Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Newby on June 04, 2005, 08:19:28 PM
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I am reading about Borderline personality disorder and it appears to be very similar to Narcissism. What is the difference? Narcissist's appear to be more gut-wrentchingly ruthless.
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Hello,
If you're the same poster as Duped, I read your story and your ex wife sounds classically borderline to me. That does not rule out narcissism. The main distinguishing features are,
primarily borderline: abandonment is main issue
primarily narcissistic: being humiliated is main issue
I'd check the site www.bpdcentral.com for more insight.
bunny
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Newby,
I am not that knowledgeable, but the psychologist who facilitates my divorce support group explained that Narcissism and Borderline are opposite ends of the continuum of personality traits, but do share some of the same characteristics. I would agree with Bunny's description, but its probably a little more complicated than that. I think that B's lack any ability to control how they relate to you and don't care at all how you relate to them. N's tend to be more self-involved and care very much how you relate to them. I'm not sure if that makes any sense, but its seems like what I have heard from my T and from the facilitator.
Brigid
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Hi Newby,
from what I've read, the main difference is that B's are suicidal/engage in self-destructive behaviour, an N might threaten to commit suicide, but that is just for attention. Another big difference is that N's have no empathy, B's are often overly empathetical. having said that, the conditions apparently often overlap... Confusing, huh? The site that bunny recommended is very good, hope it will help you clarify things.
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I am still trying to sort through this to make sense of it. I could never do anything to purposely hurt someone. She has gone to great lengths to bring up very small things from early in our dating to justify what she has done. She has written nasty letters to each of my family members telling them what they have done to her. An example: I won a special motorcycle racing series and was awarded at a presentation. My brother wanted to take a picture of me with the trophy girls and my wife flipped on him and made a scene for disrepecting her. The girls weren't as attractive as my wife and I told her that. During the presentation, I couldn't avoid standing next to the ladies. I made my brother appologize to her but we still fought about this on the 3hr. drive home. She put this in the letter to his wife and encouraged her to leave my brother. This is just one example. I took the blame for these things because I could see how she might view this as disrepectful; but, I could never be this jealous and would have been proud of her for the achievement. She also would get upset with me for not taking her side and telling my family off when she fought with them for just disagreeing on some opinion. I just stayed quiet and tried to keep her away from them so I could keep peace with her and my family. I just couldn't yell at my family for no real reason when they are all good people that I have always had a good relationship with. Her family was so dysfunctional that I feel she resented the closeness of our family. My family really welcomed her and wanted to have a relationship with her; but, she would always twist their good intentions into something bad and pick a fight. It really saddened me.
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I am still trying to sort through this to make sense of it. I could never do anything to purposely hurt someone. She has gone to great lengths to bring up very small things from early in our dating to justify what she has done. She has written nasty letters to each of my family members telling them what they have done to her.
Here is the explanation in a nutshell. Some people are extremely unstable and their inner structure is as fragile as a house of cards. Your inner structure isn't like that: you're stable, you are aware of what you're doing and the reasons. If you can imagine being in a semi-dreamlike state all the time, where things are not what they seem, where everything is chaotic and confused, and you're being persecuted all the time by enemies who lie and pretend to like you (paranoia), this is what your ex is like. I know it seems impossible but that is what happens. Her cognition (thinking) is seriously distorted. And she can't think straight because her entire internal structure is this house of cards, or swiss cheese. Bottom line it's not solid and she is totally out of control.
Do not take her accusations or actions at face value. It's all a bunch of crap. Focus on stabilizing yourself -- because these people can drag normal people into their craziness -- get a good therapist to heal from her massively destructive influence, and you will be fine and able to love a normal woman in the future. You really will.
bunny
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Bunny, Thank you for your insight. I definately was very grounded and allowed myself to be dragged into the craziness. Now it appears that I am the crazy one because my life is disheveled and she appears to have everything together. I am beginning to think Scott Peck is right that this is actually Evil as this is all about lies and distortation which is the alleged trademark of the father of lies. It is like the person has no conscience or soul. I think she preyed on me because I was predictable. Before meeting her, I had learned from past failures how important honesty is. I was completely honest with her and she can not find one time in nine years where she could say she caught me in a little white lie. She also knows that I won't retaliate against anyone and I believe she is going to try to use this virtue (weakness) to her advantage.
