Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: miaxo on June 15, 2005, 11:03:49 AM
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Hi All,
Over two years ago my younger brother "came out of the closet". I was shocked but then again I really wasn't. Does that make sense?
I always suspected that my brother was gay since he was a young teen. He's not flamboyant or feminine in any way. After years of having many of my friends and coworkers swoon over my brother and my brother always finding an excuse as to why he didn't want to date any of these very attractive women....I knew something was up. There was more to it then him being fussy. I found myself lying to people b/c others were constantly inquiring about my brother and wanting to be fixed up with him b/c I knew he wouldn't have an interest. He was often referred to as Mr. GQ by my friends. So eventually I told them he had a girlfriend who the family didn't approve of and that's why he never brought her around. I know that was wrong to lie but it did get people off my back about him.
Fast forward to my brother's thirties. He became severely depressed and took off for the holidays two years ago. Totally unlike him to be away from family during holidays. We were all worried. He didn't tell us where he was going. Turns out he went to FL. I eventually was able to reach hiim via his cell phone. He sounded very guarded and detached. He then asked me, "Do you know why I'm down here?" I asked him to repeat himself. He did. Long pause. I responded, "Because you are gay." He began crying. He thought that the family was going to turn on him for this. He especially thought that I would and so would my husband since we are "Conservative Christians" AKA religious zealots. He was also fearful that I would no longer allow my children to have contact him with him. All hogwash of course.
I finally convinced him to get the hell back home ASAP. He was a complete mess. He confided that he was a 32 yo virgin and felt like a freak. He has always known that he was gay but never acted on it and till this day hasn't.
I was able to get him to go to his primary doc and the doc put him on an antidepressant. It seemed to help him but of course he was still feeling very bad about himself.
Well, I have come to find out that my brother abruptly stopped taking the meds. For the past few months he has been in another world. Confused and disorganized thinking. This is so unlike him. At times I will be speaking to him and he is looking through me and doesn't respond. I usually say, "What's wrong?....I'm talking to you" After which I have to repeat what was said.
I'm worried. He doesn't believe in therapy.
He has told me that he has met some gay friends but for the most part has difficulty relating to them. He doesn't feel comfortable around gay men who are flamboyant and feminine acting. He has confided that he has yet to act on his homosexuality. He has never been with a woman or a man.
My brother is the greatest guy. Always willing to help every one else. Very generous, loyal, and honest. He feels guilty that he "lived a lie" for so many years. Right now I can see how tortured he is.
I feel like he needs to get help....professional help. How can I convince him??
I am posting this b/c he phoned me yesterday early AM. He was begging me to come in and work for him. He neglected to put ANYONE on the schedule for his store (he owns and operates two stores in the city). I asked him how he managed to overlook the schedule since it's busy season right now. His response, "I don't know". This is alarming b/c he always prided himself in his organization and professionalism.
As the big sister, I dropped everything I was doing and rushed over there with my son. I covered the store for 4 hours until he was able to call in his employees. During my four hours there, he was really out of it. Basically in a daze. He was even having difficulty doing basic mathmatical computations. To say the least I am concerned.
Thanks for reading.
Any feedback would be appreciated.
Mia
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Mia:
It is so nice to hear such love coming through your post. Your empathy for your brother and your concern for him is really special and beautiful. He is blessed to have a sister like you. ((((((Mia))))))
I don't know what to say to help. A person has to accept help....it can't be forced (unless the person is a danger to themselves or others and even then...it's a tricky process sometimes).
I think by empathizing and letting your brother know how much you care, you are doing something that must help, a little. Will he talk about his feelings with you? My bet is he feels "bad", or like a "freak".
He's not the only gay person on earth!!! (so he's not that unique/freaky).
There are lot's of bad heterosexuals and worse, in the world!! He's not bad!
He does good things etc (stuff I don't know but you will....has good attributes.....gifts......talents......characteristics etc).
I will keep you and him in my prayers Mia.
