Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: chutzbagirl on May 09, 2005, 11:38:36 AM
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Hi,
I've just had the Mother's Day from h**l and am in a lot of emotional pain. I was feeling alright the day before - until I woke up on Mother's Day to my daughter in tears because she was unable to surprise me with breakfast. (I woke up earlier than expected.) So I encouraged her to go forward with breakfast and asked her to make some yummy muffins.
The main point of the story is my husband blamed me for my daughter's frustration. Hello, it was Mother's Day, isn't he supposed to give a little? He claims I want the moon when all I really wanted is for him to talk to the kids, coordinate plans and expectations, and have a pleasant day. I'm tired of being accused of wanting or expecting too much when all I really want is some thoughtfulness and value.
This is the story of my life since I was raised by N's. I don't know how much longer I can go on in this hamster wheel. I work and do my best to give and forgive and be the woman I believe God wants me to be, and my tank is still empty. I planned a pedicure for myself so I wouldn't be too disappointed, but the day was still horrible. His scarcasm, accusations and total lack of ability to take ownership scares me. By the afternoon I fell into ugly behavior myself. :( It's just too familiar.
I feel despair today. I really don't know if I can continue in this marriage. I would love to know how it feels to be in a relationship where people give and take on a more equal basis. I don't think my H is a N; but he sure is incapable of consideration and thoughtfulness. He's highly critical and scarcastic and lacks the ability to encourage or be intimate on a regular basis. Every now and then I get a little intimacy - but it is not enough; I'm scraping bottom. I don't think my heart can take it anymore.
I felt so sad for my kids yesterday. They wanted me to have a good day - but I just couldn't fake it. I look at them and it tears my heart out to think of divorce. I don't want to hurt them. I want to give them a firm foundation. But, this marriage is so painful for me. I'm really confused. Then I wonder how much of this pain is still from my past and how much of it is me? The problem is, I believe I've been carrying his responsiblity far too long - we've been married almost 17 years. The problems haven't changed or gotten better. In fact, now that I've been in recovery for a while, his behavior is starting to hurt more.
I've worked really hard at my recovery and spiritual growth. I've made some tough decisions to seperate from harmful family members. I've tried to let what he is able to give me be enough; but unless he is able to begin taking ownership and practicing consideration - I may have to leave.
I struggle with this marriage far more than I let on. He hit a bottom a few months ago due to some health issues that scared the crap out of him. Since his health issues have been somewhat resolved, he's hardened back up.
I know the impact of divorce on children - mine are 7 and 10. I strongly disagree with divorce. I want nothing more than a healthy family. But what do I do when I am blamed for his selfishness and lack of love? I could cite many examples, but I don't want to bore you to tears. One of us being in tears is enough - don't you think? :roll: Suffice it to say that my T, who sees both of us seperately, confirms that I have never known what it is like to receive emotional support from the significant people in my life - spouse included. :cry:
I have read a lot of wisdom on this board. I've enjoyed pming a few of you - but I needed to place this heartache out in the open. Thanks for taking the time to read my thread.
Chutzbagirl
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Hi,
I've just had the Mother's Day from h**l and am in a lot of emotional pain. I was feeling alright the day before - until I woke up on Mother's Day to my daughter in tears because she was unable to surprise me with breakfast. (I woke up earlier than expected.) So I encouraged her to go forward with breakfast and asked her to make some yummy muffins.
The main point of the story is my husband blamed me for my daughter's frustration. Hello, it was Mother's Day, isn't he supposed to give a little? He claims I want the moon when all I really wanted is for him to talk to the kids, coordinate plans and expectations, and have a pleasant day. I'm tired of being accused of wanting or expecting too much when all I really want is some thoughtfulness and value.
I felt so sad for my kids yesterday. They wanted me to have a good day - but I just couldn't fake it. I look at them and it tears my heart out to think of divorce.
Chutzbagirl
I am sorry that you are in so much pain, Chutzbagirl. This sounds like a situation where a day with certain expectations became a kind of lightning conductor, attracting all the problems that kind of roll around normally, but don't actually turn into a storm.
However, I have to say that my first thoughts are for your daughter. Mother's Day is not just about the mother, imo. It is about our relationship with our children. When your children are small Mother's Day is about seeing your children, and accepting the gifts they bring to you to say 'thank you'. I can understand you wanting your h to direct and deliver what you would like to receive, but this approach is not good for your daughter. She needs to hear that whatever she has brought, however late or messy, however inedible, is absolutely marvelous and has made your day complete. That, to me, is what Mother's Day is about for a young child.
To allow your daughter to feel that she got it wrong, and disappointed you, will turn into a message for her that she is wrong, and a disappointment. Maybe there is room for some fence building here.
Whatever is or is not happening within your marriage, I would say that your daughter - both your children - needs to be outside that dynamic, and treated with care and compassion by both of her parents, rather than becoming part of the picture, part of the disappointment. You cannot fake a happy marriage when it is not happy, you are right about that. But you can, and should, imo, fake a smile when your daughter doesn't deliver what you would prefer to have on Mother's Day.
I am sorry if this is not what you want to hear. But reading your post, I am afraid I identified mostly with the child without a voice, who feels that she got it wrong, and let her mother down, and doesn't know what to do.
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I understand how you feel Chutz. I am sorry that your heart aches because there is nothing worse then feeling the pain of a broken heart.
I wanted to also say that I think you shouldnt be so hard on yourself when it comes to your relationship with your husband effecting your kids. You mentioned that you wanted to stay in the marriage for the sake of your kids. HUN, those kids are watching your relationship (good or bad) and by doing so they are learning what a relationship should consists of by your example. I have only been married one time. My husband was not abusive, he was not a bad person at all, I just didnt love the man. I look back and I now realize I married him for all the wrong reasons. He was an excellent provider, an ok father, but I just did not love the man.
I did not want my girls to think that love and marriage should be the way my marriage was. I wanted them to be able to talk and laugh in the car as they were driving with their husbands. I didnt want them to have to be sitting with their arms crossed gazing at the couple in the car beside them with envy as they watched them beam with happiness.
I was misserable, I looked miserable, I felt miserable and I am sure I made everyone around me miserable while I was married to my husband. My kids did not suffer because of our divorce. My kids for the first time in a long time experienced what it was to laugh and enjoy their HOME instead of walking in the door and having to evaluate the mood of the house.
You have two choices on this one. You can either sit down and try to talk to your husband to see if you can help him understand how you feel. Or, you can decide that enough is enough and you can begin to explore who the real you is and you can begin to let the real you live a joyful life.
No matter what you decide, you deserve the right to live your life with the feeling of being loved and cherished. There is nothing worse then feeling all alone when you have someone sitting right beside you. I would rather be alone then to settle on the emptiness of an unbalanced marriage.
/Hugs to you. You are worthy of the fuzzy feelings of hugs hun.
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I was feeling alright the day before - until I woke up on Mother's Day to my daughter in tears because she was unable to surprise me with breakfast. (I woke up earlier than expected.) So I encouraged her to go forward with breakfast and asked her to make some yummy muffins.
This sounds kind of normal. I'm not sure why your husband blamed you for anything. Was he annoyed by your daughter's crying?
My question is, does your therapist also see both of you as a couple? Would she do that? Or could she refer you? I think couples counseling could help by confronting him about his sarcasm and acting out. And he can talk about his frustration in a safe place. I'd give that a try before seriously contemplating divorce.
{{{ chutzbagirl }}}
bunny
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October,
I appreciate your concern for my daughter, and your concern for voiceless children in general. Her tears were not about me rejecting her breakfast; her tears were about her dashed expectations of catching me in bed still asleep. Of course I welcome and accept any gifts my children offer me. My daughter is a wonderful cook for her age and brought me a terrific lunch.
My pain is about my H's lack of thoughtfulness in coordinating plans with the children in an attempt to avoid the type of frustrations my daughter experienced in the first place. There was no communication between him and the kids. She had no idea we were going to early service. I had no idea she wanted to surprise me so badly with breakfast because she was keeping it a surprise. My H blamed me for her frustrations. See, that's the problem, being blamed and accused of not caring when in fact I care very deeply. My daughter does not have a problem with voicelessness, I have worked hard at recovery to give her a voice. I have the problem with voicelessness.
Chutz
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Hi (((((Bunny))))),
Thanks for your concern. We are seeing the same counselor but not together. I saw him today and he mentioned he may want to see us together. My internal response is "whatever" - I'm starting to loose hope in his ability or desire to become thoughtful and considerate. I'm tired of coming up short with emotionally unavailable people. I like to give and help. I'm tired of facing scarcasm and judgement.
I feel a little afraid about where I'm at. I've never been this hopeless or far away from him before. If anything good is gonna come out of this situation it needs to come from God because I'm done.
Chutz
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(((((((((Chutz)))))))))
mudpup
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My pain is about my H's lack of thoughtfulness in coordinating plans with the children in an attempt to avoid the type of frustrations my daughter experienced in the first place. There was no communication between him and the kids. She had no idea we were going to early service....{etc.}
Some thoughts...
Your husband sounds like he lacks knowledge of children. I'm thinking he is clueless, doesn't understand children, has little knowledge of child development, is immature himself, and doesn't feel like putting himself out for anyone else. Then when there is a consequence (daughter upset, crying), he can't handle the guilt and shame and starts acting like an ass. A good therapist can help this situation by confronting your husband about his acting out, and by helping you with assertion. Is your therapist qualified to do couples therapy? I'd definitely give it a try, you have nothing to lose.
bunny
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((((((((((Chutz))))))))))
How poopy, after the Sunday before.
I can't express myself in civil language re your husbozo, so I won't even try.
:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :( :( :( :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:
I will say, though, that he can do a lot better than he is doing. And if he can't clean up his act, what is he doing going to church on Sundays? Fibbing to you or to himself? Because he sure s**t ain't foolin' God.
GRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Dear Chutzbagirl:
I look at them and it tears my heart out to think of divorce. I don't want to hurt them. I want to give them a firm foundation.
Right now it sounds like you feel confused, a bit trapped and hopeless. Who wouldn't be? Your husband treats you sarcastically, judging you constantly and you know this is not what a loving relationship is like.
Good for you for mentioning to the T about him seeing both of you. I think this will help. It will help you to voice what you feel and what this experience is like for you. It will help you to see the reaction of your husband. It will help to have a "witness", the T, who will hopefully help you through to the next step, in your private sessions.
Seeing their parents unhappy, unloving, communicating negatively...will hurt your children too. So staying the way things are is probably something you will not be able to tolerate much longer because...you want to give your children a firm foundation.
You don't have to make any decisions immediately, right? Maybe try the therapy together and see how it goes.
