Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Guest2 on June 10, 2005, 02:28:34 AM
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This is not only for women. If your parent was N, what did that do to your opinion of your attractiveness? During that critical teen period? When finding a mate? Now?
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I am considered pretty but it has been hard for me to believe it. I was a chubby child with a mass of kinky, curly hair. My Mother was a classic blond beauty. I was the polar opposite. I never felt that good looking until my recent years when I accepted that I am and nurtured it. I lost weight around 14 and felt more attractive. My mother still nags me about the clothes that I wear and how I look at times. I know it is about her but somtimes it still annoys me.
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Most of the time I feel pretty and I've got friends and a husband that will tell me the same. But what stands out in my mind the most is that growing up, any time anyone would give me a compliment about my looks, dear Nmother would follow it with, "don't tell her that, it will go to her head" and a sneer. If I am feeling good or enjoying my looks, I'm told I'm vain.
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When I was a teenager I was tall and skinny, however I developed my breasts pretty young and they stopped growing when I was about 13, so they aren't really that big now. My mother always complained about the way I looked. Guys used to tease me, they would call me a toothpick with two big bumps. I was never overly concerned with how I looked. I was washed and clean and my hair brushed. I wore mostly jeans and baggy shirts, still do some. However I am fully capable of getting all dressed up.
As I got older the rest of me filled out some. When I was about 25 I saw a guy from school who had to take a double back to look at me and then asked if I was really me ... When I was 30 my mother decided for my birthday that she was going to give me a make-over as a present since I didn't know how to do my make-up (according to her). We went to the cosmetic store and the lady pretty much put my make-up on like I do. My mom then said something really needed to be done with my eyebrows and the lady said "OH NO, they are just beautiful how they are!" Then the lady said to my mom, why don't we try some of this make-up on you. Well my mom hesitantly agreed and had her make-up taken off (I went there without make-up on). She put it on totally different than my mom does and it looked good, but my mom didn't think so. My mom bought me some of the make-up, and that was fine with me. I don't use make-up all the time and I don't use a lot. I still have the three eyeshadows and the blush, but the blush fell and broke up some. The facial make-up dried up a long time ago, I didn't use that much anyways.
I found that whole incident hilarious. The reaction of the cosmetic lady was the best birthday present I could have, the make-up was just a bonus. Like usual it all "flew over" my mother's head.
LM
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Everyone is pretty in their own way :D
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Hi all:
Everyone is pretty in their own way.
Great point Denise!!
(I was going to post....."Well, I'm pretty silly...does that count??" But I like your comment much better!!)
:D :D
GFN
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I think I worried so much how the outside looked, that I ignored the inside. Not that I was bad on the inside because I do think I am a good person, but that I didn't pay attention to things my gut was telling me.
As a kid I was skinny and had very little shape. I was never told by anyone that I was pretty back then. As I matured, I have become more attractive and I think I look better than ever now. I have been overly conscious about my appearance, at least as an adult, probably because I was hoping that it would make my husband love me more and pay more attention to me. Since the beginning of the separation, it has gotten worse. I think this is because it was one of the few things I had within my control and it gave me something on which to focus.
I don't think I will ever not care how I look, but I am trying to give it much less focus now and concentrate on what goes on inside.
This is not an easy thing to talk about. :oops:
Brigid
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Everyone is pretty in their own way
Denise
Yes. I think this with the top of my head, but the bottom of my heart thinks I could possibly earn love by looking different.
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This is not an easy thing to talk about.
Brigid
Thank you for talking about it anyway. I think there are some N issues around looks and need to hear what happened to other people to maybe identify which messages I got were normal and which not. I don't even know.
I changed my name because it seemed too generic.
Formerly Guest2
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Wow, American women....get your fear factor faces on!!!
This is a huge question, and maybe it's global, but in America, we are bombarded by what the "standard" of pretty is.
It's amazing to me, really.
I did not have N parents, and always felt pretty as a child....until teen years, when I knew I was pretty, but felt the standards were messed up. Screw them!
But then I have to ask: if others (not loving parents) hadn't told me I was pretty, would I still believe it or have said" screw those impossible standards"? I must meet the standards somewhat.
My parents were both "good looking", so why should I get credit for genetics.....? Or why should anyone?
I guess them being able to afford braces for me helped, but does that change the real pretty?
My own children are "good looking". When I was divorced and she was a preschooler, men would hit on me by telling my daughter how beautiful she was .....so I told her to say "and I'm smart too!!" Set a few jerks on thier ear...so funny (and she is way smart!!!)
My daughter went through a pre pubescent "chubby" phase, which took a lot of coaching through on my part, as her dad and stepmom, who are mean and stupid, would send her messages of "fat" girl, etc. It took a lot for me not to choke him at this point! I just told her what I knew to be medically true about her body at this point, and to NOT talk about her looks in anything but a positive manner at all.
Anyway, she has typically moved through such a stage, and is now, suddenly a "swan" and now her dad is NOW freaking out about how "mature" she suddenly looks. (what a stupid loser). Basically, she can never be good enough for him.
Bottom line, she is kind and loving, and THAT is what makes a person beautiful..
How many "beautiful" (physically) people do we all know, who are such mean, nasty folks, that the beauty is totally lost , and they are actually ugly to us?
My son, who is tall and handsome, told me he though his girlfriend was the most beautiful girl in the world. (awww) (and yes, she is "pretty").
He said, "I wonder if I'm good looking enough for her." I told him that I hesitate to tell him these things, as I don't want to creep him out, but my colleagues, after meeting him, say "oh, my Gosh, your kid is georgeous!" and so do his sister's friends. That is the truth, and that did satisfy him....but I asked him to notice that the more he got to know his girlfriend, the more beautiful she becomes. He got all starry eyed and said....yeah......
I am currently pissed off at my lack of motivation to get back to my skinny bikini body. I want it, but I don't feel like doing the work to get it.
In ohter words, I don't want it that bad. Chocolate is calling me.
So there you have it, the pretty dissertation.
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I’m not pretty in a girly-way. I wouldn’t want to be. I don’t look like the back-end of a bus either. I don’t think much about attracting men, or women. I worry more about looking ‘normal’ (not eccentric).
“Earn love”? Love is reciprocal. Value me and I will value you. Be honest with me and I will be honest with you. Tell me your secrets, show me your vulnerabilities – this is what builds trust and love. How old are you Formerly Guest2? Are you still chasing passion, a knight on a white charger, happily ever after? I did (mother said it happened). It's all lies, dangerous lies to stop us being happy (happy people aren't great consumers and our economy depends upon having consumers).
Looking different might earn you lustful looks. It might earn you envy (often disguised as admiration). It might also encourage people to not see past your body and if they do that, they’ll be tempted to treat you as an object, instead of a person.
I was treated as an object in childhood. I treat my body as an object and I don’t particularly value it. I have trouble with this. How about you? What messages did you get?
INTJ - how about you?
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Portia: you're funny (back end of a bus!).
I think you are right on with your thinking: ie: healthy about it.
My 2nd husband was all about looks. Very, very vain...and always telling me how so and so looked, how young women have such great bodies, etc. He would also compliment me on my looks almost to the point where I would say> how about ME....not my looks. He never got it.
I was very flattered to be considered beautiful by someone for whom beauty meant so much (after being told I was "allright" by a man who cheated regularly). But it was a hollow prize and his admiration was never about the REAL ME....
Anyway, turns out he has no REAL him, just the shell and a lot of hidden (must be horrible) stuff he refuses to look at. He is his package. That's all there is, and when I wanted to get to know the rest....he didn't.
We are divorced. He is with a beautiful (even)younger woman now....who is fresh off a divorce from a real N (sounds familiar).