Wish there was more I could say of use. :(
GFN
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Mia,
What a heartrending situation. My first thought is, "He is having a nervous breakdown." I think he needs help desperately and I'm even thinking hospitalization. Do you think he's suicidal? Do you have a therapist? Please talk to your T and ask for advice on this situation. It's kind of complex because you can't force your brother to accept his sexuality, to get help, to do anything. And he may be wanting to punish himself and refuse to take appropriate help. However he will take help in a "concrete" crisis where you have to work in the store. That was symbolic, he is in the emergency situation. I imagine what would help him is a non-threatening, straight-looking gay male therapist. Just let him know you're there for him and you support him. It may sink in at some point, but not right now. Just keep letting him know even if he doesn't hear it. Sometimes when people expect to be rejected, and it doesn't happen, they're can't handle it, because they unconsciously feel they should be punished. This is so complicated that I think professionals are needed, if you can get him to one. You can tell him that there are people who would help him, you will not rest until you find the right person and he doesn't have to see anyone who feels threatening to him.
Bottom line, please talk to your own therapist if you have one.
You're a fantastic sister.
bunny
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GFN
He's not the only gay person on earth!!! (so he's not that unique/freaky).
There are lot's of bad heterosexuals and worse, in the world!! He's not bad!
He does good things etc (stuff I don't know but you will....has good attributes.....gifts......talents......characteristics etc).
I tell him stuff like this but it doesn't seem to sink in with him.
However he will take help in a "concrete" crisis where you have to work in the store. That was symbolic, he is in the emergency situation.
I never would have thought of this, Bunny. Thanks. After I read your post I remembered how my brother greeted me when I arrived at the store. He had such a sad look on his face and very quietly said, "Thank you, (my endearing nickname from childhood). He hasn't called me that in ages. It was touching and upsetting at the same time.
I don't feel that he is suicidal at this point. Two years ago he was. So I think I could sense if he was contemplating such things.
You're a fantastic sister.
Thanks Bunny. I don't always feel like that. I still feel badly b/c about a week b/f he took off for FL he was over my house. He was acting very moody and was snippy towards my kids. I wouldn't have minded but he was snapping at them and they weren't even doing anything remotely annoying. I suddenly found myself blurting out, "You are so miserable, why don't you get yourself a girlfriend?". As the words escaped my mouth I knew I was saying the most insensitve thing I could say to him. Even though he *wasn't out* at that time, a part of me already knew. Talk about putting your foot in your mouth. :roll: He stood up, excused himself and left.
I know he feels so alone. He tells me that he will be alone for the rest of his life. I try to comfort him and let him know that he has me, my hubby, and the kids. My children adore him and he adores them. However, he has even become disinterested in them lately.
Bunny, I don't have a therapist. I only speak with the children's therapist once every three weeks.
I imagine what would help him is a non-threatening, straight-looking gay male therapist.
Sounds good. I wouldn't know how to begin to look for such a therapist.
Maybe it's listed as such in the yellow pages? :wink:
I suppose it wouldn't hurt to ask the kid's therapist if she knew of anyone who could help my brother. Maybe if I went with him.
Between me and my Mom we are keeping close tabs on him. He lives in the same town so I get to see him often in person as well as online.
On a lighter note: Since my brother is Mr. GQ he is constantly updating his wardrobe with the latest fashions and he gets rid of what he considers to be old stuff but in actuality is still considered new stuff by 99% of the population. I'm talking high end stuff. He's the same shirt size as my husband. Yeah, you guessed it. Husband gets all the hand me downs. Last week, hubby came strutting down the stairs in one of my brother's shirts which looked very flattering on hubby. Hubby says jokingly, "See there are perks to having a gay BIL." To appreciate this you must know that hubby was raised a Baptist and knows the Bible inside and out. Quotes it daily. Who would have thought that he would be so open to my gay brother....let alone wear a gay person's hand me downs. After I told my brother about this.....he laughed....a genuine laugh....I would like to hear more of his laughter. BTW, hubby and brother get alone great. They go out to sporting events, golfing, etc. Hubby has been trying to coax him to do something together lately with no success.
We'll just keep trying.
Thanks.
Mia
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I still feel badly b/c about a week b/f he took off for FL he was over my house. He was acting very moody and was snippy towards my kids. I wouldn't have minded but he was snapping at them and they weren't even doing anything remotely annoying. I suddenly found myself blurting out, "You are so miserable, why don't you get yourself a girlfriend?". As the words escaped my mouth I knew I was saying the most insensitve thing I could say to him
Mia, he provoked this unconsciously. Some part of him feels he deserves to be punished. He is likely homophobic himself because he can't distinguish between an appropriate, mature gay man and a flaming drag queen. He has them all in the same category. Bottom line, he desperately needs a non-threatening therapist who is gay-friendly -- a role model for sanity and positive growth.