My prayers for you and your family, Chutzbagirl. I know this is very hard and upsetting. Don't let it tear you appart. Keep your mind open to positive change.....an improved marital situation and if that doesn't happen, you can then be open to other choices.
((((((((((Chutzbagirl))))))))))
GFN
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I think Mother's Day is a day when the Dad and the kids 'conspire' to 'surprise' Mum.
Even if this means that it 'leaks out' but you and hubby love each other and your kids to 'pretend' to be surprised.
The kids are happy, you both are happy and it's a lovely family situation.
I think HE could have done more to nurture your daughter's surprise to you.
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Sorry for you rotten day, Chutzbagirl
I can relate to your feelings, my marriage was like that. I chose divorce over slow death and the hypocrisy of calling what was happening in my household a marriage. No piece of paper and no recitation by some minister make a marriage and broken homes that break over and over are worse than ones with one clean break, in my opinion.
But you do not have to let your Hs words and moods determine your moods and actions. I got a lot of help from AlAnon's concept of detachment. I learned to watch how I put my faith in expectations, and made those expectations a kind of Higher Power. Great serenity comes from detaching from expectations and, moment by moment, accepting What Is, letting What Is be What Is. I know it can sound very jargon-y yet when I let go of my expectations, and stop pushing for change, sometimes the day smoothes out of its own accord. And if not, trying to change other people or hope they act differently, expends the energy I'd be better off using to keep my own sanity and serenity.
I'm sorry you are hurting.
Happy day after Mother's Day!
Delphine
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chutzbagirl, I'm sorry that you feel so depleted right now. I've been in a very similar relationship with my wife, also for 17 years.
The main point of the story is my husband blamed me for my daughter's frustration. Hello, it was Mother's Day, isn't he supposed to give a little? He claims I want the moon when all I really wanted is for him to talk to the kids, coordinate plans and expectations, and have a pleasant day. I'm tired of being accused of wanting or expecting too much when all I really want is some thoughtfulness and value.
That actually MAY be too much for him to do, right now or maybe ever. Not that there is anything wrong with you wanting and even expecting that in a spouse. He may be ignorant of how to do that, he may not care enough to do that, he may be too heavily defended to change. I agree with others here that the only possible way to know is to give joint therapy a try.
This is the story of my life since I was raised by N's. I don't know how much longer I can go on in this hamster wheel. I work and do my best to give and forgive and be the woman I believe God wants me to be, and my tank is still empty. I planned a pedicure for myself so I wouldn't be too disappointed, but the day was still horrible. His scarcasm, accusations and total lack of ability to take ownership scares me. By the afternoon I fell into ugly behavior myself. :( It's just too familiar.
What do you need to do to take care of yourself and get your needs met? Maybe give less in situations where you don't get enough in return? That isn't being selfish, that's taking care of yourself. Set boundaries with your H so that sarcasm and unrealistic comments are not allowed around you? What he says is about him, not you. Unfortunately that doesn't always keep it from hurting, not so much from the comment, but that he didn't care enough to NOT make the nasty comment in the first place.
I feel despair today. I really don't know if I can continue in this marriage. I would love to know how it feels to be in a relationship where people give and take on a more equal basis. I don't think my H is a N; but he sure is incapable of consideration and thoughtfulness. He's highly critical and scarcastic and lacks the ability to encourage or be intimate on a regular basis. Every now and then I get a little intimacy - but it is not enough; I'm scraping bottom. I don't think my heart can take it anymore.
I'm sure that your H IS capable of consideration and thoughtfulness. He chooses not to for some reason. Like most of us, I expect he is simply trying to take care of himself, but it doesn't sound like he does it in a healthy way. He may even be using the verbal abuse to keep you far enough away for him to feel safe with the distance. I believe this is the case in my marriage. I suspect the minimal intimacy is either to meet his needs when it does actually feel safe enough for him, or to give just enough to keep you on the hook.
I felt so sad for my kids yesterday. They wanted me to have a good day - but I just couldn't fake it. I look at them and it tears my heart out to think of divorce. I don't want to hurt them. I want to give them a firm foundation. But, this marriage is so painful for me. I'm really confused. Then I wonder how much of this pain is still from my past and how much of it is me? The problem is, I believe I've been carrying his responsiblity far too long - we've been married almost 17 years. The problems haven't changed or gotten better. In fact, now that I've been in recovery for a while, his behavior is starting to hurt more.
I really resonate with your last statement. The more aware of the good possibilities we are, the more painful putting up with unhealthy situations is for us. That the problems have not only not improved, but not even changed over this time is telling to me. There are powerful reasons for things to remain as they are, unchanged despite the passage of time. I think it will take even more powerful reasons to change this dynamic. If you can't even fake being OK anymore despite wanting to, you are very depleted. Don't beat yourself up about it. Do what you need to do to get your very important needs met.
I've worked really hard at my recovery and spiritual growth. I've made some tough decisions to seperate from harmful family members. I've tried to let what he is able to give me be enough; but unless he is able to begin taking ownership and practicing consideration - I may have to leave.
I struggle with this marriage far more than I let on. He hit a bottom a few months ago due to some health issues that scared the crap out of him. Since his health issues have been somewhat resolved, he's hardened back up.
chutzbagirl, this sounds very co-dependent to me. (Believe me, I know, I am very coey!) You seem to be giving him responsibility for fixing the situation for you. If he does x then you will be OK. What if he never chooses to do x, will you choose to never be OK? You are responsible for your life, regardless of what your H does or doesn't do. Take back your power and your responsibility and you will feel much more hopeful and capable. Excercising that responsbility for yourself is difficult and even unpleasant at times, but the rewards of confidence and OK'ness are irreplaceable.
I know the impact of divorce on children - mine are 7 and 10. I strongly disagree with divorce. I want nothing more than a healthy family. But what do I do when I am blamed for his selfishness and lack of love? I could cite many examples, but I don't want to bore you to tears. One of us being in tears is enough - don't you think? :roll: Suffice it to say that my T, who sees both of us seperately, confirms that I have never known what it is like to receive emotional support from the significant people in my life - spouse included. :cry:
You know the effect of divorce on your children. Are you considering the effect of mom not being able to even fake being happy anymore on them? As other wise ones here have written, sometimes its a choice between the lesser of two evils. I don't advocate either leaving or staying, only doing what you need to do to love, nurture and care for yourself. I suspect that an important part of that for you is getting emotional support from other people. Getting it from your H would be ideal, but he may not be able to do that for you either on your timeline or ever.
chatzbagirl, I'm sorry if any of this sounds harsh. Believe me, I want to help. You will do what you need to do when you are ready for it, just like all of us. I pray that time is soon so you can begin to feel happy again and smile genuinely. (((((((((chutzbagirl)))))))
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((((Longtire))))
Thanks for your kind and thoughtful reply. You didn't even come close to harsh. :)
I know some parts of our stories are similar. It was hard for me to read your thread. I do think your spouse may be more difficult than mine - but that could be my codependency talking. I am very good at minimizing.
I am not functioning very well today. Fortunately my little boy has a friend over and my girl is in a good place - hanging with the doggies and doing her homework. I do my best to shield them from the adult stress. But, I know I don't do it perfectly and that breaks my heart.
I am physically impacted - you know the loss of appetite, heavy heartedness, fogginess, etc...When I lose my appetite then it's really bad. I love food! :wink:
I guess this Mother's Day was the straw on the camel's back. What makes it really tough for me is that I grieve being denied the blessing of actively loving my own Mother. So, being neglected when I do my best feels like a slap on the face.
I don't really think there is anything left for me to initiate at this time. We have been in couple's counseling before. I was less aware and much more co back then. 5 years of Al Anon and therapy has to be worth something right? I am at the awareness and powerless place. Just waiting for God to give me a clue as to what to do. I like the slogan, "Dont just do something, sit there!" :roll:
It's really up to my H. I know I can't go on with this neglect, blame and lack of intimacy. It is a slow death - in fact death seems like it would be better sometimes. :( No plans, but the thoughts do cross one's mind during times like this.
I am willing to do what God wants whether that means braving singleness and a lowering of my standard of living for a while, or working through this painful marriage. There needs to be a big shift - I need to stop being his diaper! :P
Chutz :?
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My H blamed me for her frustrations. See, that's the problem, being blamed and accused of not caring when in fact I care very deeply. My daughter does not have a problem with voicelessness, I have worked hard at recovery to give her a voice. I have the problem with voicelessness.
Chutz
Sorry if what I wrote added to your distress, Chutz. I misunderstood what was happening when your daughter was crying.
You are right, your H should not blame you for what is not within your power to change. I am really sorry this happened.
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All I can say is that God doesn't want you to be this unhappy...........
Please look after yourself and see the value you have. It's demonstrable from your postings on here, you are loving, warm, compassionate and 'dying' from the lack of love in your life.
By all means, try to sort out your marriage, I am such a Romantic because I have a fantastic marriage. My husband is so uncomplicated, kind, funny, understanding and doesn't have an N bone in his body. I am so lucky to have him, but he has me too!!!!!!!
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Thanks for your response October. :)
I understand the knee-jerk reaction to protect the children first. I'm built that way too. Sometimes I wonder if I've given my children too much of a voice. :lol: They certainly don't have problems expressing how they are feeling or what they want and need. Honest confession - sometimes I'm even a little jealous of their freedom. Maybe I'll get there someday. :?
chutz
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Serena,
Thanks so much for your encouragement. :) I always love hearing from people that are enjoying wonderful marriages. It gives me hope that it could actually happen to me someday.
I think you posted the "Wheel" poem on the Mother's Day thread. If it wasn't please forgive my foggy memory today. Anyways, that was a touching poem - I was grateful to have read it.
Take care - and I'm determined to take care of myself...whatever that may mean.
chutz
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Thanks for your response October. :)
I understand the knee-jerk reaction to protect the children first. I'm built that way too. Sometimes I wonder if I've given my children too much of a voice. :lol: They certainly don't have problems expressing how they are feeling or what they want and need. Honest confession - sometimes I'm even a little jealous of their freedom. Maybe I'll get there someday. :?
chutz
I know what you mean!! My daughter has a voice, same as yours, and I really envy her that!! It comes under giving our children all those things we never had, and always wanted. :)
I am honestly very sorry that you find yourself in an impossible situation at present. I worked hard for four years to keep my marriage going, back in the Dark Ages, but in the end it was not possible. I am sorry that you find yourself fighting this battle too. I am very aware of my daughter having been caught in the crossfire there, and most likely projected a lot of my guilt about that situation in what I wrote. The marriage has gone, but the guilt remains. :?
