Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Resolution on June 12, 2005, 04:55:35 AM
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I arise early these days....not because I can't sleep, I just like to enjoy sitting in the garden and feeling at peace, looking out over the surrounding fields and distant mountans.
Yesterday morning was so lovely. It wasn't cold, nor was it cloudy. A gorgeous blue sky with just a hint of a breeze...kind of balmy really. The leafs in the cherry tree were ever so gently swaying....little flutters more than anything. Birds a plenty, so many singing. Coasting along, I'm no longer in a hurry. There was a time, and not so long ago, when I'd never have given a seconds thought for what I was now soaking up. So many problems.....no time to relax, no time to reflect.
People are a pain in the ass....or so I'm told :roll: We get along...and sometimes we love a little.....or maybe to much. We hurt another...and then again, we often don't know it. We're used...abused...mentally broken.....and physically beaten....by life....and ourselves! Often fighting or defending....for what, I sometimes wondered! Anger, anger, anger,... emotion, rage and yes, fear! Fear of loss or lack of control and what may happen to us or the person of our focus. Strange really, the more we love the more some of us.....fear!
I'm no longer that angry person. Nor am I angry at the person who encouraged me to be so. I'm not angry with anyone come to think of it. I stopped blaming another for my feelings and turned my eyes upon myself. I realised that I was the problem and not the focus of my affections. I gazed upon my mind and forgot about: why, when and how, anothers would perform. I stopped thinking for the world and introduced me to me. I made myself....me....the center of my world....and I slowly started to like me!
Sciencetologist say that we've walked this earth a plenty before and that all of our pains, we carry with us today. I don't subscribe...but then who is to say! I did however, clear myself. I examined me, I still do a little to this day. I stopped finger waving 360 degrees around me, I stopped blaming other for my own short comings. I woke up. I realised it was up to me alone, to fix myself. Others could help, but in the end it was up to me and time, to mend what was wrong....me!
More often we're hostages to our own feelings and we allow others to excercise power over them....hell we damn well invite them too! Having rolled out the carpet and made them feel at home, we then complain when they don't do what we want. And when they have the gaul to wander off without us....boy does it cut deep and the dog inside us becomes unleashed! Snarling at everyone, but in the end, only biting none but ourselves!
I was a broken man....no that's incorrect! I was a man who didn't know he was broken....until it slapped him in the face! I was strutting around with a limp...a limp that nobody, including me, could see! How can one strut around....when you're actually carrying a limping? Opposite statements that are contradictory. A little like my life before I realised....I'd been patching over the obvious and using others to do so! I stopped!
Now I'm whole....complete! I stopped looking at others to provide me with splints. I resolved my broken limb so to speak and I'm splint free to enjoy life. In doing so, I'm no longer shouting at another as to why they won't do this or that for me. I'm not an invalid....a cripple of my own mind! I don't cripple others with my problem....my mind!
Giving 100 percent of our time to ourselves is a therapy I definately recommend. And given time, the anger in our lives, our anger, will start to subside. Never for one moment allow yourself to focus upon another when starting down the road. Concentrat solely upon yourself...and become whole....complete. Then you will really be strutting forwards....without the limp!
It's cloudy today and the winds up.....I enjoy it....I love it.....but then I can! And so can you............... :wink:
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That is awesome! You are living proof of healing and this gives hope to those who choose to stick by loved ones who are afflicted. Congratulations, you have made it.
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Resolution,
Giving 100 percent of our time to ourselves is a therapy I definately recommend. And given time, the anger in our lives, our anger, will start to subside. Never for one moment allow yourself to focus upon another when starting down the road. Concentrat solely upon yourself...and become whole....complete. Then you will really be strutting forwards....without the limp!
I think this probably is the best way to truly heal the injuries, or at least the quickest way to do so. However, how does one do that when they have children, elderly parents, or whatever, who are dependent upon them. Do I tell my children to just hang out for a few years and not bother me with their problems, concerns or issues while mommy gets her sh** together and then I will be back? Since this is what their father has chosen to do (however, his sh** will never come together), who will they turn to?
I guess for me, I must multi-task just like I always have. I also think that without the relationship with my children, I would have very little incentive to heal and let go of the anger. Lately, I haven't really even been that angry, but I am really, really tired of thinking about the losses, being lonely and being afraid of the future. I do look forward to the day when, as was said on another thread, I have my serenity back. It sounds like you have found a way to do that and you are a very lucky man.
Brigid
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Now I'm whole....complete! I stopped looking at others to provide me with splints. I resolved my broken limb so to speak and I'm splint free to enjoy life. In doing so, I'm no longer shouting at another as to why they won't do this or that for me. I'm not an invalid....a cripple of my own mind! I don't cripple others with my problem....my mind!
In my opinion, anyone who says this has a lot to learn about what wholeness actually is. For one thing, it is not about using words like 'splints' and 'cripple' in relation to emotional problems.
The Shadenfreude in your post belies the message you are trying to present. In my view happiness does not come from delighting in other people's inferiority; it comes from sharing in their humanity.
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I stopped thinking for the world and introduced me to me. I made myself....me....the center of my world....and I slowly started to like me!
Did you start liking yourself because there was no one else left in your world, so you had to turn inward or else face complete isolation?
Never for one moment allow yourself to focus upon another when starting down the road. Concentrate solely upon yourself...and become whole....complete. Then you will really be strutting forwards....without the limp!
I wonder at what cost your foreward momentum has been bought. I'm glad for you, but your post also frightens me. In order to be "complete" or "healed," must we really abandon a focus on others? Must we really "never for one moment...focus upon another"?
This is all a way of saying what October has said more eloquently. But I wanted to register how much this mindset disturbs me.
I would like to be free of the chains of guilt, shame, and hopelessness. I believe those chains were not self-forged; rather, they were put around me when I was very young, and I have dragged them with every step I have taken in my life. However, I don't believe the answer is to remove myself from other people. Can't the answer be to cut the chains without cutting myself off from sharing relationships with others--and to choose those others more wisely?
As I say, I wish you well, but your words leave me confused and frightened. All I can say for sure is, this is not what I want my life to become.
best,
daylily
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Hopefully, Reslution will come back and clarify some of the concerns mentioned. I may understand where he is coming from but I definately can't speak for him.
I had a pretty good moral compass from my youth and I slipped into a dark hole. I lost my mother and father within three years of each other while I was in my early twenties. For some reason I pushed the people who cared about me away and just tried to make me feel good without caring about the expense to others. I ended up losing everyone I cared about and I developed a bad reputation. I was completely alone and I had no one to blame but myself. Fortunately I didn't have children or others depending on me at the time. I felt bad about myself and decided I had to get back to the person I was before I went to the dark side.
I embarked on a journey of self-improvement and just spent my time alone reading self-help, psychology, eastern religion, and Christianity. I saw common threads of living a very moral life and treating others well, bringing peace to people.