YES call your children's therapist asap!! Even if she knows no one, she can ask her colleagues! Try it.
bunny
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Hey, Mia. I wish I had some concrete answers for you....or at least something to share. You sound like the best sister he could wish for.
Could your brother be on some other drugs now that he has stopped his meds?
He must really feel alone. I know some gay men who feel that way...I mean about the super feminine men not being thier style....the "gay" night life/social life not being thier style. There are lots of other gay men who feel that way, but it's pretty hard to connect, I'm sure, as they are not out and about looking for love, as it were.
I will send you and your brother good thoughts....when he is ready....help will be there (most likely, you).
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Hi All,
Over two years ago my younger brother "came out of the closet". I was shocked but then again I really wasn't. Does that make sense?
Mia
Hiya Mia. I agree with the other comments; you are a great sister, and your hubby sounds wonderful too. I am not sure what I can add to what has been said, but perhaps if your brother has internet connection he could find friends online just to talk to, not chat rooms but maybe message boards or penfriends. He could start with people half a world away, and gradually work closer to home. :)
I know my gay friend does that, rather than going on the scene, which he finds too shallow. He ignores the kind of people who are looking for something he is not looking for (which you get anywhere), but he also finds good friends, in an environment which he can control and thereby remains within his own comfort zone. And sometimes he meets people after getting to know them this way, which is really good too.
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Mia,
Yes, my dear, you are a wonderful sister.
Do you live in a community with a college or university? Quite often they have gay, bi-sexual, lesbian, etc. groups on campus that might be able to help you find a therapist or perhaps a support group that would be helpful. They might also be able to direct you to a support group for family members that can help you learn to communicate more effectively with him. It doesn't sound like you have any acceptance issues, but they can also help you with that. It sounds like he needs help with accepting who he is and learning to be OK with that.
If you don't want to or can't go the college route, I know that most major metropolitan areas have Gay & lesbian groups that should be able to provide all kinds of resources. We just had "Pridefest" here in town which is devoted entirely to the Gay community. You can try your local Yellow Pages or see if there is some kind of community resource council either through the library, Chamber of Commerce, whatever. It really just depends on what part of the country you are in and how big the city is as to how much help is available.
I wish you well.
Brigid
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Mia, remember who said, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."
Sounds to me as though you and your blessed wonder of a good dear husband have heard His words, loud and clear! Thou art thy brother's keeper...
One of my ex's sisters is a gay Lutheran deaconess. Whichever Synod includes metropolitan New York City is quite loving... you might try a Lutheran church that belongs to that synod (it is not the Missouri Synod, but I don't remember which one it is) and see if they can recommend someone. I'd offer to put you in touch with my ex's sis, but it's been so long since we had any contact I am not sure how to reach her. PM me if you'd like to chat further.
Father Mychal Judge, the dear man who was killed giving a firefighter last rites on 9/11, was also gay, though a priest and therefore not acting upon it. I don't recall his order, but you could find it via the Net, and perhaps get some further counseling referrals via a local Chapter house...
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Oh mercy......Im going to catch alot of flack on this one. I feel there is alot more to your brothers crisis then you are aware of. I also experienced this with a very close family member. My father came out of the closet after 26 years of marriage to my my my um, mom.
From what my dad has told me, the day he came out of the closet was the first day of his life that he felt free. He had nothing to hide anymore and he has said many times that he felt a huge weight lifted off of his shoulders. He no longer had to live a lie. So I have to wonder why it seems that your brother began to show signs of depression when he should have felt relief because he no longer had to live a lie.
Also, I have to wonder how much he is not telling you and if this is the case, why is it he feels he can not be forthcoming to his family? At times we say one thing but our actions say another. Maybe perhaps someone has let a facial expression show or some little comment was overheard by your brother that made him feel uncomfortable discussing these delicate issues with the family. I say this because I really had to watch myself around my dad. There were many times I wanted to cringe around him but I decided that it was not my place to judge him. We all have done things in our lives that we were judged for by others. My philosophy is if it doesnt directly affect me, why should I put my two cents in.