I hope things settle down more peacefully for you. Only thing I learned in however many years of marriage; men can't change. Women have to change, and stop expecting that they can. Took me a long time to learn that one. :(
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((((Longtire))))
Thanks for your kind and thoughtful reply. You didn't even come close to harsh. :)
I'm glad to hear that. I certainly don't want to add to your burdens. :(
I know some parts of our stories are similar. It was hard for me to read your thread. I do think your spouse may be more difficult than mine - but that could be my codependency talking. I am very good at minimizing.
I know that feeling. I made every excuse for my wife for years, until I realized that it was up to her to justify her own behavior, not me. I have come to the conclusion that there is a line "out there." Behavior that crosses the line is too painful to be around. It doesn't matter whether it is just over the line or so far past the line that you can't see it anymore. Over the line is over the line and quibbling about degrees of "badness" after that is pointless. Your reaction seems to indicate that your H behavior is over the line for you.
It's really up to my H. I know I can't go on with this neglect, blame and lack of intimacy. It is a slow death - in fact death seems like it would be better sometimes. :( No plans, but the thoughts do cross one's mind during times like this.
chutzbagirl, is your H following a definite plan to address these issues? Just going to therapy is not a plan. Saying something like, "I want to stop being sarcastic and blaming and I'm willing to examine my baggage until I can change my behavior," is more of a plan. Has H ever shared his goals for therpay with you? If he hasn't told you that he is doing this, then I think it is unlikely that he will actually ever do this. I would not count on "luck" of him accidentally addressing his issues. This kind of work requires commitment and focus.
I am willing to do what God wants whether that means braving singleness and a lowering of my standard of living for a while, or working through this painful marriage. There needs to be a big shift - I need to stop being his diaper! :P
I don't believe that God wants any of this for you or to see you in such pain. That isn't to say he can't use this situation to help you grow and mature. He won't do it for you, though. He expects you to excercise your own will in this. That means you have to take a chance on being wrong. Of course, you may just end up being very right! In any case, we will be here to listen and talk with as much as you need us. I'll be praying for you to find peace.
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Chutzpa,
I'm so sorry for your not-so-wonderful Mother's Day. I've certainly had more than a few of them. Now that my H is not around I'm just so grateful for whatever my children do that I am never disappointed anymore.
I know the fear of what the divorce will do to the children. It was really all I cared about in the beginning and my own pain was secondary. Fortunately, my kids are older (almost 17 and 20), so they are able to process the whole experience from a more adult-like perspective. In our case however, they never saw parents who did not get along and always assumed we had a wonderful marriage. In some ways, that may have made it more difficult because it came as such a shock.
My son always has his voice and I know exactly how he feels about things. My daughter, on the other hand, has a difficult time expressing her feelings so I always have to be so careful how I approach things with her.
My T has told me many times that my children will be better off in the long run if they see their mother in a loving, respectful relationship rather than one that was empty. If you think there is still hope by being in couples counselling, I would certainly encourage you to do so. But if that river has run dry and things are not getting any better, you may find it beneficial to pull the plug, for both your sake and the children as well.
I hope you can find the strength to work through this in the most healthy way for you.
((((((((chutzagirl))))))))))
Brigid
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Chutzbagirl
I only have a minute to post.
My T has told me many times that my children will be better off in the long run if they see their mother in a loving, respectful relationship rather than one that was empty. If you
A study done on Married with strong father figures the children did not get into as many problems with drugs and other trouble.
Single with strong mothers, kids did good
Married with Poor Father skills the highest for kids doing drugs and getting in trouble.
The father who is abusive and not a good role model did more harm.
Something to think about.
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Chutzpahgirl: I have had a few mother's days, birthdays, Christmases, etc etc like that. It does stink. I'm sorry.
I was married to two losers in that department. Even if I SPELLED IT OUT, exactly what I wanted (though I admit, I resented that I needed to do that, for Pete's sake!!), I still felt that I had to MAKE it happen, which of course, ruined the holiday from the get go.
So now, I am in a wonderful relationship with a wonderful man, who thinks up fun stuff to do when our children are together, but I have to tell you, he is still a bit clueless. I think when we women were watching/reading things about how happy people do holidays with children, the men just weren't watching!!
Now the difference would be, that you aren't just talking about holidays, you are talking about your whole marriage arent' you?
It is horrible to feel that you are responsible for most or all of the emotional part of a marriage. It is NOT suppose to be that way. No, men don't need to be mindreaders, but if your husband is that tuned out that he is not even concerned that you are unhappy, I think you have a real decision to make.
I stayed with my ex because of the kids, and then I left him because of the kids. They deserve to see what love is.....and at least they would see it in how I love myself. I simply could not pass on his family's dysfunction to another generation (never mind this is MY life too!!!)
So I will send you lots of love, light and strength while you step foot in figuring this out. Much love.
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Thanks Brigid, Bunny, Mum, Serena, Stormy, Longtire, MP, and anybody else I forgot.
Well, he came home and acted as if nothing was wrong. He apologized to our daughter for not communicating with her better. That's great, but he is neglecting me. When I let him know I felt devalued and ignored he very logically pointed out that he apologized for his part yesterday.
Hmm, ya know what, it doesn't feel like love. I don't feel loved and valued. I always thought it was my fault; he readily accuses me of having unrealistic expectations. Is it unrealistic to desire to be thought of and appreciated in a warm and loving way? Is it unrealistic to desire a husband that desires me? After all these years of wishing he would want me more, I can't bring myself to accept his advances this past week. My T said it sounds like I am shutting down. Maybe I am.
I told him, before he went off to the gym, that the emotional neglect is unacceptable and I need change in order to remain in the relationship. He asked me where I planned on going. The Tin Man has more heart than than the man I chose to marry. He really thinks its me and my issues. I used to think it was me too. But when I see that I am capable of deep relationships with other people, and other people value me, I realize his assesments of me are incorrect. He is incapable of relationship. If I didn't remind him he would not have sent his own M a card. That was after I told him I was too tired to pick up cards for his family this year. His parents, like him, are emotionally void.
That's all for now - duty calls.
chutz
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Hon, you should have titled this thread S.O.B.
((((((((((Chutz))))))))))
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Chutz,
I told him, before he went off to the gym, that the emotional neglect is unacceptable and I need change in order to remain in the relationship. He asked me where I planned on going.
That is one stone cold reply. It sounds like a dare. Or maybe wishful thinking. :evil: It sounds like he is getting worse not better. :( :evil:
Is it unrealistic to desire to be thought of and appreciated in a warm and loving way?
No. Its your right as his wife.
Is it unrealistic to desire a husband that desires me?
No. See above.
After all these years of wishing he would want me more, I can't bring myself to accept his advances this past week. My T said it sounds like I am shutting down.
The idiot is crushing your spirit.
He really thinks its me and my issues.
Maybe. Maybe he's just manipulating you. Maybe he's just scared of examining himself, so he lays it at your feet.
I still hope and pray your marriage can be saved Chutz. But, as you said, it is up to him; you are done. You can't change him. He has to desire to change himself, but it sounds like he's hardening his heart. :cry:
(((((Chutz)))))
mudpup
PS. I hope forgetting things like the occasional card doesn't make one a bad husband. :oops: :oops: :oops:
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Chutz, is there any chance this **gentleman** is cheating on you?
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Chutz, is there any chance this **gentleman** is cheating on you?
Thats what I was thinking but didn't have the gonads to ask. Not sure whether that says more about me or you Stormy. :?
mud
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(((((Stormy)))))
:lol: :lol: :lol:
You are funny. I like women who can use all their words. (Only if little ears are not around of course.)
Everybody,
Yesterday would have been completely unbearable without all of you. I was not able to share with my friends in my non-cyber life yet. I guess I'll have to do that today. :roll:
As of this minute, God seems to be telling me to hang-in-here. I have withdrawn from the man. Surface talk with out addressing reality is unacceptable to me. His lack of emotional responsiblity is unacceptable to me. This is a big issue for him - learning to take responsiblity for his emotional impact on other people. My T confirmed he is not a N - so there is hope for growth. I know my daughter senses some stress - but fortunately, I have withdrawn discretely. 8) I'm sure he is getting the message loud and clear.
In the past I have been quick to re-attatch after these types of incidents because I couldn't handle feeling abandoned. So he never suffered the consequences of acting like a (feel free to fill in the blank). Now, I am willing to let him sit in the dog-house for as long as it takes for him to realize he is acting like a b*****d. ( Did I just say that? ) :oops: If I sense God is asking me to leave - I shall pack us up and find a place to stay.
I am feeling stronger today. My heart is still stinging, no doubt - but the picture is becoming clearer. Isn't that the problem with those of us raised/impacted by N's - it is hard to know if we have been selfish or if it really is the other person.
Ugh - this is hard work.
chutz :?
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Cheating on me? I don't think so. I don't think he has the emotional or physical reserves to give to anybody. If he is I pray God will let me find out asap. That would make the answer clear.
Honestly - I think Bunny nailed him on the head. I'd quote her if I could do the blasted quotes. (Mud, I tried again yesterday and just couldn't do it! :roll: ) It takes effort for me to figure out details and I'm not in the mood - I'm an ENFP if you couldn't already tell. :P (That's Meyer's Brigg's personality jargon. Interesting stuff...)
Anyways, back to the issue, Bunny nailed it when she described him as clueless and unwilling to put himself out for others. When he faces the consequences of his actions he starts acting like a horses behind. (I've already hit my cuss quotient for the day on this thread I'm sure. :lol: )
His low desire for intimacy I think has more to do with his low grade depression and almost nonexistent desire for emotional intimacy. I married the man when I was 20 and completely in denial about my stuff. How could I have known. Honestly, don't think I could have made a good choice until this year.
He saw me as a cute, achieving, bubbly, people-person. (My false-self worked well for a long time - kind of miss it.) I saw him as the Rock of Gibralter. (sp?) I just didn't quite understand that if a person seems like a rock on the outside, then their heart may be made of a rocky type substance as well. :(
Mudpup, missing the occasional card does not make you a bad husband. You know your wife has a gem. (Silly Mudpup :) )
I'm going for a long walk. I'll check in later.
(Hey, maybe I'll loose the last few pounds now that I've lost my appetite. :roll: )
chutz :wink:
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Well, he came home and acted as if nothing was wrong. He apologized to our daughter for not communicating with her better. That's great, but he is neglecting me. When I let him know I felt devalued and ignored he very logically pointed out that he apologized for his part yesterday.
Note that your H is shame-based and can't tolerate apologizing directly. To him this is life-or-death. He unconsciously feels an apology is total humiliation and subjugation (death). He needs to learn how to apologize without feeling utterly degraded and shamed to the core. The therapist has to teach him.
