Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board

Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Lara on May 07, 2005, 12:57:42 PM

Title: What is the purpose?
Post by: Lara on May 07, 2005, 12:57:42 PM
Hi Everyone,
A few thoughts, and if anyone can help me process them, it would be great.
My ex came into my life nearly six years ago, from nowhere. Sixteen months ago, except for a few very short messages to me, he left it again.
What was the purpose of this happening? Does there have to be a purpose?
It just seems so random.
Was the purpose of the r/ship for me to support him, emotionally and financially, at a time in his life when he was otherwise alone, to be there for him through awful (though possibly self-inflicted ) troubles? BUT, if that was the purpose, why would it also be part of the deal, that I should have to spend a long time trying to get over it, and feeling wounded?

Or was the purpose of the r/ship, to share some very happy times,which we certainly did in the early days, to have some wonderful memories?BUT,it is the memory of the happy times which haunt me now, so that I wish they had never happened.

So, why? Is there a reason in the scheme of things, why somebody comes into your life, messes you up, and walks out again?
Any thoughts appreciated!

Sincerely,
Lara.
Title: Re: What is the purpose?
Post by: Anonymous on May 07, 2005, 01:47:49 PM
Hi Lara,

The purpose of the relationship is to learn about yourself. He was just a catalyst. The reason he came into your life was unfinished business from your childhood. Otherwise you would have seen his red flags and not gotten involved. You wished to rescue someone. It means you weren't rescued as a child. He is just a loser who caused a mess and left. The reason you aren't over him, is that the unfinished business is still there. It's about your parents, not him. That is the purpose, to show you that there is some internal work to be done. When you've worked on this stuff, he will only be a shadowy memory. Because it's not about him. It's about your life and how you want to live from now on.

bunny
Title: DOTH Thou consider reincarnation as explanation4purpose of
Post by: JUSTME on May 07, 2005, 01:51:16 PM
DOTH Thou consider reincarnation as explanation4purpose of
some events...
by the by
i think reincarnation is compatible with christianity
and that a key to the bible is how in revelation
chapter 1 it says
jesus christ is the first begotten of the dead....
Title: What is the purpose?
Post by: Layla as guest on May 07, 2005, 02:25:04 PM
Justme,

That is a very interesting thought on reincarnation and christianity.  I've never thought of it that way before. :roll:

Layla
Title: What is the purpose?
Post by: Brigid on May 07, 2005, 03:58:47 PM
Lara,

I would have quoted Bunny, but I would have needed to quote the whole thing so why bother.  She is absolutely, positively right on and I believe it applies to each and every one of us who has chosen a relationship with a N personality.

This is exactly what I am doing in therapy now and it is really crappy, but as I saw myself edging toward making some of the same mistakes again (at least I have evolved to that point), I knew that the stuff down deep is still haunting me and must be healed.

If you can, find a way to get to that deep seeded pain and do the work to heal from it.

((((((Lara)))))))

Brigid
Title: What is the purpose?
Post by: Jaded911 on May 07, 2005, 04:56:55 PM
I ask myself the same question Lara.  I have often said the biggest bunch of bullchit is the deal "it is better to have loved and lost to have never loved at all."  I had an episode recently with my ex N and it has my head back into a dizzy spin.

I would hope that the ex N meant some of what they said to us.  If they did not then why the hell can't we realize this and move the heck on like they obviously have?

I feel like his punching bag at times and I just hope that one day this will all just be one big bad memory.
Title: What is the purpose?
Post by: mum on May 07, 2005, 05:56:06 PM
Bunny did it again, Lara.  Nail on the head.  It's about you and your life.  It's all learning.  You choose experiences, or experiences choose you, to show you things about yourself.  
Pain has purpose: to show us how to be happy. Love  and happiness are our purpose.  I, too, once thought love equalled pain, but that is drama and total bull.  Love is the opposite of fear.  Pain and fear are brothers. Unavoidable for humans, but they as a gift for us to grow from....kind of like animal feces for a garden....
it stinks for a while, but what beautiful bounty if we treat it right.
Title: What is the purpose?
Post by: Lara on May 08, 2005, 10:21:13 AM
Thanks so much everyone for your understanding and your very helpful ideas. (Jaded, I have to say that that that cliche about 'Better to have loved and lost' has often annoyed me recently as well! When the feelings are so intense and destructive I think it's totally untrue.)I'm sorry that your recent contact with your ex has left you in renewed pain.I hope that for both of us, these people will be as you said, just a bad memory.

One thought that has sometimes struck me is that when i met my now ex-boyfriend, I fell in love with my father! To explain: my father died several years before I met my ex, and, confusingly, my ex is several years younger than me, but they did have several of the same personality traits.As I've said here before, I felt loved and cherished during my childhood...I was very fortunate. My father was a very kind, unselfish person, but suffered from occasional depression.

