Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Dazza on June 08, 2005, 04:21:15 PM
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If this were a talk radio show, I'd begin by saying, "First time caller, long time listener...."
After reading many of your moving posts, I've decided to throw my hat into the ring and ask how you're going to deal with Father's Day.
Me? Well, I am keeping a safe distance from my N dad. There is no other option for me.
What about you?
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Welcome Dazza.
I think you will get lots of support here, as it seems many are dealing with N parents, or the fallout of having had one...
Good for you for keeping distance. I know from what my kids are going through, how very hard it is to feel ok about that.
I will spend father's day remembering what a great dad (now deceased) I got to have, while my children spend the day with the biggest Nidiot in North America. (Ok, the western states, because Mia's ex might have a hold of the east coast!)
Sending you welcomes and lots of light.
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This is a good question. For everyone, even those whose parents are dead, this type of holiday is fraught with booby traps. Forgive my writing.
I will just pass on a comment made by my best friend in high school, as I agonized over what to get my father for his birthday: "What did he get you for your birthday?"
This comment made me realize that often I got nothing, and my father would later, much much later, say that he forgot my birthday. "When is you birthday again?" He asked me many times until I finally caught on that he should have known, he perhaps did know, but it was of no importance to him.
I have digressed. I am saying to look at it from the otehr side. What did your dad do for you on your birthday or mother's day or whateve special occasion when you should have been able to expect a thoughtful gift? What would he do for you in your place if you were the father? And act accordingly when you select his reward.
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Welcome Dazza,
I ditto what mum said, right down to the good and kind deceased dad I also had.
But you have plenty of company here with others who have Daddy Dearest stories to share. It will be interesting to compare father's day posts with the mother's day ones.
Hey mum,
Maybe you and Mia could get your exes all steamed up about who the biggest N is. Maybe start a grudge match.
You know like Godzilla versus Gamera. One behemoth jerk from the west coast; one colossal ass from the east, the ground trembling under their big cheesey feet. Grappling for supremacy they both fall (in slow motion of course) into the sea and sink to the bottom. :twisted: :shock: :twisted:
Of course the problem with that is Godzilla never seems to croak. :(
mud
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ok, in that case, Mia's ex can be Godzilla!!! (hi, Mia :lol: )
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What was the name of the ficticious greeting card company created here for Mothers Day? Hellmark?
"Happy Fathers Day" from Hellmark
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I am undecided as to what to do for father's day - I think I'll create something, ie: something real, as opposed to the usual illusion of a happy holiday!
I learned how to knit this winter. I was originally thinking of selling scarves after I knit them - but that would bring me in about 25 cents an hour profit :wink: Maybe I'll revisit my college days and make smelly candles.
As an aside, and following the mention of birthday presents earlier in this thread (and incidentally that old thread of the most narcissistic things said ever) my mother told me for my birthday this year that she had forgotten my birthday, which is why I didn't get a present... but she then went on to say that she later remembered my birthday but decided not to get me a present. I am happy to say that instead of asking why, I laughed, and it was sincerely funny to me. :lol: She didn't laugh, which made me laugh more.
So this father's day, I wish you all a happy create a day - create what you want for yourself for that day... :idea:
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Thank you all for your warm greeting to the board...I look forward to exchanging ideas and offering support!
It took me a long time to figure out what was wrong with my family. And for years, I didn't have a clue.
My conflict came to a head about six years ago over a relationship that my N mother, N father and N sisters didn't accept.
Despite the fact that I am a responsible, educated, and accomplished adult, they proceeded to stalk and harass me. My mother said some of the most terrible things, and her horrible words (like her voice), will always echo in my mind.
Adding insult to injury, they showed up at my office looking to pick a fight with me in front of my co-workers, called my landlord and said that I was a drug dealer and was living with a prostitute, threw out many of my prized possessions (and car!) that were at my parents' house, called me at all hours to pick fights...and this is just what happened in the first month.