So if you go into things looking to "attract" with your looks....well, you got that right, Portia.
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This is very painful for me to write about. I am not at all attractive, and my mother was unmerciful to me throughout my growing up. As I have remarked before, she used to cry because it was so difficult to be my mother--and believe me, that was entirely about the way I looked. Otherwise, I was a pretty good deal--obedient and high-achieving.
I withstood incredible bullying and taunting as a child, to the point that one little monster actually walked up to me on the playground, announced that her father said she could hit me, and did. Hard enough to knock me down. My mother would not intervene; she said I had better get used to it.
I think it would be ridiculous not to admit that all this has had a big effect on who I am as an adult. I am afraid of people in general, but women in particular. I believe it is only a matter of time until my husband leaves me for an attractive and fertile woman, and I can't say that I would blame him. I don't talk about it much, because I don't want to be so needy. I just try to build up some reserves of strength against the day when it will happen. I try very hard to be "appropriate" and inconspicuous; I walk looking at the ground, dress in dark colors, avoid eye contact, etc. The cosmetics industry might never have been invented, as far as I'm concerned. Most of the time, I feel that I'm not really a woman. None of the experiences that seem to define womanhood have happened to me, except the painful ones. I had a wedding, mostly because I thought it would give my mother some pleasure to be "mother of the bride" for at least one of her three daughters, but it was a quiet disaster, an event to be endured rather than enjoyed. When I saw myself in my dress for the first time, my only reaction was, "Get this off me." I kept repeating, over and over, "I have no right." My mother was very angry at me. I haven't looked at my wedding pictures once, although we just celebrated our 12th anniversary.
In recent years, I've also come to believe that my attitude toward my appearance has affected how I feel about medical care. I haven't been to the doctor or dentist in years, mostly because I'm both ashamed of how I look and indifferent to myself as a physical being. In other words, I find it rather difficult to take care of this body I hate so much.
I am trying to change this, mostly because I'm tired of hating myself. But it is extremely hard. Forty years of habit builds a very thick wall.
I can't write any more.
daylily
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was jealous of me and my sister and our looks/ figures when we grew up. SHe even lost a load of weight when we hit puberty, and made it like she was competing somehow...
It did us all a favour though. She had an affair and went off with the man, and wasn't part of our lives after.
My father has loads of problems, was neurotic, controlling and clingy, but I swear when she left it was like the whole household did a collective sigh of relief.
I've often wondered if I have PTSD from those 16 years lived in that hostile atmosphere she created where ever she went ( oh yes, she caused trouble everywhere she was )
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Awwwww ((((((((((((Daylily)))))))))))):
I am afraid of people in general, but women in particular. I believe it is only a matter of time until my husband leaves me for an attractive and fertile woman, and I can't say that I would blame him.
Maybe, he sees beneath your external appearance? Maybe he loves you.....not your body? Daylily, you are soooo beautiful!! I mean it with all of my heart!! Inside. The inside that you are letting out here. It may seem awful and painful and ugly to you, but to me, it's the most lovely thing. What's in your heart is not the least bit ugly, Daylily, It's just those nasty experiences tricking you into believing that your body is the be all and end all of you.
It isn't!! It's only skin deep.
I once knew a gorgeous look girl. She was model material!! There was a gas leak in her appartment and she lit up a ciggarette! Kaboom!!!
80% of her body was burnt badly. She was soooo lucky to survive!! She endured the horrible of physical pain and many, many reconstructive surgeries, in attempts to fix the damage. It was unfixable, as far as exterior beauty is concerned. She was the scariest looking human being I have ever seen!! Or I thought so at first.
Then I got to know her. She told me her story. She told me about her looks before the accident and showed me pictures. She told me she was a pediatric nurse now. When I asked her why she chose that profession she answered:
"Adults are such cowards. They just give me frightened looks or avoid eye contact. They can't handle the way I look. But children.......children come right out and ask: 'What's the mattter with your face?'. They're so honest and not afraid to be honest. "
She was one of the most beautiful people I have known. I don't see the scars. I don't see the supposed ugliness. All I see in her is lovliness.
She also used to raise her hand, as if to be kissed, and say:
"kiss my a**"
She told me: "They used the skin off my butt to cover my hands".
What a happy person!! What an inspiration! What she sustained and transformed into something good.
I find it rather difficult to take care of this body I hate so much.
Please don't hate your body. Please believe that inside your body is a good and wonderful, lovable, sweet, honest gentle person!! What on earth could be more beautiful than that??
((((((((Daylily)))))))))
GFN
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((((((Daylily))))))
I am sorry that my post may have sounded flippant. I do not know anything about "pretty", I realize.
I cannot see you, and I have always thought of you as a beautiful person. My image of you, because of your post name, and your words, is one of warmth and deeply natural beauty. I am sorry you don't see that about yourself when you consider "pretty".
I cannot believe a mother would ever, ever, under any circumstance, not think and tell her own child that they were the most wonderful, beautiful creature ever to walk the earth. I know so many "unnatractive" people (by some "standard", I guess) who are extremely attractive in so many ways as to the point that their physical appearance takes on so much more meaning than those of an arbitrary societal standard of beauty.
Perhaps this is because they were fed with loving, positive mothering...I do not know. I do know, that what your mother did is unexcusable.
You are married. I am sorry you think that is not real in some way. I would be willing to bet that man sees beauty when he is with you.
But your self image, it seems, is not only about how you look. You may feel that is where it is centered, or came from, and it may well be so.
But do you feel you could heal? I think you could if you want to.
Are you in therapy?
I heard someone say once: 'People think I'm handsome because I act handsome". It was true. (and once you got to know him, he became less so,as he was without empathy). But the "whistle a happy tune", or "fake it til you make it" mentality is about attitude, not appearances and in that way, it may work to some extent.
You have let us get to know you here on the board as a beautiful soul. I doubt any of us could ever see you differently in "person". It doesn't sound like you believe that, though.
I hope you find help with this. I doubt this "hiding" is helping you have a happy life. Sending you love.
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Daylily,
Your post broke my heart. I'm so sorry your mother couldn't see the beautiful person we "see" when we read your eloquent posts.
I hope your husband married you for more reasons than just appearance. He probably truly values the wonderful human being you are and will continue to love you no matter what. But you need to start loving and valuing you. I do hope you are getting some therapy or would consider doing so. That injured little girl inside needs to be healed and you need some help with that.
((((((((daylily)))))))))))
Blessings,
Brigid
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Great topic! Thanks for the idea, Formerly Guest2.
We are all familiar with the old saying, "beauty is in the eye of the beholder". I thought a lot about the logic behind those words. I used to agree with it. Now, I define beauty differently. I think beauty is really in the eye of the beholded. I think if you feel beautiful, then you are beautiful. Eventually, ppl will come to see how beautiful you are based on your projection of yourself.
IMO, beauty is the radiance one projects forth from oneself.
It doesn't make any sense to me to give someone else the authority to define my beauty. That's a lot of power to give to someone else, IMO. Just b/c someone doesn't think I'm beautiful doesn't have anything to do with my beauty. In retrospect, just b/c someone think I'm beautiful, doesn't make me a beautiful person, based on their opinion. I think physical appearance is only one compartment of the whole category of beauty. So what if someone doesn't find me beautiful. To me, that just means he/she is visually impaired. They can only see in parts, not in whole. Who has the shortcoming now??
Do you give the right for someone else to tell you when you are hungry, or when you are sad, or when you are happy? And you wouldn't feel those things until they give you permission to do so. That's silly, right? Now, why should we allow others to tell us whether we are beautiful or not. Why do we need their permission to define the very essence of who we are?