Is it possible that in meeting my ex, and in staying with him for so long, ignoring all the 'STOP!' signs and throwing away all common sense, that I was trying to get my father back? And is it possible that this happened despite the fact that as it turned out my ex did not have my interests at heart,whereas my father had done? Is this why it's so hard to 'get over' this r/ship?
Alternatively,is it not just possible that my ex saw in me a soft touch, a kind, caring person who could give him what he needed at that time? And, that in my situation, faced with a handsome, charming, intelligent man who appeared to find them fascinating, anyone would have fallen as hard as I did?

I think you are right;I have to look at my part in all this.From the moment I met this guy, I started to act really crazy, and to throw all caution to the wind. I need to think about why I still feel so linked to him, despite the lack of contact. I feel proud and strong that in the end I stopped contact with him and that I have maintained  no contact despite his messages.I know that I am stronger in my other r/ships now as well.BUT I have had enough of this now;I want to shut the door on this r/ship.To quote dear Bunny,I know how I want to live from now on.IF any of my ideas above are feasible, how can that realisation set me free?

I hope I haven't rambled too much here! I'm trying really hard to see the links in the chain. Yes it was me, not him;or was it that him and I made a deadly combination?

Thanks so much again,
Very sincerely,
Lara.
Title: What is the purpose?
Post by: bunny as guest on May 08, 2005, 12:27:41 PM
Quote from: Lara
Is it possible that in meeting my ex, and in staying with him for so long, ignoring all the 'STOP!' signs and throwing away all common sense, that I was trying to get my father back?


Yes it is possible.

Quote
And is it possible that this happened despite the fact that as it turned out my ex did not have my interests at heart,whereas my father had done? Is this why it's so hard to 'get over' this r/ship?


The ex only superficially resembles your father. So trying to recapture dad's love won't work with him. And in an addictive relationship, we keep trying until we hit rock bottom or until we choose to surrender to reality.


Quote
Alternatively,is it not just possible that my ex saw in me a soft touch, a kind, caring person who could give him what he needed at that time? And, that in my situation, faced with a handsome, charming, intelligent man who appeared to find them fascinating, anyone would have fallen as hard as I did?


There are many reasons for two people to get together.


Quote
I need to think about why I still feel so linked to him, despite the lack of contact.


This is what I think you've figured out already: You're longing for something very badly, I think it's from when you were very young and I think it's about your father's depression. The ex dovetails with these longings and they have been transferred onto him, since it seems they could potentially be fulfilled through him. Another part of you (the part grounded in reality) knows he can't fulfill any of this. He isn't the solution.


Quote
IF any of my ideas above are feasible, how can that realisation set me free?


Keep reminding yourself that the feelings are about your past, not about him. It's about you as a baby wanting something and not getting it because your father was depressed. Keep separating the ex from the past. I think his having his own baby and advertising it to you, was a huge trigger. You unconsciously want to be the baby, and, more consciously, want him to be the father of your baby. On an objective level, it was extremely cruel and insensitive of him. On an unconscious level, it triggered a lot of childhood yearnings that may not even have words. Anyway just keep separating the ex from the childhood past.

The purpose of the relationship, for you, is a learning experience. The relationship itself was toxic for him and for you. People go through as many toxic relationships as it takes for them to learn about toxicity and how to notice it and choose to avoid it. Some people do notice it and choose to get involved anyway. So it's kind of a two-step process. First, noticing red flags even if you choose to keep going; and more advanced, noticing red flags and choosing to walk away even if the situation is enticing and seductive. So it takes a while to get to that place. That's the learning curve.

{{ Lara }}

bunny
Title: What is the purpose?
Post by: Lara on May 08, 2005, 05:24:05 PM
Bunny, thank you so much for the encouragement and the kindness in your reply, and also for the hugs! I am thinking over everything you said, and I will no doubt be writing reams back to you in the next few days, when I have put all these thoughts and reactions into some kind of order.

A million thanks;your presence on this board is such a blessing!

Sincerely,
Lara.
Title: Re: DOTH Thou consider reincarnation as explanation4purpose
Post by: October on May 08, 2005, 05:53:05 PM
Quote from: JUSTME
DOTH Thou consider reincarnation as explanation4purpose of
some events...
by the by
i think reincarnation is compatible with christianity
and that a key to the bible is how in revelation
chapter 1 it says
jesus christ is the first begotten of the dead....




Not sure what you are saying, I am afraid.  Perhaps you would care to explain??
Title: What is the purpose?
Post by: New Day on May 08, 2005, 07:51:02 PM
Dear Lara,

Just another POV here, a more simplistic one perhaps, and not as deeply psychological.  

