Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Anonymous on May 25, 2005, 07:09:43 AM
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It's finally sunk in to my soon to be ex-husband, that I'm actually going through the divorce. I have a ton of reasons to be leaving, and the only regret I have in that is that I hadn't done it sooner. Without a doubt, he has strong narcissistic characteristics, and learning about this disorder has helped me in my dealings with him, not to mention, strengthened me to walk away from this toxic relationship.
What is really concerning me now is how he is using our 8 year old daughter's beautiful heart and natural desire to see her parents together to his advantage. It's been cyclical during the past 2 years of our seperation, but now that the end is in sight, he's really upped the ante.
I wish I could say he's badmouthing me, because that would be more obvious to my daughter that what he's doing is wrong, but he's not. What he has been doing and has intensified recently is coming across as my victim to her. He's asserted to her from the beginning that he doesn't know why mommy left, that I just don't like him anymore and that he'd like me back. But his efforts are getting worse.
From the beginning, I told him that we should not get her involved, when he said he didn't know what to tell her. I said I tell her that we had both tried to make things work, but couldn't, and that what matters is that we love her and will always be there for her. That has always been my stance, and I told him that's what he should say for her sake.
But I find myself increasingly more and more in a corner, as he insists on painting himself as a helpless, bewildered victim.
He shows her videos of happier times, holidays shots, when she was a baby, that kind of thing. He fabricates our history, making up stories of what our favorite band was, music, wonderful surprises he did for me, that kind of crap. He puts on videos that we used to like to watch together (that was about the extent of our sharing as a couple), and of course will tell her that that was "our movie.
And now he's out and out telling her that he loves me and wants me to come back.
He knows why counseling is no longer an option. He knows what he did, has done over years, knows why I won't come back, why it's too late.
The thing is, I stood by that man for 15 years, through thick and thin. He cheated on me, never took responsibility, totally entitled and extremely verbally abusive. He's all into his partying - he's a functional alcholic among other things - and the final straw was when he abandoned me and my child during a weekend family crisis to go party with a friend instead.
But I can't tell my daughter this. She askes me why I left. I remind her of what it was like. The sudden explosion of hostility was unbearable. At taht time, she was the one who encouraged me to leave. She seemed to understand at the beginning, and even as recently as this past Christmas, even after he sat her down and showed her all the "happy family" videos from the past. We had a long talk, and I asked her to trust me that I would never have left if there was any chance of making things better, that I would never hurt her like that, and that I had good reason. I told her that she couldn't get us back together again, that it's normal for children to want their parents back, that I understood and was sorry this was so hard on her, but that we both loved her and would always be there for her and that would never change.
She seemed to accept that, and things were okay, until her father launched a new campaign to get me back. Her emotional state of mind now and this new effort are not coincidental, and I can't believe he would do this to her...I mean, I can...but I can't!
I refuse to be as ignorant as he is, and tell her what he's done or is like to justify my reasons for not going back, but the fact still remains, I'm looking pretty bad to my daughter now, and he's looking like the good guy.
This is so insidious, because when he has her, he will let her stay up till midnight watching movies with him and then let her stay home from school the next day. We have joint custody and our jobs necessitates one of us having her for several days while the other one works. He does this even after I tell him she's having a harder time in school because of missed days.
This week I told him the final papers were drawn up and we need to sign them. In just this short time, I have seen a more dramatic change in his behavior to where he seems to be focused only on bonding with her as her favorite buddy and undermining me.
Yesterday, he saw us in a parking lot, came over to the car, got in and tried to hang with us a bit. I turned my car engine to go, and he had a smart remark to make, but what really got me was that he cupped his hand and whispered in her ear, before he left. I later asked her what he said, and she said that he told her not to tell me, but that when he gets her tomorrow, he's going to let her stay up late at night, watch movies with him and keep her home from school. When he was in the car, each time she told him she missed him, he'd kiss her on the check or touch her lovingly, and then he'd roll his eyes and shake his head, like he couldn't believe I was doing this to her, and then he'd be all sympathetic to her.
I can see the change in my daughter too, how she looks at me, how angry she is, how she believes daddy knows how she feels and cares and wants her to have what she wants, but mean old mommy won't. And I know this is all due to his manipulating of this girl's heart. She seems to be better after I assure her I love her and reiterate that to go back would be to place her and myself in more emotional stress and grief, but I can also see that she's really suffering, and at this moment, doesn't care about that. She just wants us to get back together "like the old days", which is a total fabrication of her father's. We were never that happy.
She can't defend herself from him when she's with him, and doesn't know she needs to.
I don't know what to do. I have to bite my tongue and not tell her what he's really like, what he's done, etc. But how do I protect her? How can I fight this man who is playing on her precious heart for his own purposes? I'm afraid for her, afraid that he will use her to punish me in increasingly hurtful ways to her.
Maybe what I need to do is just vent like this. I know I have to focus on spending quality time with her. I know I have to set boundaries and expectations for her in my home. I know I can't and won't say bad things about her father to her, and I know I have to make myself available and create the safe place in my home for her to be able to talk.
