eventually we had to support her victim, because even new people were seeing the conflict, and trying to figure her out. I learned alot under fire, I am afraid. I am still shaken by the absurdity of it all. This is why I felt it necessary to get it all out. It is helping me to organize it in my mind . Thanks for asking.
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It was a very difficult thing for us to see and experience. What he says, really happened. We were there for her in personal ways, to help and support her, and try to be a friend, what a friend is supposed to be, to be there for eachother. She melted down, a sight that was very sad for everyone to witness. She is gone, but in my heart, I hope that something jogs her memory and she remembers who her friends were, and comes back with a new perspective, only not abusing one of our friends anymore.
It was a hideous sight. I hope the worst is over, but you can never tell, with these things.
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phillip and wispery, this sounds a lot like the kind of thing that happens with borderline personality disorder. i don't know the woman of course, so i could be mistaken, but that escalating ferocious inability to let go of something is very much part of that disorder, and so is the framing of all disagreement as utter betrayal...
but there are folks here with much better understanding of this than i. i'll defer to their opinions.
let me just say i am so sorry that you experienced this, especially in the context of something constructive that you were trying to do. that has to have been incredibly upsetting and disheartening.
cool blue peace thoughts to both of you.
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Thank you so much for the kind words. I SAW HER HEART, once upon a time, so long ago now, about 6 or 7 years ago, we were brought together by theb hand of the unseen forces, and we became heart sisters, pulling eachother through a very difficult time. She is a beautiful person, but so lost, so hurt, so traumatized, so beaten up by life, so abused herself, that she is trapped inside, and can't find a way to help herself, so she is splattering all over the place.
God help me, I don't know how to help her.
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((((((((((Wispery))))))))))
crying for you and for her and for phillip too. :( :( :(
sometimes the only thing you can do is release and step back, but dear god it hurts, how it hurts. i'm so sorry.
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Something good has come out of it though. It has taught me NOT to go into my own acting out, when attacked. I have to admit, at times I was sorely tempted to deliver like for like. But then Wispery would always give me reason to pause, and gently ask me if I really wanted to go down that path with our emotions. It has been difficult to just let it go, but I did that time and time again. It was not until we were nearly going to close the board, that I decided it was time to do something for the greatest good. I still hope though. She is so troubled, and we never would have turned our backs on her.
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We haven't turned our backs on her. That is only an illusion, becuase we let her go.
Somewhere, somehow, some way, she will remember. She will come home, to her friends.
I have to believe that. Otherwise, she is lost, and I can't accept that. I don't know how to accept that. She is worth it.
She has to know, deep down, that we love her, and will remember.
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"Never trust a person that always needs to be right."
this is brilliant = im adding this to my Permanent Mom Advice right next to 'dont trust people who arent able to laugh at themselves'.
we should make a ten commandments for identifying unhealthy friends/associates.
Motive is everything. In the debate of conscientious vs always being right, the issue would be motive. What propels one toward perfectionism? Is it a genuine desire to do and be one's best, because the person has chosen excellence as a way to best fulfill his life, or is it a hidden need to prove that he is not as unworthy as he may suspect that he is? A co-worker once shared with me the following: He said, "You know, perfectionism is NOT a virtue." It masks a weakness in self-regard.
this is really interesting..... my thought is bottom line noone will ever do -everything- 'right' no matter what they say or do or who they are anyway.... it isnt possible...... even if 'right' were an absolute that could be defined which im not too sure it is.
noone and nothing is perfect, I dont believe it is possible or desirable... a 'perfect' life would be dull, boring, devoid, and pretty darn unsatisfying as well as being evolutionarily unproductive since a huge percentage of crucial inventions including genetic variation -could- be called 'mistakes'.
people who are focused on fear of some weird concept called 'wrong' and 'mistake' i find very tedious and limited in their thinking and NO fun to be around. there is no ultimate right and wrong in life.. the internet should prove that beyond any doubt.. there is an opinion for every person and theres a LOT of people. being 'wrong' is the compost in the garden of life :}} 8)
i feel people who are afraid to be 'wrong' are cutting themselves off from a lot of the richness of life. they cant learn. they cant grow. they cant see others. its a stunted way to live.
