Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: October on May 24, 2005, 07:06:07 AM
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I just wondered if there is any commonality in N ailments, and how they respond to them, in the same way as there is a commonality in the effect on their families.
My Nmother is in her early 70s. She is very overweight, has high blood pressure and high cholesterol. She uses tablets for both, (even though she claims to not be able to swallow tablets :? ) and does not modify her diet at all to minimise the symptoms. She takes no exercise whatever. My dad has had a stomach ulcer and other digestive problems for years but does at least potter in the garden when he can. He takes tablets and she feeds him a high fat diet, with lots of sugar, lots of fried and greasy foods. They both smoke a lot. Dad tries to cut down, but mum has never even tried. Nobody knows how many she smokes, but it is a lot. If she goes in my car she always has to have a cigarette the moment she gets out - and not because my driving is that bad!!!!! :twisted: Dad can go a whole day without a smoke, and it doesn't bother him. I think he could give up if it were not for mum. She needs him to keep her company.
Some years ago Nmum was ill, and not sorting it out, so I went to the chemist and bought her some over the counter stuff - I forget what it was; cough medicine or whatever. She loved the fuss; she went on and on about how it didn't matter and she was fine and not to worry, which all means exactly the opposite. She actually means I know I am dying, but leave me in peace because nobody understands, and you will all be sorry when I am gone. :? She has actually said this kind of thing to me several times, over the years. I usually tell her she is talking rubbish, or words to that effect. Anyway, she made lots of complaints about not being able to take the medicine, and I insisted, and then she took it and rushed to the bathroom and made herself sick on purpose.
Since then, needless to say, I leave her to her histrionics. I buy Gaviscon for my dad if he needs it, but nothing for her. :?
There seems to be some background expectation that illness/good health is to do with doctors, and is for them to 'cure', rather than being the responsibilty of the patient to maintain or maximise. Whenever I try to talk about sensible eating, there is no response whatever. It is just blanked out. Is this to do with their perceived immortality? No idea. Just wondered what others find.
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I would only guess that being an N, they think they are above doctors and naturally do not have to do anything to maintain their health. It would all be about their, "specialness" and how they dont need to make an effort at anything. ALso could be the fear of being revealed that they are human when the doctor says you need to do this and that to get better or stay well. Too pedestrian. Not enough "magical thinking" for the N.
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I just wondered if there is any commonality in N ailments, and how they respond to them, in the same way as there is a commonality in the effect on their familie
Just wanted to add that N's beleive they will be young forever and live forever. My N Mother has said (more times then i can count) "You will all be sorry when I die" I ignore her. Sherefuses to take care of her health (She LOVES the attention she feels she gets if she makes her self ill)I have a N bother who says/does the same thing.An N Grandmother who also said the same thing,though she was always pampering herself with expensive herbs and pills (too keep herself "young" (she is passed now)
I think N's cannot admit that they are dystroying their own health (after all they are always right) My N b/f smokes,(alot). He really does not wish to face that fact that he might be runing his own health. He will compalin endlessly about headaches or coughing and will tell me over and over "It is the dust in his apt" causing it (and i should be cleaning HIS place more often) I do not clean it at all and I do not live with him. Thank God! (And he cant understand how my apt is so clean,It must be due to the fact that "I have so much time on my hands and have nothing to do I work full time,and have as small child"!)
He will focus on stuipd little things (like someone dropping two rice grains while eatting, on his all ready old and unclean carpet) His place looks like an earthquake hit it but he will complain if you place your coat on his chair (because all his chairs are covered with junk and "you are covering the only free chair in the apt.!)
Health issues are too scary for children to focus on.(They might"die") Try and remember: N's are emotionaly retarded and you are dealing with mental illness. I have delt with so many N's in my life. They all have the same patterns.
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Perhaps they fear that if they actually did the things that would make them healthier and maybe even eliminate certain health issues, that they would lose the concern factor that keeps the non N's around them attached. They wouldn't have as much to complain about and for us to feel sorry for them about.
Probably just another way for it to be all about them. I agree that they probably think they know better, too and they can do whatever they want to.
Brigid
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October:
There seems to be some background expectation that illness/good health is to do with doctors, and is for them to 'cure', rather than being the responsibilty of the patient
Absolutely.
When mine talks about her illnesses, I pretend not to be very interested "uh-huh" - but I do listen very carefully to see if any of it is believable or important.
Your mother sounds like she's doing okay as an overweight heavy smoker. I wouldn't worry about her health too much at this stage... :(
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Your mother sounds like she's doing okay as an overweight heavy smoker. I wouldn't worry about her health too much at this stage... :(
Well, for fun, C and I did an online life expectancy game thingy about a year or so ago. I am predicted to live to be 82, she will be 88, I think it was, and my mum came out at 71, which is her age now.
Didn't bother either of us. We just laughed. No, I am not worried about mum - she is very strong and resilient. It is the weird behaviours that have me bemused. It is not just us that she neglected. She is neglecting her own welbeing as well, and my dad's, counter to every scrap of medical advice she can ever have heard in her life (she was a nurse). Truly bizarre. However, it doesn't touch me. I am outside. :? (The mum I thought I had died many years ago.)
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Wildrain,
Are you sure you are not dating my ex nbeau? The concentration on really stupid things like not putting something on the chair sounds just like him. He would complain about stuff other people did when he was so much worse in whatever department he was complaining about.
Like complain about the anger others had when he was Mr rageaholic. COmplain I had to many papers in my car when his house was a total unhealthy disaster of dog hair, soap scum, bugs,mice etc. They are insane ,arent they?
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He would complain about stuff other people did when he was so much worse in whatever department he was complaining about.
Like complain about the anger others had when he was Mr rageaholic. COmplain I had to many papers in my car when his house was a total unhealthy disaster of dog hair, soap scum, bugs,mice etc. They are insane ,arent they?
Projection... the bad stuff is in you, it's never in them... classic N self-defense. Goes right along with the double standards [it's wrong for you to do to them the things they do to you without blinking].