And while it's not appropriate for me to tell her the truth about her father, I would like to be able to find a way to teach her about the nature of manipulation. Not as it relates to her dad, but as it relates to human interaction. She can draw the correlation on her own when she is emotionally and psychological able to, but I do feel she needs to be educated as to these dynamics.
Has anyone else had experience with this, and if so, what resources did you use? I'm thinking about taking her to someone who specializes in working with kids going through a divorce, as well. I need some help here. Has anyone had experience with that?
I've made a decision not to engage her father in any conversation except as it concerns our daughter, but only in terms of her education, whatever. I won't discuss what he's doing with her, becuase I know what his reaction will be, and it will be a total waste of time. I don't need to set myself up in that way. It's a fine line for me, and I need to perhaps address choices and its affect on her and stay away from addressing his motives.
Thanks for letting me vent here. I feel a little better already.
Hopeful
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Hi hopeful, try the forum at this site below... They're pretty good with this kind of thing. Supportive and helpful too. Best wishes to you.
http://www.drirene.com/catbox/index.php?act=idx
Your story is similar to many others there....try them out.
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Welcome Hopeful. Your daughter trusts you and you’re doing a good job in handling the divorce fairly.
He is not behaving as a responsible parent. Can I ask why you have joint custody? Can this change?
Is it in her best interests to have joint custody? I don’t think so from what you’ve said. He sounds an incredibly harmful influence. I don’t know how this works where you are, but I’d go to court to get sole custody.
Sorry I can’t comment further, I don’t have the knowledge but I guess others will. Well done for venting! :) I’m glad you feel a little better. Portia
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Dear Hopeful,
Welcome to this site. I'm very sorry for the trauma that your H is willing to inflict on your daughter. N's do not care about anyone but themselves, so her pain is of no consequence to him. She is his tool to get what he wants.
I realize you have work issues that necessitate her being cared for by someone else for periods of time. However, her father is harming her when she is in his care. I would definitely get her into some counselling so she has an outside party to discuss her frustrations with. I agree with Portia that aiming for full custody should be your goal, but in the meantime, you need to get some leverage. The counselor may suggest that the three of you do family counseling so your daughter can hear from a professional how parents should behave in order to have a healthy co-parenting situation. I am just guessing here as my children were older (16 and 20) when my divorce took place, so they are old enough to understand what is going on and make their own choices on spending time with their father.
I would definitely talk to a social worker or counselor at your daughter's school and notify them of what is happening when she is in her father's care. They may be able to get authorities involved if he is allowing her to miss school for no reason and without your permission.
Do you have a guardian ad lidem involved in your divorce process? If so, that person should also be notified of the stunts your H is pulling. If you don't have one currently involved, I would talk to your attorney about getting one assigned by the court.
I am just pulling information from things friends have had to do to protect their children and none of it is from personal experience. I hope you find some of it useful. Good luck.
Brigid
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Hopeful... I'm glad, despite your current situation, that you picked this word for your name here. That's what you can and should be, hopeful. She may not see it now, but some day, your daughter will know what a woman is worth, because of you....she will have a chance to know what true love is, because you loved yourself enough to leave a man who could not love.
When I first divorced my highly functioning alcoholic, verbally abusive, cheating, manipulative, narcissistic baby/bully of an ex (sounds familiar, no?), he pulled similar stuff on my children. My son was 8, my daughter was 4.
I felt trapped, because I couldn't tell them the "truth" about dad, as I knew (as you know) that would put them squarely in the middle of a very adult situation. I also knew (as you know, but maybe you need to hear again) that talking about the ex in a "bad" way, (which is the only way it would sound to tell the truth about him...it's pretty bad) would only hurt my children more.
Some of my siblings (not divorced) would say: "but how can you protect him this way?" I suppose that's what it looked like, and why it was so hard for me. But it isn't about protecting him....at all. It's about reassuring your child that indeed, this is NOT her issue, not for a moment. To tell her the real story, would be to stoop to his level, and confuse her further. But you know that.
The other thing is that the person who draws the child into it the most, whether it be to "badmouth" or present thier side of things, will most likely be the person the kids come to hate the most. Not right now, as your daughter is only eight, but later, and in the long run.
My kids are teenagers now, and they know what goes on, and they are smart enough to be figuring out these things about dad for themselves. It is sad, they are beginning to resent him, and it makes me feel sad for them that they don't have a dad who puts them above his own self interests, but at least now they are seeing who he is. It took a while.
I still don't see how it helps me in any way, though, to see how dissapointed they are that he is a fake. I guess I feel better because they can start to protect themselves against that type of person.
That said, don't be surprised, if the "daddy and daughter" sweetness he is plying her with now, turns nasty and mean as soon as you finalize the divorce. You know he is playing an N game, but she may be shocked when he changes the rules.
Which is why you might consider counseling for her now. Not so your daughter will see your side (give THAT up....sounds like you know better anyway) but so she has some other party to share with already when the tides turn with her dad.
