Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: guest on November 19, 2003, 01:26:27 PM
-
It's me, Engel. I just wanted to check in with you to see how you're feeling. The divorce stuff you described sounds awful. I am worried that with all of the ugliness around what happened this week, you may not be getting the support you need to get you through the trauma ahead. But you can do this and ultimately come out the winner, I know you can! Despite what your N tries to do to you.
I read yet another book about children of N's (Trapped in the Mirror) that suggests that it may take a long time for the children to see that the consistent love and provision of daily needs by the non-N parent is worth far more than the sporadic adoration and flashy gifts of the N parent, but eventually the children always figure it out.
I don't plan to actively participate in this forum (or at this point, any forum) but did want to let you know that I (and others) care how you're doing. (BTW, I know I should stay out of this, but I honestly didn't interpret MariaTree's posting to refer to you at all, and I think Lisa meant well when she came over here -- so please don't feel like people are against you. I understand completely why you might be feeling defensive right now -- I'm sure I would be the same way in your place -- but you were and are well-liked over at N-Partners and I find it sad that you don't seem to believe that any longer.)
Maybe we can figure out a way to communicate safely off-line sometime, since again, I really need a hiatus from on-line forums for a while. If not, at least please know that I'm thinking about you and sending positive vibes your way. Many hugs to you.
-
Engel,
I know your intentions were good when you posted this to hope. I read t that, I can not help but wonder if I am the only one who feels it is a little bit wishy washy on the content.
We all love you and miss you at N-Partners and we were your friends, however if you would just see that you miss represented Marias post, and you misread everyones feelings for you, Golly hope your N drug you down but I hope you can find some way for peace, and I have to stop and wonder why people just can not understand the whole picture of this situation. I just can't help myself when I see so many contradicting things there.
Now please do not think I am trying to attack you, I am not. But sometimes it is not what is said, it how it is said that matters. In this quote from you:
don't plan to actively participate in this forum (or at this point, any forum) but did want to let you know that I (and others) care how you're doing. (BTW, I know I should stay out of this, but I honestly didn't interpret MariaTree's posting to refer to you at all, and I think Lisa meant well when she came over here -- so please don't feel like people are against you. I understand completely why you might be feeling defensive right now -- I'm sure I would be the same way in your place -- but you were and are well-liked over at N-Partners and I find it sad that you don't seem to believe that any longer.)
To say you understand completely how hope could think people are against her, making her a bit defensive to what everyone said, still hope refuses to believe she was liked there and how sad you feel for her because of her MISS PLACED PERCEPTION of her feelings.
I am sorry but I have to think it really should have just been stated like this, it would have meant the same thing. "Hope, sorry that you continue to misjudge your own opinion, sorry you can not see how wonderful we all were to you, and I am sorry that you can not trust me when I tell you that you were wrong and I was right and Hope, ya just gotta know that I think you are a sad individual because you just cant see what I see, so best of luck in your search for your version of life, it doesnt match mine.
I really am just speaking for myself here, but if I were hope I would not have received one itty bitty bit of comfort from that. IMHO that just told her if she could have played the game by the rules she would not have been ejected from the game. I realised the game was rigged, that is exactly why I forfeited. Gives me the pride that I stood up for what I felt was right, and gives the other side the sense of victory. Sometimes I feel you come out the winner when you lose. Hell, thought I lost losing my xN, who really lost there? Not me, he gave me a one way ticket to freedom.
-
IMHO that just told her if she could have played the game by the rules she would not have been ejected from the game.
Jaded, I'm sorry if that's how my message came across. That was not at all what I thought or intended and I hope that Hope knows this. I don't have any interest in getting into an ongoing debate with you or anybody else on this message board or the other one. As one of your guests on the other thread said, none of these debates are going to change anything, either here or there; they only lead to more acrimony and hard feelings on both sides. That may be cynical of me, but I am extremely cynical at the moment, based on lots of experience with disillusionment. That's why I said I was going to withdraw from participating in any forums. I was just hoping to make Hope feel a bit better, because she is going through such a rough time. But according to you, I may have only made her feel worse. Whether you're right or wrong, it's probably best that I just withdraw from all communication from now on, as I had planned. I'm already starting to regret that I posted this one.