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Projection... the bad stuff is in you, it's never in them... classic N self-defense. Goes right along with the double standards [it's wrong for you to do to them the things they do to you without blinking].
hi october, hope you have a fun trip. 8)
i just think, they dont want to be mentally healthy, why would they want to be physically healthy... :( being healthy isnt dramatic and they dont get attention for it. :( its sad.
i have to say this post above pushed some big, sad buttons for me. the N's i know will do horrible things to me, call me names and spread horrible rumors that are not true, but all i have to do is say my own opinion, or disagree with them, and im evil incarnate.
also this anger thing was exactly why i was so oversensitive to feeling called 'angry' when i first came here. they betrayed me so bad and stabbed me in the back in the lowest way - then they discounted my feelings and told me i was totally unreasonable to feel upset.....
they did things that would make anyone furious, then they discounted all my feelings which made me even more furious, then they pointed at me and said 'see, she has an anger problem'. i think that my daughter still blieves it too, becuase of the way she was brainwashed by them to see any disagreement with them, as 'evidence' of my 'anger problem'.
its such a horrible way to be trapped. thats why i was so oversensitive to thinking i was being called angry when i first came here. :(
who are these people and why cant we put them all on an island together to torture each other. now, theres an idea. :( :( :(
anna
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i just think, they dont want to be mentally healthy, why would they want to be physically healthy... :( being healthy isnt dramatic and they dont get attention for it. :( its sad.
anna
What a revelation!! Thank you, Anna. I think you have explained it all. It is a real gift to be able to see the wood from the midst of the trees. Many thanks. :lol:
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Projection... the bad stuff is in you, it's never in them... classic N self-defense. Goes right along with the double standards [it's wrong for you to do to them the things they do to you without blinking].
Yes! about the double standards. I tried for so many years to get my wife to "see" that the things she complained about me doing were things she did far worse to me. Her defense against that was to justify her "bad" bahavior in that *I* forced her to treat me badly because I was "bad" first in one way or another. When I did the same thing, it just showed how bad I was and would be deserving of being treated the same way. Either way showed that I was a "bad" person and deserved to be treated however she chose to treat me. She could never seem to understand the concepts of basic human worth or inherent respect for others as human beings. Has anyone else experienced this with their N or Borderline?
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ooooh, Longtire, I can relate. These are the kinds of mind/word games my ex would play with me. Didn't matter that he was absolutely nucking futs in his "reasoning". He did it because it made me upset.....here I would be trying to talk to him like he's "normal" and could somehow see reality....and all the while he's just messing with my head with absolutely NO ability to see what he's all about... and me, all trapped in this sticky, twisted mess of words he created (and he's not all that good with words, he's just really good and messing with good intentions!) Uggggh
Now lets do a happy dance that we are not with those people anymore!!!!
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Longtire I had to read your post about 4 times to really understand it, and each time I thought it got better (or maybe my understanding got better?). What you describe is surely projection and a half? I guess if it feels icky, it is icky. Great description and very helpful, thank you. portia
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:D
W
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Happy Dance! Who else wants to join in? (That's supposed to be a stick figure dancing, in case you can't tell it!)
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:D :D :D so cool Longtire :D :D :D
<big smile> bye for now, portia
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. Didn't matter that he was absolutely nucking futs in his "reasoning". He did it because it made me upset.....here I would be trying to talk to him like he's "normal" and could somehow see reality....and all the while he's just messing with my head with absolutely NO ability to see what he's all about... and me, all trapped in this sticky, twisted mess of words he created (and he's not all that good with words, he's just really good and messing with good intentions!) Uggggh
Now lets do a happy dance that we are not with those people anymore!!!!
I just has to add that what you have said is EXACTLY what i have gone through. Words that are twisted,make no sense and the talking that never stops. Here i am trying to sort this out calmly with a crazy person! Meanwhile he is turning things around so i look like I am the one who is nuts!! (I am being too "emotional") and being a salesman makes him good with talking endlessly so what he couldnt make up with words he made with never shutting up....
Makes me realize all the more how crazy these people are. Just the fact that they all have the same traits to me is scary. I think N's are alot sicker then we realize and that they have a mental illness worse then we can understand
I have a question---
Has anyone thoght that the N they know is manic or acts manic at times??
I have noticed this (though he is NOT manic but has all the symptoms.)
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YEs, My brother who has N traits has also been diagnosed with Bipolar Disorder. When he gets warmed up he is no fun to be around. He becomes loud,aggressiveand makes soapbox speeches about what is wrong with everyone else - but never can see that he is a tad nutso.
I have see him becoming more like my N father every minute of every day.
N's define a successful conversation as one in which they have twisted and mangled the other person statements into a confused mess.
N's are not content to construct and articulate a sound argument, they appear to have a deep need to crush the other person with the most vicious personal attacks.When you say 'ouch' they then attack again by accusing you being too sensitive or, my personal favorite , "you are getting all defensive", as if being defensive while under attack was some character defect.
They people are bad as well as mad. Scott Peck knows his S**T.
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This is a trait I have noticed in my brother. I wonder if anyone else has with their 'special person'.
He can not, or will not, repeat his memory of a conversation accurately.
Even ones not in dispute, or concerning him. I am never sure if there is just some disconnect between his ears and his memory banks or if it is willfull, but every conversation is twisted to mean something other than what it actually meant. Never to his detriment of course, only others.
He has a pretty good memory otherwise, but where it really counts, what people say and mean, he is completely and utterly unreliable.
It is a very strange sensation to watch it occur. Kind of a 'through the looking glass' experience. To hear something plain as day and then hear it repeated in a sometimes subtly, sometimes egregiously twisted way is pretty creepy.
mudpup
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mud,
I have used the word "creepy" many times to describe my wife's behavior and my relationship with my wife. Intentional or not, conscious or not, there is something malevolent at work there. With most people, you can predict a range or spectrum of reactions related to an event.
Let's say you witness a car accident with another person. You might expect that person to run forward to offer assitance. You might expect that person to leave because they are wanted by the police and don't want to be there when they show up. You might expect that person to break down in tears because this accedent reminds them of a fatal accident in their own lives. You might expect that person to go into shock if they see injured or killed people. Any or all of these reactions might occur depending on that person's previous life experience. However, until we begin to understand the total disconnect of NPD or BoPD, we DON'T expect that person to turn on us and berate us for ruining their day by causing this accident and forcing them to witness it!?!?!?!?
Creepy and disconnected, self-serving and uncaring. Just thinking about it makes my skin crawl.
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Mud and Longtire,
I, too, have used the word "creepy" to describe my xh's behavior and reaction to what he has done. In his case, he did not resort to anger as he is afraid of it, but would lie, dodge, avoid, make light of, or resort to humor to change the subject. The creepy part came in his ability to view all of his deviant, sick, twisted behaviors as no big deal and commonly done by most men. Also the emptiness in his eyes and the lack of emotion at the pain he caused me, his children, his family was also very disturbing. I have described him to my T as being somewhat Scott Peterson like in his ability to disconnect from the reality of his behavior.