At first we attempted to appease her, to keep the peace. Then she accused us of taking sides against her, because we would not support her position. Her animosity against us all for not agreeing with her began to take on huge proportions, eventually resulting in deletion of her posts because they were downright profane. She sees this as assertiveness, but it is some sort of acting out.
true assertiveness respects others positions as much as ones own, even if one disagrees.
sorry you had to deal with that person, very interesting discussion.
anna
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Please trust me when I say that she has been through some horrific life experiences. This is how she has learned to survive it all, and there were times when her survival, both internally and physically was in jeopardy. My regret is in knowing that she had a genuine community with us, and support. Because we knew of her past, we were more likely to overlook her abrasive comments and challenges. She couldn't recognize it for what it was. To me that is the tragedy. Not knowing your friends from your tormentors. How does one survive this level of blindness? This is what bothers me the most.
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She has to know, deep down, that we love her, and will remember.
i can tell it was really hurtful. hope you didnt think i was making light.
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Not at all. I totally repsect this board and the people in it. It's been an eye opener for me. the people here are amazing.
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I believe I may have stepped in it this time. Now, because of what I just did, she will read this thread. I emailed her, saying I miss her, and linked this thread for her to read. There is no mention of her name, and no one here knows who she is. She is safe. (When you read this, know that you are safe here)
I believe that this is the right place. You are the people that can help her. I know it, because I found help here too.
I believe that the people here can help her, if she would agree to interact with you.
I now believe that I was brought to this place for a reason.
I am following my heart....putting myself in HER shoes, re-reading this thread like crasy, knowing now that she will read this.
YOU KNOW I LOVE YOU, MY HEART SISTER.
These are the people here, if anybody on the face of this planet can help.
Maybe the problem is me...and if it is, I want to find out. I trust that the people here will know what is up, real quick like.
It is not a challenge, it is a hopeful act on my part.
If she wants to tear me to pieces, so be it. But I love her, and I don't known what else to do but bring her here.
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Hi Phillip and wispery,
I missed having you around phillip. And I can't recall if wispery was here before, but welcome if not.
I hope your friend will give this board a try. There are a lot of wise and kind people here.
And everyone's ego seems really, really small here. Quite a revelation compared to the usual board and the rest of the world for that matter.
If she needs support and healing this is an oasis in an endless desert of anger and vituperation. 8)
mudpup
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Thank-you mudpup. I was not sure that inviting her here was going to be appreciated by the members of this board. But you and Wispery are correct. This place is absolutely unique. If there is any help for her on the internet, it is here. I would be really surprised though if she showed up here. It would not take her long to discover that this forum has little patience with tyranny of any sort. This board does not need to be protected. The grace and compassion present here stands on its own, and for that I am grateful and honored to be welcome here.
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I don't want to be a wet blanket, but you're inviting someone who spun out of control with profane posts, to come here? Did she ask for help? I'm not trying to put anyone down here but I am a bit concerned.
bunny
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Hi bunny. She did ask for help, metaphorically speaking. I am torn about whether I did the right thing or not...maybe she won't read this after all, if she hasn't already. If cooler heads can prevail, maybe a good conversation could ensue. She isn't always a ticking time bomb, she is amazingly bright and talented, and I just wanted her to know how torn we are over all of this. I just kept thinking, this is the place, that can help not only her, but me, too, and even Phillip, find a way to come to be friends again. If it isn't meant to be, somehow I will have to accept that.
:cry:
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Hi Wispery,
Okay, she didn't ask for help, however, you believe she needs help. May I ask what you'd like to see happen? A reconciliation?
bunny
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Bunny, Please don't put any emotional energy into this issue. She just answered Wispery by E-mail and there is no way she is going to open herself up here to objective scrutiny. She is playing the victim and casting us as villains. Her MO fits the cause of this forums existence; not its purpose.
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She said she didnt want to read this, she said she doesn't hang around with emotionally unstable people anymore, that she doesn't have time, and how could she ever trust me again after my betrayal of her. My betrayal of her consisted of me not agreeing with her, and taking sides with her against another friend who was there for me when I almost died once. That is a friend, and she expected me to join her in attacking him, he who was there and contributed to saving my life.
She doesn't want any part of this, so I guess the thread is moot, although, it has helped Phil and I both. Thank you for your gentleness with this issue.
~Wispery
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You are the people that can help her.
Oh, probably not :?
We can be helpful to people dealing with hurt from narcissists, or at least I've gotten help from the list for that.
We can't make anyone act better. Especially someone exhibiting borderline tendencies.
