Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Duped on June 04, 2005, 05:26:38 PM
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:shock: Hello everyone! It is sad;but, I am thankful that I am not the only person who has been suckered. Your forum has really helped me understand what just happened to me and that I am not crazy.
I have been involved with an N for the past nine years of which 4 of them were in marriage. I can't believe I just wasted 9 years of my life. I met this outgoing, charming young lady at the health club while I ran a pro-shop/exercise consulting business. She was very attractive and very bright. She was a Polish imigrant who really wanted to improve herself. I began helping her while keeping a professional distance. Over a 6 month period she made it very obvious that she was interested in a relationship. I invited her to a Christmas party and the rest is history.
There were some warning signs early on which I foolishly ignored. She became very possessive of me almost immediately. I found it endearing as I was older and had dated enough that I had no interest in dating other people. I just chalked it up to immaturity and I made sure that I did nothing to make her feel jealous or insecure.
Soon I noticed that she was very sensitive and did not like any kind of joking or playfulness. I refrained from these activities. My two brothers and a sister are relatively successful and don't hesitate to let you know if they disagree with someone's opinion. It took only one or two get togethers before I realized I had to keep her away from my family. She picked a fight with every one of them and said she hated them. The only thing they did was to disagree with her opinion on something.
I helped her through college by assisting her with papers and projects because she was English second language. Along with being exceptionally attractive and fit; I soon found she was exceptionally intelligent. Her lowest grades in four years at Penn State were 2 A-. Wow, I thought I was very lucky. She was pushing to get married while she was in college which was foolish because her education was being paid for. I agreed to marry her right after graduation. She immediately wantedo have a child but I wanted to just enjoy us for awhile.
She landed a very good job and I had used my college education to go back into the business world because she wanted me out of health & fitness due to the women. I was okay with that and thought we had a very bright future together. I noticed she would take things I would say and twist them into something negative which would consequently cause an argument. Over time she started to eat away at my confidence by complaining about anything I did as not being correct or good enough. She was an absolute perfectionist who had exceptional artistic ability. Our home looked like a show case and I wasn't allowed to eat in the formal dining room because I might get something on the table cloth.
I was walking on eggshells in my own home because I was afraid to talk for fear of saying something wrong. We were doing well financially so we decided I would take a lower paying job to learn how to build houses so we could begin our own home building business. As soon as I became dependent on her that is when things got crazy. She started telling me that I was a blood sucker and she had no respect for me. I put up with this for about 6 months and I had to leave. It is like she never cared about me and just forgot the 10years we spent together. I know she found someone who makes more money and does exactly what she wants when she wants . She has filed for divorce and I feel like what I thought was my entire life, was just ripped out from under me and she is just going on happy like nothing ever happened. She has threatened me and subjected me to verbal abuse because she doesn't feel I deserve anything.
She told me that she would continue to have affairs if we stayed together because I could never meet all of her needs. I know about somatic and cerebral N's; however, it appears I had both. She was very attractive, very intelligent, and very creative (artistic). I never met anyone that had so much going for them. As soon as she began her career it just took off for her. It is like everything she touches turns to gold for her. Her family won't talke to her anymore because she turned against them as soon as she got her college education. She just appears to use people and then just move on to the next level. She is miserable to be around if you are close to her; but, she is a real charmer to strangers and people who have something she wants.
Is my wife an N?
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Hello Duped,
Longtire and mudpuppy, being gents themselves, will probably talk to you from a very helpful perspective, but I'm here now and feeling brave so I'll take the plunge.
Do consider reading Longtire's thread, if you haven't already - it should be some comfort to you.
It sounds as though you were conned by a predator, more than a little bit. Narcissism would certainly be one possibility.
With narcissism, there's a lot of grandiosity. What you describe sure sounds grandiose to me.
And no empathy, no slightest capacity for it. Don't see much of that here, either.
I'm so sorry.
Please don't blame yourself. Predators have to be highly intelligent. They can be very beautiful and extremely graceful, and the whole point of predation is to make sure the prey never suspects what is really going on. It's hard to believe any human being would do that to any other human being, until we've been through it, or seen it happen to someone we know. Even then, sometimes, it can be almost impossible to believe it.
And we grow up being told that the beautiful are always good. Better. Prizes. If we catch one, we win.
Sometimes, people take horrible advantage of that belief. Not your fault. Sometimes, the beautiful really are beautiful all the way through. Who wouldn't be drawn to a person like that, if you believe that's who they are?
Others here will have more insight and help to offer you -
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Thank you for the reply. I started getting real suspicious when she became so angry about spending any time working on my motorcycle or working from home on my lap top. She tried to isolate me from my family and friends. The sad part is that I had read Scott Peck's, People of the Lie several years before I met her. By the time I realized what was happening, I was in way to deep and just tried to deny what was going on. I have been separated since January and I am just starting to feel semi-normal (not waking up in the middle of the night with my heart pounding out of my chest). I actually blamed myself for everything because I did continue to talk to friends & family and ride my motorcycle with friends once a week. I thought if I would have just done everything she wanted, I wouldn't be in this position. I realize now that she never would have been satisfied.
It all makes sense after looking at her past. When she was 6 her mother divorced her father, when she was 8 she witnessed her father being killed in a street fight, when she was 10 her mother left her with her Grandmother so she could come to the U.S. to make a better life for her and didn't see her for 18 months. She was abandoned over and over. Everytime I would go do something on my own I was making her feel abandoned all over again and I didn't even know it. I don't think she knew why she was so angry at me. As a result of all of this she trusts no one and will never have a healthy relationship until she realizes the root cause of her problem. She acts very loving but it isn't real because she can just cut someone off in a second and not look back.
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Hi! It sounds like you have done a good job identifying what is going on for you. You don't sound "duped" any longer.
It's hard to lose a dream. It's hard to realize you've been conned. What I found was that my ex had a way of making me doubt everything I did or even thought. He actually convinced me I was nuts and that his affairs were all my fault. I bought it for quite some time.
Congratulations for looking this square in the eye and trying to figure it out. It's very brave.
I'm sorry your wife is such a loser. Hard to think that way, I know....my exN "looks" pretty good, until you look deeply. But who wants a shallow marriage?
Best to you.