GFN, thanks for sharing the story about the beautiful girl who happened to be burned. That was qiute a beautiful and inspiring story.
Daylily,
Okay, realistically, you feel that you are not beautiful. And it seems to me that no matter what other ppl tell you otherwise, you find it hard to accept it. But, could you accept the fact that we truly see the radiance that shines forth through your words? Which is a reflection of your beauty. That beautiful part of you that we see so much of. IMO, physical appearance is just one small part of the whole picture. Why let one part overshadow the rest of your beautiful parts? It breaks my heart to read what you shared about you looking down or looking away from others, as if to think it's your fault for the way you appear physically to others and thus feel ashame about your physical appearance. How can it be your fault if others can't see the other parts of you? Personally, I think it's their fault for seeing only one part. Maybe, it's them who needs to be ashamed.
Butterfly
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“Earn love”? Love is reciprocal. Value me and I will value you. Be honest with me and I will be honest with you. Tell me your secrets, show me your vulnerabilities – this is what builds trust and love.
INTJ - how about you?
Yes I'm INTJ. The description for INTJ did ring true. I do need to always understand why. And I married someone who not only does not want to discuss why something happened, but will not even acknowledge that it did happen!
Yes of course, you are correct about love, at least as far as I know. But what do I know anyway? I've never even seen a healthy relationship at close range!
I have never dared to be good looking because then I would be competing with my mom. Now in her seventies, she is still very preoccupied with her looks and does not miss an opportunity to make comments on my or my sister's clothes, hair, my sister's weight, makeup, etc. Not nice comments. If they are complementary, they are along the lines of, "Finally your hair looks like something. You must have used that product I told you about. See?"
I feel I have never been allowed to be pretty and I am going to be old before I even get a chance. I'm in my 40s. I've had 2 kids and now the body will never be the same. My husband is looking at perfect women on internet porn sites. No one is looking at me and it seems no one ever will. My mom is not relinquishing the title so I will never be crowned! My husband used to think I was attractive, I thought I could at least count on that, but now even that is gone. Drat those hoes!
I treat my body as an object and I don’t particularly value it. I have trouble with this. How about you? What messages did you get?
Oooooh Portia! Look after your body! Your body is not just a sack of skin carting your brain around! It is you! There is no big wall between your body and your mind. They are closely joined. Get thee to a naturalist and cleanse thy vessel! Also, don't you like that endorphin drug you get when you exercise? They say it is as close to chocolate as your body can make, and it's all freeeeeee!
I do not want attention from strange men. That makes me nervous. I do want to feel cherished above allothers by one person and admired by a few more, whom I respect, from a short distance. Maybe I am looking at this backwards. When I see couples where the guy obviously loves his wife, he is looking at her lovingly and touching her. I am so envious! I guess in my twisted mind, I think that if I were better looking, my husband would do that. But maybe he never would. Looks are nto the issue. But can I please feel sexy once before I die?
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I was treated as an object in childhood.
Portia, what does this mean?
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Oh Daylily, hugs and hugs! (((((((((((((((((you)))))))))))))))))
Thank you for sharing that. it must have been so hard. Such cruel things are done in the name of beauty.
There is so much in your post that has me in an uproar, I am not sure I can respond well. If my post does not hit the spot, please just take away that I am feeling for you and think that all the things you think are wrong, are wrong, and many more besides.
I am not at all attractive
Don't be too sure about that. It is amazing, but when we look into the mirror, we see what is in our minds, not what light is reflected from our faces and bodies.
she used to cry because it was so difficult to be my mother--and believe me, that was entirely about the way I looked. Sounds like she went to great lengths to convince you that you were ugly and then blame you for not looking like...what? Are you biologically related? Don't you have any looks in common (not that you would want that) with your mom? This sounds really fishy to me.
Otherwise, I was a pretty good deal--obedient and high-achieving.
I guess in that context obedient got extra credit. Is it still on your list of your good qualities?
I withstood incredible bullying and taunting as a child, to the point that one little monster actually walked up to me on the playground, announced that her father said she could hit me, and did.
That little monster is probably in lockdown right now. Let it go.
My mother would not intervene; she said I had better get used to it. This is so wrong I am not sure how to respond without using any curse words.
I am afraid of people in general, but women in particular. I believe it is only a matter of time until my husband leaves me for an attractive and fertile woman, and I can't say that I would blame him.
I have the same fear. It has subsided some since I recognize that I feel I cannot compete with any woman because my father ignored me totally in favor of my sister. I was angry and could not understand. I attributed it to a mysterious invisible attraction that all women had, that I did not have. If another woman tried to step in, I bowed out. Even now I still feel that way somewhat, and do not even try to compete on my merits with any woman anywhere. All I can do that I know is effective is to make my husband afraid of what I might do if I find out he cheated - leave, take everything, tell his mom - and I have had a lifetime of threats and nastiness to learn this from. Oooops! Back to you.
Give other women a chance. Not all of them are faithless Jezebels who will snatch your hubby without a backward glance. You may not realize it, but you are objectifying these women also by thinking that. They are not multifaceted individuals with issues and strong and weak points like everyone else, but a fertile pherenome-emitting critter who will emerge from the depths of the ocean and drag down your hubby, never to be seen again. You can tell who is who. Get some support from your sisters! Don't lump them all together in the gutter!
In recent years, I've also come to believe that my attitude toward my appearance has affected how I feel about medical care. I haven't been to the doctor or dentist in years, mostly because I'm both ashamed of how I look and indifferent to myself as a physical being. In other words, I find it rather difficult to take care of this body I hate so much.
Do you believe in God? In nature? Do you think that God made such a giant mistake with you? Did mother nature flub up in your case? You are a woman, by definition. You are a part of the definition of womanhood, like every other woman on earth. You are woman!
If you would like to start taking better care of yourself, start small. Just do one thing. If you can find a good Gyn, that can be a good start, and you can talk about lots of things. Maybe that would be a good woman to trust. Or maybe your dental issues are more pressing.
I have the same thing. I didn't go to the dentist for 5 years. Finally I went and it feels so good. The doctor and dentist don't care if you're a beauty queen. They only care about hygiene. Shower and brush and go. What motivated me, was that I wanted to be healthy and live long for my children. You can find a reason.
About the husband. If he has not been complaining, why do you think he is going to up and split? I do not want to be scary, but isn't it statistically more likely that once you start dressing and looking great, that is more of a risk because you are changing and your husband may not like it?
Maybe you feel like the marriage is bogus because you did it for your mom. Back up and start all over with the courtship. Lure your husband to you for the right reasons and let him lure you. Rewrite your love story. You deserve a love partner so don't keep trying to give him away!
You have a long way to go so just take teeny, weeny steps. Get a haircut, because then you will not have to do anything new every day, such as put on makeup. Nothing too radical. Then make appointments with the doctor. Then the dentist. Buy a pink top. Listen girl, if men can dress up and be attractive women, I know we can!
Ok I can see I'm in radical rabid fixit mode. I'll shut up and let others speak.
Formerly Guest2
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Listen girl, if men can dress up and be attractive women, I know we can!
Tears in my eyes funny.
Mostly because its so true.
Incidentally daylily, what Formerly Guest2 wrote is true; about how you appear to yourself may not be how you appear to others. You may only think of yourself as unattractive because that was what was drilled into your head by your crazy jealous 'mom'.
I've known some very physically attractive women who were convinced they were ugly by the sick people who raised them.
Besides as others have said, you're beautiful inside. It shows.
My wife is very pretty, but thats not why I love her. Its because she has a beautiful soul. If she were disfigured, as the gal GFN knew was, I wouldn't like it, but I'd still love her, I'd probably love her more.
