Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: October on June 10, 2005, 06:49:56 AM
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I was talking to my t the other day, and I said, 'I should just stay at home all the time because I only cause trouble wherever I go. I upset everybody.'
She asked me, 'Is that true?'
My reply was, 'Who cares what is true?'
Which I think is rather profound, when you think about it. :oops: :oops: What is the point of knowing the difference between true and false, when nobody actually gives a damn?
Being Cassandra today. :?
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October,
There are people who do "give a damn" about the truth. Those are the kind of people I enjoy being around. When I was young I thought people didn't "give a damn" about the truth ... but it was just because I was around those who didn't. I had to search out and find others who did care about the truth, those who loved the truth more than themselves. Those people do exist.
LM
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October,
What is the point of knowing the difference between true and false, when nobody actually gives a damn?
Do you actually believe this??
I can't speak for anyone else, but I absolutely care what is true and not true. Having been so profoundly deceived by someone in whom I had complete trust, honesty and truth rate at the top of my list.
I can't lie to myself and I can't lie to others. Be it a moral thing, a sense of integrity, self-respect, or whatever, I can tell you that I sure do give a damn. If I find out that someone has been lying to me now, that person is out of my life. I understand that there are the occasional white lies that are forgivable, but I believe all good relationships (romantic or otherwise) are built on a foundation of honesty.
I think if you look at how dishonesty has damaged you and your life, you can't honestly believe it doesn't matter. People who live by the lie won't give a damn and probably expect that everyone else lies too. Those are not people with whom I choose to relate. I truly want to get back to a point where I can trust and not question everything around me.
I can assure you that you don't cause trouble wherever you go. You are a kind, generous spirit who is just trying to survive, be a good mom, and be a good person. We all cause trouble at times, but good people can't always be problematic. They would then no longer be good people.
Brigid
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Hi Cassandra,
Do you love the people you are around? For me personally, if I care for those people I accept them for who they are and where they are at. I don't expect them to change or expect anything from them. That way I am never dissappointed. However, if they are in a position to do me some type of real harm, I just have to stay away from them. If I am secure that what I know is truth, I understand that I won't be able to convince them and that life will eventually show them. This keeps me from getting into disagreements and alienating those that I care about. I just try to enjoy the time that I am with them, even if they are deceived. I have become a better listener and slower to try to fix. I hope this helps.
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Hi all:
I wouldn't give a hairy kapoodle about the truth, if I didn't hate lies so much!!
GFN
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What is a 'hairy kapoodle' ? Animal,vegetable or Narcissist?
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October, are you ok, do u want to talk, u have always been there for me and helped me a lot with my thoughts, now i feel u r hurting :!: :?:
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Hi jophil:
What is a 'hairy kapoodle' ? Animal,vegetable or Narcissist?
I think it's a cross between a kangaroo and a poodle but it's much, much hairrier than either, so I'd have to say it's probably animal.
:D :D
GFN
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Scarlet, I give a damn about what’s true or not!
Especially when it comes to: did I just say that, or only think it?
Oops, I usually just think those things and don’t actually (factually, truthfully, in reality as everyone around me acknowledges it, or at least those who have some grip on what reality is) pardon?..... oh yeah, I usually don’t actually speak it, with my voice, the voice that makes a noise that others can hear (as opposed to the ones in my head only).
Truth / reality / are necessarily subjective, I think.
Honesty applies to humans only, because only humans lie (as far as I can tell, although I’m sure a few birds and animals try to trick me). Honesty really is at the top of my list of Things I Like In Life. Being honest with ourselves is paramount but very difficult.
Truth is usually what we think is true, until shown another option or interpretation. People are always disagreeing about truth. I can argue with myself about whether I’m being honest or not, I can solve that problem on my own, in my head, I don’t need to bring the contents of someone else’s head into the equation. Honesty is closer to the truth than any external 'objective' truth. Honesty is our own personal truth.
That was fun! I think I think all that, but on the other hand, I could have my mind changed.
October, a more precise question from your T would have been:
Do you really believe that? Is that your truth?
and then
Do you really believe that other people think that too?
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I was talking to my t the other day, and I said, 'I should just stay at home all the time because I only cause trouble wherever I go. I upset everybody.'
She asked me, 'Is that true?'
My reply was, 'Who cares what is true?'
Which I think is rather profound, when you think about it. :oops: :oops: What is the point of knowing the difference between true and false, when nobody actually gives a damn?
Being Cassandra today. :?
I think she was trying to give you a "reality check" and you answered who cares what is true. If I were a therapist I would take that as, "October isn't ready to give up the fantasy that she is so powerfully destructive. Maybe we can look deeper at this fantasy."
bunny
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AH IF ONE IS REALLY TRU TO self
it would mean methinks one knows self's
properly relationship to the whole
...to love all unconditionally...
which to me means...
to love others where u consider the needs of others b4
your own..
WAIT THO THERE'S MORE :)
with such love comes discernment of when
the other might need rebuke for their own good
elsewise one might be guilty of enabling bad behavior
WAIT THERE'S MORE :)
with discernment one discerns the proper points of application
and timing :)
plus uncondtional love i take has conditions that it makes
not to love the other
but as to how to respond to their behaviour
WAIT THERE'S MORE ;)
but no taint of wrangling and manipulating for self glory
..hmmm a sore point for narcissists
not that they see it :)
BUT GIVING ALL GLORY TO GOD
WAIT THERE'S MORE :)
i like to think of glory as the ability to serve
to serve your creator by obeying his will
and not using that ability to contrive
to make oneself as if essentially better than others
tho the state of my soul might well
temporitly be in a better state than some others...
but such better state
must be maintained by
considering the needs of others before my own...
now as to ifn
the thread founder needs rebuked
or does she sin and know it not
:)
well no rebuke
..just helpful instruction
and if then she makes the same mistake...
THE WRATH OF KHAN INDEEDY
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HOW MANY ERRORS DID U FIND
IN TEXT OF PREVIOUS I FOUND SEVERAL
LIKE
MY OWN
SHOULD HAVE BEEN....
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I think she was trying to give you a "reality check" and you answered who cares what is true. If I were a therapist I would take that as, "October isn't ready to give up the fantasy that she is so powerfully destructive. Maybe we can look deeper at this fantasy."
bunny
I am not destructive. I am a loving person. I am highly compassionate, and at my best highly creative as well. However, that appears not to be the reality which other people around me see.
Charlie's school sees me as the mum from hell, which I can live with. But to hear again this week that I am once again being threatened with prosecution and jail for doing what I have in relation to her health is rather difficult to live with. My own reality is intact. But it is a little bubble, which seems to have no reality for anyone else that I can find. Present company excepted, of course.
This looks weak and pathetic. However, in the meeting what 'they' saw was strong. I said, that is your choice, if you want to go ahead. But if you do I can only tell the judge the same as I am telling you; that I will not send my child to school while she has chronic pain which the doctors are unable to control, and while the school environment makes this pain worse for her.
That is my reality. The LEA and school reality, as quoted to me, is that there are 'no grounds whatsoever' for me keeping her at home. I said, you can hardly call a chronic illness no grounds whatsoever. Whether the grounds are sufficient may be debateable, but they do not equate to no grounds whatever.
This is not my fantasy. I wish it were, because then I could magic it away by some positive thinking. But how do you postive think court action away?
Sorry. Being a bit negative at present. Don't mean to drag things down yet again.
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I can't speak for anyone else, but I absolutely care what is true and not true. Having been so profoundly deceived by someone in whom I had complete trust, honesty and truth rate at the top of my list.
I can't lie to myself and I can't lie to others. Be it a moral thing, a sense of integrity, self-respect, or whatever, I can tell you that I sure do give a damn.
Brigid
I too do not lie. Well, we all lie without knowing it sometimes, and we all tell our neighbours what a lovely outfit, whether we think it is or not, of course. But I don't lie.
I don't need to. If I am not believed when I tell the truth, where is the point of lying? :? And more importantly, mostly I am not even listened to, let alone believed or not.
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I had to search out and find others who did care about the truth, those who loved the truth more than themselves. Those people do exist.
LM
You are right. There are such people. Maybe just not enough ... :)
The other problem at present is that X wants to visit again, and daughter wants him to. I really really don't want this to happen, but am having to listen to C and give her opinion the same weight as my own - maybe more because it would be for her benefit. But it is soooo hard to even think about. I said I would take her to his flat, but she wants him to visit here, which means another overnight stay. I can't bear the thought, after the last time. :cry: :cry: :cry:
And she mentioned it at my parents' house yesterday, and dad said, what, you are not thinking of stopping him coming, are you? And I said, too right I am. (Dad always identifies with X (the man) on this. Never with me, whatever X does.)
This is so hard. Before it was me against the world for C and myself. Now even she is on the other side. Makes it difficult. Doesn't make me wrong, or what I think untrue. Makes me more isolated, though.
So, after listening to C, I spoke to X, and said I need three good reasons why he should be allowed to visit, and they had all better be about C. He said 'I want to see her', and 'I miss her'. He can't even see the difference. I said for him to think about it and try to see things from her point of view rather than his own. Next thing that will happen, if he is true to pattern, will be a letter from his solicitors complaining that I have refused access.
What is true in all of this? Where does my reality become visible for anyone else? :cry: :cry:
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now as to ifn
the thread founder needs rebuked
or does she sin and know it not
:)
well no rebuke
..just helpful instruction
and if then she makes the same mistake...
THE WRATH OF KHAN INDEEDY
Whether or not I 'need' rebuke is not for you to say. Only God has the right to judge me, and you are not God.
Please take your 'helpful instruction' and stick it up your jumper. Thank you. :)
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October, are you ok, do u want to talk, u have always been there for me and helped me a lot with my thoughts, now i feel u r hurting :!: :?:
Thanks, Denise. Yes, I am ok, in that I will keep going, and I will muddle through somehow. Just in a bit of a bad patch at present. But perhaps that means that things will improve soon. Who knows?? :?
How are you today? I know the dreaded weekend is almost upon us again - keep posting about how you are doing, won't you??
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Truth / reality / are necessarily subjective, I think.
This is true. ( 8) ). And there are some things that we cannot know the truth of. But there are others where people who ought to be able to see what we can see, for some reason do not, or cannot, or will not. Whatever the reason. And they distort reality. Not just subjectively, but even in an objective sense.
I am very suggestible, and it takes me a long time to fight back from this kind of topsy turvy thinking. And it is exhausting. :(
October, a more precise question from your T would have been:
Do you really believe that? Is that your truth?
and then
Do you really believe that other people think that too?
If she had asked this, then I would have said, no that is not my reality.