Chutzbagirl, this is not about you. Unfortunately you are the target of it. And that can't go on. A good couples therapist can make himself the target so that the wife is spared. Can you phone your T between sessions when you're despondent about your H's selfishness?
bunny
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Bunny,
How can it be that you seem to nail my H? Thank you. When I asked him for a sympathetic apology he said, "What, do you want me to grovel?"
Inside I was thinking, "You better grovel you *****." But, I said, apologizing from the heart does not mean groveling. Hmmm, I will also call my T later - good advice.
I'm not getting a lot done these days - but that's life I guess.
chutz
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I know about your husband because I have the same problem he has. I've gotten much better and it was couples therapy that helped me.
bunny
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Bunny,
Is it really possible that a man as selfish as my H can become as insightful and encouraging as you? I can't even fathom the possiblity.
If you would like to pm me about your starting point and journey to wellness I would love to know your story. My T keeps telling me he sees potential in my H. I just don't see it right now.
I'm trying to be easy on myself and not beat myself up for being unproductive today. I don't have the energy. I want to save what I do have for the kids when they get home from school.
chutz
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Chutz - you are getting something done, it's just not exterior and doesn't result in paper or money or groceries...
((((((((((bunny)))))))))), your honesty puts me in awe.
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I am willing to let him sit in the dog-house for as long as it takes for him to realize he is acting like a b*****d. ( Did I just say that? ) :oops:
Hey chutz
as a fellow asterisks syndrome sufferer, do you notice how hard it is to say
b-asterisk-asterisk-asterisk-asterisk-asterisk-d? talk about tongue twisters! :)
simple way to do quotes: type in the BBcode. I'll do it with extra spaces so the system doesn't recognize it as code.
To quote mud, you would type [quote = "mud"], without the spaces on either side of the =, to start. Then paste in what he said, and at the end, type [/ quote] without the space after the slash.
to quote without using the persons name, you type [ quote] to start and [ /quote] at the end of the section, again without the extra space behind the first square bracket.
woiks like a chahm.
anytime you need to cuss to a fellow sailor lady, just PM me and let 'er rip, with or without asterisks. Peter was a sailor. I bet he knew some real interesting Aramaic words :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Will the last person to post on this thread please identify yourself. You sound like a lot of fun to post with....
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oh that was me. sorry, my brains are soggy newspaper and i forget to sign when i'm not logged in.
d'oh!
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chutzbagirl, I agree with Stormchild. You are doing HARD work right now. It is the internal kind that you can't see, but means far more in the end than any concrete action you could take.
The more I hear about your story, the more similarities I see to my own situation. The "cluelessness" and avoidance of intimacy. Like my wife, your H is absolutely convinced that you are the cause of all "problems" and indeed "create" the problems where none exist (at least to him). If he was truly engaged in your relationship, he would be offering help to you solve "your problems", especially if he thought that could help improve his situation. After all, haven't you reached out to him to try to get a better relationship ofr yourself?
People who act this way blame and occasionally give the appearance of reaching out in order to look good, but never actually reach out to have a relationship in a mutual way. It doesn't seem like a very happy way to live, but their fear must win out over happiness. :(
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Great, just great....
Spoke with my T, he said H does have some changing to do but will never be the warm fuzzy type - he is very intellectual. A high TJ for those of you who are familiar with Myer's Briggs.
He recommends I forgive the man and move towards him. T continues to have hope. Bunny, I pray that you are an example of what my H is capable of. One of the steps in the 12 step program I'm in, forget which one, talks about making amends. Since I'm not in any contact with my M, I'm unable to do any amends or practice unconditional love in person. So, I think my H is my living button pusher who I get the opportunity to practice forgiveness and patience with. :x
Oh bother, the thought of forgiving him feels like a hot coal in my heart. He really hurt my feelings. :( He is just about 2 short of 70 x 7.
Trudging along,
chutz
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Say whaaaaat?
Your T thinks YOU are the one who needs to do the work here???? YOU are the one who has to do the accomodating??????
Doesn't he think you've already done rather more than your share for years and years?
Scuse me, I'm gonna defer on this one to Bunny and Longtire, they have more of a right to comment on this than I do, just now. But:
Lots and lots of asterisks, and a bunch of these things too @*%!(%$++^@("{^^$!(*!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Spoke with my T, he said H does have some changing to do but will never be the warm fuzzy type - he is very intellectual. A high TJ for those of you who are familiar with Myer's Briggs.
I take umbrage with this description. I am very INTJ. It does affect HOW I deal with things, but it does NOT keep me from being warm and fuzzy. Besides, it is logical :) to me that if I have hurt someone's feelings that I need to apologize and work to make the situation right (as well as figure out how NOT to do that again in the future).
Scuse me, I'm gonna defer on this one to Bunny and Longtire, they have more of a right to comment on this than I do, just now.
I don't know about having more of a right. I don't feel like I have things figured out at all. But, I'll respond anyway....
He recommends I forgive the man and move towards him. T continues to have hope. Bunny, I pray that you are an example of what my H is capable of. One of the steps in the 12 step program I'm in, forget which one, talks about making amends. Since I'm not in any contact with my M, I'm unable to do any amends or practice unconditional love in person. So, I think my H is my living button pusher who I get the opportunity to practice forgiveness and patience with. :x
Did your T say why he thought you should move toward your H? What does he have hope of happening? Why does he believe that will happen? I understand that it can be a good thing for the T to hold onto hope or other feelings when we can't for ourselves. It just seems like it would be a lot easier on you if you knew more about why your T believes these things. Maybe he knows something you don't or maybe he is the one who doesn't have all the information.
Forgiveness is a good thing and you can do it all by yourself. Reconciliation depends on the other person taking steps toward you as well. Otherwise, you are simply tolerating a problem situation, which will not change. I thought that amends are what you do to make up for your hurting someone else, not for being the one who is hurt. As for patience, everyone has their limits. I think it is better to start setting consequences (boundaries) for problems before reaching the end of your patience. Does your H seem distraught about you pulling back? Has he noticed?
Oh bother, the thought of forgiving him feels like a hot coal in my heart. He really hurt my feelings. :( He is just about 2 short of 70 x 7.
chutzbagirl, forgiveness is for you so you don't have to carry around a heavy load of anger and resentment. I recommend it for that reason. :) Reconciliation and opening yourself back up to be hurt again with no expectation of different behavior is a separate decision. The choices and timing are up to you when you are ready.
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He recommends I forgive the man and move towards him. T continues to have hope.
He has a point, but this isn't what I'd recommend saying over the phone. It's not the right time. Anyway, your T is saying you're more functional than your husband and you would get more success from being understanding than from being punitive. It's a question of pragmatism, really.
You don't have to forgive your husband right now. You're very angry and he is being a pill. And now you're angry with your therapist. (tell him that as soon as you can.) I've actually been on both sides here: his and yours. When you're a bit calmer, realize that he is in a life-or-death struggle even if you can't understand it. This is not about you. Try to detach from his behavior because it's really not about you. And find ways to communicate with this man that don't involve intense feelings. That will only frighten the heck out of him. The calmer you are, the better response you'll get out of him.
I dont' know whether he is a big loser in general, or whether you've had a decent marriage.There are probably ways to be with him. You may have to be the one who re-adapts first. But he is in therapy which is pretty hopeful.
bunny
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Hi ya'all,
I take umbrage with this description. I am very INTJ. It does affect HOW I deal with things, but it does NOT keep me from being warm and fuzzy. Besides, it is logical :) to me that if I have hurt someone's feelings that I need to apologize and work to make the situation right (as well as figure out how NOT to do that again in the future).
Longtire, how long ago did you take that test? I totally challenge the results. If you're not a 'feeler' than I'm stumped. I live with two TJ's - husband and daughter; son is cut like his mommy = FP. We could go back and forth on that one. :wink:
Anyways, Bunny, no he is not a total looser. He has been a committed provider. He is just not available emotionally and tends to be critical, judgemental and caustic. Sometimes we can have a good time together. We connect intellectually - it's the heart stuff that is bringing me down. He does not put himself out for others. I love putting myself out for others - planning parties, encouraging people, helping people grow. I have to be careful to not give too much.
He is very fearful about things like finances and his health. He does not have the ability to be empathic with my pain. Recovery has been a very lonely path for me. At first he fought my recovery tooth and nail. I hung tough and it paid off. When things get ugly he accuses me of not making progress - painful stuff. My emotional/spiritual connections with him are difficult at best. Why is he in a life and death struggle. I don't get it. Why are my emotions so scary for him? Can you help me understand. If I can get some empathy for the man it would really help.
chutz
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I take umbrage with this description. I am very INTJ. It does affect HOW I deal with things, but it does NOT keep me from being warm and fuzzy. Besides, it is logical :) to me that if I have hurt someone's feelings that I need to apologize and work to make the situation right (as well as figure out how NOT to do that again in the future).
Longtire, how long ago did you take that test? I totally challenge the results. If you're not a 'feeler' than I'm stumped. I live with two TJ's - husband and daughter; son is cut like his mommy = FP. We could go back and forth on that one. :wink:
I have taken the test several times and the result is pretty consistent. I do straddle the line between INTJ/INTP. Keep in mind, that this just indicates the "preferred" way of dealing with things. People with no "T" in there still have the ability to think and people with no "F" still have feelings. That was the point I didn't seem to make very well the first time.
Anyways, Bunny, no he is not a total looser. He has been a committed provider. He is just not available emotionally and tends to be critical, judgemental and caustic. Sometimes we can have a good time together. We connect intellectually - it's the heart stuff that is bringing me down. He does not put himself out for others. I love putting myself out for others - planning parties, encouraging people, helping people grow. I have to be careful to not give too much.
Can you get the heart stuff you need somewhere else? (I am not talking about an affair.) Is there enough good in this marriage for you if you can get some needs met outside?
He is very fearful about things like finances and his health. He does not have the ability to be empathic with my pain. Recovery has been a very lonely path for me. At first he fought my recovery tooth and nail. I hung tough and it paid off. When things get ugly he accuses me of not making progress - painful stuff. My emotional/spiritual connections with him are difficult at best. Why is he in a life and death struggle. I don't get it. Why are my emotions so scary for him? Can you help me understand. If I can get some empathy for the man it would really help.
I get the feeling from your posts that he is actually very fearful and insecure. Striking out may be his way of feeling capable and powerful. Unfortunately I think that his understanding and accepting he is an adult even though he may not always feel like it emotionally is the only way to truly address his problems.
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Anyways, Bunny, no he is not a total looser. He has been a committed provider. He is just not available emotionally and tends to be critical, judgemental and caustic.
