Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: A Guest on May 27, 2005, 10:14:15 AM
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Hello Everyone:
I was just wondering if anyone know of any books or resources that deal with the topic of learning how to believe in yourself.
Any recommendations or feedbacks would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks.
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Hiya guest, well, this board is a great resource if you use it. IMO!
I guess my first questions would be:
What do you mean by belief in yourself?
What don't you believe in now, that you want to change?
Do you mean having confidence in your skills and abilities for example?
Or not feeling like you exist as a person and being able to relate to other people?
We might need a bit more info from you before we can say any more, P
PS then I thought, there is a quick way!! It's this: tell other people your truths - your fears, your wants, your 'bad' stuff and find people who you feel safe with. Listen to them tell you their same stuff back. You find we're all vulnerable, we all have fears, we all worry about not being good enough or perfect enough and really important - nobody has all the answers. or if they do, they're not telling us!! :D or maybe it's just me? :? i hope you get my drift.
Take risks and make yourself vulnerable. Be courageous and live through storms. Stick with something and see it through. and of course...welcome, please sit down and chat if you wish. P
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Take risks and make yourself vulnerable. Be courageous and live through storms. Stick with something and see it through. and of course...welcome, please sit down and chat if you wish.
Portia, I agree. There is a saying that "you are only as sick as your secrets". I believe that also has a lot to do with believing in yourself. Oftentimes, believing in yourself can be construed in coming from a place where we have to be perfect or "right" or in knowing all the answers. For me, when I let people know what I consider to be the bad parts of myself for better or worse, I am much more confident in believing in myself. It takes some courage but the alternative of not voicing these things only leaves me stuck where I am. Believing in myself means putting out myself authentically...good and bad and all that stuff in between! The relief I feel in finally being known gives me the freedom to really be myself! Bittles
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Portia,
I appreciate what you wrote towards the bottom of your post. I'm going to write down what you said and remind myself til it sinks in.
Believing in myself is something that's been a struggle for me. What I mean by it is believing in myself enough to know and feel that I have a right to be heard, respected, and admired, even if I'm not getting that from others. Believing in myself enough to not have a need for getting approval from others in order to feel important and valued and okay.
What I come to realized about myself is that my belief system is very mess up. What I really want and look for is a resource that can help me change my belief system one by one. I feel that if I can change my belief system then I can change my life. And can live more fully and able to embrace more fully the opportunities that are given to me on a regular basis...the opportunity to engage in meaningful conversations, the opportunity to fail yet not feel like a failure, the opportunity to expand myself beyond my insecurities, the opportunity to learn from making stupid mistakes instead of shying away from them, the opportunity to not feel inadequate even though I've made an adequate decision, etc.
I know that professional counseling is a great resource, but that is not an option I have at this point in my life.
Thanks for reading.
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well the best resource could be for knowing self
and one's relationship to the whole
is to submit to the creator's will of
considering the needs of others before one's own
and if one does that properly one can discern if at times
what the other needs is rebuke :)
in the present divine dispensation the best route
if one hasnt been already
to be convicted of one's past sinful nature
and repent by way of the first begotten of the dead..jesus..
and accept the holy spirit
which does not speak of self...first
but rather teaches all things by way of
those who accept
considering the needs of others before one's own
and best understoon in the perfect example of
the first begottne of the dead.. jesus
who the flesh of the adamic line
and tested in all ways of the flesh..
remained without sin
and in what he suffered for others sake
thru all those who thus accept and follow
salvation of the soul is granted and one
may after this fleshly existence gain
full access to the glorified soul body:)
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Cosmic Joe,
I appreciate your reply. I am of the belief that you cannot truly love others when you haven't fully loved yourself first. Or I don't think I can completely accept others when I haven't completely accepted myself first.
Thanks.
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Hi there--
I think that Phil McGraw's book Self Matters actually provides a very good framework within which you can conduct a guided self-assessment, with the goal of finding what he calls your "authentic self." It's a little short on how to act on that knowledge, but from your posts, it seems that's not really what you're looking for. Basically, what he does is take each element of self-concept and provide exercises that help you to consider how that element has made you the person you are, and whether the associated beliefs are really serving you.
As with any "self-help" book, you have to take it with cups, not pinches, of salt. Dr. McGraw's tone is sometimes annoying, and his folksy charm often wears thin, but I think there is a certain amount of wisdom at the core of this book. To change one's core beliefs about oneself is possibly the most difficult task one can undertake. I think anything that puts a structure around that process can be at least somewhat helpful.
Best,
daylily
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Daylily,
Thanks for the book recommendation. I've read the book that you were talking about and know a little about him. I don't find his book or the way he approaches things to be that helpful to me.
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Welcome! I think you are on the right track! I found that my fundamental belief system (what I believed about life, myself) was indeed at the heart of every single choice I made. Sounds like a "duh, of course" but for me it was huge. I was trying to change all these other things, but nothing changed because my essential belief system wouldn't support the change.
As soon as I recognized that was the issue....it set in motion a sequence of events that were very positive, in terms of my self awareness and growth and happiness.
Suddenly, all the books and tapes and information NOW MADE SENSE to me!!!