If your brother is truly torn so much about being gay, he would not hang around gay people. Trust me, gay people have what I like to call gaydars. They can detect another gay person from miles away. If your brother was struggling with being gay, I highly doubt he would gravitate to others who possess the root of his evil. (Evil as in mental torment, struggles, etc.)
I just see alot of unspoken issues with his behavior that your describe. If he is hesitant on discussing these issues with you, maybe he has been in an onging relationship that has gone sour or something like that. Or perhaps his medication wasnt right for his depression and he needs to consult his phys. for that but whatever the case, he definately sounds like he is in crisis for sure.
Be gentle on me guys, just sharing what I have witnessed and heard from my dad.
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No flack here, Jaded. You make a lot of sense, and having your dad to refer to is a pretty solid bit of experience.
You do got guts, gal. I admire that!
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Hi Mia, this may be an off-the-wall suggestion.
How about you send him an email with a link to this thread, or just to this board?
Or the link written on a post-it?
If he doesn’t find therapy attractive, maybe he’ll appreciate the anonymity here.
Hi Jaded They can detect another gay person from miles away.
Some gay people like to think they can! But not all gay people believe this. Some gay people are more thoughtful than those who think they have special powers of perception....
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What surprises me most about this subject is the suffering and apparent isolation Mia's brother is enduring just trying to be true to himself. His awareness for himself is not directly hurting another. The only concern we should have is about his comfort and happiness for what he finds to be his need in discovering his true self.
Gay may not be a choice, but "coming out" (mostly to oneself, and then others) is a choice, and a heart-wrenching one... that I'm sure takes much courage and many years. If he needs therapy, and I'm sure the right therapist could help, it would/should be to help him accept himself. (I'm still trying to accept myself and I'm not gay).
It's obvious to me this is an "internal" problem and no one else should be hurt by his way of life. Family/friends may be disappointed, but is that for the sadness he must face by accepting something he has been afraid of, shamed by, and hiding...from himself and others? We all must find the courage to discover the biology we are given and choose the character within that biology that makes us someone we can be proud of...and move forward with our life!... With or without those who choose to judge us.
The recommendation of him using this site as a road leading to therapy makes me think this: How would he feel reading all this about "him", AND, this is a therapy site with N considerations. Nothing was mentioned about him possibly having a personality problem so....as far as I can see, he is lucky to be gay and not a N. And for both N and gay, or anyone struggling with life issues, it's most important to be insightful and willing to look at, admit, then face what we have not seen in ourselves before. The true strength and humanity of character comes with resolving to find our own peace in being the best we can be, to satisfy OURSELF, with who we are meant to be. Accept that we are something that was given to us and make it our own. This will define who we make of ourself.
This is only my opinion, as I struggle with a very different version of my own biology and family/character issues. I, too, am struggling to live my best life...with therapy.
I respect someone who faces who they are and defines himself with a dignified character. If anyone else has a negative opinion or is hurt by this, they too have their own struggles to face and maybe should consider finding an appropriate therapist to help face their own demons...if they are strong enough to travel through weakness.
Mia, I wish your brother much comfort and clarity, with peace and love, on his journey. He needs you to stick by him...and anyone else who might be gentle and/or love him. Courage and best to all ,
HollowCost
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Hi Hollow cost,
The recommendation of him using this site as a road leading to therapy makes me think this: How would he feel reading all this about "him",
I thought about this the moment after I posted. Maybe he doesn’t see his sexuality as being his major problem, if he thinks he has any major problem? Maybe he’d be amused? Maybe he’d be overwhelmed that his sister cares so much? I don't know how he might feel.
If he doesn’t think he has a problem, he won’t look anywhere I guess. I think the board is great and I’d like to see the message spread, so I’m over-enthusiastic about recommending it. For emotional survival!
Mia, I guess you/we could ask for this whole thread to be deleted if you thought it was a good idea??????
AND, this is a therapy site with N considerations. Nothing was mentioned about him possibly having a personality problem so....as far as I can see, he is lucky to be gay and not a N.
Maybe he has Voicelessness problems? Maybe he has a physical problem and needs to see a physician? I wasn’t suggesting he had a personality problem….actually I’m a bit confused as to what I’m saying now. I see it might be a shock to see people you don’t know talking about you; but otherwise, I don’t get it? Why shouldn’t someone come here to talk, listen, read?
Maybe I missed something here. Did I? Or did I just not word myself very well?