Maybe being a committed provider is his way of showing his love for his family and his wife. The critical, judgmental and caustic junk is because he is terrified. The terror is acceptable but not the behavior. I hope the therapist can help him stop that crap.
He does not put himself out for others. I love putting myself out for others - planning parties, encouraging people, helping people grow. I have to be careful to not give too much.
It looks like he's pretty different from you. He's more selfish but possibly more introverted. I'm more like him. I would hate to plan a party even for someone I loved. I'm assuming he resented being asked to organize a Mother's Day breakfast and passive-aggressively neglected the whole thing. It was probably too much to ask of him. This makes him selfish but I would also look at his basic personality and change my expectations accordingly.
When things get ugly he accuses me of not making progress - painful stuff. My emotional/spiritual connections with him are difficult at best.
He's very threatened by the recovery work you've done. When he attacks you, it's really a self-attack on his own inadequacy. I'd ignore it or tell him to just back off. If you were in couples therapy, there might be boundaries about what cannot be said to the other person (i.e., making destructive behaviors taboo).
Why is he in a life and death struggle. I don't get it. Why are my emotions so scary for him? Can you help me understand. If I can get some empathy for the man it would really help.
He's in a life-or-death struggle because of his childhood. I don't know what happened but it made him feel humiliated and ashamed. He is terrified of being shamed again and will defend himself against any signs of it happening. His idea of shame may be different from yours. If you know about his childhood (I don't), you will probably know where it comes from. Your emotions are scary to him because he feels everything will go out of control, bad stuff will happen, he will possibly have a heart attack or something, and he feels helpless. My suggestion to a therapist would be to ask your H to call him when he's angry and judgmental and have the therapist contain those feelings rather than his wife. It may not be what your therapist wants to do, but I think it would be a good idea. Just my opinion that he needs a container and you can't be the container all the time.
bunny
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Morning,
I'm really sludging though this one - can't even blame it on PMS. :roll: Two opposing thoughts keep running though my mind:
1. A dandy little Al Anon slogan, "Don't leave before your miracle happens."
2. Get out and run for your life no miracle is gonna happen.
I am not encouraged by his behavior. Alright, honest confession, (go easy on me folks it's been a tough few days and I'm feeling pretty banged up), I want him to come home with a gift and a card and express some remorse for his behavior. I want him to OWN the fact that he really hurt my feelings. I think I should get a redo of M's day! :x
M's day means more to me than just my kids telling me they love me - although that is beyond precious in and of itself. It is a sign post for how far I've come as a M and how much I've detached from my own M. He has thrown many unkind accusations my way about not making progress and being 'consumed by my M'. I need him to notice, I need some affirmation. I want him to see how brave I've been and how hard I've fought; for myself and for my family. I allowed myself to be 'psychologically dismantled' (my term for intensive, painful therapy) because I knew that unless I got some healing I'd never survive this marriage because of all the buttons he pushes. I still don't know if I'll survive it.
When I go upstairs to bed and I hear him laughing at the TV I feel so mad inside. I think, "How can he be laughing when I'm dying from loneliness?" I want connection with him - it's very surreal to look at him and realize he is not capable. What's the point?
I think my T may be full of it. Maybe he's just falling into his own codependency and expecting me to do too much. I don't know if I can do what he is asking of me. Maybe my miracle will come with my H, but it sure doesn't look like it today. Mud, I need a shoulder. :cry:
Longtire, please forgive me for assuming I know more about your temperament than you do. :roll: You just feel 'warm' to me. I guess since I live with a very fearful and withdrawn TJ, I just didn't realize TJ's like you existed. Go figure... Here's how I can tell you're a TJ, you quote like crazy. Quoting drives me crazy because it's too detail oriented for me. I'm a visionary leader - I can think of big projects and work with others to bring them to fruition. But, stick me with the details and I become a whiney, miserable punk. (I did quote you for the first time yesterday. Did you notice?)
Bunny, your input still gives me a smidgen of hope. I'm a passionate, intense type of gal. We seem horribly mismatched to me. :? Me trying to keep my emotions at a low simmer feels like I'm half dead. I hope to God that something is getting ready to pop, blow, change, whatever. This is not good.
Take care everybody. I'm meeting with my sponsor today. Don't feel like telling her what's going on. Feels like I'm failing...again. But, she's a wise 66 year old with the energy of a 35 year old. She's pretty cute. We'll see what God does. I'm not expecting too much. I've gotta go be 'happy' and do some prep work for the kid's open house tonight. Yippee....
chutz
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Chutzbagirl,
I will write more later. This is a quick thought. Can you call your T and leave a message about how angry and disappointed you are in him and in your husband. They BOTH let you down. Your T needs to know how lonely and despondent you are.
bunny
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((((((((Chutzbagirl)))))))))):
You wrote that you want him to buy you a card and appologize.....and way back you wrote:
His low desire for intimacy I think has more to do with his low grade depression and almost nonexistent desire for emotional intimacy.
So, in your opinion....he does not have much of a desire for emotional intimacey and he is depressed.
:(
Then, you mention how he's laughing at the tv (and you feel so alone...tryng not to quote you--which by the way...I like to quote because it helps me to keep from making mistakes about what the person said/wrote....which I will make a lot of mistakes, probably, if I rely on this poor, old, beatup memory of mine.. :oops: :oops: Sorry when I do that).
I think you also said something to the effect that his whole family was unemotional and cold. And that it would help you to have some empathy for this man....your husband.
Ok.....so picture a little boy growing up in a family that does not express, value, show, consider, share, understand, etc...emotions. A very intellectual place....when no one speaks about what they feel....only about what they think. There aren't any hugs or kisses. There are no soothing words, when he is hurt. There is no one saying caring things....I love you...you're special....I value this or that about you...to him. No one expressing joy or sadness, anger or fear, admiration, sympathy, or love. What does a little boy learn under such conditions??
Behaviour-wise.....he learns to be intellectual, speak about thoughts, which might make him appear to have no desire for intimacy. Emtoionally....he learns to keep silent, contain, be tough. But if you think about it....do you think it might be possible that he simply feels weird...when strong feelings come out/when people express feelings/when he feels stuff but doesn't know how to express it (because he hasn't learned)??? And weirder still when he sees others expressing emotions? I mean.....how would he know how to do this? How would it feel right? How would it seem normal? At the least.....it seems to me it might feel really confusing and foreign to him, even now, as an adult.
Maybe....there is a possibility......that he does want intimacy.....but doesn't have a clue about how to do it? Maybe....he just doesn't do intimacy because he hasn't leaned how?? I'm guessing.....big time....and trying to imagine what he may be feeling inside.
And fear!!! To admit it? To show such weakness.....when you yourself view him as a rock! He himself....maybe thinks of himself as being a rock...not needing deep emotional connections...because he's survived this far without them. Not that he doesn't want them but doesn't have a clue how to be intimate and thinks it isn't necessary anyway?? He doesn't know the value/depth of connection/true benefits of sharing emotions.
Maybe he has no understanding about them?
Buy you want a card and an appology. I understand why you want these and how much this would mean to you and how it would show you something intimate from him.
But it's like wanting lotion from a soap dispenser. There isn't any lotion there right now...because it wasn't taught and doesn't seem important to him. Or maybe it does seem important but he's terrified to admit it. So he's depressed. He feels very sad and low and hopeless. Maybe worthless. Useless, as far as intimacy goes. Damaged, when he's supposed to be a big, strong rock.....expected to come along and be there for you...when he can't guess how to do that or why it's up to him? He was taught to just get over it. Not to express it, share it, talk about it, or even that it is ok to feel it. His way of feeling better is to watch something that makes him laugh...on tv. It's a good thing too...sometimes. But as you clearly know...it's not much help to him in the intimacy department.
So....your T telling you to forgive him......(which I might suggest....get a pillow and pound the heck out of it...get your anger out...cry...do whatever to release the feelings....and then think about the stuff above here)....and to move toward him.....may be his (T's) way of telling you that your husband simply does not know how to move toward you.
This is a decision only you can make. Whether or not you want to go to him and try to express feelings and expect....nothing.....for awhile, in return. Your example may help. Especially if you express empathy. If you explain how you care and want to share with him....and are willing to do whatever it takes to help him learn to do that....maybe you will strike a nerve? Maybe he will begin to become vunerable and take the risk of opening up a little.
Because right now....my bet is....he is trying his best to stay safe/in his non-vunerable shell of non-emotion/where it doesn't feel weird/ where he can be a rock/ or......
he might be escaping there because he is so afraid of not being capable of learning intimacy, of learning the benefits, of feeling connected to you and more so....of looking like an idiot/worthless/piece of soap....to you.
Hope this helps a little Chutz. It's so hard to give when what we really want is to be given something....love, understanding, soothing words, hugs and kisses. Sending those over this cyber space...just to you...from me. I know it's not much...but I mean well.
GFN
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Chutzba,
I'm a little hesitant to even post this for fear that you think I am passing judgment or making assumptions. I am not. I just wanted to say that I see some similarities between your H and mine and perhaps to be aware or mindful of a couple of things. I'm not sure how much of my story you may have read elsewhere, but in a nutshell, we had very little physical intimacy and virtually no emotional intimacy for a good portion of the marriage. Ultimately, I found out that he was using pornography and masturbation as his means of satisfaction until he allowed himself to totally cross over to the dark side and find a married girlfriend with whom to have an affair.
He has been diagnosed with dysthymia and ADD over the years and has taken Wellbrutrin to supposedly deal with that. You would never imagine him to be a person with depression as he is always the life of the party. Yes, he had a very unemotional childhood with a very N alcoholic, but highly successful father and enabling mother.
We went to therapy together for 6 weeks. I found out about all of the above behaviors, but was still willing to work to save the marriage. Ultimately, he was not. He wanted out, he wanted his girlfriend and he didn't care about the 22 years of marriage or how it would affect his children. My T, who was our T, explained to me that he is an N. I probably would never had seen that or looked for that kind of explanation to what had happened.
I guess that was a little more than a nutshell, but its hard to get to all of it in one paragraph. :oops: We can take a horse to water but we can't make him drink. I pray that your H is willing to drink and look into himself to find the damaged parts that create the hard shell. But you can't make him. You can only control what you do, and how you feel, and how you treat the others in your life.
(((((((chutzba)))))))))))
Blessings,
Brigid
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Chutz,
Mud, I need a shoulder.
I don't know if there's a symbol for a shoulder but you can have both of mine. :cry: :cry:
So sorry he's so damaged and doesn't realize the pearl he was given to take care of.
Still hoping and praying for you.
mudpup
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Chutzbagirl,
This doesn't require a miracle. It requires motivation, hard work, a good therapist, and time to improve situations like this. Miracles aren't how it happens...