8)
Then I would have said, it is not the reality of everyone, but of most people that I meet, most of the time. So much so, that the voice of reason is drowned out, and I lose touch with what reality is. Or maybe I wouldn't have said that, but I might have eventually worked it out.
But even this t doesn't want the truth, does she? She needs me to protect her from the truth that I cannnot cope for three weeks without support. And I protect her by coping with what cannot be coped with. I become the keystone, when I am actually the weaker of the two.
This is like C at school. I took her out because all the coping was borne by her, when she was already unwell. I transferred the coping to me, the LEA, her tutor, the school; anyone but her, so that she could recover. But this is not anyone's 'truth' but mine, seemingly. :(
Trying to be stronger. It may be nobody's truth but mine, but my truth is the one that is happening; I am the one that counts. Makes me strong, even though not strong, if that makes any sense. Others can have their opinions, but I am the mother. :oops: :oops: :lol:
Thanks everyone for your help. Much appreciated, as ever. (((Hugs)))
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Please take your 'helpful instruction' and stick it up your jumper. Thank you.
Bravo, October! (cheering emoticons here please.)
mudpup
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Hi October,
I really really don't want this to happen, but am having to listen to C and give her opinion the same weight as my own - maybe more because it would be for her benefit. But it is soooo hard to even think about. I said I would take her to his flat, but she wants him to visit here, which means another overnight stay. I can't bear the thought, after the last time.
I don't give my daughter's opinion the same weight as my own. She's a kid. Kids sometimes want things that aren't in their best interests.
I can't see how it could be in C's best interests to have an episode like the last one that occured when your ex stayed over.
As I recall, you said he would NEVER stay over again. I hope you can stick to your guns and do what is in C's and your best interest.
I also hope you keep your boundaries in place.
I hope the weekend goes well for you, and I hope i didn't sound like an old scold. :?
mud
PS. I think there is objective truth. I think our perceptions of that truth are often subjective, but that doesn't alter the underlying objective truth we are observing.
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Hi October:
I'm with Mud regarding best interests.
If your father thinks his ex-son-in-law should be sooooo very welcomed, let him welcome him, in his home.
He can stay there with gold old x-dad in law. Why not?
Visit in public. Sleep at ex daddy's house. See how lovely that will turn out. :D :evil: :D
GFN
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Sorry I didn't know the context of the conversation between you and t--i.e., that it was about the school. You can stay home if you want, but why would you. Who cares about these people and their perception. They can go to hell.
As for your t, I would just tell her: "You abandoned me and I'm not going to answer your stupida** questions until we straighten out this relationship. I don't trust you."
But that's me.
bunny
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I'm with mud. I would NOT give a teenager's opinion equal weight. No way, Jose. Keep this guy out of your house. She'll get over it.
bunny
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I'm with mud. I would NOT give a teenager's opinion equal weight. No way, Jose. Keep this guy out of your house. She'll get over it.
bunny
Me three. You are not obligated to offer shelter, are you? So don't.
Also, sometimes people just don't understand the things you do to protect your child or to meet their special needs. If your daughter is at school in pain, I have a hard time seeing the benefit. She can learn geometry later, but now is the time she is learning how to manage in life. How to manage, is not to ignore your body and yourself to meet the expectations of others.
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But to hear again this week that I am once again being threatened with prosecution and jail for doing what I have in relation to her health is rather difficult to live with. ... But how do you postive think court action away?
October, I think this is probably a bluff and a form of coercion to get you to back down. It's not pleasant to deal. I think you said the appropriate thing:
I said, that is your choice, if you want to go ahead. But if you do I can only tell the judge the same as I am telling you; that I will not send my child to school while she has chronic pain which the doctors are unable to control, and while the school environment makes this pain worse for her.
Now you are just going to have to wait and see what they do ... if they take you to court, you already know what you are going to say. Hopefully it won't come to that, if it does you will cross that bridge when and if you have to.
The other problem at present is that X wants to visit again, and daughter wants him to. I really really don't want this to happen, but am having to listen to C and give her opinion the same weight as my own - maybe more because it would be for her benefit. But it is soooo hard to even think about. I said I would take her to his flat, but she wants him to visit here, which means another overnight stay. I can't bear the thought, after the last time.
And she mentioned it at my parents' house yesterday, and dad said, what, you are not thinking of stopping him coming, are you? And I said, too right I am. (Dad always identifies with X (the man) on this. Never with me, whatever X does.)
This is so hard. Before it was me against the world for C and myself. Now even she is on the other side. Makes it difficult. Doesn't make me wrong, or what I think untrue. Makes me more isolated, though.
So, after listening to C, I spoke to X, and said I need three good reasons why he should be allowed to visit, and they had all better be about C. He said 'I want to see her', and 'I miss her'. He can't even see the difference. I said for him to think about it and try to see things from her point of view rather than his own. Next thing that will happen, if he is true to pattern, will be a letter from his solicitors complaining that I have refused access.
What is true in all of this?
Maybe she doesn't want to go to his flat because she doesn't want to be alone with him. Maybe you can talk to her and find out if this is what is going on with her concerning this. I think you need to let her know why it isn't wise or reasonable to have him stay in your home. Maybe you both can go and stay at his flat if that is possible. That way she won't be alone with him and you two can leave if there is a problem.
I totally agree that he shouldn't be in your home. I don't think it is unreasonable for you to inform him in writing (a letter he must sign for, and at the same time send a copy to your solicitor to put in your file, if you don't have a solicitor then send a copy to his solicitor) that he will have to find somewhere else to stay when he comes to visit and give a rehash of what happened the last time he stayed at your home. Or maybe have your solicitor send such a letter to his solicitor. This will protect you against charges of refusing access. I love the idea of having him stay at your Dad's ;). If nothing else he can find a hotel or hostel to stay at, he isn't a child, although he acts like one.
Where does my reality become visible for anyone else?
I think what you are really asking here is where does your reality become visible for EVERYONE else? I don't think that ever happens October. I think that's one of those (objective) TRUTHS that we have to learn to live with.
LM
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Hey, October. regarding your ex's visit:
I would echo others who have said, DO NOT let the man stay in your house. He can see your daughter, take her to dinner, take her to breakfast... You are NOT denying access. You are not allowing an alcoholic wiht a pretty bad recent track record, to sleep at your house. That's all. Let your dad who thinks he knows how it will be just fine.....have him as his guest.
I agree that you should immediately document his request, your agreement to let him see your daughter, your TERMS of that visit and WHY (last time crisis). All of this is a pain, I know, when what you would like best is to have it all go away, but I deal with this stuff daily, and documentation, to your lawyer with instructions to share with his lawyer will protect you in the long run. Money well spent. If you can't afford the lawyer route, just do it yourself, use certified mail, so you get his signature on the reciept of the letter and file it for future use.
You are protecting your child. Plain and simple.
Regarding your daughter and her school:
In the states, children can be "home schooled". Do you have such a thing where you are? I know many parents who, for medical, social or religious reasons, have home schooled thier children. As long as you are in a position to teach her, or find ways to have her learn, there are curriculums and lessons and support all over the internet to help people do this. Can you look into this?
I am sorry, and I do know, first hand as a public school teacher, how very unsympathetic the educational establishment is toward children with ANY special circumstances....the old, "everyone can fit into this mold, dammit, and we'll see to it!!!!"
You need to take care of your child....again, plain and simple.
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October: forgot to add additional voice to the idea: Do NOT let your daughter go to his flat for an overnight visit. Your daughter has valid reasons for not wanting this. Spell that out in your letter, too. This man is a danger to himself and your daughter and in no way has demonstrated that he is in any shape to parent responsibly.
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now oct did say..
Whether or not I 'need' rebuke is not for you to say. Only God has the right to judge me, and you are not God
NOW IS REBUKIN NECESSARILY JUDGIN
luke 17:3
has jesus sayin, somethin like
ifn your brother sins against u
rebuke him
and when he repents
forgive him
WHICH WAS A GRIEVOUS THORN IN MY FLESH
AS MY SISTER WHILST I WWERE YOUNG DID SAY
WE CAN REBUKE U COZ U B OUR BRO
BUT U CANT REBUKE US
COZ WE B YOUR SISTERS :)
MAYBE THAT IS WHAT WAS BEING REFERRED TO :)
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I don't give my daughter's opinion the same weight as my own. She's a kid. Kids sometimes want things that aren't in their best interests.
I can't see how it could be in C's best interests to have an episode like the last one that occured when your ex stayed over.
As I recall, you said he would NEVER stay over again. I hope you can stick to your guns and do what is in C's and your best interest.
I also hope you keep your boundaries in place.
You are right. Kids sometimes want things that are not in their best interests. And parents sometimes don't listen to their kids. It is hard to find the balance. I never ever want him here again, that is for sure. Never. But if C does, then I have to take that into account. :(
My boundaries are rather fragile at the best of times. Will discuss with t tomorrow. Maybe she will help me find a way through all this mess.
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((((((((((October))))))))))
Good luck with your t. After reading through the posts I'd be leaning towards the idea several people here have floated, of having XN stay with Daddy Dearest - and letting your daughter spend days there but not overnights... depending on the travel time.
that seems to be the most constructive & protective approach. But if even that isn't entirely safe for her...
You poor thing.
Thank God she's a good kid, and has you in her life.
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Hi October:
I'm with Mud regarding best interests.
If your father thinks his ex-son-in-law should be sooooo very welcomed, let him welcome him, in his home.
He can stay there with gold old x-dad in law. Why not?
Visit in public. Sleep at ex daddy's house. See how lovely that will turn out. :D :evil: :D
GFN
I know you are joking, but why not? As you say, that would make sense if dad and X are the same person. However, my parents will not do this for me (I asked years ago, when I first faced problems of handover and access). My Nmum hates the mention of Xs name, and is very angry at him for what he did to her. (Incidentally, he never did anything at all to her.) Her anger is so strong that she cannot ever see him again, not even to save me or C from being hurt. Neither would my brother, who is similarly angry, same reason.
Ns are something else, aren't they? But you are right, in a normal, human world, this could be possible, strangely enough. I don't even want him in a hotel or anywhere, really. I want him never to visit anywhere near this house ever again. :?
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Sorry I didn't know the context of the conversation between you and t--i.e., that it was about the school. You can stay home if you want, but why would you. Who cares about these people and their perception. They can go to hell.
As for your t, I would just tell her: "You abandoned me and I'm not going to answer your stupida** questions until we straighten out this relationship. I don't trust you."
But that's me.
bunny
Well, it wasn't, really. The t was Monday, the school was Wednesday. But it all kind of follows the same pattern, no doubt of my own creation, but it is weird how it keeps on happening. I think I am insane.