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Thanks for all the thoughtful replies (Mum, October, Jaded, Stormchild, Portia, Brigid, Hollow, GFN, Bunny). They are much appreciated.
From what my brother tells me these days he was always experiencing an internal upheavel since early childhood. He found at an early age that he always felt out of place and lonely...no matter who or how many friends he had.
No matter how hard he tried or pretended he knew he didn't fit in. However, his friends always felt he fit it b/c he did such a good job of disguising all of his feelings and emotions.
My husband and I are dumbfounded in many ways b/c he has become increasingly depressed since "coming out" two years ago. He can't find peace. He's still confused and doesn't feel like he fits in anywhere.
October said:
perhaps if your brother has internet connection he could find friends online just to talk to,
He does do this and even after speaking to "more masculine" gay men he still felt like he couldn't relate to them.
Brigid said:
Do you live in a community with a college or university? Quite often they have gay, bi-sexual, lesbian, etc. groups on campus that might be able to help you find a therapist or perhaps a support group that would be helpful.
I mentioned to him last year that maybe he could find some resources to help him at the University he graduated. He was against the idea.
One of my ex's sisters is a gay Lutheran deaconess. Whichever Synod includes metropolitan New York City is quite loving... you might try a Lutheran church that belongs to that synod (it is not the Missouri Synod, but I don't remember which one it is) and see if they can recommend someone. I'd offer to put you in touch with my ex's sis, but it's been so long since we had any contact I am not sure how to reach her. PM me if you'd like to chat further.
Thanks Storm for your support. I may be taking you up on the offer to pm you.
Jaded,
Thank you for sharing about your Dad. My brother is more of a homebody and really doesn't hang out with other gay men. He's always around family and mutual friends that he shares with my brother.
Portia,
You are fine. No need to explain yourself, hon.
If others feel this thread to be offensive then I would have it deleted. But I think it's OK.
Hollow,
If he needs therapy, and I'm sure the right therapist could help, it would/should be to help him accept himself. (I'm still trying to accept myself and I'm not gay).
I think it would be helpful for my brother if he was able to find an objective third party to talk to about his true feelings. Right now he seems like a tortured and tormented soul.
Unfortunately, it doesn't seem that family support is enough. He knows we accept him with open arms. He's struggling. I feel that his coming out has made him feel worse about himself. And it wasn't b/c of the reactions of the family. My brother told me last year how surprised he was that everyone was still accepting of him. He was truly expecting that he was going to be banished.
Point of interest: The only person who didn't know was my Dad. My brother "came out" as my Dad was dying in the hospital. They were very close and my Father was a very traditional and conservative man.
As I mentioned to Mud in a PM, I wonder about my brother's timing. Dad had been in the hospital for nearly one year and my brother came out a month before he passed.
mia
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Hi Portia,
I'm sorry to read you questioning yourself after my post. I understand your enthusiasm about this site...I, too, am a great fan of Dr. G. His essays, and the way he monitors our health on this site, is of great comfort. The site and its posts are often brilliant with compassion and information. The voicelessness theme is a simple, yet significant, description to clarify much trauma we have experienced. It finally gave me a name I could understand and relate to. Again, how brilliant. This is something Mia's brother probably could relate to.
I thought about this the moment after I posted. Maybe he doesn’t see his sexuality as being his major problem, if he thinks he has any major problem? Maybe he’d be amused? Maybe he’d be overwhelmed that his sister cares so much? I don't know how he might feel.
My thoughts regarding how he might feel were very simple and different than what you question. I would not like others chatting about me without my knowledge or involvement. It could be considered an intrusion to him and his very troubling private issue. I would want to be involved in any conversation about me, if possible. That's all.
Also, I never thought you were saying he had a personality problem...I was only claiming that a N can be most troubling and difficult to engage with...as well as affecting most anyone who is in contact with a N and/or their victims. This change is really hard work...but first it has to be recognized to even have a chance of beginning change...and that might define a "re-formed" N.
I'm so sorry he is so depressed and unhappy--especially with a supportive family. It does sound like a bedside confession to his dad may have added some trauma.