I continued to just focus on my own inner healing, physical exercise, and my profession for about a year. I became very comfortable with myself and felt whole. I became confident with who I was and it did not depend on what any outsider said. I had no guilt or shame because I did nothing to hurt anyone else and did nothing to further myself at the expense of another.
I also did not feel I needed anyone to fill and void. I found happiness within myself and did not look to anyone to fill any need. This inner peace and confidence must have shown through because people just started entering my life and wanted to spend time with me. They were quality people that I would help in any way I could. I did have boundries and did not allow myself to be taken advantage of. I expected nothing in return from these people. When I became whole I had so much more to offer others and my self-worth did not depend on anybody's opinion. I knew where my heart was at and that determined my self-worth.
I could assist others and have healthy relationships because I felt complete within myself. I believe this may be the place the originator of this thread may be at. Yes, there may have been a period of selfishness; but, that may have been for healing so he could be worth much more to others. This doesn't mean you become a rescuer for people to take advantage of and suck the life out of you. But, it can be rewarding to assist others while taking care of yourself.
Unfortunately, many people never get the opportunity to spend a year alone for self-discovery. This may be why people take 15minutes a day for meditation. I hope this makes sense in explaining where resolution may have been coming from.
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In continuance of my story: One of the wonderful people who entered my life became my wife. Eventually I came to find out she is BPD. I went from a very healthy state to becoming sick myself during a period of ten years.
I can empathize with all of you who are dealing with these issues. It is extremely difficult to remain healthy when you are around this type of mental illness. I had the experience of being very healthy at one time so I know what I have to do to get back there. I have been separated for 6 months and I am finding my way back to the state I was in before I became enmeshed. Within a year I hope to be whole again. Until that time, I will be spending most of my time reflecting, reading, exercising, and spending quality time reconnecting with friends that I allowed to be manipulated away from me. I wish you all well on your journeys down the "Road Less Travelled".
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it's one of those things- I can't even say half the time how he was abusive, it was lost in all the drama, but I know that the best decision I ever made was to set tight boundaries around every aspect of relations with him.
He tells people I'm sick, he tells people I'm mean...but he doesn't affect me nearly as much as he once did and every dealing gets more assertive and positive.
There came a point where I said- I don't care if I never see or hear from him again- he tipped the balance, and I've never looked back.
I wouldn't have bipolar disorder if it wasn't for the extreme stress he and my mother put us kids through, I'm convinced.
Maybe I'm lucky, I've heard stories of people who feel their toxic childhoods brought on heart disease or cancer.
And what about all those who go under- commit suicide, take to drugs or alcohol, never recover...
Wouldn't it be nice to think that some of these parents could be accountable some time?
And yes- I'm a parent, I know it's not easy or simplistic. But do I abuse my child in order to find personal satisfaction: NO!
Get ye behind me satanS is appropriate for all those who do.
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I would like to be free of the chains of guilt, shame, and hopelessness. I believe those chains were not self-forged; rather, they were put around me when I was very young, and I have dragged them with every step I have taken in my life. However, I don't believe the answer is to remove myself from other people. Can't the answer be to cut the chains without cutting myself off from sharing relationships with others--and to choose those others more wisely?
As I say, I wish you well, but your words leave me confused and frightened. All I can say for sure is, this is not what I want my life to become.
best,
daylily
I agree, Dayl. As far as I am able to see, the way to loosen our own chains is to forget that they are there, if only for five minutes, and focus on the chains weighing someone else down. If we try to lift their chains, to help them to bear the weight a little easier, the strange thing is that our own become much lighter to bear. They will not disappear completely, imo, until we enter immortality, because I think without them we would run the risk of becoming totally selfish and self absorbed ourselves.
My view is that pain - whether physical, emotional of spiritual, connects us with one another, and therefore with the whole of life. By focussing on oneself, to the exclusion of all others, the danger is that the person may feel safe and secure, but is actually disconnected from life. Or in alternative language, already in a hell of their own creation, with themselves the centre.
A hermit in his or her cave who feels the pain of the world around, and prays for mankind, is imo more in touch with life, than a business person at the head of a vast, lucrative empire, but who cares nothing about anyone. One is already within the Kingdom of Heaven; the other does not even know it exists.
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Forgive me, maybe I could have explained what I was attempting to say better. Not for one moment, did I, or should anyone else for that matter, become 'Hermit' type in their outlook.
For the first time in my life, I found myself in a unfamiliar situation. So much so, the person I became during this period of time, was not only alien to me, but the others close around me. From being an outward and positve person, I became withdrawn and insular. My pattern of thought became entirely focused upon my relationship with another person and its failings and eventual failure. To the detriment of all else, fixing this relationship became my sole way of living. I just had to hang in there!
It didn't matter how much pain or crap I had to put myself thru, as long as I could be with that person. It didn't matter how bad I was being treated or hurt by this person. I'd constantly seek to know why, but always compensate for their bad behavior toward me. To the point that even when the relationship embarked upon its final dive, earth bound, I'd still tolerate the intolerable.
A lover scorned, is not a nice feeling to endure, but one most of us will experience at least once in our lives. For me however, came the grindingly slow realisation that I was a co-dependent personality. I had no idea of this, nor the fact that I was living with someone who had NPD. The rest of it is now history and the anger of realising all this is long past. My saving grace was in breaking thru a barrier I feel many can't....let me explain.
I was trying to 'fix' the problem when in the relationship. The more I tried, the harder it became.The closer I came, the further away I got...weird! The relationship became nothing more than me trying to fix it and her determined not to....and that is when I realised I'd become totally lost in all of it....it was pointless! The only thing that held the relationship together was me constantly having and needing to. This put me into a submissive role and as such, she danced upon my face....because I encouraged her to do so!
She is a person with NPD and she can't help herself! She continued to be herself because I gave her the oxygen she needed to be so. The more I fanned the flame, the more my ass was burnt! It became an invidious circle. And I became totally enmeshed in the circle going nowhere! My pain existed because I insisted upon it doing so! She couldn't be her nasty NPD self, unless she had someone like me to tolerate her! The more I'd tolerate it, the worse she'd become! Crazy I know.....but it's that simple!
I think most of us eventually reach the summit of our pain, the top of our mountain, I did! The hardest thing for me to accept, was actually the easiest. Instead of fixing her....understanding her....... my only need was in accepting that I had a problem. Why was I putting up with all of this.....when was I going to accept that it would never work.......and what was I going to do about me? So the long fight back to retake control of my mind....the mind I had vacated at the behest of another, began.
I accepted it was over and I stopped being 'in' the relationship and wanting to be so.I stopped thinking of her.....and yes it took time. I stopped trying to reason and logically explain what had been going on between us. I identified the 'hooks' and removed them from the game board of our once relationship. Eventually I stopped being angry as to what I'd let her do to me. The more I occupied my time with other things, the less and less I thought of her. It became a sliding scale of time and distance.....until eventually, it reached zero! I stopped blaming her and took ownership of my own life again.