Among those: (you asked for resources):
ANY writings by Pema Chodron (Start Where You Are, When Things Fall Apart, and I have a lot of her tapes) (She is AMAZING....gets straight to the core of self concept and self compassion.....VERY helpful, an American Buddhist, really down to earth and funny but not preachy)
The Art of Happiness by the Dali Lama (writtten with an American Dr....big, overview topics, with advice for specific modern issues)
Fearless Living by Rhonda Britten (good ideas, but some "workbooky" stuff I don't care for)
The Dance of Anger by Harriet Lerner (ooh, I learned a lot about past patterns)
Different Drum, People of the Lie by M. Scott Peck (second one is about evil.....and narcissism)
Out of the Darkness and Into the Light, Teach Only Love by Gerald
Jampolski (a bit wordy)
The Power of Now by Ekhart Tolle (get the companion littler version....its not so overwhelming)
The Secret of the Shadow by Debbie Ford ( very encouraging, all about self acceptance)
The Art of Possibility by Rosamund Stone Zander and Benjamin Zander (a little academic, but great little gems throughout)
There's a Spiritual Solution to Every Problem by Wayne Dyer (very spiritual, yet not preachy)
and a million other places, things, readings, sayings, therapists, friends and PEOPLE ON THIS BOARD who have helped me to rebuild my core belief system into one that is in keeping with my own individual purpose!
The point is this: until I KNEW that change was possible, all the above resources fell on deaf ears.....when I woke up.....THAT'S when it all made sense!!!!!
A little bit here, a little bit there.....take what works and make it part of your true, undamaged, original loving self....and miracles happen!!!
Have FUN!!!!
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a quote of guest maker of this topic ...
I appreciate your reply. I am of the belief that you cannot truly love others when you haven't fully loved yourself first. Or I don't think I can completely accept others when I haven't completely accepted myself first.
..well yes but in that process of completely loving yourself first...
there can be dangers of getting caught up in twisted
positive loving self where one starts to lose growth
cause it becomes an artificial excuse for neglecting others...
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hey, Cosmic Joe (great name!)
Good points you made!
If the original poster asked about loving oneself instead of believing in oneself, would that be different?
But on the subject of self love:
TRUE love for oneself, is divine love and is inescapably pure and loving toward ALL in the universe.....otherwise, it is NOT love, but a deformity, an actual evil.
A huge struggle for most of the people I know, is not that they will "love themselves too much" but that they love themselves too little..........and then are victimized by those people you may speak of, who twist inner self loathing into what LOOKS LIKE self love. But it is not. It is self hatred of the most malignant kind....EGO love....illusionary, earthly and not of divine source at all!!
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Mum wrote:
I found that my fundamental belief system (what I believed about life, myself) was indeed at the heart of every single choice I made. Sounds like a "duh, of course" but for me it was huge. I was trying to change all these other things, but nothing changed because my essential belief system wouldn't support the change.
As soon as I recognized that was the issue....it set in motion a sequence of events that were very positive, in terms of my self awareness and growth and happiness.
Mum, that's exactly how I feel about it and how if affects every fiber of my being. How did you progress from point A to point B and onward? What did you do to expand yourself, to grow emotionally, etc? And what were the sequence of events that were very positive, in terms of your self-awarness and growth and happiness?? I'm sorry for all these questions, I hope you don't mind sharing them with me.
Thanks for the recommendations of resources. They sound very useful. Surely, I will look into them.
Thanks again.
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but it fluctuates still.
Can't wait for that golden day when things can be absolutely crap and just I'll take a deep breath and think 'oh well...tomorrow's another day'
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clicked too soon, meant to add, go easy on youself, it's a process, takes time to change attitudes/ perception/ behaviour etc.
This is a great resource.
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A guest,
I think it has to do with wanting to change what's truly your core belief system. The changes have to come from the inside, or be made on the inside, otherwise as mum said all the best advice in the world will fall on deaf ears. there are things you can change on the outside, and good habits you can teach yourself, and I think if you want to change hard enough and you are willing to work hard enough it can happen. It takes a lot of hard work, a lot of mistakes, a lot of false turns and alleys but if your heart is in it for the right reasons even the mistakes will mean progress. It's a long road, but every journey begins with a single step.
2cents
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These books changed my life because I suddenly "got it" from reading them. Don't know if they would speak to everyone but here they are:
Handbook to Higher Consciousness by Ken Keyes. This book is very "60s" in its language but if you get past it, it explains how to deal with life, other people, your own reactions. I had so much more control over situations after learning this stuff.
Reflections in the Light by Shakti Gawain. A book of affirmations that somehow explained to me how people operated. Again, gave me a lot more control over how I handled situations.
Personal Power Through Awareness by Sanaya Roman. This has a really ludicrous gimmick of being written by a chanelled spirit. If you can ignore that premise (I did), the book has amazing insights into how we react to others and how to change the reactions. I had even more control over situations after reading it.
by "control over situations" I do not mean narcissistically manipulating them. I mean the feelings of helplessness and confusion diminished by magnitudes and I knew what was going on. From that place of awareness I could avoid being abused, sidestep a lot of crap, and command some authority and respect instead of merely hoping to get it and being disappointed.
bnny
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Hi All,
This is an interesting thread. Self-belief is something that I've always had a problem with, and Bunny, I'm going to follow up your book recommendations.
Strangely enough, and despite the kick in the teeth I still feel from his rejection, I do think that my self-belief has slowly grown since the split from my ex. Living without him was something that I never thought would be possible for me;my addiction to the r/ship was so overwhelming, but here I am, on my own and still breathing!
Anyway, what I really wanted to do here was recount a little incident that happened at my place of work recently. I often have to attend meetings, and since splitting from my ex, and trying to develop more self-respect, I've tried to conduct myself at work in a self-confident way, and to show authority when necessary. I've found this makes professional r/ships run more smoothly;people have even commented that they know where they stand with me, and they seem to like this! But at a recent meeting my old habit of running myself down got the better of me, and I made a jokey comment against myself, coupled with a shaky sort of laugh. It was so interesting to see how UNcomfortable this made the other people at the meeting. Being quite decent people, they laughed and assured me that they thought highly of me, but they were obviously made uneasy by my lack of confidence and my moment of neediness.