But if we could! How cool would that be! I have lots of folks I'd send here, too :)
How many of us have wanted to send our loved ones a book, or a website, so that they would read and understand. It's a really understandable instinct. But it doesn't do anything but make them really mad...
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She said she didnt want to read this, she said she doesn't hang around with emotionally unstable people anymore, that she doesn't have time, and how could she ever trust me again after my betrayal of her. My betrayal of her consisted of me not agreeing with her, and taking sides with her against another friend who was there for me when I almost died once. That is a friend, and she expected me to join her in attacking him, he who was there and contributed to saving my life.
She doesn't want any part of this, so I guess the thread is moot, although, it has helped Phil and I both. Thank you for your gentleness with this issue.
~Wispery
Hi Wispery,
Here is my feeling on it, let me know what you think. It sounds like she has pretty strong feelings about being unstable herself. She also wants to be 100% supported when she acts out. She wants to have tantrums and you will be a nice mommy who understands and tolerates it. The problem is that you aren't willing to go along with it (no reasonable person would). She doesn't know how to control herself and doesn't want to be asked to. I think your loving thoughts have moved her positively but she can't show it.
Hi Phillip, I put emotional energy into things that interest me. It's no trouble, I assure you.
bunny
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Vunil-You see clearly to the truth. Peaceful co-existence is a desire for most of us. But, you know the old adage, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink?" Wispery and I have decided one thing though. We never give up. We seem to have that in common. Of course, we could just be nuts. And we DO laugh about that alot. Peace.
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Hi guys,
At the risk of looking like a complete idiot, I kind of missed, somehow, that first post or two about Phillip's and wispery's friend when I said what a nice pleasant place this is and asked her to come on over.
I was kind of under the impression (through my own slipshod skimming) that she was a tad angry and looking for help and support. The comment on page two about nearly closing your own board didn't really register until I went back to page one just now.
Can I take back my invite? :oops:
I'm afraid after further review I'm with bunny on this one. No offense, but why would you want to bring someone so nutty she almost closed your own board to this one?
Your friend sounds like maybe a flamin' N or as Stormy said BPD. I don't know, but she's definitely got problems and it doesn't sound like 'voicelessness' is one of them. :?
I sure hope the issue has been mooted and turned down.
Note to self: read the whole thread before you post, block head. :oops: :roll:
mudpup
PS. Phillip and wispery, no offense intended. You are both very nice. Don't take this as a comment on you personally or you being on the board. I know you were just trying to help her. But it sounds like she needs a different kind of help than this board offers.
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I have to share a feeling with you folks. In plain terms, you all warm my heart. I thank-you all for being you.
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Mudpuppy-I am inclined to agree with you. I just have this silly notion that all issues can be settled with love and compassion. Yet, I am getting too old to be so naive. I just can't let it go though. Maybe it is just stubbornness. I will continue to assess my own boundaries. Turning the other cheek is a new experience for me and it is too early for me to clearly define what I am doing. I am learning as I go. Sorry for the drama.
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No problemo Phillipe,
Its hard to know what to do with someone like that.
mud
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K....one can always still hope though. :)
Thank you all for your support and wisdom.
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Phillip, Wispery. Just caught up with this thread. Interesting stuff, even when it comes down to getting this person to visit here (sounded dicey to me...like inviting a wolf to eat with the sheep).
Just a question: it's clear you love this person, but she is too damaged to appreciate it. And it's clear you don't want to give up on her. Why not?
What are you attached to? If you have tried with loving intention to be kind and good and set healthy boundaries with this person, do you know what motivates you to keep this going? (this hope, this idea that healing will happen if you care enough, or whatever the attachment is)
Is it guilt? Are you thinking you need to repair damage you caused?
I am a bit of a pain, I know, but I am learning to detach from my exN in a major way now, and those are questions I ask myself a lot.
In less spiritual and more visual terms, a simple thing that helps me is Steven Covey's imagery of the concentric circles of "concern" (larger, outer circle) and the inner circle of "influence". I try to stay in the inner circle of influence....what can I DO about a concern of mine.
If I am spending all my energy in the outer circle of concern, over which I have no influence, I am usually unhappy or stressed, and attached to something I cannot change. As a visual artist, this imagery really makes sense to me.
I know you two have a million coping tools, (most importantly, each other) but I figure I can always use another tool in the shed...
So along those lines....let it go, let it go, let it go.