About joint custody: I have that with my ex, and he uses that to treat his children as commodities to broker deals with, weapons to punish me with, and tools to stay connected to and with me way beyond just co parenting. You know how hard it is to coparent with a Narcissist. Even though he cheated on me repeatedly, several different mental health professionals have told me (we've been divorce 8-9 years): leaving a narcissist is the biggest F YOU you could possibly give them. He will forever be bitter and try to punish you for that! And he will use your children to do so! WOW. They were right then and now. I am learning to disconnect, emotionally, as much as I can from him, but it's tough as now that his new wife cannot have children, he has upped the ante and drags me to court regularly (also, my kids are now speaking up for themselves, which is infuriating him more).
Is there anyway you can limit his visitation? I know it's hard, at the moment, career wise, but things do change, and custody orders are tough, very tough, to change, especially with an ex A**h***.
Please, whatever you do, DO NOT sign into the agreement, anything about staying in the same city, county or state as your ex while your child is a minor. THIS, I will regret forever. (long story.....trust me, don't do it).
The ONLY time I have seen joint cusody work, is between two very kind hearted adults, who TRULY put their bad divorce feelings aside and put thier 8 year old daughter first, always first, in anything they do as co parents. As a result, the child mostly lives with the mom, but feels completely comfortable with dad, and has openly discussed with both parents, that one day, she may want to go live with dad instead, and just visit mom 4-5 times a week (one or two overnights...her choice...reverse of what it is). Mind you, this is ONE divorced couple out of many that I know.
But we know you are not dealing with another adult. So don't sign anything that traps you in a place, or in a deal. Get your daughter some help....
And by the way, maybe I should have started with this:
you are AMAZING. I think your composure and intellegence about this situation is inspiring. THIS is why your daughter will be ok...kids only need ONE good parent (two would be great....but you'll more than make up for her rotten dad).
Bless you...sending you light and strength.
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Hi everybody,
I just had a question for everyone.
Why is it just assumed that telling your kids about their father's despicable behavior is harmful to them? I'm not saying it isn't, but there seems to be an assumption that it is a fact and I just wonder if it is.
My experience is with adults so I know it is vastly different, but I can tell you this. I sat back and was Mr. Nice Guy and assumed no one would believe the BS my brother was spewing about me.
Well guess what? A lot of people did and still do believe it. And part of the reason is I didn't counter every lie with the facts.
It seems like your kids are already being used and manipulated. Are you sure telling them what a manipulative creep their fathers are would harm them? Is it possible an eight year old can understand more than we think? Is it possible your kids are being subtly abused already with no way for them to protect themselves because they don't know the truth?
I don't know the answers to these questions regarding kids. I hope someone will explain it to me, because I'm not sure the assumption is correct.
I hope I don't sound judgemental or snotty, I just hate to think there is no antidote to brainwashing other than a vague hope that time will heal the damage done by the lies.
mudpup
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Hopeful guest, you are welcome here. Keep doing what you are doing. It is the best course of action out of a bunch of not so great choices. It WILL pay off in the end with a daughter who trusts you and feel safe with you. It is tempting to blow the lid off things and say exactly what is going on. You recognize that your child daughter cannot deal with that. Perhaps at some point in the future your grown-up daughter will be able to talk with you about it. She will see his behavior for what it is a LONG time before that, though. I agree about setting up some counseling so she has someone outside her family situation she can talk with. You are not supporting his bahavior by not talking about it with your daughter, you are allowing him the time and rope to hang himself with others, your daughter included.
It is clear that you are doing a great job as mom by the way you put your daughter's well being above your own desires in a very difficult situation. This situation will pass. These circumstances will pass. It can't last forever, especially with a N in the picture Consistency is not their strong suit. :) Keep building your relationship with your daughter for that time. Keep letting her know that she still has both parents and that you are looking out for her and what she needs to take care of her. Keep thinking about that day 10 years from now at her high school graduation, when the N doesn't show up (unless it makes him look good somehow). An N won't be there for her. You can be.
In the meantime, keep venting/ragin/posting here and get the support and validation from here and other safe places as well. Have you considered therapy or counselling for yourself? Anything that helps lighten your load.
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Hopeful, the more I read this:
I later asked her what he said, and she said that he told her not to tell me, but that when he gets her tomorrow, he's going to let her stay up late at night, watch movies with him and keep her home from school.
the more inappropriate I find his behaviour. An adult and an 8 year old staying up to watch movies and keeping her off school? It could at the least be making her a real 'Daddy's Girl' in the most manipulative sense. She isn't a substitute for you and she isn't a pawn to be used and abused by him. This is abuse.
But the good thing is she's telling you. Maybe she realises that Dad is somehow wrong in what he's doing? And maybe she wants you to set the limits for her (and him)? I think I would want that, at that age. I wouldn't want to feel like I had to make the decisions about what is right and wrong, if you see what I mean. I think I'm kind of agreeing with Mudpup...portia
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All good questions, Mudpuppy. Something we wrestle with all the time.