So what I'm saying is that it seems to me, unfair as it might be, that people feel a lot more comfortable when in the company of someone who has self-belief, or at least appears to. Maybe it's because they don't feel called on to 'look after' the person, or massage their ego. So an increased self-belief can be good for us in itself, but also make our r/ships easier and healthier. (Plus the fact of course that the emotional vampires we have all engaged with, seem to spot our insecurity a mile away, and target us for their attention.)
Sincerely,
Lara.
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So what I'm saying is that it seems to me, unfair as it might be, that people feel a lot more comfortable when in the company of someone who has self-belief, or at least appears to. Maybe it's because they don't feel called on to 'look after' the person, or massage their ego. So an increased self-belief can be good for us in itself, but also make our r/ships easier and healthier. (Plus the fact of course that the emotional vampires we have all engaged with, seem to spot our insecurity a mile away, and target us for their attention.)
Good observation. Don't you feel safer, more relaxed around people who are self-confident? :) They don't require stroking, reassuring, catering to, mind-reading, etcetera. What a relief, right?
Here's a situation that happened at my workplace. At a meeting, someone was given a prize because her group had achieved some goal. She dramatically protested: "Oh no! Don't give it to me! We only reached the goal by accident! We weren't even trying! Take it back, oh, oh, oh!" As you can imagine, people were annoyed by her display which was more time consuming than simply saying "thank you", and accepting the damn prize. One woman noted for her peacefulness actually said, "Just take it!" The prizewinner clearly wanted stroking, reassurance, by being humbly unworthy. At some point, it's just irritating and she didn't achieve her wish of being taken care of. So I think when one is aware of being at a fork in the road, where one could either self-deprecate or be confident, experiment with the confident route and see how it goes.
bunny
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people feel a lot more comfortable when in the company of someone who has self-belief, or at least appears to. Maybe it's because they don't feel called on to 'look after' the person, or massage their ego. So an increased self-belief can be good for us in itself, but also make our r/ships easier and healthier. (Plus the fact of course that the emotional vampires we have all engaged with, seem to spot our insecurity a mile away, and target us for their attention.)
& I just remembered a quote someone wrote in a card for me years ago:
People take you very much at your own reckoning...
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Yes, and I also think there is a cycle in operation in this sort of situation, at work, for example:
1. I appear to be confident. (And I think that at first, even faking confidence is worthwhile.)
2. Because I appear confident, people feel I am knowledgeable and they take me seriously.
3. Because they take me seriously, they approach me for information, ask me for help, etc.
4. Because people approach me, ask me for help, etc. I feel valued, and confident.....
(And so the cycle goes on.....)
Sincerely,
Lara.
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fake it, 'til you make it!' ?
That should be easy for all of us who feel we're imposters in life....
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Lara,
I think I understand what you mean by "appearing confident". But for me, it is the hardest thing to appear confident when it goes against my core self belief. It's like trying to swim against the tide. The tide is my core beliefs, the swim is my unsuccessful attempt to appear confident. I wish I can "fake it" 'til I make it. Isn't it true that our core beliefs dictate our thoughts, words, and deeds?
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I think I understand what you mean by "appearing confident". But for me, it is the hardest thing to appear confident when it goes against my core self belief. It's like trying to swim against the tide. The tide is my core beliefs, the swim is my unsuccessful attempt to appear confident. I wish I can "fake it" 'til I make it. Isn't it true that our core beliefs dictate our thoughts, words, and deeds?
I think self-devaluing beliefs (if they are distorted, some kind of old tape, etc.) can absolutely be changed. Mine have.
bunny
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Hello, A Guest. You asked me what moved me from point A to point B, etc. (haven't figured out the quote thing). I guess an enormous struggle, which got me to an enormous depression, and then a giant cattle prod from my children to be better.
Simplified, yes....but basically that's it. But it started with the same kind of questioning you are doing. I wanted better for a life. Someone from my past ignited an earlier, happier memory of myself in me, and I had an inkling I deserved better. Then as I started my search to get happier, healthier....well, things got worse before they got better. Mostly because the toxic people in my life wanted me to stay the same....I had served thier needs well, I guess.
I tell you this NOT to encourage you to stop the process. Keep it going. It will probably not be easy, but staying stuck was no longer an option for me. I was compelled to find my purpose, and I knew it wasn't to stay in unhappy situations with damaged, toxic people. It was to be happy and to show my children how to be happy in the process. It took bravery I didn't know I had....but we all have such power, and we rarely touch it.
So it lead me on a search and set in motion a sequence of events that were overwhelmingly beautiful sometimes and overwhelmingly painful, too. What I came to understand was this thing about pain. I was always afraid of it, so that is what kept me stuck in a low level of it, not thinking I could ever escape (that lack of faith, of believing in oneself)....knowing to explore the pain would mean really scary stuff....stuff in my head (scariest of them all) as well as stuff legally, life wise, etc.
Okay, so this is where the giant leap of faith comes in. I feel like a Nike ad: but I just did it. I just got fed up with a dully unfulfilling, "on the surface it looks good" life.
But I can honestly tell you, I would NEVER have found a shred of the happiness I have now, inside (as that's where happiness IS) had I not done this.
Pain is NOT a horrible thing...it teaches us things about ourselves. Pain is not meant to be habitual. Pain as a lifestyle is no life at all. My ex N is in extreme pain, that's why he is angry, mean and drinks. He will probably never look at what his pain has to tell him. Much too hard. I think he is a coward because of this....a real failure of a human, in that he has the same opportunity we all have to find things out, to awaken, but he most likely will not be able to. So sad....but I must move on and continue to protect my children from that as a lifestyle.
Anyway, FEAR was the other thing I had to face down....as it kept me avoiding looking at the pain. The thing about fear is that it is the opposite of love. I had a lot of love to help me. I was the one, though, that decided to love myself, and then sought out opportunities to find support for it. Some things just landed on my lap in the process! Amazing what happens if you open up....to love, to pain, to everything.