I want him to come home with a gift and a card and express some remorse for his behavior. I want him to OWN the fact that he really hurt my feelings. I think I should get a redo of M's day!
If you were in couples therapy, you could state this wish in the session and the therapist would help your husband give it to you -- or would support your disappointment. Without couples therapy I don't see a way to negotiate this. It shames your husband too much and he can't tolerate it.
M's day means more to me than just my kids telling me they love me - although that is beyond precious in and of itself. It is a sign post for how far I've come as a M and how much I've detached from my own M. He has thrown many unkind accusations my way about not making progress and being 'consumed by my M'. I need him to notice, I need some affirmation. I want him to see how brave I've been and how hard I've fought; for myself and for my family. I allowed myself to be 'psychologically dismantled' (my term for intensive, painful therapy) because I knew that unless I got some healing I'd never survive this marriage because of all the buttons he pushes. I still don't know if I'll survive it.
Not everyone can go through painful therapy. It takes a special kind of ego strength to do that. It's realistic (sorry to say) not to expect others to do intensive therapy, and also not to be thanked for doing it. Therapy is a deeply personal thing, probably shouldn't even be discussed between spouses (we don't -- it's off limits). Your T (if he is any good) will help you accept your husband as he is. We all want to be accepted as we are now.
When I go upstairs to bed and I hear him laughing at the TV I feel so mad inside. I think, "How can he be laughing when I'm dying from loneliness?" I want connection with him - it's very surreal to look at him and realize he is not capable. What's the point?
Actually you have no idea how he feels inside. He could be suffering, he could be compartmentalizing to survive emotionally, he could be deeply sad, he could be protecting himself, he could be anything. You don't know. Couples therapy is the way to find out.
I hope it goes well with your sponsor. It sucks that you have to pretend to be happy for open house but maybe you can REALLY be happy. Don't let your husband spoil anything for you. You are allowed to have some happiness even right now.
bunny
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P.S. I am pretty disappointed in your therapist for not helping you and frankly making it worse.
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Hi,
Well, the day has gone better than expected. My sponsor was wonderful. She understood me and encouraged me to get in touch with what God wants me to do. To listen to my heart - not my head. At this point, I believe God is asking me to love my husband unconditionally. (I need to clarify that this type of love requires truth and justice not codependent love = love with no boundaries.) This feels like a hard task - but I will take it one day at a time...literally.
I know his critical alcoholic F did a number on him. His co, emotionally unavailable M was no help. It's just so hard to have empathy when the guy is attacking me. My knee jerk reaction is to go into little girl mode and want him to disappear...forever. I remember having a dream when I was about 4 that trash can monsters were trampling my parents to death and I was happy about it. I still remember waking up and feeling guilty about my reaction in the dream.
Yes, I do think my T minimized the situation. I left him a message and let him know. We'll see what happens in that department. In general, I think he's pretty good. He's helped me immensely these past few years. It's time that I become more adult with him. I may have played a part by minimizing H's behavior myself. I minimize quite a bit - helped me survive for many years.
Longtire - I love that you quote and that you are so thoughtful with your replies. :) My opinion is that it takes several people to make a whole brain. Your input has been very helpful. Thank you so much - you're a bud. Please don't take my lack of quoting for a lack of care - it's just how I process.
GFN, thanks for reminder of my H's woundedness. He really isn't all bad. I needed affirmation on Sunday. I need more connectedness on a regular basis. I need to be free of his criticisms and judgements. I don't know how this marriage is going to turn out. I'm hoping for the best - but I'm just not sure. I don't think he has pornography issues. I check the history every now and then. :wink: I really think it's the depression and defense mechanisms that are not working anymore. I hope he can muster enough courage to trust the love that is there for him and let people in.
So, off to open house tonight. It was good to get out with people and do projects. I'm an art docent in both of our children's classes - so it was time to set up the displays. :)
Take care cyber friends. Thanks a bunch - I'll check in later. Your wisdom and support are priceless.
chutz
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Rhetorical question - when your husband first got angry because your daughter was crying, what was your response? Did you stand up for yourself? Try to placate him? Apologize? Just wondering how you respond to these things. In the old days I would have catered, placated, apologized, taken full responsibility and later blown up at him over some other trivial thing. Now I would probably ignore him or say, "Na, I don't think so." Partially it's the meds. They take the edge off things that used to make me lose it.
bunny
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Hi,
Bunny, in response to your rhetorical question - I used humor and let him know it was M's day and I wanted him to deal with it. My daughter is very strong-willed, when she was crying it really was about her not getting her way. One of the problems I face in the marriage is my H plugs into that juvenile response and blaims me for it rather than calling our daughter on her attitude. It really is in her best interest to help teach her to be more flexible.
He blew up when I went downstairs and asked why the muffins had not been made. I thought my daughter was going to bake them. I had suggested that as a way to try and repair her plans. (She usually jumps at the idea of baking muffins. But, apparently, since baking the muffins was not her idea, she was unwilling to grant my request.) He immediately took that question as a criticism that he did not do enough and I was never satisfied. He raised his voice and threatened to take himself out for M's day breakfast from now on. (He also ranted and raved that M's day should not have to be like planning a wedding, etc...) At that point I nose dived and the day was never recovered. He remembers my tone being much more scarcastic and accusing than it was.
One thing I can rest in now is that, for the most part, my assesments are sane. Working through what was sane and what was insane during my childhood has helped me to grasp sanity or insanity when I see it. Sure, I've got my blindspots - but they are much smaller than they used to be. One big blind spot is not realizing that I can not handle too much negativity. I stay in the conversation too long thinking I can handle it when I can't. I have a weakness with my tongue - can cut some sharp comments back at times. However, even though I still slip, I've gotten much better. (I don't call myself chutzbagirl for nothing. :wink: ) Actually, I call myself chutzbagirl because I know I am brave, strong, loving, and faithful. I am committed to truth at all costs.
Interesting side note - H has informed me that he's been reading this post. In the past that would have horrified me. I would have felt uncontainable guilt at the thought of something I wrote or did causing him pain. I don't feel very guilty - maybe a twinge - because I've been honest. I believe the truth sets us free. Hopefully by him reading my truth, without having to filter out the emotional tone in my voice, he will know how much pain I'm in. He gets to choose his response. I have zero control over his response. For those of you who work the steps, I'm at step two big time. (Actually steps two and three go together.) He left as soon as I got home and has not come back. It's been about 1 1/2 hours. He's thinking...I place him in God's hands and pray for God's will.
Also, just to be clear about what I've said regarding quoting, I have no problem with anybody else quoting. If you prefer quoting, quote away to your heart's delight. I don't like quoting and I've been feeling guilty - like I'm too lazy to quote you back. I just hate quoting. So please forgive me. I'm good at getting emotional content and hopefully you feel my responses have been somewhat helpful at times. Please don't feel like you need to refrain from your preferred style of communication - just know your dealing with a 'big picture' gal. :wink:
I wish you the best. If you're the praying type, pray for me and my H. I think the next couple of days will be very telling.
chutz
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GFN,
I was rereading this thread and realized how much your input meant to me. Thank you. Thank you for helping me to look at him a little differently. We really do push each other's buttons - very painful match. Hopefully, we can help each other heal...
chutz
He's been gone almost 2 1/2 hours now after reading this post. I hope and pray he is o.k.
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Alright, this is what just happened...He came home and we spoke for a few minutes. He said he went to the gym and went for a drive. I asked him what he thought about. He said he was wondering why he should stay with me since it seems like I want to leave him. He said why wait another ten years if he could spend those years with someone else. He said I'd probably wait to leave him until he paid for the kids to go to college. :cry: He maligned my heart.
His words were so painful for me I think I'm in shock. Where are the thoughts of loving me unconditionally? Where are the thoughts of trying to make it better? Where are the thoughts of feeling bad for acting mean? Where are the thoughts of trying to help me heal? His words are so hurtful, cutting.
He treats me as if I don't care about how hard he works for our income. That is completely untrue. I am conscious of every dollar I spend. We both agreed to me staying home when we had our first born. At the time I was making as much as him working as a legislative assistant at the CA State Capitol. I/we felt strongly about me being home with our children. Now that our youngest is in 1st grade I've been working part time in children's ministries at our church. Seems like a good fit - but it's not good enough for him. He seems to think I stay with him for the financial ease. Believe me, I'm paying for it.
Bunny, this marriage does need a miracle. See, I'm willing to do the hard work, but it seems like it would take a miracle for my H to be willing. :(
Oh well, it's not up to me. I'm willing - you all know that. I stated it earlier. You are my witnesses.
chutz :(
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Chutz,
These are the impressions I am get from his response to you.
Either,
1. He has wanted out of the marriage for some time and he is now manuevering you into being the one to actually want it or,
2. He's so emotionally constipated that he can't respond the way he really wants to, and just gets defensive when he feels threatened. And apparently any discussion of his behavior is threatening.
He is clearly reading into your comments things that you did not say and completely overlooking your concern about his behavior and its effect on you. :cry:
Sorry, Chutz.
mudpup
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Chutzbagirl and her husband,
I don't have much time but here's a short SOS for both of you. I'm going to talk as though I'm a marriage counselor, which I'm not! We've had fights as bad as this, I don't want to say how many times. But it can be helped...
Husband: Your wife was just venting, and is not really planning to leave the marriage. She is just hurt. If you understand her at all, you know how important Mother's Day is to her. This can all be solved, and it's not even that much about you.
Chutzbagirl: Your husband is reasonably hurt because you talked about him and divorce to a bunch of strangers. He is probably shamed very, very badly right now. [One side q: did you tell him you had posted about this?] my advice, based on experience, would be to apologize and not post about him here, if he asks you not to. This is a boundary issue if you know what I mean.
Both of you: Can you get an appointment with your therapist together to talk about mother's day?
my 2c
bunny
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Thank you for helping me to look at him a little differently.
You're quite welcome, Chutz. Now.....keep looking and expect no immediate change. After all, no work has been done to change a thing, right?
We really do push each other's buttons - very painful match. Hopefully, we can help each other heal...
So....as Bunny suggests....get your butts to therapy (not exactly her words though eh? :shock: ).
My prayers for you and your marriage, (((((((((Chutz and Hubby)))))))).
GFN
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Hi everybody,
I hope you don't refrain from posting because you know my H is reading. I'm hoping/praying the truth will set him free. Respect is obviously needed, but at this point I don't want to loose this connection and support.
Thanks,
chutz
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The truth will not set him free. This is about needing someone to mediate. I hope your therapist can help you as a couple, and individually, and not bail out like he did last time.
{{{ Chutzbagirl & her husband }}}
bunny
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Hi Bunny,
I've placed a call. We'll see what happens. As I said to a friend in a pm, this is an E ticket ride.
