Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: zeene on June 22, 2005, 10:06:11 PM
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I grew up with an N mother who continually let it be known that she HATED
her own mother. This was my grandmother, who was the kindest, warmest, most generous and loving person I have ever met and continually supported my mother in every way possible and taking nothing back in return.
I do know that my mother had a good upbringing and was smothered in love. The only thing I can think of for the reason for her hatred was that she was perhaps JEALOUS of the relationship between her father and mother and wanted her father to love her and no one else.
Anyone else have a similar experience with a B***** N??
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Hi Zeene,
true to form on this board, you have touched on a situation that existed in my family. My mother resented my grandma no end. She did have some reasons, my grandma got divorced and my mom's dad got custody. So she felt abandoned. But it was more than that. She just did not like her, did not respect the way she lived her day to day life, and unless my eyes and ears deceive me, she was glad when she died!
I wonder how I will feel.....
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UdontMEANallNhateMAorPA?
DO U?
BUT IF N'S DO HATE MA OR PA...
WHY....?
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i identify with this question. i am 58, and until fairly recently, never understood what was wrong with my "evil" sister (my other sister is fine). my two sisters are 13 and 15 years older than i, with the eldest being the "evil" one. i knew that she tried to turn my mother against my sister, my father, and me. she was truly the meanest person i ever knew. now that i've learned what "projection" is.........well, she was the queen of projection. mother was a rather weak and dependent individual, which proved a perfect target. i have an older son (37) who is very much like my evil sister. i often wondered why he began targeting me. his father and i provided a loving and stable home (a 40 year marriage) for him. by the will of God (or nature, if you will), i wasn't able to have more children until the first son was almost 12. he resented the sister and brother that came along, even though we remained totally devoted to him as well. i was always a stay at home mom. we never left the children with babysitters, were always involved in their school, extra curricular activities, encouraged them to explore their talents, etc. we loved our children.......all of them. he, however, resented me for having more children, and began trying to undermine my authority with the little ones. he would tell them i was stupid because i wouldn't let them watch MTV when they were little ones, or X-rated movies, etc. he would switch the tv when i would leave the room. everything is too long to go into now, but i just want to say that i must take issue with theories that N's have to have had certain traumas, such as molestation, abuse, etc., during their childhoods to become N's. I think that some people are just wired a certain way, and they would end up being N's no matter what. I only speak from experience. My oldest son has no empathy, is cruel, feels entitled, is lazy, cannot express emotions (other than anger), makes fun of people who do show emotion, is envious if someone has something he does not have, brags,............and the list goes on. he was not raised like that, nor did he witness that behavior growing up. i just don't understand.
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my understanding is that narcissism develops when there is a conflict in being raised ( or in some circumstances being nurtured another way even later in life ) and a person is simultaneously placed on a pedestal and assigned special attributes whilst being kept at an emotional distance.
The narcissism is a protection mechanism which hides from the child the fact that they feel unloveable or unworthy personally whilst getting mixed messages about how wonderful they are for certain attributes.
This happened to my nh when his mother developed cancer and she was almost worshipping of his intelligence and projecting how she expected him to pursue his career and life etc, but never showed him any affection; my guess is that she maybe thought he needed to be tough ( and successful ) after she had passed, but she did great damage and it's taken years for him to start relating anything like normally.
It's almost always a parental relationship which creates a narcissist, and even though it might not seem it sometimes, they are still human and will probably resent the parent who gave them so much angst and mixed messages.
PS> all the n-s I've known so far ( 4, possibly 5 ) it was the faulty relationship with the MOTHER which let them down...
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PS> all the n-s I've known so far ( 4, possibly 5 ) it was the faulty relationship with the MOTHER which let them down...
Isn't that what has been said about every single mental illness and afflication since time began? Are mothers still to fault for everything? Granted there are some doozies out there. But there are so many other things influencing kids, such as, oh I dunno, dads?