And that led me to FAITH which is your original question. This all led me to believe in myself, in God/universe/divine love/others etc etc. So I guess I would say, start the process (you have). Open up, look at your pain. Explore it. Don't be afraid. Go ahead and cry, vent, find a therapist, trust someone else, make mistakes, cry some more, but KNOW the answers will come. Don't push it....let it happen. ALLOW.
So it starts with faith and belief and it ends there too.
Sorry for the ramble....I hope you find your way. I think you will.
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Mum,
Thank you so much for sharing with me your journey of personal growth Your rambling was definitely helpful to me :) I always appreciate hearing other ppl's personal accounts and insights into what I am working on myself.
I find myself agreeing with what you said about the advantage pain can play in our lives to help us understand ourselves better and which we can either to accept or deny it.
I like to know what others think about this thought: is it possible to truly have faith in anything, if you don't have faith in yourself first? For example, can you truly have faith in humanity if you don't already have faith in yourself? Isn't this where fear or anxiety comes into play? Could it be that ppl who fear are ppl who don't have faith in themselves?
By the way, Mum, I'm looking forward to start reading "The Dance of Anger" that you've suggested. From reading the excerpts of the book it is something I can relate to.
Also, thanks Bunny for your book recommendations. I find them fascinating as well. But I'm still hung over with the spiritual overtone of them though. :roll:
Fellow Traveler
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I like to know what others think about this thought: is it possible to truly have faith in anything, if you don't have faith in yourself first? For example, can you truly have faith in humanity if you don't already have faith in yourself? Isn't this where fear or anxiety comes into play? Could it be that ppl who fear are ppl who don't have faith in themselves?
You don't need to begin with faith in yourself. That's the end result. What is needed is a foundation of values, morals, ethics, standards, boundaries, and skills to deal with life. In addition, knowing what you like and don't like (i.e., having an identity). When we've learned and developed these things, confidence comes, and with confidence is the ability to handle stuff better; it creates a positive feedback loop.
bunny
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Dear A Guest:
Another thing might be to take account of your accomplishments. This is because of the theory that people feel good about themselves when they accomplish things. With each accomplishment comes a little more self esteem.
These don't have to be big accomplishments and often, we do not give ourselves credit for those little things we have done or are doing right, or even consider that we might do.
What if you make a list of some of the things you've been able to do and maybe some you would like to do? As you set small goals and reach them, remember to acknowledge these successes to yourself. This is not to say you are what you do, just that in doing stuff you can say I've done this or that, and allow yourself to feel a sense of accomplishment each time. You may find this difficult if you have a belief that ignors or deminishes these small successes and you may find that to be one belief that needs to be adjusted. By doing and succeeding and taking account, that adjustment will slowly happen.
Best of luck to you.
GFN
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Isn't it true that our core beliefs dictate our thoughts, words, and deeds?
I don't think so. I believe everybody carries around a few "sets" of beliefs, and that, given the circumstances, one set or another dictates what you do at a given moment. Yes, some beliefs about ourselves were "programmed" into us. But others are learned experientially. A child comes to believe she can sing because it occurs to her to sing, she does, and people respond positively. The more she repeats the experience, the more she reinforces the belief that singing is something she's good at. And it really doesn't matter too much whether she has a parent or some other important person standing in the background hissing, "You fool. Of course you can't really sing." In her heart, she knows that person is just wrong, and her life will never be fulfilled until she finds a way to live her core belief, proven by her experience, that she singing is what she was put here to do. She also knows that someone important to her will lie to her, and that causes a lot of pain.
I think that it is because you know these "core beliefs" are wrong that you feel tension, depression, disappointment--that you're willing to keep striving for something better. If you simply accepted the beliefs, you would live them without question. And because your spirit rebels against them, I can't really accept that they are you "core" beliefs. I'm not trying to question your honesty; I'm just saying that in my own life, I have had to face this truth: "If I really believed what the most negative people in my life tell me, I would just accept my inferiority and live in service to my betters. But I don't accept it, so I have to face the possibility that I am using others' negativity and criticism as a screen to hide behind, so I don't have to confront my own fear of failure."
I used to be absolutely certain that effort had to be grounded in a sense of possibility. Now I'm not so sure. It may be that joy is more fertile soil. I find that when I do what I love to do, what feels effortless and natural, I don't count the cost or dread the consequences. I have a long way to go before I can say I'm "living" that truth, but I do believe that I will miss a lot of satisfaction if I pin my sense of accomplishment on results rather then process.
I agree completely with what Mum said: the key is overcoming fear--of failure, of ridicule, of proving your most deeply-held ideas about who you are to be wrong. But your "core beliefs" must transcend that fear--in short, you have to believe is that you have value even if your worst fears come true.
Do I know how you learn that? No. I am very much in the process of doing it, and I feel like a complete failure most days. But as I read this thread, I find that I am wondering--much more for myself than for you--whether the journey doesn't begin with faith rather than with certainty. Not faith in my abilities, but faith in my value, regardless of my abilities. And I wonder if you would even be asking the questions you've asked if that faith wasn't already integral to your core beliefs.
I hope you don't take this as a challenge or criticism. I am very much where you are, and I'm trying to share some insights I've had. But I understand that everyone views these issues differently, and my intention is certainly not to offend.
Wishing you peace,
daylily
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Wow, Daylily! That was beautiful...and so well put. What wonderful thinking....you got me thinking, too. It's a little bit like going down even further into ourselves....the "core" of the core, if you will. That we must somehow have a tiny seed of faith that says: "of course this isn't what you are!" ....and perhaps that is where all of it begins...
Thank you for such well placed thoughts.
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Daylily,
I always love reading your posts. You have such a beautiful way with words.
I find that when I do what I love to do, what feels effortless and natural, I don't count the cost or dread the consequences.
I spent the first third of my life searching for something to be good at. Being raised without any support of love of my parents and the constant criticism of my father, the negative tapes were always running and keeping me from believing in myself.
Until I became a mom. It was then that passion took over, I was able to bypass the negative tapes and I had the desire to be the best mom I could be. That these little beings are totally defenseless and dependant upon us to care and provide for them certainly enters into it, but even as they got older and more independent, I kept striving to be there for them no matter what. Even when my mother tried to discount my value as a mother and criticize my children and how I raised them, I could stand up to that, knowing that she was WRONG.
I feel badly for someone who never finds that passion in their life that will make them feel successful and fulfilled. Feeling accomplished at something is what gives us the faith to believe in ourselves. It probably is what will also allow for adjustments to the core belief system that may be keeping us stuck in a negative and sad place.
Brigid
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Daylily, your insights made a lot of sense to me. I'm still thinking about them as I write this post. The thought of a challenge or criticism didn't cross my mind til you mentioned it. Your words were neither of them, but rather very helpful to me. Thanks. Besides, I could always use new insights to challenge my way of thinking about certain things. :) Have you ever thought of writing a column for Ladies Home Journal or something of that sort in a question and answer format? I think you would be very good at that and a lot of readers would benefit from your insights and warm way of using words. I think you have a special way of touching ppl's hearts with your words. Anyway, that was just a thought I had :roll:
I have another situation. Ever since I can remember, I've struggle with being unassertive and losing self-confidence when I'm around people...as if I de-value myself and over-value the other person/people. Just like sitting on a seesaw. I mentally put myself on the lower end and the other person on the higher end. For a long time, I use to think it's because I have social anxiety. Now, I feel that condition is not the cause of feeling inferior around ppl. I now realized that all along I've been putting people I come in contact with on a pedestal, either consciously or subconsciously. Before I didn't realize that I was doing it. Then I wonder why I always feel so tense and uneasy and de-self myself when I'm around ppl. In the meantime, I lose my ability to process and generate thoughts and ideas in the company of ppl I'm with. It's as if my ship of self is steadily sinking. It could be a complete stranger and I still feel this way. I tend to perceive the other person to be better than me, smarter than me, communicate better than me, etc. They can do no wrong. I, on the other hand, am the lowly one. I'm the one who says the wrong things, have the wrong ideas, etc. And I end up doing a lot of apologizing. When I put ppl on a pedestal, it's as if I go on a mental mode of subconsciously believing that person does not think, say, or do anything wrong. Only when that person does something really dispictable do I suddenly realize he/she is only human, and then I no longer put that person on a pedestal. I notice that when I don't put a particular person on a pedestal I am quite resolute and confident and at ease with myself. I wonder if others have ever dealt with this problem before.
Since, I am now aware that I have a subconscious habit of putting ppl on a pedestal and myself in a precarious low level, I'm trying to change this unproductive habit. Does anyone ever have this problem? If so, how did you change your way of perceiving ppl and of yourself?
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I have the same exact problem with my living situation and the landlords.
They're gone for another 3 weeks - but now they're calling in a checking in on everything I'm doing. For the past 12 years I've taken care of their home. . . but yet, things are weird. Maybe familiarity breeds contempt.
Like others - I have elevated them and their needs above mine. And now, I am frustrated they don't see how inconsiderate they are - especially to a friend, tenant and housesitter. And yet, I haven't opened my mouth.
This weekend, a situation happened - my 9 year old niece opened the door and 2 dogs got out. The conclusion that was jumped to was that I was not on the property, and the dogs jumped over the deck. How dare I not be there watching the dogs. How dare I not be there to answer the phone - or cell phone (yet we were outside scouring the hills for the dogs). The dogs were found and returned.
So instead of taking their phone calls after they knew the dogs were okay, I'm doing the passive agreesive thing and letting them deal with my answering machine. (Talk about not using your voice!!).
I have already taken things into my own hands and have started packing to move out. They will be back on June 18th - and I will move out July 30th.
But, I have some choices to make: Just give my notice (and lie why I'm doing it). Give my notice, and tell a partial truth. Or give my notice and tell them the entire truth.
They will lose a friend, tenant and a 12 year housesitter.
Perhaps it's harder to confront someone you know as a friend, then confront someone who isn't exactly a friend - but a paid landlord.
I don't know.
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oops missed a bit
in my last post here in a way..
as i was mainly on knowing self
and did not connect expressly
how that might relate to believing in self..
well now the self needs to know its self
and relationship to the whole
i think
in order to best be able to believe in self
and to know this relationship fully requires
a dynamic expression of what the vital
relationship of self to the whole is...
as suggested by
the purpose of the soul is to know itself
as an eternal individual spiritual entity
able to be fully attuned to the whole but not the
whole but rather a part of the whole
now the attunement methinks
would come by a proper considering of
the needs of others before one's own
and while it is good to love one self
if some of the many and clever devices
most selves have developed for
an artificial rationalized self justification
are too actie then the process of
loving one self could be an excuse
for neglecting one's responsibilities to others
and one could end up
less enabled rather than more enabled
in terms of knowing the true self and
how to believe in it....
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I have already taken things into my own hands and have started packing to move out. They will be back on June 18th - and I will move out July 30th.
Good idea.
But, I have some choices to make: Just give my notice (and lie why I'm doing it). Give my notice, and tell a partial truth. Or give my notice and tell them the entire truth.
Reasons I can imagine to lie: expedient, you just want to get out with no trouble, their behavior is no longer your problem, you don't want to get into it with them, they might retaliate.
Reasons I can imagine to tell truth: You need to let them know that you're upset, you hope they will talk you out of it, you hope they will apologize, you feel compelled to tell them they have a problem.
What I would do: most likely, give some vague reason for moving and not get into it with them.
bunny
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suspicions that dr phil is a narcissist..that is not to say.
that he cant often be quite helpful to others...
a reading of a bio on dr phil
might help evaluate
ifn dr phil and still might be
a
plays that music for that JAWS
.. A NARCISSIST :)
AH WHY I MENTION DR PHIL
TIS AS PASTED BELOW
daylily as guest
Guest
Posted: Fri May 27, 2005 2:04 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi there--
I think that Phil McGraw's book Self Matters actually provides a very good framework within which you can conduct a guided self-assessment, with the goal of finding what he calls your "authentic self." It's a little short on how to act on that knowledge, but from your posts, it seems that's not really what you're looking for. Basically, what he does is take each element of self-concept and provide exercises that help you to consider how that element has made you the person you are, and whether the associated beliefs are really serving you.
As with any "self-help" book, you have to take it with cups, not pinches, of salt. Dr. McGraw's tone is sometimes annoying, and his folksy charm often wears thin, but I think there is a certain amount of wisdom at the core of this book. To change one's core beliefs about oneself is possibly the most difficult task one can undertake. I think anything that puts a structure around that process can be at least somewhat helpful.
Best,
daylily
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Hi there,
I don't know if this is good advice for you but I have found myself in lots of similar situations and I find that either you take some steps to resolve it and speak up, or you run from it and it lives on in your memory as a bad thing where you were disrespected, once again.
I would argue that unless you talk to your landlords about what they did that bothered you, you are putting them on a pedestal (a someone who always knows what they're doing, and intended every consequence of their actions because they could perfectly foresee the results, and the result is what they wanted, etc).
If you leave the way you are planning, you will always be angry about it and it will become another bone to chew for a long time. Try to start out giving them the benefit of the doubt. What I mean is, a person's home is a very emotional thing. So they are overreacting and irrational about an imagined risk. That is kind of normal, although tiresome. They have not valued or respected you. That is not ok and you need to call it to their attention.
Maybe you can say you want to talk to them about what happened. Try to do it when you are calm. Think through what you are going to say and keep it "I" words. "I felt from your reaction that you did not trust me" or "I was offended when you said such and such", "it bothered me when X happened". Show them how they were wrong. See how they react. Then you can decide what to do. Or you can decide already, but leave it that you made your viewpoint clear and if they want to be jerks, let them.
If you have been friends so long, it is for a reason, and if you break that up, they might not be the only loser. So don't move out to punish them. If your friendship has been one sided, it might be best to leave it. But if not, and this is just one (or a few) incident, maybe it is worth trying to resolve it. Human nature is that people get away with what they can, even good people. So set your boundaries.
ok! Rant over!
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All very sound advice! The risk was that the husky dogs would kill chickens, and then the property owners would have every right to shoot the dogs.
I just got another note from the landlords telling me what I should have done, and - in so many words - how unhappy they were without me being there to answer the phone (while I was out searching the fields).
I did write back and tell them I was stressing over watching their property, horses, etc. I think the seed has been planted, and maybe the notice to move out won't be quite a shock.
Sigh - - - too much drama! I'm looking forward to the peace of packing - and watching some familiar TV shows. Back to some sense of normality!
Cat-guesting
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Hi Cat:
Speaking of notes, maybe you could write your own?
Say your peace. Do all the "I" stuff. Nevermind the reaction?
Explain you don't want to deal with it, if you really want to be honest?
Then move on to that sense of normality knowing you did not shrink and shuffle away with your head down?
After all, they don't seem to have a problem communicating with notes do they?
:D :D
GFN
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Believing in myself: As I was in my apartment packing - it occurred to me - just the name of the board "voicelessness" is so apt here. If I had felt okay voicing concerns before letting them pile up - afraid that by speaking up something terrible would happen, they might not be so tremendous now to overcome.
Believing that I was worth it - having certain rights and priviledges (or setting down some ground rules) may have helped.
But instead, I believed, although I live here and pay rent, I'm still acted like I'm a guest in the house/
There is the believing in yourself enough to speak up - yet being constructive - or the entire voicelessness path. Changing oneself to "speaking up" is a difficult thing to do. Never really quite know what the consequences are going to be.
Cat guesting
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Hi, Cat guesting. I can think of a million of those situations you describe, where I am in a position of servitude in a way, and am being taken advantage of, but I can't seem to speak up or get out of it...
I remember when I was a college art student and a distant aquantance of my mom's asked me to illustrate a book she wanted to write. I agreed to do a few pages...and she dropped off at my house a pile of kids oriented factoids from a syndicated newspaper collumn. This is what she was "writing" her book from. I did one illustration, and then, out of curiosity, tracked down the writer of the collumn. He had no idea who she was and she had no permission to use his research, etc.
I simply left the one illustration I did with all her clippings on my front porch and left a note that meekly suggested she had copywrite infrigement issues but mainly said I was far too busy to help her at this time and then left a message for her to pick her stuff up.
I felt like I had done the right thing, but not completely. I should have given the guy her name (I didn't) and faced her down directly. She was very angry, as I knew she would be....so I guess that's why I avoided it all. The woman badmouthed me and my mother around town, but luckily, mom didn't care and most people thought this bat was batty anyway.
I don't know why your story brought that memory up for me, but I felt like a coward.
There is something I don't quite get about your situation: you are taking care of animals AND you pay rent? You are in an awkward situation.
Where I live, we pay people to take care of our houses and animals while they live in our houses. If it is a college student who wants to get out of his parent's house or something, they will do it for free....well not really, as I still pay the utilities while they stay at myhome. But they take care of my dogs and my plants.....so I should!
-
Someone told me this today:
"Self esteem without empathy is just narcissism."
-
Hi Mum:
Interesting quote. I don't think I agree. Maybe it's more like:
Living without empathy is N.
I think this because I don't really believe it's self-esteem the person behaving Nish feels. That's what they seem so desperate to try to make others believe....that they have great self-esteem but deep down inside....I really think they have something more like self-hate. So I guess the quote could also read:
Self-loathing and no empathy is N.
It's tricky anyway, isn't it? How much self-esteem is healthy? How do we know we have enough? I wouldn't like to see a person who has been working on their self-esteem, trying to improve thier own vision and belief of themself, see and read this quote and think that it is somehow wrong to be trying to increase their own self-esteem....that it might be Nish.
Self-esteem is something inside us, anyway, isn't it? Bragging and flaunting stuff and trying to "look" good, or better than others.....acting superior.....now that isn't self-esteem but it might fit in that quote too.
Acting superior to others without empathy is N.
They may act so but I truly do not think they believe so. Underneath it all there is terror and at the very least....huge self-doubt verging, if not entrenched in, vile feelings about self.
My blabby 2 cents this morning.
Thanks for posting and getting me to think about this one Mum. Hope things are going well for you these days!!!
GFN
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Cat guesting - mum, Thanks for sharing your story. It helps. Doing the right thing - versus saying the right thing is tough.
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mum,
For what it's worth, I think you did the right thing and had no obligation to do one iota more than that. I certainly don't think you needed to face that lunatic down. Pointless. You were dragged into this and had every right to extricate yourself with as little involvement as possible.
bunny
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Well, I did it. The landlord - owners - called to tell me I should have done something one way. Then they sent me an email stating they would have appreciated it if I had done it the way they suggested.
I wrote back apologizing - and stating I could no longer handle the stress of watching their animals. Felt the responsibility on my shoulders was too great with room for liability, and I was thinking of moving out August 1st.
The email back stated they'd like me to move out July 15th, as it would work better for them. They'd like to get someone in as soon as possible. They were sorry that I was not emotionally healthy!
The sucky part about emails like this is that you tend to think "Am I really like that? - and then having to do self-evaluations - and having doubts".
So I've found a place to move - but guess who has to give the payment history references? Yep - the people I'm moving away from.
At this point, I'm very thankful for some of my friends - the friends who've allowed me to disagree with them. Those who've allowed me to have fights with them - that were not devastating. Without those people in my life, I would go back into the hole of being pounded upon and stomped upon.
So right now is the most stressful time. The application is put in. Now comes the references and checks. Of course, I will make it through this, but the stress level is through the roof.
Cat-guesting
-
Oh, man, Cat! This is the stuff that makes sensitive people just sooooo uncomfortable. I am so sorry. Can you focus on: that you are getting OUT of that rotten situation, getting away from those people, having a better living situation, etc etc etc. I would bet the only complaint these people would have is animal care related, and maybe this new situation doesn't involve that? Think of the good things.....how strong you are, how you are no longer taking low man status, no matter what the looneys say, etc. I know it's tough, believe me, when you are being attacked to stay positive and focused and strong. Post here. I think you are doing so well. Stick with it, sister.
Sending you peace and power and good thoughts. Let us know how things go. Stay focused on what you want, not what you don't.
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<I wrote back apologizing - and stating I could no longer handle the stress of watching their animals. Felt the responsibility on my shoulders was too great with room for liability, and I was thinking of moving out August 1st.
The email back stated they'd like me to move out July 15th, as it would work better for them. They'd like to get someone in as soon as possible. They were sorry that I was not emotionally healthy! >
Yes....there are jerks all over the place! They took your (unfounded) apology and rammed it down your throat, along with the (unnecessary) reason/taking blame that you were stressed out. That was so rude! And so uncalled-for.
Take solace that there is no way that you could stay with these people, and they are just showing what they are made of. And try to absorb this lesson, that I have been taught over and over; do not give them the ammunition to slay you with.
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Oh Cat!
That was so mean of them! That bites! I'm sorry this happened.
I'm with mum in that Yay! for two less weeks of the stress, of their silly emails, of the work of caring for their animals, of trying to communicate with people who haven't got a clue!
Here's to a new, more comfortable place to live, a life away from these selfish, uncaring, totally self-centred bunch! Here's to peace for you!!
GFN
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So I've found a place to move - but guess who has to give the payment history references? Yep - the people I'm moving away from.
Don't worry about that. They cannot give out false information - if so you would have grounds to sue them.
-
You were right! They could only give good references, and I was approved. It's been a little less than a week now since I was approved.
Today I received an email from the landlords telling me I could continue renting and still stay at their place without caring for the animals. I knew that it might take a bit of time to realize what they had lost, but a week is not a long time!
Anyway, I will be moving, as requested, before the 15th. The landlords are still out of town - so packing and cleaning will continue unhampered!
cat guesting
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Great news, cat.
They'll be sorry they lost you.
Too bad the feeling won't be mutual. :twisted: :wink:
mud
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Thinking of you today Cat
And wishing you happiness and peace in your new abode!
GFN
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I was just wondering if anyone know of any books or resources that deal with the topic of learning how to believe in yourself.
I've been grappling with a closely related issue, that of 'autonomy', and one book I just found that includes exercises on how to build one's automony (read: self-confidence, agency, belief-in-oneself) is:
The Real 13th Step, by Tina Tessina
As the title implies the book is oriented at people in the 12-step recovery programs, which the author sees tremendous value in for purposes of stopping destructive habits, but having the danger of replacing one addiction with another dependency, this time upon group-think, rather than one's own inner resources. The author believes that the source of most/all addictions is the failure at a very early age (due to parenting) to develop natural skills for automony...the supported explorations from ages 3-8, where a child nervously ventures away (physically or emotionally) from the protective parent, and can run back to them for appropriate advice/comfort, to help deal with failture, uncertainty, until such time these inner resources are developed within the older child, young adult.
I'm generally familiar with the 12-step approach but never immersed in it, so the first couple of chapters weren't of direct interest, but when it shifts to the core questions of whether/how/why someone is autonomous (or not), the bells went off in recognition of the profound self-doubt I've been struggling with, both throughout my life, but even more so when I've realized the extent to which my birth-family has been warped by N-mother, and continues to be. And not surprising, when many of our stories on this BBS relate the classic N patterns of being treated as an object/ends to the affected parent...that one core value children of N-parents learn is to be a 'family asset' (sort of property with obligation to the family, versus one's own right of self-assertion).
In my therapy, I was told that I may be in the midst of a much delayed (like 30+ years) of developing this autonomy. That I can/should/will have the confidence to go forth, set achieve personal goals, etc, in a way that has been inhibited, until very recently as I've been confronting the realities of a N-mother. But in that process, there is a huge amount of self-doubt, fear and anxiety (imagine the terror of the lost 3 year-old in a crowded party, when can't find way back to parent after venturing out...mapped onto a middle-aged guy...ain't pretty).
There are many exercises in this book that seem promising, I've not tried them yet, but even if you don't, I suspect just a quick skim of this book might be helpful.
And the good news...I think...that I hope to convey to you, and anyone else on this BBS who suffers from self-doubt, etc...is that faced with the circumstances we have been with NPD, simply the act of breaking out of that trap (in one form or another, even if just initial recognition of the problem) appears to be a solid example of autonomy (based on this books framework), and should make each of us proud of ourselves to have merely made the attempt, and in many cases, profound and important changes in our lives, in spite of the pain of the process. The contrast/alternative is the life-of-quiet-desperation, that itself fosters all kinds of self-abuse, or propogation of this awful N-thing to another generation. Just reading this book and reflecting on the tone/nature of nearly all the posts I've read on this BBS, seems this is a very solid way-station for folks who have already put some miles behind them on the road to autonomy.
BG
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BG: thank you for this resource. I will look into it. Your description of your journey sounds all too familiar....the finding of voice at a much later time in life... You said it very well.
And thank you for the encouragement that even the recognition of this, is a huge step toward healing.
-
from Cat-Guesting
I finally moved out of the situation on July 13th (and it was such a relief) . . .until I get a call at 8p telling me to get back over and do some deep-cleaning. Didn't answer the call - instead emailed them stating I would send $100 to get someone to clean out the bathroom and kitchen.
And I got another email back complaining things were left in a pig stye - etc and that they would hire someone to come in and clean. Makes me wonder why they just couldn't leave enough alone. Just graciously accept the $100 and get over it. Things were not left like a pig-stye. The landlords came down all the time to cook (when their stove was broken) and to root through my Videos and DVD's to watch upstairs in their area. Friends from work came over and have said the place was fine. But, I think at this point, disagreeing with the woman now means that nothing was good enough. I've now built a rule on the email address from her to automatically delete when I receive it. They do not have my new address or phone number - only the cell and work number. With caller ID I can avoid them.
It just is so frustrating to take the high-road when it is so very lonely. The new place is wonderful! I've got a trash bin, and a parking place. You'd think that would be a given - but you never know until you don't have them.
I know this frustration and anger will pass eventually - and it's easy to say - calm down than to actually calm down. It's hard to read awful stuff about you - and then second guess yourself to see if you're really like that. It is so helpful to be able to have wise-people as a sounding board - who really know you.
-
Hiya Cat:
I'm so glad your move is over and you are away from that uncomfortable (to say the least) situation. Good for you for blocking their calls, emails and screening the rest. Now you can get on with your life in your new place. I'm glad to hear it's wonderful!! Very glad to hear that!!!
It just is so frustrating to take the high-road when it is so very lonely.
Maybe you will meet some of the neighbours and that will help a little. It is a change to go from living where people come into your place to use your stove, root through videos/DVD's on a whim to a place where you have your privacy and self-respect. Will it help to try to think of this as ....now you won't have to put up with those kinds of interuptions/invasions?
For the record, I think you were very generous to care for those people's animals, home, etc, to worry the way you did when the dog got out, to spend your time and energy searching for the dog, to not respond angrily when they accused you of being away from the phone and when they failed to thank you for your effort, never mind appologise for their rudeness to you. I think it was also generous of you to give them $100 for cleaning when things "were not left like a pig-stye" and very thankless and ignorant of them not to accept the money politely. I think you showed self-restraint, not to give them a tongue lashing, when they "told" you "to get back over and do some deep cleaning". I might have been tempted to suggest they deep clean their brain cells because they're plugged up with junk....not working properly....need to be freshened up. :mrgreen:
It hurts to lose people we thought were our friends. I'm sorry for that hurt, Cat. These people aren't your friends and certainly didn't treat you like a friend. It seems like they treated you more like a servant. So sorry for that Cat. :( :( There are plenty of nice people in the world to be friends with. You don't need friends like that.
Sela/GFN
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"Healing The Shame That Binds You" John Bradshaw
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When Hope Can Kill is essentially a workbook for finding yourself. The author repeats over and over again, there are no wrong answers. Although the author is writing to those in unhealthy relationships the workbook is for anyone who is searching to know themselves. Three-quarters of the book is a question and answer format with journaling.
Controlling People
If You Meet The Buddha On The Road, Kill Him
The Transformation of the Inner Man is a careful and slow read. Very good. I read it about 14 years ago. It literally transformed my life within 9 months.