In my past, the "coming out" gay men I knew always seemed to find it easier for a friend to take them somewhere to ease them into the comfort of their new lifestyle changes. This could help. Sure, bars, and the wrong gay type, can be disheartening. But this is no different in the straight world. Maybe he needs a less critical eye for now and just have some fun and get comfortable. A night out with someone "not his type" does not have to define him. I have a dear gay friend in the Boston area who is attracted to staight-looking gay men. He is picky and, by the way, handsome. He too finds it hard to meet people but...it's nice to see him at peace with his life choices. He is happy to be alone and happy to be with someone when he chooses.
As a straight and voiceless person, I have also come to respect my alone time, instead of it being shameful. Again, a (gay/straight) human similar issue. Maybe we, especially me, need not take ourselves too serious all the time.
His insecurities, as a gay man, may mirror many experiences in the straight and/or voiceless world. All that's different is that we stop looking when we think we found what's causing our discomfort or unhappiness. Not to complicate the issue, but rather to simplify it...maybe there's something more or different to consider, too. Maybe the trouble is not gay life---maybe it's just life!
Good luck to all of us. Live simply and beautifully. I'm trying.
P.S. Maybe my handsome friend could help?
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Hi Mia,
I wasn't trying to offend anyone with my post. I hope you didn't feel attacked or offended by my post.
Something else I failed to mention about my dad was that he was raised in a strict Catholic family. Three of his uncles were Catholic priest. My dad received all of his education in Catholic schools. He told me once that the shame that he felt as a child going to confessions and what increased tremendously as he became aware of his sexuality.
Someone posted that perhaps he felt voiceless..........I will say this, feeling voiceless is one of the most helpless feelings I have ever known. I never experienced that before my N and I hope to never experience it again. Perhaps if you offered your brother a non judgemental, empathetic shoulder to lean on, he would welcome the offer and open up about what is going on. I understand how hard it is to hear about this subject. I wanted to cover my ears at times when my dad would talk about his feelings or his bf crisis but I also gained alot of insight into my childhood when he came out of the closet.
They say that you cant be happy with anyone if you cant be happy with yourself and I truly do believe that my dad was a miserable person, heck he isnt much better now but it allowed me to see that it was not my actions or my siblings actions that made him miserable all of the time. It wa his inner struggles that tore him up.
Any yes, I know that gay people cant detect every gay person on the face of the earth. I made that comment lightly, you know, jokingly. At times, small comments on this forum are taken way to heavily. If we could detect others sexuality or narcissism, we wouldnt be here would we? Ask any gay person you know, most of them know the gaydar comment :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:
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It does sound like a bedside confession to his dad may have added some trauma.
I apologize if I wasn't clear. He told all the family but NOT my Dad.
Thanks for your input, Hollow. You have great insight.
Mia
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Hi Jaded,
I was not offended in the least by your post. Everything you said was said with good intentions.
The gaydar quip was amusing. Definitely something I can joke about with my brother.
I'm pretty laid back and I like to think open minded so please don't ever second guess your feelings or opinions as you post them. I value your thoughts and advice.
God bless.
Mia
ps I'm no longer Catholic but raised Catholic....even attended 12 years of Catholic School :shock: :shock: I also had one uncle who was a priest and an aunt who was a nun.
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Mia, Jaded, Hollow, all - sorry for maybe being 'tetchy', quick to have something rattled here. I don't believe sexuality is the root of problems, it's all the other stuff. Anyway, sorry Mia, I made a daft suggestion, please ignore. And the Gaydar joke Jaded - I've had people tell me seriously they believe in it, yes really, scary huh? Sorry.
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Anyway, sorry Mia, I made a daft suggestion,
Main Entry: daft
Pronunciation: 'daft also 'däft
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English dafte gentle, stupid; akin to Old English gedæfte mild, gentle, Middle English defte deft, Old Church Slavonic podobati to be fitting
Date: 14th century
1 a : SILLY, FOOLISH b : MAD, INSANE
2 : Scottish : frivolously gay
Portia:
You are quite the character. :wink:
On a more serious note, I think my brother would feel that his grappling with his sexuality is the root of all his issues. Remember, this is just me thinking out loud.
best wishes
Mia
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Hiya Mia, I had no idea that 'daft' meant all those things, especially not the last :o :D ! Showing my Northern English dialect. I say 'daft' all the time. We use 'daffy' too - "I'm just being daffy". Do you use daft? If not, will you now? (Although 'daffy' is too close to daffodil which reminds me of, o-oh, a certain N variety..) Thanks for that, I enjoyed it :D
Remember, this is just me thinking out loud.