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thank you Plucky 2.........i appreciate what you said. i fully realize there are horrific situations some children live through, and there are some situations that, on the surface, seem benign. i can only judge from my own experiences. i have never been emotionally distant from any of my children! all three of my childen have different personalities, but the oldest is the only one who seems to have no conscience (or, at the very least, doesn't listen to it). i find it too easy for some to just "slam" mothers......and not just because i am a mother. i presently work for psychologists, and we have discussed the subject of certain personality traits (narcissism being one), and although we agree that there are many "learned" behaviors, we also recognize that there are some people who are "just wired differently".
to "Guest", did you know your nh during his childhood? i was just wondering if you were an eye witness to his being raised. i am not trying to deny you your thoughts; however, i do not agree with your generalities.
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PS> all the n-s I've known so far ( 4, possibly 5 ) it was the faulty relationship with the MOTHER which let them down...
I'm playing a bit of devil's advocate here:
Well, lets look at that....it could be spun any way you want.
Could it be that relationships with fathers are inconsequential? And that
since the mother/child relationship is the more "important" one, the mother is identified as the issue precluding the disorder?
Could it be the father is the more likely N, and being masterful at placing blame on others and manipulating the child, has transferred the blame to the mother...passing on that blaming to an N child?
Is that a blanket acknowledgement of the true power of mothering? If we get the blame, then we also get to take the credit for things gone right? Doesn't that follow?
And where are all these N's in therapy to be identified and the source uncovered anyway? Most N's my therapist has heard from (nightmares for clients says she) are mostly men calling her to set up appointments for their wives ("fix her!"). The N's in my life would never consider therapy as "nothing is wrong with them, it's everyone else"!!!!
My two cents. carry on.......
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generally speaking
the mothers influence of ma is stronger
on baby and child...
and then dad's role increases...
so in a way it might be dad's fault
in picking a wife who
is not good at mothering...
and n mom's tho often charm a man
as if they love him
but more for his potential to provide
their narcissitic needs
which usually breaks a man
or turns him into well u know what;)
IFN HE WERE NOT ALREADY ONE TO BEGIN WITH
in terms of npa personality theory
where theorized be 3 main genetic traits
narcissism
aggressivenss
peerfectionism
i think women are more likely to be narcissist
men more likely aggressive
and hmm perfectionist
homosexuals or bisexuals :)?
if u do a search with npa
in this forum i think u should find some stuff on it
one also might see parallel theory
by denny johnson? who wrote WHAT THE EYE REVEALS
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i identify with this question. i am 58, and until fairly recently, never understood what was wrong with my "evil" sister (my other sister is fine). my two sisters are 13 and 15 years older than i, with the eldest being the "evil" one. i knew that she tried to turn my mother against my sister, my father, and me. she was truly the meanest person i ever knew. now that i've learned what "projection" is.........well, she was the queen of projection. mother was a rather weak and dependent individual, which proved a perfect target. i have an older son (37) who is very much like my evil sister. i often wondered why he began targeting me. his father and i provided a loving and stable home (a 40 year marriage) for him. by the will of God (or nature, if you will), i wasn't able to have more children until the first son was almost 12. he resented the sister and brother that came along, even though we remained totally devoted to him as well. i was always a stay at home mom. we never left the children with babysitters, were always involved in their school, extra curricular activities, encouraged them to explore their talents, etc. we loved our children.......all of them. he, however, resented me for having more children, and began trying to undermine my authority with the little ones. he would tell them i was stupid because i wouldn't let them watch MTV when they were little ones, or X-rated movies, etc. he would switch the tv when i would leave the room. everything is too long to go into now, but i just want to say that i must take issue with theories that N's have to have had certain traumas, such as molestation, abuse, etc., during their childhoods to become N's. I think that some people are just wired a certain way, and they would end up being N's no matter what. I only speak from experience. My oldest son has no empathy, is cruel, feels entitled, is lazy, cannot express emotions (other than anger), makes fun of people who do show emotion, is envious if someone has something he does not have, brags,............and the list goes on. he was not raised like that, nor did he witness that behavior growing up. i just don't understand.
Not guilty, he sounds like a sociopath to me. No empathy, no emotion except rage, a horrific sense of entitlement, deliberately vicious and enjoys it.
Have you talked to a lawyer about making sure your younger children are protected, in terms of inheriting from you, which I hope may be far far in the future - but is still relevant? Your firstborn will try to create havoc on that distant day, and he'll try to steal them blind.