So the acceptance that the top of my mountain had been reached left me with only one direction to travel. The further down I went, the more the barron terraine changed as I started to hit the tree line. As time past and my journey continued, I started to deal with what had gotten me into this situation in the first place! She wasn't the core of my problem, I was! She had her own problem....but it wasn't mine! My problem was very different to hers and most definately mine. I didn't shut myself away from people, I just started to introduce the real me to myself! I wasn't trying to 'go' anywhere.....I just stopped for a time in the meadow as I moved further down the mountain.....I started to reach an inner peace.
Loathe me, like me....hell even love me, I embarked upon a relationship with myself.....and for the first time! I invested in me. I'd seen a side to me that I'd never known existed. Yes it was not so good in part, but I could harness this and put it to much better use. I'd always be a recovering Co-Dep.....but a least I understood my condition and knew what was good and not so good for me. I value things more, I enjoy things more. I breathe, I live......I see and I smell.....and above all, I feel.
Life with a person who suffers from NPD is frenetic. fast, furious....exhausting......it's one long struggle. Outside of one, things slow down. Less quantity, more quality. The anger inside me is gone and as such, I can sit and enjoy the cherry tree leafs fluttering gently in the morning breeze. Stupid I know, but it's that simple! Letting go is perhaps the hardest thing to do, but in holding on, it isn't them that are to blame.....it's you! They have no idea of what they're doing.....you're the one on the receiving end and you definately do know better!
So sooner or later, your summit will draw near. It doesn't matter which path you take....all of them are downward. Trying to stay at the top and build your house.....well it's futile in a gale and will only prolong the inevitable. You have to let go.....and take care of you.....150 percent. Surround yourself with good people, but above all, never go back and in to the fire of the relationship with your NPD spouse! Never!
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Life with a person who suffers from NPD is frenetic. fast, furious....exhausting......it's one long struggle. Outside of one, things slow down. Less quantity, more quality. The anger inside me is gone and as such, I can sit and enjoy the cherry tree leafs fluttering gently in the morning breeze. Stupid I know, but it's that simple! Letting go is perhaps the hardest thing to do, but in holding on, it isn't them that are to blame.....it's you! They have no idea of what they're doing.....you're the one on the receiving end and you definately do know better!
I think what your saying is true. BUT i am not so sure we know "better" We carry around with us our past,and we carry around with us are unresolved pain. It is sad that many of us have come form N families. We do not know how to heal and some of us didnt even know what we were going though or what was wrong with our lives. Some of us 'DO NOT KNOW BETTER" we have never known anything else. It is called "condtioning" We only know or feel that something didnt seem "right" in our familes or in our relatinships. We thought if we tried harder we could "fix" it.
I agree that N"s are sick and that they have no idea what they are doing. I view them as having a serious mental illness and they make us sick as well.
I agree that letting go is very hard. I beleive it is because we have invested so much and it is hard to accept things WILL NOT CHANGE. We beleive we can change N's (with "enough" love) but we never will. (Again I beleive it is because in our famileis we wanted so much to be loved and couldnt do "enough" to get that love)
Everyone has there own demons to face. We all face them differently. I feel that accpetance does bring peace but it also brings pain for alot of what we feel is waisted time and energy. We fight the wind and we cant understand why it gets away from us. Im happy for you,that you have found some calm in what was great pain.
For me helping others that are without a voice (as in children and animals) helps me to heal and to see and be in reality. They are love without condtions. They are the reality we lose when we deal with N's and they are the ones that give to us so we can heal without asking for anything in return.In them we find the love that we missed and in finding that love we can give and heal without the fear that has engulfed our lives.
wildrain...
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Hi Resolution and welcome:
my only need was in accepting that I had a problem. Why was I putting up with all of this.....when was I going to accept that it would never work.......and what was I going to do about me? So the long fight back to retake control of my mind....the mind I had vacated at the behest of another, began.
And the responsibility shifted back to you, right? You took responsibility for your own behaviour and decided to work on changing it.
Good for you, Resolution!! You stopped blaming and started doing something to help yourself!! And I hear how it has paid off!!
That is great! That is fantastic!! And hopefully, you gained insight and some answers to the questions above, so that there will never be a repeat. :D Thankyou for sharing.
GFN
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Resolution. Thank you for sharing your inspirations with us.
I once told a group of fellow educators (years ago) that saving the self, was the only way we could save others. I was challenged quite a bit from one woman (who didn't know me, but as a young "upstart" teacher, I was percieved as a threat, I guess). I explained that it was like putting on our oxygen mask on the planes first.....that we are no help at all to our fellow humans if we are gasping for air ourselves!!
I was never quite forgiven (or understood?) by that one lady but some really lasting friendships grew from that meeting, and that early part of my teaching career.
I don't see selfishness in what you say. I doubt very much you have become a self centered ogre.... (not that anyone said that.). I would be willing to bet you are as good a friend and caring person as you ever were.....but better.
So keep posting, please, your excitement and energy is wonderful.
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I've read a number of threads on here and one familiar theme constantly jumps from my screen reminding me of a time when I was very troubled. I was looking for answers and was very angered by what this person was, or should I say had, being done to me. All of my energies were focused upon her and what she had done to me and why. I'd endlessly go back and forth in my mind to find the logical and rational reasons for it all. But in doing so, I missed the obvious.....and it really was staring me in the face!
She is an Narcissist with NPD, no doubts about it! But as with most people with serious disorders, she couldn't help herself, let alone even see it! She was oblivious to her illness, there was nothing wrong with her....nothing at all! For her, I was the person who needed help....and you know what, she was right! Being exposed to someone with NPD for a long time will almost certainly leave one in a state of mental exhaustion.....and a lot more! My point being simple. She couldn't change, but I damn well could as I didn't have her illness!
I read so many threads from troubled souls who remind me fully of were I once was. Questioning, searching, stressed and in pain....constantly! My nightmare stopped when I switched off the light....her! The switch had always been near my hand, but I'd failed to notice it. It was there, right in front of me.....so much so, it was background. But the moment I switched it off, I could finally fall asleep and get some much needed rest so to speak.
The power is in our hands and not theirs! We can change things, they can't and wouldn't even if they could anyway.
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Greetings Resolution,
I admire your optimism and your ability to leach the poison from your system.
However every person's experience and circumstance is different.
It sounds as though you weren't raised by an N. If you weren't, then you may not realize just how pervasive and pernicious the effects of childhood abuse by an N can be.
Secondly it sounds as though you do not share a child with an N so you may not realize just how difficult it is to turn off 'the switch' as you call it when the switch is able to use a parents love for their child as a continuing weapon in the war Ns love to wage.