(((((Bunny)))))
chutz
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Does anyone have the inside story to the amazing ability to compartmentalize? I can't shake this stress. I wish I could just put our problems on the back burner for the rest of the day, but my body won't let me.
Being a sensitive feeler has it's real drawbacks during times like this.
chutz
p.s. It seems like you are all backing off now that I let you know my H is reading this thread. I truly hope you won't stop posting.
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chutz,
I'm not sure people are backing off. They might be busy, usually there isn't much traffic here during the day. Compartmentalizing is a learned skill. If you can get focused on some task or activity, and tell yourself, "It will be okay, we will get help," it may help you.
{{{ chutzbagirl}}}
bunny
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Hi Chutz:
I'm not backing off but I was busy today. Hope you are feeling better. My thought is....if compartmentalizing is a learned skill, then it can be unlearned. Keep telling yourself those positive suggestions Bunny wrote and more. It will take a little time, but it will probably work, especially if you do as Bunny says and keep busy.
(Sorry to just repeat what you said Bunny. I agree and can't think of anything else/better to suggest...just to reinforce the ideas. :oops: )
Hope you are feeling better now, Chutz and doing your best to take it easy. The old.....Rome wasn't built in a day.....thingy applies.
My favorite 12-step slogan: Keep it simple (which....the way I blab along sometimes...does not really reflect that I have learned a whole lot...still...I do admire that one and try to aim for it...sometimes).
(((((((Chutz)))))))
GFN
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bunny,
I have a question for you.
You say you suffer/suffered from the same problem as Chutz's hubby.
Why is it that the truth cannot set someone like this free.
Can he not see the truth of how she feels at all?
Does he see it but it scares him so much he can't deal with it any other way?
Or does he see some distorted version of the truth through the prism of whatever his upbringing was?
Obviously I'm asking for some conjecture here, but applying your experience, could you explain a little maybe?
mudpup
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Why is it that the truth cannot set someone like this free.
Because there's her truth and his truth. Telling a spouse what we think is "the truth" only makes things worse. First, because no one has a monopoly on the truth. Second, it's likely to escalate the situation when it should be de-escalated. When we see this level of anger and disappointment, neither is going to be especially empathic toward the other's feelings. A therapist needs to get involved and start mediating. That's my experience.
bunny
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Why is it that the truth cannot set someone like this free.
Because there's her truth and his truth. Telling a spouse what we think is "the truth" only makes things worse. First, because no one has a monopoly on the truth. Second, it's likely to escalate the situation when it should be de-escalated. When we see this level of anger and disappointment, neither is going to be especially empathic toward the other's feelings. A therapist needs to get involved and start mediating. That's my experience.
bunny
I have a FANTASTIC relationship with my husband but I would never admit to him that I visit this site. He was my loving healer from the cesspit I grew up in.
I keep lots of my internet activity 'secret' because I like to read and post on this site.
I never, ever do anything dubious on the net, and never will, but I find this place a sanctuary and special for me.......
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Hi,
Yup, this place was a sanctuary for me as well. But, the internet does have the 'history' available. He knew I was visiting this site. I think he has been feeling uneasy at some level about the lack of connection. I'm just not fixing it anymore.
Excuse me Bunny...But I do have the corner on truth. :wink: At least, that's what my ego would like to believe. I know I don't have the corner, but I've done a lot of work.
This situation is confusing to me as well. My T has not called back. I know he's teaching a class tonight, maybe I'll hear from him tomorrow. Maybe it's time to start getting mad at him. I haven't really ever been that mad at him yet. That's supposed to be a point of growth in therapy, right?
I'm happy to not be as anxious right now. For some reason the anxiety just dissappated. (sp?) Funny how all the emotions work.
Take care,
chutz
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Dear Chutz:
I just want to thank you because you helped me. I have been agonizing over stuff I have no control over and cannot do anything to change. Your words gave me the courage to turn it all over to God and to just let His will be done. I don't know why it has taken me so long but I thank you sincerely for reminding me that it is the best thing....the only thing to do.
I will keep you and your husband in my prayers. I hope your T calls soon and will help you both move to a better place within yourselves and your marriage. I know it's not up to God to do the work to get there but I understand what you mean by letting go and letting Him do what He sees fit....how you will do your part and let Him do His.
((((((((Chutz))))))))
GFN
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chutzbagirl & hubby,
I have not been avoiding, I just got busy at work. I still do not have internet at home yet. <sound of tiny violins playing pity music...> I have managed to hold onto (couldn't get rid of?) my viewpoints in relationship with my wife. I have no problems expressing them in front of the husband of someone I have never actually met. :wink: Seriously though, I am at the point that I would say so if I felt uncomfortable, not just walk away and act it out.
Why is it that the truth cannot set someone like this free.
Because there's her truth and his truth. Telling a spouse what we think is "the truth" only makes things worse. First, because no one has a monopoly on the truth. Second, it's likely to escalate the situation when it should be de-escalated. When we see this level of anger and disappointment, neither is going to be especially empathic toward the other's feelings. A therapist needs to get involved and start mediating. That's my experience.
Bunny, I hear what you are saying. Still, this doesn't seem to take into account situations where one or both persons are in denial or otherwise fabricating their experiences. Yeah, I know, who gets to decide who's doing that or not? Certainly therapists and counselors, with training and experience. I think that most of the rest of us do as well, just without the training. Sometimes we do wait around long enough to gain some experience, though. :( I know that everyone does this dissociation to some extent. I see a big difference between people who cling to dissociation as a life strategy versus people who are more-self aware and do this "incidentally." No less out of touch with reality, just a lot less frequent.
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Hi everybody,
Aren't you glad the board is back up? I realized how much I'd miss our communicaiton if we could never touch bases again. I've become quite fond of you. :wink:
Well, I just had one of my childhood friends confront me on my expectations. Gotta love her...even when she pisses me off. (We have permission to do that for each other.) It's nice to have someone that remembers my childhood better than I do. By the way, she said, in regards to my M, that a cat would have been a better M. :lol:
She knows how difficult my marriage is - mostly because I want CONNECTION!! But, she seems to think that I have some unrealistic expectations. :roll: Whatever!
H did let me know he has planned a surprise date for Saturday night. Very interesting. I will do my best to pray to be willing to receive the good he has to offer. My heart wants to retreat, bolt the concrete door shut and never let him in again. But, I have to admit, that was a pretty bold move on his part given the fact that he read part of the post. (I think he only read the first couple of postings. Now I just wish he'd read the whole darn thing.)
A big lesson for me in this painful week is that I have been carrying his responsiblity for many things - negativity, sense of inadequacy, fear, shame, etc... That is my nature, I was trained for it, and it is the tendency of my temperament. To change the tide means he will be angry and I will feel abandoned. I guess this does not make him a monster; it makes him wounded as I am wounded. (My friend would be proud of me right now. :) )
Ugh...I so wish the process was easier and less painful. :(
I'm off to pick up my little boy from school. (He is so darn cute.)
chutz :?
So,
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Bunny, I hear what you are saying. Still, this doesn't seem to take into account situations where one or both persons are in denial or otherwise fabricating their experiences. Yeah, I know, who gets to decide who's doing that or not? Certainly therapists and counselors, with training and experience. I think that most of the rest of us do as well, just without the training. Sometimes we do wait around long enough to gain some experience, though. :( I know that everyone does this dissociation to some extent. I see a big difference between people who cling to dissociation as a life strategy versus people who are more-self aware and do this "incidentally." No less out of touch with reality, just a lot less frequent.
Hi longtire,
In this particular case (which isn't like yours), there are two sides to the story. I don't think anyone was fabricating or dissociating. They were dealing with issues more about expectations and communicating disappointment. I think a mediator could resolve it. That's my opinion based on my own experience.
bunny
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Bunny, that makes sense. I think my issues got tweaked by your statement meant for a different situation and I had a reaction. I agree that I don't see any fabricating going on in the situation betweem chutzbagirl and husband. This made me aware of how sensitive I am to denial and especially invalidation right now. They are not the same thing and I think I was reacting as if they are. Sorry about that.
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Hi Longtire and Bunny, (& everybody else)
I'm having difficulty, maybe because I didn't follow all of Longtire's thread, why his situation is different. If you could succinctly explain what you guys are talking about it would help me.
Sometimes the pain of this marriage is so overwhelming it 'feels' like things could never get better. (That may be my childhood speaking.) I also know that H does have a very difficult time with relationships and things seem to be getting worse right now. That's frustrating for me because my grief over detaching seems to be getting better. I'd love to be free of emotional c**p for a while.
T never did call back. I see him on Monday and plan on giving him an ear full. I've been a pretty 'low needs' client - hardly any midweek calls, etc..I think he blew this one.
chutz
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Longtire was relating more to his own situation which isn't like yours. In his situation, his wife distorts everything to a pathological degree, denies all responsibility, does not make any effort, and is in a dissociated (amnesiac) state where she forgets all the stuff he said, what she did, etc. I don't think that's your situation.
I know it feels really bad right now, but your husband is planning a surprise for Saturday. Maybe you can try to remember that.
I think your therapist is really being bizarre. I can't imagine why he hasn't called you. What if you were suicidal?! There is something wrong with him IMO.
bunny
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Hi Bunny,
Thanks for that reply. I spent some time reading Longtire's thread, but not enough I guess to really understand how sick she is. That's too bad. I'm sorry Longtire. :(
My T has been working with me for a few years now. I think he knows I would not take my life. He knows I'm a toughie. After I saw him on Monday he said he was going to wait to make a call on couples counseling. After meeting with H, he decided, for some unknown reason, to hold off. We will discuss this issue on Monday.
My sponsor, reminds me to be willing to pray to be willing to receive the good my H has to offer. It can be tough to see; I know he is making the best effort he is capable of at this time.
There is a saying I've heard in Al Anon: "If you were raised by alcoholics, you either become one, marry one or marry someone who is obsessive enough to fulfill you compulsive need for abandonment."
Alhtough there are times when my H and I are connected, I've experienced an unhealthy dose of abandonment over the past 17 years. I know it's not all him. I know it and I'm willing to do my part. It's just really hard.
chutz
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I don't doubt that the truth will not set him free, and I don't doubt that they need mediation to help them solve their problems.
I do however have a hard time with the the notion that there is 'his truth' and 'her truth' but no objective truth.
She says she wants him to be emotionally available because his distance and sarcasm and cutting remarks are making it impossible for her to stay in the marriage. She states that she more than anything wants a good healthy marital relationship.
He then says that it seems like she wants to leave him.
How is his statement any kind of truth? If she wanted to leave him she would be filling up the old Samsonites not sitting at the computer pouring her heart out about how much she wants him to value her so she can stay in the marriage.
