Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: October on May 08, 2005, 04:51:47 PM
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I am torn today between two ways of thinking. Either we are all here to support one another, and find our humanity in empathy and love, or else we are all alone, and the trick is to get over it and then sink or swim.
I live by the first rule myself, pretty well as much as I can. But all around me I meet the second. Am I doing something wrong?
Black and white thinking, my t would say, and that we are all a combination of the two. But I don't see much combination thinking around, to be honest.
What do others think?
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I'm not in a terribly optimistic frame of mind, but with that disclaimer, I'll tell you what I truly believe:
we are intended to work together, and love one another, and cooperate.
we can choose instead to work against one another and compete where competition makes no sense at all.
people who pick the first way are people who see others as human beings, as their equals before God and one another when it comes down to it.
people who pick the second way are people who see others as inferiors, or even as appliances and commodities. And need to see them that way.
Martin Buber called this "I-Thou" relating, versus "I-You" or I-It" relating. He felt that I-Thou was the ideal level, but that most of us who care, and think about what we do, cannot manage I-Thou all the time everywhere - it takes too much out of us. So we do some I-thou, and most I-you, but we try not to cause harm in our I-you relating.
He felt that there was no justification for I-It relating at all. It leads to things like the Holocaust.
I think many many people don't really want to work very hard mentally or otherwise, and don't want their precious selves compromised in any way, so they head for the second way, the I-It paradigm, from the minute their little bitty feet hit the ground.
Most sound childrearing seems to me to be focused on making the children aware that the I-Thou and the I-You ways exist, and then persuading them not to pick I-It.
I've never in my life seen a single person who had to be taught selfishness... but I've seen many who have never learned empathy.
You might like "I and Thou"... he was a marvelous philosopher and theologian. He is the one who wrote, "All true living is meeting." And he's a lot more optimistic about the human condition than I am :D
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You might like "I and Thou"... he was a marvelous philosopher and theologian. He is the one who wrote, "All true living is meeting." And he's a lot more optimistic about the human condition than I am :D
Is this in a book? I would like to read more about it, if I can. I have one very close friend who on rare occasions uses 'thee' and 'thou', in moments of particular emotional closeness, and it is always very touching, because it is unique in my experience of friends.
Thanks for a new perspective on this, Stormchild.
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It sure is. Buber survived the Holocaust... he was Chasidic, I think.
So he wrote first in German, which still uses I and thou . Called the book "Ich Und Du".
The English translation is "I And Thou"... author, Martin Buber. There is a lot of sacred poetry in it. It is a very mystical book. I love it.
Is your friend Quaker? The Quakers I know still use 'thee' in some settings, which overwhelmed me when I found out, because I do too.
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The English translation is "I And Thou"... author, Martin Buber. There is a lot of sacred poetry in it. It is a very mystical book. I love it.
Is your friend Quaker? The Quakers I know still use 'thee' in some settings, which overwhelmed me when I found out, because I do too.
No, he is Anglo-Catholic, like me, and very spiritual. It comes out of spiritual moments, combined with emotional intimacy. Meetings of the soul. :oops: I have never dared try the same in return, but I am always touched when he says these things. Very nice.
Must see if S has a copy of this. He is almost certain to, because he has a wonderful theological library all his very own. :) If he doesn't, then perhaps I should buy a copy in German. 8) :oops:
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Storm
I am a Quaker and have Quaker friends who use the thee and thou all of the time but I do not use it. I do not believe that the principle applies today but have no objection to anyone using it, in fact I think it souns nice.
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I went to my daughter's friend's Bat Mitzvah yesterday. I was raised Catholic, and although had been to many Bat and Bar Mitzvahs, I was, for the first time, totally engrossed in the Torah commentary written for the selections they used. There was one whole chapter that blew me away...all with extremely universal concepts of the divinity of all beings....that "separation" type thoughts are what causes our pain in this world.
Today they are remembering the 60 year anniversary of the liberation of the death camps. So at the close of her Bat Mitzvah service, they spent some time with some beautiful writings on the subject. What struck me most, was the recurring theme of light within darkness, of unfallable faith.
This is what being human is all about. Love, compassion, finding our way to be both loving and compassionate in a rather harsh place. These obstacles to this oneness are indeed of our own making....how we overcome them is what makes life worth living.
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Mati, I am so tickled to learn that about you! I already knew you were way cool. It's a nifty new fact, though.
I think we're all mystics on this board... :D 8) :D 8) :D 8)
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:D :lol: :D :lol:
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I am torn today between two ways of thinking. Either we are all here to support one another, and find our humanity in empathy and love, or else we are all alone, and the trick is to get over it and then sink or swim.
I see it as a combo. Toward others, the highest behavior is being compassionate. However, we are existentially alone with our psyche and will die alone. Many times we're on our own because there is no mind reading and everyone is just trying to get through the day. So we can also be compassionate toward ourselves. I accept that many people are on a low level of awareness. Some of them can be reached through continuous compassionate understanding but who has time for that. Sometimes you just have to throw up your hands.
bunny
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Just dropped by today and found this fabulous discussion!
I am torn today between two ways of thinking. Either we are all here to support one another, and find our humanity in empathy and love, or else we are all alone, and the trick is to get over it and then sink or swim.