If you can do nothing else about him, you can put a spike in that, for their sakes. Quietly, without saying anything to anyone. A good lawyer will understand the problem completely and can solve it very thoroughly.
Sorry you have this to deal with. But don't blame yourself. It sounds as though your older sister was cut from the same bolt of cloth as this kid - and we just can't predict whether or how our own kids will be affected.
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as for seeing these n's raised- yes I did grow up with n-h and saw with my own eyes some of the things which I later came to see as abusive. In particular was that his mother totally valued him for being the cleverest kid ( in the family/ at school/ in the neighbourhood ) and talked all the time to him about his future career plans and how he MUST carry them out. I remember not long before we married he was thinking of changing degree then thought better of it because he'd promised mother on her deathbed...I remember saying 'it's up to you' but he couldn't see beyond this manipulation from his past.
She however did nothing to prepare him emotionally for her death, or even practically- he was so shocked although it was obvious to everyone else. And he thought she'd died without ever having chance to show him she loved him.....................................
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Why is the mother relationship ideal to produce an n? Because of the way we are so often raised by mothers; because the mother-child relationship still has this elevated 'sanctified' social position so that people who are let-down by mothers feel it more harshly; or because a mother-child relationship is the least questionned relationship in a society, and so long as a child shows no visible scars or marks of abuse no one questions that a mother might be doing harm???
Just a few suggestions.
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Another close friend of mine who was actually formally diagnosed npd, I'll never forget being introduced to his mother- I was shocked at the look of pure malice she gave me whilst shaking my hand, it was like one of those cartoon features where the person changes momentarily into a monster then back again. She spent the rest of the time fawning over him, perhaps she thought I had designs on her man...
No I don't agree that all mental illness is blamed or blameable on mothers; I do think that unless each child has a decent half-sane significant person around for their childhood they are potentially heading for severe mental health or behavioural problems though.
As we all know in this day and age, a significant person may be either sex, and preferably an adult, but I like many others raised my own sister, and she shows no signs of mental ill health unlike my brother & myself who were raised by two damaged ( and damaging) adults- our parents. She just happened to escape their attention being the middle child and they were too busy partying to ever interact much with her.
As for generalising, we can each only speak of our own experiences and learn from each others. Many psychologists and psychiatrists don't even like to use npd as a diagnosis in our family experience, preferring to concentrate on negative or destructive traits...it's true, the n-label isn't very helpful for the n, portrays them as an emotion and attention hungry monster; not much to build upon as a therapeutic relationship is it?!
( as for how n's end up in therapy- sometimes it's when they become severely depressed having been thwarted; sometimes it's an ultimatum from an employer or spouse because their behaviour has become too difficult.
One cardiac surgeon I know was held in very high regard but his staff couldn't handle his behaviour and eventually the hospital had to insist he go for behavioural therapy; he's npd but mostly the therapy I hear from his daughter focusses on anger management and behavioural issues )
As a n-victim though it is helpful to pin this label on our n-relative, in order to decide how we're being affected, how n-people function, and what we can do about it.
Of course- much of that too is a generalisation, but I personally have found it the only way to move forward and to be able to call halt to potentially similar relationships.
My n-h hates me referring to n'ism, even though I think he recognises most of the factors in himself.
But I feel that's only natural: if someone wrote about my bipolar disorder in its purely most stark and negative terms: incurable chronic mood disorder, completed suicide occurs in @ 15% of individuals, characterised by recklessness ( in sexual encounters, spending, projects or investments ) grandiosity, talkativeness, little requirement for sleep or food....
Took me ten years to accept my illness because I saw it in purely negative terms.
But back to the blaming of mothers- no, it was not my mother's or my father's fault for that matter: it is a genetic chemical imbalance or abnormality; which characterises many mental illnesses or conditions.
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thank you storm child. your kind words and advice were very much appreciated.
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I'm sorry, but I don't think I understood anything I just read. How does it apply.....or am I just dense?
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Dear Janet,
I've recently come to the realization that my sister is N., and one thing I've learned is that they are so concerned with their image and what other people think, or rather what they think other people think about them. However, they lie so much, you really don't know what the truth is. They tell you what they think you want to hear, or what they think will impress you. Obviously, mr man wanted to impress you because he felt that you were worthy to impress. Kinda a compliment, I guess. Lucky me, I have a sister that constantly puts everyone in my family down and tries to degrade them, embarress them, or humiliate them, including myself.