And it is not plausible that she is complaining of his inattentiveness now, so she'll have an excuse to leave in 15 years after the kids are out of college.
To deny that there is a core of objective truth in any situation seems to give equal legitimacy to both view points, even if one is completely fanciful and one is sincere and faithful to the facts.
If their is one party bent on manipulation and dishonesty, aren't they given all the power by the denial of objective truth?
Isn't this one of the worst problems we have all had with the Ns in our lives? Their fanatical adherence to denying objective truth. Isn't that one of the main sources of their power?
I'm not saying Chutz's hubby is an N. Nor am I saying his side of things is completely dishonest. I'm just saying there is his perception, her perception and the truth. And usually one person's perception is a lot closer to the truth than the other's is.
mudpup
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mudpup,
His idea about her leaving him resulted from his reading this thread. She said flat-out that she was considering divorce. He read that and used it against her. It's a volatile situation right now, where both parties are going to take anything the other says and run with it. There's a lot of drama going on and I think the therapist could cut through it. Her husband also needs help. They both do. I'm not excusing his crappy mother's day behavior BUT he seems to be attempting to compensate by planning a surprise for her on Saturday.
The truth here (imo) is that both parties trigger and provoke each other, and they need someone to help them change those behaviors that trigger the other. What they accuse each other of is not the main issue, imo.
bunny
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bunny,
I'm not excusing his crappy mother's day behavior BUT he seems to be attempting to compensate by planning a surprise for her on Saturday.
Maybe reading what she said about divorce woke him up a little. He seems to be reconsidering his first reaction. Its easy to coast and become complacent and not take things seriously enough until we're reminded what the stakes are.
I hope they have a great Saturday.
Where does the fear of apologizing or backing down come from?
Fear of looking weak and vulnerable?
Fear of giving the other party control or a weapon to use in the future?
I assume it comes from being shamed as a child. Correct?
Or maybe a-shamed of the childhood family situation?
There's a lot of drama going on and I think the therapist could cut through it.
Except he's playing golf this week. :(
mud
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mud,
I'm sure reading about divorce scared the heck out of him. However this isn't how spouses communicate in a healthy marriage so I hope they both get help on that. I know from experience that these extreme dramas are not good for the marriage. So I hope they get help on de-escalation skills.
Where does the fear of apologizing or backing down come from?
Fear of looking weak and vulnerable?
Fear of giving the other party control or a weapon to use in the future?
I assume it comes from being shamed as a child. Correct?
Or maybe a-shamed of the childhood family situation?
Correct on all counts. On a deeper psychic level, the person wordlessly feels like they will literally fall apart, go into psychosis, not be grounded in reality anymore, and die, if they experience one more degree of shame. This can happen in the space of one second; the person goes into a pocket of primitive thinking (they are very regressed even if they are speaking like an adult). They abuse their spouse, the spouse is reasonably injured, and then a therapist needs to repair the damage. A therapist who understands this would try to get him curious about how powerfully he reacts, and how deep his terror is. From there, he may get curious about being terrified and he may start questioning whether it's necessary. This is years of work, btw. And in the case of his wife, there is the deep yearning for appreciation, recognition, and credit that she may have to "put in escrow" with the therapist until her husband grows up enough to deal with it. It seems he's already making huge progress because he planned a surprise. That is like an apology. It's certainly a reparative act. So I hope it works out!
bunny
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bunny,
Correct on all counts.
Hooray! Mark this day on your calender. Nobody's told me that since my high school geometry teacher. And that was only because I sat behind the smartest kid in school who was very short, while I was very tall. And I had 20/10 vision. :P :o :twisted:
It seems he's already making huge progress because he planned a surprise. That is like an apology. It's certainly a reparative act. So I hope it works out!
I thought this was huge progress too, but didn't want to say so cause I thought I'd sound like a dope, but if you said it too then it can't be dopey. :wink:
I hope Chutz keeps her expectations low and that he will wildly exceed them.
Note to her hubby, if he's still reading this thread. Next time you surprise her don't tell her you're surprisng her. Not being a wise a$$, just letting you know it REALLY knocks a gals socks off (and other things too :wink: ) when a surprise is a COMPLETE surprise.
mudpup
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Hi mud,
Something that hasn't been mentioned yet...to Chutzba's husband, mother's day might trigger feelings about his mother. So he may not have positive, happy feelings about mother's day. And therefore he passive-aggressively neglected to make sure it got taken care of. This is how immature people sometimes deal with powerful feelings, they find it hard to separate their mother and their wife, or their child and their mother, etc. So he "somehow" managed to screw up mother's day. It was really about getting back at his own mother. And maybe getting back at Chutzbagirl's mother as well. This is where a therapist can understand these associations -- if he isn't out on the golf course.
bunny
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Hi,
Bunny and Mudpup - seems like you are having an intriguing conversation. Bunny, just to let you know, I communicated the degree of my pain and uncertainty of my ability to continue dealing with it before he read the post. That's when he said - "Where are you going?" He said the comment about just staying with him until the kids are out of college after he read it.
Also, M's day (Who invented this holiday anyways?) was the climax of several difficult months/years. I have been in a despairing place for a while. I think dealing with the chronic negativity, anxiety about $ (which I don't even think is valid), judgement, etc...has just plain old worn me out. I had a very special event that I was in charge of the weekend before M's day. Although the event went very well, I received a lot of discouragement and negative input beforehand. That was tough. In general, I feel like I'm swimming towards a good destination but against the current. Tiring...I hope my spouse and I will learn to work together instead of against each other.
I am still praying to be willing to be willing to receive what ever good my H has to offer me tonight. Sounds like he is spending some $ - I need to let him know that when he complains about spending $ during or after the gift giving or special event it just doesn't feel good! We really are just fine - it's fear and anxiety. Btw, it has taken me a while to really get that truth and not go on the fear rollercoaster myself.
So, I guess that's all for now. Seems like I wanted to say something else, but it fell out of my head. :roll: I hope you all have a great Saturday. My little girl has a double-header in girl's fast pitch and she's scared. She's facing the scariest pitcher today. Send good thoughts her way! I hope she smacks that ball. :twisted:
chutz
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I hope my spouse and I will learn to work together instead of against each other.
YOU'VE GOT IT. :!:
We really are just fine - it's fear and anxiety. Btw, it has taken me a while to really get that truth and not go on the fear rollercoaster myself.
I hope your husband can hear this. :D
Good luck to your daughter, I wish her the best in her game today.
bunny
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((((((((((Chutz))))))))))
Wishing you a wonderful surprise and your daughter a smashing home run...
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Well...our night was a success. :wink: He surprised me with a very yummy dinner and a play. I love live theatre. Then, we were sitting on a deck enjoying a cocktail, over looking a river when we were totally suprised with a wonderful fireworks display. We had a perfect view. It felt like it was just for us.
We didn't talk about anything difficult until we were driving home. (I did apologize for hurting him during the cocktail and he apologized as well.) We are having some pretty serious discussions about church right now. He wants to leave, I feel called to minister. It's a pretty big disagreement. So, I told him "he may be right" and asked him to seriously explore the topic with our counselor and another man in his life. He said he would. I will trust God to lead us in this matter as well. It's so nice to not have to do God's job anymore.
As I said a while earlier in this thread, the main lesson for me has been to detach from taking responsiblity for his emotional reality. Taking emotional responsibility for others is a huge part of my consequences of being raised by N's. So, him blaming me on M's day pushed an incredibly painful button for me. For him, according to Bunny, admitting he is wrong feels like death; for me, detaching feels like death. Thank you for helping me to walk through a painful week. In some sense, part of me did die. But, that is a part of the unhealthy me - the part of me that falsely believes I am responsible for his emotional and spiritual health. The effects of N are so subtle that I don't even know they are there until they raise their ugly, painful heads.
Thanks again and take care everybody,
chutz
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Chutz,
I'm so glad you had a lovely evening. I hope it just keeps getting better and better.
Blessings,
Brigid
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Great news, Chutz! I'm so glad for you both.
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We are having some pretty serious discussions about church right now. He wants to leave, I feel called to minister. It's a pretty big disagreement. So, I told him "he may be right" and asked him to seriously explore the topic with our counselor and another man in his life. He said he would. I will trust God to lead us in this matter as well. It's so nice to not have to do God's job anymore.
I'm really glad you had a good surprise last night. Good job letting God and your husband determine his outcome. Maybe there's room for both choices here. Right, you aren't responsible for his feelings, his religious decisions, his ambivalence, his problems. Detaching feels like losing control, being helpless, maybe awful things will happen, etc. But you'll find that it's the opposite. Enjoy the break you're giving everyone. :-)
bunny
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Dear Chutz:
That's so nice to hear, that you have such a lovely evening together. :D
I think you said you will be seeing T today? Here's hoping that goes very well too!
GFN
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Thanks for the kind words Brigid, GFN, Stormy, Mud and Bunny. :)
Change and growth are sssslllllooooowwwww. God spoke to me loud and clear, several times since my last post on Saturday, to stay put and 'stand' amidst my difficulties. We had an amazing speaker from Africa at our church on Sunday. God spoke through him straight to my heart. No dodging that message.
Aren't you all amazed at the intensity of the pain during this healing process? My goodness, sometimes I can barely function. That is very humbling for me because performing and over-achieving were some of my primary survival tools. (Minimizing, denial and repression kept me alive as well. Aren't they all basically the same thing?)
It takes guts to speak when we haven't had a voice. It's scary for me to recognice and voice my needs. Besides, the fear makes me clumsy and a bit ineffective. So, like a toddler learning to walk, I am forced to speak up and persevere even when I stumble and blow it. I can do the 'defensive dance' - get mad and defend myself from blame and accusations. But, that's not speaking with my God-given voice; that's just making unneccesary, unintelligible noise.
I'm not looking forward to seeing my T. I'm gonna have to be an adult, use my voice and express myself clearly. I'm disappointed in him. I feel neglected. (Gee, that's a familiar sensation. :roll: ) Personally, whenever anybody has the audacity to push one of my pain buttons, little chutz would like to strike them with lightening and incinerate them on the spot. :twisted: But, since that's not a realistic, productive or legal way to solve my problems, I guess I'll have to "trust" in his general goodwill towards me and do the hard work. Sounds like a fun session...Anybody want to meet me for a bagel and lox while I play hookey? :wink: Actually, that's just what I'm gonna do, reward myself for this hard work after seeing my T by taking myself out to my favorite lunch...a bagel and lox. I'll toast my Grandmother with my diet coke and think of you all. :wink:
I hope you have a splendid Monday. Best wishes to everybody,
chutz