I think we are all essentially alone but also, as human beings, we are so relational in nature that we cannot see ourselves or know ourselves except in relation to each other.
Stormchild:
we are intended to work together, and love one another, and cooperate.
we can choose instead to work against one another and compete where competition makes no sense at all.
I really love that thought and some days I believe it- that there is an intention greater than us who designed human beings. I like Buckminster Fuller's statement-
I don't have any "good" or "bad" people. You and I didn't design people. God designed people. What I am trying to do is to discover why God included humans in Universe.
I'm trying to find out what God permits us progressively to know and preferrably to do if we humans are to continue in Universe."
I had a fascinating discussion while teaching what was supposed to be an improv theatre class for 12-15 yr olds. The boys were into it and the girls were very inhibited. I said, "It seems like there is girl energy here and boy energy here, what's that about?" What followed was an amazing conversation where the boys talked about how they are afraid of girls and the girls talked about how they are afraid OF EACH OTHER. They are afraid of what will be said behind their backs.
I dont think we're progressed completely beyond that as adults. I think we are basically alone, afraid of each other, scared that we are or will be judged, and that we build intimacy with a few people or groups in order to feel less alone, less afraid. And when I look at the world around me it is very difficult to see evidence that we were intentfully DESIGNED to function lovingly and cooperatively. There seem to be a few oasis of this amidst a desert of harsh power mongering.
Thanks for the discussion, and glad to know that most people here are the "oasis" type!
Love Ya!
Delphine
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And when I look at the world around me it is very difficult to see evidence that we were intentfully DESIGNED to function lovingly and cooperatively. There seem to be a few oasis of this amidst a desert of harsh power mongering.
This is what I see around me. I see a desert. And I am in the middle of it, feeling as if I am the odd one out. I am no saint, but compared with people around me, I feel like - well, homo sapiens surrounded by neanderthals. Sorry to sound arrogant. :oops: :oops: I don't mean superior at all, just seeing the world in a different way, one of co-operation rather than beating one another over the head.
So, how is it best to survive? Whcih should we teach our children to be? Should we sell our souls and join in with everyone else, or continue as we are, lone voices in the wilderness? Perhaps it is not a choice at all. We have to be who we were born to be, as far as we can achieve it.
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Hi everyone,
I am torn today between two ways of thinking. Either we are all here to support one another, and find our humanity in empathy and love, or else we are all alone, and the trick is to get over it and then sink or swim.
Seems like we're to be the first, so we don't become the second.
Or perhaps we are born the second and try to become the first because the second is a pretty awful thing to be.
The first 30 years of my life I was alone and felt it.
But after I met my wife, I have never felt alone since then. Even when far away from her, I can feel her presence. I guess most couples aren't like this? I don't know maybe they are. Anybody else feel this way? Like your soul is dissolved together with someone else's? Mother's and children?
October,
What is the second of the two great commandments?
"Love your neighbor as thyself"
That sounds a lot more like your first option than the second.
And the first commandment is "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and soul"
That's the second reason I never feel alone anymore. Because I always feel His presence.
And if I live the first commandment it gives me a lot more strength to do the second.
mudpup
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What is the second of the two great commandments?
"Love your neighbor as thyself"
mudpup
I treat my 'neighbours' a lot better than I treat myself. And my 3D 'neighbours' treat me a lot worse than they treat themselves.
There are not many places which are like this; where most people treat others as they would wish to be treated, and the end result is a place of safety and rest. And of learning.
But apart from such (invaluable) experiences, most of life it reinforces the same message: others are better/deserve more/need looking after. I am invisible.
Sometimes the commandments don't help. :lol:
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October,
If most people were good to each other He wouldn't have had to call them 'commandments', right? :?
I truly believe that there is a reward for trying to stick to the commandments. Maybe not in this lifetime, but in the one that counts. The one that lasts.
I think He notices when you treat your neighbors better than yourself. I think He licks His finger, reaches up and slides another marker to the credit side of your account, and says "Another jewel for October."
mudpup
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So, how is it best to survive? Which should we teach our children to be? Should we sell our souls and join in with everyone else, or continue as we are, lone voices in the wilderness? Perhaps it is not a choice at all. We have to be who we were born to be, as far as we can achieve it.
Here's what I would teach them:
--Help them develop their unique identity so that they are okay on their own. They'll always feel relatively autonomous and self-sufficient.
--Help them develop social skills so that they can get along with others and develop boundaries.
--Give them emotional management skills so that they don't feel every situation as a catastrophe. This makes them feel the world is relatively manageable.
--Teach them that not everyone is benign and how to protect themselves. (boundaries)
--Be honest with them (age appropriately) about the evil and destruction in the world and immediately bring up ways to help improve it - recycling, charity, good deeds, that kind of thing makes kids feel less despondent.
--Give them a moral foundation by teaching them values, ethics, morality, without being righteous about it.
--Be a good role model.
I could go on but you get the picture.
bunny
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October, you said
I am no saint, but compared with people around me, I feel like - well, homo sapiens surrounded by neanderthals.
If I go a bit too far outsde my "oasis" of personal friends it looks like that to me also. I happen to live in a very hip progressive town but when I go outside the city limits here its a whole other mentality.