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Now it appears that I am the crazy one because my life is disheveled and she appears to have everything together.
This is only temporary until you get your bearings again. She doesn't have everything together. She will always be miserable and create chaos wherever she goes. You may not be into retaliation but you aren't a martyr either. Don't let her take advantage of you. Protect yourself and don't surrender your own self-interest to look like a good guy. No more nice guy, okay? She will destroy you without hesitation if she perceives you want to look like a nice person. Be extremely stone-faced and firm. Honesty is a good idea with someone of equal honesty. With her, I would reveal nada and drop the honesty like a hot tire iron. I'm not saying to lie, I'm just saying not to reveal anything that isn't in your own interest.
bunny
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Bunny, you give some really good advice....now, if I could just figure out how to practice that.... :roll:
I have a difficult time, still, deciding what will most likely be used against me and what I can relax about. Since I am still embroiled in a legal battle with the exNidiot, it's a challenge not to be paranoid, but know also, that most, if not every, move I make can and will be twisted in a way to make me look "bad" and him look "good". He has an attorney who is much like him....a real "shark". I am damned if I do and damned if I don't. So it has been helpful to me to simply move forward, with my own good intention, take advice of my attorney (there's the "be careful" and not let on to everything part), and let the rest go.
So, I think I would add to your advice a caution to not get stuck worrying about what the ex is up to, or you could spend all your time in a dark place (that's most likely where the ex is) and lose sight of your goal (life without the ex's energy).
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Mum & Bunny,
I will heed your advice. Now that I realize she never cared for me and never can, I won't worry about her best interests before my own. She was always saying that she was putting me first when in reality I was putting her first. She said it was all about me because I would do something I wanted to do once a week. Instead of always just doing what she wanted. This is where my guilt came in. If I just would have given up my motorcycle the marriage would have worked. I am trying to stay out of a legal battle because I know it can get real ugly and expensive. The only problem is that she feels I don't deserve anything. I hope you can get your legal mess straightened out before you make the lawyers rich.
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So, I think I would add to your advice a caution to not get stuck worrying about what the ex is up to, or you could spend all your time in a dark place (that's most likely where the ex is) and lose sight of your goal (life without the ex's energy).
Here's how I look at it...I assume the ex is up to no good. It doesn't have to be deeply analyzed. They are destructive and I accept this about them. So I don't relax about anything. Nor do I obsess or worry about it. I simply assume that they will take advantage of any uncertain boundaries. So I am going to know what my boundaries are. And I'm going to always be thinking about what is in my interest. I stop thinking about their interests entirely. It's all business now.
bunny
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Are the following normal N-traits: Before I left she would come home and for no reason start to yell at me and say she couldn't stand to come home and she my face. She would then proceed to ask me repeatedly when I was leaving. After I left she said that I abandoned her and she didn't tell me to leave. She said that she was asking me so she could prepare and I would leave at a time when it was convenient for both of us. How can a spouse stay under those condistions? Also, I left in late January and she sent me an e-mail on valentines day asking if I had forgotten it was V-day. She said "like usual". I never forgot Valentines Day. I was just kicked out and we were separated! Was I suppose to send her a dozen roses?
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Those are classic borderline behaviors: "I Hate You - Don't Leave me." Don't second-guess your own normal behavior. You're okay.
bunny
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Bunny,
I guess it is a blessing that she appears to be borderline instead of N as it appears there is hope for healing with borderlines. I also realize out of ingnorance that I made her borderline worse by not understanding how to properly respond to her needs.
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Bunny,
I guess it is a blessing that she appears to be borderline instead of N as it appears there is hope for healing with borderlines. I also realize out of ingnorance that I made her borderline worse by not understanding how to properly respond to her needs.
If you think she's going to get better, or that you made her worse by lack of understanding, you are mistaken. Save yourself, you can't help her. :cry:
bunny
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Hi newby --
Bunny is totally right about this... save yourself. You've been trying to save her for almost a decade. If it really depended on you, it would long since have happened.
Does your state allow divorce mediation? Saves a lot of $ on legal fees.