Quote
What was the purpose of this happening? Does there have to be a purpose?
It just seems so random


The purpose is up to you.  You are the person who gets to decide if there was a higher purpose to meeting and being with this man, and you get to choose the lesson you learned, if you learned anything.  You, not us, decide.  Have you ever seen that essay on the internet about how some people come into our lives for a season, a reason, or a lifetime?  Some people are only meant to be in our lives for a certain amount of time, and we don't always get to decide the length of time.   Think of kids you knew in grade school that you no longer know.  Think of people you knew because of jobs, that you no longer know.   Think of people whose parents die young.  Think of people who have a loved one die suddenly.  Is there a purpose, a reason for any of that?  I have a friend whose father was killed in a car accident.  Did he ever feel there was a reason for it?  I doubt it at the age of 14, but perhaps years and years later, he did.  

Perhaps your exN was only meant to be in your life for the length of time that he was.  That was all.    

The other aspect of this which I strongly believe is that it is natural that you would still feel linked to a person you loved and felt deeply about.  Of course you should!  Even if he hurt you, and it ended badly, you did love him.  I was with my exN almost the same amount of time as you (lived together 6 years, together 8 years)   and eventhough he destroyed me at the end and devastated me, I feel terribly linked to him still.  We had a connection, I do not think that is broken when you part after a considerable amount of time together and being in love.

Because we had financial business to finish after I moved, I said to my N, "You know, we are inextricably linked until we complete that transaction"  and his response was "New Day, we are inextricably linked for always" .... I was actually surprised he said that, and it may have been a typical N maneuver, but I have to say I think it was genuine.  And true.   My exN moved on quickly, as did your's, Lara, and your's has a baby, and mine married the OW.   But despite that, it does not negate the years we had with these people.  

When you say you want to be done with all this, I feel the same, but what I really mean is that I want to be at peace with it.  I do not expect the connection to break.   I just want to be at peace.  That is my goal.  
Maybe that is your ultimate goal, too, dunno.  But maybe give some thought to the idea that it's okay to still feel a connection to your exN, and that you will find a way to integrate it into the fabric of your life without discomfort eventually.  
You get to decide.

Be well, Lara.  
New Day
Title: What is the purpose?
Post by: Stormchild Guesting on May 09, 2005, 08:27:24 AM
Hello Lara

I too wonder about the purpose of all the love and hope and kindness we waste on Ns, who simply gobble it all, belch, backhand us across the face (or kick us in the teeth if they're feeling really perky), and grab greedily at the next morsel of supply.

I too wonder what kind of creature presents itself deliberately as loving and caring, and goes to the effort of appearing loving and caring, until we love and care for it, then drops the mask and turns into a monster.

I don't have a good answer. I have been looking. As a Christian, I try to believe that all love given is worthwhile, that it is the giving that counts. As a woman nearing 50, I can see, however, that this gets older than dirt real fast if you give and give and get nothing in return.

I have also remembered something that an Inuit shaman reportedly said, but I can't remember who actually wrote about it. Maybe Annie Dillard. The shaman said that much of the trouble with some human beings is the fact that their food consists chiefly of the souls of other human beings.

In other words, there are such things as soul predators. It would make sense. And appearing to be loving and caring would be the way they hunt their prey. This too would make sense. How they get that way - born vs. made - and whether or not they can be cured - is something I'll leave to others for the moment. Getting them out of my life is my primary concern just now.

The hard part is first realizing that this soul predation is what is going on, rather then an actual relationship; it involves realizing that the person we have invested so much of ourselves in never loved us and never will, but only saw us as a foodstuff. [Mum, thinking of this always makes me wish I could become vegan. The analogy to farm animals makes my hair curl.]

They may or may not be consciously predatory... but I think on some level they always know what they are doing. Their responses are too pat and too quick.

After we've faced the fact that someone we love is an affect vampire,  then we have to face the fact that continuing to love them is continuing to waste love. And since they are predators, they are extremely good at presenting a love mask that is very nearly ideal. We fall in love with the mask, but a mask is a dead thing, a made thing, a fabrication. Masks cannot love. Only souls can love.

Easy to say all this, but it has taken me years to figure it out. Decades. And I'm still vulnerable to the creatures - I just run sooner now, I glimpse the slavering muzzle behind the mask and run. It's worst when the affect vampires in your life include a parent, or both parents... because that is where we learn what love is supposed to be like, and if we had that lie in its place, it can take a long time to get past it.
Title: What is the purpose?
Post by: Brigid on May 09, 2005, 08:32:04 AM
Bunny,

Quote
The purpose of the relationship, for you, is a learning experience. The relationship itself was toxic for him and for you. People go through as many toxic relationships as it takes for them to learn about toxicity and how to notice it and choose to avoid it. Some people do notice it and choose to get involved anyway. So it's kind of a two-step process. First, noticing red flags even if you choose to keep going; and more advanced, noticing red flags and choosing to walk away even if the situation is enticing and seductive. So it takes a while to get to that place. That's the learning curve.