You posed some provocative Qs
So, how is it best to survive? Which should we teach our children to be? Should we sell our souls and join in with everyone else, or continue as we are, lone voices in the wilderness?
My personal strategy is to ban together and network. I found a church whose basic intent is to train community and environmental activists in our youth. We network with other like minded churches and community groups. I try to teach my daughter both to realisticly observe the way the world is and to speak powerfully into that world, to move people towards a more cooperative vision.
The lone voice thing sucks!! And selling your soul seems like it could backfire, but wait!! How much could I get for one slightly used soul?? (kidding)
But after I met my wife, I have never felt alone since then. Even when far away from her, I can feel her presence. I guess most couples aren't like this? I don't know maybe they are. Anybody else feel this way?
Mud, that's what I mean by finding a few intimate friends but it seems that has to be built, that it is not given to us, wheras the loneliness is.
I, too, feel the presence of the Divine in my life I just don't see Her blessings out there in the world as much as I see the pain and victory of the souless. Perhaps this is more a function of the press though which loves a war and never tells us the everyday wonders that acts ofkindness bring.
Delphine
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Delphine,
I, too, feel the presence of the Divine in my life I just don't see Her blessings out there in the world as much as I see the pain and victory of the souless. Perhaps this is more a function of the press though which loves a war and never tells us the everyday wonders that acts ofkindness bring.
You say She, I say He, you say tomato, I say tomotto.
I think it goes much deeper than the press. There are plenty of societies with no press at all and they're just as full of wife beaters and abandoned children as ours.
I believe what Jesus said; evil rules this world. It seems self evident to me. It is pervasive.
That is why I have hope in the blessings of a better world after this one. This one seems pretty much unbearable without that hope.
Daylily,
Beautifully put as usual. I believe the mindset you speak of is directly related to what Delphine was speaking of. The way most people react to a soulless existence is to grab as much of what they can lay their hands on, whether its their's or their neighbor's. This is a substitute for having some meaning to their lives.
mudpup
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Hi all: This is an interesting discussion! :D
In adddressing the title of this thread, I think this life is just like one big test.
We know, for the most part, what is right and what is not. We have free will to choose our behaviour. We have many experiences which generate thoughts and feelings and we learn by those experiences, by what we think and feel, and by our choices.
The more often we choose right/kind/generous/lovingly/good/etc.....the more points we score. When we make poor choices, especially out of anger/to feel power/because we are being lazy/or to intentionally cause harm ......we lose points....in a big way.
There is a release clause that allows for us to stay the course by facing consequences/feeling and expressing remorse/taking responsibility and making amends for the things we do wrong.....which gives us forgiveness (and some or all of our lost points are regained).
The world may be a wicked place, sometimes, but there are many, many who are not wicked here. The behaviour of societies in general may be bad, sometimes, but there are always those who fight for change. It's tempting to do what's easy but not always good or right. Some have more hardship to endure and who strive to do/be/give better to the world/other people. Some have gifts and share readily. All of these and more may accumulate bonus points.
Those with plenty who hord.....those with opportunity who are thankless... those with gifts who flaunt etc......may lose more points quicker.
There are very few saints (compared to the general population) but there are some. There are plenty of temptations and hardships and some who refuse to do the test (so they ignor the rules and do as they like).
For me it's a matter of dodging those who are behaving... not so nice and seeking out those who are behaving fairly well. And sometimes I mess that up real good too. :shock: :oops: Either I misjudge or fail to risk or simply choose poorly. Not always....but sometimes.
Mistakes......are inevitable due to being human.....and will be totalled
into the finals....depending on severity. Big mistakes that hurt ourselves tend to cost more in this life, than they do in the next, (is my guess), and those that really hurt others....well.....there has to be payment some where/some time/some place....somebody is going to lose points.
In the end......it will all be tallied up and rewards will be given accordingly.
GFN
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Uhhh,
In my last post there is a reference to a post by Daylily.
Either, in descending order of concern:
1.She deleted it while I was posting mine.
2.I read it on another thread and thought it was here.
3.I am suffering from delusions and need to be hospitalized.
I hope someone can help me with this, cause I know I read a very nice post by Daylily. Did anyone else?
Daylily, have I lost my proverbial marbles, and if so could you help me find them? :?
a confused mudpup
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well, make hospital reservations for 2 because I also swear I read a really provocative post by Daylily on materialism.
I liked your post a lot, Day, I hope your didn't intentionally delete it!
Delphine
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I liked your post a lot, Day, I hope your didn't intentionally delete it!
Wow, this board moves fast. I deleted it because I thought perhaps it could be misconstrued as being too critical--which certainly wasn't my intention.
But thanks very much for your comment.
daylily
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Daylily, have I lost my proverbial marbles, and if so could you help me find them? :?
Sorry, mudpup. I deleted it because (as I said below, before I read your post--I sometimes start from the back on threads I've already visited) I thought it might be a bit too critical. I certainly didn't want to offend anyone with my opinionated ramblings.
Thanks for the comment, and again, sorry for the confusion.
daylily
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At the same Bat Mitzvah I was at on Sat. eve, at the big party afterwards, my almost 13 year old suffered her first heartbreak from a boy.