I don't think you were wrong, Bun. But it is like being Alice in Wonderland. If you are the only sane person you can find, what is the difference from being mad???????
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I'm with mud. I would NOT give a teenager's opinion equal weight. No way, Jose. Keep this guy out of your house. She'll get over it.
bunny
I think I will print that out and stick it on my fridge. What about her trips to get an icecream with her dad to the same place, that she says she wants? Tell her to find somewhere near her dad's flat instead?
Why on earth not? Sounds sane to me. :)
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October, I think this is probably a bluff and a form of coercion to get you to back down. It's not pleasant to deal. I think you said the appropriate thing
Thank you. In my saner moments I agree with this. I think they are bullying me, in the hope that I will deregister my daughter from this school. Either to another one, or to home education.
They do not know I have already joined the UK home education group, which is called Education Otherwise, in order to find out exactly what the process is, and what my rights might be. Makes it a little easier to face. But among my friends and family, absolutely no-one thinks this is the right thing to do. Mostly I am greeted with horror at the mention of doing this. Not even my close (3D) friends can understand that this nightmare is not of my making, or that if I find a solution which they do not approve, but which is the only one I can find, that I will have to take it. Everyone tells me my daughter needs a social life, as if I am newly arrived from Planet Zog. :?
Now you are just going to have to wait and see what they do ... if they take you to court, you already know what you are going to say. Hopefully it won't come to that, if it does you will cross that bridge when and if you have to.
I hope it doesn't. But in our review meeting in four weeks time, I must remember to mention to them my profession, just in passing. Public relations. So far this has kept between the school, the MP and me. One of these days I will take it to the papers too. I dread that step, but I think they have more to lose than I do. :?
I think you need to let her know why it isn't wise or reasonable to have him stay in your home. Maybe you both can go and stay at his flat if that is possible. That way she won't be alone with him and you two can leave if there is a problem.
I have said we can both stay there if absolutely necessary. But I can also drive down in the morning, come home in the evening. We did that before, when we visited him in hospital. Plenty of time, as far as I can see. I would certainly not leave her alone with him overnight. I used to do that, up until a year or so ago, and I used to stay elsewhere, with a friend, but I stopped when she told me she didn't feel safe alone with him.
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Hey, October. regarding your ex's visit:
I would echo others who have said, DO NOT let the man stay in your house. He can see your daughter, take her to dinner, take her to breakfast... You are NOT denying access. You are not allowing an alcoholic wiht a pretty bad recent track record, to sleep at your house. That's all. Let your dad who thinks he knows how it will be just fine.....have him as his guest.
Thanks. I think that is unanimous. Makes me stronger in knowing what I thought I knew before, but didn't quite. :oops: :oops:
I agree that you should immediately document his request, your agreement to let him see your daughter, your TERMS of that visit and WHY (last time crisis).
Thanks. That is a good plan, and something I can do. I need to take this into writing, and away from X talking to C to get her to persuade me to do what nobody else could. I need to take control of this situation, and not abuse her as he is doing, by giving her adult responsibility. I will get all Fiddler on the Roof and say 'I'm the momma!!' :lol:
I know many parents who, for medical, social or religious reasons, have home schooled thier children. As long as you are in a position to teach her, or find ways to have her learn, there are curriculums and lessons and support all over the internet to help people do this. Can you look into this?
Yes, UK law allows home schooling, without the need for anything formal such as the National Curriculum; that is left to the discretion of the parents as long as an education is provided. But fortunately, there is no definition of what constitutes (or more importantly, does not constitute) an education. So once I take the plunge into that scarey place, it is up to me. :? I am finding out as much as I can, with a view to deciding before next September. No point rushing it, when this year is almost over.
Thanks for the clear thinking, all. Clearer than I can achieve sometimes. :)
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Who cares about these people and their perception. They can go to hell.
As for your t, I would just tell her: "You abandoned me and I'm not going to answer your stupida** questions until we straighten out this relationship. I don't trust you."
But that's me.
bunny
I didn't read the second paragraph before. I wonder if I could say that tomorrow? Even write it down, in case the words get stuck?? :?
And I need to practice saying; 'Go to hell' to a lot of people, I think. :lol: :lol: Could be fun. 8) So if everyone thinks one thing, Bunny, and you think the opposite, it is ok? Have you ever been there? Please tell me what it was like and how you coped with it?? (Not just Bunny, anyone). I mean, I have lived with this for years, but it is difficult being so isolated from the mainstream, and having occasional moments of connection, but mostly being so alone. Sorry. Sounding self pitying. It is hard to find words that say what I mean without the whining tone. I am not whining, just trying to understand. :?
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So if everyone thinks one thing, Bunny, and you think the opposite, it is ok? Have you ever been there? Please tell me what it was like and how you coped with it??
I am not really into arguing with people and defending my convictions. I think it is totally OK for me have an opposite view. I'm not interested in defending myself, or getting them to see my point. They can pound sand for all I care. Basically it's about not needing others to agree with you, and this doesn't make you crazy, bad or anything. I suppose this is about strengthening ego functions.
bunny
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What about her trips to get an icecream with her dad to the same place, that she says she wants? Tell her to find somewhere near her dad's flat instead?
You would let a raving alkie stay at your home so she can have ice cream? I don't think so. Print this out! :D
Hang in there, you're doing good.
bunny
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Hi October:
Hang in there, you're doing good.
Ditto.
Not only that, but another thing, you are under no obligation to be responsible for your x, for where he will stay, how he will get around, nothing! He's a big boy and must look after himself. If he wants to see his daughter, he will find a way there, find a place to stay, arrange to take her for ice cream or something equally enjoyable, and make his way back, no matter the hour, the distance or the difficulty.
It just sounds like the same old "do for me" crap that drips constantly from their addicted mouths. "Poor me.....can't do yada" and we enable by picking up the pieces.
Don't do it October. Let him deal for himself. He should be helping you. You're the one raising the child and doing most of the work! You owe him nothing for her sake.
He owes her decent, responsible parenting. If he won't do it, it's his stuff.
GFN
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I suppose this is about strengthening ego functions.
bunny
Ego functions sounds right. Must look that up and find out more. I don't think my family allowed us to develop those. I have some, in some areas, but none in others. If people are nasty to me, I am fine; I can stand up to a lot (although it costs me afterwards). If they are nice, I crumble to pieces. Fortunately, the latter is quite rare. :?
I am like Calais; invaded by the French in 15 whenever it was because it was only defended on one side. To the sea front huge great towers and walls and such. To the rear no walls, because of miles of great sea marshes. So the French waited until depths of winter when the marshes froze, and just walked in. :?
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What is true today is that my therapist has told me today that she is leaving in July, and that she wants me to consider
a Whether therapy is right for me or not, because it does me so much harm. :? :? :?
b What kind of therapy I need
So that, if we think there is a continuing need, she can make appropriate arrangements for a referral elsewhere. I do not know where this would be or who it would be with. Very vague. Very unsafe. :?
My initial thoughts to her were that I need;
a A specialist rather than generalist (I have never yet had a specialist in the disorder which I actually have, which is imo why the generalists end up hurting me over and over.)
b To feel safe, which I do not always feel with her (because she does not understand enough about whatever it is that I have)
This will realistically, knowing the NHS, mean another waiting list, of perhaps 4 to 6 months, and maybe starting with someone else in early 06.
Then she said 'how are you feeling?'
I said, the feelings have to wait. I am trying to find a path. I told her that she has been detaching from me for some weeks, and she was surprised to hear this. I told her that she has kept on disappearing, and she said 'I went on holiday'. So I said, you did not tell me it was a holiday. You just said you would not be there.
So here I am. Trying to find a path. Feeling nothing. And smiling. :D :cry: :cry: :cry:
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What is true today is that my therapist has told me today that she is leaving in July, and that she wants me to consider
a Whether therapy is right for me or not, because it does me so much harm. :? :? :?
b What kind of therapy I need
Therapy didn't harm you -- she did!!!! This woman is an idiot.
So that, if we think there is a continuing need, she can make appropriate arrangements for a referral elsewhere. I do not know where this would be or who it would be with. Very vague. Very unsafe. :?
Most of the time in the USA, people do get doctors by referral. But we can decide *not* to see them if we don't like them. We aren't stuck with them. Maybe you would be, so I can see your apprehension. Especially if this loser therapist refers you.
Then she said 'how are you feeling?'
SHE SUCKS.
My feeling: It is ironic that British psychoanalysts pretty much invented the way psychotherapy is done today. Yet the therapists in Britain are absolutely clueless. Don't they get it?! You need a therapist who can hold and contain unmanageable feelings. That is called "dynamic psychotherapy." If you can get a person with this background, who isn't a fool, I think they can help you.
Excuse me but I'm so mad at your therapist.
bunny
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I said, the feelings have to wait. I am trying to find a path. I told her that she has been detaching from me for some weeks, and she was surprised to hear this. I told her that she has kept on disappearing, and she said 'I went on holiday'. So I said, you did not tell me it was a holiday. You just said you would not be there.
Oh man, I somehow missed this exchange. SHE SHOULD NOT BE DOING THERAPY. I think she's cut out for something else, possibly defense law. What is with the "I went on holiday" crap? Doesn't she understand *anything* about therapy??
bunny
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Me too. (mad) what a horrible therapist! My jaw in on the floor.
Good for you, for saying "feelings will have to wait". She drops this bomb, and then asks how you are "feeling"??? GRRRRRR :evil:
You say you are smiling? Is that because you kept your boundary (not sharing with this fool?) Good for you!!
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Thanks, Bunny and Mum.
Now struggling with SI+. Not about to spell out what that means in English; it is x rated.
Have entered severe dissociative state. Helps a lot. Sadly, makes x rated stuff more possible, but I think still safe enough. Stupid to be in this state.
But I have spoken to my 'surrogate mum' friend, Brenda. She is always there for me, which helps a lot. I will ring her again in a couple of days, or maybe go visit her, if I can. Haven't seen her for some months.
Also, C has given me her dad's reasons for seeing her. I told him to tell them to me, but he told her instead. This is what he has said:
C wants to see me
C misses me
I miss C
C likes going to <park>
C likes going to <icecream shop>
C likes going to <her favourite shop>
Does this sound like a 46 year old father discussing the emotional needs of his child? He has turned her into the subject of most of them, but in a way that seems to be an emotional hook of some kind, rather than focussing on what her actual needs are. To me it sounds like a child has written it. C wanted to know what I think and I said I will discuss it with your dad. 8)
This week's to do list now includes finding lawyer to take with me to next meeting at the school, and investigate UK legislation regarding school attendance, in particular in relation to children with chronic illness. :oops:
Can somebody please get this roundabout to at least slow down a little? I know I can't get off, but I am really feeling sick. Allegory is a wonderful thing.
