Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Plucky on June 27, 2005, 02:25:39 AM
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My husband just drove himself to the emergency room to be treated for a deep knife wound that he inflicted on himself. Today I told him that I had given up on your relationship. He cut himself before, just shallow cuts, when I said I was considering divorce, and I backed off that time.
Now he is there and he is not going to tell them it was intentional. What can I do? Stay married forever to a guy who has no empathy? Leave him and let the father of my children bleed to death in a cheap motel room?
Not Feeling So
Plucky
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(((((Plucky))))))
Oh, dear. I am so sorry for this. I know that people who want to keep the patterns of relationships in thier life make counter moves to get others to stay in the same pattern with them....but this is really extreme.
Do you think he did this to get your attention, divert attention from the situation at hand, get you to feel sorry for him, or because he is mentally unstable?
You can't fix him. He is dumping his pain on you....and that is not fair. Please don't accept this for your life. You AND YOUR CHILDREN deserve more. Healthy love is what children need, not married parents with and unhealthy relationship.
I don't know if anything I said helps or not....I just want to send you strength and love, Plucky. Please be strong. You are.
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Plucky: you are in this situation and yet you are so strong, popping in on the board to offer your strength and love to others....
What a wonderful woman you are. Please know this....please understand that you deserve a happy life.. Don't worry about HOW it will come about, KNOW it will because you deserve it.
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Thank you mum. Oh God, what am I going to do?
He did it for control. Because he has bad pain and was trained not to let it out. Because today I said for the first time that his family of origin was dysfunctional and he should look at it, and at himself. Because he doesn't have too many tools to express himself. Because honestly, I do have some N traits that drive him crazy. I learned at the feet of a master. Because today I agreed to sell our house which I always spoke of as being our forever home.
Because he cannot deal with me. Or himself. I don't know why!!!!!!!!!
What should I do?
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Plucky, do you have a support system? Relatives, friends? Could you tell a trusted someone what is going on? Perhaps they could take the children to do something fun while you talk to a doctor or therapist? Is there someone at the hospital where he went who could be a resource for you or him?
This is not what normal people do when they are faced with something painful. You don't have to have this for your life. Love is NOT this hard.
The biggest lie I ever believed was that love equals pain. It's not true. My ex had so much pain it spilled out over to me and I mistook the intensity of it for love.
All married people drive each other a bit batty....but not like this. Do not take the blame. Please don't.
Can you call a hotline of some kind? Not just to talk but to get real help.
When I told my ex I wanted his cheating butt out of the house, I instantly felt sorry for him and began calling around for a place for him to stay. Sounds weird, but I was so used to taking care of his pain that I even did that. It was awful. When I stopped myself after several hours....and told him I was sorry, but this was up to him....he freaked, tried crying, tried yelling, mostly tried to get me to feel guilty, but he did manage to find a place by himself.
Your husband is an adult. This too, shall pass, Plucky. It will. You will be okay. Focus on being happy. Focus on no more drama. Try to find moments of peace....thinking about being happy ....how would that feel, what would that look like?
I am sitting with you. Still sending strength. Do NOT worry about your children. After this, I would be more concerned for them if you stayed.... Your children will be ok, don't even go down that dark road of worry. Breathe. Imagine life as you want it.... If for nothing else, do that to give yourself a break.
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Plucky, where is your husband now? Is he at the hospital? Can you send one of his friends or family members to help him or be with him?
You did not do this to him!!! He did this to himself. Don't take the blame for his self inflicted wound. He made a choice as an adult to do that...for whatever reason. It was his decision.
Are you safe? Are your children safe?
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(((((((((((((((((((((((((Plucky)))))))))))))))))))))))
Leave him and let the father of my children bleed to death in a cheap motel room?
I'm so sorry that your husband is doing this and that you are feeling as if you have any control over what he does (by letting him bleed to death).
How could you stop him? He will do what he decides to do.
You could stay with him and give him the message that he can control you with this behaviour. You could stay with him and give your children the message to let others control them by serious, threatening behaviour...which is what his behaviour is. You can stay with him and let him continue to behave however he likes, while you suffer and try to withstand a loveless relationship and endure all of his hurtful stuff. You can stay with him and teach your children this is what to do, in such situations. You can stay with him and wait for the behaviour to escalate, at his convenience, when it seems profitable for him to escalate it, or when he wants to control you further. He might decide to do that when the time seems right. You can stay with him and let his scare tactic of want possession of one of the children .......control your decisions.
Or.......
Plucky.....you can ignor this awful fear of what he might choose to do as a result of you standing up for yourself and your children... and move forward, toward a healthy, happier, safer life.
So sorry Plucky that this is so hard. Would you consider calling emerg and letting them know that your husband did cut himself for attention? This might be very important in future legal respects.
Keep posting, Plucky. We're here for you. Right now, I think you need tunnel vision........look down that tunnel and see you and your children emerging into the light, into a healthier home life, into peace and comfort.
Try to block out his acting out and think of it as acting out. If he chooses to behave like this, there is nothing you can do to stop it. You can choose to ignor it and take steps to protect yourself and your children from more of it.
He will not win custody of one child. This is highly unlikely. Courts are not totally dense. Judges know that children need their sibblings and they won't split them up for the purpose of making parents comfy. They decide by considering what is best for the children. Children are best, most often, kept with their sibblings. Please don't let this idiotic idea of his have weight in your mind or influence your decisions. It is not something that is usually done.
Out of all the people on this board, who are separated, or divorced, how many have had their children split up for the benefit of each parent?
I haven't read about that here. I haven't heard about it in real life, unless the child wants it, and is old enough to be considered by the court. That age is around 12 years old.
((((((((((((((((((Plucky))))))))))))))))))))
You can do this! You don't have to live like this! Please get as much support for yourself as possible and keep planning for a better life. Sending you strength to keep trying and keeping you in my prayers too.
GFN
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Here I go again but is there a woman's shelter you could call?
Even anonymously?
They will understand and often have so many helpful resourses.
(((((((((((((((((Plucky)))))))))))))))))
GFN
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Plucky,
I'm so sorry that you are having to deal with this. Mum is right that this is not your pain. He is an adult and he must figure out that his issues are serious and he must get help. I believe you have stated before that you do not love him anymore. If that is true, you can't help him and it certainly won't be healthy for you and your children to stay with him out of guilt. He may be dangerous--he certainly is to himself, but you never know if that could shift to you or the kids.
I would try to avoid visiting him if he is still hospitalized. Someone needs to know that this was self-inflicted. Is there a doctor there to tell who can then refer him to psych. This is not a secret that is good for anyone to keep.
Is there a place that you and the kids could go for a few days to decompress? I hope you have a support network of some kind nearby who can help you through this.
I'm keeping you in my prayers.
God bless,
Brigid
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Plucky,
Your husband needs psychiatric help. Please tell someone at the ER that his wound was self inflicted. Although they may figure it out pretty easily on their own. This is so far over your head. Staying married to him won't help his psychiatric problems. He needs doctors at this point, you can't help him except to get him the medical help. What he did shows deep, deep disturbance. And you need help too, from a good therapist who can support you.
Keep posting, you are not a bad person at all. We want to be here for you.
bunny
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Plucky,
would you stay if he'd cut one of your children, instead of himself?
do you have any idea if he's capable of doing that?
please listen to mum and bunny and others here. this is serious, and it could get a lot worse, and you and the kids need to be safe from it.
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I hope that the hospital does a psy eval on your husband.
He needs to be hospitalized in the psy unit since he is a threat to himself and possibly others.
God bless.
Mia
((plucky))
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Plucky. How's it going?
I am still sending you strength and light. Please let us know how you are doing.
Everybody here has the right idea....the hospital needs to know what he did. The truth is needed here.
I read, in the book "Crazy Time", about a woman who thought she had huge psychological problems and her husband appeared to be a victim. After she divorced him, it came to light that it was not HER, she had been poisoned by the awful relationship. She was not at fault, except for believing she was screwed up and responsible for her husband's issues.
She grabbed on hard to a different life and hung in there and broke free. I think you can too.
The author (forgot name, sorry) cited many examples of how toxic relationships can make any normal person believe they are a total mess.
I guess I tell you this because it may help for you to think this is not the time to focus on the past, or what part you played, etc. This is the time to focus on getting you and your kids to a healthy place.
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Thank you everyone. With your help, I am going to get through this.
I phoned the emergency room but my H had just left. I told them he had done it on purpose. It had bled a lot but it was actually not that bad of a wound. At that point they said they couldn't do anything.
I made my husband sit down and I talked about the effect on our children. How would he feel if it was one of them cutting himself? Even if they don't see him doing that, they don't learn from him appropriate ways of dealing with stress, so they could well end up being cutters.
Finally to get me off his back he agreed to find a therapist and start going. I told him he needed to have some tools to deal with things because divorce is long and sad and we were just starting. I do think he had planned for me to change my mind.
I don't think he is a danger to anyone. But I will be vigilant.
My feeling is that I have been catapulted again into the caretaker role. It seems like once again that he is one of my children. I have to close up my shell now, the shell I was able to open up here with the help of you all and let some of the garbage out.
I do think I have been awful to him at times, and even though he has not been good to me either, I don't excuse my own behavior. But he needs to address his own issues and stop pretending all is ok!
Maybe he is afraid to break down because he is the sole support of the family. I even had a hard time getting him to admit that cutting is an abnormal behavior.
To make matters worse, my mom is coming for a visit soon! Aaaarrrrgghhhh!
Not feeling the least bit
Plucky
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PS My H has no friends and no family nearby. I have very few friends and they are new. I can't think of anyone I could call to go to the ER to talk with him- heck I can't think of anyone to tell about this, except you on this forum.
Thank you for being here.
Feeling Less
Plucky
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hi plucky :}} i love your name.
I Hope things are feeling stronger for you today.. what a nasty thing to go through.... i cant add much to what everyone said but my feelng with your husband is this:
it might help to really steel yourself and think of him like a small child threatening to hold their breath until they die..... its highly unlikely he really wishes to damage himself fatally or seriously.. hes an adult, his survival instinct is there like anyones. imo its pretty likely he is doing most of this totaly for attention and to manipulate you emotionally......
what would you do with a little kid throwing a tantrum? I would think most good parents would ignore it...... not buy into it.... not give it energy.... and let the child deal with the consequences of their own actions, til they figured out it wasnt the brightest way to deal with the situation......
i hope you can do therapy, certainly cannot hurt, but it might be good to be ready for the idea that its just a delaying tactic from him and he doesnt really plan to change. :( hope this isnt the case but, it could be likely.
what i would really suggest as you begin to disentangle from this, is to begin to let him take the consequences of these self-harm actions on *himself*..... knowing their purpose is largely to try to manipulate you anyway.... and DOCUMENT. i have sympathy for cutters but i think in this case hes using it to manipulate you. everytime he throws a little fit with knives make sure *everyone* knows he did it himself, get it on record as many times as possible with everyone you can, police even, hospital records, everyone, and get yourself a *notebook* or diary and document, every time. it will be invaluable when you come to court. get information from domestic violence shelters. they may suggest asking him to leave the house. you may qualify for a restraining order. people are not going to like it that he is doing this with little children around.
with a history of getting out knives anytime something goes wrong he will NEVER get your children. (and no court will ever split them up, thats insane) but you *have* to document, and keep control of your own behvior in the meantime...
stay strong plucky. i have faith in you!!
d's mom
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Plucky: you are in this situation and yet you are so strong, popping in on the board to offer your strength and love to others....
Thank you mum. I still respond to others because you all are responding to me, and saving and helping me, even when I think your situations are much more difficult and I am just being a crybaby.
And to be honest, to empathise with someone else makes my own issues loom less large. So it is not altruistic!
Thank you everyone who responded. I really needed that.
Still somewhat
Plucky
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oh, alternatively though, if you *do* truly believe he is truly suicidal, a case could be made for involuntary commitment.... which he probably would not want....
if you let him know clearly that if he does this again you are going to suggest he is locked up for his own safety (and yours), it may serve as a deterrant as well.
take care
d's mom
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I don't think he needs to be locked up. I do think he needs help of some kind, and maybe a break to think things through.
Thanks for saying I am not responsible. I will try to internalize that.
Not feeling very prolific here. Maybe I'll have more guts to spill later.
Plucky (aka Draggy)
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Hello Plucky, just wanted to say:
If you don't want to put up with your mom visiting, you don't have to.
If your mom vsiting will help you in any way, and you want it, fine.
If you don't want it, get rid of this additional worry. You don't need another worry now, you have enough to deal with.
I don't know if it would work, but could you use some words like?: "H and I are going through a very bad situation right now and we cannot deal with anyone visiting, so please don't visit. It's our problem and we don't want to involve anyone else."
Any reasonable person would respect a statement like that and stay away. And you could say that too.
And how are you? These are very testing and changing times. Take care of you please, we're all only human. best, P
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PS Plucky:
even when I think your situations are much more difficult and I am just being a crybaby.
All situations are difficult BUT I see yours as a real opportunity for you and your H and your kids. The willingness to change the situation is everything. You are so willing to change! Do you know how fantastic that is? It is :D and your situation is very difficult, to me...
Here's a guess: were you allowed to be a crying baby? All we have is cries when we can't yet talk. Sometimes we need, even as adults, to be crybabies. I did/do and there's nothing wrong with it, if it's done in a safe setting, and with understanding about what we're crying about - our lost childhoods - rather than 'acting out' against others (you know that one and hey, it's over, no big deal?) or acting out against ourselves... I would guess your H is in great pain and cutting is his way of lessening that pain (btw did he do it privately, secretly? That would be the norm I think). As adults we are responsible for what we do and your H isn't an adult, as you say. He really isn't. You can treat him with detached kindness and compassion, but he's responsible for himself.
Anyway, getting side-tracked, what i wanted to stress is that you have equal rights here to tell your truth and ask for what you want (what you want, not just what you need, okay?). It sounds like you're alone with your responsibilities and you need to talk and listen. Please know that you are entitled and encouraged :D best, portia
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Thank you Portia. Thank you for thinking about me, and my interests. Thank you for extending comfort and support to me.
If your mom vsiting will help you in any way, and you want it, fine.
...I don't know if it would work, but could you use some words like?: "H and I are going through a very bad situation right now and we cannot deal with anyone visiting..." Any reasonable person would respect a statement like that and stay away. And you could say that too.
Ah yes. But mom is a flaming N! So I don't want to have to deal with
1. Her knowing anything is wrong here. Hello nonstop advice (although she has had 2 failed marriages, and 1 long term failed relationship. she is still an expert on relationships.).
2. My husband thinking I told anybody. He is rabidly private.
3. My mother going over to my husband's side and going on about my shortcomings, which date back to birth. Yes, it would happen.
4. My mother concluding that this is why something is "wrong" with my son. Nothing is wrong with him, but she tells him he is an "unhappy child" and that we are mistreating him by not keeping his light on all night.
5. My mom having a field day saying that we invited her and then threw her out. I will never ever hear the end of it.
If I don't tell her what is happening, she will not stop until I cave in or change my phone number. She will set my sister on me. She will tell everyone we know. She will offer all kinds of "help".
It's easier to pretend while she is here. It's not like she is tuned in to anyone but herself! Plus, the kids like her visiting, at least for a few days.
Here's a guess: were you allowed to be a crying baby?
How did you figure that out, all-seeing all-knowing Portia? I was not. As an infant I was looked after by my paternal grandmother while my mother spent half the week out of town. Since I was not supposed to have been born, I was certainly not supposed to make any noise. As a young child I remember crying myself to sleep and just wishing someone would comfort me. When I was single I thought that if I got married at least I would have someone to hold me when I cried. Still waiting for a safe place to cry (this board is it for me, actually).
rather than 'acting out' against others (you know that one and hey, it's over, no big deal?)
I hope so. I hope so. I have been able to back off from unappropriate anger many times since my big blow out. My kids are starting to open up like little flowers.
I would guess your H is in great pain and cutting is his way of lessening that pain (btw did he do it privately, secretly? That would be the norm I think).
I don't know if or how many times he cut himself privately. The first time I saw it he let me see and he told me. The second time he woke me up and asked me to put something on his arm so he could drive himself to the emergency hospital.
...what I wanted to stress is that you have equal rights here to tell your truth and ask for what you want (what you want, not just what you need, okay?). It sounds like you're alone with your responsibilities and you need to talk and listen. Please know that you are entitled and encouraged best,
Thank you for this permission to bore everyone silly with my rantings! And I will. It may sound flippant but I am really touched and this makes me feel good. I'm not good at responding to acceptance and encouragement, when it comes to these topics. Thank you again to everyone who has allowed me to start unwinding my fetters.
An inarticulate, blubbering
Plucky
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Plucky.... I notice that you really are tough on yourself. You are not inarticulate at all.. Your writing is very easy to understand, and you write beautifully.
If you are guilty of whining or boring us here with your problems, then you are part of a very big club of boring whiners!! That's what friends are for. I don't notice that you are one sided in your postings. As a matter of fact you were helping others out while you were managing your own pain, and then very self effacingly said it wasn't completely altruistic of you, as you got something from it as well.
Well, your in a HUGE club with that one. When we help each other we always help ourselves. That's the design of life....we are all in this together.
So if you feel the need to wear a hair shirt sometimes, that's ok.....just wanted you to know, it's not necessary. You are an amazing soul.
What you are learning right now through this struggle is emmense... and you can be compassionate with yourself. I think that is what you need more than anything. .....No mom to comfort your tears, how awful.....but YOU get to comfort yourself and be kind to yourself now. That's what you are learning to do.
You deserve that love ....give yourself that break. I do. I think you are doing soooo well considering your current situation. Situations change.....loving souls remain loving. You will be ok.
Trust yourself. You will know what to do. You need not second guess yourself anymore. Tune into what you want out of life, follow your heart and stay true to yourself. You will not only survive, but you will prosper.
((((((Plucky))))))
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Oooooh mum. I think I love you. Thank you for all the wonderful affirmations. Thank you for being my friend.
My husband left for out of town today. Later on, my 4 year old found one of those box cutters on the floor in our room. Luckily the 6 year old got it and brought it to me.
Now what was it doing there? Now that I think about it, why do we even own one of those? Oh God.
Was he going to pack it and dropped it? Was it in a convenient place to use? My mind is whirling and I don't know whether to worry about our safety.
My H did say he made an appointment with the therapist. I asked for the name and told him I was going to phone. I want to make sure he is going and that the T knows he cuts himself.
Not at all
Plucky
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Plucky. How awful, finding another sharp item (even more so that your child did).
How about finding and removing all knives, razors, etc from your home in his absence. Buy him an electric shaver. Keep only the most necessary kitchen sharps and put them at your neighbor's or in a locked tool box.
I sound nutty, I know.....but you may need to send a hard core message to him....and this might be a way to do it. Just a thought...
If I had an alcoholic in the house I would do my best to keep alcohol out of the house.....(well actually, I just got rid of the alcoholic!!...and ironically, there hasn't been alcohol in my house since then).
Don't know if that's even practical....but knives seem to be an issue, no?
:roll:
I do think you are amazing.... so should you!!!
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I think I will move out most of the sharp knives. I am feeling a bit nervous.
Should I mention to H that my son found the box cutter or not? I will mention it if I get a chance to speak to the therapist.
Thanks again.
Plucky
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Morning Plucky :D how are you?
Why do we connect more with some posts, some people? Shared ways of thinking, similar experiences, perhaps similar personalities I guess. You said you tested out as INTJ as do I, and your posts bear that out – very thoughtful as opposed to ‘feeling’ and so on. You’re most welcome to any words from me, but like you, it’s not pure altruism: when we help others, we help ourselves. If I tell my story, make myself vulnerable, it may help others who think/feel in a similar way. I have felt so exceptionally grateful, grovellingly grateful to folks here – to the extent of wondering why do they want to help me? Because after all – I’m not worth it am I?? Suspicion can start – what are ‘they’ after from me….and paranoia kicks in. Then I would start to mis-read words on the screen and imagine there were people trying to undermine me…
It was all in my head. Mostly it’s all in our heads that dictates how we think, feel and react to others. The parents in our head, the partners in our heads (our view of them): if we change what’s in our heads, we think and much more importantly, feel differently too. Simple eh <compassionate irony laugh>. Hard work, very hard work! Lots of it too and it doesn’t stop but once you’re on the road, are you going to stop? No :D no no no! 8)
You deserve to be thought about. Just as much as anyone and everyone. It’s not something you earn, it simply is. You are free to not ‘owe’ anyone anything here and you are free to take what is offered. Is it difficult to take and not feel obligated in return? It was/is very difficult for me. I hadn’t ‘got’ the notion of mutual respect and reciprocal relationships. I’m getting it now…slowly. There’s still a tiny voice that says “I’m not worth it!” and I tell the various parents in my head to “shut up!” because I get to decide that now. Not their voices in my head. :D
I’m glad if I say something to help but pleeeeaase, I’m not omniscient. I wouldn’t be here. When I joined this board in Dec 03, I knew next-to-nothing – I knew I was going potty. I wanted to know what was wrong with my mother and what it meant. Recognising thinking and feelings from the past and how we use them now, inappropriately, is what helps us change I think.
Sorry, this sounds to me like a lecture. I don’t mean it to. I’m just passionate about the subject!
About the Mother Visit. Will it be easier to put up with than not? I can see your reasoning and from what you say, I agree with you on the practical side (the hassle of outside interference that could escalate) – and I know what it’s like to have a very private H, mine’s the same, it drives me a bit nuts but I try to keep his stuff private, if not mine. Tricky! Anyway, your reasons make sense to me, as long as it doesn’t take an equally destructive toll on you when she does visit. I’ve got fed up with being strong and capable all the time, so I just say ‘no’ sometimes now. The sky doesn’t fall in. I say I’m depressed or not up to it, and I find that narcissistic types don’t like that, unless they can work out some way to use it to their direct advantage. They can feel superior of course (so what?) or they can try and meddle but if I behave ‘badly’ enough (stick to saying no), they won’t risk being humiliated by me (turned away from the door). They don’t risk humiliation. Unless they’re on the psychotic side.
How about when she visits, tell us here what happens to keep you grounded in some reality. And to let your feelings out too. For the record, I think your mother is intolerable, but then my tolerance levels have changed!
Since I was not supposed to have been born, I was certainly not supposed to make any noise. As a young child I remember crying myself to sleep and just wishing someone would comfort me.
Is that one of your earliest memories? :cry: Do you know just how sad it is and how cruel it is? (((((((((little girl Plucky))))))))) You have the right to exist (fact) and you have the right to expect comfort and respect (fact).
My kids are starting to open up like little flowers.
:D Great! Wonderful! How is it showing? Want to talk about them?
H cutting: it’s not your responsibility and it’s not your job, okay? But if you want to know for yourself perhaps why and what’s behind it here’s one factsheet:
http://www.mind.org.uk/Information/Booklets/Understanding/Understanding+self-harm.htm
I bet that link makes the page go w...i...d...e….
Keep posting!
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ooopsie wide page :D sorreeee :roll: need lots more posts to flip to the next page now....bye for now, P
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((((((((Plucky)))))))
Just want you to know that I'm here with you and that I agree with others here who have said that you are worthy of love...of loving yourself....of expressing your thoughts, feelings, wants, needs and that you deserve to be honoured and respected, and that you a part of a team (I like to think of all of us as a sort of "team" who are taking on the challenge of dealing with our individual difficulties, while supporting eachother/cheering eachother on :D ) (my fantasy/reality..heehee).
In the book, "Why is it always about you?", which I am in the process of reading, Sandy Hotchkiss gives some good suggestions in regard to dealing with parents who behave like N's. One thing she suggests is that we embrace reality:
"Another way to embrace reality is to create a mantra for yourself with the following message: "There is nothing I can do to change my narcissistic parent. I can never be perfect or pleasing enough to win his or her unconditional or consistent love. His or her inability to love and respect me has nothing to do with my value as a human being. The more I cling to my idealized fantasies of becoming perfect and having and ideal parent, the more I hurt myself. I will seek to discover my own uniqueness and to connect with people who are capable of recognizing me and accepting me for who I am. I am worthy of the love my parent was unable to give me."
You are doing a great job of the suggestions in that mantra, really, Plucky! You really sound like you are letting go of fantasies and doing your best to accept your imperfections (maybe a little hard on yourself??). I think you may be trying very hard to discover your own uniqueness, I hope so, and you are definately connecting with people who are accepting you. You are trying to internalize your own worthiness, as you have said this, but it is a challenge. Keep going! You're doing a great job so far!!
More from Sandy's book: "....you are entitled to set your own priorities without being manipulated by those who feel their claim on you should supersede all others......try to come to decisions about what you will and won't tolerate from your parent before situations arise. Do whatever is necessary to protect yourself and know that you have a right to do this. Then whatever you decide to do, do it as nondefensively as you can."
I think the word "husband" could be substituted for the word "parent" here, as necessary, without a whole lot of fuss. This advice seems like it may be applicable to a lot of us, who have been manipulated by others, who have had our priorities and decisions dictated to us by others, possibly sometimes, who have not had the skills to protect ourselves from N behaviour, and who have felt/or might even still feel defensive for whatever mechanisms we have used/do use to cope.
If you need to cry, it's ok. We are now a shoulder for you to lean on. What I hear coming from your posts is compassion. You seem like a very compassionate person who is trying very hard to consider everyone's needs, your husband's included. I can highly relate to that desire and I believe you can do that too, if that's what you choose to do. I'm very glad he has an appointment with a T. Hopefully, the T will help him. It's generous of you to put your kids desires securely in the equation.
However, Sandy's suggestions remind us all to take care of us too. To work on setting limits and boundaries, to claim our own space, to be intolerant of stuff we choose and not to tolerate, to recognize and deflect manipulation, to choose what's important to us and to ask for it, with respect, and then enforce our wishes calmly, in a detached way, that does not defeat us, or hurt others...including those who behave nish.
So......if your mother must visit, please take care of you. Enjoy a nice, lesurely walk, on your own, if need be. Take naps. Keep some distance, when you need it and try to remind yourself that you are looking after you, not using her. It will be necessary to help yourself through the visit. See if Sandy's suggestions make sense to you and if you can decide some things ahead of time and plan for them.
Sandy also suggests, which I can't seem to find the page at this moment, something like quiet, nonreation (not her words) but the basic idea is to ignor our urge to react, while trying to remain indifferent to the N's behaviour/manipulations/demands. I guess this is not easy to do but with practice, could turn out to be a very good thing. :D
Hoping some of this helps even a little.
GFN
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Hi everyone.
I feel so grateful for your help. I feel that maybe I'm not grateful enough and it might go away and I need it so much. I know you all keep telling me not to feel that way and you are right. I just feel that there is a well of unworthiness and I have to cry it out until it is empty. And then I won't be afraid.
I went to the dentist today. I was so afraid. Last time I went years ago he made me go through drilling of 2 teeth without anesthetic (a different dentist). It was more painful than natural childbirth. Then I remembered that when I went into labor with my second child, my mother was staying with us at the time and wanted to start an argument. She was angry that I was cutting the argument short to go to the hospital to give birth! I got there too late for the normal anesthetic.
My H is coming back today. It is so nice when he is gone. I feel better getting this out, although I know it is a bit disjointed. I had 4 minutes to cry, now I have to go pick up my son and not look sad to the teacher. Wouldn't want her thinking his home life is not good.
Anything but
Plucky
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Sorry you're feeling so sad Plucky but glad you feel comfy enough to say so and to cry a bit. Good release, I think.
I know you all keep telling me not to feel that way and you are right.
You feel what you feel, Plucky and that's ok. But...if you try to change your thinking ...if it seems like a good idea.....it will effect the way you feel.
For example. You've said you feel unworthy...... could this be because you have some thoughts in there that are giving you this message? Memories from the past? Words spoken by others? Maybe long ago? Maybe not so long ago?
Like tapes playing in our heads, we hear stuff...whispered stuff....unconscious stuff sometimes... that keeps us in this place of feeling less than others.....unworthy (or other negative stuff about self).
But......for me, if I try to think stuff.......different stuff...... like:
"I'm not listening to those tapes anymore" and
"I am worthy"........
I find....my feelings gradually change about myself, or I should say, have changed....over time.
This might work for you? Maybe not? Worth a try? Hard to do when you're feeling down? That's ok too.
Cry a bit. Think a bit. Work on the old tapes....shutting them down, discarding them and making new ones.
It sounds simple and the concept is. The technique...takes time and effort and isn't always so easy...but it is often effective.
Mean time.......hope your fears ease....a little, if that is best.
And I really hope you will begin to tear out those old tapes and replace them with really good ones. I can just about guarantee that if you keep trying.....you'll do it and once done....you'll feel a whole lot better.
(((((((Plucky))))))))
I'll be away until Monday. Keep posting for the support you need and are worthy of. It won't go away.
GFN
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Quote:
My kids are starting to open up like little flowers.
Great! Wonderful! How is it showing? Want to talk about them?
They are acting out less and just seem more willing to share their thoughts around me and less wary of whether I will be impatient with it. And my 6 year old said that the song on the cd we were listening to must be helping me because I had not yelled at them in 2 weeks. I told him I was happy he was saying that and that I was trying harder not to lose my temper.
I called the T and left a message that my H had been cutting, in case he did not tell her.
Now I am trying to find a hiding place for the knives.
What a life.
Plucky
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Hi plucky, I hope that you feel that you’re taking good steps? It is very difficult. When you say ‘what a life’ how do you feel? I can’t hear you so I don’t know and I wondered. I’m thinking you could be:
angry (what did I do to deserve this life),
sad (crying because it is sad),
desperate (don’t know what to do but doing this at least),
resolute (what a life but I’ll manage),
determined (what a life but it’s what I’ve got),
shocked (I don’t believe this is happening, what a life),
stressed (I can’t handle this alone)
bitter (why do I have to live this life)
confused (what is happening to me and my life)
or even not sure what you feel (because you’re very busy doing things)
can’t think of any more right now. Whatever you feel, from that list or otherwise, it’s okay and it’s allowed, appropriate, human. All emotions are okay, they can’t be otherwise, they just are what they are. Understanding ‘why’ is the interesting and helpful part. P
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Hi Portia,
All of the above. Except for maybe bitter. Remember, I don't think I deserve better! Right now I just want to make through the next half day and then the next.
Whatever you feel, from that list or otherwise, it’s okay and it’s allowed, appropriate, human. All emotions are okay, they can’t be otherwise, they just are what they are.
Thank you for this reminder. I was feeling a bit wobbly and afraid that I didn't know what to do. I guess that is just part of feeling your way through something new.
My H went to the T and said it went ok and he was even going to go again! That is good, but when I told him he needed to make a commitment for several months at least he seemed surprised. That's odd considering we went to a marriage counselor before.
I am feeling as if I need to close up a bit and go back into survival mode in preparation for the visit from Mother, followed by an extended visit with the inlaws. At least this time the scales will have fallen from my eyes, to some extent.
bloodied, unbowed,and still somewhat
Plucky
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Plucky, if survival mode is what I think it is, I understand. (I wonder if you've been living all your life in survival mode? I think I have, seriously. I think I'm turning the corner now and it looks...easier. Not as serious.)
Good news about H and therapy. Please don't feel you have to be responsible in any way. Please let it be his thing. He has to take control himself?
I am so glad you said no to "bitter" :D that's a really tricky one, difficult to shift. All the rest are manageable i think! Bitterness eats away from the inside, self-destructive. Just my opinion.
When does mother visit? Hope you can stay with us. If not, we're still here, supporting you, casting our ears over your interactions with her, and listening to you, whispering "what an overgrown child!" in your ear. (Okay, not factually... but yes really, if you tell us, during or after.) You're not alone with whatever happens. Please believe that. I've found it to be true here. best Portia
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we're still here, supporting you, casting our ears over your interactions with her, and listening to you, whispering "what an overgrown child!" in your ear.
Thanks for a good laugh. I plan to stay on if I can get on the computer without someone looking over my shoulder. If not I will get up in the middle of the night.
Thank you for the support and for giving me the image that you are there supporting me even if I am not posting. It means a lot.
Plucky
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Hey, Plucky. Wanted you to know I'm thinking of you and sending some great moments of power and peace your way. I'm certain you will have made some great strides with this visit/challenge you are up against.
I have a great mentor who reminds me not to worry over my children's challenges, as they are learning much of the same stuff I am only now learning in middle age!!
So I can remind myself too, that amazing growth of spirit is usually preceded by (and sometimes only happens after) great struggle.
This is your time, Plucky. This is all about your learning what you need to in this life. Your husband (andeveryone) has the same opportunity to learn, and maybe he will. But you need only focus on this amazing miracle of what you are and will be. You sound so focused and resolved, and although you joke about being "not so" Plucky....I think you really are!
I used to ride a horse named "Moxie". She sure had Moxie! And you remind me of that, Ms Plucky!!!! (um not that you are a horse or anything...just a great spirit!)
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Hi Plucky,
I'm kinda late reading your thread. But, please add my voice of support and prayers for you.
Thinking of you,
Butterfly
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Neigh!
I'm still trotting on. Thanks for all the advice, prayers, and good wishes. I am glad to be part of this group. I have trusted you with my heart and you have not let me down. Thank you.
Plucky
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Hi, Plucky. I will be traveling beginning tomorrow, so my contact here will be "iffy". I will do my best to check in....but wanted you to know I will still be thinking of you.
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Neigh!
I'm still trotting on. Thanks for all the advice, prayers, and good wishes. I am glad to be part of this group. I have trusted you with my heart and you have not let me down. Thank you.
Plucky
On the subject of horses, this reminds me of a part of Gone with the Wind (which I just read last week). Mammy is talking about Scarlett (who has to be one of the great Ns of American literature), and says the following:
"You ain' nuthin' but a mule in hawse harness. You kin polish a mule's feets an' shine his hide an' put brass all over his harness an' hitch him ter a fine cah'ige. But he a mule jes' de same. He doan fool nobody. An' you is jes' de seme. You got silk dresses an' de mills an' de sto' an' de money, an' you give yo'seff airs lak a fine hawse, but you a mule jes' de same. An' you ain' foolin' nobody, needer."
When Scarlett tells this to Rhett, he laughs and says 'I have never heard a profound truth expressed so succinctly.'
So, Plucky, from one thoroughbred with a mule for a mother, to another, just remember Mammy talking about all the Ns we know, and take strength from her. :lol:
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I realised today that I feel like a single parent already. I can't really relax because I always have to plan, supervise, prepare, and be ready to pitch in and take over any time my H has the kids. And we are still married and living together!
They seem to feel insecure with him and keep running to me for attention when he is around. Not to give them anything, just hugs and sweet talk.
Maybe it will work to be a single parent! Maybe they won't suffer! Maybe it will be good for them when I feel less resentful! Maybe the sun will come up tomorrow....
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October I am so impressed you took the time to write all that out in dialect, no less! That's so funny!
Today my H was wearing shorts and short sleeves. I noticed cuts on his legs and arms. I realised with a jolt that I have been seeing these cuts for a long time. He always explained them away using yard work or some accident. When I see these symmetrical dried blood lines on his skin it just wierds me out no end. I want to throw up. My skin crawls. Maybe it's that fact that it seems so methodical. So habitual. So ill. Euuargh.
In a way I think he is relieved to have me know and start getting help. Good. I hope he continues.
I just had to get that out. God knows I can't tell anyone else.
The good news it that my mom decided not to come. All on her own, but of course she tried to pin it on me. I think she is having a hard time holding it together.
Are N's normally depressed? Because my mom goes through depressions. She has done so since I can remember. She thinks I don't know it. During those times she needs to be alone.
Cloppety cloppety clop....
Plucky
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Hi Plucky:
Glad to hear you won't have to deal with a mother visit. That's gotta be a relief eh? It must have been very difficult growing up with a mom who got depressed like that.
Something just popped out at me:
When I see these symmetrical dried blood lines on his skin it just wierds me out no end. I want to throw up. My skin crawls. Maybe it's that fact that it seems so methodical. So habitual. So ill. Euuargh.
I'm glad you can write this here and get it out in the open. Not nice stuff to have locked inside....all these creepy crawly feelings.
What struck me is that you've been seeing these cuts for a long time and accepted his explanations for them, as you say. Is it possible that you accepted those reasons because it was too tough to deal with the feelings that come with the truth of the matter? If so, this is a good thing because you are now being very plucky and "noticing" those cuts and experiencing your feelings about it! I think lot's of people would feel the way you do about it. It's hard to deal with. Good thing he's getting help now, at least.
This made me wonder if you H might have done the same thing with your stuff? I wonder if what happened to you produces creepy crawly or whatnot feelings for him, that he just hasn't been plucky enough to allow himself to feel? So, he denied what happened to you, wanted it brushed under the carpet, so to speak, to avoid feeling it? Just a thought.
Anyway, good for you for stepping ahead and allowing yourself to feel those yucky feelings about your husband's behaviour!
Hope you have a really good day today! :D :D
GFN
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Hi Plucky,
I have to admit I didn't read everything that has been written so if I repeat things that have already been said then I apologise in advance!
It was mostly the self-harm that I was responding about. I used to self -harm when I was younger and I have done it once or twice since being an adult when I have felt particuarly stressed. I thought it may help to have my point of view, incase it may help you understand what may be going on in your husbands head.
Okay, so firstly I used to harm myself when I couldn't cope with the emotions that were going on in my life at the time. It was as if everything had gotten to be too much and by hurting myself I could find some kind of release. I never told anyone and kept it very private. I also never did any real damage. All the cuts would be very superficial. It was more the act of doing it that gave the release that helped me. I never did it for attention as your husband seems to be doing sometimes. I also never used it as a bargaining tool as he also seems to do.
I have spoken to other people who have self-harmed and it seems that people fall roughly into three camps. The first are people like me who harm in times of stress and use it to release feelings they may have difficulty dealing with. The second are people who seem to hate themselves and use the harming to try and destroy in some sense what they hate. It seems to be this second group who are most in danger of doing serious damage to themselves. The third are people who may have both the previous reasons, but mostly self-harm for attention. Kind of a last-ditch attempt to grab your attention.
Obviously, my experiences are limited, and your husband may not be doing it for any of theses reasons. I just thought that maybe if you could see what may be going on in his head, it may help you to worry less. I think everything you are doing is right - getting him to admit he has a problem is a big step. Getting him to accept that it could be damaging to his children is another.
The biggest part of curing myself, was learning new techniques to deal with stress. When I was hurt or hurting I learned to talk to someone, or at the very least remove myself from places where I would be able to harm myself. IF your husband won't go to therapy, then maybe suggesting things like this may help?
Sorry, if I have been a rambling mess but I find that people have such a horror of self-harm that a little understanding may help them to deal with it.
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What struck me is that you've been seeing these cuts for a long time and accepted his explanations for them, as you say. Is it possible that you accepted those reasons because it was too tough to deal with the feelings that come with the truth of the matter?
Actually, if my husband had not come out and told me he was cutting, I would still be accepting his explanations (the tool slipped!) and I would still be saying, "be more careful!". I was so clueless. I'd only heard of cutting in passing along the lines of teenaged girls and Princess Diana. It never crossed my mind. Maybe that is better, because my husband had to own up and seek help rather than me being aware and trying to push him. BTW he is going to therapy now, has been once and plans to go again this week.
This made me wonder if you H might have done the same thing with your stuff? I wonder if what happened to you produces creepy crawly or whatnot feelings for him, that he just hasn't been plucky enough to allow himself to feel? So, he denied what happened to you, wanted it brushed under the carpet, so to speak, to avoid feeling it? Just a thought.
GFN, I think you are on to something there. I just don't know the reason. Whether there is something in his past? Whether he just doesn't have the skills to 'solve' it so he doesn't want to be frustrated? He once said he didn't want to know anything my nother had done, because he didn't want it to impact his opinion of and relationship with her. (What about his relationship with me?)
I think I would have welcomed him owning up to some problems, instead of pretending that he was from such a perfect family and I was the crazy one. We could have helped each other. Instead, we just hurt each other and became more and more distant.
Cadbury:Okay, so firstly I used to harm myself when I couldn't cope with the emotions that were going on in my life at the time. It was as if everything had gotten to be too much and by hurting myself I could find some kind of release. I never told anyone and kept it very private. I also never did any real damage. All the cuts would be very superficial. It was more the act of doing it that gave the release that helped me. I never did it for attention as your husband seems to be doing sometimes. I also never used it as a bargaining tool as he also seems to do.
First, Cadbury, thank you for sharing your experience. It is so helpful. You are so brave to reach out and offer this help. I am beginning to understand cutting somewhat.
Was there ever a time when cutting did not bring that release? When it was not enough? What did you do then?
I have spoken to other people who have self-harmed and it seems that people fall roughly into three camps. The first are people like me who harm in times of stress and use it to release feelings they may have difficulty dealing with. The second are people who seem to hate themselves and use the harming to try and destroy in some sense what they hate. It seems to be this second group who are most in danger of doing serious damage to themselves. The third are people who may have both the previous reasons, but mostly self-harm for attention. Kind of a last-ditch attempt to grab your attention.
All of these reasons are plausible when it comes to my H. I do think he hates himself, at the same time he holds himself in high regard. He cannot express his feelings. He can't even admit he has any feelings, much less deal with them.
I just thought that maybe if you could see what may be going on in his head, it may help you to worry less.
Thank you for thinking about my feelings and extending yourself to address them. Thank you Cadbury! That makes me feel so good! And you are correct. I am trying to understand so I know what the risk is. Is he going to really hurt himself or us? It sounds like maybe that is not a risk.
The biggest part of curing myself, was learning new techniques to deal with stress. When I was hurt or hurting I learned to talk to someone, or at the very least remove myself from places where I would be able to harm myself.
Maybe this is why he is so resistant to us leaving, even though it is stressful and I don't see that he loves me or enjoys the kids al that much. Maybe it is self-preservation.
Sorry, if I have been a rambling mess but I find that people have such a horror of self-harm that a little understanding may help them to deal with it.
Far from it, your post is very useful and chock full of good info. And you are right about my horror. That must be a hard thing to deal with also, knowing that the thing you do to help you cope is difficult for others to understand or even know about. You seem to have done well dealing with it. I will have to overcome my discomfort.
I just keep on learning new things up here. Me, who knew everthing already!
Still basically
Plucky
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Hi Plucky,
I'm glad my post helped you a little.
I was quite fortunate in that harming myself always released the pent up feelings, so I never felt the urge to do anything more. I don't know how it works for individual cases. I don't, for example, know how it may affect people who do it as an expression of self-hate.
What I did learn when I was trying to stop is that finding someone to talk to really helped me. I also found that I needed it to be someone more distant than my close family and friends. That's why therapy may help your husband. He has made a big step in admitting he does it - that at least allows you to address it.
I don't have any more advice for your particular case - I just hope it goes okay for you. Above all remember that you need to think about yourself and your children above him. Whatever he threatens to do. He may start to threaten all kinds of things, but if you don't change your stance you may well discover that it is all just threats. Good luck, I hope it goes okay for you. Also, if you are worried, then get professional help. Although I have shared my experiences with you, your husband may be entirely different.
Take care,
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I was so clueless. I'd only heard of cutting in passing along the lines of teenaged girls and Princess Diana. It never crossed my mind. Maybe that is better, because my husband had to own up and seek help rather than me being aware and trying to push him.
I think that's probably very true (that you didn't know about it...believed him) and that he had to take the step himself to face up to it. It kind of insulated you from his behaviour and took away any obligation you might have felt to try to help him (which probably wouldn't have worked anyway, until he decided to face up eh?). I'm glad he's in T now.
GFN, I think you are on to something there. I just don't know the reason. Whether there is something in his past? Whether he just doesn't have the skills to 'solve' it so he doesn't want to be frustrated?
Maybe some day he'll tell you the reason (if he knows it or finds out what it is).
He once said he didn't want to know anything my nother had done, because he didn't want it to impact his opinion of and relationship with her. (What about his relationship with me?)
Ya. That must have hurt. He seems to really want things to be out of sight/out of mind...sort of. It must have been hard for you to have to either keep quiet or pretend stuff.
And it must have been really difficult to be labelled "the crazy one". Sorry you had to deal with all that Plucky. :(
We could have helped each other. Instead, we just hurt each other and became more and more distant.
That is so sad, isn't it?
Hope you're still Plucky!
Sela/GFN
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Hi Plucky,
Just read this post tonight. I introduced myself to you in the 'friends' thread.
I'm really sorry to hear of all the stress you have been dealing with. It sounds like you are facing the truth and have the strength needed to move forward in a healthy direction for you and your children. Codependency is a cunning and baffing disease. I can be caught off guard by the intensity of my own denial. I hope you are getting the help you need to face your challenges.
My N Mom tried to commit suicide when her husband was getting ready to leave her. He stayed and took on the blame for her attempt. It was at that point in his life that I watched him forfeit his sanity, enter into her insanity and become a captive of hopeless, insane codependency. I felt sad as I watched him leave truth behind. He prompty stabbed me in the back and I barely talked to him after that. Now we are completely detatched. Baffling, scary and incredibly sad.
People just don't grow until they are given the dignity to experience the consequences of their own choices. Sometimes the consequences are beautiful, sometimes they are painful beyond compare. I'm sorry your H is ill. I pray you and your children have a wonderful day tomorrow. :)
Take care,
chutzbagirl
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Cadbury:
Okay, so firstly I used to harm myself when I couldn't cope with the emotions that were going on in my life at the time. It was as if everything had gotten to be too much and by hurting myself I could find some kind of release. I never told anyone and kept it very private. I also never did any real damage. All the cuts would be very superficial. It was more the act of doing it that gave the release that helped me. I never did it for attention as your husband seems to be doing sometimes. I also never used it as a bargaining tool as he also seems to do.
First, Cadbury, thank you for sharing your experience. It is so helpful. You are so brave to reach out and offer this help. I am beginning to understand cutting somewhat.
Was there ever a time when cutting did not bring that release? When it was not enough? What did you do then?
Hello Plucky,
I used to do self-harm years ago too. It was all done in secret so no one would know what I was doing. This is gross but true, I used to collect my scabs. The reason is they represented the pain I felt that no one could hear or understand. This was all very private. Self-harm brought me release until the day I decided I wanted to stop doing it and find a healthier way to deal with my pain. I got away from the source of my greatest pain, my husband and step-son. Then I started to really buckle down and address my issues without all the distractions of other people's crap. I discovered a new way to express my pain which did not involve self-harm.
What your husband is doing looks like manipulation and coercion: using this behavior to make you stop what you're doing.
I've lived with someone just like that, my H. He used needles and would leave them around and even talk about what he did. He finally got help and is doing better. We still live separately but hope to live together some day. He's still in therapy and still working on his issues from childhood. We even discuss things now without me being the crazy one and him the "perfect man who can't do anything wrong." He has confessed and admitted his wrong doing and asked for my forgiveness.
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Thank you Chutz and Sally. I know it is not easy to expose yourself, I feel like I'm peeling off skin when I do it! but it is helpful to me. Thank you.
My H seems to be much better since he started T. He has been nicer and less angry with me and the kids. Our long visit with the inlaws was even helpful, despite being stressful, because, thanks to you all up here, I am a bit more insightful about what is going on, and could make comments about that to my husband. He did not immediately agree but I think by the end of the month he was starting to see it.
One good thing was that my father in-law showed many N traits. It was good because I could see so clearly now what my H's experience growing up must have included. He was the whipping post and his sister, now a flaming N, was the favorite. The bad news is that my FIL has now latched onto my 7 year old son as his next victim. My son was even afraid of him. I had to stay awake all the time (one of the kids was awake practically around the clock due to jet lag) to protect him. I did not do a perfect job, I felt I had to trod a fine line and maybe I did not protect him aggressively enough. By mid-visit he was afraid of his grandpa. I had to step it up. By the end things seemed ok. I told my H that our son was afraid of his father. At first he poo-pooed it but I think he agreed by the end. Strangely, my FIL seems afraid of me or something. When I hear something going on in the next room that is questionable, and stride into the room, he kind of shrinks back. Are Ns cowards? Well, I guess all bullies are.
Plucky