She did not tell me, as the kids and adults pretty much ignored each other, as they should in those situations, but I knew something was up on the way home. At 1:30 in the morning she came to me crying, and told me the tale of woe. She was miserable all Sunday, and apologized profusely for "wrecking" my mother's day. I told her in all honesty, that being there for her, having her share her feelings with me, was the best kind of mother's day present possible.
What does this have to do with the "meaning of life"? This IS the meaning of life. Love. It is a simple word and a simple philosophy. It is our divine purpose, it is our promise.
Love ourselves enough to know we can heal others. Love others enough to know they can be healed. Love this life enough to find these experiences. Those of us on the recieving end of pain dumping by N's have a giant size gift wrapped package of learning in that pain. It's huge for many of us. But it is such amazing learning....if we figure THIS out, imagine what life will be like for us!!!! There will be no stopping us!!
So we have an added burden (or gift) of finding love, of transforming pain. But we will really know what we are doing when we "get it"... It's about awareness. We are waking up.
October: I know you have a close and loving relationship with your daughter as well. This is where we need to put our focus, on that which is loving in this world. If we make the choice to put our focus on that which is negative, then that is what we will see, and we will, out of habit, see more and more of that.
On this planet, there is evil and there is good....love and fear. Spending our precious energy concerned with all the "negative" will simply beget more negativity. The negative "wins" as it were, by getting us to focus on it. Acknowledging that it exists but that positive does as well, can help, however this "duality of life" type of focus can inspire what Rosamund Stone Zander and Benjamin Zander (in their book "The Art Of Possibility") call the "Downward Spiral Talk". ("Well, this good thing could happen, but then this roadblock will go up, etc, etc, so what's the point?")
Focusing on possiblility and positive energy is actually a choice....that becomes a habit.....that brings to light positive energy, that reinforces our change in focus, our perception.....that creates and heals, rather than destroys and hurts.
In buddist teachings we are asked a question: will I continue to add pain to the world or will I transform it, and heal instead? It's a good question: will I give back more of what I got (negative) or will I learn from it and transform?
To take pain, learn from it, transform it, no matter how many times we get kicked into the mud, is what this life is about. It is not about winning, or having the "best" deal out of life.....it's about love. Love can come from pain. It's a choice. Put your focus where you want. Everybody's life sucks....and everybody's life is beautiful. It's what you percieve.
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I certainly didn't want to offend anyone with my opinionated ramblings.
Thanks for the comment, and again, sorry for the confusion.
daylily
I for one would love to read what you have to say, Daylily. I would even put money on not thinking afterwards that it is anything like opinionated ramblings. :)
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What does this have to do with the "meaning of life"? This IS the meaning of life. Love. It is a simple word and a simple philosophy. It is our divine purpose, it is our promise.
(and whole post)
Thanks, mum. What a lovely post. You are right; I do focus on my daughter, and she gives me a reason to look after not only her but also me as well.
I suppose if everyone else is right and we are wrong, we are at least well intentioned, and well meaning. And I would rather be on the side of such people as the Dalai Lama, rather than on the side of the materialists. I think. :?
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I finally got around to reading all of this thread and just had a couple of comments.
Mudpup,
The first 30 years of my life I was alone and felt it.
But after I met my wife, I have never felt alone since then. Even when far away from her, I can feel her presence. I guess most couples aren't like this? I don't know maybe they are
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I don't think most couples are like this. Sad, but true. Your wife is a very lucky lady. I dream of having someone who feels this way about me. As I am having to deal with the realization that not one single man in my life (except my son who technically is a man now) has ever really loved me, it is hard to imagine that it will ever be different. I have to have faith that it is not that I am unlovable, but that I was not given the tools to choose a man who is capable of a loving relationship.
As far as the "meaning of life" goes, I think we must live by the code that is in our hearts and minds. If you are a good person, with good values, a positive moral code, and have your values in the right place, that is the way you should live your life and the example you should set for your children. We can tell our children until we are blue in the face what to do and not do, how to behave, what behaviors to avoid, etc., etc., but we then must demonstrate that on a daily basis. If we screw up (and we all do), we need to take responsibility for that and apologize.
We can't keep the blinders on and be naive about the realities of the world and the people in it. There are many bad, stupid, insensitive, money-hungry folks out there that have the ability to do a little or a lot of harm. We need to know how to recognize that and teach our children the warning signs as well.
I choose to associate myself on an intimate level with those who share like values and have minimal contact with those who don't. That is easier for me than for many of you because I don't work outside the home (although that may be changing soon), but you can still choose which co-workers to have more than a professional relationship with.
I don't think I could live with myself if I chose to live my life only to grab what I could for myself and to hell with the rest of the world. I have watched my H do this for the last 20 months and it sickens me.
Brigid
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I agree that the meaning of life is to love. Although never married, nor with childen, I look at my life and wonder what the entire meaning of my life is.
The people that have had the greatest impact in my life are mentors: women not married, who consider me their child and pour their lives into me. A young man, I briefly dated, before he died, certainly left his imprint in my life.
I think an important thing to do would be to look at that sappy holiday movie: "It's a Wonderful Life". What would have happened if you never were on this earth?