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Stormchild,
I am hoping we can get things resolved between us because she doesn't want to spend any extra money on an attorney. I will know when I get the settlement agreement what action to take. Now that I realize how dangerous this is, I just want to get out of it as quickly as I can before she realizes that I am on to her. She still thinks she has me fooled and I haven't told her otherwise. This stuff is downright scarey. To realize there is essentially no hope for a person is very sad. I always try to see the good in people.
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Newby,
I guess it is a blessing that she appears to be borderline instead of N as it appears there is hope for healing with borderlines
From what I have heard from psychologists, B is harder to heal than N (if that is possible) and more difficult to deal with. Either way, be glad you are getting away. There is little hope for healing.
Brigid
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Newby, I responded on the other thread asking about NPD before I saw this one. See my longer response there. Yes, your wife sounds very BPD like mine. The way I understand it is that people with BPD "know" they are inferior (no matter how much you reassure them) and are always on the lookout for being abandoned, often to the point of paranoia. People with NPD "know" they are superior and are on the lookout for people who doubt their perfection and who they can use due to their inherent entitlement. Both disorders have relatively high co-morbidity. The means you usually don't just get the one, a bunch of other stuff goes along with it. BPD with some NPD and NPD with some BPD seem to be pretty common.
It is important for you to keep in mind that you in NO WAY CAUSED her to have this disorder and behave this way. There was NO WAY you could cure or mitigate this for her. Nothing you did or didn't do caused the problem, no matter what she said and how many times she said it to you. It is her issue and she is the only one who can change it. If she were in therapy like DBT and getting approrpiate meds if needed, then you *might* be able to find an acceptable arrangement with her. If she is not taking responsbility for her condition, then there is nothing you can do about it. Sorry, that sounds harsh. I'm not trying to shout at you, just trying to help. Take what is helpful and leave the rest.
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Bunny, as usual, you have a great knack for putting things together. Thanks.
Newby: too late, the lawyers are already sending their kids to fantastic private colleges, and mine will have to get some amazing scholarships.....
really, it would curl your toes to know the finacial aspects of it. You won't be in such a position, as you don't share children. Again, count those blessings!!
My second divorce was a do it yourself type at a document service place. Of course, we didn't hate each other, or have kids together and as long as I paid for it, my second husband was pretty cool about it. He sort of mooched off of me anyway, so we didn't have a lot to split up.
My fiance and his ex wife used mediation, and wrote their own everything including child support and visitation.....but they are both emotionally healthy with one priority between them: their daughter. They have the ultimate in a sane divorce.
Good luck. It doesn't have to be awful....it may not be, you never know.
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Mum and Longtire,
You both give good advice and put things in perspective. I just have to accept the fact that there is no hope for her and that she has just moved onto another source of supply. I must have been a good supply to keep her satisfied for ten years. I believe the fact that I was so emotionally grounded and healthy allowed me to last. My health was just eaten away until I became unhealthy enough for her to notice, then she was gone. I am actually beginning to come back and it seems to upset her that I appear healthy and am not completely destroyed. These people are in absolute bondage and it appears the only hope is some sort of spiritual healing (Christ). I will be definately looking for signs of this stuff in the future and asking alot of questions about family and childhood.
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You seem like a great guy, seriously. That's usually how they get us....we care. A lot. But instead of letting us help them, they can't go there, and they are parasites instead.
I am happy you are coming back. She will do a bunch of stuff to get you back to the way you were (compliant) and Bunny is right about that.
The book, "The Dance of Anger" really spelled this out for me.
So, expect some more weird, manipulative stuff to come from her, but stay focused and on your path to healing. Best to you.
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Newby, you sound like you are on the right track. Keep up the good work and you will make progress. Don't forget to take care of yourself. It is a common trait for people here to have taken care of everyone else, but themselves
These people are in absolute bondage and it appears the only hope is some sort of spiritual healing (Christ). I will be definately looking for signs of this stuff in the future and asking alot of questions about family and childhood.
I think you have hit the nail on the head. I was stuck in this situation until I admitted that I cannot do anything about it. I've had to learn to give it up to God and let go.
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Yes, that was me again. Really having touble staying logged in today...
