Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Lobo on May 05, 2005, 01:30:46 PM
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Hello, just found this site, (by accident?) It seems to have gathered alot of voices entangled in the narscisistic response to early starvation,physical or emotional.
My own personal reponse was to create an illusionary self that couldn't be touched, however it took so much energy to maintain that balloon I finally ran out of rage and anger (the steam that kept the engine running).
Currently I've been thoroughly enjoying "bucketing the muck". Which goes like this. Ah, there's a reaction. Ah, there's the emotion it comes from. Ah, there's the root. Hello root,you're a part of me, welcome aboard.
I've titled this topic "the Wolf" because in my elder group of men, the topic of sons who are in their 20's 30's and 40's who are highly educated, brilliant, some addicted (who will throw the first stone?) some not, and yet none of them can maintain a flow in life. There is some lack of force to propel them through the standard Hero journey. Rereading Puer Aeternis, I found a description that struck a deep chord, and something ressonated with me in association with these "resentfull sons".
So here's how von Franz talks about this "wolf":
Jung calls it a drive beyond sex and power.
The wolf stands for a cold, hidden resentment.
It results from a child being starved or deprived of love psychologically or physically.
Most people who had a very unhappy childhood (everyone?) have something like this at the bottom of their souls. It almost never comes up, it is a last resort, it is totally unreasonable.
It is something absolutely frozen and cold. A form of petrified rage. It is behind the demand for more and more and more, "I am owed everything."
I know this is a part of me, I am reminded of the hungry ghost with the big body and needle mouth, I can deny it and say I am not that or accept it as a part of me and see the other side of it which is probably quite beautiful, Any wolves out there?
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Most of the Children of Narcissistic parents are the exact opposite to what you have explained.
I grew up to believe I was owed NOTHING, and believed I WAS NOTHING.
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I am more into the object relations thinking which is that each person has a lot of primitive stuff deep down which comes up in times of stress. I don't know about the wolf or cold hidden resentment. I think it's even more primal than that.
Anyway in your group do you ever talk about how your sons got that way?
bunny
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Bunny,
Of course our sons are partially products of us, and guilt and shame about it is always our first reaction, after that comes blame of parents, then comes recognizing the blessings from our parents for modeling either right or wrong behavior (we see both as blessings).Recognizing that each of us chose specific events in our lives to react to, and that each of those reactions could result in more than one way of reacting (the abandoned one can either be the victim or the future abandoner) we recognize the unique experiences of our sons and daughters journeys, then we see ourselves a part of a larger cycle of which the best we can hope for is new ahas about ourselves and thus be able to see our sons and ourselves more compassionately. But guilt shame and blame always seems to be a thoroughly relished topic.
thanks for the reponse.
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I know the being owed nothing feeling, actually not even the space to exist. I would guess it is the flip side of the I'm owed everything, which draws us and them together, but I'm wondering about that core of rage produced by that feeling. What does it look like out here? What does it smell like? What color is it? Is it the ultimate "I AM". The deepest voice?
I know when it comes out I feel purified, but it comes out negatively in my experience. How do I transform it into love? If it is that primal it could be the soul root of my own voice, I'm just exploring here, thanks for listening.
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But guilt shame and blame always seems to be a thoroughly relished topic.
It seemed in your first post that you were noting the failures of your sons. And I wondered how much responsibility the parents were taking. Not blame, responsibility.
bunny
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Bunny,
Mostly it's about seeing that there are no failures in our sons, that in the end we are all sons and noting that something different is showing up and our responsibility is to look at it, not judge it.
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OK,
Sticking my toe in where I probably shouldn't.......
.......I'm absolutely clueless about what you are saying, Lobo.
Do you think you are an N?
Or do you think you are the victim of an N?
Or do you think you are both or neither?
Or are your sons Ns and you're not or vice versa or what?
Would it be possible to state what you are saying in, ummm, more definitive, cogent terms? So that I might understand if you consider yourself an N.
Cause if you do I'll quit wasting my time reading this thread.
If you don't, well at least I'll know what the h#%L you're talking about :?
mudpup
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Lobo:
is there some reason that you use "we" in your belief statements?
Just wondering. My ex uses "we" to describe "his" parenting decisions, but it just means my children's stepmonster.