I think the difference here is that you are dealing with an adult, in body anyway, who has choices not attached to a parent and the connection that child may feel toward parents.
For your brother to be "exposed" to other adults, who also have adult perspectives and reasoning capabilities, is not as dangerous as bringing an 8 year old into an adult battle.
I currently must tell my children what thier father is up to, as they want to know WHY I have to spend thier college money in the court system and WHY dad won't listen when they want to come to my house....etc. But they are teenagers now.
BUT even when asked, the "truth" backfires, as last week, I told my son that I won the right for him to speak to a counselor (his dad fought it) and that was a simple statement of fact and he said "why do you have to tell me BAD things about dad?" He is acknowledging that his dad fighting me in court over his own right to a voice is BAD, HE put the judgement on it, I did not. His statement was a lash out to his dad, in a safe place (with me). But he is almost adult. 8 years ago, he would not have understood this (not that he totally does now) it seems.
It's tricky. And the N's set that up. But kids need to be kids and when ANY adult drags them in, that is the adult who is damaging thier relationship with thier kid. I'm not sure how it works, but it seems to make sense.
When I got divorced, one of the parents of my students, a very wealthy woman, with a famous name and famous relatives, took me out to a nice dinner. She said she did this to tell me one thing (well and she probably felt sorry for me).
Do not bad mouth your ex. She said she knew her dad was a selfish bastard, a womanizer and had hurt her mother. She knew this pretty young. But her mother spent the rest of this girl's underage years telling the daughter the same....dwelling on her ex and his failings as a father, husband and human. She said it hurt her because her mother never gave her the chance to form her own conlusions about her dad (which she had formed already) and watched her mother do a bitter version of life, spoiling her time with her daughter, with the purpose of trying to spoil whatever time she had with her dad.
She resents her mother to this day, AND her dad, just not as much..
I think it's about showing your kids a loving way to do life or a spiteful way...at least that's it in the long run. If you focus on what a jerk he is, THEY feel stuck with your bad memories of dad...you are keeping them focused on something painful for YOU.
HERE IS THE BOTTOM LINE:They get to have a relationship with that father independent of my feelings about the jerk. It's very tricky, and I would love for an expert to wiegh in here. But this is what I have gleaned from my experiences in counseling, observing others, hearing stories. Yes it's infuritating at times!! But keeping my focus on that bastard does NO good for showing my kids how to do life. THEY know I'm not accepting his crap...I divorced him and I protect theirs and my interests legally.
But I don't need to add fuel to whatever therapy they will need as adults. Geeez. they need at least one parent who focuses on them!
When my daughter was 8 or 9 she asked me why her grandma (dad's mother) hated me so much. I told her it's because her dad and I got divorced....but why did you, she asked: I told her married people make an agreement not to lie and daddy lied about having a girlfriend.
Mind you, at the time, I thought: oh, gosh, I've done it now.....why did I fall for this? But it was 4 years post divorce.
Anyway, my daughter said: Oh, dad seems like a person who would do that.
End of discussion. She then proceeded to tell me some fun she had with him.
She does not remember that discussion, and recently was very upset when I mentioned his infidelity (why did you tell me that?) She didn't remember.
Touchy subject.....thanks for the question....don't know if I have it all figured out, though.
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Welcome Hopeful.
I am constantly battling with my X N in regards to his poor treatment of the children so I know where you are coming from.
Is there any way that the time spent with Dad could be decreased? Based on the fact that he consistently keeps her home from school could be one of many reasons to cut back his time. Just a thought. I know it's not easy to change the status quo but I think a Judge would frown upon this.
Mud asked why it's not appropriate to tell the kids about X N. I have a different viewpoint from Hopeful and Mum regarding this. I used to believe that it would be harmful to them but the more my daughter (7) exhibited confusion over her Dad's behaviors etc, the more I doubted my stance on this. About 8 months ago I calmly explained to my daughter why Dad left and gave her the facts in a non emotional manner. I basically told her the Dad wanted to live alone. I also touched on his tendency to be rageful and destructive.....she already knew this. Kids aren't stupid and she pretty much knew all of this anyway. For my situation I felt it benefited my daughter and she hasn't asked about or wondered about the demise of the marriage since.
I'm sure others will think what I did was wrong but I feel in my heart that it was right for my daughter. I don't bash her Dad to her. I gave her a glimpse into the type of personality of her Father has and why it's not desirable or acceptable to act the ways in which he does. So she knows that I know what she already knew. :wink: Follow? I feel like I validated her feelings and concerns regarding her Dad and she now knows that it's not her but it is Dad. We all know how N's can make you question your own sanity at times. I didn't want my daughter to fall victim to that.
Mia
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Hi mum,
I suspect you are right on all counts, it just seems counterintuitive. You tell the truth to a lie and its supposed to defeat it. But it doesn't a lot of the time. Doesn't make sense to me, but then when did people ever make sense? :roll:
So the question I have is, does the same thing apply to adults?