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I haven't heard from her since I told her she needed to add something very important (that I get something) to the settlement agreement before I would sign it. It is very upsetting that she is living in the house that we built together and her "friend" is there every weekend helping (out of the goodness of his heart) her with the landscaping. Her friend just finalized his divorce from his XN/bpd/alcoholic who had him doing exactly what she wanted and no sex for the last 5 years. He thinks he hit the jack pot with my nympho/attractive/intelligent/ successful wife. I set some boundaries and this guy is just so patient and understanding. He will be nothing but a bloody stump by the time she is through with him.
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When she decided she wanted out of the marriage she said that I was her biggest challenge. I couldn't believe it! We were suppose to be a team working together to build a future and she viewed me as someone she had to conquer. Is this typical of N/bpd?
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This inability to develop, emotionally, is the very essence of BPD and the behaviour of those who have BPD which is largely driven by the control and illusion of needing to protect oneself at all costs. It is this need to protect that can keep borderlines alienated from their need to learn. If you put the need to protect ahead of the need to learn, sadly, you will continue to feel an ever-increasing sense of needing to protect which will constantly deny you chances to learn what you need to learn in order to break free from the narcissistic protections attempts you make in the first place.
http://www.borderlinepersonality.ca/bordernarcissism1.htm
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FROM THE SAME SITE AS PREVIOUS EMAIL :)
Borderline narcissism is an overcompensation for deep-seated feelings of perceived inadequacy and for feelings of being "less than" and "incompetent", as is grandiosity and arrogance which will be the subject of my next article here.
It is that overcompensation, along with denial of their actual feelings that leads borderlines to often be so narcissistically indifferent to those with whom they are otherwise closely in relationship to or with. That sudden pulling away, that sudden coldness and acting as if there is nothing between them and someone else is a function of borderline narcissism and is designed to further the mal-adaptive defensive coping skills of the borderline who is usually trying in any way possible to not be put in touch with his/her real feelings because the anxiety and fear of those feelings remain greater than the need for them. When you are as dissociated from your "real" self, as many borderlines are, there is no real need in the here and now of that chaotic dissociative existence to know how one really feels -- especially when the pain of ever- mounting unmet needs hurts enough all by itself, and must be avoided at all costs.
BY THE BY MY GOOGLE SEARCH WORDS WERE
borderline narcissistic bpd
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Hey, again, Newby. I hear the shock in your posts. I have heard that from many people here.
My good friend found her husband of 27 years had been having anonymous homosexual encounters for years... a huge shock to be sure.
Even after the initial shock, she still mourns the person she thought she was married to, even though she knows he was a lie/liar.
It will take time. There is no way around it. I'm so sorry for your pain.
You will, however, make it....you sound like you will make that choice to do so.
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Mum,
I just hate this depressed lonely feeling I have from losing everything that made sense in my life and made me feel secure. I guess I need to find my security in God again. I lost something without even knowing it and became co-dependent and unhealthy. I know that I am vulnerable and need to stay by myself for quite some time until I become healthy again. I really have to overcome all of this fear that I now feel. When I got married I thought that I would never have to go through these feelings that I experienced in an earlier breakup, again.
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(((((Newby))))))
I'm so sorry. I remember that when I "caught" my ex in the last affair,
I felt as if the bottom of my gut had disappeared. As if I had lost the ground I was standing on. Even though the ground was horrible, toxic, even, at least it was under my feet.
I was FORCED, I felt, into action to protect myself, the future emotional health of my children, etc. That it all came down to one moment was so overwhelming. And yet....it was simple. I want out. Of all of it. I want out of this game where the rules keep changing and I am never ever playing it right. I want a sane life.
He, of course, instantly said "who is he?" No big mystery as to why he thought there must be someone else (he obviously always had another waiting)...it wasn't enough that I wanted ME back?
It's crazy time, that's all. Hang in there. I read a book, I think, called Crazy Time....it's about getting healthy again after a divorce. I didn't read it until after my second divorce..... should have read it after the first.
It's about what you are trying to do. Get your bearings, find yourself again, before you follow a habit/pattern and get into another unhealthy relationship.