Good looks might create lust.
A good heart creates love.
And no I didn't get that off of some smarmy greeting card. Sounds like it though, huh? :P Its so saccharine I could hardly bear to write it, but it sounds pretty accurate.
mudpup
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"Adults are such cowards. They just give me frightened looks or avoid eye contact. They can't handle the way I look. But children.......children come right out and ask: 'What's the mattter with your face?'. They're so honest and not afraid to be honest. "
And they know how to see beauty, no matter what it looks like.
Daylily, you are a tall and shining angel, with wings that brush the sky and a beauty that seizes the heart. Now. Here. Already. We see it. We know it. Believe us.
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Thanks, everybody. I didn't mean to hijack the thread, and I hope I haven't.
By way of gratitude, or explanation, or something, here's a poem I wrote earlier this year.
Why I Won't Send a Picture
However you imagine me, I am
different. Leave it there, and think
of Julia Roberts in Valentino:
a grosgrain ribbon halving her
from smile to hem. I’m like that
white flame between the partners
who tango, what twists and shimmies
in brazen, satisfied solitude, then
disappears on the downbeat.
I could tell you I’m Amish,
invent an elegant lie about the soul
and who can expose it. I won’t.
Instead, I’ll tell you what happened
when I tried my wedding gown on:
I sobbed, I have no right. I couldn’t
wait to molt. My mother whispered
gussets, soothed that seams could hide
under soutache. I wore it anyway,
But I never look at the pictures.
I keep a pillow on my bed
sewn from the original sleeves
(which did not conceal enough).
Sometimes I pet the satin and think
of our graceless box step, how I swayed
toward his reassurance, how I hold
myself a little apart from him,
even now, because I want to stay
upright when he proves me wrong,
or right. Either way, I seem to fall.
Look, if you must have an image,
at anything that twists away
from what tries to hold it: a flag
and its pole, a child and her mother,
a war and its soldiers. I will write
tomorrow, send you a list of ten
books I love. It will have to suffice
that I'll tell you everything about how I see.
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Daylily,
That was not written by an ugly woman.
It was written by a very beautiful one.
mudpup
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Day Lily,
I too am tormented by your mother's treatment, the way you were treated at school etc. I hope you will take all the caring that is here and lock it inside your heart to give you strength everyday.
I believe beauty really is an attitude. It is not always about the right dress, face, hair, makeup. I can see it in myself. When I feel confident I glow. I look like a whole nother person when I am scared, down, depressed, angry.
I hope you will start letting that light inside you shine to others and yourself. I think you will more see the beauty that you have and also see more beauty around you.
As striver for fitness, I hope you will tend to yourself with the right doctors, dentists etc. They can help with confidence by assuring you have health which will also make you feel better about yourself.
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Thanks, everybody. I didn't mean to hijack the thread, and I hope I haven't.
Yes, go ahead and take the thread. Take it wherever. I liked your poem. Tell us if you do anything like get a haircut or buy a wonderbra. Tell us your outrageous stories so we can shout down your mom and cancel out her malignant influence on you. (If that is ok with you.)
Whaaat! My new name is uncreative? If you must know, I was going to be "the poster formerly known as guest2" but it wouldn't fit in the box. So now I'm thinking. Sea snail? red-eyed tree frog? caiman? so many possibilities.
Until I feel my real muse, I remain,
Formerly Guest2
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mudpuppy, what's wrong with you ;), there ain't nothing wrong with the name "Formerly Guest2". I could become crocodile or alligator if you would like :). Isn't GFN an acronym for "Guest for Now"?
daylily, my heart really goes out to you. I don't know if you are pretty and just don't realize it or if you are not, however I do know that you are beautiful, and beauty which is more than skin deep is so much better than just being pretty. Like GFN I've known people who were disfigured from accidents. I volunteered as a teenager in a rehabilitation hospital where people who had accidents stayed for months to get therapy. The courage and self-worth of some of the people there were a total inspiration to me. We love you ... just the way you are :).
LM
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Hi all:
Yes, go ahead and take the thread.
FG2............generous, sharing. More signs of beauty.
I mentioned this in the other thread but maybe I'll double mention for the heck of it!!
How about the name: "Spunky"???
It means: spirited and is an informal synonnym for brave.
Daylily:
That was a lovely poem written by a lovely woman. It makes your beauty so much clearer.
...how I swayed
toward his reassurance, how I hold
myself a little apart from him,
even now, because I want to stay
upright when he proves me wrong,
or right. Either way, I seem to fall...
Sway back Daylily. Hold closer to him, not apart. Big question coming up. Answer if you feel comfy, if not, that's ok.
Has he given you reason not to trust him?
GFN
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How about the name: "Spunky"???
It means: spirited and is an informal synonnym for brave.
Also for other things!
I think I'll keep looking.
Plucky doesn't sound too bad.
I'll try it out.
Plucky
Hmmm. A bit peterpannish. But cute....
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FG2............generous, sharing. More signs of beauty.
Thank you. I am storing up all the nice things you all say in my heart. They replace the holes left when I stop pretending that my childhood was normal and rip those experiences out and discard them.
People were talking about touch on another thread. Does anyone remember whether or how much they were touched (good touches) by an N parent? I can remember my father touching me only at the end of our summer visit when I basically forced him to hug me. My husband never touches me. If I didn't have kids I'd never get a hug. I can't help feeling repulsive. Has anyone ever had an affair?
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Plucky (that's you, right?),
I was hardly ever touched by my father. My mother hugged me in my adult years when I would return home after being gone for months at a time. Neither of them ever told me they loved me. My x hardly ever touched me--I got the obligatory kiss hello when he came home each day, but no hugs to go with it and it carried no feeling of genuineness (is that a word?). Like you, if it weren't for my kids, I would never get hugged. Although, I do make a point of hugging my girlfriends whenever possible.
I actually did have an affair in my first marriage. I was 24 years old, very unhappy in my marriage and an older, married man (he was 36--not so old to me now :shock: ) showed an interest in me. I have never considered doing anything like that since and certainly do not recommend it as a way to get love and attention. I have seen the devastation and destruction it caused when my x announced his affair--not just to me and the kids, but to all of his family and our friends. It is a no win situation and relationships that start with an affair have a less than 1 percent chance of survival.
I would recommend either trying to fix the relationship you do have, if that is possible, or end it and move on to eventually seek something more satisfying. Both options are very difficult for all concerned, but not doing something will destroy you slowly, but surely.
I wish you well.
Brigid
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I understand your question was probably rhetorical and not specific, but:
Affairs are messy, painful and IMO a real life example of a total loss of faith.
I have one thing to be thankful for in my affair ridden marriage (besides the kids)....that I was not the one belittling and disrespecting myself and others by having the affairs.
I believe the affairs my ex had (and probably still does) simply fuel his horrible self concept at the root of his narcissism.
I would always tell someone to get out of a relationship before starting another one. (If you think you have problems now......)
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Thanks Brigid,
I think you have talked me in off the ledge. I don't have time to have an affair anyway, and look at me! Who would take me.
Since my husband is not ready to acknowledge that we have major problems much less work on them, I have started to think about a plan to leave.
I do have major obstacles, but I'm Plucky, right? I can find a way over them.
If anyone has advice on how to minimize the negative effect on my kids, aged 4 and 6, please come forward.
Plucky Guest2
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I understand your question was probably rhetorical and not specific, but:
Not really.....I mean I was just feeling out a temporary solution to my loneliness and desire to have physical contact. But it sounds like the ugliness will much overshadow any possible benefit.
Thanks Mum for exposing the seamy underbelly of affairs.