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I also felt very confused and started seaching for answers as she was convincing me that I caused all of the problems and I was sick. I am just glad that I did not give in to the demand for a child. I knew deep down that there was something very wrong and she did not exhibit motherly(nurturing) qualities. The problem now is that I don't know if I will ever be able to trust anyone again. This is just a horrible experience and I truly feel for all of you. One thing this experience has given me is the ability to empathize with hurting people on a much deeper level. I guess this is actually going to make me a better person if I can get over the fear of loving again.
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If the thought of getting close to someone again scares the geepers out of you....that's a good thing. Right now you are guarded for a reason.
You are where you are, that's all. Enjoy getting to know yourself without worrying about any body else's issues.
You won't be feeling this way forever. When you heal, you'll see....there are great people out there. In the meantime....don't worry about the future or the past. Just be happy....and count those blessings about not having children with this person!!!!
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It is very painful to let go of what might have been if she could have just relaxed and enjoyed life. My life has been turned upside down for no good reason. I said that I never looked for someone else to make me happy. I just wanted someone who wouldn't make me miserable. I believe we have to find happiness within ourselves. She was always looking for someone else to make her happy and fill all of her needs.
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I am a guy and I can empathize with you in your grief and hurt. You have been the target of a deliberate campaign of deception and abuse. Predation is the precise word which fits your experience with this Polish piece of work..Many times we men take women on face value .If she looks good, she must be good. I have learned how to TEST their sincerity ( up to a point) and have no problem in testing and being cautious because there are women like your Polish 'friend' who will exploit you mercilessly for their own advantage.
Please stay connected to this forum for as long as you need to ..
John.
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Newby, I will write more later but wanted to chime in
I have been duped too. My thoughts now are how I had 28 yrs of manipulation, got sucked into the charm and sweetness over and over.
I had red flags but the isolation, being young with little family support led me to believe I was needed and helping someone who was hurting.
You are in a good place to learn from people that lived the nitemare.
Talk later OR
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I'm so sorry this happened to you. I'm not a man, and I haven't experienced this in my life, but I wanted you to know that I was touched by your story and I'm pulling for you. Please let us get to know you.
best,
daylily
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It is nice to have support. I was always a pretty happy person; but, now I feel no joy in life. I allowed her to become my life and now I feel like I have nothing. She just moved on and appears to be very happy. She calls once in a while if she has a question on operating something at the house and treats me like I am some sort of acquaintance. She says she hates the lawn tractor and there is nothing wrong with it except it requires reading the manual to learn to operate it. Because she can't figure it out
there is something wrong with the tractor. She takes no responsibility for any difficulty she encounters. The blame is always shifted to the other person. If she is not waited on quickly enough at a store, she will get smart with the cashier. She feels that she is so special that she can do whatever she wants without consequences. So far this seems to be the case for her. She feels God is continually blessing her while she lives above his laws. She may fall very hard at some point if we reap what we sow.
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Hi Newby (Duped no more?)! You are welcome here. Oh boy, as I read your comments my gut started twisting. This sounds sooooo familiar to me.
I have been married to my wife for 17 years and recently figured out what was going on and moved out. I also ignored the signs and then ignored the ongoing actions for a long, long time. If you want the gory details look at my "long, long story" thread. I haven't posted on it in a while so you may have to search for it since it will be further down the list.
My wife was very possessive of me even before we dated. She loved to poke fun at others but had NO sense of humor to laugh at herself. She was pushing to get married while I was still in college and repeatedly talked about really wanting to have a baby every time she saw one. She also twisted things that she or I said into something that made her look better. She was constantly telling me that I wasn't doing enough to support her, but when I asked for some support she told me she couldn't because I hadn't been supporting her "enough." She has a social front that is very outgoing and center of attention. In private with me, though, it was a different story. She could never understand why I might want to spend some time with friends or working on a hobby. She often nagged and complained about my doing this. It was like she couldn't believe that she wasn't the be all and end all of the world. My wife was emotionally abused by her mother and totally smothered/overrun throughout childhood. She was not allowed to be herself and was not valued for herself. Not physical, but deep emotional abandonment in that way. Her favorite saying is "That didn't happen!" when I want to talk about something she has done. She told me many times that she was "perfectly fine and can have a relationship with anyone. You're the one who brought ALL the problems to our marriage."
I have come to believe that my wife has some N traits, but is far stronger with Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD). Have you read "Stop Walking on Eggshells" (SWOE) by Mason & Kreger? It is written for the "non-BPD" in the relationship. You can also checkout these websites:
http://www.bpdcentral.com/
http://www.bpdresources.com/
The joy WILL return. The trust WILL return. When you are ready. You have already taken a big step toward that by posting here. By getting support. By learning that you are NOT alone in your situation or the reactions you have to it. That is the life force in you moving in the right direction whether you were aware of it or not.
Like I said, you're post pushed a LOT of my buttons since there are so many similarities to my own situation. Feel free to Private Message me if you'd like to talk further as well. Keep posting and reading here!
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Longtire,
Thank you for the reply. It is amasing how it could be hidden for so long. It is funny you mentioned "Walking on Eggshells". I picked it up Saturday and am overy half-way through it. The book really points to my situation. The problem is that this situation has made me sick. I started behaving like her. I became insecure, paranoid, and afraid. Now I have to get back to being the healthy person I was before I met her. I actually feel sorry for her and want to help her but I know she needs to fall and then seek the help on her own. I have been protecting her from mistakes the entire time, now I have to let go and think of myself.
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Hi Newby. I sort of think about my wife with BPD (and NPD) as "Typhoid Mary." This is a disease that often affects the people around the "carrier" more than the carriers themselves. Of course, the carriers ARE far more affected than they realize, and ARE far more affected than their targets. However, the carriers very often seem to not notice, and blame the target for any effects they are actually aware of.
I also picked up a lot of the disease that I am working to shed. The first thing I worked to get rid of was the verbal abuse that I was shooting back to her from a place of deep frustration and anger from not understanding what was going on. For a long time I just thought she was a bad person. Now I realize that she has a disease and is just not capable of being in touch with what the rest of us call reality. That helps, but it is still work for me every day. The good news is that I am making steady and quick (in hte big picture) recovery. Even looking back 2 months, I am amazed at how far I have come already. Just looking at each day it is hard to see the progress, but looking back it is easier.