In my particuar case I was neither raised by an N nor married to one, so I will eventually have the same option as you to disengage from my N completely.
But I think you may be a little unrealistic at the options available to those most vulnerable to the damaging effects of the Ns in their lives. Those being the children of Ns and those married to and sharing children with them.
If you are in one of those categories and you have somehow just turned the switch off, so to speak, then I can assure you there are a lot of people here who will want to know how you did it.
And don't get me wrong, I'm very glad you've been able to disconnect and heal from whoever this person was. That is a tremendous achievment. But I'm not sure it can be translated to every situation here, or even most of them, unfortunately.
mudpup
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Mudpup
Yes you're right, I didn't have any tin lids with this woman and yes again, it was easier for me to disengage as she was not a family member. As to whether my parent(s) were N's.....I'm not so sure that they weren't....maybe boarderline......he was a total shit and a bully to boot!
Anyway, I get the gist of what you're saying and agree that not 'one size, fits all' as a solution. I do however have a controvershal view with regard to the dynamics of a Nacissistic relationship, be it parent or partner. I believe that the person with NPD only exists in a relationship (over time) because their spouse or partner insists upon it. And I don't think this really varies much whether it's a parent or lover...I really don't!
I've read and listened to many people over the years on the subject of NPD and most of the time, I hear and see the same thing jumping up at me. Namely the victim, the spouse, complaining about the persecutor, the NPD'er, doing what they're doing to the Victim! And always I ask......why do we, they, I, actively participate, engauge, in this activity? In the full knowledge of knowing what absolute shits these people with NPD are, why do we time and again seek to re-engauge with them? Because in some form, we need them!
Without us, the person with NPD can not inject their poison. They can't continue to destroy our lives. So I dissagree with you mudpup on this issue. I believe that having indentified sufficiently that your family or partner has NPD, you must remove yourself from the situation, immediately! To stick around only encourages them to hurt you more. And in deciding to stick around, you are deliberately giving them the green light to do it to you!
I know what I write sounds easy, but is so hard in real life. I know what I've written has been so by many before. But once we identifiy the peak of our summit and have past it.....then what I wrote previously applies and is the only way forward for us all!
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I believe that the person with NPD only exists in a relationship (over time) because their spouse or partner insists upon it. And I don't think this really varies much whether it's a parent or lover...I really don't!
The person with NPD had these problems before meeting the partner, and will have them after the partner is gone. However, if you're saying that within a relationship, the narcissistic-victim dynamic may continue due to the victim tolerating it, you are right.
ask......why do we, they, I, actively participate, engage, in this activity? In the full knowledge of knowing what absolute shits these people with NPD are, why do we time and again seek to re-engauge with them? Because in some form, we need them!
I would amend this to, "because in some form, we need to replay the drama".
bunny
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Hi Resolution,
I'm not sure we disagree on much of anything really.
I have chosen to completely cut off contact with my brother and don't really see any other way, so I endorse your solution.
And what you say about allowing them to inject the poison is true as well.
The problem is our brains and our consciences. They are so easily manipulated and conditioned that for someone who has been trapped in a relationship with an N for a long time it becomes hard to even understand there is any other life than being victimized and trying to either get it to stop or change the victimizer. It seems to be the essence of codependency and denial.
I believe that having indentified sufficiently that your family or partner has NPD, you must remove yourself from the situation, immediately!
And this seems to be the nub of the prob. Until someone knows what NPD is none of their life makes sense. They usually see a pattern of pathologies that are just confusing and inexplicable, often fooling the victim into thinking he is to blame for the pathologies of his persecutor.
The victim, thinking in a somewhat rational, cause and effect way, says to himself 'if I do A then the perpetrator will do B like a normal person would'.
When that doesn't happen and the domineering member of the relationship does C instead, and does it in a rage, blaming the victim for his rage, it is utterly discombobulating. Only until someone understands what is truly going on in an Ns mind can a logical framework be put on it.
Once that occurs then I agree the victim no longer has an excuse not to take steps to remove themselves from their persecutor.
But the time it takes to disengage and the length of time the effects of the damage remain will vary greatly between individuals.
One other point is, a lot of people have parents or partners with less severe manifestions of Nness, so complete disengagement may not be warrented in those cases. They may feel they receive more from the relationship than it costs them.
Sorry your parents, especially your father, were such buttheads. I'm glad you've attained this level of freedom from their influence.
mudpup
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I believe that the person with NPD only exists in a relationship (over time) because their spouse or partner insists upon it.
Yes, when the spouse or partner doesn't know fully about the dynamics of narcissism.
In the full knowledge of knowing what absolute shits these people with NPD are, why do we time and again seek to re-engauge with them?
I don't know if this is true. I think most people here, who have the 'full knowledge' do not engage with our exNs. We've learnt not to.
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I agree that when we become aware of the extent and depth of the NPD's disorder we are then well placed to choose to connect with them in a limited way or not at all.
However,the issue is not as 'black and white' as the Poster suggests . The issue is smeared and clouded by several factors. NPD is not a disorder which either exists or it does not. Like all diseases it can be found in varying degrees and all N's have some symptoms from very mild right thru to very severe. Most people who marry an N do not understand what they are dealing with for these reasons.
The idea that we can just walk away from an N is naive. Even if we could, the damage that was inflicted upon us does not go away along with the estrangement.
I agree that the victim( if an adult) does have the choice to stay and play, or walk away. However what are we to say to children who have N parents?
If this problem had an easy solution we would have found it -
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I think most people here, who have the 'full knowledge' do not engage with our exNs. We've learnt not to.
True, and then some of us have "disengaged" only to be brought back into some engagement again and again because of shared children with an N. I think Mudpup hit on something here a while back....
I can disengage emotionally, and do so with great effort regularly...but:
However what are we to say to children who have N parents?
yes, there's the rub: what do I say to my children, about their N dad who has legal rights to see them?
You are right, Jophil, if it were easy, we would know the answer already....
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I'm working at the moment to design a method of assessing an individuals N score. Of course we all have Narcissistic traits, but I feel that this could be put together and better understood in a form of psycometric test. This would enable individuals to have a more definitive and graphic understanding of the person that may or may not, have NPD.
Consider it based upon 7 topics with each having a 0- 100 bar graph. I'm designing twenty questions per 7 areas and these scores would be cumulatively added to a final score out of 100. I'm using the DSMV4 criteria as the bases of my headings.
Lets say whilst they score very high out of two of the 7 headings....over 90 percent, but relatively normal, say 50 percent, on the rest. Adding everthing together, would give a final score of beneath 90 percent, say....70. This would mean that they're quite Narcissistic, to the power of 2, but not suffering from NPD. Armed with a better break down of what the two headings they scored over 90 percent in means, would again give the victim a better understanding of what life is going to be like with this person.