I do believe WE are all on different paths of the same journey, is that what you mean? Or is it "we" in the religious sense (for example, someone saying :"as Christians, 'we' believe........."etc)
I dated a guy once who was in a men's group and he was dealing with a lot of childhood issues with that group. Is this similar?
I am frequently confused, so don't mind me, but I am finding each of your posts progressively difficult to understand...but I might be fuddleminded.
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Hello Lobo:
My own personal reponse was to create an illusionary self that couldn't be touched, however it took so much energy to maintain that balloon I finally ran out of rage and anger (the steam that kept the engine running).
Was this like an out of body experience or a split in personality? Are you saying you had an angry, untouchable self only, or was it in addition to your regular self?
The wolf stands for a cold, hidden resentment.
It results from a child being starved or deprived of love psychologically or physically.
Most people who had a very unhappy childhood (everyone?) have something like this at the bottom of their souls. It almost never comes up, it is a last resort, it is totally unreasonable.
It is something absolutely frozen and cold. A form of petrified rage. It is behind the demand for more and more and more, "I am owed everything."
This is very deep and dark isn't it? I think I have an idea of what you might mean.....that all of us who have been abused, somewhere, deep and dark inside of us.....there is still a rage that is frozen in place. I don't like to admit that that is possible but I suppose it's possible. If so, I am not aware of it. It would be a forgotten memory, I guess. :?
I don't get the "I'm owed everything" part at all though, unless you mean that there is resentment there, with that rage, that says I am owed love, respect, kindness, safety, warmth, gentleness, etc from my parents because that is what parents are supposed to be/do. Again, if so, I am not aware of this resentment, but others may be.
I can deny it and say I am not that or accept it as a part of me and see the other side of it which is probably quite beautiful,...
I can admit that this might be a part of me that I haven't noticed but I fail to see any possible beauty on any side of it. It would be very ugly, in that case and if it's there, I hope it stays there, unless some nutbar tries to abuse me, in a life or death situation, and in that case, I hope it rises to surface and scares the tar outta that nutbar. :evil:
Recognizing that each of us chose specific events in our lives to react to, and that each of those reactions could result in more than one way of reacting (the abandoned one can either be the victim or the future abandoner...
I think, as an abused child, I had no choice but to react because I was immature. It's hard to ignor being abused and I didn't choose those events.
But guilt shame and blame always seems to be a thoroughly relished topic.
I don't like your choice of words here......"relished"??? People who have been abused "relish" talking about the topics guilt, shame and blame???
Are you really serious??? :shock: Maybe you didn't mean it that way?
I'm wondering about that core of rage produced by that feeling....... but it comes out negatively in my experience. How do I transform it into love?
If you really believe that there is a deep, dark core of rage at the root of your soul, I suggest you do your best to release it, in ways that will not harm others. It doesn't sound like a good thing to be carrying around. If it comes out at the wrong times, toward the wrong people, in the wrong circumstances, I can easily understand your concern and your desire to change it. However, I'm not sure we can change rage into love but I do believe we can rid ourselves of anger and do our best to focus on loving, rather than carting our rage around and letting little bits of it out toward those who do not deserve it.
Best of luck to you. :D
GFN
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Hey everybody,
Wow, it was all so clear to me when I wrote it.
Some answers (I think): A-I twisted myself into pretzels to be what I thought I was supposed to be in order to be acceptable. I had no other concept of self. If I didn't have to act I was in a state that felt like nothingness. I would say it was split. B- I don't ressonate with the N experience either being one or being narcsed. C- The men's group is an elder group which means most of our buttons have been worn pretty thin and most things are taken softly, and one of the primary rules is to make "I" statements, with the understanding that every statement I make is filtered through my own personal lens of perception.
I believe I clouded my original intent here by mentioning the men's group.Let me try again.
I am not looking for support or clarification of my feeling. I may have misinterpeted the intention of this discussion board, when I read the articles on the website I thought, "yes I have felt voiceless for most of my life and I would like to discuss voice." What is it ? Where do I find it inside of me? When I read the "wolf" description something in me connected with knowing that feeling and it felt connected to voice. I have always thought of my voice being in my throat and to feel it connected to something so deep inside was a suprise to me. I am not interested in identifying why I felt forced to hide it. I am more interested in finding where it is hidden and if it is hidden behind this "petrified rage" then The rage has protected something precious to me and I can see the rage as something that is beautiful.