Hope, regardless of how you choose to interpret my post (and ultimately, it's your interpretation that matters to me, nobody else's), I did mean it well. Good luck with everything in your life.
-
Engel,
Hun I know your intentions were good. I was not attacking you on what you said. It is not the words you spoke all together, it just had an undertone. You do not have to apologise to me, you do not owe me that. I appreciate that you put forth your feelings to Hope, that showed you cared about her. I am trying to think of an example to show you what I mean. Oh got one: You are invited to dinner. You bake a cake for someone as a kind gesture. They thank you for it and you go about your merry way. The next day you call them and they mention something about the cake. You ask them how they liked the cake. They said oh it was good BUT...... it was a little dry...........it needed more icing...........They really liked milk chocolate instead of dark chocolate.......as a matter of fact, I should have known they liked white........
Yes you delivered a cake with good intentions. Yes they said they liked it, but in the next breath they were telling you everything they felt was wrong with the cake. So they basically said yes it is good.....BUT
I did not state this to hurt your feelings and I am not at all trying to do it now. Engel you have every right to speak your mind. I guess what I was trying to say is I always hate it when I have someone tell me something great about me only to follow it with a but.............
It kinda defeats their kind words they just spoke. I am only speaking about how I perceived. I would not dare claim to be speaking for hope. She is free to speak for herself. I just feel it is little things like this that create big things what we just experienced.
I do not know how many times my xN would back up a positive with a negative. It totally negates the whole compliment when that happens.
-
Engel:
I really appreciate what you said, and I read your post on the npartners board. On the other thread, I sent you a note, in case you were reading.
If you join this board, which takes about 15 seconds, you can send me a private message, and we can try to find a way to communicate.
Please consider this option.
I hope that you are still checking this thread out.
-
Engel: I didn't think Mariatree was necessarily referring to me. But, no matter who she was calling an N, it shouldn't have been allowed if that is the rules accoring to Sandahl. I was merely pointing out hypocrisy.
-
Jaded~
You're becoming very full of crap.
What Engel wrote to Hope was very heartfelt, she was stating facts that people on the Npartners board really liked her..why is that so odd to you?
Hope is a sweet and caring individual and so is Engel, they struck up a friendship and Engel cares about what Hope is going through!
You're just stirring shit and then analyzing the crap out of it. Stop it, it's getting old.
-
Engel:
I am really hoping you come back here to check on your thread. I guess I won't ever really know unless I hear from you. You were one of my favorite people on the board. I share your desire to find a way to connect.
If any of you know how to reach Engel, and can let her know I would love to talk to her, please pass on my message.
Thanks.
-
This is Max
Jaded - I don't know who you are, but I have to say that I am disappointed to see such attacks against Engel - your explanation doesn't fly.
I enjoyed and miss the association with you who have left or were banned and don't really understand what happened.
Hope, I really appreciated you on the N Partners board and wish you every success. I think about your situation and keep you in my prayers.
-
Hey Max,
Thats your opinion and ya know what. Having people shove their opinion down my throat or up my ars, is getting pretty old. So if ya dont like what I said, say it to me nicely or dont say it.
Now max if you really think about it, do you back your compliment up with ways they could have done it better. Ya well that isnt the way I like having compliments said to me.
But hey max, thank you for your opinion.
-
Guest,
I may be full of crap, but I do not hide behind a mask. If you got something to direct at me why dont you come out from hiding like a big sand, whoops girl.
Me stiring shit up, ya that is like double standard dont ya think? Either way this is getting old. Grow up and play nice now. Besides that I voiced my opinion, did not attack Engel. Good lord people do you have nothing better to do with your time?? I am over analyzing stuff? Like your anger and your refusal to spit your thoughts out with the mast off. Wow, ya youre right, I really must stop over analysing crap.
By the way, if yall want hope to come back on that forum. Maybe you should be saying that to Sand and not Hope. Unless you are wanting her to enter that forum magically by herself.
Hey Max, thanks for being man enough to state your opinion with your name standing behind it. Like I said before it is your opinion, every one has a right to share theirs, right?
-
Jaded,
Max is right.