BTW where is daylily?
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If anyone has advice on how to minimize the negative effect on my kids, aged 4 and 6, please come forward.
Have you considered marriage counseling? It may be worth a try. I say this without enthusiasm, as both my ex's were not the least bit interested in "working" on staying together, but didn't want a divorce, either (why should they, they had cake and ate it too). But it may be worth something to you....I know my sister and her husband went and it truly saved something wonderful.
If you do decide to divorce:
Try and remember that your children deserve a healthy example of love in their lives. This is what kept me centered. I used to say, "I stayed in the marriage for the kids....then I left the marriage...for the kids". My children (my son was 8, my daughter was 4) did not want to be "divorced", what kid would, but as they grow up in a healthier emotional environment, I have seen with time, that they do indeed deserve at least one happy parent.
It is not your children's marriage, it is yours, so it can't be their decision, but it is your duty to show them how to do life in a healthy way.
My children were young, but I think at any age, taking the responsibility OUT of their hands is essential. I would get them counseling, perhaps. My children's school had a counseling group for "changing families" and that helped them see and talk to other kids going through the same thing. It helped with the message that I was trying to reassure them about : this has NOTHING to do with you. It's not your fault, it's an adult situation, not to worry. We both love you the same as always. I used to say to my kids: you are so lucky, to have two homes where you are loved best of all (although it may not be true at dad's....I was the one who made sure they at least heard this).
Also, and boy this is tough, no matter what you feel about their dad, .....they have half his DNA. He is a full half of who they are, and to insult him or bad mouth him is a punch in the stomach of your children, personally.
This is something I need to remember ALL the time, as my ex is a bully and a pretty horrible person.........but he is thier current dad, and my EX
husband.
They have the right to come to terms with thier father and have thier own relationship with him, unfettered by my opinion. Unless there is overt abuse (and unfortunatley, emotional abuse is impossible to get the courts to consider) it's pretty important to "support" thier loving their dad. If your ex is a real a** like mine, they will figure that out in time, without your help.
If they get your opinion (your dad is a jerk!) YOU will be seen, instantly, as someone who is not as safe as you once were, and it will come back to bite you!
I got on my little soap box, sorry. Just remember, they only need one good parent.
Take care......keep your loving intention.
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I was also thinking about your not feeling pretty. I knew a couple once, where the woman was not pretty, by almost any "standard", but this man loved her soooooo very much, and as a result of his love, she was confident and within seconds of meeting her, her facial irregularities dissapeared and the beauty of her as a person took over. Everyone would instantly forget that at first glance, she was "odd" looking.
I did not feel pretty with my first husband. I used to, before him, and he robbed that from me daily. Told me I was useless, boring, in so many ways. I was floored when we divorced and suddenly I felt attractive again. I wonder if this "lack" in your marriage isn't a huge contibutor to your defining yourself as unnattractive.......
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Thank you mum for spending time helping me. All the people here are my lifeline.
Have you considered marriage counseling?
We did go last year. Once the T peeled back the onion a bit she recommended separate Ts for us and H was not going along. We limped on for a few sessions but then ended it. I think our T was angry that we had not followed her recommendation and drove us away.
I know my sister and her husband went and it truly saved something wonderful.
We've never actually had anything wonderful. My husband pressed me into marriage when I was depressed and needed support after I fell apart when my father died. I've always felt like our relationship was built on a lie and he has never wanted to listen to my concerns about it.
If you do decide to divorce:
Try and remember that your children deserve a healthy example of love in their lives.
I know they do. But I am certainly not qualified to even recognize that, much less guarantee it to my children. I would love to know that we will have that in our lives but it is a crap shoot. All I can do is try to eliminate the bad examples. I do know how to make real friends, and I want to do that. It is hard to do it in my current state. And my husband hinders me. Did you somehow know that you would find healthy love somewhere?
I would get them counseling, perhaps...
Thanks, these are all good suggestions.
Also, and boy this is tough, no matter what you feel about their dad, .....they have half his DNA
.
Good point. I also need to figure out the relationship with the inlaws, That will be tough. One thing my mother did right, was to avoid badmouthing my dad too much. One thign she did wrong was to expose me too much to the toxic inlaws.
I was also thinking about your not feeling pretty...I did not feel pretty with my first husband. I used to, before him, and he robbed that from me daily. Told me I was useless, boring, in so many ways. I was floored when we divorced and suddenly I felt attractive again. I wonder if this "lack" in your marriage isn't a huge contributor to your defining yourself as unnattractive.......
You are right. Knowing that somehow does not help me much to feel better, though. My husband says, if I ask him, that he thinks I am pretty. But he never notices if I change something (the kids do). He never looks at me or touches me in an affectionate way. Needless to say, sex has been forgotten in this house. Unless asked, he never comments on my appearance. I am always so envious when I see the looks other men give their wives. And as time goes on and age takes its toll, I don't even bother any more trying to look good. I just want to be functional and not stand out.
I was already prepared for this role by my mom who always had to be the pretty one. As a child I was an ugly duckling. When I finally started to bloom as a teen, she made many disparaging comments and told me I was trying to dress like a slut. I was not - in fact I was very self conscious of my new body, but had no idea how to dress it suddenly differently or what I really looked like to others. Then when I was raped it seemed to punish me for how I looked. Her statements seemed to be true, and I deserved it. So now one side of me wants to continue to be invisible, and one side wants attention and knows looks are a way to get it, and one side of me just wants love before I die.
Thank you for reading this. Even if you are just reading and not responding, it is attention for me and honestly I crave that attention.
Plucky Guest2
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Plucky,
Then when I was raped it seemed to punish me for how I looked. Her statements seemed to be true, and I deserved it.
You know now that this isn't true, right? I was sexually assaulted when I was 9 years old and I never really knew how deeply it had affected me until I had a daughter who became that age. I was never able to tell any adult at the time and for years thought that I just deserved it. No human being deserves to be treated so disrespectfully and with such evil intent, much less a child or adolescent. Have you sought counseling for this experience? I would hope so.
I lived in a loveless (although I did not know it) marriage for too many years and accepted the excuses of why we had no intimacy without seeking the real truth. Don't be the fool that I was. You have a right to be loved and cared for and have a complete and fullfilling relationship. If you love him, give it everything you have to try to save it. Therapy can work wonders, if both parties are willing. In my case, I was the only willing party and it does take two. Also, don't discount the affect the rape may be having on your relationship.
I hold you in my prayers.
Blessings,
Brigid
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Did you somehow know that you would find healthy love somewhere?
Hi, Plucky....yes I did. I saw it growing up. I also had it in a former fiance, that I left. He is now my current fiance again. I am really blessed.
I think I was and am incredibly fortunate, and I am grateful every single day.....however, I have seen others overcome many obstacles to finding healthy love (and you certainly have more than your share!) just by believing they deserve it. Considering your past, which by the way, I am very sorry for....((((()))))))) I think it will take time and work, but you seem to be already doing the work.
You sound very focused on that.
I know that healing can only begin with intention. Honestly, that's the seed, and you have already planted it. Keep feeding that intention, and it will grow. I read in your posts, that your already have planted it and it is beginning to develop. Ok, so you are at a tough part now, just pushing the dirt off....but you are still under that ground, getting ready to break through. Stay focused, you deserve love.
I used to say this mantra (I made up) to myself when I was divorcing my first husband: "I am strong, I am beautiful, I am worthy of my dreams."
Consider something like that.....it was like Popeye's spinach for me!!!!