Such is life, what are you going to do? My mom (whom my sister confided in me and told me, "I hate that old woman, and I can't wait until she's dead....") always sided with this sister trying to tell me, just keep the peace please for me. God knows, at times, you just want to give them a swift kick in the butt, at least I know it would make me feel better. :lol: Personally, it would be one of the greatest pleasures in my life. However, back to you, thank God you realized it before you said the fatal "I do." Trust me, run like the wind and don't look back.
Hello,
I read some of the posts and am a little confused. I know the jerk I was involved with is a Narcaissit, and throw in a bit of sociopath and histrionic and you got the thing I was involved with, but here is where I am a little interested...
He was about 6 weeks premature when he was born back in 1959. He told me that he did everything he could to help his mom out to the point that she would send him to the store to get things they didn't need because he wanted to just do something for her. (as I write this maybe it is making a bit more sense, but we'll see)
He was engaged while his mother was alive and then had called it off apparently not very long before the wedding and while they were all sitting there at the table his mom said to his dad "Say something".
At any rate I guess his father was more along the silent type and he really took to his mom. He told me stories of how his mom got cancer and he would carry her up and down the stairs to take her to her doctor's appointment.
He and the fiance ended up getting back together and had planned on getting married but his mom fell ill when he and the fiance were on a trip. He said he got word of the news and rushed home and was able to be there before she died. He told me that he blammed himself for a long time because he didn't give his mom something to hold out for, the wedding.
It's kind of confusing because he would tell me stories about his ex wife and she was the one he always wanted to be with in high school and apparently her dad never liked him (gee I wonder why). But about a week or so before the wedding he called it off because something didn't seem right...yah, he wasn't right.
This is the woman he ended up marrying and giong to see private escorts with sometime down the road. This is the guy who told me he never cheated on his wife (and I am no one to judge) but I dont' know when your lawyer finds in the discovery process from divorce that there were payments made to private escorts and hotel rooms, hmmm makes you wonder you know?
I dont' know...any thoughts???
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Quote:
PS> all the n-s I've known so far ( 4, possibly 5 ) it was the faulty relationship with the MOTHER which let them down
I just wanted to add that my N( b/f's) mother (who seemed nice to me when i met her) seems to be hated by my b/f but then he doesnt seem to like his father either (who cheated on his mother for 50 years) He blames her for NOT doing something about it and making them all keep secret about what was going on. (He had four brothers and one died) I noticed he cant stand loud women around him (His mother would yell and was loud all the time,embarrsing him and bring his faults to everyones attention)
He carried the shame of his father giving money,a house and carring on with women (some married) and he resented his mother for not speaking up. He seems to have little respect for women in general but craves to be loved and needed by them (but has a horrible time showing any kind of affection) She was never affectionate with her kids,or it soundsl like with her husband.Menawhile his Dad was sleeping with every women in town. So I guess this is another case of Mom letting the kids down (?)
but then Dad too was pretty bad.
wildrain~~
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Hi Everyone,
My ex seemed to idolise his mother, who had brought him up on her own. I never met her because she lived abroad, but boy did she look tough in her photo!
Even in my addicted (to him) and unquestioning state of mind, it struck me as strange, because he told me that even when he was in his late teens, she would still check that he had cleaned his teeth.(On some days during our r/ship, he would tell me that he had not cleaned his teeth that morning, because as his mother was not nearby he didn't 'have to.')
He also told me that when he was a teenager, if he brought a new girlfriend to his home, his mother would sometimes tell the girl not to get too excited about him, because she was just the latest in a long line! (Is this Mum sabotaging something, or speaking the truth, or basking in her son's ability to charm the pants off anybody?)
Is this kind of idealisation, mingled with a fear of being controlled, a familiar pattern? (And incidentally I've just remembered that in the phase of our r/ship when my ex thought I was the most wonderful angel he'd ever met, he ALSO used to accuse ME of controlling him.)
Sending love to everyone here,
Lara.