.....I did remember this, too late, last night and metaph'y kicked myself...like this.. :? :roll: . I was just rolling up my sleeves and getting ready to go around your brother's house for a chat wasn't I? Getting stuck in without reading the question/brief properly. Thanks for saying it.
Back to the question. How can you help? What do you think now? Will you perhaps tell him you're concerned about him overlooking the shop staffing (I find the simple maths thing worrying, the lack of concentration, being distracted maybe...) - is he okay, does he need to talk....etc?
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Hi Portia,
The last time I used the word daffy was when I was talking about Daffy Duck. :wink:
I will talk to my brother about his forgetfulness and confusion over basic tasks. At one point in the store I heard him mutter to himself, "What's wrong with me?" When I went over to help, he asked me to please walk away. So I did. I didn't want to embarrass him.
Mia
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Hi Mia,
a clarification: I didn't think this thread was offensive. I was suggesting deleting it if you wanted to give him info about the board - but that's 'daft', and would create a dishonest and contrived situation. More harm than good I would imagine.
About your last post. I guess you could try and see him when he's alone ..... and talk about only that incident - i.e. I heard you say "What's wrong with me?" and I wanted to talk to you, but you asked me to please walk away. I want you to know that I'm here for you, I care about you and you're not alone. I walked away because you wanted me to, but I'm still here.
I don't know what else you can do, except be available?
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that was me...
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Mia,
I'm starting to think this has little to do with his being gay. He is like any other person who drops a few bombs on family/friends about being messed up, tormented, past all help -- of course eliciting many offers of caregiving and help. Then he rejects all of these offers, and keeps throwing out the loaded comments, obvious behaviors that worry and concern others. This puts EVERYONE IN AN IMPOSSIBLE BIND. THIS IS NOT About being gay. It's something else. He is being passive aggressive. I actually think you should back off on offering to help him. Tell him straight out you are here for him but you won't keep pushing it since he rejects your help. Give him some space to reconsider his taunting behavior. I would be pretty aggravated with him by this point.
bunny
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Hi it's bunny again. Yes it is PARTLY about being gay (he feels in an impossible bind, so he puts everyone else into one). But he's using torment about his homosexuality to do all this passive-aggressive stuff. You can only do so much. He's an adult who can choose to get help, and he'd rather be a martyr. No one can force him to help. But sometimes a person can be subtly pushed by not catering to his acting out. And he is acting out big-time.
bunny
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I wonder if your brother might be feeling a bit like someone I knew once who was gay but didn't want to be gay??
Can you imagine going to a therapist and saying:
"I'm Irish but I don't want to be Irish. I want to be a Scott".
Wouldn't you feel like a complete idiot?
It just seems so scarey to think about doing that, doesn't it?
Just a thought.
GFN
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Well.....I suppose to feel utterly that way.....it would have to be something like:
"My relatives came from Ireland but I want them to be Scotts".
:D
GFN
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bunny,
I don't know if I see him as being passive-aggressive.
I do know that I feel a need to rescue him. I guess I always have since we were kids. My earliest memory of doing this was when he was about 8 and one of my friends made a very negative comment to my brother. I asked my friend to apologize to him and friend refused. I can remember jumping off my bike and kicking this girl's arse b/c she hurt my little brother's feelings. He didn't ask for me to defend him....I just did it. Now that I think about it, he never complained about it. By no means was I a bully...a little bit of a tomboy...who later developed into little Miss Priss.
Recently I had a discussion with my Mom regarding my brother. She was telling me that my older brother felt that she (mom) favored younger brother all these years. I don't know why they were having this conversation. Anyway, my Mom went on to tell me that it wasn't that she favored younger brother but out of the three kids she always "worried" about him the most. There's just something about him that makes you want to look out for him. We all did it. Even older brother.
Perhaps if he is passive aggressive...we have been the ones encouraging it??
All I know right now is that I'm confused. Life can be so messy. I have come to the conclusion that we are all f'd up in one way or another. Some more severe than others. Some willing to tolerate more than others.
Sorry, I'm rambling now.
Mia
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Hi Mia,
to me it sounds like there is a lot more to come out of your brother. Is it possible he was abused or something?
Guest2
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Hi Mia,
There's just something about him that makes you want to look out for him. We all did it. Even older brother.