I couldn't eat or sleep or function, so I went to a counselor to try and sort things out. After a few sessions, he said that people in my parents' age group often act in this manner. Huh? I told him that he had to be kidding, but he was serious. I then asked about my N twin sister. We were born at the same time, raised in the same environment, attended the same school, etc.....we could be a case study! His explanation was weak.
The following week, I told the counselor that this was my last session. He became flustered and said that I needed weeks of exit sessions, etc. "You're not ready," he begged. Despite his shameful plea, I thanked him and left.
By luck, I found a new counselor. Within five minutes of the first session, she said that I come from a N family and couldn't believe that I wasn't like them at all. I knew what N was, but didn't know the full ramifications of the disorder.
(Side note: When I asked my new counselor about what she would do/say when I decided to leave, she said, "I would wish you all the best and would be here should you decide to come back." Good answer.)
From there, I learned a lot about N and maintained a silent distance from my family. I also had to distance myself from a few other people in my life who were N.
After five years, I agreed to talk to them again last year under certain conditions. Studying N, reading about it and discussing the past gave me a better framework...but it was hardly perfect.
Two months ago, I was forced to distance myself again as they were all up to their old tricks again....too long of a story to tell, but I had to protect myself.
This all brings me back to the topic of my initial post about Father's Day. Holidays are/were always a tough time for me, and I am often bitter how they've tainted several days of the year for me. I understand why they do it, but it doesn't make this bitter pill any easier to swallow.
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Wecome Dazza:
Good for you for laying those boundaries and enforcing them. Sometimes, it's all that can be done to look after you.
I understand why they do it, but it doesn't make this bitter pill any easier to swallow.
Is their behaviour is the bitter pill? You don't have to swallow it. You can spit it out, if you want to. You don't have to take their pills.....or accept their actions in any way or form.
You have your own life and self to look after. I say.....leave their behaviour, their mess....to them. It's good that you understand why they do it but that doesn't mean you have to continue to take it.
Good for you for posting here! One more time....welcome!!
GFN
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Hi again Dazza,
Stormchild posted a website on the 'what helps' board that might give you even more insight into your familiy's dynamics and maybe yourself.
You sound like you might be the 'wise child' described on the site.
I'm sure you already know this, but by being normal and leaving their little system of denial you are making it really hard for them to keep the denial up. To them you're threatening their web of weirdness with exposure. So you're being stalked and punished for betraying their sick little world.
Me too. Not much fun, huh?
I pasted that URL below if you want to take a look. It sure explained a lot to me.
http://www.angriesout.com/grown20.htm
mudpup
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Hi, Again, Dazza: I read the "bitter pill" to mean that is the state of things and you have accepted it....even though it's unpleasant. I'm sorry.
Holidays were always a wonderful time when I was growing up...all of them. I'm sorry that holidays are painful for you instead.
My ex either remembered them or not, depending (I think now..) on whether he had some guilt...then I got expensive things. But the "feeling" of holidays that I remember from my youth was never there, and I am sorry for my kids as well. I do what I can, myself, to make things special, though. For instance, I see father's day through my children's eyes, so I help them get or make something for their dad. It's really so they feel good....if it were up to me, I'd leave a bag of flaming poop on his porch!
He never helps them get anything for me....they are now old enough to do things alone, but I usually tell them Mother's day is happy just because I get to be their mother (and then they clean their rooms!!). I think they feel a little bad, though, as if they haven't been at my house right before a holiday, they have no time to prepare.
So, maybe, like me, you could take care of your child (inside) and do something nice for some older man you know....or don't know...
This is so far fetched....don't know if I could do it, but at my mom's nursing home, I see old men with no one to visit them, no one to sit and talk or send them something. Maybe that could translate into an anonymous gift to an old soldier's home...who knows. All I know, is father's day isn't really about having a great father...it's more about being a great kid.
I think you are a great kid, because you have detached from the drama and dysfunction. No small feat.
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Thanks again to all of you for sending so much positivity my way!
GFN, you are totally right about the bitter pill I refer to. They are the sick ones, not me.