That is some of the best advice I have read on this site.  Thank you for condensing a difficult concept into such a concise paragraph.  You are a very insightful lady.

Brigid
Title: What is the purpose?
Post by: Lara on May 10, 2005, 02:33:40 AM
Dear Robin,
You have already helped me just by being with me in this, and understanding, and by your thoughts and suggestions.
Together we are so much stronger than on our own.

Much love,
Lara.
Title: What is the purpose?
Post by: Anonymous on May 10, 2005, 04:10:37 AM
Laura, Bunny and New Day  (Hi Brigid!)

Much like Brigid you have stated things in a very good way for me to go over.  New Day you could have been writing my story as well.  Word for Word.  Thank you all for the invaluable insights that I plan to mull over.

Much love,
Patz
Title: What is the purpose?
Post by: bunny on May 10, 2005, 12:42:13 PM
Quote from: robinm
There are so many things posted here that I would like to respond to - but I am so afraid of saying the wrong thing and making things worse for someone.  However, I do feel as though if I could help at least one person work through this, then maybe all the suffering would not have been in vain.  How were you able to build your confidence and sound so sure of yourself?  That is so much where I want to be. Any advice??


Thanks robinm, Brigid, and everyone.

I am not a therapist. I did get a degree in "counseling psychology" from a night school. I wanted to know how therapists operated because I was so suspicious of them. I thought they were manipulative, but I needed  therapy due to my problems. Now I've gone behind the curtain, and I know what they're up to, and how they form their ideas. I've read many books & articles. That's how I got the confidence. It is from all my reading and from being a therapy patient.

bunny
Title: What is the purpose?
Post by: Lara on May 13, 2005, 03:18:31 PM
Hi Everyone, so many great thoughts here!
Bunny, I've been thinking over what you said about the possibility of me trying to get from my ex, what I couldn't always get from my father. After you wrote that, it dawned on me that the men whom I know, at work for example, whom I credit with good characteristics and attractive personalities, are also, superficially at least, similar to my father. These are not men who I will ever get involved with,but they are people who I think of quite idealistically. But I'm not quite sure where I go from here, with that realisation,apart from steering clear of them romantically.
Also Bunny,could I ask you, or of course anyone else who could tell me....when you said that the relationship had been toxic for me AND toxic for my ex, is that because if a r/ship is toxic for one person, it must automatically be toxic for the partner as well, or is there some other reason? I was reminded that my ex sometimes said,not angrily but a bit sadly, that he wished he'd never met me, because his feelings for me were so strong.(He used to say that AFTER he moved in with his new girlfriend.) Is that just N talk,or was our r/ship toxic for him in another way than it was for me?

New Day, when you wrote about people only being meant to be in our lives for a time, you expressed something very well, which I have been telling myself too. Like you too,(and it's wonderful to know we are in this together!) I just want to be at peace with it. I agree with you that to still feel a link with people we loved so much is natural, and not something we can expect to shrug off easily, but...does the fact that we HAVE to struggle so much inside to move towards peace, say something about the nature of these r/ships? I don't want to forget my ex,and I want to be able to remember the good times and enjoy the memories, but so far the happy memories are painful, if you know what I mean!

And Robin, I think you are very insightful;you said that it might not be the ex we're  trying to get over, but the battle within ourselves. I think this is true;if I look at my ex through objective eyes, he's actually fairly ordinary, not particularly strong in character, somebody who drifted from one crisis, real or perceived, to the next. But it's as if, inside my mind, he exerted  a hold over me, out of proportion to who he really was, and also as if the damage to my mind, lingers on somehow.
Also thanks for reminding me about 'The Power of Now.' I agree with you, it's a great book, and actually I found it very helpful when I was still in the r/ship, and sometimes felt as if I was losing my grip on reality.It's a book that seems very theoretical at first and a bit daunting, but in fact it combines wonderful insights and new ways of looking at things, with really practical and helpful techniques.

Dear friends here,to end on a positive note...I've had a lousy,horrible week at work, but have survived it.Sometimes these days I feel so strong!

Much love,
Lara.
Title: What is the purpose?
Post by: Anonymous on May 13, 2005, 04:14:17 PM
Hi Lara and all:

There was an interesting program I saw once that described how females form a sort of imprint, in our brains, in very early childhood, that is the basis for what we will seek out in a male mate, as our homones begin to rage in puberty.  It made quite a lot of sense, really, that we pick out attributes that we see/like in our fathers and post them directly to a file in our head that basically says:  "Get this in your mate to survive".