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Doesn't she understand *anything* about therapy??
bunny
Not the kind I need. She told me that I am not going to find a therapist who will be available for me 52 weeks a year.
I don't recall ever saying that was what I needed, strangely enough. :?
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You need a therapist who can hold and contain unmanageable feelings. That is called "dynamic psychotherapy." If you can get a person with this background, who isn't a fool, I think they can help you.
Excuse me but I'm so mad at your therapist.
bunny
Thank you for being mad. That helps. :) I don't know about the dynamic psychotherapy you described, but I understand holding and containing unmanageable feelings. That is what I am doing, I think.
Sorry if I sound distant. I am. Sorry.
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She told me that I am not going to find a therapist who will be available for me 52 weeks a year.
How does SHE know?? Don't listen to her!!!
bunny
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How does SHE know?? Don't listen to her!!!
bunny
Well, as with any other job, I would think it would be sensible for one person to cover for another. I used to work in PR, and had clients paying big money for the Old Rope we sold them :twisted: and we would never tell them, sorry, you are never going to get PR coverage 52 weeks a year. But we all had holidays.
Complete nonsense, imo. I know medicine is not the same as business, but if she is going to call me a 'client' then surely that means treating me as one? As if I am more important than anything else.
Taking short break from spring cleaning whole house to visit here. May as well make use of trauma effects to achieve more than normally possible. :twisted:
Current status: Retraumatisation caused by rejection, abandonment and invisibility. Layers now too numerous to count. Maybe ten? Maybe twenty? Maybe a thousand. :(
Impact: Dissociation. Flashbacks. Disturbed sleep. Scarey SI. Social withdrawal. Hoovering places that have never been hoovered before (including ceilings and wallpaper). :lol: :lol: :lol:
Prognosis: Good enough. Because still laughing. :? :lol: :lol: :lol: :cry: :cry:
Risk of S: imminent as soon as whole house is clean, grass cut, daughter 35 years old. 8) 8)
I wish I were dead. But I am not going to do it. God, please kill me now. :cry: :cry: :cry:
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Hiya October:
Maybe slow down a little? I know it's not easy but everything doesn't have to be solved today.....so for just today.....give yourself a wee break?
1. You WILL get a referral to another therapist and the next person may be just the right one!! You might have a wonderful support just around the corner. Imagine that? A T you feel comfy with and trust?
I heard once that if you EXPECT and ANTICIPATE something strongly enough, it will materialize. The trick is total belief and expectation/anticipation.
Years ago, I used to shop at the same mall, every week, and do my banking/browsing etc there. Every week I had to park a way in the back of the lot, and push a stroller with my small child in it, through snow/slush/rain/sleet whatnot, to get into the mall. Then I heard this strange idea (above). I started expecting a specific parking spot that was exactly the one I wanted, very close to the mall entrance, prior to driving into the lot, each week. Really, really believing it would be there.
Guess what happened? I swear......from then on.....every single time I did that, I would drive in and there would be A spot, close to the doors of the mall. It could have been a coincidence but if it was, it was still very weird because for so many, many times before that, I'd had to park far away, just about every single time.
So EXPECT and ANTICIPATE and BELIEVE....that your new T will be satisfactory, trustworthy and that you will feel comfortable with him/her! It can't hurt!!
2. EXPECT and ANTICIPATE and BELIEVE that you will find a lawyer that will assist you in a satisfactory manner re the school. It can't hurt.
3. This won't last forever. EXPECT and ANTICIPATE and BELEIVE things to be better soon. It can't hurt!
(((((((((((((October))))))))))))))
Sorry it's so hard right now. :( Hope this helps a little.
GFN
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October,
Don't let your therapist destroy you. She should not be a therapist, she can't be taken seriously, and frankly I wish you wouldn't see her again. She does far more harm than good, because she is ignorant. She doesn't even understand dissociation, splitting, abandonment, constant objects. She isn't worth it. You never know what's around the corner and it may be a decent therapist.
take care,
bunny
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October --
This therapist is not a good person. So she would naturally be a lousy therapist. She smells N'ish to me. Sorry if this sounds judgmental, but what other kind of person chooses a profession that brings harmed souls to her doorstep and makes them dependent on her for help, then brushes them off and dances away while mocking their pain?
The meanness is appalling. Never mind the cluelessness.
You, dear soul, have been retraumatized by this at best incompetent and at worst malicious person. Your soul knows this, I see it in your posts. Please, don't despair, remember the wheat and tares, remember that we are here for you in cyberspace.
I wish we were able to make you a cuppa and sit with you in realspace. I expect it'd be SRO in the house, we'd be all over it to be there for you, hanging from the light fixtures if there wasn't anywhere else for us to be. (Visualize us perched in a row along the mantelpiece like so many Toby mugs.)
You are loved here. You are valued here. Please accept that as the accurate estimate of your worth, and let this sick joke of a 'helping professional' go to perdition.
Is there any way at all for you to go 'outside the system' and find a Jungian therapist? You need so badly to find someone who is in tune with both your spirituality and your awareness of the interpenetrating nature of the spiritual world with the material one.
Praying for you without ceasing, dear one.
((((((((((October))))))))))
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I started expecting a specific parking spot that was exactly the one I wanted, very close to the mall entrance, prior to driving into the lot, each week. Really, really believing it would be there.
Guess what happened? I swear......from then on.....every single time I did that, I would drive in and there would be A spot, close to the doors of the mall.
Strangely enough, I do this. I drive to the door of the store, and then start to look for a space. Mostly there is one. Sometimes not, but mostly there is. I say to C so what if it is busy? We only need one little space. :lol: :lol:
I am not sure I can do the 'next therapist' thing, though. It may not be possible. Doctors are not possible either, at present. I can take C, but I can't go on my own behalf any more. I have been hurt too many times. To carry on looks like being stupid now. :oops: :oops:
However, I will share what happened last night. I managed to clean all downstairs and half the bathroom before running out of steam. Then my neighbour cut her front lawn, and I spoke with her and said mine could wait. I told her about t leaving, and she said that must be devastating for you, and I said, it is rather. Then she brought her mower over for me and plugged it in, and I tried to do the lawn, but she could see it was a bit too heavy, so she did it for me, and I made the tea. :oops: :lol: :oops: Then we stood outside the house drinking tea, and admiring our lawns like two old women. Which is what we are. :lol: :lol: I have lovely neighbours. So the front is cut, and looking much better, and things like that lift your spirits a bit. :)
Anyway, after all that, later on C was in bed and asleep, and I was trying to read, but the words couldn't get past the flashbacks, so I stopped trying and just lay there, and a picture came into my mind from somewhere/nowhere. I was totally alone in the whole universe. Everyone had gone. Died. Disappeared. Nobody at all. Then there was another figure there, of an angel, very tall. He was close to me, and looking at me. And he came and wrapped his wings around me, and I felt safe. I didn't sleep straight away. The flashbacks came again, and I had to try to read to get rid of them, but the angel stayed as well, somewhere in the background.
Hang on, I'll see if he is still here.... yes, still here beside me, still with his wings holding me like a hug. No need to worry. :)
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October,
Don't let your therapist destroy you. ...
Thanks, Bun. I need to go back because she has some of my writing and I want it back. Or I might write and ask for it. But I don't think I will be seeing her much more, if at all.
Certainly the 'therapy' bit has gone completely. Just like the last t I had. Took me six months to recover from him, before I was fit to be referred to this one. :shock:
What is this all about???????? Can I not read a book instead?? Never yet been damaged by a book. If I don't like them, I close the cover and chuck them in the bin. :lol: :lol:
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I wish we were able to make you a cuppa and sit with you in realspace. I expect it'd be SRO in the house, we'd be all over it to be there for you, hanging from the light fixtures if there wasn't anywhere else for us to be. (Visualize us perched in a row along the mantelpiece like so many Toby mugs.)
You are loved here. You are valued here. Please accept that as the accurate estimate of your worth, and let this sick joke of a 'helping professional' go to perdition.
Is there any way at all for you to go 'outside the system' and find a Jungian therapist? You need so badly to find someone who is in tune with both your spirituality and your awareness of the interpenetrating nature of the spiritual world with the material one.
Praying for you without ceasing, dear one.
((((((((((October))))))))))
Thanks, Storm. That cup of tea sounds lovely. Or we could be really decadent and have Cafe Latte made with evaporated milk. Damn!!! No evaporated milk left. I wonder if I could make it to the shops?? :oops: :oops: Maybe tomorrow.
I started off outside the system, paying to go privately, because I was sooooo afraid of the NHS provision for mental health. I don't know if anyone has heard of the Priory in Southgate, where all the celebs go. I started there, with a Dr who is quite well known - better not say the name, but lots of letters after his name. He didn't even make a correct diagnosis; he stuck with the diagnosis from my GP of depression.
Took me years to find out it was more than that. Meanwhile, several thousands were all spent and my job was gone. If I were strong enough, maybe there would be a case for medical negligence, to at least get my money back so I could spend it properly to get help. But I am not strong enough to face anything like that.
So now there is no choice. NHS or nothing. At the moment, nothing is looking rather attractive. I may not ever get better, but I won't get worse quite so dramatically.
Or maybe there is no cure. Maybe this is all there is. Social phobia. Depression. Fear of doctors (whatever that is called :lol: ). I will just turn into a batty old lady who never leaves her house, and is never seen by the neighbours. I can see that, so clearly, as the future. I needed to find another future, but I can't do it. :cry: :cry: It is like being in a bad dream, where you try and try and try to get away from something, and it still gets closer, whatever you do. That is what it is like.
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Hi October:
I will just turn into a batty old lady who never leaves her house, and is never seen by the neighbours. I can see that, so clearly, as the future.
Do you realize that you are choosing what to think/envision/do in the future?
What is the reason why you won't decide to envision yourself as a happy, healthy, outgoing, sweet little old lady, with lot's of friends, who enjoys life to the fullest?
I'm being kind of firm here, October. Please don't take this as some kind of criticism. It's a firm suggestion that is meant to give you another perspective.
You, indeed, have the power, in your own head, to decide
to think what you want.
What do you want?
(((((((((((October))))))))))))
GFN
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Hello October,
This is what your therapist is woefully ignorant of:
Child Development: Mahler's Object Constancy Phase
24 to 36 months
Child better able to cope with mother's absence and engage substitutes
Child can begin to feel comfortable with mother's absences by knowing she will return
Gradual internalization of image of mother as reliable and stable
Through increasing verbal skills and better sense of time, child can tolerate delay and endure separations
If a therapist is so dumb, and so ignorant, that she is unaware of this, she will not understand anything and will retraumatize you. I hope you get your writings back from this b****.