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Pretty old
Pretty tired
Pretty poor
Pretty well fed up with my job
Pretty grateful to have a job in spite of being fed up with it
Pretty relieved to still have some of my loved ones with me
Pretty worried about things going on at work
Pretty hopeful about a few things I've discovered recently that may lead to something good, for a change,
and
Pretty much out of time to post, for now.
Yeah, looks as though that's about as pretty as it gets ;-)
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Hi everyone. Thank you for listening. Yuo have no idea how much it helps me. Thanks for your 'pretty poem' Stormy.
I lived in a loveless (although I did not know it) marriage for too many years and accepted the excuses of why we had no intimacy without seeking the real truth. Don't be the fool that I was.
Thank you for saying this. In my case, the lack of intimacy is so obvious and has been for so long, that if I was not very very concerned about the impact on the kids, I would have gone already.
You have a right to be loved and cared for and have a complete and fullfilling relationship.
Thank you for saying this. It is like a fairy tale that I want to be true but deep down cannot believe it yet. I will just keep trying to give myself that message until one day I will truly believe it.
If you love him, give it everything you have to try to save it.
I do not love him. The him that I thought I was marrying turned out to be a lie. I have been struggling wth this for sometime. I just don't feel any love. Part of it is that I just feel dead inside. The other part is that I feel such anger and betrayal. And I just don't even know who he is. He has lied so much. And he does not even like me, as much as he protests. His behavior is very clear. He has told me, "I love 60% of you but I wish the other 40% would disappear."
Also, don't discount the affect the rape may be having on your relationship.
You're right. It does have an effect. He would have wanted me to just get rid of the effect somehow without bothering him. From my point of view, he knew I had issues when we started (I was depressed, on meds, and in therapy), and he pressed and pressed me to get married, saying that he loved me so much. He had seen me at my worst. I thought maybe he really did love me and it felt like a relief to be accepted with all my warts. Soon he talked me off my meds, with disastrous results, and shushed me up about my problems. Voiceless again.
I hold you in my prayers.
Thank you Brigid.
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Plucky,
And I just don't even know who he is. He has lied so much.
I completely understand this. Unfortunately, I didn't see it until after he left me and for a very brief time was somewhat honest about himself. I don't know what I would have done had I learned the truth earlier. It's easy to say that I would have bailed out and saved myself from any further hurt, betrayal, dysfunction, emptiness, etc., etc. But I don't know that for sure. I would hope that now, with many hours of good therapy behind me, that I would not have settled for what I had, but it has taken a lot of work to get to the point where I feel I deserve that.
I think that is the key. Learning that you deserve better and demanding it. Easier said than done, I know. But you are lightyears ahead of me in your awareness of what is happening (or not happening) in your marriage. You will probably need some professional help (I can't remember if you are getting this) to help you work through this.
God bless,
Brigid
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I would hope that now, with many hours of good therapy behind me, that I would not have settled for what I had, but it has taken a lot of work to get to the point where I feel I deserve that.
Yes Brigid, I know exactly what you mean. I hope you are firmly at that point. I actually (unfortunately) do not think I am at the point of feeling I deserve a better relationship. What is motivating me is that I want my children to witness a healthy marital relationship, or at least not to witness an unhealthy one.
Before I had children I felt that having them would make my life worth living. And it has. I came to a point where all the things that had made me happy, or kept me occupied rather, were no longer enough. My real concerns were breaking through. Now it is my duty (and my passion) to make sure they get the best I can give them. I just don't understand people who put themselves before their children. Maybe for me it is easier since I have little self to begin with in a way. But I only have a few years to shape them forever! How can I not do my best?
Ps thanks again for changing my life by helping me here when I had nowhere else to go.
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Plucky,
What is motivating me is that I want my children to witness a healthy marital relationship, or at least not to witness an unhealthy one.
This is an excellent motivation. My therapist told me many times when I would be expressing sadness for my children over their family having come apart, that it is better for them in the long run to see their mother in a happy, fullfilling relationship, than in a marriage that is devoid of love, respect, and joy. It is a mantra I have repeated many times over during the last 21 months.
Now it is my duty (and my passion) to make sure they get the best I can give them. I just don't understand people who put themselves before their children.
I absolutely agree. My primary goal through the whole separation and divorce was to make sure the kids came through it as unscathed as possible. I know that I will recover and eventually move on a make a new life, but as long as they live under my roof, they will always be the priority. I've often said that my life truly began when I became a mother and that is where my identity and passion lies. Maybe because they were the first two people in my life to whom I could give and receive unconditional love.
Ps thanks again for changing my life by helping me here when I had nowhere else to go.
You're very welcome. We're all here to help each other and blessed to have found this group of friends around the dinner table.
Hugs,
Brigid
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Hi all:
Been reading here but not posting.
From a few pages back, Plucky wrote:
I am storing up all the nice things you all say in my heart. They replace the holes left ...
Good for you, keep doing that!!
I actually (unfortunately) do not think I am at the point of feeling I deserve a better relationship....
That unworthy feeling again? Your mother told you not to dress like that and then it was your fault for the rape because you deserved it.....you weren't worthy of much better, right?
You've been N'd!! Your mother lied!! You didn't look like a slut at all!! You looked like an adolescent, who was experimenting with clothing, and you might have benefitted by a loving, caring mother, who we'll pretend could have tried to ease you toward slightly more conservative tastes, by gently guiding you (but the one you had probably envied your youth and beauty)!
Do you see what she did? She stole your confidence! She put you down with vile insults! She (silly woman) didn't value you, or the good in you, or how lovely you were!! Instead.......she tried to destroy it!
It wasn't your fault that you were raped!
It wasn't your fault that you were raped!
It wasn't! It wasn't!! It wasn't!!!!!!!!!
Rape is about control, not about what you were wearing or anything about what you do.
It's about seeking those who seem vunerable, ceasing opportunities and about overpowering people!
You did absolutely nothing to deserve being raped!!
Nothing!!!
Nothing! Nothing! Nothing!
As a matter of fact, your mother might own the responsibility of instilling a feeling of unworthiness in you.....for the pain you may still be feelings......the pain it seems like you are still feeling....due to her cruel and demeaning treatment of you!!
But......there is no chance of her doing that I bet! :evil:
You deserve to be treated with love and respect, kindness and caring! You are worthy of love!!
You ARE worthy of love!
You are!!!
(((((((((((((Plucky)))))))))))))
Repeat after me.........I am worthy of love.
My abusers are responsible for their behaviour.
I deserve respect, kindness and caring.
Please store these words in a safe, easy to access place in your heart, and let them fill up all the holes left there by an empty mother!!!
GFN
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Please store these words in a safe, easy to access place in your heart, and let them fill up all the holes left there by an empty mother!!!
GFN
Thank you GFN. I will. I would have responded sooner but I was at the chiropractor recovering from the whiplash I sustained from your bracing slaps. Just kidding. :lol:
Of course you are right. And the top of my head knows it. It is just that pesky bottom of my heart that persists in mirroring all the bad messages. But since you lay it all out so clearly, it is going to be very easy to replay and correct that faulty reasoning in future.
Today I had a conversation with my mom. I have finally realized the glaringly obvious: she tries to divide and conquer my sister and me. She was going on about some money my sister owes me and then she said that when she dies she will make sure I get more in order to make up for it. (As if she has some vast estate.) I told her that if she did that, it would lay the foundation for a lifelong rift between me and my only surviving close relative, and that money was not that important to me and I did not want her to do that. She was so surprised she did not have a response! For once! Yaye!
She went on to talk about the deep dark secrets my sister must have which explains why she cannot save any money. (In fact, my sister doesn't make that much and she does have a shopping habit. Nothing too bizarre.) She brought up things my sister did in college (long, long ago) and mentioned the fact that she did not respond to my mother's accusations as PROOF that she is doing something mysterious and underhanded.