The end result of this is an attempt to show and individual whether they are dealing with someone who has NPD or just scores quite high on the scale. It will be a system that doesn't entail the participation of the targeted person....it can be completed by the victim so to speak. It will better explain and give answers to a great many people who are searching for answers and thus remove speculation.
Are we dealing with a bastard/bitch, or are we dealing with NPD? There's a big difference and one that needs greater clarification>
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What is the difference between a bastard/bitch and NPD that needs clarification? It seems to me that they are all are destructive.
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Resolution,
I think that knowledge of what conditions someone is dealing with, with another individual certainly has its benefits. When my T told me that my xH was an N it turned on a light for me and started me on a journey to an eventual understanding of the man who had so abruptly left me. However, the knowledge can only go so far in helping me and will never take away the fact that he is the father of my children and for the rest of our lives, we will be connected at some level.
Most of us here already know that we were dealing with n personalities. I think most of us have disconnected from those who we can and have limited contact with those we can't. While I think an assessment tool might be useful for professionals, I'm not sure that it would make a great deal of difference for those of us in the trenches. It still comes down to how we heal ourselves from the affects of the relationship, how we deal with the relationship into the future, and how to avoid any further n love relationships as we move forward.
Brigid
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Hi Resolution,
I'm just bein a smart ass, but what are you going to do, get down on one knee and say........
"Will you marry me? Oh by the way I have this test I'd like you to take so I can tell whether you're only a bastard/bitch or a real case of NPD?"
Seems kind of hard to work it into the conversation.
Maybe you could use it as an icebraker at parties....
"Hi I'm Resolution, would you like to take my 'Are you just a bitch or a total flaming lunatic' quiz?"
Sorry, not trying to offend. The concept just brought up some amusing visuals. Amusing to me anyway. :?
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Jophil,
Just a suggestion, but I have a feeling a long rant to disgorge some of what you're holding in could possibly do you a world of good.
Take care all.
mudpup
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Hi, Resolution. Just trying to figure out what your idea is: Do you think these people would "take" the test if we say: "I would like to find out if you are simply a bastard or if you have a personality disorder. AND I would like you to be honest when you take it."?
Highly unlikeyl. And if we (those who know them) give our ideas on what the scores are....how valid is that?
Brigid: like you, having N explained to me, as what my ex is.....really helped ME. HE will not go to any therapist, as why should he? There is nothing wrong with him....just the rest of the world!
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Hi Resolution, I think this is of limited value, but it's on the net and being used. Have you seen it? I think it's for fun, unless you want to take it seriously :wink:
http://www.4degreez.com/misc/personality_disorder_test.mv
Btw the last time I did this (ages ago) I was everso mildly Schizotypal which didn’t surprise me. What the heck. :D
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Lol, very funny Mudpup :lol:
On a serious note though, so many people want to know: is he...are they...is she...etc. There seems to be a large number of troubled souls guessing at what is or isn't the case in their circumstances. Being able to successfully profile the person at the center of their problem will I hope, give some definitive answers.
The victim answers the profile questions, not the person who's causing the grief. Profiling individuals for jobs is something that happens all over these days. Change the criteria to that associated with NPD will not be that difficult to do and should lead to some positive results.
As to the difference between being a bit of a bitch/bastard.....this doesn't mean that being one means that you have NPD. There is supposed to be about 2/3 percent of the population with NPD. To my experience, there exists and damned site more bitches and bastards than that :) My point is that coping with the aforementioned is far easier than coping with a person with NPD. NPD is super league material whilst being a bastard is somewhat less. At best they're a younger version of full blown NPD waiting in the wings!
Also a number of people are reading into bad behaviour coming from a person and immediately labelling them with NPD. Often this isn't so, and I'm convinced that many people are ending their relationships because others convince them quickly over the net that their partner has NPD when they don't! This is something I haven't seen on this site but have on a number of others. On these, people are very quick to hang rather than listening and learning!
So a profile is something that you the victim would complete without ever asking any questions from the person concerned. You would answer them with the full knowledge of what you've experienced from them and it would be you who'd complile the report by totting up all the answers.
For those of us who've been their and done it so to speak.....it would just be confirmation of what we already know and feel. But for those unsure who are constantly seeking assurance....I think it could be the platform by which they could decide things with confidence.
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To be fair, I think any N profile test should also contain a self-evaluation for co-dependency. :) I have been thinking about the earlier question in this thread about why we stay or continue to choose relationships with people who act this way. There is the obvious that people who have NPD/BPD, etc. are expert manipulators and suppressors/liars. However, in the light of knowledge, enough clues get through the cracks in their defense that it is OBVIOUS to us in hindsight what has been going on for so long. The clues are there, we just aren't aware of them at first.
I think there are two reasons why WE didn't see see these problems with our N's/B's earlier. The first is that we weren't looking for them. It has been discussed on other threads here how society and relationships operate from an assumption of honesty. That is why lying is so effective. If we haven't been taught or had to learn that some people lie regularly and don't seem to suffer any conscience about it, then we don't look for it because we are not aware that it is a common possibility. Once learned, it is a lot harder to suppress awareness of these problems in others, though it can still be done. :) :( Suppressing is more difficult long term than not being aware of it at all in the first place.
The second reason is that we may actually be seeking people who act this way, even if it is unconsciously. This has also been discussed here in other threads. We seem to have a drive to repeat situations from the past to "solve" them or find ways to fix them. If nothing else, this behavior may seem so "normal" that it doesn't raise any red flags to us. If that is how you were treated growing up, or you never learned to value or stand up for yourself, you may tolerate this behavior because you don't expect any better. Hope for better maybe, but not really expect or demand better treatment.
To really escape from the cycle of getting involved with people who treat us badly, it seems like we need both pieces. As others have posted, it is not enough to be able to recognize an N if the unconscious drive to be around them keeps us unaware of it to try to work out those childhood issues. That can actually lead to serial N relationships. It takes both pieces working together to really break this unhealthy cycle. So, it seems to me that the damage done to us by our caretakers when we were young was the failure to teach us to take care of ourselves, both by spotting unhealthy people and by expecting and insisting on good treatment from others. In some cases, people were actually taught that they DIDN'T deserve good treatment from others or that EVERYONE acts this way, so there is no use looking for anything else.
This to me is the core of the damage that was done. It was not the neglect, harsh words, physical abuse, emotional abuse, or sexual abuse. Those things hurt, but were "only" the symptoms. The REAL betrayal came in not teaching us to expect good treatment and to be unaware that not everyone we meet would be able to treat us well. Parenting that did not lead to us learning to insist on good relationships and spotting bad ones was flawed. It doesn't matter as much how far over that line the abuse or neglect was. It could be an inch or 1000 miles over.