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Mudpuppy-I am inclined to agree with you. I just have this silly notion that all issues can be settled with love and compassion. Yet, I am getting too old to be so naive. I just can't let it go though. Maybe it is just stubbornness. I will continue to assess my own boundaries. Turning the other cheek is a new experience for me and it is too early for me to clearly define what I am doing. I am learning as I go. Sorry for the drama.
Your compassion was: you set limits for everyone's own good including hers. If she wanted to reflect on the 'betrayal' dramas in her life, things would change. The real problem is: she won't reflect but will only react. This is all about her early childhood and not about you guys at all.
bunny
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Yes, she went through terrible traumas. Horrible to even contemplate. Put it this way, her case was famous and publicised. She had been dragged to hell and back, and has been abused all of her life.
I wish I could share more, but that would be getting too personal. Just to say, that the reason we found it so hard to let go, was because we saw her as a beautiful flower, not just a metaphor, but an expressive beauty, lead by her heart, striving for compassion.
Since I've known her for so long now, even though I've never met her in person, the things we shared and went through together would shatter the walls of this board to divulge.
I know we just have to let her go....and hope that she is alright.
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Wispery, I understand. You are a good soul. I pray she will know peace.
mum
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MUM-Read your pm. Thank you. I once read a sufi quote. We are all moving toward our destiny. The only choice we have is to walk forward into it with our eyes opened, or walk backwards with our eyes closed. We are on the same page. I suppose in the end, the destination does not matter, no attachment to outcomes. Only the journey, one foot in front of the other. Blessings and my heart to your niece and her mother.
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Yes, she went through terrible traumas. Horrible to even contemplate....... Just to say, that the reason we found it so hard to let go, was because we saw her as a beautiful flower, not just a metaphor, but an expressive beauty, lead by her heart, striving for compassion.
I know we just have to let her go....and hope that she is alright.
I just want to say, I can really understand your position of caring about someone like that and not knowing where to draw the line......... I want to tell you how its been with my daughters father, becuase i feel similarly about him. he is -not- an N, or a borderline, or anything, (im not sure if your friend is or not) but he -is- a very damaged person with a lot of issues, which is why we're not together.
he doesnt have a personality disorder in any way, hes a wonderful, talented, creative, thoughtful person with massive amounts of integrity, who i probably respect more than anyone else ive ever met; but he is =so= damaged, that he jsut doestn trust =anyone=, and for that reason he wont get any kind of help. still he struggles to live -without- taking out his emotions on others, which is a big reason why i respect him. but he is bipolar and he doesnt trust doctors enough to get medicine, which is another reason hes hard to deal with and another reason i respect him, for having the mental strength to survive being bipolar, without meds, beuase i know how incredibly tough that is.
so here is this person, that i respect so completely, but who is so unable to trust anyone who might possibly help him. ive known him for.... almost 13 years now..... there have been many times he has turned against me as though i were his enemy, becuase he was in so much pain. it really hurt and i just have to draw the line on that kind of behavior. i swore to myself i would always be loyal to him, becuase he made my pregnancy so wonderful and was there for me so many times in real life when the chips were down. BUT this -doesnt- mean accepting bad behavior.
there have been times i havent seen him for several years becuase he was behaving so badly and i did not want to be around it. he pulled himself together and we were friends again.
this person has huge amounts of anger becuase of things that have happened to him all his life and he has plenty of reason to feel that way..... i often dont know how to 'defuse' him when he gets that way, and have to just disengage. recently something GFN said really helped me in my dealing with him. (which i wanted to tell GFN actually :).)
last week the phone rang at 4 am, which is very unusual. it was this guy, who was in a very bad space. he was very upset and 'angry' about varoius things that happened that made him feel powerless and that he couldnt control and nobody likes to feel that way. he was talking about ripping up photographs and sounding very upset and i knew it was bad if he was calling at 4 am. i didnt know what to say but then i thought of what GFN recently taught me about anger being a secondary emotion.
so i said to my freind - 'i am sorry you are hurting'. i kept saying that over and over in a patient way, as he 'raged' at me. it wasnt really apparent how much good it did but a few days later he called me sounding really positive and saying he had gotten cable and was finally on the internet, which hes been working toward for awhile. it was a really positive outreaching move for him. he talked about getting work (hes disabled) and in general sounded really interested in being involved with life again, which surprised me a lot.