Is it better to just put on a smiley face and and hope for the best?
mudpup
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mud: nope, (I think) adults are responsible for themselves.
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In some ways I feel it is no different from warning your child about predators in society. It's not something I harp on every day but I have addressed it with the children for their own safety. Yes, he is their Father but a predator nonetheless. By informing them I have prepared them.
I think children need to learn life lessons early and need to know when something or someone is wrong....even if that means pointing the finger at a child's parent.
I don't want to risk either one of my children becoming the child that begins to relate to the N and becomes enmeshed with the N. I don't think that in order for a child to be healthy they have to be kept in the dark about the truth and what is right. I want them to fully know what righteousness means at an early age.
If you find that your X N is *brainwashing* your child you may have no choice but to step in in order to set the record straight. JMHO.
Mia
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Thank you so much everybody for each thoughtful and insightful reply! I'm printing this out and taking it to work so I can read over your words again and consider each point made.
Thank you, Gardner, for the link. I visited and bookmarked the board. I most certainly will visit this board more indepth. I am already impressed by the depth of caring and insights of the people who post here.
Thanks!
Hopeful
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Can I ask why you have joint custody? Can this change?
Portia, Thank you for your reply and welcome!
At this point the joint custody is soley due to our working schedules. And actually I do have her a little more often than him, although he'll suddenly go into his "I miss her and want to see her more" phase, but that doesn't last long, because you know, there's always poker parties to go to and such!
With him, if I make it an issue, if I let him know I want her more, then he'll want her more and he won't let me have her as often as I do now. If I'm kind of nonchalant about it and make him feel I'm acquiescing to his needs by having her more than my regular time, then that's okay. It's kind of a pain to have to play this game, but it works, and if it's for her good, then I'll play it and play it well!
Unfortunately, I'm not financially or logistically capable of having her full-time. I prefer not to go to court for full custody. I'd rather virtually have it without calling it that, than put him in an adversarial position in court...which his mom would have the money to back him up, and I'm living on a shoestring right now.
Besides, I'd have a hard time, getting full custody I think. He puts on a good front, and he's smart enough to do the keeping her out of school thing intermittantly. He's just doing it more often these past few weeks, because school is almost out and he's pissed at me.
Hopeful
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N's do not care about anyone but themselves, so her pain is of no consequence to him. She is his tool to get what he wants...
Brigid, thank you for your warm welcome. Oh, so true! N's really don't care about anyone but themselves. Took me over a decade to figure that one out, but as soon as I did it changed everything for me. Illusions do die hard though...
The counselor may suggest that the three of you do family counseling so your daughter can hear from a professional how parents should behave in order to have a healthy co-parenting situation.
As for family counseling, I don't see that happening, and I don't want to be involved in anything that would engage me further with him. If I thought it would be beneficial to our daughter, I would, but I think that would just give him something else to hook his claws into with me or place her in the middle of. I don't see it affecting his behavior or choices with her at all, and if anything would only make him more...spiteful and punishing.
I do think my daughter would benefit from individual counseling though, to get perspective from another person and to be able to give voice to her fears to someone other than her mom.
Do you have a guardian ad lidem involved in your divorce process?
I don't know what a guardian ad liem is. I don't really have a lawyer as such...I'm going through one of those uncontested divorce mills. It's the best I can do. He won't pay for any of it. I did draw up a separation aggreement that they then put together for me. It doesn't cover much, but we don't have anything together.
I just wanted one anyway, because I'm starting up a new business on my own, and want to make sure everything is clearly separated. He never had any money and he drained what money I had, plus we declared bankruptcy last year, so there's no property, no savings, nothing.
Again, thanks for the welcome, and I did find your suggestions helpful. Just being able to think about other alternatives or options goes a long way to addressing the fear of helplessness you can sometimes feel.
Hopeful
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Oh, mum, my heart goes out to you. Thank you for sharing your experiences with me and your very, very kind words. They strengthen and encourage me.
Yes, it does look like we're protecting our ex's, but what we're really protecting is our children. I think you are right about being careful about badmouthing the other parent, even if it's true. What I'm trying to figure out is a balance between that and being truthful...or helping my daughter to discern in her reality. I think I want to go into this further with mudpuppy's post. But I totally agree, meeting your ex-N on their level is not the way to go, but I can't help but feel there's another solution to either spelling everything out or not addressing it at all.
And you know, that is another good reason for my daughter to go into counseling. Not just to help her with the divorce, but to help her when she inevitably comes face to face with the reality of his narcissism. Which means I need to find someone who is well-trained in these dynamics. Thank you for mentioning this aspect of counseling.
I'm sorry your ex is using the joint custody as a weapon. I have a feeling that is what mine will do...he already is. I am also learning to disconnect emotionally. I have found that's the best way to maintain my sanity and self-control. Otherwise, if I catch any of the stuff he tosses my way, even if to disagree, it's like getting sucked down into a whirlpool of emotional crap. Next thing I know I'm right in the middle of some major conflict dance with him, and that's what he wants...he gets the validation that he's still important enough to me to get upset about. No thanks.
And thank you for the advice about the custody agreement. I have a general one in the separation agreement that just says we share joint custody as we determine is best for our child. We already live in two different states (just across the border), but it makes sense not to pin yourself down.
So glad your kids are old enough to speak up for themselves. Such a shame they have to deal with this court thing though. Hats off to you, as you stand by your truth with them.
THIS is why your daughter will be ok...kids only need ONE good parent (two would be great....but you'll more than make up for her rotten dad).
Oh, this is a gem! Thank you. It would be great if there were two good parents, but I do need to remember that I have a tremendous impact on my child, too, and maybe in the long run, even more.
Thank you, mum, and I'm sending you light too.
Hopeful
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longtire, thank you so much for your welcome, and your supportive words. I really appreciate them!
I especially like what you said about giving him more rope. I do believe that is eventually what he will do. The trick is to minimize the damage until he does. And thank you so much for reminding me that consistency is not their strong suit! Yes, that is so true, and I need to remind myself of that right now. :-)
You know, I haven't thought about counseling for me..I tend to shy away from that, but I might actually be driven to it! Funny, at the beginning of our separation, he told me that he didn't need counseling but I did. I said after all these years with him I probably did!
Anyway, this place is a wonderful way to lighten the load, and I do so appreciate all your kindness in responding to my post. I posted and then went to see my daughter in a school play. Her father was there, and the way he looked at me made my blood run cold. I actually felt afraid.
Tomorrow should be the day we sign, unless he finds a way to get out of it. I didn't tell him our daughter told me the "secret", but I did point out that her play was running tomorrow and Friday, so he's taking her to school those two days instead of keeping her home.
He walked out with me, and I was so uncomfortable. I just wanted to get away. I hope tomorrow is better, but whether or not he's in a good or bad space, I'm going to do what I can to get that signature. It's my freedom lease!
In the meantime, I'll be praying for my little girl tonight, while I'm at work, and seeing her surrounded by loving protective light. She is an angel in and of herself.
Hopeful
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She isn't a substitute for you and she isn't a pawn to be used and abused by him. This is abuse....But the good thing is she's telling you. Maybe she realises that Dad is somehow wrong in what he's doing?
Portia, my daughter told me, because I asked her. And we do have a good relationship. I don't know if she realizes that he's somehow wrong, but I do know that she trusts me and cherishes our closeness.
And yes, it is abuse. You hit it so right on that she isn't a substitute for me. But in her father's world, she is. I no longer am the adoring female worshipper I once was. He no longer commands that kind of attention from other girls like he used to...but he has his daughter!
In many ways she is filling in his need for his fix. She is the one who thinks about him, loves him, sees him as wonderful, etc. I truly hope for an older substitute...I want him to find a girlfriend, single, no kids (he will want to play house with his daughter or use her to occupy the other children if his girlfriend does have any). Someone who can devote all her time to him and will want to go out and date. This way his daughter will be in the way. She'll get bumped and his needs will get met and so will mine, because he'll need me to have her while he's out courting.
My little girl will get her heart broken, but I will be here, and so will the support I set up for her.
I pray for that man's happiness with another woman every day.
Hopeful
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I'd like to respond to mudpup's and Mia's post here.
Hi everybody,
I just had a question for everyone.
Why is it just assumed that telling your kids about their father's despicable behavior is harmful to them?...It seems like your kids are already being used and manipulated. Are you sure telling them what a manipulative creep their fathers are would harm them? Is it possible an eight year old can understand more than we think? Is it possible your kids are being subtly abused already with no way for them to protect themselves because they don't know the truth?
I hope I don't sound judgemental or snotty, I just hate to think there is no antidote to brainwashing other than a vague hope that time will heal the damage done by the lies.
mudpup
Thank you so much, mudpup, for asking these thought provoking questions. And no, I don't think you're being judgemental or snotty! I read your post and Mia's further down, and I can see where both of you are coming from, as well as mum's. So this post is for you too, Mia!
I think what I have to be careful about is being mindful of my daughter's perception, what she's capable or ready to hear and also helping her to name her reality. It is abuse for her to go through what she's going through, and I don't want to add to that abuse with denial of her reality or "sideways anger" from my own agendas and unresolved issues with him.
I have to be very careful, and I have to take cues from my daughter as to what she's capable of or ready to hear. I think to a large part, it's intuitive, as every child is different. I think the more options I have, the better I will be able to respond, and I am certainly getting a treasure full of options and insights here!
I don't need to protect my H's image. I can't re-create him into something she needs, but I also don't need her to see him as I do. If I were dealing with a rational person, I think I would be happy with just that general stand of "we both tried to work it out, but couldn't". However, it's clear that her father isn't playing by those rules of common decency and respect.
However, I don't think I need to tell her all the specifics either...and I certainly don't get that from Mia's post. I respect how you handle the situation with your daughter, and I do agree, I feel the need to protect my child from her father's manipulation as I would any other predator.