{{{{ hang in there - we are here }}}
bunny
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Here's another thing she doesn't know about:
Mahler's Third Subphase - Rapprochement
16 to 24 months
Infant now a toddler -- more aware of physical separateness, which dampens mood of elation
Child tries to bridge gap between himself and mother -- concretely seen as bringing objects to mother
Mother's efforts to help toddler often not perceived as helpful, temper tantrums typical
Characteristic event: rapprochement crisis. Wanting to be soothed by mother and yet not be able to accept her help
Symbol of rapprochement: child standing on threshold of door not knowing wich way to turn in helpless frustration
Resolution of crisis occurs as child's skills improve and child able to get gratification from doing things himself
bunny
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Hi October, glad you have a neighbour you can chat to. It's worth a lot you know? I'm discovering that by offering to do their gardening (weeding). One made me a real coffee yesterday, which is a treat for me. Underneath all the polite social chat, people are very similar. Afraid etc.
I like your angel. It's a He too? Did you see the film where John Travolta was a fag-smoking angel who smelt of cookies? Great film. I keep seeing references to your flashbacks and you know how curious I am. Do you want to talk about them, what they're about? If not, no problema, but I thought I'd ask. Because I'm nosy. I apologise for the NHS even though I'm not at all responsible for the service. I'm just plain disgusted by mental health provision. What's the point in keeping people physically healthy if they go nuts? :roll: Maybe we're still in denial in the UK. Yep, reckon so. Load up on the anti-deps and go get a hobby (oh, and don't think too much)! It makes me mad. Take care October
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You, indeed, have the power, in your own head, to decide
to think what you want.
What do you want?
(((((((((((October))))))))))))
GFN
When a therapist asks me that question I never answer, because they are not able to hear the answer. But just for you, I will answer it.
I want to be dead.
Happy now?? :? But that is not me. That is a symptom. Same as the vision of the future. It is these things I am fighting to escape from, rather than making happen. If I do nothing, they happen. I have not yet given up trying, but when I do, that is the future.
It is very easy with illness to blame the patient for the symptom. It does not help the patient. But life is not an ATM machine, and to suggest that it is puts the blame on anyone poor, or unwell, or disadvantaged, for the life they have. This is medieval thinking, where the person stricken with plague was reckoned cursed by God and therefore getting what they deserve.
I appreciate that you care, but I am not sure your comments are helpful. For one thing you picked up on the negative at the end of my post, but ignored the positive at the start. You can't have it both ways; either I am an optimistic person struggling womanfully with a desperate situation, or else I am bringing it all on myself by negativity. I would suggest that the former interpretation is nearer my own truth and that of anyone who truly knows me.
I acknowlege that positive thinking has a role to play, but if you can see no evidence of that kind of positivity in my writing, then that just amazes me. :?
But you are, of course, entitled to retain your own view, against the evidence, if you prefer.
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{{{{ hang in there - we are here }}}
bunny
Thank you for your posts, Bunny. I will look into the things you have listed, and try to learn more. I have a book on this subject, called the Inner Child workbook. It looks really good, but so far I can't get past a brief reading of it, because it is too distressing on my own. But I keep trying, every now and then. :oops: I can read the examples, but I can't fill in the exercises. :oops: :oops:
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Hi October, glad you have a neighbour you can chat to. It's worth a lot you know?
I keep seeing references to your flashbacks and you know how curious I am. Do you want to talk about them, what they're about? If not, no problema, but I thought I'd ask.
Hiya P
The angel is kind of neither he or she, but it seems a bit rude to say 'it'. :) And it is made of light, but light you can feel the same as you feel people. Sorry, sounds weird. It is like when you walk towards a house and you can always tell if the people are home or not before you ring. Same kind of feeling; someone is there.
I always wanted to write an article about the links between trauma and mysticism. One of these days ... I don't think I saw the film you mentioned. I will have to look out for it.
You don't need to apologise for the NHS - it is as much my fault as anyone else's. I dare say we get the health service we deserve, as a nation.
My PC is playing up tonight. This is my second attempt at answering this one, and most of the emoticons have disappeared, so can't use them. : (
Flashbacks are memories that won't go away. Everyone has them sometimes, after something particularly nasty happens. Supposedly, they are caused by a failure of processing. The memory loops because the mind is trying to process the event, but can't. So it keeps looping over and over. Very wearing. It can last months or even years. Sometimes you suppress the memory, and even forget it completely. Then years later it gets triggered by another event, and the looping begins again.
What I get is the current event looping, and the hidden trigger situation is so far away by now that I don't see it. But sometimes the layers unravel and I get one event leading into another and another and another, then repeating through the sequence. Not very nice.
I stay at home because I don't get flashbacks of lying in bed reading. I do get flashbacks of emails, or message board messages, if they are distressing, though. But sometimes you have to pay a price for being connected, and I take the chance. If things get too bad I disappear for a few days or weeks or change site for a while.
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October,
There is no way I could work with the "inner child" even now. But I am okay reading about child development in general. A therapist HAS to know this stuff or they are dangerous. All therapy patients are to be understood as children at some level. It's not your job to see your own self as a child unless you can handle it. The main thing is, there is a thing called object constancy. This is the ability to survive separations from perceived caregivers, to realize that people are there even if they aren't in the room or on the phone. Many of us have weak object constancy or it's not there at all. A therapist is supposed to help us strengthen this if we didn't get to it earlier. All therapists are supposed to look at object constancy of their patients when they go on holiday or on trips. They have to see if their patient is going to need a substitute therapist, postcards, phone calls, or some way to deal with the separation.
bunny
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October,
There is no way I could work with the "inner child" even now. But I am okay reading about child development in general. A therapist HAS to know this stuff or they are dangerous. All therapy patients are to be understood as children at some level. It's not your job to see your own self as a child unless you can handle it. The main thing is, there is a thing called object constancy. This is the ability to survive separations from perceived caregivers, to realize that people are there even if they aren't in the room or on the phone. Many of us have weak object constancy or it's not there at all. A therapist is supposed to help us strengthen this if we didn't get to it earlier. All therapists are supposed to look at object constancy of their patients when they go on holiday or on trips. They have to see if their patient is going to need a substitute therapist, postcards, phone calls, or some way to deal with the separation.
bunny
This all makes such a lot of sense. Thank you.
If my t were giving swimming lessons, I think what she would do is to make people jump off the diving board into the deep end, then say 'now start swimming'. Then she would go on holiday.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Unless people are with me I don't believe that they exist. I have to logically assume that they do, but I don't believe it inside. Strangely, thinking about it, my dentist seems to be a moderate kind of exception to this. Not sure why, but he is more real. Could be to do with touch. I don't touch anyone, and nobody touches me.
Trauma makes this more real. It wipes out everyone on earth all in one go. Or perhaps another way of saying it is that earth is still there, somewhere, but I am somewhere else. Like standing on the moon, looking at home, and being very alone. This is so painful that dissociation takes over and numbs the pain, so you look back and don't care any more.
Thanks for being there, Bunny. Wherever you are. Good job there is internet connection on the moon. :lol: :lol:
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Hi October,
See, a therapist who works with you (with any intelligence) would realize quickly that you go to a "very young place" that is before words and rational thoughts. This intelligent and knowledgable therapist would know how to work with that. If they retraumatized you, they would be interested, in a non-defensive way, to hear how they did it. Maybe your dentist is an innately understanding person who "gets" where a person is at and accepts it. I'm sure the touching is significant as well.
bunny
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I don't touch anyone, and nobody touches me.
October: I am sad when I read that. I remember after my father's funeral, I was sitting with my mom in a large armchair at my brother's house. I had my arm around her, and when I got up to leave the chair, she said, "no...please keep your arm around me a while"....and through tears, added, "I will miss touch so much." Now, in her twilight, family members simply sit and hold her hand for hours....I can imagine after having nine chilren that this is so important to her. She knows it's importance as she massaged all of us as babies regularly...a real pioneer, she was.
I also have a friend who for various reasons, has no "special someone" including children, in her life. We hug, etc, but she says the lack of physicality is really hard. She has found an enormous amount of relief in massage therapy. She said it has not only helped her with various post cancer muscle problems....but it reminds her what it is to be touched with caring.
Is this too far out of the realm for you?
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Maybe your dentist is an innately understanding person who "gets" where a person is at and accepts it. I'm sure the touching is significant as well.
bunny
Yes. When I go to pieces a bit (from fear) he says things like, 'don't worry. We've been friends a long time'. I know as well as he does that we are not friends in the real sense, but there is no need for apologies or explanations. Just acceptance. Good job I can still manage that. :lol:
At present I have a real fear of ever seeing even my GP again, but when I think of the dentist, that is not a problem. Well, no more than going shopping. :?
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Is this too far out of the realm for you?
Massage would be too scarey. Too personal. I might even have to take some clothes off!! :shock:
I can touch C ok, although she is growing up, so there is less contact than when she was little, when we had lots of nice cuddly times. Less so now, unless she is not too well. I try to let her decide what she needs and when.
When I went to tell my brother that I was pregnant, straight after seeing the GP, because he worked just round the corner from there, he was really pleased, and he shook my hand. :? Since then he and I have touched maybe twice. That is kind of normal for my family. Weird, but normal. He can hug his kids (and so can I), I can hug C (although he can't) and we never ever touch one another, even in passing.
It looks as though there is an unwritten rule relating to incest in operation here, due to repression of something or other. Feelings of love. A ringfence around the Torah. (Extra laws around the Law, in order to ensure the sanctity of the central Law.) So the concept of 'safe touch' never exists.
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Hi again October:
When a therapist asks me that question I never answer, because they are not able to hear the answer. But just for you, I will answer it.
I want to be dead.
Well, thankyou for answering it and in that case, I'm glad you're not giving yourself what you want.
What's your second choice?
Happy now??
Why would you ask that? I'm just curious. I would never be happy to know that you feel that way. Did you think I would be happy to know this?
But that is not me. That is a symptom.
I think you're saying that you're wanting to be dead is a symptom?
Same as the vision of the future.
I'm not convinced that these two are the same. You may be right, but in that case, that would mean you have absolutely no control over what you think, what visions are created, etc in your mind. Sometimes, we choose not to dream.
It is these things I am fighting to escape from, rather than making happen. If I do nothing, they happen.
Yes. That happens to me too, believe it or not (some thoughts just happen, I mean...especially if I do nothing to try to counteract that process). But.....do you ever just lie in your bed and try to imagine yourself happy....doing something you like......or remembering something you enjoyed from the past? I bet you do that sometimes?