So, I have a feeling that my "original" voice is connected somehow to this wolf thing that says I deserve to be here just the way I am. Of course that cannot be acceptable in the world and my primal rage is born. My question is: Does this ring any bells for anybody else? Where do you experience it in your body? How is it expressed in your life?
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What happened in your life that made you feel you had to "act" or not exist?
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So, I have a feeling that my "original" voice is connected somehow to this wolf thing that says I deserve to be here just the way I am. Of course that cannot be acceptable in the world and my primal rage is born. My question is: Does this ring any bells for anybody else? Where do you experience it in your body? How is it expressed in your life?
The closest way I can relate to this is when I have temper tantrums. I want to be an infant again, and demand whatever I want, in a rage, right now. I want to scream and yell and act like a baby because that was stifled at the time when it was appropriate. And I accept that in a middle-aged woman, temper tantrums and infantile behavior aren't going to work and will only upset myself and others, and damage relationships. So my goal is to manage the rage and take it to a safe place (therapy). I'm doubt this is what you want to hear but that's my reaction.
bunny
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The wolf stands for a cold, hidden resentment.
It results from a child being starved or deprived of love psychologically or physically.
Most people who had a very unhappy childhood (everyone?) have something like this at the bottom of their souls. It almost never comes up, it is a last resort, it is totally unreasonable.
It is something absolutely frozen and cold. A form of petrified rage. It is behind the demand for more and more and more, "I am owed everything."
Lobo, what you describe above sounds to me like an entitlement monster. The wolf image might appear needy and yet strong, but this simply glamorises what bunny has talked about above: an infant’s temper tantrum. Not so much wolf as the enraged impotence of the totally powerless. Every baby deserves to live and be loved just for existing. If we weren’t given that secure sense of self as babies, we have to discover it and nourish it as adults. We exist therefore we have a right to exist. But nothing more unfortunately!
Not everyone had an unhappy childhood to the extent that some of us here did. If you feel that you do have this need, then you deserve to treat yourself kindly and generously with love and understanding. I don’t think everyone has this at the bottom of their souls. Those of us who are unfortunate enough to have such an unfulfilled basic need have to take responsibility for our own mental health.
I have experienced the temper tantrums, I have thought that life owes me and I have found those thoughts and feelings to be incredibly destructive, absolutely useless to the life of a thinking human being.
I think the other side of this, that which is probably quite beautiful, is acknowledging that behind the frozen and cold appearance is a howling, needy, utterly vulnerable sad soul. The beauty exists in bearing that vulnerability and discovering that it is something we share we others. By relating to others and allowing them to really see our souls we discover the beauty behind suffering. Do you know what I mean? What do you think?
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Lobo,
Thank you for clarifing your earlier posts. :?
In your first post you wrote,
Any wolves out there?
No. Not here.
In my experience, everyone here is a lamb. Lambs are soft, pleasant, peaceful creatures. They are also frequently eaten by wolves. Most people here have already been maimed by a wolf or two.
Perhaps with a little more investigating you could find a forum which is looking to free the inner wolf.
I wish you luck in your search; Lord knows we have a real shortage of two legged wolves in the world. :roll:
mudpup
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Thanks,
I didn't think I was looking for anything personally, but I get it.
Bear with me, I translate most feeling things into chakra terminology because it helps me with inner geometry or geography if you will.
Bunny you talked about temper tantrums and I said, yes that's what it looks like in the belly the power place, but that's not it.
Portia, you described it perfectly in your last paragraph (if I knew how to pull quotes in here I would have pulled it in here). That is how I want to tranform it in my heart space.
What I get here is that I stayed "retarded"in transforming this primary impulse into temper tantrums etc. When the time to work this stuff out in its natural unfolding process , I got stuck with the original big form.
When I was a teen, it looked like this. In social situations, I was painfully aware that I had nothing to say but would silently demand my right to be included in the group. There were no words and there was a seething inner stubbornness that must have leaked out through my acquiescent outer demeanor.
I'm almost afraid to ask what does it look like in the 2nd chakra, the emotional, sexual place. Is the transforming process different for men and women? Will seeing all this help me loosen the "voice pipes"?