Unfortunately, although this was not discussed, my suspicion is that when our fathers happen to be less than desirable (not yours but mine and some others--abusive), the stuff that gets imprinted isn't exactly pick of the crop information.  My next guess is that....we tend to consciously discard a lot of what our fathers were like but.. because it is the only file we have.....we use the information stored there anyway, almost against our own will... and pick a mate with similar characteristics, even if we are consciously trying to do the exact opposite.


Sorry.....I've gone off topic a bit.  The point is.....you're not the only one who's possibly making choices based on information stored during childhood, nor trying to change the way things went.....by reliving or recreating or trying to relive or recreate events with your ex.  Unfortunately for all of us.....none of that works and though it does leave us wondering if there was ever a purpose.....that program seemed to make it clear that the purpose is in a file, in our heads, that is supposed to help us choose a proper mate.  So when the stuff in that file gets messed up (even by such as by the death of our father).....it becomes more of a hinderance than a help, imo.
 
Quote
We had a connection, I do not think that is broken when you part after a considerable amount of time together and being in love.


I'm sorry, I've forgotton who wrote this but it really got me thinking.  It seems so very true.  Not just in romantic relationships but in all relationships.  When I connect with people.....and they are later gone from my life for awhile......no wonder it seems like they were just here yesterday....when we see eachother again!  This makes total sense to me.  Maybe we can never completely cut connections with people we really cared about?  Maybe there will always be an emotional connection because we shared so much emotion with them or gave so much emotion to them?  Maybe this isn't a really bad thing.  Maybe it just proves how truly emotionally connected we are capable of being and even if that is not recipricated...it is still of use.  It keeps us from completely hating.   It helps us empathize and maybe even forgive.  We don't just remember the bad things people do and say.....we remember the good and the joy we shared and some of their nice behaviour.

Stormy wrote:
Quote
I too wonder what kind of creature presents itself deliberately as loving and caring, and goes to the effort of appearing loving and caring, until we love and care for it, then drops the mask and turns into a monster.


Sick creatures Stormy.  Unhealthy people who are so messed up that they wouldn't know love if it was all there was.  Those who purposely hurt others are a different breed of human being....imo.....bred from bad conditons/genes or some combination that isn't right.  More than we who have suffered loss and pain from them, are they pathetically doomed to continue their sorry existance.  We hurt and cry out and try to let go and go on and look to heal ourselves and share our experiences with others.  They hunt for more of what never satisfies them and compulsively repeat their destructive behaviour until they ultimately either try to consume the wrong morsel, or get eaten alive inside by their own diseased souls.  Either way....they lose out big time by never having loved and never knowing what love is...to begin with.

GFN
Title: What is the purpose?
Post by: Brigid on May 13, 2005, 09:09:07 PM
I know I'm taking this thread in a slightly different direction, but I'll blame it on GFN because she started it.

As I look back over my life and the men that I have formed relationships with, be it friendships, marriages, co-workers, or men I have dated, I seem to have a universal reactions to them.  

The ones who have what I perceive to be soothing, sweet, kind demeanors, I want to be friends with, have them put their arm around me and comfort me.  I gather this is the father figure I wish I had.

Stupidly though, I never want these kind of men to be a love relationship.  I seem to only be attracted romantically to men who are edgier, funnier, sexier, whatever so that I don't confuse them with a father figure.  

I forever get angry with myself for not being attracted to some guy who seems so nice and be totally sucked in by someone who is easily identified as a piece of work.  I guess this is the mold I need to shatter so I don't make the same mistake again.

Even reading this makes me realize how screwed up I am.  I guess I need a lot more therapy.  :(

Brigid
Title: What is the purpose?
Post by: New Day on May 13, 2005, 09:38:01 PM
Quote
I seem to only be attracted romantically to men who are edgier, funnier, sexier, whatever so that I don't confuse them with a father figure.


So, Brigid, does this mean that  people who have sexy, edgy, funny fathers would go with the nice , soothing, sweet, kind guys?    So they don't confuse their mate with their father figure?  

I mean, some of those sexy, edgy guys are fathers, right?!?!    :lol:

GFN,

I mentioned that I believe that connections are not necessarily broken when breakups of any kind occur, and that includes when you lose a loved one to death.   I do not think that energy should be wasted trying to erase connections when they may indeed be permanent.  Connectedness and connections to people do not evaporate  because someone leaves your life.  

If anything, I find the connection I feel with my exN rather comforting, strangely enough.   But that's just me.  I don't mean to imply that this is the way it is for everyone, but maybe it's food for thought.  And if the connection feels hurtful and painful, the goal might be to accept it and be at peace with it, because once someone has been in your life, there is no way to erase that experience.  

Good night , all.  Sweet dreams.
New Day
Title: What is the purpose?
Post by: Brigid on May 13, 2005, 10:11:21 PM
New Day,

Quote
So, Brigid, does this mean that people who have sexy, edgy, funny fathers would go with the nice , soothing, sweet, kind guys? So they don't confuse their mate with their father figure?