For myself, I know that my life carries forward those people who mean the most to me. As for that young man, I carry his memory with me everyday. I am a better person for having had him in my life.
Some relationships in life are bad, my mom. However, it does help me relate and be a sounding board to others who don't have perfect parents. When my relationship with mom gets too bad, I can either write here, or talk with those who have used me as a sounding board.
I personally think that everything passes away. . . . however the relationships we have last forever.
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Hi all,
Daylily,
I certainly didn't want to offend anyone with my opinionated ramblings.
I think the only person who could have been offended by your post would have been some self absorbed, ravenous wolf of a materialist; you know, an N. And if we can't offend Ns here, of all places, then we might as well close shop and board up the doors. :(
Brigid,
Your wife is a very lucky lady.
Thanks, but I think you got it backwards.
I have to have faith that it is not that I am unlovable
Of course it isn't. Your loveability quotient is off the scale. That comes through whenever you speak. You just haven't met the man who could appreciate you, yet. A sixty something year old gal in our singles group just got married two weeks ago, so you're just a spring chicken. :wink: And I doubt if she can whip up a tenderloin/ asparagus dinner like you. :wink: :wink:
mum,
This IS the meaning of life. Love. It is a simple word and a simple philosophy.
"He who does not love does not know God, for God is love"
You're right mum, it is simple. :wink: :D
mudpup
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I've been thinking about what you said, Mud, about you and your wife.
No, I don't think most couples are like this. It's hard to find. I married a few toads, before I realized (and thankfully was able to find him again!) that the first man who asked me to marry him 24 years ago, is indeed that person that I feel that connection to. I am so grateful....I don't know how I got so lucky....
And in retrospect, my "reconnection" with him was the start of my own transformation, or return to the real me.....no small coincidence, I see now.
I did and do the work....but he inspires me everyday to be a better person, and because he loves the "real" me, I get to love myself again. Funny how another person can do this for someone. I guess we do it for our kids...so it's not so strange...
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mum,
I married a few toads, before I realized (and thankfully was able to find him again!) that the first man who asked me to marry him 24 years ago, is indeed that person that I feel that connection to.
Now that is a cool story. 8) Very Romantic. :D
mud
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I’m a bit late on this one October but I’d like to talk, see if I change my mind during writing this….
Either we are all here to support one another, and find our humanity in empathy and love, or else we are all alone, and the trick is to get over it and then sink or swim.
We can’t practically live alone, we’d die. So we need others to physically survive.
In our heads, we’re always alone (?as far as we can tell). Through language, limited though it is, we can exchange ideas and find people who share our ideas about life. Feeling part of a group can make us feel content and secure. A group also gives us possibilities for growth and achievement (‘progress’).
We’re animals. As much as we like to separate ourselves from ‘the animal kingdom’ etc, that’s just human narcissism: we think we’re above all the other animals (why?). The evidence is our superiority due to our opposable thumbs and big brains. That superiority is shown through our aggressive dominance (as it is with all animals?).
Life is competitive. Life is about survival of the dominant genes. Why do we have children? Not for altruistic reasons, or at least I haven’t heard an altruistic reason yet. I’m still open to changing that view though.
We are here to survive and pass on our genes and that’s it. And what’s right or wrong with that? It just is. That’s what animals do.
What is humanity? To me it’s being an animal that appears to have attributes that other animals don’t. I don’t know if consciousness is a useful attribute for survival. But I do think that because we do have big brains, that we can keep stretching them. We don’t have to accept our current thoughts; we can change our ways of thinking. For me one way of doing this is by talking about things which bore me silly, or which I disagree strongly with. I try and listen and understand what it is that other people find interesting. By doing that, trying to enter their worlds, I can maybe get a glimpse of why I think differently to them and vice-versa. But I don’t assume that anyone is ‘right’ or ‘wrong’, I’m interested in ‘why’.
Delphine said:
And when I look at the world around me it is very difficult to see evidence that we were intentfully DESIGNED to function lovingly and cooperatively.
I think we were designed as all animals, to survive. What is the purpose of life? To continue to grow and adapt. If that growing and adapting means cooperating, we’ll do that (within our family/tribal/social/country groups). People don’t drive the wrong way down a highway, that’s cooperation. We don’t all murder our neighbours these days, in most countries (?not sure that’s a fact). I think we’re slightly better at living together than we used to be, so that’s improvement. :D So human survival isn’t all that bad a concept! The more we realise we live on one world, the more we know about what happens on this planet, the more we live together cooperatively, the more chance we have of surviving as a species.
As soon as we’re born, we’re selfishly fighting for survival. We aren’t designed to give up our water and food to someone else, unless we have more than enough. Then we might share so that we’re not alone and we have another group member etc etc…
People in some parts of the world have far more than enough for survival today. People in other parts of the world are dying right now from lack of food, clean water etc. Obviously we are a competitive, survival-driven animal, because if we weren’t, the situation would be different.
I don’t find myself cooperating with many people around me (in the real world) because I don’t want what they want. It is difficult finding people who want to share, to enjoy and who are open to real conversation.
But why should life be easy? Why do we expect things to be good just because we live? Survival is about knowing what you want and fighting for it – and that includes fighting for cooperation and better understanding if that’s what you want.