The good news is that whether is was an inch or 1000 miles over the line, there are just two things to learn to heal that damage. I am not minimizing the hurt, pain and the hard work of facing all the abuses from the past and moving through them. That certainly may be worse for someone 1000 miles over the line than for the inchers (like me). It also may be harder to see the line if you are 1000 miles away than only an inch. Stepping back over the line into what we TRULY deserve is the same in both cases. It is the journey to that point that is different. I think that is why we can all share our experiences here and have it feel so relevant, even when our background differ so much. It is the same journey, different paths. I'm not sure if this is profound, but if feels that way to me.
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mildly Schizotypal
Correction! mildly Schizoid :shock: Still am :D but only mildly.
Actually on a revisit, that test isn't as daft as it might be. And if you want to spot your potential axe-wielding Sociopath (is that more dangerous than a Narcissist?), this could help.
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Hi longtire and Resolution,
Resolution,
OK, that makes a lot more sense; answering for the N. In fact that actually sounds kind of useful. Keeping the answers perfectly objective might be a little tough after a few decades of abuse, though. :wink:
Long,
I'm not sure if this is profound, but if feels that way to me.
Me too. One of your best posts, you nailed every topic you discussed.
Too bad you had to get your degree from the school of hard kNocks.(sorry couldn't figure out how to work a B into that.)
mud
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Longtire, great. I do appreciate your posts.
If we haven't been taught or had to learn that some people lie regularly and don't seem to suffer any conscience about it, then we don't look for it because we are not aware that it is a common possibility.
Yup. A thousand yups.
Once learned, it is a lot harder to suppress awareness of these problems in others, though it can still be done. Suppressing is more difficult long term than not being aware of it at all in the first place.
Ahh. So that’s why I keep looking for other peoples’ hang-ups, even when they’re not there? Thinking “where’s the catch?”? I don’t like doing it but yes, it’s darn difficult not to. :?
In some cases, people were actually taught that they DIDN'T deserve good treatment from others or that EVERYONE acts this way, so there is no use looking for anything else.
Both! I wish I could think this succinctly longtire. This double-whammy is awful isn’t it. I did think everyone was like that.
The REAL betrayal came in not teaching us to expect good treatment and to be unaware that not everyone we meet would be able to treat us well.
Do some parents pass this on to their children then? Really, truly? I'm not being coy here. If I'd had had kids, I'd have told them the world was a place you had to fight to survive in.
than for the inchers (like me).
tsk? The effect is how a child perceives it, not what actually happens according to an (imaginary) objective observer?
So the answer is to (1) recognise the unhealthy relationships and (2) recognise that we made it happen as much as the other person? And learn to look for and appreciate healthy relationships? :D
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This issue of whether people are NPD or just Bastard/bitches reminds me of that old dilemma about whether he/she is an alcoholic or *just* a heavy drinker. What does it matter? Both of these types cause serious damage to themselves and to all of those around them. The trick is to decide whether their behavior is healthy/ loving/ valuable or decent and whether you should tolerate it or leave, if or when it becomes habitual.
My 2 cents...John.
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ahhh, now here comes the catch! Inverted Narcissim or INPD combined with NPD ain't like anything compared to having one or two drinks too many!
At the core of NPD, anyone 'healthy' who finds themselves in a relationship with such a person would run a mile! Yes of course it isn't that easy if they're a family member, but even then they would distance themselves! It is to those that continually insist upon maintaining/investing of themselves in such relationships that fascinates me!
I had no idea that in principle I was co-dependent as a personality. I'd been in and out of relationships before and never would anyone who knew me, have described me as one. But with this person and this person only, I couldn't stop placing my hand repeated back and into the fire! I was absolutely stumped and very much stuck in a rut over this one. I could say it was love, but long after any normal person would have hit the ejection button, I still continued to slog away at fixing/understanding her! The stupidest thing I've ever done! I can best describe it as running with my penis in hand along a pebble dashed wall.....crazy!!
To helping solve the above problem, it would have been good for me to have known in advance, mine and theirs personality issues. Mine were subconcsious, but very much present.....and well hidden. I won't waste time in going into them, but they were there. Hers were also loud and clear....but I dismissed them. If something akin to what I've been writing about was available then, it would have wanted the questions asked in two ways. Namely: Please answer these set of question with you'r ****NPDer in mind, I.E put yourself in their place and answer the questions to the best of your ability knowing them....and the second set of exactly the same questions would be completed with the question: Please answer these questions with you as the target person. From this you would be able to generate two graphs displaying both personalities side-by-side. And from my experience in HR, it would be very revealing!
I believe that I'm possibly an Inverted Narcissist....but probably only whilst with this person. Outside of this relationship and left to my own devices for a good period of time, I reverted back to fairly normal, joe schmo ways of doing things. I tended to notice, and so did others, big changes in me when away from this person. When with her, everyone noticed large changes in my personality.
So when I read threads from other poor souls search.....no pleading for answers and to have their experiences listened too, I keep seeing me doing exactly the same as them, years ago! In relationship terms....as I say, any normal person would peg it! But as with most alcoholics, they tend to really on people close to them feeding their habit....because they care for them......how crazy is that!! 'I love you and so yes, let me go down to the booze shop, buy you your fix and watch you slowly die as a result!' It's the same with people involved in any form of relationship with a high scoring Narcissist! 'Here let me bend over more so you can get a better shot at my testicles with your right foot.......wouldn't want you to hurt yourself now, would we!' (change testicles for ass if you're a girlie).
So my test would be designed in such a way as to prove to the inverted or happless person, the shear futility in what they are trying to do for the so called person they care about!
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From my understanding of NPD, it is an all pervasive disorder. I don't think that one that suffers from NPD can turn it off. The definition Inverted Narcissists is that they only seek out narcissists, the only time they feel whole is when in a relationship with an N. The disorder doesn't go away when they aren't around an N. Your first post talks about how content you are, how life is great, etc. If you were an inverted narcissist, you wouldn't be content without an N in your life. To say that you are an inverted narcissist but only when around her is a contradiction. Inverted narcissists don't get better, just as those with NPD don't.
I think that anyone that has been in a relationship with an N will have serious questions and pain, but that doesn't make them an N. Any person suffering from the abuse of an N is going to seek out answers. Codependency and Inverted Narcissism are 2 different things.
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Inverted narcissism is another term for covert narcissism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_narcissist
Best of luck to you Resolution - portia
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Longtire,
I found your post to be very profound. I agree it is one of your best. :)
If we haven't been taught or had to learn that some people lie regularly and don't seem to suffer any conscience about it, then we don't look for it because we are not aware that it is a common possibility.
Certainly my problem. I believed all my ex told me and never questioned it. I never lied to him about anything and I assumed he did the same.
We seem to have a drive to repeat situations from the past to "solve" them or find ways to fix them.
This is what my T has told me. I keep searching for a man I can fix, who is replacing the father I could not fix.