Down deep, I will always wish that I had a normal family. I try to not get too lost in that feeling, and sometimes it is easier than others. That sentiment is always heightened around a holiday, and that is ironic as most holidays were pretty terrible for me.
Mudpup, you are so right about being the 'wise child.' I read this amazing book called "CHILDREN OF THE SELF-ABSORBED" that briefly discussed the role reversal of a child playing parent to a N. That was the role I played for most of my life.
And yes, they do feel threatened because I am fairly open about my relationship with my family and they don't like that at all.
Fortunately for me Mudpup they haven’t harassed me this time around. I wish you all of the strength in your personal situation.
[/b]
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Hi Dazza,
And yes, they do feel threatened because I am fairly open about my relationship with my family and they don't like that at all.
It might or might not make it worse to be open about them. Sometimes the truth being disseminated causes them to withdraw in the hope the truth will stop being told.
The problem with these weirdos is, its just the fact of you crawling out of the swamp that constitutes the threat.
Even if you never said a word about them you would still be a threat, because you are a challenge to the lie they all know they are living.
Its either attack you or confront the mess of their own lives.
Thats an easy choice for an N to make.
They will NEVER admit to making a mess of their lives.
Its so much easier to try and make everyone else as miserable as they are. :evil: :evil:
mudpup
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Mum, I think you offer some wise advice.
From what you've described, you've taken the high road with your ex and that should be acknowledged. Seeing a holiday through your children's eyes is something wonderful and could be so easily overlooked as a great solution. It takes a person of character to act so strongly.
Funny that you mention visiting a nursing home....
Before I recently cut ties with my family, I mentioned to my mother that I was thinking of doing some volunteer work, like visiting the elderly, etc. My mother looked at me like I had three heads and said, "You don't have to visit strangers, you should be visiting us more!"
Where most normal, grounded parents would encourage their child to do some good in their community, she took the opposite viewpoint. Why? Because it wasn't about her.
So last night I did my first volunteer gig for a city job's program. I helped an older, downsized woman polish up her resume and coached her on some basic interview skills. My client was super-nice and most appreciative.
A few minutes ago, my friend (who, after being a volunteer for 2 years, is about to take a job at a non-profit) e-mailed me and inquired about last night's volunteer session. I replied that it went well, but that I felt that I didn't do too much. I mean, all I did was listen to her and provide some basics.
My friend replied with this quote:
Margaret Mead said, "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed people can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has."
Inspirational words to live by, indeed.
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Hey Mudpup:
When I refer to my situation, people around me know about my families' actions. I don't go telling everyone per se, but I can't deny it.
For years, I felt a lot of shame about their actions and the conflicts that they caused for me. From the most minor (routinely getting into arguments with staff and people in stores/supermarkets/parking lots) to major (calling a girlfriend and telling her that she had better watch out), it's not healthy for me to bottle up anything.
The irony is that when I was estranged from them for so many years, they constantly complained/sobbed/grieved to my sisters that everything would be better if I were around.
So I came back. And when the honeymoon was over, they went back to their mean, hateful, judgmental, self-centered, manipulative ways. I know that I can handle myself; I just worry about my two young nephews who are exposed to all of the mania.
And Mudpup, you are so right that they'd never admit that their lives aren't so great and that my parents and sisters are scared people who are so afraid of being inferior.
Dazza
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Wow, Dazza. That's quite a coincidence....(but I don't really believe in coincidences...it's all very clear, actually).
I think if you can follow the thread of things....you are finding your inner "child", your "parents" (or the ones you should have had) every time you put one little bit of help to others out there. I'm impressed by your generosity. You are a wonderful child. Healthy parents would be proud of the person you have become. It's hard to make up for "lack" of parents, but you are doing it for yourself.
I know my daughter will make up for this "lack" of a father she has, and she will do it herself. He is there, but emotionally distant from her. He gives orders, but doesn't really love her in the way a father should. He "loves" his son more, but his definition of love is so scewed (love=control) that my son will have some work to do as well, when he finally breaks free.
I see that it can be done, though, and you are really a good example.
Thanks for saying so, but I don't know if I always take the high road, really. But I do always put my children above everything else....my ego, and clearly even my need to be rid of this man. (long story, but I've been trying to get physically away from him for a few years now).
I went into motherhood knowing full well that the job meant putting my children's needs first, but I also knew that's where the joy is. That's all it is.
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Hi Dazza
Here's another site that may be helpful. Please don't be put off by the extremely emotionally charged word in the URL - the site is about all kinds of abuse, not only the horrendous kind that is mentioned there.
This site describes the way in which any family member who comes to recognize the dysfunction is scapegoated and ostracized, as a whistleblower - just the same way that organizations ostracize and scapegoat whistleblowers who expose their internal corruption.
hope it helps. and welcome to the board!
http://incestabuse.about.com/cs/safetyplans1/a/Whistleblower.htm
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Here is another article that was a resource from the site mudpuppy listed:
http://lynneforrest.com/html/the_faces_of_victim.html
LM
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Hi Dazza and all,
Thanks for starting this thread, Dazza, and sharing your story here. I am pretty new myself and I have just started to bounce around and read some other threads. A little at a time. :)
Wow, I can really relate to all that you said. I actually about fell off my chair. Probably not unlike many others here, too. I had a completely N. family. It was never made logical sense to me that my siblings were N.'s too. I always questioned myself because of that.
Isn't it supposed to be that children got abused and then the children were the victims. Why weren't my siblings like me?! Sad, alone, scared, hurt, etc. No, they took the other route and followed in Mom and Dad's footsteps, little marching N's.
So I ALWAYS doubted myself and beat myself up for being SO different, which is EXACTLY what those bleeping N.'s wanted. Poking, prodding, humiliating me for just waking up in the morning. And yes, to this day stalking me to change my mind about how it was and what really happened. PLEASE! I didn't need to say a word... they HATED me. From the moment my foot touched the floor till my head hit the pillow they taunted me.
And what has been my nemesis my whole life... WHY DID THEY HATE ME SO MUCH?!?!?! The only mantra I said in my head over and over was, "I just want to be left alone today. Is that too much to ask!" Obviously it was! As you guys said it so clearly...They hated me for being. Honest, true, caring! Imagine that! A human being who is honest, true and caring. kill her, kill her, kill her, threat, threat, threat!!! How dare those as*#^$&@#s!!!!!!!
Years ago it did click about why they hated me. But as I said, the sibling thing ALWAYS threw me for a loop. How and why would they be a part of the jeering too! That really hurt. And made me feel so WEIRD. So betrayed and belittled. No safe haven, no where to turn. Yuck! One little person surrounded by enemy troops, so much anger, rage, hate. I am really shocked any of us got out... And I know that some of us didn't. That is hard, so sad to think about.
This is quite a lightbulb moment for me to see the whole whistle blower thing so clearly laid out by you all, that it is has a label and there is actually documented information on it, I can't wait to go to these site's you all posted, (thanks Stormchild and Mudpup!!!!!!!!!). I LOVE this site and the feeling of being with kindred souls(quite different from childhood, YAY!!!!!)
GEEZ... it has been a long lonely road. And yes, I have had those therapists too!!! Thank goodness we had the self-trust to eventually run, pissed off!!!!
Mudpud, I just have to say again. Your posts are just so smack on with what is real, true, and good. And you are hilarious!! I find myself laughing out loud and crying out loud at the same time, because you are so dead on and so certain about how WRONG and full of sh#% these N's are!!!! I love the idea of the two N's battling it out!!!!! They can all have each other and get off tearing at each other for lifetimes.
Keep going Dazza. You have added to greatly to my healing and my life by sharing your experience and insights!
Menow
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Thanks for sharing, Menow. I truly hope that the positivity and support you will find here will continue your healing process.
I am sure that your post rings so true for lots of us on this board.
The feeling of being hated by your sibs...was it a consistent feeling or did it vary? In other words, was it always You vs. Them?
I am curious to hear because in my family dynamic, alliances were always in flux. You never knew where you stood with anything. Promises were rarely kept, and the inter-action between us was so messed up.
For instance, one minute my father would tell me that my mother is loony and that he would get a divorce in a second (she would say the same to me). An hour later, they were both ganging up on me over something - a united front. Oh, I was about 8 when this behavior started.
Same thing happened w/ my sisters...I could never trust them and still don't.
I've come to learn that with N's you never know where you stand. It is like walking on a minefield without a map. One false me and BOOM!
Another thing that I've realized is that N's memories are very "selective."
Menow, do you think that your sibs would remember how they acted towards you? I wonder.
My mother told my ex-girlfriend (who she didn't approve of) of just a few months in a fit of rage that she hoped that her ovaries dried up and that she could never have kids or sex with me. Plus, she added a flurry of insults that I won't even go into here because they are just too terrible to mention.
A little over four years later when I began speaking to them again, I aksed my mother about why she said what she said. I had to ask because there was a point when I feared that I would always be remembered by my ex as the boyfriend with the crazy mother...but I have let that feeling go, because I had no control over my mother's actions.
My mother said she had no memory of what she said. Incredible!
:D
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Hi Dazza,
I guess I never realized you were a guy before. Welcome, there aren't too many of us here.
Too right, they have selective memories. But I'm convinced its willfull.
They remember allright, they just pretend to forget the inconvenient stuff.
I think a lot of siblings act like Ns but really aren't; they're just imitating the behavior they think they needed to survive as kids. I think they're enmeshed and codependent and all that stuff, but I suspect, a lot of them, were they to be removed from the unhealthy system they're in, would show some signs of normalcy, unlike a real NPD.
Of course for the normal sibling it doesn't make much difference whether they're really crackers or just playing along to survive; they still treat us like dirt.
Menow,
You're too kind. Thanks for swelling my head up a little. :oops:
Oh, and incidentally the website I provided was originally provided by Stormy also, so you should really thank her for all of the websites.
Credit where it is due. She's a tremendous resource for this board. :wink: :D
mudpup
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Hi Dazza and welcome.
Sorry, I'm way late coming in on this post. I have been a little lax lately.
On Father's Day I will think about my Dad who passed away two years ago. He was a very good man. We all miss him very much.
My children will visit with their N Dad on Father's Day. I'm sure when they get older they will be in your shoes and will be avoiding him at all costs. For now, they have to go. :(
Mud and Mum,
Maybe you and Mia could get your exes all steamed up about who the biggest N is. Maybe start a grudge match.
You know like Godzilla versus Gamera. One behemoth jerk from the west coast; one colossal ass from the east, the ground trembling under their big cheesey feet. Grappling for supremacy they both fall (in slow motion of course) into the sea and sink to the bottom.
Of course the problem with that is Godzilla never seems to croak.
That is so funny. Freakin' Godzilla never dies! I guess it's Ok if my X N was Godzilla. But please promise that I would at least be able to watch Godzilla get beat up pretty badly. He needs a good a$$ whooping!
Thanks for the laugh.
Mia
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Mudpup,
You are welcome for the kind words.
And I did credit and thank Stormchild along with you. Am I going crazy?!?!?!?!?
Just to clarify, you did point out a site while crediting stormchild. Then she referred to another site later on. I thanked both of you. Is that so wrong????
Sorry, I am a little hyper sensitive towards what you wrote, I felt a little chastised that I didn't do my gratitude perfectly. I got alot of that from my N family. Not perfect, get it right, do it over, not perfect, you should do it this way not that way..... and on and on and on.
Menow
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Hi Menow,
I'm sorry. I didn't mean for it to sound like chastisement at all.
I wasn't criticizing you in the slightest.
I just didn't want to get the credit for something that Stormy had provided and I had just piggy backed on.
Yikes, I'm especially sorry if I sounded like your N family.
I really didn't mean to. It wasn't really even directed at you. I just wanted to let others know where the link came from.
I guess i should have been able to see your perspective a little better.