I feel for you. I know this hurts. As an American, body obsessed woman, the only good I really saw from it (tongue in cheek here) was that I lost a ton of weight (I really didn't have to lose) and had a super model's body. Wore a bikini for the first (and last!) time. We call it the divorce diet.
Then I had a mysterious lung disease and landed in the hospital....so I don't recommend it!!! :roll:
Hang in there. There are lots of us on this journey. I have a mentor who says, "there is no such thing as a mistake". I think about that a lot. It is soothing.
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I see your point on no mistakes, just learning experiences. Right now I can't see the daylight. As far as the health thing, I have always been healthy and never let that slip. I lift weights, do cardio and eat well so I maintain a constant weight with body fat around 10%. I am not a fanatic as I only spend 30-40 minutes a day on exercise. I understand the importance of being physically strong to withstand emotional storms. I believe in healthy maintenance of the mind, body and spirit. This thing just set me on my ear. I know according to Romans 8:28 that God works all things for good who love him; but, I just thought I would neve be dealing with this sort of stuff. I thought I left this behind me 14 years ago.
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I think the main thing I learned lately: that you never have it totally together.
Just when you think you've got a handle on things: WHAM! You don't. It's the fluidity of life that this teaches us. Acknowledging that we are human, that frailty is an essential part of us is very scary. There is no solid ground. It's not there. It's always changing.
But in knowing that, it's not that it makes life any easier, it just makes us less attached to figuring it all out, and gives us a chance to forgive ourselves for not knowing it all.
I think this sums it up for me: "Let go. Attachment equals suffering."
It's a choice. I mean the suffering. Pain is inevitable, really, because we are human, but taking pain as a learning tool and not making it a lifestyle is a choice. Best learned while slogging through the swamps of pain, unfortunately...
You'll be ok. I remember feeling like I was on the bottom of the ocean, not really sure if I should hang out down there (couldn't get any lower) or maybe come up again, swim out, as it were. But it was when I realized I was down there by choice, that I got to decide to explore how bad it felt (very important, by the way, IMO) and how long I would do it, that I saw my way up again.
Realizing it was a choice...my choice....was so empowering for me. And that's something I needed to get good at: realizing and using my power instead of feeling like a victim.
Now, I should let you know that this was 9 years ago, and a mere year and a half ago, I found myself, yet again, at the bottom....a different part of that ocean, but still the bottom. And I learned that all over again. Slow learner. But I can see now, that I spend less and less time down there, mucking about, because with repetition, I have learned a new habit of picking myself up and choosing some other way to do things.
And I fully expect I will get my face in the mud again, and will be saying "didn't I already learn this? Man, this stinks!!" And then I will figure it out again, and make another choice....again.
The idea that we, as humans, can have it all, figure it all out, have all the answers is a waste of energy, in my opinion. We spend so much time arguing that we know what is right or true, becoming attached to that, as if it defines us, that we miss life entirely. Some things we are attached to DO define us, as in those who struggle for a public cause... but knowing how brief this life is, how it can change in a instant is as humbling as it is shocking.
There are sooooo many ways to do life, and all so interesting.
I made a decision to set my intention to be loving and to try my best to have that guide my choices. Beyond that, the ground I walk on is ever changing. But I have faith that I can deal with that, and if I try and stay connected to a higher self/consiousness (God?) I can get a little help there.....
I hope to be helpful, not preachy. All in all, you have to go through this yourself...all the advice in the world will only help when the time is right.
I wish you well. Sending you light and love, Newby.
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Mum,
Thank you for the heart-felt response. I don't view advice as preachy. The more I learn the more I realize how little I know. I don't have that sick gut wrenching feeling in my stomach; but, I do feel depressed and uncertain of my future. I guess this will teach me to not look past today. My basic needs are being met so I guess I shouldn't complain and feel sorry for myself. I thought you reconciled with the great guy? Did that hit a snag a year and a half ago?
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No, we are still together (great guy and I) The glitch is in that my ex has thus far prevented me from moving out of state. I can move, my children cannot....(like I would leave them!!!)
My ex is frequently not even in the country, so it's additionally unfair in many people's opinions....long story. Custodial parents get screwed in this state....and not so coincidentally, most of them are women...(ok, I won't get started!).