I have not yet given up trying,
I'm glad to hear that! Good for you October.
It is very easy with illness to blame the patient for the symptom. It does not help the patient. But life is not an ATM machine, and to suggest that it is puts the blame on anyone poor, or unwell, or disadvantaged, for the life they have. This is medieval thinking, where the person stricken with plague was reckoned cursed by God and therefore getting what they deserve.
Is that what you think? That I am blaming you for your illness/symptom? Do you feel like I'm putting blame on you by asking if you realize you have a great power? If you don't have that power, who does? This isn't to suggest that you can rid your mind of unhelpful thoughts. It just means pretending a little, sometimes. See what I mean? Maybe not. Maybe I'm not saying it right.
I appreciate that you care, but I am not sure your comments are helpful.
Sorry October. Sorry if I annoyed you.
For one thing you picked up on the negative at the end of my post, but ignored the positive at the start.
Very true. Do you always pick up and comment on the positives in people's posts, all of the time, first? I don't always do that. :oops:
You can't have it both ways; either I am an optimistic person struggling womanfully with a desperate situation, or else I am bringing it all on myself by negativity. I would suggest that the former interpretation is nearer my own truth and that of anyone who truly knows me.
For me, some days I'm one and other days, another. It varies with my mood, hormones, how many people get in my face, how positive I feel, and how hard I try, and how determined I am to focus. I'm not always one or the other.
I acknowlege that positive thinking has a role to play,
I'm glad you agree and really, this was all I was trying to point out and I do appologize for not doing it more gently.
... but if you can see no evidence of that kind of positivity in my writing, then that just amazes me.
Wait a minute October, did I say that? I don't think that. Are you thinking up stuff....negative stuff and then deciding that's what I see? That's not what I see, October.
But you are, of course, entitled to retain your own view, against the evidence, if you prefer.
Yep. I think I annoyed you. Sorry October. Not what I meant to do at all.
GFN
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Hi GFN,
This is a total butt in but I have a bit of feedback. In some cases, asking a lot of questions isn't the way to go. The person isn't in that cognitive place. Especially if they mentioned dissociation. They can be reached other ways but not with questions and cognitive examples. Do you know what I mean?
bunny
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October - the title of the film Portia recommended is "Michael", it does indeed star John Travolta, and it was written by Nora Ephron, who also directed it. [I've surprised myself by being very wrong about some of this stuff when I've posted to this board in the past, so this time I did my homework up front, and here's a URL for a review: http://www.stairwell.com/doc/exam/michael.html ]
I am terribly sorry about the finances and the lousy treatment you received at the private facility. Is there any chance at all of your being able to find a decent, psych-trained Diocesan priest to talk with in a pastoral care kind of setting?
Or could your vicar [in his better moments] maybe refer you to someone he knows, in ministry, for pastoral care? That is supposed to be low-cost to no-cost, and the Jungian archetypes are not at all incompatible with the sacred calling, so you might get some decent help that way. If he has any connections with university-level theologians who train folks in pastoral care... that is probably the level of spiritual and psychological understanding that you would be best helped by. It's hard to find, but I'll pray for you and light candles and everything else that I can think of.
I am so sorry, dear October. I know that standing-on-the-moon feeling you describe, although I came there by a different route. It does pass, but you know that already.
I'm glad you have an angelic guardian caring for you, and even more glad that you are aware of their presence...
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I'm glad you have an angelic guardian caring for you, and even more glad that you are aware of their presence...
Thanks, Stormy. Even more importantly to me, I have someone else who needs my prayers and love (such as it is) at the moment. Saves me falling into my own navel. :?
So, any spare thoughts for the Blessed Brenda, :wink: who is in lots of pain at present. She hurt her back last Saturday and has hardly been able to sleep since. She is the nearest I have to a mum of the real kind, and I need her to stay with us for a while longer, DV. (she has a v weak heart and has had heart surgery twice, ten years ago and last year.)
GFN, thanks for the love. Can't cope with the logic and the reasoning bit at present; like reading Chinese. But this place certainly wouldn't be the same without you.
((((safe hugs to everyone))))
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Written by yrs trly in 1999. Still true today. I can hear GFN saying 'walk out of that d*** corner!!' as I post it. :lol: :lol: :lol:
The Angel
I am trapped in a corner
and the devil is throwing stones
and trying to kill me.
But the angel kisses each one
and it turns into a flower.
And the petals fall around my head
and at my feet.
And it is good.
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Thanks Stormchild, that’s the one, I liked that film. Simple but deep.
Hiya October.
Massage would be too scarey. Too personal.
Agreed. Why put myself into an anxiety state for something that’s supposed to be a treat? So I won’t do it. It would be a complete waste of money for me. Just because other people do it, doesn’t mean I have to. Maybe I’ll try it one day.
When I went to tell my brother that I was pregnant, straight after seeing the GP, because he worked just round the corner from there, he was really pleased, and he shook my hand. Since then he and I have touched maybe twice. That is kind of normal for my family. Weird, but normal. He can hug his kids (and so can I), I can hug C (although he can't) and we never ever touch one another, even in passing.
I think this is weird but very normal for many, many families. And a lot of touch is used as a method of control, especially in business. Hand on the back = I’m in charge, hand on the arm = shut up I’m talking etc. I hate it. I have very little touch in my life. Why should that be a problem?
It looks as though there is an unwritten rule relating to incest in operation here, due to repression of something or other. Feelings of love. A ringfence around the Torah. (Extra laws around the Law, in order to ensure the sanctity of the central Law.) So the concept of 'safe touch' never exists.
I don’t imagine it’s repression of feelings of love. Do you think your mother is repressing love? Maybe there is love in your family that is repressed. Wow. I can’t imagine that. I just know there’s no repressed love in my family. It just isn’t there, the participants in the ‘family’ (what is ‘family’ anyway) aren’t capable of it. Maybe that makes it easier for me to accept?
To me the concept of ‘safe touch’ is almost a contradiction in terms. Almost. But then I’m weird, so what, it’s my thing. Maybe I’ll change. Does it bother me? Not a lot.
I want to ask you, I was thinking about this last night, have you ever wept because you were sad? I don’t mean crying from anger, frustration, tiredness etc. I mean weeping from sadness perhaps about a loss, maybe a bereavement. Or perhaps finding yourself crying at some inhumanity. Have you experienced this?
Another question I just thought of, was your therapist seeing you for a particular 'label' as such? E.g. specifically seeing you for 'social phobia' or 'depression' or whatever? This might have a bearing on her somewhat less than perfect approach I guess. :?
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I don’t imagine it’s repression of feelings of love. Do you think your mother is repressing love? Maybe there is love in your family that is repressed. Wow. I can’t imagine that. I just know there’s no repressed love in my family. It just isn’t there, the participants in the ‘family’ (what is ‘family’ anyway) aren’t capable of it. Maybe that makes it easier for me to accept?
All I know is that when my goddaughter was born my brother told me he would never ever take her on his knee to give her a cuddle, in case anyone thought he was wanting to interfere with her. I said, who would think that in a million years? But he still never did it. Then, when my daughter was born, and he came to visit, straight away I gave her to him to hold, and he did it, but he never volunteered to do it. He is very uncomfortable with touch, and it relates to rules about what is and what is not allowed.
My mum doesn't know what love is, and whatever emotions she has certainly don't get repressed; they are there. But the rest of us, well, very little honest expression allowed there, of any kind.
To me the concept of ‘safe touch’ is almost a contradiction in terms. Almost. But then I’m weird, so what, it’s my thing. Maybe I’ll change. Does it bother me? Not a lot.
Me too. But I can give a lot more hugs, or even kisses, here than I can in real life. Once in a while I have a hug with a friend, but it is rare, and I am never quite happy until we let go again. Isn't it horrible when the other person has a longer 'hug threshold' than you do, and you keep trying to disengage and they are still hugging away. <shudder!!!> :lol:
I want to ask you, I was thinking about this last night, have you ever wept because you were sad? I don’t mean crying from anger, frustration, tiredness etc. I mean weeping from sadness perhaps about a loss, maybe a bereavement. Or perhaps finding yourself crying at some inhumanity. Have you experienced this?
Not sure, to be honest. Sometimes I remember my granddad and I cry then, but not for long. But that is another story.
Another question I just thought of, was your therapist seeing you for a particular 'label' as such? E.g. specifically seeing you for 'social phobia' or 'depression' or whatever? This might have a bearing on her somewhat less than perfect approach I guess. :?
Should have been for ptsd, but there are no ptsd practitioners here. She is a generalist in adult mental health, she told me on Monday, rather than a specialist. To which I said a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. From now on I need either a specialist in ptsd, who does nothing else, or nothing at all, imo. I don't think that what she did was necessarily wrong, but certainly, for me, the way she did it was very dangerous. I have had to contain so much danger (sorry, can't think of less emotive word) for so long, and I am left drained, and very let down. You don't realise how much your life is built around hope of recovery until it stops.
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October, I had a thought.
Try contacting a fellow named Tim Field, who has a business called Success Unlimited. He counsels survivors of workplace bullying. He understands cptsd, and he is in the UK.
You wouldn't have to go into details, just ask him if he knows anyone who specializes in cptsd... he surely must, and they might be near you, or be able to refer you to someone nearby.
Let me see if I can find a link to his site.
Yep - here it is:
http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/
I hope this helps... his site links to the Andrea Adams Trust which is also devoted to the issue of workplace bullying and cptsd. I know your cptsd has other origins but I think being retraumatized at work would make it perfectly legitimate for you to check out this option. At the very least, there should be some folks in this area who will have a clue about what you're feeling...
((((((((((October))))))))))
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GFN, thanks for the love. Can't cope with the logic and the reasoning bit at present; like reading Chinese. But this place certainly wouldn't be the same without you.
I'm glad you felt "love" October (cyber love eh?? 8) Isn't it cool???).
Hopefully you're feeling better and you will be able to cope with the much more logic and reasoning real soon (so I'm posting this now and you can re-read it later....if it doesn't compute now..but I think it might). You are valued here, very much too, October. I'm sure by many more people than just me. :D
What I might have been better to say would have been something like:
"I see your vivid imagination and your potential to recreate your vision into something really good and positive for the future".
One of my favorite little childhood stories, that I read to my children many, many times (often at their request too) is called:
"The little engine that could". Do you know that one? Where the hill is soooo big--seems impossible to get up..... and the little engine decides to think he can make it up the hill and as he tries so hard to climb it, he keeps telling himself: "I think I can! I think I can!" and he finally gets to the top, by shear determination and ......by his own believing in himself??