I'm not saying that one kind is a father figure and the other is not to other people, but just to me.  I wish I had had a father who was kind, sweet and loving, so when I encounter men like that, my mind puts them in the father box in my mind, making it uncomfortable for me to think of them romantically.

This is not anything I have ever had reason to think about before.  I just knew that I gravitated toward men with kind, gentle personalities to be my friend while I was married.  This included married men, a priest I used to work with, older and younger men.  I had a feeling of peace when in their presence and would picture myself sitting next to them with their arm over my shoulder.  What I guess could be termed a father/daughter type relationship.  I will probably always be in search of a father figure to have in my life to replace the one I longed for but never had.

Maybe I'm not making any sense, but I do get it--just don't like it. :evil:

Brigid
Title: What is the purpose?
Post by: Anonymous on May 14, 2005, 09:25:00 AM
Hello everyone:

Quote
I will probably always be in search of a father figure to have in my life to replace the one I longed for but never had.

Maybe I'm not making any sense, but I do get it--just don't like it.  

Brigid


You're making a lot of sense to me, Brigid.  Maybe you will keep doing that but is it necessarily unhealthy?   If you have male friends with attributes similar to what you would find admirable in a father, is that really such a bad thing to search out in a friend?

Maybe it would be possible to shift your idea of what a mate is to more in line with some of these qualities you value as fatherish/friendish?  Afterall, had you had a loving, caring, kind, etc father....you would...according to that scientific theory described above here.....you would have built those attributes into your file, in your head, of what to look for in a mate.

Since you didn't have the kind of father with those traits.....you have made choices based on....imperfect information in that file, right?  But now that you've done that, learned from it, and are moving forward....you might actually be able to add new information to that file, or at least, clean out the junk that has not been of good use and this would help you to make healthier choices in the future.

What do you think Brigid?  Might you consider reprogramming that daddy/mate file?  Even if it is a subconscious file, I think it is possible to work with it.

Sorry, Lara.....it is my fault for going off topic here.  My point was that if any of this is accurate, then possibly your file contains information that isn't helping you either.  Maybe subconsciously....you are relating the end/loss of this relationship....with the loss/end of your experineces with your father (due to his death) and would it be possible then, that this is part of what's holding you back from letting go?  It was traumatic to lose your dad and it was traumatic to lose your relationship with your mate....so there might be a certain amount of association filed away somewhere that is giving you the same messages:  "Don't cut the connection.  Don't let go."   Maybe???????

If so, then it might be possible to reprogram that area by making new suggestions.

On the one hand.....as New Day said, it does seem like a waste of time trying to cut connections with those whom we have been deeply emotionally attached to because it is natural to want to hold onto that and maybe even inevitable that we always will, to a certain extent.

On the other hand, if such connections are agrivating and seem like something we just really want to distance ourselves from....I think it is possible to do so by really concentrating on doing that, even if it does take some energy to do so.   Maybe the answer, in this case, is to try to thin out the connection some, move away from it, by building new connections with others, by building new life experineces and by working on occupying our time with new stuff that puts those connections further and further from now and more and more into the past.

GFN
Title: What is the purpose?
Post by: New Day on May 14, 2005, 10:06:34 AM
Hi Brigid,

Thanks for clarifying the context you have for the caring, nice, etc., men that for you, create a feeling that you had always wanted in a father.  From that standpoint, I can see why it is difficult to view those men romantically and why you have always put them into the friend role.

IMHO, I don't think that's unhealthy, but as you said, something to think about and an observation worth noting.  Maybe you have never been able to integrate the idea that a romantic mate can *also* be loving, kind, caring, etc., and make you feel that same way.  It's not the exclusive domain of a father to provide that.  And where you were married for so long to someone who must not have given you those feelings, it's easy to understand why you were attracted to those qualities even throughout the years of your marriage, as you mentioned, via other men.  

Insofar as saying (from Robin's post) that someone "has a hold on you" I think that is very different from feeling a connection.   If you feel someone has a hold over you, it's something you can control, it's something you can break in time.   In a way, it is up to you to resolve that.   I know this may be semantics, but having a "hold over someone" is more of a mind control thing.  And I think you can work to resolve that and move on from it.

But a connection is quite different.  Again, IMHO.  But I do absolutely agree with what GFN said that, in time, being engaged in other aspects of your life, moving forward, putting energy elsewhere, will put the connection into a different context and make it weaker.  Especially where pain is involved, of course, there is a need / desire  to want to completely crush that connection.   I think the way any of us integrates  connections (or snuffs them out) is a very personal matter.  

Well, Lara, I also apologize if your thread has been taken in a OT direction.  But maybe it's all related, I hope so.  
And I hope you are feeling better.  
Be well,
New Day
Title: What is the purpose?
Post by: bunny as guest on May 14, 2005, 11:13:18 AM
Quote
when you said that the relationship had been toxic for me AND toxic for my ex, is that because if a r/ship is toxic for one person, it must automatically be toxic for the partner as well, or is there some other reason?


Yes, if it's toxic for one, it's automatically toxic for both. There's no way a relationship can be toxic to one person, and healthy for the other.

Quote
I was reminded that my ex sometimes said,not angrily but a bit sadly, that he wished he'd never met me, because his feelings for me were so strong.(He used to say that AFTER he moved in with his new girlfriend.) Is that just N talk,or was our r/ship toxic for him in another way than it was for me?


It was N-crap. His words are all manipulation and self-involved fantasy. Unfortunately he can only think about himself, and not about the other person. So his words are all about him. The relationship was toxic to him was because it kept him mired in the dysfunctional behavior of exploitive, manipulative, lying abuser. He needs to be out of romantic relationships totally, to repair himself. Obviously that isn't going to happen.

bunny
Title: What is the purpose?
Post by: Lara on May 14, 2005, 04:46:00 PM
Thanks everyone!
I agree that it makes perfect sense that we use the blueprint of our father when we are looking for a mate,because in most cases our father is our first and most influential example of 'maleness.' One of the great things about this site is that we can learn from others, and GFN I thank you for your suggestion that perhaps it's difficult to let go of my ex because there is a link there with letting go of my Dad. I'm going to give that more thought. It reminds me that three years ago, my distress during my r/ship with my ex led me to see a counsellor, and that when she sometimes used to ask me about my father and his death, the session always used to end with me crying my eyes out.

Bunny, thanks so much for replying to my questions, and for laying it on the line for me.It's really helpful.

Robin,it does sound like we're in the same sort of place,and that is comforting.Thank you for your kindness, and please know that you are in my thoughts too. I trust that we will reach a sense of peace, sooner or later, and if we find that pair of scissors, perhaps we could hold one handle each and make that liberating 'SNIP!' together!

NewDay, if you feel like it, could you explain in what way you find your connection to your ex comforting? I'd be really interested to know about it.

One more thing, re my aforementioned 'horrible week at work:'
it was a little like Stormy posted a few weeks ago,with people showing total lack of respect, rudeness, and lots of politicking going on. All in all it was a very uncomfortable week for me, but the strange thing is, how do I feel generally now...BETTER!    Most weekends I think about my ex too much, feel confused and nostalgic, but not this weekend! Today he seems a little more distant, a little less relevant, and perhaps I feel a bit more independent, because as best I could, I've stood up for myself against the jerks at work.

Anyway, love to everyone, hope your Saturday is going okay or better!

Sincerely,
Lara.
Title: What is the purpose?
Post by: Mati on May 15, 2005, 04:02:03 AM
Hi GFN

Quote
There was an interesting program I saw once that described how females form a sort of imprint, in our brains, in very early childhood, that is the basis for what we will seek out in a male mate


Thanks for that. It really made me think. I know that later on my father was unavailable, violent on occasion, and too strict, but perhaps it is in the very early years that the imprint occurs, when we are mainly atttatched to our mothers as primary caregivers, and mine was unable to be a mother to me due to mental illness, when faced with a child who had been poisoned with mercury from teething powders and who was irritable, sick a lot and generally difficult to manage. This has really opened up explanations to me about my childhood. The men in my life were not like my father in lots of ways, as it was my mother from whom I was 'abandoned' from in my first year when I was taken into hospital, and it is abandonment where I have had issues. I never bonded with my mother, and can see that perhaps if I had, then the effects of my father would not have been as significant in those early years when the deepest and more extensive damage was done. Surely a strong bond with a mother is the most important thing? Wonder what others think. Or did you mean males writing females instead?

Mati
Title: What is the purpose?
Post by: Anonymous on May 16, 2005, 10:09:05 AM
Hi all:

Quote
Most weekends I think about my ex too much, feel confused and nostalgic, but not this weekend! Today he seems a little more distant, a little less relevant, and perhaps I feel a bit more independent, because as best I could, I've stood up for myself against the jerks at work.


Good for you Lara!! :D

When you feel positive and good about yourself, you don't think about him so much.  When you feel blah or a bit less, you think about him more.  Keep thinking those powerful positive thoughts about yourself, as much as possible!  That's the way to go, I think.  Soon, he'll be a dull memory! :D

Hey Mati:

Good point.  Although that program was only about how we store an imprint in our minds containing certain information about our fathers, (which I referred to as a "file"), and which we use to help us make choices about our mates, as we hit puberty.........I'm sure you're quite correct!

I bet there are all kinds of "files" in there...and probably..one of the most powerful of those is the one containing information about our mothers.

I'm so sorry that you had such a sad, awful infancy (and more I bet).   You could be correct in that for those who have had a somewhat healthy bonding with their mother, the father "file" gives more input during the mate picking process.  Maybe......for those who have had a real time with abandonment, especially by their mother, that abandonment "file", becomes the strongest influence???

Maybe....it's what we long for most.....that causes us to make certain choices (even if we are unaware that we long for those things)???

Who knows.  In that show, they did refer to the "female"  keeping this data in the subconscious mind, for future use, but I am sure, males do the same, or similar type data collecting/filing, and that we as humans do so, for more than just... the mate picking process. :D

Quote
Surely a strong bond with a mother is the most important thing?


I can't answer this.  If you think this is something that really effects your life, I wonder if there are ways to form ...sort of ....substitute or similar bonds, to help a little???
I know there will never be the actual bond between you and your mother, but might it be possible for you to form bonds with say..an older woman....in some way that might be beneficial to both people??
Say on a volunteer basis?    Maybe that's a coooookie idea?? :?

GFN
Title: What is the purpose?
Post by: Lara on May 17, 2005, 01:36:44 AM
Dear GFN,
Thanks so much for your encouragement;it means a lot to me.

Sincerely,
Lara.
Title: What is the purpose?
Post by: Mati on May 17, 2005, 08:57:36 AM
Hi GFN

No that's not a cookie idea. In fact this is what happened to me once. I don't think I was ever adequately mothered and it was always an empty hole in me. Until a few years ago when I was at a Christian healing weekend (for people with ME) I was so ill at that time and was with one or two others at the back of the hall lying on campbeds because we were too ill to sit up for the hours of the meetings. One of the ministry team was a lovely woman in her seventies. She took me under her wing for the weekend and fussed over me like a mother hen. It was the first time I had ever felt cared for. I felt mothered and since then it has filled up that hole and replaced what I never knew. I felt that God had supplied a need that I had and felt it was a gift from Him. It made an enormous difference to my health and I started to improve from then on.

I believe that in our cultures, the accepted habits of child rearing ie putting babies to sleep on their own, letting them 'cry it out' etc cause a degree of abandoned feelings that stay with us. Children and adults from much more primitive societies where the babies stay close to thier mothers are found to be much more secure.

Mati
Title: What is the purpose?
Post by: October on May 17, 2005, 03:59:52 PM
..
Title: What is the purpose?
Post by: Mati on May 17, 2005, 04:13:15 PM
Well done O, you were a great mother.
Title: What is the purpose?
Post by: Anonymous on May 18, 2005, 09:20:10 AM
Hi Mati and everyone:

Quote
One of the ministry team was a lovely woman in her seventies. She took me under her wing for the weekend and fussed over me like a mother hen. It was the first time I had ever felt cared for. I felt mothered ...


Wow!!  That sounds wonderful!  Sounds like something many might find soothing and welcome.  Ya know, that's not a bad idea, in a way, a sort of mother-therapy. :shock:  :shock:

I mean, don't we all need to feel loved and cared for and fussed over sometimes, especially when we are suffering???  Man!!  I would love to see a clinic with hug therapy and mother therapy and laugh therapy and really odd but possibly really useful stuff like that and more happening!!!  That might sound really strange and weird but I bet people would come out of there feeling great!!! :D  :D

When my heart hurts I need to feel loved.  More than anything, more than any pill, or any therapist, or anything else....that love works wonders.

That's one of the reasons I love my dogs so much.  They are always available and willing to love me, no matter what.

Quote
Children and adults from much more primitive societies where the babies stay close to thier mothers are found to be much more secure.


Makes total sense to me.  Too bad our society has the almighty dollar and material wealth as priority.  It's a catch 22 for many.  If mom works, kids emotional needs suffer but they are happy when they can have the expensive whatnots that all their friends are having.  If mom stays home, kids don't even realize that their emotional needs are better off and feel ripped off when their parents can't afford the whatnots.  I know people like Dr. Laura say it's something anyone can do......stay home with their children.  But has she ever lived in poverty.... I mean really had to struggle just to put food on the table for her children?  I'm not sure what she means...all single mothers should go on welfare maybe??  Any two income family is doing their children a disservice maybe?  Everyone can work from home maybe????  I think it's easy to judge from a pedistal.  On the other hand, it is most likely true that people who carry their children around on their backs, from 10 minutes after birth, raise more secure people.  Too bad our society doesn't allow for women carrying children around on their backs (or dads for that matter either).
Can you imagine??? :shock: :D  :shock:  :D  

Welll....just rambling away here Mati.  

Hey October!  Sorry you edited your post.  I didn't get a chance to read it.  Oh....doesn't matter...it's whatever feels best for you.  I already believe you are a fantastic mom!!  I really do!!  Your daughter is lucky to have you (and vice versa I'm sure). :D  :D

GFN