I have hope, though, and would not trade my situation for anything, because it is what it is, and I have two great kids, and a wonderful man (who happens to live far away). Bottom line, he won't leave his child and I won't leave mine. (Plus, we don't want to live here!) It's all good.
Things change all the time.
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Oh, and as far as feeling sorry for yourself? Go ahead. It's a necessary step. I wouldn't miss that one!! My kids got me out of that stage, but it was important for me to go through it.
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Newby,
I can totally identify with everything you are feeling and the deep hurt and devastation that has been left behind by the ending of your marriage. Within 2 weeks of sending my first child off to college, I found out that my xh was having an affair, was addicted to pornography, had been lying to me for most of our marriage (22 years at that time) about the lack of intimacy, and the list goes on. I was CLUELESS to any of it. I knew the marriage wasn't perfect, but I was in it for the long haul, thought we loved each other enough to work through any problems and totally and completely trusted him.
Feeling like the rug was pulled out from under me doesn't begin to describe it. My world turned upside down in less than 2 months and I was left gasping for air. I dropped to 110 lbs. (I'm 5'6"), couldn't sleep without medication, couldn't eat without medication and truly felt like I had entered the twilight zone.
21 months later, I am finally divorced (3 weeks today), back to a healthy weight (have been for some time), have been off antidepressants for over a year and generally feel good about life. I am still lonely at times, but I have my children with me and that makes me very happy. Learning of my xh's n personality has been helpful to me for healing. Knowing that the wheels would have come off the marriage at some point no matter what, makes me glad that it did not go any longer than it did.
Therapy has been essential for my healing. Joining a divorce support group (where interestingly enough, most of us were dealing with n personalities) has been very helpful as well. You must walk through all the pain and hurt in order to get to the other side. You will have setbacks, but they will become less and less painful and you will recover more quickly each time.
The lessons I have learned from this horrible experience have been priceless, however. I will never take life for granted any more. I don't sweat the small stuff any more. I value my friends more than I can say, and I will always be the first person there when a friend is in need because I now know the importance of that support. It helps to look at the positive aspects of this painful experience when I am in a low point. It helps to put things in perspective and see what is really important in life.
I wish you well as you take the journey to find your healthy self and with any luck a healthy new relationship as well.
Blessings,
Brigid
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Mum, It sounds like you are at a very good place with alot to look forward to. My hat is off to you.
Brigid,
You are going through a horrible ordeal and I am sure your xh will one day look back with a lot of regret. It is great that you have good children to keep you busy and give you something to look forward to. I feel like I have a new set of friends at this forum and I want to thank you all for the warm welcome. I have had some good friends who have been there for me but I am trying to dump on them less as it is selfish. I need to become positive and healthy again so I attract the right kind of people. I believe the next time I will spend some time courting the person with no physical involment so we can truly get to know more about each other and become friends first. No more of this quick passionate romance stuff for me. An N or BPD would never have the patience or self-discipline to last through a non-physical courtship. Maybe the bible had it right all along?
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Newby, once again I'll say that it sounds like you are on the right track. I realize that it doesn't feel good at the moment, but it will get better and better every day. Have faith and hang in there.
One thing that has helped me tremendously is to ask myself "Where would I be right now if I had never met her?" Where would I want to be living? Where would I have chosen to work and be working now? Who would my friends be? How would I feel? How would I view the world without this hurt? What would I want to do right now, or this weekend, or after work today? What do I like in food, entertainment, home decorating? Basically separating out what is truly me from the results of the relationship and the hurt and trying to "fix" things by submerging myself. Most of the time I become more aware of myself and my likes and dislikes. Sometimes I realize that I would not have this friend, or go to that favorite restaurant if she had not been in my life at that time. What matters in the end is re-finding myself again in all that mess and throwing out the mess that isn't me.
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I agree with you Longtire about refinding yourself. I have to admit that I only lost myself in the last year. Prior to that, I really frustrated her by continuing to some of the things I enjoyed. I knew I couldn't give in completely because there would be nothing left of what I stood for and what attracted her to me in the first place. She decided to end the marriage because she felt we had different dreams and goals. This wasn't true but it was her reality because I attempted to maintain some individuality.