Hope, Take care.
you are also in my prayers.
-rhd
-
thank you Max. I think about you as well. Please come back here and trade divorce stories.
Thank you to rhd as well.
I am touched by the kind thoughts.
I have a hearing next Wednesday, I can use some positive vibes.
-
Jaded..
I dont have to use my name to get my point across, it shouldnt matter to you who I am or who I was....but if you want , call me Sweetheart, there , since you need a name there ya go.
I've seen others on here voice opinions using their names and they caught all kinds of hell from some of you so Im here incognito. Live with it.
-
none of these debates are going to change anything, either here or there; they only lead to more acrimony and hard feelings on both sides.
Speaking for myself ...Personally, I am learning something from this. I am changed for having debated here and for witnessing others goin at it.
Jaded, I don't know wheather I share your interpretation. At first glance I don't think I'd have had that same response as you had. (I have a headache and I think I am fighting off the flu or something :( and would have to invest more energy than I have right now to read and feel it out for sure). AND I am certain I feel that what you said here in this thread was not an attack on anyone. And, you never said Hope was feeling anything. You only wrote about what you would have felt or did feel reading what E said. That is just not an attack in my book. You said you felt it was wishy washy. Anyway, you really worked to communicate and I find that so much more effective than statements like "full of crap."
I learned about you and about your perspective. I am going to reread the stuff here later and see how I feel too.
"...full of crap." Now that didn't do anything for clarifying anything for me...it aint even a good visual. Yeeesh.
P.S. I can relate to your trying to feel out word salad and direct communication and true intent vs. words. Oh and I like your zippy hutzpah. (didn't spell it right probably but ....)
-
Jaded-- please STOP with all of the negativity and anger, hiding it behind the guise of "my right to a voice".
Maybe in one way, you are truly discovering your voice, your assertiveness, your ability to question things presented to you, after living an egg shell, hell walk with xN. We all know what that is like. But please remember that there is BALANCE. You can go too far the other way as well.
This exchange was between Hope & Engel, and it was really not your business. You really should have left it alone Jaded. It is NOT a matter of your "right" to speak your opinion(yes, you have that) it was a matter of common courtesy, etiquette, thoughtfulness. Do you understand the difference??
Now, you may have even ruined Hope's chances of connecting with Engel, and she wantes too!!!
Engel is a sweet, SINCERE woman, who reached out with a loving heart and didn't deserve such a negative interference by a long shot. Engel, if you are reading this, know how much you are respected and liked.
Perhaps you are processing anger over xN(many of us are) and that is understandable, but to consistently unleash it on your fellow N partners is NOT okay by any means. WE ARE ALL IN THE SAME BOAT HERE, AND NEED TO ***SUPPORT*** one another.
You can let some things pass that you have feelings on, you know. You don't have to comment on every thing that you feel. Again, even though the message was written in a public forum(couldn't be helped) the conversation was meant to be between those two people. There is a time to be thoughtful, and courteous, and simply leave things alone.
Do you see the negative vibe and agruging you have succeeded in causing? Do you feel good about this? That is a serious question, NOT a put down. Ask yourself if you get a payoff-- something like feeling powerful where you have felt powerless before in your life, feeling heard where you have felt unheard, etc...
Please do not just lash out and attack others who are writing in disagreement to what you said. Instead, why not end the thread(with your silence) and THINK to yourself only, about things.
If so many people are replying to you in the same way, it is worth some thought, no? Isn't part of healing from N having the ability to examine ourselves and grow?
If you feel like attacking me, as you have with others who have tried to reason with you (NOT shut down your voice, just get you to not use it so it hurts others NEEDLESSLY) maybe take that as an inner cue... That you want to lash out yet *again*. Is it because you feel criticised and feel like you need to react at gut level and mount a defense instead of reflecting on any truth that might be there for you to learn from?
Please think about these things, instead of just being ready to POUNCE, to attack... Let go of so much anger that seems everywhere for you(this is not the first post of yours I've read)... It will drain, make you ill, and isolate you.
Best of luck to you.
Hope, I do hope that you get to connect with Engel somehow. IMHO, it would be a loss if you didn't
-
Forgive spelling errors in previous. I gave up part of my lunch hour to type this(how strongly I felt about it) and was rushed.
I'm sure the point is understood fine.
-
Yeah Accapella but sometimes you just need to cut to the chase with statements like "full of crap"....I mean it does kinda sum it all up.
-
Hi this is bunny (herm to some of you),
Engel, I think Hope would love to hear from you so please email her if you can.
Jaded, I sent you an email, maybe you are upset about something and we can help you. You've been through a lot with Brent and something must have triggered you. But I don't think Engel meant anything harmful at all.
Hi to max, rhd, and other people from N-partners.
-
This exchange was between Hope & Engel, and it was really not your business
This exchange is in a public forum.
Hope very wizely let Engle know how to contact her.
"full of crap"....I mean it does kinda sum it all up.
It sums nothing up to me. It is impersonal and void of content other than the very"crap" it supposedly is meant to describe. There is nothing there about feelings for starters.
Well anyway I do not believe Jaded attacked anyone.
But please remember that there is BALANCE
Yes and balance is what we can also use internally especially when reading what someone writes about their feelings. Balance is about feeling out a middle ground and true balance means going to edges...that is how the middle is found.
Now, you may have even ruined Hope's chances of connecting with Engel, and she wantes too!!!
Oh, really. Jaded you control all the air waves now? Girl you are powerful. :wink:
understandable, but
BUT? It is understandable period.
You don't have to comment on every thing that you feel
Well perhaps we should start emailing you in private to find out exactly which feelings we/she should comment on.
Do you see the negative vibe and agruging you have succeeded in causing?
This is familiar sort of talk. Wow. I for one do not feel Jaded caused any negative vibe. Your spin on it is clearly a negative one.
Ask yourself if you get a payoff-- something like feeling powerful where you have felt powerless before in your life, feeling heard where you have felt unheard, etc...
I hope your answer Jaded is Yes, hell yes.
why not end the thread(with your silence) and THINK to yourself only
This on a "voicelessness" site. Well it speaks for itself.[/quote]
-
Since this is a thread to me, let me speak up.
Having a voice is good. Using it properly is essential. Frankly, I don't listen to really negative communications. I tune out the content of the message.
This applies to everyone. I don't care for phrases like "full of crap" I don't find them useful.
You end up voiceless with language such as that.
Please let's stop negativity and name-calling. We can voice differences ina respectful manner.
I am not angry with Jaded or anyone else, but I think we all have work to do.
-
And this is is part of that work for me at least.
-
I just painfully read your post Acappella. I'm really not sure if you and Jaded are the same person, but for sure you have some kind of alliance with her, even if it is just one you have taken on personally for yourself.
It is just completely *FUTILE* to try to reason with a couple of you. By "reason" I certainly don't mean that you have to agree with others. Just try meet them halfway, consider some things being said, instead of being so rigid and defensive. That is something everyone should do, if they'd like to have a cohesive community.
I'd have been willing to speak more about this, even in private(as you suggested), if I thought if would go anywhere, but sadly, I don't. I think it would just be an endless cycle of anger and defense, instead of a two way, respectful, mutual *listening* dialogue. No thanks-- been there done that with xN, and don't plan to do it EVER again.
It's unfortunate that it is that way, but I guess I will have to choose the healthy thing and not waste my time and energy. No more time and energy wasted for me here, either. I'll let the select few of you stew in your own juices. Minus me, and it will just be another member, another issue to rage over, that gets automatically inserted.
I can certainly see where the use of a moderator comes in handy, and why Sandahl has closed the topic of what went on previously, on the other board. This (negativity and over-anger about things) will never end here, because there are people that won't allow it to.
It will play out endlessly, just like unmoderated newsgroups. They have been arguing on there for *YEARS*, and vicsiously many times. You go there at your own risk. If that is the kind of community you wish to build, keep at it.
I'm happily out of here!!! :o Good luck all. I do wish you peace, and healing. Believe it or not, that is truly heartfelt, though I'm sure it will be degraded.
Won't be around to read it though!
-
even in private(as you suggested)
excuse me. i was not clear. I was illustrating a point indirectly when I said perhaps guest should be a filter for what feelings are and are not posted here.
-
Accapella,
Why do you speak so much about "feelings" instead of "facts"?
Admittedly, feelings are important but feelings are emotions and emotions as you know can go the way of the old rollercoaster. Not fun.
Not only are they not factual or reliable in an argument (which is what is going on here) , but they also change from person to person so you cant really argue about someones "feelings"... you cant say it's wrong for someone to "FEEL" that another is "full of crap" when that is their feeling concerning the situation....or is it a fact?! Is it a fact that Jaded was "full of crap" when she was trying to make something wrong out of Engels post? I for one "FEEL" that she was.
-
Hi Hope,
It's Star. I, too, am thinking about your upcoming hearing and how you are doing in general. Also hello to you, Herm.
-
Hi Star:
I have a hearing tomorrow. I could use some positive vibes sent through the air in the morning.
Now, the jerk is making the car payment on our nanny car, which he has. The loan is in my name. I have already been reported for one delinquent payment, and in a few days, there will be another. It never ends.........
It would be great if the judge would have a little change of heart.
-
Hope,
Yes it would be great if the judge not only had a change of heart, but they also opened their eyes while they were at it. But then again it would be even better if he would grow the heck up and put his children's needs before his wicked ways.
I really do not think putting your children first is asking to much of a parent. Do you? It reminds me of that song "Cats in the cradle". Remember Hope, that child did grow up and that DAD did get his paybacks. He got what he gave, which was nothing!!
-
Okay, Hope,
You can count on positive vibes, and a few prayers sent to you tommorrow. It takes a lot of strength to continually be in the quagmire of N chaos, and try to be a good mom, too ( I've been there). I hope you can carve out time soon to relax and somehow detach from these attacks. In December, it will be one year since my divorce. I am far more relaxed and happy, and my N's shenanigans (not backed with high-powered money, though) look more and more foolish and ridiculous to me. The latest with us is that N is crying poor to everyone he knows, yet has plans to take a 2 week vacation with GF (she's a sucker, and probably paying for it all) during the holidays. Meanwhile, he is a total cheapskate with our kids (my daugheter sees right through it), and whines because they don't seem to be close to him. The OW will be leaving her 2 small children over Christmas, again. This is a sick couple.
But back to you, take care, and best wishes for tommorrow. -Star
-
I have been watching this board and the N -Partners board. Jaded, you have communication/anger problems. You are too ready to attack, be crass and or vulgar. Unfortunately for me, you have made this board unsafe and I don't plan on coming back here.
I am also unhappy with what happened on N-partners. Without the rest of you, it just isn't as good as it was. So I now feel I have no place to go. This board is aptly named Voicelessness, it muzzled me.
Hope, I am sending you all the positive vibes I can. I think of you often.
Bye
-
Thanks everyone. Off I go........
-
Hope, thanks for the update. I'm going to keep sending positive thoughts your way...I have a feeling things will turn out as they should, and you and your children will (hopefully) be settled and happy soon.
I, too have a bit of a problem with the back-and-forthing - but not with anyone else. Just some thoughts on my own learning process.
Being voiceless for so long (48 yrs), there's so much pent-up in my head, my heart, and my gut, that sometimes it just BURSTS out and I don't know how to control it. I'm trying to learn to use my voice appropriately, add some "finesse", if that makes sense.
I find that sometimes, especially about things I feel VERY strongly about, or in moments of intense anger/emotion, I revert to communicating in exactly the same way my Ndad communicated...and that's very scary to me. Sometimes I don't even recognize it til after everything's over and done with...and all I can do is apologize and promise to really work on not doing it again.
Sometimes my voice still comes out like a whisper (but at least it comes out). After so many years of all of being denied our true selves, and our true feelings, IMHO (only speaking for myself) it takes some time and practice to figure out how to totally change myself around. Sometimes I screw up, more times than I'd like to admit - and sometimes I feel I have the right to screw up, cause that's how I was raised - it's almost a feeling of revenge :oops:
But, when I screw up, it's usually with the wrong people, the ones who don't deserve it, and who count on me not to be N-ish. The more aware I am of what's coming out of my mouth, and how the recipient perceives it, the more aware I am of when/how I screw up, so maybe there's hope.