I also want her to be able to identify this behavior as wrong, because it's here that she's laying down the patterns for how she will relate to other people...other men, and I don't want her to continue the long history of dysfunctional choices throughout my family line as I did.
This child is "all heart", very intuitive, and extremely empathic. And her father is exploiting it to the hilt. I need to find a way to protect that openess in her and also empower her to protect her own beautiful self from usuary.
The thing is, Mia, I had a similar conversation with my daughter earlier, and she remembered what it was like, and she was okay with it. It's just recently, her father has upped the ante with his vast loneliness, and his spoiling of her and his professed love for me, and it's impacting her big time. He's relentless in his game playing, and she's not holding up well now.
So, there is something inside of me that says I need to take further action. I did go into a little more detail yesterday when she asked me why I left again. But I only told her what she had personally experienced, reminded her and extrapolated generally from that.
My other concern about giving her too much informatoin or details is she, in her trusting heart, would likely confront him about it, and that would put her in the middle of a horrible tug of war where the only loser would truly be her. So I can't just come out and tell her the truth, because it would harm her in that way.
I think when my daughter's father plants a big fat lie in front of my child, and she brings that to my attention, I'm placed in a position where I have to address it or respond to it in some way. So for a good while now I've been telling her that I'm sorry her father had to tell her that. It's not true. I tell her that I think he's wrong to have said that to her, and to bring her into this, and that it doesn't matter. because what happened between mommy and daddy is between mommy and daddy.
I tell her that she has a right to love both parents, and what happens between big people is for big people to deal with. So I'm not whitewashing her dad, and I'm letting her know he's not ethical, but I'm not telling her specifically he's not ethical. I'm addressing each instance that comes to my attention as generally as possible.
In other words, I don't need to go into what he did or what he said or any specifics. I do cover the issue more generally in terms of principles. Does that make sense?
That way I can respect her love for him, her relationship with him, and not badmouth him per se, and still honestly address specific behavior, be upfront about how I feel, the choices I make and principles I hold. And she can draw her own conclusions.
The other day my daughter told me something her dad said about a partcular group that was supposed to be "our band", which I didn't even like this group! I told her that wasn't so. My daughter got quiet, and said "Daddy says a lot of things that aren't right."
And, because I wasn't thinking, and I immediately went into my..."oh, I want to honor her relationship with her father, and you shouldn't talk bad about about the other parent" mode, I said, "Oh, he just remembers things differently sometimes"
Aaarrgh! The fact is he lies...a lot. Now, I don't think I should have said "Yeah, he's a liar, and he's just saying this to manipulate you into believing we had more of a partnership, when actually it was really a relationship of usuary, and none of this stuff happened, because it's all a fantasy he's creating to make you feel sorry for him and try to pressure me into coming back with guilt, for his own reasons and not for you, because he really doesn't love you, because he's a narcissist, and what he thinks is love is really centered around his OWN BIG FAT NEEDS!"
...And I'm not saying anyone is saying I should do that....Just getting a little carried away here...(damn, that felt good!)
But I could have validated her perception, instead of sugar coating it. I could have said, "Yes, that's right, Daddy does say a lot of things that aren't right." Period.
Oh, this STINKS! This makes me so mad I have to go through this, that she has to, but it is what it is...
Well, I got to get going. Again, I just want to thank every one so much for your wonderful responses and helpful suggestions. Everyone has given me much to think about, and I don't feel anywhere near as alone as I did this morning. I'm taking your thoughts with me to work tonight.
With my gratitude,
Hopeful
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Hey, Hopeful. So kind of you to respond to everyone individually.
Careful what you wish for. I wished for my ex to get another woman and leave me alone. That worked out for a while, until she found she could not have children......and then all hell broke loose. She is determined to GET my children in a way, and a result, this woman that they once thought was pretty cool, my children now hate. I'm not sure that I still wouldn't wish for this, but it makes being at my ex's house extremely uncomfortable for my kids, as she calls all the shots, and is very controlling and mean. So, I would rather they like her at least a bit. Anyway, this is all with my ex's blessings (he can't be bothered, except to "own" them). It's all pretty sick.
so I doubt your ex will get a emotionally healthy woman....anyway, he can't keep one, obviously!!!
You sound like an awesome mom. You really do.
The other thing about being close to your daughter: it is a tightrope we walk, isn't it? I still fight this battle within.
But I have found that if my kids share that dad is a jerk, etc etc.....I try to listen and validate without putting my own spin on it. Otherwise: (and they have said this) they won't tell me anything!!!
So here's two versions (for your entertainment):
Version one (not to do....learned by doing)
Child (teenage): Dad and step mom won't let me eat anything without permission at thier house...nothing. I have to sneak between meal snacks... we can't eat anything at all!
Me: Wow! That's crazy!! You are old enough to determine your own need for a snack and how to pick something out to eat.
What jerks! That really makes me mad!!
Child: stop getting all upset. Stop calling dad names....I'm sorry I told you anything!