So, it seems to me that the damage done to us by our caretakers when we were young was the failure to teach us to take care of ourselves, both by spotting unhealthy people and by expecting and insisting on good treatment from others. In some cases, people were actually taught that they DIDN'T deserve good treatment from others or that EVERYONE acts this way, so there is no use looking for anything else.
Also true. Portia, I don't think it was a conscious teaching. Children learn from their parents by observing their behavior more than what they are told imo. My father treated my mother poorly as well as me and my brother, so you learn to expect that from everyone. Because my mother never demanded anything better, I was also taught not to demand or expect to be treated well. Both of my failed marriages were to men who threw me scraps of love and attention and I felt grateful for what I got.
Resolution said:
Also a number of people are reading into bad behaviour coming from a person and immediately labelling them with NPD. Often this isn't so, and I'm convinced that many people are ending their relationships because others convince them quickly over the net that their partner has NPD when they don't!
This seems somewhat hard to believe, but I guess you have observed it. If someone is in a relationship with a person they truly love, I can't imagine they would be looking for reasons to get out of it. If their partner is that difficult to live with and apparently unwilling to get counseling, perhaps ending the marriage is the only option whether the person is n or not.
The stupidest thing I've ever done! I can best describe it as running with my penis in hand along a pebble dashed wall.....crazy!!
I would have no personal knowledge of this, but it sounds very painful. :shock:
Brigid
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it would have been good for me to have known in advance, mine and theirs personality issues.
Well, wouldn't we all! We can assess ourselves to varying degrees, but unfortunately in order to assess someone else, we have to get to know them somewhat. How are you going to do your test on their behalf if you don't know them enough?
So when I read threads from other poor souls search.....no pleading for answers and to have their experiences listened too,
This forum is primarily for those who have been voiceless and have already begun the healing process. If I hadn't come across the word "narcissist" I wouldn't have found this site. "Pleading for answers" implies that they don't have clue as to what is going on in their lives. They know. They know damn well that they've been dealing with a Narcissist at what ever degree they are.
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Portia, I don't think it was a conscious teaching. Children learn from their parents by observing their behavior more than what they are told imo. My father treated my mother poorly as well as me and my brother, so you learn to expect that from everyone. Because my mother never demanded anything better, I was also taught not to demand or expect to be treated well.
Thanks Brigid, I understand. It was a great post from longtire wasn't it? Maybe I should print it out 8)
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longtire - A masterpiece! You've come a long way. I'm going to add something because I'm so inspired.
Sometimes when we encounter people who ARE nice, giving, warm, functional, we will PROVOKE them to act in the ways that we're accustomed to, so we can stay in that insulated codependent universe. It's an addiction with withdrawal symptoms when we start to give it up.
bunny
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Thank you, Longtire, your post was eloquent and, yes, profound.
I think we do all arrive at things along a different path, that much is clear. I have found what you said to be true for me, that I expected people to behave honestly, and had no clue that they could be otherwise, especially if they were in "love" with me. In my home, growing up, people behaved lovingly....their actions matched their words, for the most part.
What a shock when I found it otherwise....so I kept trying to "fix" those people who didn't get this as a child. From what I had learned growing up....love healed all wounds. Sure it does...... :roll:
On the other hand, I had also learned things about myself that were not true, yet I cannot pin it on any one or any one circumstance. It was my interpretation of my childhood experience, religious training, based on who I am as a soul what level of awareness I had, that led me to this place on my path.
I do not believe I was a "clean slate" at birth. I should add, that when I say this, I am not talking about the Christian concept of "original sin" unless it would be to say that it simply means we are human and fallible as such.
I believe I have a soul that is on a path. Whether it ends here or moves on is up for grabs (won't find that out until I leave the world, I suppose), but obviously, I believe there is more to it than just birth, death and the stuff in between.
Yet the other part of it, I realize now after lots of work, is that although I cannot find a direct cause to pinpoint my attraction to "solving" this issue in my life (thus seeking out the problematic person to work it out with), the part I played in this is clear. Call it co-dependency (sounds about right), but I sought this. I needed to learn something. I picked a very nasty "opponent" who would indeed provide me with all the external fuel for me to fight this inner battle. If I had not had children with him, I would not be learning this with him....I would be doing it elsewhere. The lessons are there, waiting to be learned. Learn it now, or learn it later. It will still need to be learned, I will still need to resolve this.
That is why I can bless his (stinky, nasty) path as well as my own. I am actually blessed to be learning this. HE most likely won't learn, can't learn, even though he has the same opportunity we all do. Oh well. I still get to learn.....so in that, I understand the phrase "thank you enemies".
It doesn't really matter what part of our path we are on; awareness helps us see that we do make choices... that we can find out about this life and those choices. Awareness, and mindfulness of what we do and why helps us change and grow.
Knowing this does not mean my abuser is off the hook, or that my inviting this learning with him as a soul somehow diminishes his responsibilty for his bad behavoir.
It does, instead, empower ME. When I realize that while I can't control others or circumstances, I can realize why they are presented to me, and what I can learn from them to become a better person. I always have that choice. It doesn't always mean I can't get mad, or even use my anger to grow and even right a "wrong". But it does mean I have a choice to do this, and a choice to move through it, use it, or stay in it (anger for instance) for a while.
And I think you are right, that is why people on this board even bother being here. There is some level of awareness of it all.
thanks for allowing me to think out loud. I know it's pretty much been said before, and much more beautifully, so this is not news to anyone.....
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Resolution, sorry if I hijacked your thread. Your posts really touched something in me and I just felt like I had to get it out. Thanks, everyone, for your support and feedback! :)
longtire - A masterpiece! You've come a long way.
I credit the people here for their support, encouragement, discussion and opinions for helping me make this progress in a remarkably short period of time.
Sometimes when we encounter people who ARE nice, giving, warm, functional, we will PROVOKE them to act in the ways that we're accustomed to, so we can stay in that insulated codependent universe. It's an addiction with withdrawal symptoms when we start to give it up.
bunny, thanks for this warning of the road ahead. I don't feel like I've started to reach out to people much in "real life" but will be watching myself for this when I do. In my case, I already have a fear or expectation that I will somehow unconsciously "ruin" relationships if I act like myself. I need to be aware of this and make sure that I don't turn it into a self-fulfilling prophecy.
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Portia
My comment about being 'Inverted', was made because I think I started to mimic my N's behaviour. Her actions and ways of doing things kind of became normal and I'd replay these to others later on. Having been exposed for such time, I think this is normal. One picks up on things and uses the same tactics. It's like picking up the sword mans sword and swishing it about. Only they know really how to use it, only they can stick it in to someone.....especially with a smile upon their faces! You. you're just playing with it.
Longtire
I've read your post, again and again and it's very good. That we are pre- programmed in the manner you write, does bring an accepting nod as I sit before my screen. Have I learned enough in order to now avoid seeking relationships with....shall we say N people....very much so. But yes, you've very much struck a chord, so much so, please allow me to expand further.