I love that little story. I think it says a lot. It's not always easy to be like the little engine but it is possible....a real possibility. My hope is that you will decide to believe you can October! Because you can!!! That's what I see!
October can! She might be a little engine and she might not think she can right now, but she can change her mind about all of that, if she decides to, and tell herself:
"I think I can! I think I can!" and work her way up that long, steep hill.
(I think you're trying really hard and are a bit discouraged right now--the darn hill is soo long and steep and seems endless!!).
Written by yrs trly in 1999. Still true today. I can hear GFN saying 'walk out of that d*** corner!!' as I post it.
That is soo cool 8) what you wrote!! The angel turning stones into lovely flower petals!! You feel trapped in the corner? :( :(
I see you noticing that the corner has only 2 sides and I see you taking steps away from it, with your little angel pitching the flower petals on the floor, leading you in the right direction!! I see your potential to notice that!
Yes October!! Come out of that stinking corner!! I think you can! I think you can!!! :D :D :D
Hey Bunny thanks! I'm not really getting it though (as you can probably see from this post).
They can be reached other ways but not with questions and cognitive examples.
What other ways do you mean?
GFN
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GFN,
What I mean is this...there is a time for asking people a bunch of questions to make them reflect and get curious about their own process. There is also a time not to do that. Not everyone is in the place of wanting to be asked questions. When someone is vulnerable and regressed, questions can feel extremely intrusive and even like an attack. In fact there were times I did not want to post about something because I thought you would do all this questioning and suggesting, which frankly was going to make me feel much worse. And I KNOW your intentions would be good but that wouldn't really help me. So I was projecting onto October here. The way I would like to be reached when I'm vulnerable, regressed, and going in and out of adult cognition, is for someone to be gentle, nonjudgmental, not try to fix me, and not try to get me out of it. Just to hear me and let me know I'm not alone. Don't know if this makes any more sense or not.
bunny
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Hi Bunny:
I think what I hear you saying is that you think my questions are too many, timed inappropriately, not gentle enough and that you believe I am judging, trying to fix, not listening and that you feel more alone, when you read my posts, you feel intruded upon and attacked (which you projected onto October). Also that my questions and suggestions make you feel much worse.
That you didn't post because of what you thought I would do....ask questions or make suggestions of you, in the past sometimes, when you felt vunerable etc.
That you believe my intentions would be good but that doesn't help.
I think of suggestions as the person trying to help me, such as you are suggesting,...... that I not make suggestions or ask questions...to/of you, when you feel vunerable because it would make you feel worse. Also that other people might feel the same way, so you are suggesting I not do it. I also think of suggestions as optional...that they can be taken or not taken, as desired.
I think of questions as the other person trying to understand, or......as a way for the person to offer an idea to another...for them to consider for themself.....an idea...without stating that that idea is..absolute or best...but by asking if they have thought of it or might think of it etc.
I have different boundaries/thoughts and feelings regarding questions and suggestions than you do I guess. Not everyone is the same. You feel your boundaries are invaded when I ask questions or make suggestions. I get that.
It doesn't matter to you that my intentions are good.
Note: I haven't asked any questions or made any suggestions here, so I must have learned something. :D
(((((((((Bunny))))))))
GFN
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Hi Bunny:
I think what I hear you saying is that you think my questions are too many, timed inappropriately, not gentle enough and that you believe I am judging, trying to fix, not listening and that you feel more alone, when you read my posts, you feel intruded upon and attacked (which you projected onto October). Also that my questions and suggestions make you feel much worse.
I have no idea whether you're judging or not. I just don't like the questions and suggestions when I'm in a vulnerable state. It's not helpful to me at that time. It's out of attunement. It's not a time when I want someone to try to help me, to try to make me think of things that they think I should consider. In fact, I have probably considered all of it, as my mind can simultaneously do that. I can certainly disregard your questions/advice, and not respond to your post. But I've had feelings of not even wanting to see it there. There is freedom of speech here so I won't post about myself when that's how I feel. It's my issue, and I have to make my decisions. You don't have to do anything.
bunny
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I just don't like the questions and suggestions when I'm in a vulnerable state. It's not helpful to me at that time.
I remember posting to you re your "drama" thread. One thing I remember you wrote something like:
I hate myself for being so curious about people (that might be worded incorrectly but that was the basic idea I think you had said).
You could be associating my questions a little that way. It could be that you don't like this about yourself and therefore about me either. I think I said something to the effect that your curiosity is a gift. I stand by that statement, as my opinion, though it differs from yours. That's ok.
I can certainly disregard your questions/advice, and not respond to your post. But I've had feelings of not even wanting to see it there.
It sounds like you're saying that you don't want me to post to you....any questions or suggestion..when you feel vunerable.
I wasn't aware that I had done that and I'll try to remember not to do that again. My post to you in that thread must have made things worse. I'm very sorry Bunny.
It's my issue, and I have to make my decisions. You don't have to do anything.
Maybe it's my issue? Maybe you're right? Maybe I ask too many questions and make too many suggestions? Maybe I don't have to do anything but I would be wise to consider what you're saying?
I have to be honest. It feels very critical. That's ok, as you say, free speach and all but do you see the strong words you've used?
too many quesitons
judgemental
poor timing
not gentle (therefore what?)
trying to fix
not listening
intruding
attacking
makes people feel worse
I believe these are real thoughts and feelings for you Bunny and they are valid. You have a right to feel as you do. I'm not sure that it's fair or right to decide anyone else thinks/feels the same. They might. It might even be one of those power of suggestion things....where once said.....it happens.
I wish positive suggestions were taken that way more often and with the same lasting effect. Sometimes they are too. So that's good.
Anyhow Bunny, I don't know if you are feeling vunerable now and taking offense to my positive words to October or if I'm just irritating you by being alive. :D
I'll try not to make suggestions to you or ask you questions when it seems like you're feeling vunerable because you have made it clear how that makes you feel and I don't want to make things worse for you. I would rather you just know that I care and will do anything I can to help you feel better.
GFN
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You could be associating my questions a little that way. It could be that you don't like this about yourself and therefore about me either. I think I said something to the effect that your curiosity is a gift. I stand by that statement, as my opinion, though it differs from yours. That's ok.
Your assumption is inaccurate. I don't think your questions show a lot of curiosity. They are more about trying to "get me to think about your suggestions" which is not in attunement to my mental state. Sometimes the last thing I want is a suggestion. I don't think this is unique to me but I'm only talking about myself.
It sounds like you're saying that you don't want me to post to you....any questions or suggestion..when you feel vunerable.
I'd prefer that you don't but you can do whatever you want.
I wasn't aware that I had done that and I'll try to remember not to do that again. My post to you in that thread must have made things worse. I'm very sorry Bunny.
Thank you , I appreciate that very much.
Maybe it's my issue? Maybe you're right? Maybe I ask too many questions and make too many suggestions? Maybe I don't have to do anything but I would be wise to consider what you're saying?
Is this a rhetorical question.
I have to be honest. It feels very critical. That's ok, as you say, free speach and all but do you see the strong words you've used?
Yes I chose those words but not out of context as you listed them.
I don't care whether others feel the same way I do. I'm talking about myself. If you would kindly abstain from advice/suggestions it would make it easier for me to post. But you don't have to. There isn't censorship here and it's up to me to decide how to handle my own privacy or vulnerability issues.
I appreciate your consideration.
bunny
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Hi october and all. Im so sorry things are going that way for you october..... stupid therapist....... im so sorry to hear all that is happening....... glad to hear your getting cleaning done :} i was glad to hear about your angel. I have an angel too, i saw her first when i was about 3. used to be sooo scared of the dark and would lie there kind of frozen and not be able to sleep at all. (still not sure why). either way one night i saw this lady all in white in my room. she bent down over my bed and she had some kind of tray with some kind of food or treats or something that was meant to nourish and comfort me.
I saw her a couple more times as a child and now i know shes always around.. but doesnt show herself because she knows my nerves cant take it! but, I love it that i know shes there.
either way - dont want to hijack this thread, but ive been watching the exchange between bunny & gfn and hope to offer a viewpoint in the middle? i think its a good point that is kind of getting off track but ive noticed it also in other posts, and it bears mentioning.... if im out of line, just ignore it please, its just an opinion.
Bunny said:
What I mean is this...there is a time for asking people a bunch of questions to make them reflect and get curious about their own process. There is also a time not to do that. Not everyone is in the place of wanting to be asked questions. When someone is vulnerable and regressed, questions can feel extremely intrusive and even like an attack.
then GFN said:
Maybe it's my issue? Maybe you're right? Maybe I ask too many questions and make too many suggestions? Maybe I don't have to do anything but I would be wise to consider what you're saying?
this kind of dissolved into some unclarity but i think theres a middle ground....... this is my opinion now.. but IN MY OPINION. I think whats trying to be expressed is not that it is -never- ok to ask questions or be cognitive ever.... i think the point is that its important to be very sensitive to what people need, that diferent people need different things at different times. sometimes people want to be asked questions, sometimes questions are less helpful beuase the person is just too vulnerable right then.
sometimes a cognitive approach is what a person needs and sometimes emotional suport is all they can handle. it depends on where they are right then.
i have thought this before in other threads and i think the bottom line is to be sensitive to where a particular pereson is emotionally and whether or not a cognitive or emotional approach (or some other approach) is better in that particular situation...........
its very possible to be so vulnerable that really all you can stand is just someone holding your hand for a bit. then other times you are ready to hear and think about some questions. does that come down in the middle? sorry for hijacking october.
d's mom
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To GFN,
I've been reading the exchanges here. I would like that you should keep posting your way. I'm here learning about control issues, and when I read someone asking you to change your style to suit them and suggesting to you how to post to them, I sense serious control and other issues. It's good for people to learn to walk on by here when they're pricked. Helpful to understand that it's not always necessary to respond to others or try to control how others communicate. I find a lot of useful stuff in your posts that really helps me unravel some of my issues. Some questions that you asked someone here penetrated me and got me thinking about my stuff more clearly. If you have to walk on eggshells and change your whole style and the way you post, just to suit one other person then I thing that's a crying shame. Respect others for sure, but your questions and suggestions style seems mighty valid here. Gets the brain going. We've all got painful issues, and we are not all going to communicate perfectly with each, so tolerance and sometimes walking on by is a big key to working collboratively through things. We shouldn't be trying to change each other to suit ourselves so that we don't have to change. I like your style GFN. I'd hate to think that you are made to feel you can't post openly and in your way to any topic you have insight or interest on.
Keep up the good work GFN :D
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If you think I have SERIOUS control issues maybe you can walk on by instead of criticizing me in the guise of praising GFN. You're doing no one a favor here.
d's mom. Thank you for your post, you said it better than I did.