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I am a nurse working in psychiatry for 20 yrs. Not alot of definitive research on causes of n. Some argue there is a genetic component. Most believe there was some sort of neglect, abandonment or abuse to the child at the early age when trust is being developed. typically for male Ns there was some element, either overtly or covertly of above with their mothers. If one doesn't learn to trust parents- they are first and only role models for kids- kids invent themselves and use others to protect themselves. It's been my expereince where there is one N in a family, you usually find another. In my family, my mother was a N and my older sister is one. Of her kids, 2 are N. My other sister has a N daughter. My mother was told repeatedly by her father she wasn't wanted and if they did want another child, she should have been a boy. She had 2 much older sibs who tortured her. My older sis- the N- was spoiled rotten, was raised as only child( is much older than me) and my N mother controlled and lived vicariously through her. This sis's oldest daughter also was totally catered to, all her horrible behaviour excused. My younger sis's daughter- a N- has grown up in a household where she too was spoiled, no discipline and she terrorizes her family. she is deviod of empathy, completely self centred , and uses people. Very flamboyant, a liar and is a hypochondriac.
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I posted this because the subject was about N's hating their parents, but I never got that feeling from the N I knew. He told me the stories about his mom and all.
I guess I am just wondering if the behavior I mentioned in my earlier post and this one fit with the npd thing because it seems that the n's tend to hate one or both of their parents and I didn't get that from N in this case....
But, I do know he is a great actor, so maybe
Hmmm ... your xguy sounds like my Nbrother. He and my Nmother have this strange bond. And wouldn't you know it, he even lives right behind her. Strangely he purchased and lived in his home for many years before my Nparents decided to retire and build right behind his home. Their backyards are literally connected!!! No fence!!! :shock:
In my Nbrother's eyes my Nparents did a great job and I'm the one that doesn't know what I'm talking about. My Nbrother was my abuser too. He continued to perpetrate on his wife when I "left" the family. They divorced and he began on his new wife. I know because she told me when I met her in 1998.
There's no hate relationship between my Nbrother and my Nparents. They all get along just F.I.N.E.!!! My Nmother worships the ground my Nbrother walks on and vice versa.
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I am late coming on to this post, but had a few comments to make. As I work through my childhood in therapy, what I have determined is that my father was the n, but I have more resentment towards my mother because she supported and enabled the behavior and never put her children first. I believe this to be true of my xh as well. His father is a raging n that was an alcoholic my xh's whole life. I think he unconsciously resents the fact that his mother did not leave this man to protect her children, in addition to the alcoholism being a family secret that no one would discuss. But he is conflicted by the resentment because his mother was the only one who supported him and his love of music and the stage when he was growing up. His father was only interested in his children who were athletic and academic as he had been. Stupidly, my xh then went into business with his father and has allowed himself to be totally controlled by him for the last 25 years. The only normal sibling is the one who moved far away and has very limited contact.
I guess my point is, and I think it was made previously too--the father may be the n, but if our mothers, who we look to for nurturing, protection and love, did not do that, the lasting impact from that lack of protection from the perpetrator can be greater than the abuse itself. Based on my own experience, I am probably going overboard in my efforts to protect my children from the affects of their father's nism. It also creates constant anxiety for me that I need to get under control before it eats me alive.
Brigid
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From what I have reaed about N it is like a horrible death sentence of a life and caused by disruptions/ abuse by parents/those meant to love/care for the child and however nice they may seem to an outsider, it's really easy to be nice to an outsider but have no time for your own child. I don't understand how an N could not harbor resentment towards their parent for raising them o a life of such a torturous experience.
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PS> all the n-s I've known so far ( 4, possibly 5 ) it was the faulty relationship with the MOTHER which let them down...
Isn't that what has been said about every single mental illness and afflication since time began? Are mothers still to fault for everything? Granted there are some doozies out there. But there are so many other things influencing kids, such as, oh I dunno, dads?
Dad can have a tremendous impact on their daughters. If they don't give them the support, love and acceptance they need, the daughters will marry someone very similar to their father. They can also lose sense of their identity as a girl/woman.
My Nmother disliked her mother. She probably hated her too. Although I never heard her say that but she said horrible things about her. She was very abusive to my Nmother, her sister and brother. My Nmother didn't get the brunt of the abuse but watched her siblings get it.
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i identify with this question. i am 58, and until fairly recently, never understood what was wrong with my "evil" sister (my other sister is fine). my two sisters are 13 and 15 years older than i, with the eldest being the "evil" one. i knew that she tried to turn my mother against my sister, my father, and me. she was truly the meanest person i ever knew. now that i've learned what "projection" is.........well, she was the queen of projection. mother was a rather weak and dependent individual, which proved a perfect target. i have an older son (37) who is very much like my evil sister. i often wondered why he began targeting me. his father and i provided a loving and stable home (a 40 year marriage) for him. by the will of God (or nature, if you will), i wasn't able to have more children until the first son was almost 12. he resented the sister and brother that came along, even though we remained totally devoted to him as well. i was always a stay at home mom. we never left the children with babysitters, were always involved in their school, extra curricular activities, encouraged them to explore their talents, etc. we loved our children.......all of them. he, however, resented me for having more children, and began trying to undermine my authority with the little ones. he would tell them i was stupid because i wouldn't let them watch MTV when they were little ones, or X-rated movies, etc. he would switch the tv when i would leave the room. everything is too long to go into now, but i just want to say that i must take issue with theories that N's have to have had certain traumas, such as molestation, abuse, etc., during their childhoods to become N's. I think that some people are just wired a certain way, and they would end up being N's no matter what. I only speak from experience. My oldest son has no empathy, is cruel, feels entitled, is lazy, cannot express emotions (other than anger), makes fun of people who do show emotion, is envious if someone has something he does not have, brags,............and the list goes on. he was not raised like that, nor did he witness that behavior growing up. i just don't understand.
Other good posts here.Of course only a cetified APA mental health professional can legaly label someone with a PD.Especially with "Psychopaths" unless they are incarcerated this is not possible.So we guess.
Here are links that might be helpful.
http://www.geocities.com/lycium7/psychopathy.html
"Narcissistic Personality Disorder: These two disorders are close" ASPD/sociopaths/psychopaths a quote from this link
http://www.psychpage.com/learning/library/person/asp.html
All psychopaths appear to be Narcists,Narcists are not psychopaths.Narcists come in many degrees.So do Psychopaths acording to Harre considered numero uno expert on these Super deadly Vampires.In comparison the garden variety Narcist is like catching a bad Tick.Unfortunately have known both types never to my knowledge on the scale of Ted Bundy or BTK though.Your description points to "PSYCHOpath" recently it has been shown that the brains of "Psychopaths" are different from average people.Can't remeber the part of the brain but it is where researchers think that emotions such as Empathy originate.
the consenous ive read from theMental health Gurus is that Nism has to do with caregivers but ASPD?Psychopathy/sociopaths extreme the emerging consenus they are born this way.
Good Luck be careful and discerning.
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I have alway wondered about my daughter's behavior and found this website. Reading the original message from the Mother and I found I could really relate to her story. I have a daughter (37 years old) who is the older of two children. Her brother is a fine caring person and very responsible. I was also wondering why one sibling is okay while the other is a "she devil". I could go on about her episodes but fear I would bore with the details. . My daughter is like a Jekyll & hide; she can be sickening sweet to other on the outside but verbally abusive to me. Anyone else want to comment? Thanks,
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Is it possible that she could have a mental illness? I have one child, out of several, who has a severe mood disorder. She has been very abusive to me and the other children. With medication, I see a big improvement. She had signs of problems ever since infancy--couldn't sleep, hard to comfort, that just got worse as she got older.
Gail
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Hi Liza Jane! Just read your post. D's behaviour may also be related to bipolar- if there's been a clear history of mood swings, depression, agitation, suddenly dramatically reduced sleep, speedy speech, increased disinhibited behaviour- classic- +++ spending, drugs and alcohol, promiscuity etc. Also may be one of the other fairly common personality disorders- cross overs with N and others- borderline personality disorder. If you're interested, check it out on the internet. You may recognize patterns of behaviour that may be very familiar and fitting the criteria. Boundaries and enforcing consequences- consistently and are enforceable. Anyway, food for thought. Moira