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I am really upset that I spent 10 important years of my life with someone and may have missed my opportunity to have a family. I am now 42yrs old and the dream of having a family looks hopeless. I have to accept the consequenses of falling for an attractive young lady pursuing me and making me feel like a king (for awhile).
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Hi, Newby. I think it's important to express how mad and frustrated you are. Scream it..it may help!
At some point, when you are through identifying it and acknowledging it and screaming about it (which, I believe is a step NOT to miss), then you will find a way to let it go and move on. It will happen.
Easy for me to say, no? Actually, it comes down to some kind of faith. In ourselves, in God, in others, in goodness.
Nothing is wasted, nothing is a mistake.... it's all learning.
I could regret the 25 years I spent away from the "right" man for me...it was a seperation of my own doing. I could have had children with him instead of the idiot I did have kids with. But after feeling that regret (after finding him again) and announcing and really exploring how it feels, I found it was no longer productive to my happiness to continue feeling bad. I have no idea if I had married him way back when if we could have stayed married. No one ever really knows. All I know is, things have a way of unfolding in ways we never expect.....and if you keep the faith that there will be goodness, then you will find it.
42? You're a baby!!!! :lol: Hang in there. If you see yourself as a father.... you never know how that will play out. Bless you!
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I THINK THERE
can be steps backward that are foolish
and could have been avoided
and cause extra needless anquish
but that nevertheless
in the long run
god's power can heal all
and one's part is to recognize
if one is complicit with a fallen sinful nature
that they might need convicted of
and to repent
and accept the holy spirit that
teaches all things
because it does not speak of self
see jesus last supper discourse in john
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Mum,
Are you saying you had a decent guy then fell for the idiot, then ended up with the decent guy much later and it didn't work? I am sorry if I misread this. I do believe in universal justice as I had a great girl from a good family when I was 18 and I totally messed it up out of immaturity at about 27. Then I got this nut job. I hope my karma is changing. After messing up that first relationship, I learned my lesson and vowed to not make the same mistake again. I can't think of anything else God wants to hit me for. I have been sowing a lot of good seed for the past 12 years so I hope a harvest is coming.
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Don't worry Newbie....not understanding my writing puts you into a very big club here!!!! :shock: (ok, Mudpup, you don't really have to chime in here if you don't want to, unless to make Newby feel even more like part of the club!!!! :? )
Man, if you guys could just hear me speak, it would make sense.....full of intonations and dramatice flair!!! :roll: It's that right brain dominance thing....yeah, that's it!!!
AH, well.
Here's the deal: I was engaged to a great guy 25 or so years ago. I left, never to return (2000+ miles). Dumped him badly.
Married a jerk, had children, divorced him, did nothing to heal and married another confused person (briefly), divorced him did the work I should have done in the first place (therapy related) and......
Great guy and I reconnect!
SOOOO, when you least suspect it, the universe/God hands you what you need in a state of unconditional love. Keeping faith isn't essential, I mean it's going to happen anyway. But having faith makes it easier and happier to travel the road.
Even the "bad" has meaning. I have 2 amazing children I get to be a mom to!! My fiance has a beautiful child he gets to be a dad to. I have an enormous struggle I get to learn from.
It's all good....because I choose how I deal with it.
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Hi mum,
I always understand what you're saying.
I might have to stand on my head and read it a couple more times, but I always end up getting it. :wink: :D
Lets face it the world is stacked against us right brainers. :shock: :(
mud
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Mum,
I take it your fiance is the great guy from 25 yrs ago? If that is the case, it is amazing how things work out. God's will be done no matter how badly we mess things up. My younger brother had a good girl when he was 18 and he messed it up. He went onto other relationships and personal growth until God really put him in a corner and brought him to his knees. He ended up reconnecting with the good girl 19 yrs later, get married within 6 months and now have a beautiful 2yr old son. They have had issues to work through but they are doing great with a Christian therapist who has assisted them in healing all of the wounds they inflicted on themselves through the years apart.
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Hi Newbie and welcome:
It's a sad, annoying, frustrating, confusing, demeaning, heart wrenching road you've travelled, I think. I'm sorry for all of that and all you've been through in trying to make a family for you. The thing is.....imo.....you have to mourn all of the losses you've incurred.
The loss of a loving, compassionate, honourable relationship with someone you love.
The loss of the life you thought you would have.
The loss of your role as a husband.
The loss of children you might have had with this person.
Etc.
Maybe it would help to make a list of those losses and really grieve over them? The reason I think this is important is because you will then release the pain inside and be one of those dudes showing up in the next relationship with a bunch of.....baggage. You can empty those suit cases out and be free of their weight.
.....she is just going on happy like nothing ever happened.
Ya know what? These people are never happy. Thank your lucky stars that you can mourn and grieve and get the pain out, examine whatever errors you made, learn from them, and move on. You know what joy is and will find it again. But this person you were married to, she does not know what pains her, does not know how to mourn it, will never examine herself or her errors because she's too terrified to admit that there could possibly be anything wrong with HER, she won't learn a thing that is positive or that will help her to find what she actually needs/wants, will never know joy and is stuck........in the same pathetic place she has been in for ages. She may be able to pretend she's happy, look like she's happy and put on a good show but really.....deep inside......she's not happy.....she's afraid and alone and hasn't a clue how to connect intimately with another human being.
I'm a woman, in case you're wondering and I welcome you here and offer to listen and share in your losses/grief/pain, as I'm sure many others will too. But more so.....I wish to instill hope in you....that you will learn from all of this....you will trust and love again and it's not too late to start a family....with the right person, if it is meant to be. Hold onto your hope for a better life...it might be, as mum so often puts it, just around the corner!
GFN
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It would really help if I proof read and wasn't so impatient and quick to press "submit"
The reason I think this is important is because you will then release the pain inside and be one of those dudes showing up in the next relationship with a bunch of.....baggage.
Should be:
The reason I think this is important is because you will then release the pain inside and not be one of those dudes showing up in the next relationship with a bunch of.....baggage.
GFN
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Mum & GFN,
I think I have read enough posts from both of you that I no longer have problems understanding you, Mum and I unconsciously enter missing words for you GFN. A sign of a true friendship I think. :D
Newbie,
It is heartbreaking when we realize that we sacrificed a big piece of our lives for someone who did not appreciate it, took advantage of it, never really loved us back, lied, cheated, manipulated and ultimately devastated us.