GFN, do whatever you want, I am just stating feelings.
bunny
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I'm no longer posting to this thread. Carry on.
bunny
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I'm no longer posting to this thread. Carry on.
bunny
Oh. This is a pity. Please don't let this happen you two. You two are of the most helpful to me. It's like seeing my two best friends fight.
How about when bunny doesn't want advice. she says in her post, "I really don't want any advice as I feel like I just want hugs and the like. I'll ask for advice later."
Would this work? Come on you guys.
Plucky Guest2
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sometimes a cognitive approach is what a person needs and sometimes emotional suport is all they can handle. it depends on where they are right then.
i have thought this before in other threads and i think the bottom line is to be sensitive to where a particular pereson is emotionally and whether or not a cognitive or emotional approach (or some other approach) is better in that particular situation...........
Respectfully, may I disagree......... :D slightly.
I think if you are a therapist or counsellor or psyche or moderator here, then it would be okay to have these expectations put upon you. But most of us aren't. Those of us here who are simply trying to deal with our own s..t don't have this level or understanding or responsibility, or perhaps not even the time to unravel what the other person's needs are. And in the end they are not our responsibility. Personally, I need the freedom to talk, ask, enquire, and try to understand a whole range of stuff I read here, to help me with my issues - firstly.
GFN does that very well. IMO. And it just so happens that it has helped me a lot. That is my point. The fact that some questions asked here or offers of suggestions here might, that unfortunately might touch on tender spots, make someone squirm is really their problem to deal with at thee nd of the day. And possibly even why that happens may be a good thing for the person to explore.
Just some ideas Guest
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sometimes a cognitive approach is what a person needs and sometimes emotional suport is all they can handle. it depends on where they are right then.
Respectfully, may I disagree......... :D slightly.
I think if you are a therapist or counsellor or psyche or moderator here, then it would be okay to have these expectations put upon you. But most of us aren't. Those of us here who are simply trying to deal with our own s..t don't have this level or understanding or responsibility, or perhaps not even the time to unravel what the other person's needs are.
hi guest,
im all for free speech and would never tell anyone what to do or how to be.... :} im glad you shared your view but a lot of what you said, strikes me kind of strange..
yes we dont have 'training' but..... you dont have time to unravel other peoples needs? isnt this at least partially about other peoples needs? isnt this at least partially a support group? are you saying you want to gain information at the expense of other people, particularly those people who are incredibly vulnerable? that sounds kind of strange to me. it doesnt take special training, to learn to be a more sensitive friend....
Personally, I need the freedom to talk, ask, enquire, and try to understand a whole range of stuff I read here, to help me with my issues - firstly.
I truly think that you are projecting here and reading into what has been said. someone asking that their wishes be respected in a support context is a totally valid thing to do, imo. if you see someone who is stating their preferences for communication, as invalidating you in some way, then I -personally- think you are having unclear boundaries. thats -only- my opinion.
GFN does that very well. IMO. And it just so happens that it has helped me a lot. That is my point.
im sure she could easily be getting peeved that all these people are discussing her behind her back so much! (sorry gfn!!!!) but, I think that she would know that id be the first to say i'm a huge fan of hers and she has helped me with all kinds of hugely important things. id be the first one to support her and say that. I also value her enough and trust her enough and respect her enough (again sorry to speak behind your back gfn) that I believe she is a big girl and can handle someone asking her for what they need.
that is a part of communication too, which as you say we are all learning to do.
The fact that some questions asked here or offers of suggestions here might, that unfortunately might touch on tender spots, make someone squirm is really their problem to deal with at thee nd of the day. And possibly even why that happens may be a good thing for the person to explore.
in normal situations, that could be true. when someone is dissociated, suicidal, or dealing with self-harm, it doesnt take an advanced degree to realise you are more careful with people like that... just some sensitivity. and if you -dont- know that, and they try to tell you, then a sensitive, supportive friend LISTENS. thats not censoring yourself, thats respecting someone else.
we could ask them a lot of wonderful intelligent questions and learn a ton about ourselves but if that person goes off and kills themselves becuase we failed to be sensitive to their needs, what has really been accomplished.......??....
for the most part, it is up to the individual to set their own boundaries and handle thier own triggers. in the case of extremely vulnerable people, why wouldnt they have the right to request greater sensitivity. they dont have the power to force anyone to do anything. but they do have the power to say what they need and want. why not?
ok gfn, I will not discuss you behind your back anymore. you know im a great fan.
so, those are some other thoughts. still not sure where you are coming from but I felt you wanted a reply.
d's mom
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When someone is vulnerable and regressed, questions can feel extremely intrusive and even like an attack.
bunny
This is true for me.
Thanks, Bunny.
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I'm no longer posting to this thread. Carry on.
bunny
I hope you are reading this, Bunny. Thank you for being there for me. I really appreciate it. :cry: :cry: :cry:
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To d's mum. Talking about the help that GFN's posts have been and are to people.
I find how you decided to present it quite odd. That you refer to what was said about how GFN's posts help someone as 'talking behind GFN's back' :shock: .
Someone is talking here openly - about something very positive :D about GFN. It wasn't in a pm in private behind backs. So I think it should be allowed to stand unfettered. That's my opinion.
Any-hoo I think this thread has lost the plot. Posters are getting nit-picky and silly and caught up in nonsense circular discusssions. And somehow or other, unfortunately,, :oops: sides and factions are forming. This always seems to happen when one person takes offence. Even more specially if bunny does. And specially because she's always been so helpful here and longstanding. It always happens that many who she has helped rush to her defence if she gets peeved with someone. But IMO bunny's a big girl and after all has a degree in Psychology. So more than most of us she knows enough about this place to know that it happens if she screams foul. I've seen it happen enough times now, and I find it a bit boring.
Bunny won't go and kill herself - as the poster suggested. Will you bunny?
I think it's good to remember that no one person here has the corner on vulnerability. We're all feeling vulnerable, and probably are vulnerable.
How about this everybody?
"We all appreciate you bunny. And you to GFN. And d'smum and October and anyone else who has bothered to care enough to think seriously and respond." :D
There is no point in bickering and criticising and making war on each other here! What a side-track that would be. If we feel we have to do that, let's bicker and criticise and make war on the real people and issues in our lives!
I don't think any of us here constitute being the real issues in each others lives. If we are, then I'd say we have much more serious mental or emotional problems than we realise. :D
Guest for now
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"We all appreciate you bunny. And you to GFN. And d'smum and October and anyone else who has bothered to care enough to think seriously and respond."
This sounds good to me :D . BUT Guest For Now? You signed yourself as Guest For now? Now that's got me confused! Because Guest For Now is what GFN stands for......so....was that your post GFN? Or was it another Guest For Now?
Oww. I just made my head hurt by reading these last few pages. Silly me. :? Best away into the heat of day (could be that that's making my head hurt of course - 30 degrees! Not very British.)
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Hi all:
I saw what was going on between Bunny and I as communication, not really as bickering. In my last post here yesterday, the last thing I wrote to Bunny was:
I'll try not to make suggestions to you or ask you questions when it seems like you're feeling vunerable because you have made it clear how that makes you feel and I don't want to make things worse for you. I would rather you just know that I care and will do anything I can to help you feel better.
Truly, I was feeling a bit defensive, just prior to that, but I was trying to ignor that and let Bunny know that I had not only heard her request, understood it, respected it and would try to remember it, but also to clearly state that even though we had had this discussion......the bottom line is I care about Bunny and her needs.
I had also written:
Maybe it's my issue? Maybe you're right? Maybe I ask too many questions and make too many suggestions? Maybe I don't have to do anything but I would be wise to consider what you're saying?
And Bunny questioned my sincerity.
That hurt my feelings so I shut my pc down and went away to think, and cry a little. Self-reflection is painful sometimes and I kept asking myself why I might not seem sincere?
Ofcourse, I do like to kid around a lot :D and so maybe it might be hard to tell sometimes, if I am serious or not. Then there's the problem of the written word, minus all other indicators such as tone, body language etc. So it's easy, maybe sometimes, for others to feel confused when reading and even hard to tell if someone really is being sincere, or not.
(It's pretty hard to tell in the real world too sometimes, even with all of that stuff! But in this case, it might have been clearer had Bunny and I been in the same room and able to see eachother's total communication).
Thankyou to the guests who tried to defend/support me/my style/whatnot here (and I really liked your post Guest for Now who isn't me but I wish I had your finess), and thankyou for all the other nice comments of appreciation that I'm sure were intended to encourage me. I do really feel the caring in your postings and I'm so glad that some things I have said have helped you! That is really what matters to me anyhow....especially that I haven't made things worse for you.
But I was serious, when I asked those questions (of myself, really, thinking out loud I guess), the one's above about maybe I ......, and I was sincere and I did go away and really think about it. What I think is that I like to encourage people, maybe because I have always had to encourage myself, since that was basically absent from my home life, for a very long time. I don't like to see people hurting and feeling alone and suffering. I'm a very hopeful person and I know that without hope, life feels empty to me, so I want to give people hope when I sense they are feeling hopeless.
But I think what Bunny was trying to tell me was that when she is in pain, she just wants to express her pain, and know that she is not alone, and that she doesn't want my encouragement, or my hope, right then. I don't think she was criticizing me, I think she was expressing her need (which conflicts with my desire to instill hope and encourage her) and once I decided to forget feeling defensive, I was able to think it all through logically enough.
The point is.....I did finally get it, being dense in the highest sense :D , and I think I do understand that she's saying she wants me to...as Stormy put it one time......sit shiva??......which maybe I'm not very good at. So I will try harder to pay attention to that, which I did try to indicate I was willing to do and that I care enough to try.
We are all different. I accept that. I try to look for the good I see in you, to encourage you, to let you know that I believe in you, even when you don't believe in yourself. If you don't want that, I will do my best not to point it out, but I will see it, regardless, because that is my choice and my attitude toward most people.
And I do understand that we all have our difficulties in communicating because of our experiences, or what we are feeling at that moment, or any number of other factors....and sometimes we just react, rather than be as sensitive, as we would like others to be with us, me included. So yes, I'm just as insensitive as the next person, sometimes :oops: .
October, the message I get is that you don't want my encouragement or hope, sometimes, and that's ok. I'm glad you stated your need and I will do my best to respect it. I am sincere, I am honestly doing my best to hear what you're asking and I do think I understand. If I'm not getting it right, it's not for a lack of trying.
Best wishes to you (((((((((((all)))))))))).
GFN
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I am locking this thread because it has gone off topic, and I think everyone has had their say.
Richard