And I also sidestepped the bait about lamenting her death! Yaye yaye!
Oh how enlightened I feel! Man how obvious it all is now! And now I can avoid being a club my mom uses to beat my sister with! Yaye yaye yaye!
Feeling really
Plucky
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Hi Plucky:
Sorry about the whiplash! Glad there are chiropractors to fix things up!
She was so surprised she did not have a response! For once! Yaye
Isn't it great saying something that leaves them speachless like that?
Happens to me so rarely but awwwwwwwwww.....the memory! :D
And now I can avoid being a club my mom uses to beat my sister with! Yaye yaye yaye!
Thata girl! (I'm seeing a hairless toothless cave woman swinging a club and missing, every time from now on! :D )
...it is going to be very easy to replay and correct that faulty reasoning in future.
So glad to hear this. Keep playing the new tape. You are valuable, lovable, worthy.....absolutely!!
Also so glad you're feeling courageous in such trying circumstances!!
Go go girlie!!
GFN
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Wow- what a painful and loaded topic for any woman!! I don't think any one of us is truly satisfied with her looks- models and beauty queens etc. incl. My N mother always told me I was " retarded and would never hold a job or be able to live on my own"( have dyslexia, am a nurse X 20 yrs and lo and behold! function quite nicely on my own!!- the best revenge!). She also repeatedly told me I was " fat". I was a serious nationally ranked swimmer for many yrs as pre teen and teen. weight was under what average is for my build and am still thin. She would loudly and publicly in any forum discuss my " weight problem". She would restrict my food even though I was training 4 hrs a day. My ex N always told me I was " beautiful... for MY AGE( he's fixated on 19 yr. old blondes with big tits- I'm 46, black hair and no big tits!). I modelled for years and he used to tell me he " went out with REAL models...worked for vogue etc". I recently- before I kicked him to the curb- had been ill and in and out of hospital for several weeks thus losing significant weight. At that time he looked at me with open disgust and told me I had the sex appeal of a boy> At that point in time what with his withholding sex and being sexually sadistic( is somatic N and a recently diagnosed sex addict)- I had stopped even being near him or sharing my bed physically ( his new friend was the sofa and his computer porn and masturbating- actually the real and only new friend was the sofa! ). He left me a message a few days ago telling me he allegedly is dating a 18 yr. old blonde large breasted stripper! even though I can look in the mirror and see I look great I've now gone back to ruminating about alll the abusive things my N mother told me for yrs. I'm working on myself- inside, not outside!- and am only interested in getting my life back on track. I have absolutely no interest in men or sex at this time and frankly that is A OK with me! I feel for women because all Western societies promote completely unattainable " beauty" and bombard us with images that don't represent the average woman remotely. sorry to you Barbies out there! Just kidding! I think it's vital to heal your inside and that will somewhat- hopefully completely- may not be achievable- let you look in the mirror and smile. It's definately soul scarring. Thanks for addressing this topic.
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Hi Moira:
Sorry for all you've been through and for all of the pain that has caused you. You sound like a very determined person and that's a good thing. You will heal from this!
He left me a message a few days ago telling me he allegedly is dating a 18 yr. old blonde large breasted stripper!
Well! Doesn't that just beat a beautiful, dark haired, decent, professional woman by such a long shot eh? He lacks good taste.
Wonder what he'll find next? A nice experienced lady of the night?
Who cares??? :D
He's the loser who doesn't know what he's lost.
I'm curious Moira....did you answer his message?
Be strong and resist the temptation if he leaves any more messages! Post here if you need to, as much as you need to and forget this jerk!
He isn't worth the time it takes to dial the numbers.
:D Sela
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He left me a message a few days ago telling me he allegedly is dating a 18 yr. old blonde large breasted stripper!
If he's so happy, why doesn't he just enjoy his life without making announcements to you? It's just another sadistic move. Allegedly is definitely the key word here.
bunny
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This is not only for women. If your parent was N, what did that do to your opinion of your attractiveness? During that critical teen period? When finding a mate? Now?
Oh my god! That is the biggest, most triggering and angering word for me. Not angry at you. :)
When I was a young child I asked my Nmother if I was beautiful. She paused, looked away from me, took a deep breath and then said to me, "no, but you're pretty."
Since then "pretty" has been almost a swear word for me. I was not reflected in my Nmother's eyes therefore I had no sense of what "pretty" meant. I only felt it must be something horrible because I was a human wrong rather than a human being.
I never had a weight problem as a child, adolescent or young adult. Yet my brothers teased me unmercifully saying I was fat, singing nasty songs to me and my friends, and telling me I needed to go on a diet.
I didn't date until I turned 19.
As an adult I remember some guy buying the song, "You are so beautiful to me, can't you see." All I could say over and over in my mind was, 'no, I can't see.'
Obviously I still struggle with it - there, I can't even say 'it.'
People have told me I am beautiful but I can't see it. And pretty -- ugh! That word. Pretty stupid. Pretty fat. Pretty dumb. No one ever said you're beautiful fat. Beautiful stupid. Beautiful dumb. Now did they? :( :x
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Wow, this topic really touches on a lot. Self-criticism about my appearance began young for me. I never felt remotely pretty. I was the ugly product of a beautiful, hard-edged, glittering, status-driven Nmother. When I was 17 I had a kind of breakdown when I was away at boarding school; long-buried abuse memories had began to surface and I couldn't stop from crying. I got sent home to my Nmother. Her maternal 'wisdom' was to hand me newspaper cuttings about liposuction and suggest that things would be better for me if I had a nose-job.
As I have got older, I realise that a sense of attractiveness is directly related to self esteem. Whilst not feeling exactly attractive, I have a more realistic view of my appearance, that does not have me angsting in front of the mirror berating my appearance like it used to. Ultimately one has to try to feel better within, as it will emanate outwards. Its about working on building up one's core, and the outside will follow. Its about caring for oneself as if you are valuable, not as the worthless possession of a narcissist.
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This is such a tough topic for us. Although I replied earlier it is worth saying again. Even beauty queens and stud muffins are insecure about their looks. At this stage of the game I believe health is the most attractive attitude you can wear. WHen you feel good inside and out, you look good. It's all in the attitude. I see it so clearly in myself. WHen the dark cloud of (whatever) is hanging over me I dont look that good. If I feel confident, I glow. FOcusing on our perceived physical imperfections is a cruel, self defeating game as we all have them. Even to top flight models have something they dont like about themselves.
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Dear Daylily,
I am new here, and have a lot of questions for everyone in the future, but I wanted to respond. I am jewish, and one of the many beautiful traditions in this faith is the Ayshes Chayil hymn (a woman of valor), read by the husband to his wife on the eve of the Sabbath. It goes like this:
"Who can find a wife of excellence? Her value far exceeds that of gems. The heart of her husband trusts in her, he lacks no gain. She treats him with goodness, never with evil. all the days of her life. She seeks out wool and flax, and works willingly with her hands. She is like the merchant ships; she brings her food from afar. She rises while it is still night, gives food to her household, and sets out the tasks for her maids. She considers a field and buys it; from her earnings she plants a vineyard. She girds her loins with strength, and flexes her arms. She realizes that her enterprise is profitable; her lamp does not go out at night. She puts her hands on the spindle, and her palms grasp the distaff. She holds out her hand to the poor, and extends her hands to the destitute. She does not fear for her household in the frost, for her entire household is clothed warmly in scarlet. She makes her own tapestries; her garments are of fine linen and purple Her husband is well known at the gates, as he sits with the elders of the land. She makes linens and sells them; she provides the merchants with girdles. Strength and dignity are her garb, she looks smilingly toward the future. She opens her mouth with wisdom, and the teaching of kindness is on her tongue. She watches the conduct of her household, and does not eat the bread of idleness. Her children rise and acclaim her, her husband- and he praises her: Many daughters have done worthily, but you surpass them all. Charm is deceptive and beauty is naught; a G-d-fearing woman is the one to be praised. Give her praise for her accomplishments, and let her deeds laud her at the gates."