Sorry if I upset you. I have a tendency to put my foot in my mouth. Me and GFN have contests to see who is best at it. :roll: :oops: :?
mudpup
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Hey, Menow: I think you can trust Mudpup. He is usually very self-effacing (sp?) and not at all n ish. I simply took his meaning as him not wanting to get too much credit, that's all. Hope you can see that, too.
As far as you going nuts....not a chance....unless we all are!!!
How's the weekend going? Hope it's lots of "chillin" and bad food items......
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Thanks mum,
You're a chump...errr, I meant champ, sorry. :wink: :lol:
You know I'm just a-joshin' ya.
Have a good Saturday evening all, and congratulations on your 'quoting' success on the other thread, mum. Brigid gives much more succinct instructions than me.
mudpup
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Well, since I did a Hellmark card for Mother's Day, I guess I should try to come up with one for Dear Old Dad.
Let's see...
Dear Dad, this day is just for you.
But then, you think the rest are, too.
So celebrate wholeheartedly,
But stay the he** away from me!
Not as good as the mother's day rhyme, but then my mom was the N, my dad the N-abler. So let's try another one.
Dear Dad, when I was very small,
You never helped me out at all.
You let my mother bully me;
Her meanness you refused to see.
Now you are turning old and gray
And wonder why I stay away.
You ought to ask why I would bother
To visit an unloving father.
There, that should just about cover it ;-)
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Brilliant and hilarious, as usual, Stormy!!!
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You are quite a poet! I can't stop laughing!!!
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Mudpup,
Oh thank you. I really appreciate your acknowledgement of my feelings and your openness to see it from my perspective. And as I said, I am a bit hyper sensitive to anything that sounds like someone is angry at me for doing something wrong. I can see that you did not intend that at all. I think it is hard for me without the voice inflection and body language to read into words, especially with all the sh*& I/we have all been through. So thank you for clarifying what you intended, and caring about my feelings! :)
Stormchild,
I LOVED your hellmark poems!!! Wow, you are good!!! And, if it's okay, I would love to dedicate the first one to my dad who was the N and the others to my Mom who was the N-abler. Actually though it may be the other way around, it is a tough call. Underneath my mom could have been the evil N disguised as a victimy N-abler so she would never get busted and my dad the victim taking on the role as the N. Either way you toss it, it's an ugly mess and they get each other.
Oh, and thank you for the website links you have provided in other posts.... WOW!
Menow
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Thanks mum & Dazza. Have you folks heard of the author Suzette Haden Elgin? She recommends writing verses as a creative & constructive way of releasing pain. Works for me... glad to share.
Hi Menow,
Hang in there, we are all fragile in different places. I've had similar difficulties, believe me.
I did a search for you and found the old post about the mother's day card. Feel free to use anything you like, these are for anyone and everyone who can use them! :P
Guest1 wrote: "To the poster with the idea about the N Mother's Day card company - try to get 'Hallmark' to start a special day for those abused and trampled upon by those that should have loved, cherished, nourished and adored them."
Stormchild wrote: "Let's start our own. We can call it "Hellmark".
Sample verse:
"To Mother, on your special day:
I'm glad that you are far away;
And just because you're such a pill,
I wish that you were farther still."
Remember - it's the thought that counts"
N-joy!
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Thanks Stormchild for the support and another GREAT poem! :lol:
Menow
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Stormy - love the card comment about the N-enabler father!
As for me - my Dad is now in a nursing home and free of my N-Mother. Talking with him (over the phone) is now a joy. He doesn't always have to pass the phone to my Mom. I will be able to talk with him on Father's Day without Mom's presence in the room.
My poor N-Mom gets frustrated by the minute because she's living by herself. I think my Dad is so happy to get away from her - and FINALLY - after 51 years of marriage able to be loose of it all.
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I completely ozoned Father's Day 2005 and I knew in advance I would. I gave gifts to only two people. Then I dissociated the entire weekend and forgot what day it was until 2 weeks had passed.
On the 6th of July I found out why. He's not my father.