Your thoughtful responses seem to be doing that already.
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Lobo...First of all, apologetically, I am not in a good mood today. Secondly, your symbolic use of the word wolf is entirely inaccurate. I have worked with them and know. Wolves do not express rage in any way. Thirdly, I can't understand what you mean if you have to use "chakra" terminology to describe it. There's just a bit too much parsing going on. I don't know chakra...I do know actual experiences. If you have to couch your questions behind your favored philosophy, then I think you need to know that I, at least, cannot understand them and cannot address them which is the purpose of being on this board is about (at least to me). For me, it takes a bit of bravery and humility to be able to talk to other people about our real life experiences. Humility is the more important. I would really like to help but I just don't understand what you want....sorry! I get a very uncomfortable feeling reading your posts that you are trying to rationalize your rage. in the guise of trying to "describe" them...is that true?
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What I get here is that I stayed "retarded"in transforming this primary impulse into temper tantrums etc. When the time to work this stuff out in its natural unfolding process , I got stuck with the original big form.
Primary impulses are raw affect unmitigated by social conventions or empathy for others. It's infantile, raw need. There is no time, no space, no transforming. Just the affect in the present moment.
When I was a teen, it looked like this. In social situations, I was painfully aware that I had nothing to say but would silently demand my right to be included in the group. There were no words and there was a seething inner stubbornness that must have leaked out through my acquiescent outer demeanor.
Yes it probably did leak out. Good perception.
I'm almost afraid to ask what does it look like in the 2nd chakra, the emotional, sexual place. Is the transforming process different for men and women? Will seeing all this help me loosen the "voice pipes"?
Your thoughtful responses seem to be doing that already.
I've read this 3 times and am fairly baffled. Can you reword it?
bunny
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hey there, i have to agree im havng a slightly tough time understanding what you are asking for exactly...... i also think that any exploration of why we have trouble expressing our 'voice' must of necessity include some exploration of whatever it was that took that voice away or suppressed it in the first place, i think it will be difficult to explore voiceleness without trying to understand what it was that took our voice, becuase voicelessness is not a natural condition to have.
im mainly writing though to agree with dogbittles and share a quote from a book that i love very much, which is called 'women who run with the wolves' by clarissa estes phd.
this book is for women, but may easily have some interest for men as well:
she says:
"the title of this book, (women who run with the wolves - myths and stories of the wild woman archetype) came from my study of wildlife biology, wolves in particular. the studies of the wolves canis lupus and canis rufus are like the history of women, regarding both their spiritedness and their travails.
"... healthy wolves and healthy women share certain psychic characteristics: keen sensing, playful spirit, and a heightened capacity for devotion. wolves and women are relational by nature, inquiring, possessed of great endurance and strength. they are deeply intuitive, intensely concerned with their young, thier mate and their pack. they are experienced in adapting to constantly changing circumstances; they are fierce and stalwart and very brave.
"... so, the word 'wild' here is not used in its modern pejorative sense, meaning out of control, but in its original sense, which means to live a natural life, one in which the criatura, creature, has healthy boundaries.
"... so, in order to apply a good medicine to the hurt parts of the wildish psyche... one has to name the disarrays of the psyche accurately... A healthy woman is much like a wolf: robust, chock-full, strong life force, life giving, territorially aware, inventive, loyal, roving..... the wild nature has vast integrity to it."
this is what i think of when i think of wolves myself. also i think that anything cold and frozen in the center of ones psyche strikes me as being emotional scar of some sort..... as healthy uninujured psyche is flexible and warm. if there is somethig there that is cold and frozen that to me is representative of some injury, id be interested to find out what the injury was, and then working to soften the scar, or work around it, to have better emotional functioning...
jmo
Anna
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Bunny, the place of no space no time no transforming sounds like the place I thought was real, when in fact the acting I thought I was doing was real life. That will take some absorbing. Rereading my question about second chakra and Dogbits comments, it sounds like claptrap to me too.
Anna thanks for that description of a wolf, That sounds so whole. I would hope to be able to experience that feeling.
Mudpup. If this is a safe healing container for people who have been hurt to the Nth degree, beyond my infantile degree of comprehension, and I am taking attention away from those who need that attention to heal, then I trust your antenna for such things. I withdraw from this forum, with apologies and thanks.
namaste