I'm not trying to get anything started again, just wanted to explain part of my own process, so if I offend anyone here, I hope they let me know, so I can make amends.
Everyone has a different style, and we are all trying to improve and better ourselves, and the support on this board is wonderful!
Just wanted to say I appreciate everyone here, and I'm thinking of Hope...she deserves so much better, and I hope she gets it soon.
bobbie
-
Bobbie:
I appreciate your positive thoughts on my hearing.
I think your comments on your voice were/are very insightful. My guess is you summed up many of our thoughts, including mine
.
Perhaps the lesson is that we need to cut each other a little more slack. When somebody communicates in a way that it offensive, it could be gently pointed out rather than overt criticism.
We are all here to heal, and to learn. We should all be gentle in our approach.
Thanks for some great insight.
-
Bobbie:
I appreciate your positive thoughts on my hearing.
And I will continue to send them to you - every day! :)
We are all here to heal, and to learn. We should all be gentle in our approach.
Thanks for some great insight.
No special insight - we've all been robbed of so much for so long, and we're all trying so hard to get back what's been taken from us, and all I know is that I haven't learned all the "right" ways to get myself back yet. Everyone's journeys and experiences are different, some are gentle, some are blunt, some are very protective of others because of what they've gone thru.
Of course there will be disagreements, but that's part of what we're here for - to learn to disagree in a civilized manner. I can't speak of anyone else's process, just my own - and I know I can get downright ugly sometimes - not that I mean to, but there are so many things locked in me that are SCREAMING to get out, and I don't always do it in a civilized manner.
Again, I'm not commenting on anyone else's posts here, just my own feelings and reactions. Unfortunately, being a total newbie on the other board, I jumped in with both feet, and hesitate to post there because I think I offended some of the other members. They don't know me, to them I could just be a jerk (which is true, sometimes).
I have this problem with patience - I want things to be fixed NOW, I want your hearing to be all done with a positive outcome, I want to know I haven't harmed my boys for their future lives, I just want to NORMAL, RIGHT NOW!
(Uh-oh - is that magic thinking i hear?) :? :oops:
Take care, Hope - you deserve all the good things in life, and I have a feeling you're strong enough to get them!
bobbie
-
Hey bobbie,
What you said about SCREAMING (still don't know how to quote properly) that's what I meant by haemorrhaging: that's what it feels like sometimes when I want to talk - all I can do is unleash my thoughts and feelings (usually about things in the past) onto other people - horrible! As for wanting to be NORMAL RIGHT NOW - preach on sister! I am so fed up with how long my life has been s**t that I want everything fixed RIGHT NOW! Arggh! :!:
-
Hi, this is Star,
I understand what you guys are saying. We need to give ourself a break sometimes, actually more than sometimes. I sucked wind for so long while walking on eggshells with my xN husband, that I became unaccustomed to being real. We've allowed a gazillion acts of inapproprieteness, meanness, dimmissing, hurtfulness, you name it, from our N's, yet feel bad when we're not perfect. At least I catch myself doing that. So, hey, let's enjoy being human...and fallable.
Hope, How did your hearing go? Have a good Thanksgiving, all of you. My kitchen smells awesome... The emoticon isn't working for me, but I'm smiling.
-
Star:
The hearing went o.k. It is hard to know what she will decide. It is somewhat unusual for a Judge to change their mind, but we showed her an "error of law" and it does happen.
The interesting part was that the Judge asked to speak to the lawyers privately after the hearing. The Judge told the lawyers that she would not be putting my kids in an apartment, and that she thought that this was a case where a substantial deviation from the child support guidelines was in order. She clearly didn't like the N's motion to have me vacate the house by December 31, give him all of the cars, the furniture, art, etc. However, I have learned not to rely on anything until it is in writing. I have been burned too many times. Also, I don't know what she considers substantial. To keep up my kids' "lifestyle" would require huge money. I am too embarrassed to say how much it costs to keep things going around here. But, that is the law. The kids are entitled to the life that they would have had if the marriage had stayed intact, and this is one of those rare situations when it can be done.
I hope everyone had a nice holiday.