Thanks October, that clarified some stuff for me. Hope it isn’t too off-the-wall for your thread, because it feels it to me (but then I’m often on my own and I’m used to it, what the heck) best, P
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The meaning of life as far as I can tell, is to LIVE it. My own life has been very fractured and difficult and painful, with a lot of missing spaces. I seem to have spent most of mine so far looking to fill in the cracks. Occasionally I have found myself in the thick of life, in places and situations with a richness and denseness that was truly fulfilling. Right now I'm in a place at once arid and foggy (aka depression plus confusion/indecision/fear).
I think life is about challenges and growth, and the frustrations come from not being able to use situations to stretch and grow (these are my experiences anyway.) Learning to be fearless again, learning to laugh, to fall down and stand up again, and most of all, learning to love. People, places, and ourselves too. It's difficult, challenging and sometimes heartbreaking too, but it's worth it. (Now if only I could get myself to believe that again i really will be laughing :lol:)
2cents
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This is the cooolest thread!! I love reading it and wish I had time to go over and over it because there is so much here...so many ideas....so many ways of looking at things....it just gives me enthusiasm and hope!!
Just want to say P, re what you wrote:
Hope it isn’t too off-the-wall for your thread, because it feels it to me (but then I’m often on my own and I’m used to it, what the heck)
I think what you wrote is very logical and realistic. Truly a great post, P!!
Truly, many great posts here!! :D :D :D
Thanks for starting this one, October!!
GFN
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2cents,
Your 2cents makes a lot of sense to me. I think the purpose of life is to live it and not fritter it away, spend it in a useless depression, but try to appreciate the moment. What if the sky is sunny, with puffy clouds, and a few birds flying, and I won't even look at it because of some other crap that will pass anyway. So I try to look at the sky and appreciate it. (Stopping and smelling the roses philosophy). I'm not 100% successful but that's the idea.
bunny
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Well, this is not really helping. I agree with the theory of it all, and I even live by it, but why does it not work the other way?
My t tells me that if I am in trouble I should ring the Samaritans. Then she tells me she will be there next Monday, but then away for 2 weeks. What is going on? She thinks it is about her, but it is not. I don't care if I never see her again, as long as I get the support I need. She thinks I want her home phone number, or something. :shock: There is a real misunderstanding. A fundamental failure of me to communicate and of her to understand what I need.
I have a thousand people - friends - who I can call any time at all. What I need is someone to call when I am approaching a dangerous state, who can help me to come back from that state.
So I ring a friend, who is normally a good friend, and leave a message. One message in 100, saying I am having a bad day, and really struggling. That was yesterday. He already promised to ring me on Monday, but didn't. Then I left the message and I am still waiting. No reply to his phone. No call back. But I went and helped him out last Saturday, and we had a good day. Why is it when I need help suddenly all the lines go dead?
Really struggling with this one. I am all in favour of a loving universe, but how come it only seems to work one way? Sorry, feeling a bit down tonight, as you can see. Listened to the Archbishop of Canterbury's sermon at a service in St Pauls for the Tsunami today, and it made the tears fall, because he said all those things that I want to believe are true, and which I try to live by, but which seem so rare around me.
And I have to try to garner some enthusiasm for everyday life, when it is all so difficult, and all I want to do is to go to bed. :?
Hmm. Bit down, as I said. I am struggling to see the point of being altruistic in a world that really doesn't give a damn.
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My t tells me that if I am in trouble I should ring the Samaritans. Then she tells me she will be there next Monday, but then away for 2 weeks. What is going on?
My guess is that she isn't a great therapist since she's abandoning you.
So I ring a friend, who is normally a good friend, and leave a message. One message in 100, saying I am having a bad day, and really struggling. That was yesterday. He already promised to ring me on Monday, but didn't. Then I left the message and I am still waiting. No reply to his phone. No call back. But I went and helped him out last Saturday, and we had a good day. Why is it when I need help suddenly all the lines go dead?
Is this the gay minister? If so, he's been unreliable and selfish before. If it's not him, it's probably someone who can't tolerate other people's difficulties and gets overwhelmed very quickly. Friends can't really cut it when you're in a panic. So I'm glad you posted here.
Really struggling with this one. I am all in favour of a loving universe, but how come it only seems to work one way? Sorry, feeling a bit down tonight, as you can see. Listened to the Archbishop of Canterbury's sermon at a service in St Pauls for the Tsunami today, and it made the tears fall, because he said all those things that I want to believe are true, and which I try to live by, but which seem so rare around me.
Do you mean you love the universe but it doesn't love you? Sorry, I am a bit confused there.
And I have to try to garner some enthusiasm for everyday life, when it is all so difficult, and all I want to do is to go to bed. :?
You don't have to garner any enthusiasm for everyday life. Forget that. And you don't have to be altruistic when you're in some kind of downward spiral. What little things can you do to take care of yourself right now? Do you like tea, or reading in bed?
{{ October }}
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Hi October:
Sorry you're feeling down and out (no wait....you're in.... :? ).
Yes......give, give, give. Does it seems like that's all you do some days?
Giving without wanting anything in return....is a hard concept to fall in love with. It can feel draining. It can feel like a waste of time...un-noticed... like it doesn't make a difference.
It's you....and people like you......who do give much to others....who overcome fear...like you did last weekend.....and give beyond what many of us might find easy to give.....who give over and above what seems comfortable......people like you who make....the world....a better place.
And when you're feeling low.....and sad.....and needy......now you feel abandoned and ignored..... because no one is giving back fearlessly to you/beyond what is easy/comfortable. :( Yes.....that is sad and not fair at all.
(just think of the extra points you're earning with the Big Boss Upstairs!!! :D ). But that isn't any consellation right now, is it? Because you'd rather have immediate gratification....have someone phone right back......take action to help you....now. Who wants to wait for the points to be added up anyhow?? :roll:
That's probably why they say patience is a virtue It's not easy to be virtuous always. Impossible.....really eh? So I don't expect you to be either. I understand your disappointment and frustration....with the T and your fail-to-phone-back friend. And I can't give you one reason why you should not feel the way you do. As a matter of fact....your feelings are very valid and very much what I think I might feel, under similar circumstances, what anyone might feel.
The only thing I see that may help is to remind you that not ........ everyone......in the world is like your T and your friend. Maybe call a different friend? Would that help?
The theories of life...in this thread....give us plenty to think about but that isn't helping you right now. I think you want a reason why the rest of the world isn't so giving? Why you can live the theory but the rest of the world doesn't? Maybe....why there is evil in the world??? :?: :?:
Maybe you're not counting everyone? Does your child give back? Do you have some friends who are more like you? Have you seen good things happen for others....giving things.....kind things......fearless things....generous stuff? I understand that you want to personally experience it more, but seeing it happen may also be considered a gift. Some people see nothing but horror and torture their entire lives. :( :(
I'm just rambling away here, October. I've learned truly that it is most certainly...by giving....that we recieve the most. I embrace this idea and wholey believe it. Therefore...it is a very powerful idea for me and makes a big difference in my life. I don't care whether or not I get anything back. I truly don't. I like to give and if I could......I'd be over to your place in a flash....with a cake...to share tea with you (but no marmite!! :shock: ) and see if we couldn't find some reasonable solution... or to just listen..... and what's it.....sit shiva with you? :( :( But that isn't possilbe...except in spirit, October.
I guess you will have to decide what to embrace? A teddy bear? The helpful intentions of people here? The good things you do have in your life? And somehow....set asside/or plan for the things that are missing because they are either.....things you can work toward, hope for, or, not. If not....then there has to be a way to let them go, otherwise you will spend your life....trying to achieve the impossible. You're far too wise for that, I think.
Hope tomorrow is a much better day!! ((((((((October))))))))
GFN
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October, I am so sorry you are struggling like that. I've felt like that in my life more than a few times.
What helps me is sometimes to get out of the house and talk to anyone, people you run into in the grocery or a coffeeshop- just the run of the mill idle chatter can make me feel connected to people again. It doesn't have to be a listener to my problems, sometimes I am my problem; too much introspection.
Another great help was 12 step groups because you get a member list of 10-20 people you can call day or night. This was very helpful to me when I was divorcing as I needed to obsess until I ran out of steam and I met kind souls who would let me do it.
I hope you find those vital human connections.
We all need them.
hugs,
Delphine
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Sorry to be so wimpish yesterday. This morning I had a visit from a friend who God always sends when things are difficult. Many times in the past Anne's visits and phone calls have coincided with the worst days, so maybe I need to remember that a bit more. It was good to see her.
She is not a therapist, but she is a good friend, and has been a bit of a surrogate mum in the past to me, which is worth a lot more. She listens. She doesn't try to give me answers because sometimes there are none. But she listens.
So today I am trying to keep going. Have done the ironing, which was threatening to overtake Everest. Only pillowcases left, and maybe I will get C to do those. We all have to start on the pillowcases!!
Later on I have to take C to see her consultant at the hospital, but we are going to walk, because it is a nice day. Bit windy, but otherwise lovely.
So, life goes on. :? No point wondering whether it is worthwhile or not, really, because there is not a lot of choice.
Thanks for all the love and support, and the understanding.
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My guess is that she isn't a great therapist since she's abandoning you.
The problem is, as with all therapists, she thinks it is a dependency issue. Maybe it is, but not the way they get taught to expect. I have problems attaching to people, and no problem at all detaching. She thinks I want her phone number/email. I don't. I want to know that during the times between sessions I am safe. I have since found a helpline number for a women's abuse group, so that is probably enough. That and friends. But it should not have to be this way, imo.
Is this the gay minister? If so, he's been unreliable and selfish before.
Yes. It is him. And yes, he is sometimes unreliable and selfish. Mostly when I need help. I really should learn to remember patterns, rather than discounting them. You are right, I should have called someone else. I need to tell him not to say 'I will call you later', because sometimes he forgets. And worst of all if I ring and ask him to call, and he doesn't. Because I very rarely do that.
Do you mean you love the universe but it doesn't love you? Sorry, I am a bit confused there.
I mean I try to live by the expectation that love matters, and that giving is more important than receiving. Which is fine for 90% or more of the time, but it falls down if, at the point of need, everyone runs for the hills and leaves you on your own. At that point, you just feel used. Then it is not about love, it is about exploiting someone with too kind or loving or forgiving a nature. You end up not feeling like a kind person. You - I - feel like an idiot for falling for the same old trick all over again.