i was suprised that this happened beucase its very hard to defuse him sometimes when he gets like that.
so..... i know how sad it is when someone you really love is difficult and even self-destructive...... sometimes you have to disengage and let them walk their path.. but you can always be there for them if they will treat you (and themselves) with respect, and you can try to say to this woman, 'i am sorry you are hurting'. if she is capable of responding, she may respond. if she cant even respond to something like that - maybe she has a personality disorder and you will need to disengage even more. you can only do so much for someone no matter how cool they are.
i just felt like tossing that out becuase i know it really hurts to see someone beautiful who is trapped in themselves like that. sometimes bottom line, you have to step back and leave it to them. if they dont reach back.. that has to be their choice...
take care :}/
Anna
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Yes, she went through terrible traumas. Horrible to even contemplate....... Just to say, that the reason we found it so hard to let go, was because we saw her as a beautiful flower, not just a metaphor, but an expressive beauty, lead by her heart, striving for compassion.
I know we just have to let her go....and hope that she is alright.
I just want to say, I can really understand your position of caring about someone like that and not knowing where to draw the line......... I want to tell you how its been with my daughters father, becuase i feel similarly about him. he is -not- an N, or a borderline, or anything, (im not sure if your friend is or not) but he -is- a very damaged person with a lot of issues, which is why we're not together.
he doesnt have a personality disorder in any way, hes a wonderful, talented, creative, thoughtful person with massive amounts of integrity, who i probably respect more than anyone else ive ever met; but he is =so= damaged, that he jsut doestn trust =anyone=, and for that reason he wont get any kind of help. still he struggles to live -without- taking out his emotions on others, which is a big reason why i respect him. but he is bipolar and he doesnt trust doctors enough to get medicine, which is another reason hes hard to deal with and another reason i respect him, for having the mental strength to survive being bipolar, without meds, beuase i know how incredibly tough that is.
so here is this person, that i respect so completely, but who is so unable to trust anyone who might possibly help him. ive known him for.... almost 13 years now..... there have been many times he has turned against me as though i were his enemy, becuase he was in so much pain. it really hurt and i just have to draw the line on that kind of behavior. i swore to myself i would always be loyal to him, becuase he made my pregnancy so wonderful and was there for me so many times in real life when the chips were down. BUT this -doesnt- mean accepting bad behavior.
there have been times i havent seen him for several years becuase he was behaving so badly and i did not want to be around it. he pulled himself together and we were friends again.
this person has huge amounts of anger becuase of things that have happened to him all his life and he has plenty of reason to feel that way..... i often dont know how to 'defuse' him when he gets that way, and have to just disengage. recently something GFN said really helped me in my dealing with him. (which i wanted to tell GFN actually :).)
last week the phone rang at 4 am, which is very unusual. it was this guy, who was in a very bad space. he was very upset and 'angry' about varoius things that happened that made him feel powerless and that he couldnt control and nobody likes to feel that way. he was talking about ripping up photographs and sounding very upset and i knew it was bad if he was calling at 4 am. i didnt know what to say but then i thought of what GFN recently taught me about anger being a secondary emotion.
so i said to my freind - 'i am sorry you are hurting'. i kept saying that over and over in a patient way, as he 'raged' at me. it wasnt really apparent how much good it did but a few days later he called me sounding really positive and saying he had gotten cable and was finally on the internet, which hes been working toward for awhile. it was a really positive outreaching move for him. he talked about getting work (hes disabled) and in general sounded really interested in being involved with life again, which surprised me a lot.
i was suprised that this happened beucase its very hard to defuse him sometimes when he gets like that.
so..... i know how sad it is when someone you really love is difficult and even self-destructive...... sometimes you have to disengage and let them walk their path.. but you can always be there for them if they will treat you (and themselves) with respect, and you can try to say to this woman, 'i am sorry you are hurting'. if she is capable of responding, she may respond. if she cant even respond to something like that - maybe she has a personality disorder and you will need to disengage even more. you can only do so much for someone no matter how cool they are.
i just felt like tossing that out becuase i know it really hurts to see someone beautiful who is trapped in themselves like that. sometimes bottom line, you have to step back and leave it to them. if they dont reach back.. that has to be their choice...
take care :}/
Anna
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anna,
I think you've hit the nail on the head. Thanks. :)
bunny
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Phillip:
Thank you for your insightful remarks. They were very helpful to me.
Patz