For me it was 22 years and I am now 54 years old. Like mum, tho, I have two wonderful children that will always make the time with him worthwhile. Obviously, I am not looking to have more children, but I would certainly love to find someone whole, healthy, loving and caring with whom to spend the last half (wishful thinking) of my life. But before I can do that, I need to do ALL the work necessary to make myself whole and healthy (I think I already have the loving and caring part) so I can bring everything necessary to a relationship that will make it an equal partnership.
You are certainly not too old to start a family and won't be for some time--the advantage you guys have over us girls. Take the time now to do the work and the dividends in the future will be huge. Have faith that God's plan is in place for you and if He lead you to it, He will lead you through it.
As GFN said, take the time to grieve all the losses, feel the anger and eventually you will find the peace. After 21 months of therapy, the peace is finally entering my life and the pain and anxiety is slowly slipping away.
I have faith that the same will happen for you if you allow for it.
Blessings,
Brigid
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GFN & Brigid
It is nice to have the encouragement and support. It seems weird to open up to strangers but it really helps to know compassionate hearts exist. I just keep beating myself up because I kept pushing her abandonment buttons out of total ignorance which makes me blame myself for everything. When she would bark at me for stupid little stuff I would withdraw or worse yet, threaten to leave her to get her to stop. A few times, when I was exhausted, I would fall asleep in my recliner while watching TV. She got very upset and hurt without me even knowing it because she felt abandonded. I guess I was very secure and comfortable and didn't need someone reassuring me I was loved constantly. I was kind to her and always treated her respectfully. I would give to her but I also did some of the things I wanted to. Because I wasn't always doing exactly what she wanted when she wanted it, she felt we were too different and didn't have common goals. That wasn't the case, I just believed in balance and compromise. She feels she has the perfect man now because he just does what she wants and has no interests of his own. I do feel she may have some issues with jealousy over the attention his 16y/o trouble son requires. I just keep rehashing this stuff and think I am the one who screwed everything up. It is very confusing. I can forgive so easily and she holds little things against me from 9 yrs ago. She does the same thing with her family. Her only relationship is with this other guy. I think she is rebuilding her relationship with her mother and is blaming for their problems. I always encouraged to reconcile with her mother and be forgiving.
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Hiya again Newbie:
(Thanks Brigid for filling in those missed words! It feels so good to have friends who do that!! (((((Brigid))) ).
I just keep rehashing this stuff and think I am the one who screwed everything up.
This rehashing is good. It helps us to go over what went on and see what we did that might have been done differently. I really believe this is an important step after any relationship breakup. There are always mistakes that we made because no one is perfect. As long as we can learn from our errors and use the information to prevent a repeat, this is a good thing.
But..........if it goes on too long.....and if we find ourselves taking alllllllll of the blame.......well.....that just doesn't sound right, does it? She's perfect and you're the big boo boo of all male creatures??? This all happened because of stuff only youuuuuuuuuuuu did? Only youuuuuuuu messed things up........she is completely free of that??
I doubt this very much. More likely.......you made a few mistakes and she took advantage of every single opportunity to drill those in (is my best bet).
Please don't beat yourself to a pulp. You may very well have done some things wrong in your relationship and you are even willing to take on the entire blame for it's failure.....but that only tells me that you are human and regretful for whatever you didn't do perfectly.
Do you think she's sitting at home thinking the same stuff??
Is she as human and regretful?
Doesn't she get some of the blame?
(((((((((Newbie)))))))))
GFN
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I just keep beating myself up because I kept pushing her abandonment buttons out of total ignorance which makes me blame myself for everything. When she would bark at me for stupid little stuff I would withdraw or worse yet, threaten to leave her to get her to stop.
The way borderline dynamics operate is, they test, test, test (and test) to see how far they can push someone to abandon them. If you'd tolerated her barking, she would have worsened her behavior to provoke you. If you'd tolerated the worse behavior, she would have escalated even more. They make sure they are abandoned. You couldn't have changed it. A borderline is like a sieve, no matter what you provide, it just goes through the holes, is forgotten, devalued, and you are blamed once again. There was nothing you could do except save yourself before you were destroyed. One day you'll see this, but I understand that right now, you feel like you could have rescued her.
bunny
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The sick thing is that I look back and see how I had a borderline experience when I was in my young (18yo) relationship. I kept testing a young lady until she finally blew me off. I really did a lot of self-evaluation, reading and growing and realized what I had done, repented and vowed to never act that way again. My bad experience came from my first love at 16 yo.
I was innocent and loved this person who just wrecked my heart. That scared me to death so I tested my next relationship because I knew eventually she would do the same thing. I never tested this relationship because I knew love should not be tested. I was truly able to commit my life to my wife knowing and believing in the marriage covenant. I have been wrecked again; however, I still will never test love again. No compassionate human can do this to someone. It is selfishness in its truest sense. I was able to accept who she was and never tried to change her. I supported her to become all that God intended for her to be. Before we were married I told her that I liked who I had become and if she didn't like who I was, she shouldn't stay with me. She said she was happy with me and we got married. She started complaining and trying to change everything about me right after the honeymoon. I did try to compromise but the more I compromised, the more she demanded. I finally dug my heels in and this infuriated her. I asked her about the discussion prior to the marriage and she said she thought that I would change.
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I have been trying to be NC so I can heal. She sent me an email yesterday asking me to round up any keys for the house and she wished me a happy birthday. I did not respond and today I got an email stating that she forwarded my credit card bill. I did not respond because neither email required a response, no game playing. Just called and left me a vm stating that she would appreciate it if I would respond to her emails because we still have a house, even though she is taking care of everything (I was asked daily when I was leaving). She said she still cares about me and hopes I am doing well. What do you all make of this? I believe she just wants me around because I was very good for her and a valuable resource. She had mentioned before if she could maintain contact with me. I can't allow myself to be used like that. There is someone out there who is deserving of everything I have to offer and won't kick me to the curb on a whim (for more passion). Your take on this will help me read what she is thinking.
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I think you are on the right track. Not responding when a response is not necessary is right on. My ex goes ballistic (ok, even when the sun comes up!) when I don't "respond" to his emails or requests immediately. To the point of sicking his lawyer on me, and taking me to court...
Control freaks want to control the time frame in others as well.