Version two: (learned by doing)
Child (teenage): Dad and step mom won't let me eat anything without permission at thier house...nothing. I have to sneak between meal snacks...we can't eat anything at all!
Me: Wow! That's different than my house, huh?
Child: Yeah! I mean I'm not a baby anymore, c'mon. Just because step mom has a weight problem doesn't mean it's my problem. I've seen her sneaking chocolate!
Me: Well, sometimes I tell you to think twice before you spoil a dinner I have planned.
Child: It's different mom! It's like a jail over there! I feel like I have choices here.
Me; well, I'm glad for you that you are here right now. But put down that cookie, we're going to have "real food soon". (that last sentence isn't always true...I never cook!!
:lol:
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But I could have validated her perception, instead of sugar coating it. I could have said, "Yes, that's right, Daddy does say a lot of things that aren't right." Period.
Hopeful, just keep rehearsing this kind of thing in your mind. One of these days it will just pop out at the right time. Whatever you do, don't beat yourself up for not being perfect and knowing the perfect response in the heat of the moment. It takes time to change old habits to new ones.
Your thoughtful replies are much appreciated. Don't feel that you HAVE to respond in depth to every reply, but if you feel like you have a bunch of stuff to get off your chest right now, we understand! :D In that case keep posting until you have it all out here.
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Hopeful,
You really sound like you have it together. Your daughter is blessed to have you as a Mom.
I will keep you and your daughter in my prayers as you deal with the relentless onslaught of h#ll from your X N.
Best wishes.
Mia
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Hopeful,
It sounds like you are approaching your situation as thoughtfully and carefully as you can and keeping your daughter's best interest in the forefront.
If there is any way you can swing it, some counseling may be beneficial for you to work through the pain he put you through and also in helping you to communicate with your daughter. My T has been very helpful to me in how to address certain situations with my children regarding their father.
Mudpuppy,
In regards to your question, it is a very delicate issue. Badmouthing their n parent can really backfire on the healthy parent. My children were told by their father about his cheating and lying (at my insistance when he left). They saw the devastation of their mother at that time. There was really nothing more I needed to say about that and they were old enough to form their own opinions.
I did finally decide that my 20-year-old son was old enough for me to explain his father's nism and why I believe that his personality is disordered--due to an alcoholic, very n father, enabling mother, etc., etc. I needed for him to have an understanding of the disorder and the fact that it will create situations where his father will lie about things, hide things, and basically be unreliable. He has never been abusive, but is an expert manipulator and very charassmatic and charming.
I tried to do this from a more clinical standpoint, saying that my therapist had diagnosed him and it wasn't just something I created in my head. But my son needs to know how to deal with his father moving forward and not just blindly believe and accept everything his dad tells him. I think he ultimately appreciated the discussion and it helped him to know that there was a somewhat medical explanation (my son is pre-med in college) for his father's deviant and despicable behavior. (his father had told him about his interest in pornography and masturbation shortly after he moved out).
I have not, however, had this discussion with my daughter and feel that she won't be ready until she is in college and somewhat more distanced from the situation. If my xh were being in any way destructive with our children, I wouldn't hesitate to make them aware of his behavior. But he really is only being destructive by having so little interest and involvement in their lives. I'm sure many of you would prefer that, but my kids do not understand it and I know it bothers them. I never miss anything, however, and am always available when they need me. Its the best I can do.
Hopeful - I wish you well and can feel your struggle and totally understand your overwhelming desire to protect your daughter. Bless you for that. She will eventually be proud of the mom who had the guts to leave a man who did not appreciate and love her. She will know that you always put her interests first and she will love you for that. Hopefully some day she will see her mom in a loving, healthy relationship that can provide a role model for her into the future.
God bless,
Brigid
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Brigid, Mia, Longtire, and Mum,
Thank you for your responses, your support and encouragement! When I first posted yesterday morning I was so frazzled, but just reading the responses and posting back really helped me to get clearer on where I was trying to go on this. I felt pretty fragmented, and writing helped me to pull things together, so I do feel stronger now.
Well...we didn't get to sign the papers today. He canceled. Second time this week. And he wasn't cooperative about meeting tomorrow either. I told him I needed closure. His response was, "I guess you do." And he said he'd talk to me later. But he did show up then later at my work and asked to see the papers, so I gave him his copy.
We'll see...
Longtire, rehearsing is a good word. I will take that to heart, and so is compassion. Thanks.
You're right about getting what you wish for, mum. I think I should step back from being so specific about what I think would be a good solution and just keep my heart open to a sense of resolution and peace for everyone involved. Seredipitous happenings are always better and more fun than anything I've ever been able to orchestrate anyway! Thanks for the reminder. :-) And thanks for examples! They were not only entertaining, but enlightening.
And thank you for your prayers, Mia. Even though my H canceled this morning, I felt more centered this morning than I did yesterday. I know it's because I'm aware of this board and the kindness that has been extended.
To everyone, again, thank you.
Hopeful