So, charm is deceptive, and beauty is naught. That doesn't mean those things aren't nice, they're just not important in the grand scheme. Many young orthodox jewish boys today still want a pretty bride, however the ideal in the teaching is one that develops and matures as does the relationship, and as the hymn is read from week to week. This hymn acknowledges the fact that we are often taken in by beauty, but in a marriage, beauty is surly not enough to keep a household going. I don't know if you belive in G-d, but it may help you to really believe and know that there are a lot of people whose life experiences has taught them that judging a person solely on their outward appearance can be a big mistake. And lastly, may I add that my impressions of you from reading your posts is of a beautiful soul.
Vickie
P.S. Sometimes I feel pretty, and other times I don't. I am average/decent-enough looking, but can look nice when I try. When I am in a good frame of mind I have more desire to look my best, and when I am tired or depressed I just don't care about it. I think this may be typical.
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Vickie...That was a beautiful post and Welcome!
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Hi Sela! Thanks for your support! Hell no, I have no intention of calling him. In fact I'm relishing in my own sadistic way!- the " possibility" this may in fact be true- his allegedly dating teeny bopper stipper. He's told me in the past every stripper, hooker etc. he's ever been involved with has ripped him off- stolen money and drugs- obviously his only bargaining chips( is now a sad sack of shit- 52 yrs old and looks older...no job, no money and therefore can't buy drugs). Of course he delusionally believes all these sex trade workers were with him " because he's a great guy...treated them like girlfriends...they all loved his big dick..." He couldn't have a dick big enough to remotely compensate for his abusive behaviour!!! I should know!! The only statement he's made that is the truth is that he treated all his sex trade workers like " girlfriends"! At least they got money in exchange and only had to endure his twisted behaviour for very limited amount of time!
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Dear Vickie,
Thank you more than I can say. I love that passage, and I try to take it to heart. But more than reminding me to remember it, you gave me something equally beautiful--a piece of your time and your spirit. That, too, is priceless, and I believe it demonstrates that you are the type of woman that passage describes.
Welcome. I have received so much here, and I can offer so little. But I am deeply grateful for your post, and I hope I can get to know you better.
best,
daylily
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Hi Moira:
You're very welcome for the support! I'm glad you're not answering him! That's wonderful!
Are you thinking about blocking his messages or deleting them before reading/listening? Would that help you to disconnect further from him, distance yourself from him?
At least they got money in exchange and only had to endure his twisted behaviour for very limited amount of time!
These messages to you are twisted and manipulative. You don't have to endure any more at all.
Those girls get money because that is their profession. It's sad that they are so desperate or whatever. I don't think you are anywhere near on the same channel.
:D Sela
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Hi Sela! I'm not listening at all to phone messages- like I did a few weeks ago- am now immediately deleting them as soon as I hear his voice. Have also returned letters without opening to " sender". Am not reading emails- automatically delete. Feels pretty good to get on top of my OCD!!! What has really helped is reconnecting to my former life in every way. How fantastic to see old neglected friends, go out, meet new people, get back into books and art, and am now signing up for some classes!! Living a full life with my smile back is the best revenge! Re: the stripper bit- as I think I said before, it does make me smile that my predator may have actually ( although not remotely possible- unless said stripper is brain damaged and blind and doesn't speak English!) hooked up with another predator!!! Karma!!! I'm also not feeling sorry for him- he is what he is and the one truthful thing he said to me before lmy kicking him out was " I created chaos, fed it and thrived on it...I'm sorry...IT WAS SEF DESTRUCTIVE". The first part is true and would be insightful if he were remotely capable of insight!- but I love the typical N twist about the alleged appology that he's sorry for HIMSELF for being self destructive. What a surprise that I didn't even factor into that appology eh?! As to me not being remotely like his sex addict women- hee hee- if I were, I'd be rich cause I sure as hell wouldn't be sleeping with him for his looks, money( what money?) or alleged big dick!!! Take care!
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.....am now immediately deleting them as soon as I hear his voice. Have also returned letters without opening to " sender". Am not reading emails- automatically delete...
Good for you Moira for all of this. It must be difficult, sometimes, because I'm sure curiosity will kick in once and awhile. I'm so happy to hear that you are getting reconnected to friends and doing the things you like. That is wonderful!
You are an inspiration!
:D Sela
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I have been lurking, but this thread hit an old wound.
When I was fifteen years old, my boyfriend said 'You're so beautiful'. It was the first time I remember hearing that. Shortly after that, I asked my mother if she thought I was beautiful. Her immediate reply was 'No, you're not beautiful in the classic sense, and you're not pretty, and I wouldn't describe you as cute, but you're striking.'
Of course, what I was really asking was... 'Does the uniqueness of me contain a beauty worth knowing and enjoying?'. I've been told by many people over the years I am 'beautiful' or 'pretty' but it all seems to stop at the filter of my mother's words. Beauty is truly in the eyes of the beholder. In searching for our worth, we are really desiring to feel worthy of being loved.
Finally, it is ultimately a beautiful soul that brings beauty into a life. The 'skin' of a person can never carry a relationship.
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Hi Observer:
I've been told by many people over the years I am 'beautiful' or 'pretty' but it all seems to stop at the filter of my mother's words.
I hope you wiil take that filter out and pitch it into a pile of rubble somewhere because it is all plugged up with junk and not a good filter!
I'm so sorry that your mother said that too you and for the hurt that caused. It was mean and a dispicable thing for a mother to say to her child. Mothers are supposed to see every beauty in their children and to encourage children, not devalue them.
You are worthy of being loved Observer. Your mother was blind. Your beauty is obvious to me.
I hope coming here will help you to finally throw away an old used chunky filter and to give more value to and embrace those who's eyes can see your uniqueness, which they find beautiful and worth knowing and enjoying.
:D Sela
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This is such a universal topic. We grow up in this society, where we're constantly bombarded with impossible standards for beauty, where our value is directly related to our attractiveness, and then some of us have the misfortune to have a nparent who not only supports this bull****, but sanctifies it! Home is supposed to be where people love and accept us as who we are. I'm so sad for myself, and all the other children of ns who never saw home as a refuge.
My nmother started monitering my weight when I was 8, it had turned into name-calling, attacks and enforced diets by the time I was 11. I wasn't supposed to want to be pretty, because that would have been considered vain, but I was also supposed to be as thin as possible. She used to tell me that if I was fat I would 1) not be able to get a job, 2) not be able to find a mate, 3)be an embarassment to my father. I was anorexic by college. I think my nmother's obession with my weight was her own projected self-loathing and deathwish. Sometimes I think she would respect me more if I'd managed to kill myself with anorexia. Not that she's capable of anything resembling respect.
I've gotten enough distance on the abuse that when those negative voices come up, sooner or later I recognize them as hers, and not mine. No one's attractiveness, goodness or worth is based on what someone else thinks of how they look. I maintain my health, mental and physical by 1) not hanging out with people like my nmother, 2) doing a variety of exercise that feels good during and after, 3) giving myself a huge break when the inner nparent comes up and tries to make me feel afraid. Sometimes I feel beautiful, sometimes I feel not so beautiful, and sometimes I just feel like me - unattached to the concept of pretty or not pretty. I like the latter the best.