The best advice I got was to respond to emails that really deserve no response with "recieved email". It acknowledges that you saw it and no more.
Her telling you she cares about you may be true (don't spend any time trying to figure that out!!), but also her needing evidence that she is still doing that....ie: your responding, is all about her placating her own guilt. That pain is hers to own. You took it from her for years, and she doesn't want that to stop.
Someone here, long ago, talked about putting the lid on the pain receptacle....as in, "sorry, I'm full, you get to keep that pain of yours."
The most compassionate thing we can do for others, is to set our own boundaries. I read this and have been trying to wrap my head around it, which is why I say it a lot lately. I think it's letting people deal with thier own messes. They get to learn from thier pain, too. Let them.
I think you are being very smart here. Let her stew, her mess is hers.
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Do you think she is actually feeling guilty about what she did to me?
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Hi mum,
Let her stew, her mess is hers.
This reminds me of some wise words I have learned to live by. Kind of embarrassing where they come from.
There's an old Bugs Bunny cartoon where he's onboard with Christopher Columbus sailing to America. They're dining in the Captains Mess (or dining room). Bugs gets up and opens the door to leave as a big wave makes his bowl of soup slide off the table onto the floor making a large mess. He looks at the camera and says "Well, If its the 'Captain's Mess' let him clean it up."
How much time do we waste cleaning up the Captain's messes in our lives?
If you combine "It its the Captain's mess let him clean it up" with Popeye's declaration that "I yam what I yam" you have an almost complete philosophy on how to live life. :wink:
And all from watching cartoons. :P
Newby,
I think you're onto something in Romans 8:28 because it says He "works all things together for good.... for those who are the called according to his purpose". 8:29 tells us what that purpose is; to conform us to His Son.
In this awful situation you are in, with everything you have lost, He will use it to make you grow and become more like Him. Its hard to see when we're in the midst of it, but if you let Him do the work, when you look back you will see the good He does will far outweigh the pain you are now experiencing.
God bless.
mudpup
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Newby: I think on some level, what's left of her consience may bother her....or she just really likes knowing she can get to you.. Either way, it's best ignored by you. Hard to do, but try not to spend energy on her.
Mud: I don't have your extensive cartoon or New Testament experience....but I think it's all good! That darn human thing. Never really knowing what's going on, but having faith it's for good anyway, if we stick with love as a bottom line. Sorry to simplify, I guess that would be a non-religious interpretation.
PS: when my eating disorded sisters would complain about thier tiniest bit of body fat, how many grams of whatever they ate today....I used to just say "I yam what I yam" and change the subject. (skinny people complaining about their bodies is sooooo boring!). I do have those pointy Popeye elbows, so I feel entitled to use those words!
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Newby,
There is someone out there who is deserving of everything I have to offer and won't kick me to the curb on a whim (for more passion).
The first part of that statement is correct. There is someone out there who is deserving of everything you have to offer. I don't believe the second part, however. She did not kick you out on a whim and certainly not for passion. These N or BDP individuals don't opperate on whims imo. They are calculated in their decisions and careful to be protective of themselves. Her new relationship may be about sexual gratification and control, but true passion (which I believe goes hand-in-hand with true love) is not something of which she is capable. In order for there to be passion, there must be intimacy--also something of which she is incapable.
I'm sorry you are blaming yourself for so much of the demise of your marriage. I think Bunny really hit it on the head (she always does). Read very carefully what she wrote and try to understand that your relationship was a lost cause. The relationship she is in now is also a lost cause, but it will take him awhile to figure that out.
Do you think she is actually feeling guilty about what she did to me?
IMO, no. Not the way you and I think of guilt and remorse. I think she is testing you to see if she still has control over you. I agree with mum to continue as you have been and do not respond to her e-mails or voice mails. She will try to draw you back in at some level and you don't need that. Stay strong.
Brigid
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Newby,
She is a textbook borderline: "I hate you: Don't leave me." This means that she will dump you, abandon you, trash you, destroy you, and STILL expect you to return emails, talk to her on the phone, listen to her problems, and take care of her. You are expecting adult behavior out of her. But she isn't an adult inside. She is about two years old. Maybe younger. She may feel a bit of guilt but it's the guilt a child has for being caught stealing cookies. Not adult remorse. I'm sorry. Keep up the NC and save yourself.
bunny
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Hi Newby,
Brigid wrote,
I think Bunny really hit it on the head (she always does). Read very carefully what she wrote and try to understand that your relationship was a lost cause.
This is good advice. Read what bunny said, and understand from it that while your wife tests and tests and tests until she is abandoned, that abandonment is the one thing she is most terrified of. Thats why she wants to keep you around and on the hook. She has to prove that you will abandon her just like everyone else has or else her whole world view is wrong, but she also wants you to prove you won't abandon her no matter how awful she treats you. It is impossible to win this game and you had nothing to do with causing it, you just got suckered into a marriage with a (probably) incurable woman who is bananas.
There are plenty of women out there who aren't bananas. And most of them would be thrilled with a guy who is 10% body fat. :wink:
Fortunately my wife is able to understand the virtues of a guy who is about 20% body fat and about 80% head fat. :P :roll:
mudpup
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Your story is so so similar to mine. Very attractive female, very flattering, and very well rehearsed. So used to getting their own way that they assume that is how life is meant to be.
Her house is a palace, her life is a complete mess. She will mess mine up too, and would probably have succeeded, but I have just found this site and realise that I am not going mad.
I now have to figure out how to extract myself from this quagmire. It won't be easy as she is relentless and ruthless. Now I have the tools that need to handle her with skill and dexterity. This site has saved me from a lifetime of misery.
There is only one way to treat these people and that is to ignore them, refuse to argue, hang up on them, and only ever conduct conversation in a steady unemotional voice. It frustrates the hell out of them, but care is needed as the manipulative side is just around the corner. I will keep looking over my shoulder, and suggest that you do the same!
Best of luck, you are not alone.
RobG
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Mudpupy, you are too much. You are probably better off with the fat head.