You don't have to garner any enthusiasm for everyday life. Forget that. And you don't have to be altruistic when you're in some kind of downward spiral. What little things can you do to take care of yourself right now? Do you like tea, or reading in bed?
Yes. Spent a lot of time reading recently. The Woman in White, by Wilkie Collins. Brilliant detective story - real gothic horror if anyone hasn't heard of it. Now finished that one and started the Moonstone. Same author.
Would stay in bed all day except for having C to look after. Probably just as well, really. Still not feeling brilliant, but that is understandable, considering what is going on here. But at least I am carrying on.
If it gets much worse, I will have to resort to the SJW. :lol: (Pathetic joke, but better than nothing.)
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Hey October,
Glad you're feeling a bit better, and well done on getting the ironing done!
If you like Wilkie Collins' "The Woman In White" there's a book by James Wilson called "The Dark Clue" which continues the story of the characters from TWIW. Picked it up a few years ago, and enjoyed it so much I went to get the Collin's book which inspired it!
Good vibes to you best and C,
2cents
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Hiya October:
I'm glad you're feeling better today too!
Sorry to be so wimpish yesterday.
You are entitled to feel whatever it is you feel. No need to appologize for voicing it and reaching out for support. Even if what we say, is not the right thing, or not much help, at least people here try to respond..... because they care. Me included (although I don't know what makes me think I can speak for everyone....but maybe on this one occasion... I will be forgiven?? )
I'm glad your friend came over and listened. I'm so glad you have such a nice friend, who cares about you. That is so nice to hear! :D
GFN
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Even if what we say, is not the right thing, or not much help, at least people here try to respond..... because they care.
GFN
I don't think anyone said the 'wrong thing', whatever that is. I have really enjoyed reading everyone's perspective on this. I only wish I hadn't fallen into a black hole, which prevented me replying or commenting in more detail. Like to say to dear P that I think we are more than just animals with awareness. But I would say that, wouldn't I/ Doesn't make her wrong. Just a different way of looking at the world.
I must try to find the A of C sermon, to continue the debate. It was really moving. :)
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Here it is. I hope others find it as moving as I did. :)
http://www.archbishopofcanterbury.org/sermons_speeches/050511.htm
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Hi October and all:
I'm glad you are climbing out of the darkness enough to comment and respond. That's a good sign!! Good for you!! :D
Even if what we say, is not the right thing, or not much help, at least people here try to respond..... because they care.
GFN
I think this comment was more of a reflection of my own worries/fears that I might not say the right thing...or that I might (heaven help us!!) say something that might make things worse. It was my attempt to let you know that my intention is to help because I care and that I believe there are others here who also do the same (and may not post because of this same worry or who may worry after they post). I know I could say the wrong thing because I don't know everything, or because I might be reacting, or because I may not be always thinking clearly or even getting the point. If that happens, I am so sorry. I don't want to do that. :oops:
From the link you posted:
When we stretch and torment our minds over the problem of evil in the world, we should not forget that the survival of love is just as much of a mystery.
My opinion is that the evil of the world....tests this survival. I don't know why it is here other than to do so. I doubt either thing will ever be gone from here (evil or love) and I seek out the good and to love because I like it a whole lot better than the opposite choice. It seems more reasonable.
I like the way he defined love as:
‘unreasonable’ as so much of the tragedy itself. It is generous and creative, self-forgetful, capable of doing what sometimes seem very small or ineffectual things simply because they are worth doing for the sake of honouring other human beings.
This is truly accurate, if you ask me. It is unreasonable to give, give, give and not be given by others. But what we may not realize is that by giving so much we recieve much more. Maybe not from those particular people we are giving to, but we do receive stuff...points (which may come in many forms)....that add up....that help to make a more loving world .....that give us good feelings about ourselves and others who do the same......that contribute to our success/survival....in the test, or as it has been labelled in that link...the challenge....we have been given.
GFN
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The problem is, as with all therapists, she thinks it is a dependency issue. Maybe it is, but not the way they get taught to expect. I have problems attaching to people, and no problem at all detaching. She thinks I want her phone number/email. I don't. I want to know that during the times between sessions I am safe. I have since found a helpline number for a women's abuse group, so that is probably enough. That and friends. But it should not have to be this way, imo.
If she thinks this is a "dependency issue" then why isn't she talking about it in a therapy session? Instead she just leaves. That is straight abandonment and her calling it dependency is lame and doesn't cut it. I'm not sure why she is a therapist if she dumps all her clients when they're down and considers them overly dependent. :evil:
I mean I try to live by the expectation that love matters, and that giving is more important than receiving. Which is fine for 90% or more of the time, but it falls down if, at the point of need, everyone runs for the hills and leaves you on your own. At that point, you just feel used. Then it is not about love, it is about exploiting someone with too kind or loving or forgiving a nature. You end up not feeling like a kind person. You - I - feel like an idiot for falling for the same old trick all over again.
Do you mean, you put yourself out for people with no thought of reward, but still hope that they will do the same for you? And then they are nowhere to be found when you need them?
P.S. Wilkie Collins was a great writer.
bunny