It's obvious that you and your family care a great deal about your brother and really want to help him.
But maybe this is part of the problem? Maybe he just wants to be able to live his life, make his own chioces/mistakes without having the family keeping an eye on what he's doing?
Giving him support is a whole lot different to helping him in what you or the family think would be best for him. He's a grown man now.
I hope I haven't said anything out of line,
Kaz
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Giving him support is a whole lot different to helping him in what you or the family think would be best for him. He's a grown man now.
I hope I haven't said anything out of line,
Hey Kaz
You could be right. He was and at times is still babied.....especially by Mom.
mia
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Hi Mia, life is messy ... and interesting because it's messy? I think so (on good days). We're all different, that's for sure. And what might be totally f'd up for one person, might be a perfectly sensible life for another (I'm thinking religious hermits vs typical 'ordinary' western people). If your brother was intending in his heart to follow a strict religious path for example, his lifestyle (no sexual relationship, no close freinds) may not be that strange. Just trying to look at things a different way here.
He does seem from what you said to be unsure about himself. If you want to help, all you can do is offer help, but he may not want it. On the other hand, to echo bunny somewhat, he's responsible for his life, you're not responsible for him. You have no obligation, but you care out of choice.
It's possible you could be annoyed with him. Doesn't he realise that you're worried? Doesn't he care that you might be concerned about him? "I'm concerned about you and it's worrying me. Do I need to worry? Please put me out of my confusion and tell me if you're okay or not."
Did he thank you a lot for covering the store? I hope so. If i was him I'd have been very embarrassed to have had to have asked you to do that. I'd want to show my appreciation by giving you a gift, or an outing etc. Relationships are reciprocal :D Hope your weekend gets better, look after yourself Mia, Portia
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Hi Portia
My brother was very grateful and thanked me several times. He offered me a ridiculously large sum of money. I told him I'd rather he spend some time with the kids. He said he would enjoy that. I plan on holding him to it. Hmmm....today is a beautiful day for him to take them to the park. :wink:
Mia
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:D Go for it Mia :D enjoy your day too!
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Thanks Portia.
You have a good one too. :D
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Mia,
It's totally natural to want to defend your younger brother when you were a kid. I think it's very sweet of you. Actually you guys seem like close, loving siblings which isn't a problem at all.
What I see is your brother showing everyone that he is suffering torments of hell, and rejecting all offers of real help. I probably shouldn't have used the term passive aggressive as that is vague and who knows what I'm talking about. But I will say that he's putting himself and others into an impossible bind. Maybe he's been in this bind for many years, with his parents, and he's using "coming out of the closet" to finally concretely show everyone what this bind feels like.
All I can tell you is that he can't be rescued by anyone in his family but he can rescue himself if he wants to. I can totally understand your desire to rescue him. I want to myself!
bunny
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Hey, Mia. I'm not sure why I think the following applies in a way, but maybe it makes sense.
A long time ago, my school has some serious, I mean serious, morale problems, due in no small part to the awful administrator we had at the time.
A few of us who had some training in Systems thinking tried to make some headway with Peter Senge's philosophy's about learning organizations....(he wrote "the Fifth Discipline" and has some wonderful things to say about organizations). Anyway, we took everyone through a process of identifying where we were as an organization...it was pretty hard stuff as emotions were running high.
As we went through this.....what we found out (and is pretty well outlined with this type of thinking) is that its simply not enough to identify where you are as an organization (and this is where somehow, I think it applies to relationships) or what the problems may be..........there must be a common goal that is actively WORKED ON...not just talked about.
So when you said you asked your brother to spend time with the kids, it hit me in the same way...there must be an action taken to move forward.
In the case of our school, it was our common focus of being a postive environment for children.....with the WORK or movement forward after that identification of a goal....of getting on with really DOING IT.
Ok, long way around: you support your brother as you love him dearly. You have made that clear to him. Now the actual demonstration of that comes with: you working for him when he needs you, him taking your kids to the park, etc.. It's the love in ACTION that moves us beyond just discussing it.
Anyway, sorry for the ramble, but it seems you are a good sister and whatever your brother's issues are....demonstrating that love in action is going to move him and you closer to a goal (showing your love and support...him finding healing in some way?) than just being concerned.
He is a lucky guy, I think, to have a sister like you.