I am finding inner beauty will make you much happier in the long run. I think my body is one of the things that got me in trouble. She never would have come after me if I didn't meet her standard. I had to look right because I was a reflection (part) of her. One of the adoring things she did was to buy all of my clothes and put out my clothes each day. I thought she was being kind; but, all along it was to make her look good because I was her husband. I am careful to wear clothes that don't show much because I want someone to get to know the person inside. I am extremely leary of women who dress in short skirts and are augmented. It is like the kiss of death. This whole experience has really got me back in the "word" and I find that if I would have been playing by the rules, I never would have gotten myself into this mess. I am definately on the straight and narrow and intead to stay there. The rules are for our own good.
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Hey Newby,
You are probably better off with the fat head.
I am finding inner beauty will make you much happier in the long run.
Now you've got me sounding like somebodies blind date nightmare story. "He's really nice and has a great personality...":? :roll: :(
My wife does have some standards. :wink:
Just kidding. Well, I mean she does have standards, I'm not kidding about that. Just kidding that I was offended.
One of the thing that Ns and Bs seem to have in common is a great talent for what they do. Its their entire identity so I guess its natural they're good at it.
So don't feel bad if you were deceived. Don't waste time asking why you couldn't see it.
They're professional con men and they can spot a mark a mile away. We're just amatuers caught in a shell game run by a pro. We never stand a chance until they take their mask off, and being pros they seldom do that until its too late. As someone else said, just thank God in heaven you didn't have any kids with her. She'd be playing you like a Duncan yo-yo the rest of your life.
This whole experience has really got me back in the "word" and I find that if I would have been playing by the rules, I never would have gotten myself into this mess.
See, some good has already come of it.
Take care.
mudpup
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Newby, I moved out when my wife and daughter were out for a long weekend school trip. My wife was chaperone for the trip. She left me a note saying she hoped everything went well for me and was praying for me in "this situation." You see, she can't comprehend that I left because of her behavior (and my reactions to it, of course!). She believes, as she has all along, that there is something wrong with me that I can't see her prefection the way she does. She really can't even imagine that she has contributed to the demise of this relationship in any significant way. Does she feel guilty? Of course not, she has never done anything wrong and has "been very patient with me." Does your wife feel guilty? Probably not, based on your description of her behavior. Has she asked you to forgive her? Take her back? Apologized for her hurtful words and actions and mistakes? Admitted that she realizes that she played a part in this marriage breaking up? All the things you would say and do if you suddenly found YOURSELF in that position? The sad thing is that she probably has been in this position before, maybe many times. The nice words stuff sounds more like an attempt to look good and cover up her responsibility and to try to make you look bad. "Yes I cheated and kicked you out, but I was really nice about it. There must be something really wrong with you if you respond to my perfectly nice words by getting angry."
The best thing you can do for yourself is to detach emotionally as well as in communications. You are part owner of the house, right? So you will still need to work together somehow to dispose of that. I also asked my wife to communicate with me only through EMail unless there was an emergency where our daughter needed something right away. In my case, my wife works, but I basically support her. The first EMails from her mixed business with telling my why she needed more than half the money each month and that she deserves it more for various reasons. I replied only to the legitimate business and gave up explaining, just kept reiterating that I did not agree with her. The last several EMails have been much shorter and just business.
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last post describing the dread her
sounds a lot like
my wonderful wonderful mom
is there a problem :)?
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Mudpuppy,
I need to appoligize for a misunderstanding. When you said you had a fat head, I took that to mean your wife feels you are very intelligent ( head fat, large brain) which is much more valuable than low bodyfat. Thanks for your keen insight.
Longtire,
You are very courageous to leave with all that you are losing. You are right that she just feels I have done everything and she has made no contribution to the break up. I don't even try to explain anything to her because she cannot understand. She says that I have a narrow head( polish for narrow minded) and that I am a controlling freak. I don't control anything, and she tries to control everything in her life.
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Hi again Newby:
How's the NC going? I think that is the best idea. It will help you to get a chance to take a deep breath of fresh air.
Also, I like what Longtire said:
"The best thing you can do for yourself is detach emotionally.....".
Not the easiest feat but doable, especially with a "narrow head". This particular feature will assist you now....in thinking within only a very narrow space......."detach emotionally.......detach emotionally......"
:D :D :D
Glad you're still posting. Hope each day will get a little easier.
GFN
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Longtire: Your line of questions about the wife (yours? Newby's?) taking responsibility for the demise of the marriage....or apologizing, etc...really hit home with me, and I had sort of forgotten it.
When I caught my ex in the final affair, and said I wanted out, he didn't want a divorce.........I did. So I divorced him. He became the "victim" and never once, I mean not once, apologized for his behavoir, the affair, the lying....not even once. He said he didn't want to lose his home or his children, and that intellectually it made the "most sense" for him to be married to "someone like me" but he never really acknowledged that his actions and behavoir and carelessness with my life and MY marriage vows (oh, yeah, his too) had led to this. It was all my fault. If I had somehow been a better wife, HE would not have had to lie, cheat etc. I was in the same rotten marriage, but I didn't cheat or lie. (not that I had time being a single mom, basically!....but I simply would not consider that!!!!!)
Anyway, thanks for letting me vent. That's an old scab right there!!!!
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GFN,
I actually had a good day yesterday. I am staying strong with the NC. I mentioned that she sent me a short email two days ago just asking me to round up any house keys from family and wishing me a happy birthday.
I did not respond. Yesterday she sent me an email just stating she forwarded a credit card bill. I did not respond. Both emails were statements so I figured I did not need to respond. When I did not respond to the 2nd email, she left me a vm requesting I respond to her emails because she does care about me and wants to make sure I am okay. She went on to say we share a house still "even though I(she) take care of all". To confirm receipt, I sent an email stating OK, thanks. It is difficult but this just seems like a junior high relationship with adult consequences. It is very saddening. Before her emails would give me an excuse to respond and end up appologizing and defending myself which just gave her confirmation she was right again.
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Good for hanging in there, Newby, with the no response. Don't be surprised if she finds a way to HAVE to have you respond. It's funny, in a cruel way, to think of her racking her brain to find just the right thing to get to you...
My ex called last night from out of state just to ask if the children would be ready to see him today and at what times.....ALL of those plans were already made and set through an email last week, but he just HAD to have the contact. It was pathetic, really. I just said: yes, we agree on that understanding. bye.
It's good for me to note WHY he felt the need to call, because he is usually up to something (legal, nasty)...but after I spend about one second determining that I can move on....mostly it's a pathetic attempt to keep some type of contact.
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Longtire,
You are very courageous to leave with all that you are losing. You are right that she just feels I have done everything and she has made no contribution to the break up. I don't even try to explain anything to her because she cannot understand. She says that I have a narrow head( polish for narrow minded) and that I am a controlling freak. I don't control anything, and she tries to control everything in her life.
Newby, glad to hear that you are staying strong. At some point we just accept that our replies can't have any positive effects, at least for us. :(
I have found that my wife's accusations are almost always true if I swap "I/me" and "you." For example, when she tells me "I'm perfectly fine, you are the one who brought all the problems into our marriage," she really means "You are perfectly fine, I am the one who brought all the problems into our marriage." Now, this is not true on either point, but I believe it does reflect her beliefs and fears about the situation. However, for her to be conscious of being less than perfect is like psychological or even physical death to her. So, her mind protects itself unconsciously by swapping pronouns. It really rings true in most cases when I do this. I do try to be aware if she is picking up on something that really is my issue, so I'm not in denial about myself. That has been pretty rare, though. She speaks and acts more out of her own fears and internal stuff, than any real observation or commentary on me.
Also, I like what Longtire said:
"The best thing you can do for yourself is detach emotionally.....".
Not the easiest feat but doable, especially with a "narrow head". This particular feature will assist you now....in thinking within only a very narrow space......."detach emotionally.......detach emotionally......"
I agree this is NOT easy, but doable. Persistence and time help in this. I just don't want to give the impression that I am saying "Oh, well, you just have to detach, which is so easy everyone can do it anytime, so what's wrong with you?" I have found detaching is so hard because it goes against my lifetime habits of appeasement and self-blame.
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This is just so bizarre. When I had a relationship end in the past, we didn't stay in contact with each other. The marriage does necessitate some contact but not like this. I can't understand this need to purposely hurt someone you just destroyed either. If I hurt someone, I left them alone and even felt guilty for hurting them. She seems like a shark that when she smells blood, she attacks. When someone who did something to me shows true remorse, I melt. I can't hold a grudge against someone who obviously is sorry. She can't even forgive me for things I actually did to protect and benefit her which she twisted around to be bad. This disorder seems to just blind people from any real truth. It isn't like they are deceived by someone else, they are deceived from the inside. I can understand why Scott Peck considers this stuff evil. When you get mixed up with these people, it just wreaks havoc on you life. In the weeks following my departure she added me to her email distribution list and would send me dirty jokes. I was crushed and not in the mood for these types of jokes. She had no idea what I was going through. She just complained about how she was going to get the snow plowed. I wish that was my biggest concern.
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Newby,
It is amazing how quickly they can detach and be totally unemotional about destroying your life. I still remember the conversation I had with my ex a week after he picked up and moved out (actually walked out of a joint therapy appointment, went home, put some clothes in the car, said good-bye to his daughter and left with she and I holding each other and crying). I became angry about something he said and his reply was "I thought we could just be civil about this." How he could imagine that someone could go from total and complete devastation to civility in one week, with no other communication in between, still has me baffled. But it shouldn't, because I now know that that is easy for them because they were never emotionally attached in the first place.
Try not to spend any more time than necessary on trying to figure out why she does what she does, or says what she says. It will always seem crazy, bizarre, empty and unbelievable to those of us who actually have emotions, care about and love our mates, and have empathy for others. Work on yourself and getting your feet back on the ground. The more you can do that, the less likely it will be that she can pull the rug out from under you again.
God bless,
Brigid
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Hi Newby,
I need to appoligize for a misunderstanding. When you said you had a fat head, I took that to mean your wife feels you are very intelligent ( head fat, large brain) which is much more valuable than low bodyfat.
No need to apologize. Easy misunderstanding since the brain is something like 70% cholesterol (fat). At least thats what I heard. It would be hard for you to know i was actually referring to external fat as in "What a fathead that mudpup is".
Longtire wrote,
However, for her to be conscious of being less than perfect is like psychological or even physical death to her.
I think this statement is close to being absolutely right.
I would only question one part.
I think they're very conscious of being very imperfect. I think they're terrified of others knowing how imperfect they are.
From my observations I think I would put it this way; For her to allow others to be conscious that she is less than perfect is like psychological or even physical death to her.
I think they hide how self aware they are.
This disorder seems to just blind people from any real truth.
They're 'truth' is they think they are horribly defective and screwed up, and the most terrifying thing that can happen is other people will find out how screwed up they are. This will bring ultimate shame and humiliation onto them, they think. As longtire said, shame unto death.
Borderlines deal with it differently than Ns but the root seems to be pretty much the same. And from what I have read the outlook is not terribly different. Borderlines may more easily submit to therapy, but I haven't seen anyone say they respond much better.
I could be wrong on that. It wouldn't be setting a precedent if I was. :?
mudpup
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Mud,
I gotta love it!
It's such a treat to have cartoons and the Bible quoted ALL IN ONE POST. :lol:
You're a trip.
God Bless
Mia
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She just complained about how she was going to get the snow plowed.
Isn't that all you really need to know? I think the hardest thing about coming to terms with this type of relationship is that you have to face the fact that you didn't really exist--not as a separate consciousness with independent thoughts and needs, anyway. The narcissist, I think, views everybody and everything as an extension of his/herself, even in what are supposed to be life's most intimate and supportive relationships--parent/child and husband/wife. The "other" only exists as a support to, or extension of, the "self." If narcissists are really insecure (and I'm not always sure I buy that argument), then the "other" is really proof of existence: I manipulate, therefore I am.
Of course your soon-to-be-ex wife wants to maintain contact, because she wants to remind herself of how successfully she manipulated you, and therefore reinforced her idea of "self." If you really want to stick it to her, disengage. I have found with N's in my own life that the screaming argument doesn't really bother them; they always fight and often win. It's indifference that leaves them powerless. Remove yourself from the realm of things that she can influence, and watch her do her best to manipulate you back into that circle.
I often think that's the answer to the question, "How could I have been so blind?" You (or anyone) could have been so "blind" because a master manipulator put years of effort into blinding you! She saw something in you that really fed her sense of self, and she did everything she could to control you so she could have what you gave her. There probably were many moments--even months or years--when you seemed to be having a perfectly fine marriage (as long as you didn't actually challenge her). Familiarity bred comfort, which in turn bred a sense of security.
I can't offer much concrete advice, but I am rooting for you. My brother had an absolutely disastrous marriage to a pure narcissist. He didn't know what hit him until 20 years and two children later. While he's divorced now, he is very bitter, and I don't know if he will ever really trust people again. Which is sad, because I remember him as a delightful young man--funny, handsome, intelligent, and decent. He was my hero when I was a little girl.
You're on the road to something much, much better than my brother got out of life. Please cultivate whatever it is in your character that let you start the journey.
I'm in the D.C. metro area, too. Isn't that first blast of summer absolutely intolerable? Every year at about this time, I resolve to move. Anywhere.
best,
daylily
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Brigid,
I agree that I have to detatch because she can never be trusted.
Mudpuppy, She had so much to be thankful for at her age but she was just never satisfied.
Hi daylily,
You are right about that first summer blast we received. Hot and sticky.
Thank you for your comments. In one way I am thankful I didn't have children with her. In another way I feel that I may have missed out on having children. My wife definately has some N traits ;but, I have found her to be classic BPD after researching things further. I don't know which is worse. I am reading "Stop Walking on Eggshells" and it is like reading my life. It is just to bad. She couldn't enjoy anything because she is in constant fear and always trying to create more security for herself.
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Hi Newby,
In another way I feel that I may have missed out on having children.
Didn't you say you're in your late forties?
You've got plenty of time. You sound like you're in great shape. There's no reason a younger, normal (don't forget to make that a prerequisite) woman won't come along.
It may not feel like it now, with the wound still fresh, but the scar tissue will form and you'll get past her.
Things get better once you're out of the Twilight Zone you've been in. :wink:
mudpup
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Hey Mia,
You're a trip.
Thanks, buddy.
You're pretty spiffy yourself. :wink: :D
mud
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Mudpup, I will turn 42 Saturday and I am very fit. It is just that she left my life a shambles and I think it will take me about 2 years to get things straightened out to the point where I will have anything to offer a normal woman.
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My wife is dislexic. Does that help explain the backwards thinking?
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Hi Newby,
Well 42 is even better.
Your life is a shambles now, but this too shall pass.
I know a big dumb lummox of a guy who's 46, same as me, and married to an absolute angel who also happens to be a knockout, and who's only 35. And like I said, he's kind of a goon. :?
I don't want to sound like I am minimizing your pain of losing what you thought you had and how you've been betrayed.
But I'd like to point you toward the hope that this is an opportunity for you and a blessing in disguise. Thank God you found out now, instead of being strung along another twenty years.
You discovered your mistake and now you have a chance to start over fresh, a little older but a whole lot wiser. I suspect when the right gal comes along you will appreciate and treasure her more just because of the contrast with how this weed whacker treated you.
I have not heard of a connection between BPD and dyslexia.
I don't think Bs have backwards thinking in the sense that dyslexics spell things backwards. They just have infantile thinking.
Maybe if she wrote backwards with color crayons there would be a connection. :roll:
mud
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Mudpuppy,
Thanks for the encouragement and hope for a normal future. It sounds like you have a great wife. How did you come to this forum? Did you have a close encounter?
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Newby,
Just to offer a little more encouragement. I am a woman who is now 45, I did not have my child until I was almost 39. When I was in my 20's I had every intention of having a child. By the time I was in my 30's I had pretty much thought it was too late and I had missed out on that. Then I met my husband at the age of 37, he was 38 and the rest is history. There are a number of women in their 30's who haven't had children yet. Also you might find and marry someone who has children to share with you.
LM
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Guest,
Thank you for the encouragement. I have experience most things that I wanted to in life and I really only have the desire to be the best husband and father that I can be. I thought I was on the path to fullfill that dream until my wife became insatiable.
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Well, I got an email yesterday stating the auto ins. company did not cash the check for our insurance which she sent in about two weeks ago. The payment was due on 6/2. I went to the account and just paid it online. When she sends a check, she checks her bank statement online to see if the check is cashed. She watches her account daily. This can actually be good so things don't slip through the cracks. She is very borderline with OCD. I didn't mind the ocd because she was very responsible. It was a little annoying that I wasn't allowed to eat in my own dining room. Maybe that was because nothing was ever mine, it was all her's. I just responded with what I had done. She sent me a sweet thank you with smiley faces. She appears to be so happy now. I guess that is good for her. I got an email today stating the check was cashed today so I can just deduct the amount from what I send her next month. It appears her new source is keeping satisfied for the moment. It may work for them as long as he never wants to do anything for himself.
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Hey Newby,
Thanks for the encouragement and hope for a normal future.
You're welcome, pal. My pleasure.
It sounds like you have a great wife.
Truer words were never spoken. Even when her hormones are a little out of whack. :wink: :P
How did you come to this forum? Did you have a close encounter?
I'm a little of the odd man out here. I had a good childhood and i never married or got tangled up romantically with an N.
My brother however is, in my opinion, suffering from NPD.
We were in business together and are presently in court. He has essentially destroyed my relationship with the rest of my family, tried to destroy my reputation and cost me untold sums of money.
My story is buried several pages back in the board.
So not only did I have a close encounter, you might say I have been the victim of an alien abduction. I'd say it's been a lot closer to the 'X Files' than 'Close Encounters', however. :evil:
mudpup
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Mudpup,
I am sorry to hear about the problem with your brother and family. I am fortunate to have a very close family who would never do anything to purposely hurt each other. I believe that is why my wife hated all of them. She may have been jealous of our closeness and respect for each other. We all have our faults but that is what forgiveness is all about. She tried to turn us against each other and when she didn't succeed, she said I picked them over her. That wasn't the case, I believe we can all overlook each other's minor flaws and live in peace. A person can say just about anything to me without getting me upset because I know my own heart and who I am. I guess that is why I couldn't relate to my wife's need to create some sort of drama out of the most trivial things. We could never go more than two weeks without her picking a fight. I know we both believe in reconciliation; so, I hope your family will be healed in the future. I know you can do your part to forgive. Life is to short to have these battles. My parents both passed on in there 50's and it gives me greater respect for life and family. I wish my wife would feel that way after losing her father at 8. But, I guess she was to young and it just contributed to fear of abandonment. I wish I could share with her but I know that is impossible. Maybe someone else can help heal her pain.