Many times when I would remind him of things he had said or promised, he would respond with "I may have said those things, but I don't remember." Even when I have them in writing, he won't acknowledge that he actually wrote it.
Yes, it is creepy and very difficult to understand for someone like myself who views everything through very emotional eyes.
Brigid
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When you say 'ouch' they then attack again by accusing you being too sensitive or, my personal favorite , "you are getting all defensive", as if being defensive while under attack was some character defect.
They are bad as well as mad. Scott Peck knows his S**T.
Oh, I got that 'too sensitive' 'defensive' stuff from the time I was a wee bit kiddie. It's a classic fallback position for verbal and emotional abusers. That, plus the one where they tell you they're only joking, and castigate you for your lack of a sense of humor.
Jophil, you sound like someone who has read "People of the Lie". If you've posted about it and I missed it, I apologize. But Scott Peck certainly does know his ---t. One excellent book.
So... bipolar can be Ns, and Ns can be bipolar. Definitely. But it isn't compulsory to have both if you have one...
I know very very insightful and caring people who have bipolar, and it is such a torment, such an ordeal for them. I can't imagine how much they suffer, and I admire their bravery so much - it takes such tenacity to simply hang on, day after day, trying different meds, holding on with everything they've got, fighting that roller coaster.
And I have known other folks who have the same diagnosis, but no insight at all... and it's like night and day. Everything has to be about them, all the time, more so when they are having mood episodes, but it really is continuous. So they make life an ordeal for everyone around them... and as much as they suffer, one suspects that those who love them, in this case, suffer even more.
hang in there jophil.
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~~ NPA PERSONALITY THEORY ~~
A Theory of Personality Traits Leads to
a Genetic Model for Borderline Types
and Schizophrenia
Anthony M. Benis, Sc.D., M.D.
Mount Sinai School of Medicine,
One Gustave L. Levy Place, New York 10029
[Speculations in Science & Technology (1990) Vol. 13, No. 3, pp. 167-175]
Summary in Plain English
We present here an original theory of human personality traits based on traditional genetics. We identify three separate traits, each being dependent on the expression of a single gene. We call the traits "behavioral complexes" because each trait expresses itself in a spectrum of related behavioral characteristics. The three traits are: aggression (A), narcissism (N) and perfectionism (P). The traits of aggression and narcissism are fundamental to the human personality structure, and each is associated with a rage reaction: the well-known aggressive-vindictive rage ("flight or fight" reaction), and the not so well-known narcissistic rage ("tantrum of vanity"). The trait of perfectionism is well-known in the context of "obsessive-compulsive" behavior. The latter trait is present in some personality types as a modifier trait, but it is not essential to human social behavior.
The resulting model based on only the traits N, P and A appears at first sight overly simple. However, it is complex enough to generate all of the classic personality disorders of the psychiatric literature.
The traits N and A are special, in that a functioning individual must have at least one of the two traits underlying his/her personality structure. Individuals who have only one of the traits (N or A) are particularly vulnerable in the context of schizophrenia. That is, if the single trait that the individual possesses is not allowed to flourish, for example because of environmental constraints, then the individual will be incapacitated in social relations. In a <<schizophrenic type>> the single trait is profoundly suppressed so that the individual has symptoms of psychosis (delusions and hallucinations). In a <<borderline type>> the trait is partially suppressed so that the individual is schizoid or withdrawn (but not psychotic), yet is still identified as having difficulties in interpersonal relations.
Our approach leads to a model of schizophrenia based on two separate genetic loci (corresponding to the traits N and A), with three variants of each gene (alleles) at each locus. We have found some evidence that the gene for the trait of aggression is linked to a well-known gene (HLA) on chromosome 6.
We note that our model predicts that schizophrenia is a heterogeneous entity, being composed of several distinct types. It predicts that the genetic structure underlying schizophrenia is not distinct "abnormal genes", "genetic defects", or "inborn errors of metabolism". Rather, the basis of schizophrenia is very frequently-occurring genes that are present in many "normal" personality types, but happen to occur in an unfavorable combination in the schizophrenic or borderline individual. Our approach is consistent with a so-called "diathesis-stress" model in which clinically evident schizophrenia is triggered by environmental stresses imposed on a genetically vulnerable individual.
Outline
Summary
Introduction
Model Based on Three Genetic Traits
Genetics and environment
Traits of aggression, narcissism and perfectionism
Aggression (A)
Narcissism (N)
Perfectionism (P)
Origin of the character traits
Aggression: Complete and Incomplete Expression (Dominant, Submissive and Resigned Types)
1) Dominance: Dominant Character Types
N type
A type
NA type
NP type
PA type
NPA type
2) Submission: Submissive Types, including Borderline and Schizophrenic Types
Non-compliant types
A- type
PA- type
NA- type
NPA- type
Compliant types
A= type
PA= type
NA= type
NPA= type
3) Resignation: Resigned Types, including Schizophrenic Types
-A type
P-A type
N-A type
NP-A type
Narcissism: Incomplete Expression (Non-aggressive Withdrawn Types)
N- trait
N= trait
-N trait
Discussion: Genetics of character traits
Acknowledgements
References
Table 1
Table 2
~~~~~~~~~
A Theory of Personality Traits Leads to
a Genetic Model for Borderline Types
and Schizophrenia
Anthony M. Benis, Sc.D., M.D.
Mount Sinai School of Medicine,
One Gustave L. Levy Place, New York 10029
[Speculations in Science & Technology (1990) Vol. 13, No. 3, pp. 167-175]
Summary
A genetic model of basic personality traits is presented, proposing three "behavioural complexes", or traits, which are the expression of major pleiotropic genes. The traits are: aggression, narcissism and perfectionism. The traits of aggression and narcissism represent the dual nature of human ambition, and each is associated with a rage reaction. The trait of perfectionism is associated with obsessive-compulsive behaviour. The resulting model is parsimonious in that it generates all of the classic personality disorders and borderline types of the psychiatric literature. The genetic predisposition to schizophrenia lies in lack of expression of the traits of aggression and narcissism, leading to a model of two loci, with three alleles at each locus. The gene for the trait of aggression may be linked to the HLA loci. The model proposes that schizophrenia is a heterogeneous entity, being composed of several distinct types. It is suggested that diathesis-stress models of schizophrenia based on the lack of expression of natural character traits are worthy of further exploration.
Introduction
Although the domains of psychology and psychiatry have flourished during the twentieth century, no objectively testable model of the human personality has been advanced. Indeed, since the time of Freud, the approaches to personality have been qualitative, or at best empirical, in nature [1-9]. The lack of prior success in the adequate identification of basic character traits, and their origins, indicates that new approaches to this question are necessary.
Model Based on Three Genetic Character Traits
Genetics and environment
Although it is universally accepted that both genetic and environmental factors comprise personality, no model based on the combined action of these factors has been put forward. To begin, we make the assumption that although both factors are operative, it is -- based on studies with identical twins [10] -- clearly the genetic, or structural, factors that first need to be identified.
Traits of aggression, narcissism and perfectionism
Horney [11] advanced the concept that at maturity there exist at least three expansive character types, namely the "arrogant-vindictive", the "narcissistic" and the "perfectionistic". Extending these ideas, we posit that the human character rests primarily on the existence of three major traits: aggression (A), narcissism (N) and perfectionism (P). Each of these traits is assumed to exist as a "behavioural complex", being the expression of a single major pleiotropic gene (a gene determining several related characteristics). Our interpretation of the three traits is as follows:
Aggression (A): The behavioural trait of aggression is observed to be the most labile of the three. The stereotypic acts associated with this trait involve body posturing, gestures, and eye contact of intimidation and deference, with individuals having this trait continually competing with each other on a scale of dominance and submission. The trait of aggression corresponds to a striving for power over one's environment, hence it is one main component of competitiveness or ambition. In a pejorative connotation the trait may reveal itself in the context of sadism or sadomasochism. The facial expression is non-sanguine, i.e., tending toward sallowness or pallor in individuals of light skin colour. The hallmark of the trait of aggression is a mass discharge of the sympathetic nervous system: the "flight or fight" response or the aggressive-vindictive rage. During the expression of this rage, the facial complexion of pallor is accentuated.
Narcissism (N): The trait of narcissism is noted to be less labile than that of aggression (where individuals may be constantly altering their character states on a scale of dominance and submission). The stereotypic acts associated with the trait include self-flaunting body posturing, expansive arm gestures, bowing, instinctive self-adornment, and a natural attraction to the limelight of personal recognition. Individuals having only this trait (of the three) are competitive but non-aggressive in their strivings for recognition. The trait corresponds to a striving for glory in one's environment, hence it is the second main component of human ambition. In a pejorative connotation, the unbridled trait of narcissism may reveal itself in the context of conceit, exhibitionism, vanity or messianism. An associated facial expression includes the radiant gingival smile (broadly exposing gums and teeth). The facial complexion tends toward blood-red or ruddy. Hallmarks of the trait include blushing, flushing, and a second type of mass discharge of the autonomic (parasympathetic) nervous system: the narcissistic rage of defence and withdrawal. During expression of this rage the normally sanguine complexion becomes even more florid.
Perfectionism (P): The trait of perfectionism is not a basic drive of ambition and is not associated with a rage reaction. Rather it is a mediator of the unbridled drives of aggression and/or narcissism. The stereotypic acts associated with the trait of perfectionism are obsessiveness, compulsiveness, repetition, and the maintenance of neatness, order and symmetry. A clue to the nature of the trait lies in the compulsive, repetitive mannerisms of autistic children and some adult schizophrenic individuals [12-14]. The behavioural pattern is often ritualistic and the speech characterised by echolalia. It will be posited later that certain autistic and schizophrenic individuals are those in whom the two components of ambition, i.e. aggression and narcissism, have been suppressed by genetic or environmental factors, either congenitally, in childhood, or after maturity, thus revealing in the individual a primitive state of perfectionism.
Origin of the character traits
The most vigorous proponent for the traits A, N and P in interpersonal behaviour was Horney [11,15-20], who considered that the traits have environmental origins, being the result of an individual's desperate search for dominance in the context of a stifling upbringing. The present model -- in ascribing the traits to genetic origins -- emphasises even more the physiognomic attributes that tend to exist concurrently with the behavioural ones. Thus, when divorced from the trait of narcissism, the trait of aggression is found to be associated with a non-sanguine complexion, with an incapacity to express the warm smile of recognition, and with the non-florid aggressive-vindictive rage. In contrast, the trait of narcissism is associated with a sanguine complexion, the radiant gingival smile, and the florid narcissistic rage.
Aggression: Complete and Incomplete Expression (Dominant, Submissive and Resigned Types)
We now introduce a category of basic states of personality, or character vectors, which take into account the quality and degree of expression of the trait of aggression, A. Again, extending the views of Horney [11], three character vectors are defined, namely dominance, submission and resignation. We use the term "vector" because dominant character types tend to project themselves above other individuals, submissive types tend to place themselves beneath others, and resigned types tend to retreat away from others.
1) Dominance: Dominant Character Types
In the character vector of dominance, the traits A and N, if present at all, are fully expressed. Therefore, allowing for the various combinations of the traits N, P, and A, we obtain the following dominant character types:
Narcissistic (N)
Aggressive (A)
Narcissistic-aggressive (NA)
Narcissistic-perfectionistic (NP)
Perfectionistic-aggressive (PA)
Narcissistic-perfectionistic-aggressive (NPA).
These phenotypes are summarised below. They are also listed in Table 1, together with the corresponding personality states that have been described in the literature. Note that an ambitionless, pure perfectionist (P) phenotype does not exist as a dominant character type.
Narcissistic (N) type:
The narcissistic (N) type is found in the writings of Horney [11,15] and others (Table 1). In our view, this is the equivalent of the "sanguine" character type described by the ancients. The important attributes of this type are: expansiveness but unaggressiveness, non-perfectionism, a tendency to flamboyant self-adornment, a natural attraction to the limelight, the gingival smile of recognition, and the florid narcissistic rage. In extreme forms this type appears as a self-anointed visionary, a proselytising evangelist or a messianic personality.
Aggressive (A) type:
The aggressive (A) type corresponds to Horney's arrogant-vindictive type [11] and to her concept of "moving against people [16,17]. In our interpretation, this is the classic "choleric" character type of antiquity. The main attributes of this type are: unbridled arrogance, instinctual vindictiveness, non-perfectionism, no tendency to self-adornment, a wry or sardonic grin in place of a gingival smile, and the pallid-complexioned aggressive-vindictive rage. In extreme forms this type appears as a sadistic personality, as an extroverted paranoid personality, or as the so-called antisocial or sociopathic personality.
Narcissistic-aggressive (NA) type:
The narcissistic-aggressive (NA) type may be regarded as a composite of the previously described narcissistic and aggressive types. Horney described the essence of this character type, in the female, in an article, "The overvaluation of love: a study of a common present day type" [18]. The main attributes of this type are: a sanguine complexion, synergistic merging of unbridled narcissism and aggression, hyperactivity, non-perfectionism, a tendency toward extreme self-adornment, exhibitionism in the limelight, a "flashy" extroverted smile, a tendency toward hypersexuality, and the capacity to exhibit the narcissistic, aggressive-vindictive or combined narcissistic-aggressive rages. In extreme forms this character type appears as the hypomanic, histrionic or hysterical personality.
Narcissistic-perfectionist (NP) type:
The attributes of the narcissistic-perfectionist (NP) type were described by Horney [11] in her exposition of the "perfectionist type". In our view, this encompasses the classic "phlegmatic" type known to the ancients. The main qualities of this type are: a tendency toward a sanguine complexion, industriousness, orderliness, an intense sense of duty, unaggressiveness, stubbornness, negativism, a tendency to ruminate, perfectionistic rather than unbridled self-adornment, an uncommonly seen gingival smile of recognition, and the capacity to exhibit the florid narcissistic rage. In extreme forms this character appears as the obsessive-compulsive personality.
Perfectionist-aggressive (PA) type:
The perfectionistic-aggressive (PA) type is alluded to by Horney [16] in her mention of aggressive types who function in the capacity of a "power behind the throne", that is, personages who utilise intellectual qualities and planning rather than overt aggression to achieve their aims. In our view, this is the classic non-sanguine, austere "melancholic" personality of the ancients. The principal qualities of this type are: a non-sanguine complexion, passive aggressiveness, dour perfectionism, vigilance, manipulativeness, a proud bearing, haughty reservedness, a calculated vindictiveness, a lack of an innate tendency to self-adornment, a sardonic grin, and the pallid-complexioned aggressive-vindictive rage. In extreme forms this is the passive-aggressive, rebellious-distrustful, or ruminating paranoid personality.
Narcissistic-perfectionist-aggressive (NPA) type:
The narcissistic-perfectionistic-aggressive (NPA) type was not explicitly described by Horney, although she did note [11,15] that the three traits can coexist in the same individual. The main attributes of this type are: a sanguine complexion, a loud voice, dynamism with a tendency to be overbearing, bombastic garrulity, intense eye contact, a strong sense of duty, a bent toward conventional values, unpretentious self-adornment, an outgoing smile of moderate intensity, and the capacity to exhibit the narcissistic, aggressive, or explosive narcissistic-aggressive rages. In the extreme cases this individual is the managerial-autocratic or explosive personality.
2) Submission: Submissive Types, including Borderline and Schizophrenic Types
In the character vector of submission the trait of aggression is not fully expressed. We define two gradations of submission: <<non-compliance>>, in which the individual is basically submissive but is easily activated to an energetic state of aggression, and <<compliance>>, in which the individual tends to remain in a profound state of submission.
The state of submission is most often the result of a congenital, inherited, incomplete expression of the gene for the trait A. It may also be induced during the juvenile period on the basis of environmental constraints to character development. That is, phenocopies (based on environmental factors) of a genetically disposed submissive state may exist. Also, like dominant types having full expression of the trait A, submissive types may exhibit the aggressive-vindictive rage. However, the threshold for the triggering of such a rage may be higher.
Non-compliant submissive types -- We denote the state of non-compliance by A- obtaining the following phenotypes:
Aggressive borderline (A-)
Perfectionistic-aggressive borderline (PA-)
Narcissistic non-compliant (NA-)
Narcissistic-perfectionistic non-compliant (NPA-)
Compliant submissive types -- We denote the state of compliance by A=, obtaining the following phenotypes:
Aggressive schizophrenic (A=)
Perfectionistic-aggressive schizophrenic (PA=)
Narcissistic compliant (NA=)
Narcissistic-perfectionistic compliant (NPA=)
The NPA- non-compliant type corresponds to active, motivated, non-confrontational individuals whose baseline personality tends toward submissiveness, as described by Horney in her discussion of inverted sadistic behaviour [17]. In the therapeutic setting, these individuals are found over the spectrum of "type A", dependent, and phobic-anxious personalities (Table 1). The NA- type is a non-perfectionistic, active individual exhibiting pronounced narcissistic behaviour. In the therapeutic setting this is a cyclothymic or dependent histrionic personality (Table 1).
The compliant types NA= and NPA= correspond to more profoundly submissive individuals, having more pronounced tendencies toward masochistic behaviour (Table 1). They correspond to Horney's compliant "self-effacing" personality [11] and to her concept of "moving toward people"[19].
Since the above-mentioned non-compliant types possess the trait N, they tend to have sanguine complexions. Among the remaining types, we note categories of non-sanguine, potentially aggressive borderline types (A- and PA-) and schizophrenics (A= and PA= types).
By definition, the borderline types possess only one of the traits of ambition (N or A) and it is only partially expressed; the schizophrenic types have only one of the traits, and it is profoundly suppressed.
3) Resignation: Resigned Types, including Schizophrenic Types
In the character vector of avoidance, or resignation, the trait of aggression is stunted after maturity because of environmental constraints. Unlike submissive types who readily involve themselves in the relative competition of dominance and submission (and sometimes sadomasochism), resigned types remain relatively detached from such activities and only with difficulty can be stressed to an energetic state of aggression. However, like submissive types, resigned types can be induced into the aggressive-vindictive rage.
Denoting the state of resignation by -A, we obtain the following resigned types:
Aggressive schizophrenic (-A)
Perfectionistic-aggressive schizophrenic (P-A)
Narcissistic resigned (N-A)
Narcissistic-perfectionistic resigned (NP-A)
The resigned types having the narcissistic trait correspond to detached individuals, as described by Horney [11]. She considered that "moving away from people"[20] was a maladaptive response that could develop as a growing individual struggled toward maturity. The NP-A type tends to have strong perfectionistic tendencies, while the N-A type is more labile (Table 1).
Again, the above resigned types tend to have sanguine complexions. Among the remaining types, we note once more a category of non-sanguine, potentially aggressive schizophrenics. Here, however, the attainment of state -A or P-A represents a dramatic "schizophrenic break" after maturity from a premorbid state of dominance (A or PA).
Narcissism: Incomplete Expression (Non-aggressive Withdrawn Types)
We focus on the dominant types N and NP, who lack the trait A. In analogy with the previous discussion of the partial expression of the trait A, we define the following states of incomplete expression of the trait N, as shown in Table 1: N- N=, and -N. Again, these states may be rooted either in heredity or in environmental constraints.
In summary: Our analysis, presented in detail elsewhere [21] shows that the model predicts two major categories of schizophrenia, namely 1) that in which the trait A is genetically absent and the trait N is suppressed, and 2) that in which the trait N is genetically absent and the trait A is suppressed.
Thus, our model leads to an analysis of a character structure that exists when naturally-existing character traits are only marginally expressed. This generates a diathesis-stress model for schizophrenia, i.e. incorporating aspects of both genetics and environment.
Discussion: Genetics of character traits
On the basis of archetypal examples, the model assumes that in their full expression the traits A and N are transmitted according to autosomal recessive inheritance, with the trait P being transmitted in the autosomal dominant mode. For the traits A and N, we assume the existence of three alleles, corresponding to full expression, partial suppression, and total suppression of the traits. Thus, for trait A these alleles are denoted by a, a- and a~, respectively, and the corresponding alleles for the trait N are n, n- and n~. For the trait P, we postulate two alleles, p and p~, corresponding to full expression or total absence of the trait P, on the assumption that the trait is always transmitted with complete penetrance.
We propose that the alleles a~ and n~ control the production of inhibitors of the traits A and N at the level of the central nervous system, and the alleles a- and n- produce partial inhibition. Thus, we are led to posit that the alleles a~ and n~ are dominant, alleles a and n are recessive, with alleles a- and n- occupying intermediate positions (Table 2).
A result of autosomal recessive inheritance for the traits A and N is that only matings of individuals of the A or PA category with those of the N or NP category could produce "ambitionless" progeny, totally lacking both the N and A traits. Such an event would be lethal to the offspring, or if the offspring did survive intra-uterine life, they would be placed in the "failure to thrive" category.
The present model does not mean that all individuals can be readily stereotyped by simple caricatures, as depicted in Table 1. First of all, besides the three posited genes, many other "modifier" genes very likely influence personality. In particular, human temperament in the Pavlovian sense -- a measure of an individual's level of activity, or excitability -- probably has a genetic basis [1,6,8]. Thus, for each character type we allow for the possibility of a spectrum of temperaments having a genetic basis. Secondly, environmental influences are posited to play an important role, the model being not inconsistent with the concept that some maladapted character types at maturity are rooted in stressful environmental influences during childhood. Finally, the many adaptive modes of coping with the stresses of life means that in the final analysis the real life situation -- that is, environment -- is the key to the individual's actual behaviour.
As an example of a type of approach to the identification of the genes for the traits N, P and A, we mention the supposition that the a locus lies on the short arm of chromosome 6, closely linked to the HLA (histocompatibility) group of genes. This follows from several observations. First, several conditions associated with the HLA loci (e.g. rheumatoid arthritis, ulcerative colitis, Graves' disease) are associated with an incapacity to express fully the trait of aggression [21-23]. Second, there is evidence for the existence in the HLA region of a single gene predisposing to a wide variety of endogenous disorders [21-24]. Finally, there have been reports that some schizophrenic and affective disorders may be associated with the HLA loci [25-27]. Thus, it is possible that a well-known genetic marker for the trait A already exists.
Acknowledgements
The author thanks J. Mendlewicz, M.D. for his encouragement and J.H. Rand, M.D. for his critical reading of the manuscript.
References
1. Buss A.H. and Plomin R. (1984). "Temperament: Early Developing Personality Traits", Erlbaum, Hillside, New Jersey.
2. Cloninger R.C. (1987). A systematic method for clinical description and classification of personality variants, Arch. Gen. Psychiatry 44, 573-588.
3. Eysenck H.J. (1980). "A Model for Personality", Springer-Verlag, New York.
4. Freud S. (1896, 1962). "Heredity and the aetiology of the neuroses", in "Early Psycho-Analytic Publications", Hogarth, London.
5. Leary T. (1957). "Interpersonal Diagnosis of Personality", Ronald, New York.
6. Millon T. (1981). "Disorders of Personality: DSM-III, Axis II", Wiley, New York.
7. Stone M.H. (1980). "The Borderline Syndromes", McGraw-Hill, New York.
8. Strelau J. (1983). "Temperament, Personality, Activity", Academic Press, New York.
9. Widiger T.A., Trull T.J., Hurt S.W., Clarkin J. and Frances A. (1987). A multidimensional scaling of DSM-III personality disorders, Arch. Gen Psychiatry 44, 557-63.
10. Bouchard T.J. (1984). "Twins reared together and apart: What they tell us about human diversity", In: Fox S.W. (ed.), "Individuality and Determinism", Plenum, New York.
11. Horney K. (1950). "Neurosis and Human Growth", Norton, New York.
12. Leonhard K. (1979). "The Classification of the Endogenous Psychoses", Irvington Press, New York.
13. Rimland B. (1964). "Autism", Appleton-Century-Crofts, New York.
14. Rutter M. (1978). "Diagnosis and definition", In: Rutter M. and Schopler E. (eds.), "Autism", Plenum, New York.
15. Horney K. (1939). "The concept of narcissism", In: "New Ways in Psychoanalysis", Norton, New York.
16. Horney K. (1943). "Moving against people", In: "Our Inner Conflicts", Norton, New York.
17. Horney K. (1943). "Sadistic trends", In: "Our Inner Conflicts", Norton, New York.
18. Horney K. (1937, 1967). "The overvaluation of love: A study of a common present day type", In: "Feminine Psychology", Norton, New York.
19. Horney K. (1945). "Moving toward people", In: "Our Inner Conflicts", Norton, New York.
20. Horney K. (1945). "Moving away from people", In: "Our Inner Conflicts", Norton, New York.
21. Benis A.M. (1985, 2004). "Toward Self and Sanity: On the Genetic Origins of the Human Character", Psychological Dimensions Publishers, New York. [eBook now available: order on-line]
22. Moos R.H. (1977). Personality factors associated with rheumatoid arthritis, J. Chronic Dis. 17, 41-55.
23. Weiner H. (1977). "Psychobiology and Human Disease". Elsevier, New York.
24. Christy M., Mandrup-Poulsen, T. and Nerup J. (1984). Genetic markers in insulin-dependent (type I) diabetes mellitus, Ann. Clin. Res. 16, 53-63.
25. Gottesman L.I. and Shields J. (1982). "Schizophrenia: The Epigenetic Puzzle", Cambridge University Press, Cambridge.
26. Mendlewicz J. and Shopsin B. (1979). "Genetic Aspects of Affective Illness", SP Medical and Scientific Books, New York.
27. Weitcamp L.R., Stancer H.C., Persad E., Flood C. and Guttormsen S. (1981). Depressive disorders and HLA: A gene on chromosome 6 that can affect behavior, N. Engl. J. Med. 305, 1301-06.
28. Kraepelin E. (1919, 1971). "Dementia Praecox and Schizophrenia", Krieger, Huntington, New York
29. Pare' A. (1634). "Of Humours", In: (1968) Johnson T. (ed), <<The Collected Works of Ambroise Paré>>, Milford House, Pound Ridge, New York.
TABLE 1
Table 1. Principal character types of model: Comparison with literature.
Character types of model Personality states from literature
Dominant
N Narcissistic narcissistic [1,3,5,8]
sanguine [6]
A Aggressive aggressive vindictive [1]
aggressive-sadistic [3]
paranoid-aggressive [5]
antisocial [5,8]
choleric [6]
NA Narcissistic- competitive-hypersexual [1]
aggressive histrionic [5]
hysterical-hypomanic [8]
NP Narcissistic- perfectionistic [1]
perfectionistic responsible-hypernormal [3]
compulsive [5]
phlegmatic [6]
obsessive [8]
PA Perfectionistic- power behind the throne [1]
aggressive rebellious-distrustful [3]
passive-aggressive paranoid [5,8]
NPA Narcissistic- managerial autocratic [3]
perfectionistic- explosive [8]
aggressive
Submissive
Non-compliant: juvenile onset
A- Aggressive schizoid-schizotypal [5]
borderline schizoid [8]
PA- Perfectionistic- schizoid-schizotypal [5]
aggressive schizoid [8]
borderline
NA- Narcissistic dependent histrionic [5]
non-compliant cyclothymic [8]
NPA- Narcissistic- inverted sadistic [1]
perfectionistic dependent [5]
non-compliant phobic-anxious [8]
Compliant: juvenile or maturity onset
A= Aggressive paranoid schizophrenic [2]
schizophrenic
PA= Perfectionistic- catatonic or paranoid
aggressive schizophrenic [2],
schizophrenic paraphrenia systematica [2],
affect-laden paraphrenia [4]
NA= Narcissistic self-effacing masochistic [1]
compliant dependent histrionic [5],
depressive, masochistic,
hypomanic [8]
NPA= Narcissistic- self-effacing masochistic [1]
perfectionistic docile dependent [3]
compliant schizoid dependent [5]
depressive masochistic [8]
Resigned
Maturity Onset
-A Aggressive paranoid schizophrenic [2]
schizophrenic
P-A Perfectionistic- catatonic or paranoid
aggressive schizophrenic [2]
schizophrenic
N-A Narcissistic resigned [1], avoidant [5]
resigned
NP-A Narcissistic- resigned [1], avoidant [5]
perfectionistic
resigned
Non-Aggressive (Narcissistic withdrawn)
Juvenile onset
N- Narcissistic schizoid-schizotypal [5]
borderline schizoid [8]
N-P Narcissistic schizoid-schizotypal [5]
perfectionist schizoid [8]
borderline borderline autistic child [7]
idiot savant [7]
Juvenile or maturity onset
N= Narcissistic hebephrenic schizophrenia [2]
schizophrenic
N=P Narcissistic- catatonic, hebephrenic
perfectionistic or acute-onset paranoid schizophrenic schizophrenia [2,4]
autistic child [7]
Maturity onset
-N Narcissistic hebephrenic schizophrenia [2]
schizophrenic expansive paraphrenia [4]
-NP Narcissistic- catatonic, hebephrenic or
perfectionistic acute-onset paranoid
schizophrenic schizophrenia [2,4]
____________________________________________________________
[1]Horney (refs. 11,15-20); [2]Kraepelin (ref. 28); [3]Leary (ref. 5); [4]Leonhard (ref. 12); [5]Millon (ref. 6); [6]Paré (ref. 29); [7]Rimland (ref. 13); [8]Stone (ref. 7).
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TABLE 2
Table 2. Possible genotypes corresponding to phenotypes of model
Phenotype Genotype
Aggression (A)
Absence of A a~a, a~a-, a~a~
A aa
A- aa-, a-a-
A- (phenocopy) aa
A= (environmentally induced) aa, aa-, a-a-
-A (environmentally induced) aa, aa-, a-a-
Narcissism (N)
Absence of N n~n, n~n-, n~n~
N nn
N- nn-, n-n-
N- (phenocopy) nn
N= (environmentally induced) nn, nn-, n-n-
-N (environmentally induced) nn, nn-, n-n-
Perfectionism (P)
Absence of P p~p~
P pp, pp~
~~~..~~~
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Hi Everyone,
Well, reading all the examples of 'creepy' behaviour above rang a lot of bells with me, and then also, thanks Cosmicjoe for the interesting article above.
The article mentioned the 'withdrawal' that Ns employ when things get too much for them, and my ex used to do this every couple of weeks.For no obvious reason, he would withdraw completely into himself for two or three days, and either refuse to interact with anybody, or if he absolutely had to, he would be extremely unpleasant and verbally cruel. Then with no obvious reason again, he would be back to 'normal' until the next time.
I've sometimes asked myself recently, (and now I guess I'm asking you!)...how does a guy like him act when there is a young baby in the home, needing attention and hard work? Can he still indulge in the luxury of these withdrawal periods, or does he have to bite the bullet?
Hope the weekend is going okay for everybody,
Sincerely,
Lara.
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Hi Cosmic Joe, interesting stuff above but I find it tricky to read here, any chance you could post me a website link or reference please? Thank you.
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Many times when I would remind him of things he had said or promised, he would respond with "I may have said those things, but I don't remember." Even when I have them in writing, he won't acknowledge that he actually wrote
EEEKSS This is to scary..and ""creepy"' This is the exact phrase my N B/F says over and over. He cannot remember what he says to me. Even when it is in an e mail HE WROTE! He will not acknowledge what he wrote.
I have,over a long period of time (unfortunitly) come to see that all these N's have the same traits or pretty much the same.
Everything i have read here on this board is as if you have all been speaking with this creep. Last night i was given the "soap box manic lecture" How i needed to get my priotieys streight and that my life was a mess and I was not showing enough concern for "important" things(This began because of a situaton I am dealing with but might directely affect HIM). Then i see he has been on the internet until 3 am playing on the chat,posting little pics and acting has if he is 12 instead of 49. Again it is the same thing of "Do as I say-Not as I do-The constant feeling one has with these N's is that you are dealing not jsut with Alice in the Looking Glass but with someone who is out of there mind. We have to keep that thought and realize these people are very very SICK (and im trying sooooo hard to break free) )N mother,,N grandmother,N brother)
wildrain~
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I thought you must be dating my N but since you are married, it must be his brother. Yes, theya re sick, sick, sick. It is always do as I say not as I do. It is overwhelming at times how this thread has hit the ex straight on. I was the selfish one, I was the controlling one, I was the messed up one, when I was actually succuessful, in therapy, doing everything within the range of reason to help him and the relatinship. What made it worse is he made all these promises that things would be better when his current "dire" situation ended. OF course when it did he was already long gone.
I've missed him a bit this holiday weekend although I know there is no turning back. We used to have fun on SUmmer weekends before he turned into the devil.
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N's are not content to construct and articulate a sound argument, they appear to have a deep need to crush the other person with the most vicious personal attacks.When you say 'ouch' they then attack again by accusing you being too sensitive or, my personal favorite , "you are getting all defensive", as if being defensive while under attack was some character defect.
They people are bad as well as mad. Scott Peck knows his S**T.
You've described my Nbrother to the "T." I believe he's worse than my Nparents in this regard. His whole purpose in his behavior to me was to make me cry. When he did he would laugh in my face and then say "overly sensitive", "cry baby", "can't take a joke?" "you are getting all defensive", "I was just having some fun."
It took me many, many years before I learned there was absolutely no defense against his attacks. The best defense was to stop all relations with him. My parent coddled him, catered to him, cried when as an adult he looked like he might quit school before getting his teaching certificate, ad nauseum. He could do no wrong. And worst of all they taught him everything he knows how to do to others. Sick!
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My Nmother and Nfather both have ailments. My Nmother's is from stress. Her adrenal glands are the size of peas!!! This is from not addressing her childhood cr*p! The stress of living with constant fear, anxiety, depression, PTSD, etc. zapped her immune system years ago. Now she's got every ailment under the sun from having a weakened immune system. There's always something new. I'm glad I don't talk to them on a regular basis or I'd be hearing all about my poor Nmother.
Neither one of Nparents take care of themselves yet have the time and always had the money to do it.
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Hi ITexperiment! first off, I wouldn't be honest with you if I didn't tell you I'm a wee bit confused about your handle here and - I could be way out in left field!- but I find it a bit disturbing. I think I've read some of your stuff on other posts so I may have the gyst of your history. Anyway- really intersting comments on N ailments. somatic ns are very much hypochondriacs, histrionic etc. That's one of their ways of getting attention. They also do have legiitimate health problems. My ex N was a somatic N- a sex addict and defined himself by his many physical complaints- real and imagined. He has migraines- I get them too, I know how excrutiating they are- but his were the most dramatic I've ever witnessed- and I'm a nurse! you'd think an alien was crawling out of his head!! He took every little thing and turned it into a major crisis. Lots of dramatic sighing, noises, head in hands etc. I found for me the best way to shut this behaviour down was to completely ignore his theatre arts. What a bad nurse eh?? How insensitive and cruel on my part- and esp. because I am a nurse!!!. " What kind of nurse are you...do you treat your clients this way?." I see this behaviour as not only a way of getting attention but it's childish behavour- that's where Ns are stuck. Also my N was abandoned by his mother at age 6 when she died. He was left with an abusive father. He is filled with rage about his mother's abandonment and this has fueled- typical N- his rage and abuse of women. I think all the ailments and their exaggeration is also a way to elicit the mothering he never had. That's also why alot of somatic Ns pick women as partners who are nurturers and " fixers" to take care of them and to put up " unconditoinally" with all their abuse. They don't want friends or lovers with their women- they want their mommies. Pretty impossible then to have any kind of a sexual relationship with your surrogate mother eh?! Anyway, my ex N and his " owies and booboos" !!! are out there and not my problem. My mother was also a somatic N and she was one of the biggest hypochondriacs I've ever met. funny too how they are addicted to doctor shopping, have no qualms about having surgery- even when not warranted- and have no problem taking any kind of medication-" oh poor me...I have all this ill health...I need people to feel sorry for me and take care of me" And hey, it's all about the old one upmanship. " You think YOU'RE sick...or have problems...well, let me tell you about MY health and how many pills I have to take, how many specialists I have to see...". My ex N seemed to view my medication- ie. how many pills I took a day- as some sort of contest..." I'M sicker than YOU, look how many MORE pills I have to take"... Great comments! Look forward to your posts. Keep strong and be good to yourself- it can actually be learned and achievable!!!
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Hi ITexperiment! first off, I wouldn't be honest with you if I didn't tell you I'm a wee bit confused about your handle here and - I could be way out in left field!- but I find it a bit disturbing.
:? I am confused about how you could be confused! :o
Moira, I was quite clear about what my name means.
Let me repeat: I was literally turned into a sexual experiment perpetrated by my Nparents and biological father. I said that in my initial post to the board. I was made into an "it." Thus the name ITexperiment.
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Hi ITexperiment! Thanks for reply. I thought I did get it- maybe didn't state my query in more comprehensive way. My real thing was I personally don't focus on labels and I guess I am concerned this is your identity, the way you define yourself and I know you're much more than your label! My other concern is besides the obvious pain- which I can't begin to wrap my mind about , is the effect this has on your self esteem. I'm bipolar and I don't define myself by it or feel the need to explain it- it just happens to be a part of who I am. don't intend to sound critical at all or trite.
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Hi ITexperiment! Thanks for reply. I thought I did get it- maybe didn't state my query in more comprehensive way.
Your inquiry was puzzling.
My real thing was I personally don't focus on labels and I guess I am concerned this is your identity, the way you define yourself and I know you're much more than your label!
Except you did not communicate your real thing. You expressed something else which I have yet to even grasp. Perhaps judgment of what I am doing with my life? Concerned this is your identity? That is not the way you came across and is still not the way you are coming across (to me).
Of course I am much more than a label. This memory surfaced 9 months ago. It is actually at the core of what happened to me. It is something I identify with right now. I WAS an experiment and I live with THE EFFECT of that today. The effect is transitory.
My other concern is besides the obvious pain- which I can't begin to wrap my mind about,
You can't go there unless you've been there. And I don't expect anyone to even grasp the depth of pain I suffered. I shared it as only a reference point.
is the effect this has on your self esteem.
What? The perceived label or the abuse?
I'm bipolar and I don't define myself by it or feel the need to explain it- it just happens to be a part of who I am. don't intend to sound critical at all or trite.
Comparing your bipolar to my situation is incongruous. The effects of Bipolar will remain with you for life. My memory's effect, on the other hand, is fugacious.
I didn't explain my abuse either! You'll have to read that in my books! :) Again, the information shared was a reference point.