My childhood was very religious, Irish Catholic, with strong indoctrination and intolarance of all else. Whilst pregnant with me, my mother had a brain tumor but refused to have it removed less it harmed me. So without medication, she progressed to term, then had her operation to remove the tumor. As time moved on, she contracted Cancer which eventually lead to her death when I was 13. Basically she'd been ill with one type of Cancer or another during my 13 years.
I am naturally an empathic person and as I've grown older, I've become more so. I am in no doubt as to the effects my mothers dying had upon this. Every Irish Catholic mother of that time, always wanted at least one priest in the family and I was the caring child, I was being groomed accordingly. There exists even still today, a certain degree of above normal innocience and nieveity about how I view things. This combined with my mothers death, how my father blamed me for this, plus my religious indoctrination, pre-dispossed me to what happened later with my N experience.
No I couldn't stop my mother from dying and yes I've attempted to resolve this failing later in life. I would find myself drawn to difficult situations, mainly in business with companies in difficult straights. I found it both absorbing and satisfying if I, we, pulled them round. Although I hadn't realised what I was doing deep down inside, my exposure to my N released the lot.
I don't know whether individuals with NPD have an extra sense, an ability to smell people like me out, amongst the crowd. But I had a rather large, yet unseen to me; bullseye stamped upon my forhead! I was a marked man, but never knew it....until along came N. Now I don't blame her, because at the base of it all, she did me a favour! I say this because whilst it was a terrible experience for me, it lead to were I am today and me being free from what, unbeknown to me, I'd been carrying.
On the way in, she'd be offering me a constant stream of left or rights....forks in the road. It's only years later that I realised this. Yes she was the damsel in distress and yes I was riding upon my off white donkey! Yes I swooped her up and sped off at a snail's pace and yes I started to fix, in all innocience and nieveity, this poor done to person. It's a cliche I know, but I walked....no, ran full pelt into it!
I write the following in but a few sentences.....but it has much greater meaning as I shall try to explain. There came a point, a matter of weeks into the relationship, when something unbelievable happened. She had a young boy by another man and I was explaining one night that I didn't really want to run into a ready made family to quickly. To which she burst into tears and shortly after announced that she was going to adopt him out rather than loose me! I initially laughed it off.....until I realised she was being deadly serious! So much so that two days later, her Grand Parents turned up furious, to sort it out with her. She'd actually gone and told her parents of what she was going to do!
This was not the first, nor would it be the last, of exceptional statements she would make, totally unsolicited. She didn't come from a poor background and she'd been supported by her middle class family to the hilt. I had in no way talked with her about it save to mention what I had in passing. I suppose I was gently applying some breaks, just a dab. But in reacting the way she did, she really hit me like a Stinger, heat seeking, missile!
For you see, I was left again, with two choices. Remembering that I do believe in people and of my innocience and nieveity; ;I should have ran like hell, but didn't. My dilema was further complicated when several days later she broke down in further tears and announced that she'd already adopted a boy out at 16 when she fell pregnant. Not only was I even more stunned, my empathic nature moved to reasure and comfort her. She was nothing more than one of lifes many victims in my eyes.
There was no way I would even countenance any thought of her adopting any child out over me. So I moved quickly to scotch any such idea and also reasure her parents that it wasn't going to happen. In doing so, she played exactly to my weakness, she was naturally very manipulative. She'd expressed my importance to her and realed me in like the fish on the hook. In one move, not only was I much closer to her, I was now locked in, fool that I was!
The relationship developed around emotional love from me and a kind of logical love from her. The two are incompatible as anyway, one doesn't exist. But this statement aptly describes what followed. Essentially I was told exactly what she knew I'd believe and in doing so, she would manipulate out of me what she was really after. And as you've written Longtire, lie after lie and so on! So I believed what I wanted too.....needed too.....was programed too....and she recieved what she was really after.
The reasons why I've written the above is not out of anguish. It is as an attempt to perhaps reinforce what Longtire is correctly saying....but in more lay terms. The fact that I was very open to this form of exploitation, came as a shock to me later on. I shall not bore you with the twists and turns of what enfolded, I'm sure you've read them all before. But what really did surprise me......was the fact that at no time had I ever taken into consideration,what I'd experienced as a child! Never once had I realised the cross, my cross, that I mentally carried. It was bloody obvious that one day I'd become undone.....and I'm pleased it was sooner, rather than later.
I'm much more capable of controlling my emotions and far more savy as to how they can be manipulated. In the end andas I wrote earlier, she did me a favour.....but at a what cost!
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Resolution: I get it.
I also grew up Irish Catholic. There were good parts to that aspect of my childhood, but I find I am undoing a lot of the religious contaminations of spiritual truth (IMO) that I was indoctrinated with.
Your story about the girl....the adoption....unreal. And no "good Catholic boy" that I knew would ever be able to make any other choice than what you did.
Feeling responsible for everyone's feelings seems to go to the quick of some more sentient children, and the Catholic doctrine can cause some real inner turmoil with this. Your mother's health is an unfair burden for a child to take on, but completely understandable even if your father didn't add to it!
Your story is compelling, and your current path is as well.. I wish you the best.
(And yes, these "people" do smell blood in the water.)
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Resolution, I'm so sorry that you lost your mom at such a young and critical age. That must have been devistating for you. Her whole life being one illness after another must have been very hard on you too. It sounds like there was hardly a feeling of "normal" at home.
Re the death of your mother you wrote:
....how my father blamed me for this...
What????????????? Your father blamed you for your mother's cancerous death?
So you not only lost your mother, but while in your despair, your father was emotionally ripping you appart too???
I'm so sorry for this.....that you had to endure it. :( :( :( :(
How awful for you! How backward and unfair of him to do to you!
You sound like you've come a long, long way from there. Good for you!
That couldn't have been easy.
GFN
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Thank you all very much for your kind words and thoughts.
I'm very much at peace with myself and carry no grudges for another. It was a difficult situation, they were difficult times. He wasn't the smartest apple in the barrel, yet he did the best he could. I don't blame him, it was then and just the way it was. The average working man didn't have time to spend thinking about their feelings, it simply wasn't the done thing then. Much worse happened to many others, I was lucky by comparison. I'm 45 by the way.
I feel very enriched by my experiences and actually pleased at the turn of events. I guess the best analagy I can draw is that I was an airliner at 35,000ft with a very dodgy seal on the baggage door. It wasn't locked and at anytime, it was going to pop open! My father never had the opportunity, the chance, to confront what I have, but he never had the time nor inclination!
I broke through a barrier......and made it to the other side. Sooo many people struggle or can't and it is to guys like Richard, the creator of this site, that I take my hat off to. So many of us have fought to survive....but it is to people like him, who have lead us through. They didn't wave a magic wand.... they just pointed out the exit signs along the way.
You've done a good job Richard, even more than perhaps even you realise. :wink: