Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Anonymous on June 23, 2005, 11:00:49 PM
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Several times posters have expressed some doubt or confusion about their parent's behavior and, in particular, whether it was NPD.
From my understanding there is one unambiguous, truncated message that N parent's send to their kids on a daily basis- " You are nothing".
It manifests in several forms -
"WE are your all powerful parents,and we can do no wrong."
"Because we are perfect ,when mistakes and problems arise it is your fault."
" You are not to have any personal thoughts, feelings and wishes for yourself. We, as parents, will decide these for you."
"If you ever show any signs of self-satisfaction through your achievements we will crush. We decide when you feel good."
" We will decide when and how you are to feel your feelings- and we reserve the right to tell you that, even then, that your feelings will be wrong."
" We will tell you how hard to study, workout, try out for the team and we will choose your friends and control your social connections because we CAN."
" We will use insults, belittling, humiliation,sneering and criticism to 'discipline' you - this will build your character."
" We reserve the right to break our promises to you, to move the finish line and to arbitrarily decide what we want from you in order to show you how we can control you'"
" You owe us total compliance because we are your parents and we pay the bills."
In other words, children are valueless objects to be used by parents on a daily basis. If you are nodding, then you are the adult child of an NPD parent(s) Welcome!
John..
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Ooops! I did not logon before I posted the above --Jophil ( John )
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Nod, nod, nod....
"We require your complete unquestioned loyalty. Any attachment you form to anyone else shall be undermined, belittled, questioned, or otherwise destroyed until you have no other meaningful contact except with us. We. however, reserve the right to form any type of attachment to anyone, and to behave nurturingly to that person, and to confide all sorts of lies about you, and to call those relationships "daughter", or wish out loud that that person was your relative, and flaunt my admiration for that person, even though this is admiration you will never ever be able to earn, and you do not have the right to question this in any way."
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" We will decide when and how you are to feel your feelings- and we reserve the right to tell you that, even then, that your feelings will be wrong."
" We will tell you how hard to study, workout, try out for the team and we will choose your friends and control your social connections
" We will use insults, belittling, humiliation, sneering and criticism to 'discipline' you
" We reserve the right to break our promises to you, to move the finish line and to arbitrarily decide what we want from you in order to show you how we can control you'"
" You owe us total compliance
or as my daughter sums it up - "RESISTANCE IS FUTILE."
I love your summaries of 'what N's say'. I think we had the same family.
Its very interesting to compare their tactics with whats called a 'cultic relationship' which can be as small as between two people. its possible to have a cultic 'romantic' relationship, or a cultic family. ive come to believe these people control us similarly to how destructive cults control their targets. all these techniques especially the ones you mentioned are actually typical mind control techniques.
there is a theory called the BITE model of how people are able to destroy others self esteem and exert 'undue influence' over the choices and actions they take in life - our parents control us maybe more than anyone in life has the opportunity to.... the BITE model postulates that if you can control someones:
Behavior - what they do, what they are allowed to do, where they are allowed to go, who a person associates with, what they are allowed to experience in life -
their
Information they recieve - what version of the 'truth' they are forced to accept, whether they have free access to information and can make informed choices or if their information pool is limited and constrained so they cannot have informed choice about life and the world
their
Thoughts - the thoughts that are alright to think, the ideas that are 'ok' to have, whether they are allowed to 'disagree'
and their
Emotions - what emotions are 'allowed' or what emotions will be punished or discouraged.....
all these items being controlled by extremely standard tactics such as shunning, peer pressure, public humiliation, threat of excommunication, and constant shifting of expectations to unmeetable standards, among others, you can totally destroy someones personality and pretty much force them to do anything you want after a period of time. if this can work with consenting adults and total strangers in a cult situation imagine how devastating it is with a persons own parents doing it.....
its very standardised. if you study cult info its very very similar to what these controllers do and the techniques they used to break us down and make us targets for what they do.
just thought id toss that out becuase ive learned a lot about these people from studying mind control tactics.
take care
Anna
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Thanks Anna and 'the PluckyOne' , Up until I started reading this forum I had only a vague definition of my original family - "dysfunctional."
Now, after reading and posting here for a few months, I KNOW what they are. Their behavior has a name,and I have a diagnosis which fits my need to understand. Let the healing begin....John.
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This has come through in spades for me. My mother had offered to help me with the house repairs. In the mean time a small camper had become available that I could use to sleep on our river property. WHen I told her I had purchased the camper, that later fell through, she accused me of playing a manipulative, evil game to get money from her. First of all I never asked for it and she never gave it to me. YOu may remember that they recently gave my brother a 200,000 loan against their estate.
The message to me is we will help,but you will dance to our tune. THe camper deal fell through and I actually lost a substantial amount of cash to the deal, which is another story. So now I not only dont have their help, but lost that money also.
I am feeling pretty crappy today once again as help is given to the boys for all sorts of things, but not me. If it is offered there are strings. I am not sure what to do with my feelings right now. I am trying to feel them and work through it. I have thought of writing a letter to Mom but not sure that will do any good beyond getting my feelings out.
Here I was attempting to move outside the parental box and do something nice for myself. I was squashed mercilessly by both losing money on the deal and then having MOm go ballistic becuase I dared to step outside their wishes.
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John, Great list. My parents are heavily into compliance - even when they don't pay the bills! And they don't understand that they expect compliance. They would deny it and feel baffled at the accusation. A lot of stuff N parents do is knee-jerk in my opinion. They don't even know how bad it is. This is not an excuse, though.
Bliz, My feeling is that your parents' message is, "This family needs a trash dumpster and Bliz is it." You are the scapegoat. They are in massive denial of doing this to you; in fact they would deny concrete evidence of it, and you can't make them change. So here's what I'd do (unsolicited advice). I'd have a personal boundary regarding money. I would never talk to them about money. If they brought it up, I'd change the subject. I would not even mention the amount I spent on a candy bar. This eliminates a big bullseye for their target practice. Know what I mean?
bunny
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Up until I started reading this forum I had only a vague definition of my original family - "dysfunctional."
Nodding along. :roll: Would add some other than family relationships bring more nodding.
And some things on the list......done very subtley....to confuse. :?
"We reserve the right to send as many confusing messages to you as we think necessary to keep you under our control.....hooked."
Also:
"If you show any sign of noncompliance we will go ballistic!"
GFN
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Thou shalt appear only as we ordain. Any deviation from the hairstyle, clothing, or weight specifications shall be swiftly, harshly, and continuously punishable by humiliation, silence, withdrawal of invitations or material goods, and shall continue until said infraction is corrected and profuse apologies offered.
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Gee the'horror' list goes on and on !
I am really amazed that we are as sane as we are after being raised by these nutcases.
I have a question to any of you who have psych training -
My mother was the original passive abuser and my father was the N in the family.He waged psychological warfare on his children(4) and savagely controlled and stifled my mother. She had a nervous breakdown when I was 4 years old. He fit the stereotypical NPD profile and she fits the passive dependent wife cut-out . However he died in 1993 and since then my mother and my youngest brother now behave and sound just like my father. The same grandiose self-opinion,the same sneering attacks and so on, the same control attempts via money and so on.
My question is this . What in psych terms is going on here. I do love psych jargon. You guys have all the cool words. I am but a humble engineer who has access to the stadard physical science talk stuff which is a bit old .
Tell me about my Mom and my bro...
Johnimo
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John,
Your list could be made into a N's handbook to parenting and my X N would be your number one subscriber.
He is very skilled at squashing anything that brings joy to the children. He goes out of his way to look for negative qualities/behaviors and will highlight them..all the while looking right through the positive that is staring him dead in the face.
Mia
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Mia -I gather that you are refering to your N ex H ? Boy are this people sicko. Did you have any NPD in your parenting? I am tired of being an abuse magnet- time to kick some N butt. Too bad that they beyond dumb and will never 'get it'...
Johnimo
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My question is this . What in psych terms is going on here.
I will dare to respond although my psych jargon is nonexistent. I have a quote I like, can't even remember who it is from:
"How a minority, gaining majority, seizing authority, hates a minority!"
Your M and B are now able to get back at your only, inconvenient isn't it? that he's dead. So the nearest target is.......You! And they spent years in training!
The Plucky One
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Your list could be made into a N's handbook to parenting
He is very skilled at squashing anything that brings joy to the children.
thats so awful :( :( on websites about getting free from cults they actually prescribe laughing, to 'break' the spell... controllers HATE joy becuase joy is free, its not controllled. :} theres a place in hell for those who deny a child joy. i know it.
its funny you say that about parenting. just today I was thinking, i know my fathers idea of parenting, is like trying to bake a cake by putting a bag of flour and an egg somewhere kind of close to a bowl and yelling at them until they form a cake.....
after months of yelling or perhaps throwing things depending on preference all hapless ingredients are banished to the trash for their inexcusable personal failure to become a perfect nobel-prize winning cake...... geeeeeeeee wonder what went wrong....??????.
I seriously want to wrap their head with eels.... the electric ones....
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Hey Jophil
My parents were/are great (Dad passed away two years ago this August).
I was young and naive when I met X N. So far he has been the only N in my life....knock on wood. One too many though.
Mia
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Tell me about my Mom and my bro...
Disclaimer: This is a lay opinion not to be given any weight.
It is called "identification with the aggressor."
We all have internal worlds which interact back and forth with the external world. The internal world of someone like your father (who I consider a psychopath) has a template in it called the "stranger selfobject" which means his internal template of his own caregivers is that of vicious, dangerous, violent, cruel, sadistic personalities. This is his internal world/template and when a person has that template, nothing can change it. You are lucky to be alive, frankly, and I'm glad you are. Your mother and brother are now identifying with the aggressor as a way of trying to pull fragmented pieces of themselves together and keep themselves safe. They're still very traumatized.
bunny
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Thanks Bunny, One of the wonderful benefits so being a 'member' of this forum is that people like you offer such insightful information. Your post has given me another piece of the puzzle. In the past few months I have been been able so understand whaich and what are my problems and whichare 'theirs'.
The lines of ownership are becoming drawn, really clearly. for the first time in my life. Dealing with an N is daunting and crazy making. They are boundary crashers and boundary destroyers and their trail of wreckage is breathtaking. Dealing with them is like trying to negotiate with a tumor -
I realise now that it is a matter of drawing firm limits and boundaries and being able to not get sucked into their mind games of blame and shame - a tough call but I am getting there.
Thanks again....Johnimo
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Bunny,
Thanks for the help. You are right. Sorry it took me so long to reply to you. I had actually been following this advice so not really sure where she came from with this. Personally and maybe you can add it to the list, I think she was mad at the brother they "gave" the money to. Oops, I guess that would fulfill your definition of me being hte trash bin. I didnt see it at first. She is mad at him becuase he bought another car and I am sure that wasnt in her definition of what he could do with the money. But she is afraid to confront him so confronts me.
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I wonder if the N's in our lives aren't functioning on a rather primitive level.
Bliz, your last post reminds me of my 2 dogs. When the younger one barks at another dog passing outside of our property, and can't get at that dog (because of the wall) he instantly turns on our older dog (who is usually Alpha dog) and almost in a crazed state (like he forgot his place) attacks him. My older dog now keeps his distance from the younger one when other dogs pass by....but he remains the boss of the squeaky ball and other important things. Basically, he ignores and stays away from the nutjob (who is a rather nice dog in other situations)!
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Mum,
Good analogy.
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I was walking along a corridor at work at lunchtime yesterday when a young girl ahead of me (on her mobile phone) said: "I love you too...". I smiled and thought she had a very sweet boyfriend. She then said: "Bye Mum, see you tonight".
I don't know why I was so moved by this short exchange only to say I can't remember my mother ever saying she loved me, least of all so easily and casually over the phone.
I felt lucky for that girl.
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Growing up I cant remember my parents ever saying, "I love you" or hugging me just for the heck of it. When I started the long path to recovery over 25 years ago I started telling them that I loved them and just hugging them when I felt like it. I remember that it seemed like a shock to them. Now they say it alot and I say it alot and the hugging is rampant. Let it start with you.
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Gee the'horror' list goes on and on !
I am really amazed that we are as sane as we are after being raised by these nutcases.
I have a question to any of you who have psych training -
My mother was the original passive abuser and my father was the N in the family.He waged psychological warfare on his children(4) and savagely controlled and stifled my mother. She had a nervous breakdown when I was 4 years old. He fit the stereotypical NPD profile and she fits the passive dependent wife cut-out . However he died in 1993 and since then my mother and my youngest brother now behave and sound just like my father. The same grandiose self-opinion,the same sneering attacks and so on, the same control attempts via money and so on.
My question is this . What in psych terms is going on here. I do love psych jargon. You guys have all the cool words. I am but a humble engineer who has access to the stadard physical science talk stuff which is a bit old .
Tell me about my Mom and my bro...
Johnimo
I'll take a stab at this, without using technical psych words, though. Sorry, John, i am a new student. But if you give me another year or so, i may be talking like a pro on this topic.
From what i understand about N people is that they did not form proper attachments with their parents or primary caretakers at the age of two. They are stuck in what Freud called the "anal" stage because they were not given the safety, freedom, and patience/love to learn properly how to control themselves (such as in bowel movements), thus, they grow up to control others. When a child at this age is harshly treated, he/she will withhold and become anal retentive because at age two, feces is looked upon as gifts to please the adults.
So, being anal would mean they are very irritable and frustrated with themselves and with life in general. This is the stage when they developed their extreme negative outlook on life. Then they become fixated or stuck in this stage, and are caught in a lifetime of using people to deal with their inner turmoil of frustration.
Because it started so long ago, it is so difficult to undo the damage and start fresh all over again. This is the most challenging of all the personality disorders. good luck to anyone who has been in contact with one.
For me, personally, there is no benefit to being around one, except for scientific study to observe and learn about them, in order to help treat those who have been destroyed by them. Thank goodness for all those books and websites like these that are readily available to help people who have suffered at the hands of N people. What Salvation !!!
Now back to my explanation of John's family:
All N's attach to N-enablers and form a symbiotic relationship, so when one passes away, it is very common for the remaining one to attach to another one to replace what was lost. For John's mother, she will form the same N relationship with whomever is around. In this case, there is a younger brother to fit this need. Without another N to form the mutual relationship with, John's mother would feel unwhole and void. She has been accustomed to a lifetime of being an N-supplier, so it would seem she really cannot live without continuing in this lifestyle, no matter how unhealthy it seems to most of us who know better or differently.
Hope i have shed light on this topic.
Switzerland
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Hey Switzerland:
That's pretty good light shedding if you ask me. :D Anal retentive certainly seems a big part of N.
GFN
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Hi GFN,
That's right. so the next time some nasty Narcissistic person :evil: does something annoying, just imagine that they are holding their :twisted: anal sphincter muscles very tightly for fear of letting go the feces which they perceive as gifts !!! Imagine the irony of this :o , while releasing the stress and anger of the moment. That should keep you sane and in a jolly mood. :wink: Whatever you do, you must refrain from getting into a fight with them because that is exactly what they want and need. So, don't do it. Just let it roll off of you. :roll:
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Hi All:
Hello Guest:
That's right. so the next time some nasty Narcissistic person does something annoying, just imagine that they are holding their anal sphincter muscles very tightly for fear of letting go the feces which they perceive as gifts !!! Imagine the irony of this , while releasing the stress and anger of the moment. That should keep you sane and in a jolly mood. quote]
You're right! hahahahahaha!! heeheeheeheeheeheeheehee! I can picture that!! And think: "Hold tight now! :D " Me sane?? Some days maybe. Others, maybe not so much. Aiming for jolly though. Yes!
Whatever you do, you must refrain from getting into a fight with them because that is exactly what they want and need. So, don't do it. Just let it roll off of you.
Good advice! Like off a headless duck!! Like over a falls into a pond! Calm detachment. Not always easy but doable.
Thanks, Guest.
Hiya Portia:
That was a pretty good vent. All those lies your step-dad defined you with! That was very mean, cruel, hurtful. Sorry for that P. :( Not fair you had to withstand that. Or your mom's projections, or your dad's cowardice. And her current insincerity. Not nice stuff. :( :( :(
13 is a hard enough age. I remember being 13 (way back in the dinasour days....one time...my daughter asked me......"Did they have t.v. when you were a kid?". I'm 46 but I guess to her I might have seemed like 64, or 640 maybe?? :shock: :shock: :D ).
13. For me, body changing dramatically. Feelings emerging that are new. Peer pressure intense. Wanting to be adult and not wanting to be (scarey idea??? :!: ). For you, ontop of all that you felt, ......a big, far away move that you don't want, with people who blame you for being alive. ((((((13 year old P)))))). :( :(
GFN
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just today I was thinking, i know my fathers idea of parenting, is like trying to bake a cake by putting a bag of flour and an egg somewhere kind of close to a bowl and yelling at them until they form a cake.....
after months of yelling or perhaps throwing things depending on preference all hapless ingredients are banished to the trash for their inexcusable personal failure to become a perfect nobel-prize winning cake...... geeeeeeeee wonder what went wrong....??????.
I love this metaphor. :)
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Whatever you do, you must refrain from getting into a fight with them because that is exactly what they want and need. So, don't do it. Just let it roll off of you
I can't seem to master this yet. :(
Although I do exercise more restraint now when compared to the past.
Mia
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GFN, thank you thank you. I might think about 12/13 year old P a little more. Maybe have a dream? (Thank you for all responses to the dream btw. I might go back to it one day. Embarrassed at not saying thank you earlier to the later replies...).
Hi October, oh boy: but now watching oldest boy beat his boys
It seems all the dictators, all the sadists, were beaten, physically and mentally hurt. October, do you witness now and not intervene, or speak out? See Alice Miller: 'For your own good' or even 'The truth will set you free'.
portia
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Portia:
Welcome. Very welcome. Anytime. Little 12/13 year old P had quite a time, I'm sure. And she deserves to be considered. Not treated in the nasty way she was. But hugged and reminded that she did nothing horribly wrong! Nothing to deserve being treated so!
sweet zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz's! :D
GFN
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October, do you witness now and not intervene, or speak out?
portia
Yes and no. I try to intervene, but not very successfully. I do not have a lot of power with my brother, but what I have I try to use as best I can for the boys.
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see below
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Whatever you do, you must refrain from getting into a fight with them because that is exactly what they want and need. So, don't do it. Just let it roll off of you
I can't seem to master this yet. :(
Although I do exercise more restraint now when compared to the past.
Mia
Hi Mia,
Don't be sad, and don't get mad.
Try this technique: When someone is nasty to you, first, you ask yourself:
"Does this nasty person really KNOW me?"
If it is an N, then, the answer is always going to be "NO" because they don't have the capacity for really knowing another human being since they can't even see themselves clearly. Right? Are you with me?
Then, you remind yourself that the nastiness directed at you is NOT personal because someone who doesn't even know you really cannot hurt you. Trust me on this one. Its true!
Then, you should notice the tightening of their facial muscles. Then, imagine that their other cheeks (down below) are even tighter. If you do this correctly, you should be chuckling a bit at this point, and feeling relaxed and joyful. (remember: feces=gifts. they are trying to hold it all in! :lol: )
For added effect, you can also remind yourself that the nasty person is reacting out of their ancient reptilian brain. I like to imagine that the nasty person has a crocodile head, and that he is just snapping away his jaws at anything that moves in front of him. Nasty people are not using their higher and more evolved mammalian brain which is is where empathy, compassion, and other humanistic qualities lie.
Hope everyone can make good use of these techniques i have created for dealing with nasty nasty people in the world. Whatever you do, never put your hand in front of their face. The croc jaws will snap. And don't try to wrestle with crocodiles unless you have been professionally trained.
Stay cheerful! :D
Switzerland
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I don't understand. What just happened here?
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Hi October, apparently (I’ve been reading again), one of the most effective ways of helping children who are abused is to be a ‘helping witness’. If you try to intervene, thank goodness for you. You could be the one good factor that helps those boys learn (later when they think about it, hoping they do) that they don’t have to do what was done to them.
A helping witness is there to let children know that their fears, their anger, their confusion is valid. That beating children is never for their own good, that it’s wrong and that the abusing adult is making a mistake. If a child can see that another adult sees the child’s point of view, it can make that vital difference.
And in making that difference, you’re shaping the future for better. You have that power! I wish you luck with them. It must be very painful and difficult for you having been an abused child witness yourself...
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A helping witness is there to let children know that their fears, their anger, their confusion is valid. That beating children is never for their own good, that it’s wrong and that the abusing adult is making a mistake. If a child can see that another adult sees the child’s point of view, it can make that vital difference.
Thanks, Portia. I think I know how important this kind of witness can be. Some time ago - maybe 2 years - I had a t who didn't believe what I said about when I was small. He discounted it all.
So I rang my aunt. My mother's sister. I told her about this, and I said that I needed someone who was there and who saw it all to say simply, yes, these things did happen. There was violence in this family and I saw it. There were behaviours which were not appropriate, and this is what they were. I said, perhaps a letter, or a phone call.
She refused to help. She said it was a long time ago, and that my mum never did anything to her ( :shock: ) and that she didn't want to get involved.
I haven't spoken to her since. The following Christmas I sent her a card, and inside I wrote that I am not ashamed of my mother, because she can't help being as she is. I am ashamed of her, because she had a choice, and she chose not to help me. But most of all I am ashamed of myself, for asking for help.
I am not going to be like this. In relation to the boys, I make a point if I visit of always finding them to say hello, and finding them again to say goodbye, and giving them a kiss. (Except the middle boy: we shake hands because he prefers it. :) I try to spend time finding out what they are doing, and joining in for a while too. And I sneak in cuddles when I can, though.) I haven't seen them for a while. Must go visit again soon. They are such lovely boys.
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S
thank you very much for the technique
Mia
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October, I remember this i think from way back when you talked about it? It rings a bell anyway, or I could be delusioning myself about that
She refused to help. She said it was a long time ago, and that my mum never did anything to her and that she didn't want to get involved.
I wonder what your mother didn't do to/for her. Good grief. Mustn't go raking over old ashes, thinking about childhood for goodness sake. Better brush it under the carpet. Button our stiff upper lips. What FEAR these people hold. Don't want to get involved indeed. It's this sort of incredible obedience to the social norm that has people just following orders. I know it's not their fault. I know they're only protecting themselves from thinking about their own childhoods. i realise she is very fearful of the wrath of some parental figure. But education and knowledge do not destroy people. Ignorance is not bliss!
I'm sorry October, for her denial about your past. :( :( :(
Do you think your feelings about this aunt and her denial may have been triggered here? Just occurred to me, could be wrong.
I sent her a card, and inside I wrote that I am not ashamed of my mother, because she can't help being as she is.
i don't imagine she (aunt) can help it either though, do you? Not on her own.
I am ashamed of her, because she had a choice, and she chose not to help me.
She may not have had a choice. Her own past may be tragic too. It's possible?
But most of all I am ashamed of myself, for asking for help.
You weren't really though, were you? or were you? I'd be a variety of emotions but not ashamed, I don't think, not sure?
I am not going to be like this. In relation to the boys, I make a point if I visit of always finding them to say hello, and finding them again to say goodbye, and giving them a kiss.
Good for you, good for you October. Giving them respect. I applaud you here. Whatever you can do, it matters so much. We can fight against endless repeating of the past. :D
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Hi Mia and switzerland
And don't try to wrestle with crocodiles unless you have been professionally trained.
I think becoming aware of and cleaning out the effects of being raised by N parents, or being manipulated by an N partner, counts as professional training.
Those who have been brainwashed to feed the crocs and now know how to avoid them are probably in a darn good position to educate and protect others from the effects. Just my opinion.
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Those who have been brainwashed to feed the crocs and now know how to avoid them are probably in a darn good position to educate and protect others from the effects. Just my opinion.
There is a story about the Buddha that I read somewhere (sorry, forgotten where) which tells of how he met a starving tigress one day, with her cubs. She was so hungry that he gave himself to her to be eaten, in order to save the lives of this tiger family. So she ate him. :?
I think this is the kind of level of sacrifice that N parents would regard as only right and proper. But to anyone else it is rather extreme. :)
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"Brainwashed to feed the crocs" - what great saying Portia.
I was thinking about how 'regular folk' would interpret a lot of what is written on this forum. I think that they would never even begin to grasp what WE understand instinctively by your statement above.
Johnimo
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You weren't really though, were you? or were you? I'd be a variety of emotions but not ashamed, I don't think, not sure?
Yes, I am ashamed of asking for help. That is the N/perfectionist in me.
She should have been able to say no without me overreacting. That is also Nish behaviour on my part. And I ought now to be able to forgive and forget. I may do this later in the year. C is due to get confirmed, and I will invite this aunt. Perhaps that will be one way to move forward.
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"Brainwashed to feed the crocs" - what great saying Portia.
I was thinking about how 'regular folk' would interpret a lot of what is written on this forum. I think that they would never even begin to grasp what WE understand instinctively by your statement above.
"regular folk" = "blissfully unaware" vs. "regular folk" = "deliberately unaware"
I can understand that someone who didn't have to learn these things to survive would not go to the trouble, so I can make some allowances for the first. They usually come to understand more as they get more information. The second is people who convince themselves they are unaware because they are afraid to face the truth. Like October's aunt. I don't have a lot of sympathy for people who take this selfish approach. Part of my brain realizes that they are just afraid and take this approach to protect themselves. Ironically, it renders them unable to have true relationships with the people closest to them.
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Don't want to get involved indeed. It's this sort of incredible obedience to the social norm that has people just following orders. I know it's not their fault. I know they're only protecting themselves from thinking about their own childhoods.
This makes me so, so angry! I'm not buying it.
About eneryone on this board who was victimized by an N in childhood, was done so with the implicit approval and help of an N-abler. These are shilly-shally, spineless, self-preserving wimps who did not have the decency or couldn't be bothered to stand up for a child. And I have no use for anyone who can't think for him/herself.
October, your aunt falls into that category. Even now, when you HANDED to her an opportunity to make up for it, and belatedly give you the support you rightfully should have had as a helpless child, she denied it? I am not going to make any excuses for her. Unless she is so incapacitated that she is on the verge of being committed, she could have been honest with you. What did it cost her?
If all of us can overcome what in some cases was horrific abuse, and extend ourselves to help others, she could have done that one little thing for you.
You ought to be proud that you gave her that one last chance to be human. She flunked the test. Off with her head.
A steaming
Plucky
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Some random thoughts....
-- Sometimes intervening when a parent is abusing a child results in the parent taking it out on the child later. It's a very dicey situation, and I don't have a good answer for how to handle it. Sometimes showing the parent some empathy for the difficult time they having is the way to go. (hard as that sounds!)
-- When someone approaches a family member to confront them about the past, it is very likely that the confrontation will result in denial and more traumatization. This is really, really, really tragic. That is why I almost cry thinking about the NHS in England and how crappy it is, that people don't have access to decent mental health care and are forced to "Do it yourself" methods that retraumatize them. {{{ October }}}
bunny
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Sometimes showing the parent some empathy for the difficult time they having is the way to go. (hard as that sounds!)
No, that doesn't sound hard to me. Every time I see my brother lose it I am taken right back to when he was hit by my mum, from as far back as I remember - very young - and how she would hit him over and over while he tried not to cry, and she got more and more angry with him, until finally he had to cry out loud, and then she was happy with what she had done. It was all about power and domination and breaking his spirit. Bitch.
So now, when I see him lose his temper, I do not get angry with him. I cry with him. But I get very very angry with my mother. She is the one doing the abusing really; even now. I watch him afterwards, and usually he has tears in his eyes, because he doesn't know why he is doing it.
I know I should think only of the boys, and I do, because they are the most vulnerable. But I also think of my brother, and how nobody ever was there to help, and how I told dad and he did nothing.
-- When someone approaches a family member to confront them about the past, it is very likely that the confrontation will result in denial and more traumatization. This is really, really, really tragic. That is why I almost cry thinking about the NHS in England and how crappy it is, that people don't have access to decent mental health care and are forced to "Do it yourself" methods that retraumatize them. {{{ October }}}
bunny
This is all true. But there has to be a way to break the cycle.
I tried talking to my brother about this some years ago. He cannot remember being beaten by our mum. I told him that it happened, and that I remember, and that dad remembers too. I am not sure whether he has ever thought about it since then or not. It is very hard to find a time to speak to him on his own; he fills his life up with being busy. Possibly in order not to think.
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Off with her head.
A steaming
Plucky
Hehehehe. Yes, that is an appropriate punishment for any enablers out there. Guillotine, sword or axe? Axe, I think. On Tower Hill. :lol:
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I know you’re angry and like to see you really angry here! There’s a lot of justified anger in you I guess. I had lots of anger too. It has to come out. Who are you talking about above? Mother, who else? Who was spineless and self-preserving and didn’t stand up for you? Family, teachers?
Quote:
I have no use for anyone who can't think for him/herself
You can think for yourself though Plucky can’t you? Was there a time when you couldn’t, or weren’t allowed to think for yourself, when others tried to get you to think what only they wanted you to think?
You’re okay plucky, all emotions are allowed, all feelings are valid.
A person can't get anything past you lot! I think I was actually being a bit harsh up there, now that you explain why people stop thinking for themselves, if what they uncover is too painful to deal with.
When I was young I had no idea that my childhood was dysfunctional. And I can't even think of anyone now that I could have expected to stand up for us - what went on in the privacy of our home, no one knew.
But if there had been someone, I think I would feel betrayed by that person. But getting down to the basis of my anger, maybe it is generated or fed by my husband. I feel he does not take the energy to be the best parent he can and just does the minimum. Most of our conflicts over the years have had to do with how he treats the children. He is not overtly abusive to them, but he is not attentive and does not put their needs first. Unless I fight for it.
I've always been able to think for myself. Speak, no. Stand up for me, no. Protect myself, no. Set boundaries, no. But I've always had my secret thoughts. And until now I did not realize that for some people, even their secret thoughts have been violated.
That is a horrible level of violation, and I pray that all who experience it can heal. I'll have to be more tolerant and understanding.
A penitent and wiser
Plucky
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A penitent and wiser
Plucky
What a great place this board can be.
mud
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This is all true. But there has to be a way to break the cycle.
Here is my idea on how that is done. Going to the perps or enablers for validation does not work. It's optimal to have a good therapist (unlikely in England :cry: ) to validate and contain the feelings of helplessness, rage, shame, terror, etc. The perps/enablers can't contain any of this! If they could, the abuse wouldn't have happened in the first place. The other way to break the cycle is simply to parent your own children differently -- that you are doing already.
bunny