Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: longtire on July 16, 2005, 09:28:40 PM
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I feel really alone with trying to decide whether/when to divorce my wife and would like some "company" here. I would be grateful for your discussion, experience, questions, book recommendations, "sitting shiva" or prayers and good thoughts. I am in one of those uncomfortable "in between" times. I know it will pass and I will figure out what I need to do, but it is hard for me to hold on amidst the loneliness in the middle. I think of this place and people here first when I need emotional support. I really need to vent this all out instead of keeping it inside. And I need a safe place with safe people to do it.
I believe that my wife has Borderline PD and cannot tolerate either intimacy or abandonment, so bounces between the two berating me all along for not meeting her needs the whole time. I have been separated from my wife for 2-1/2 blessed months now. Every single day gets better. I have peace. I love life. I feel connected to myself and other people. I am very grateful to be where I am and to have done the work I needed to in order to get to this point. I am a recovering co-dependent, so moving back out on my own again was not an easy step for me. I had fallen a long way from my old, independent, bold self. I had to deal with my own fears and issues around intimacy, abandonment, lonliness, and worthiness for good things in order to leave. I was bouncing back and forth like a ping pong ball at an Olympic match before that. :shock:
During this time, I discovered a relationship with God that I didn't know I had. I had rejected God many years ago when he didn't seem to be doing anything in this marriage. I had gone to church growing up, but never had much place for God in my life. It was a case of Him coming to find me this time, not the other way around. Looking for God was the last thing on my mind. Nevertheless, having this in my life has been a big help in giving me a feeling of acceptance and safety in taking the steps I have. I don't feel ALL alone anymore, but still want and need people in my life. I believe that it is a blessing from God that I have the house that I'm living in today. The answers to my prayers came in words to "move on" and "leave, go forth." I got this house that had been on the market 75 days, when all other houses were snapped up in less than 3 days on the market. The random realtor that I got by dialing the realtor's office main number had divorced a year ago and we talked for an hour after seeing this house. I really feel like this was a "God thing" and that I'm where I'm supposed to be. Don't take any of this that I think I'm holy or anything, far from it. I'm feeling my way around all of this new territory.
After reading several books on verbal abuse and BPD, I was able to see that there isn't anything to this relationship and never has been. The person I thought I was marrying didn't exist. It was all lies on her part to "keep me," her words. That stopped right after we got married. the real her came out. I tried to appease her, but things just got worse and worse. I made myself depressed running from the awareness that I had been tricked and used. I got therapy and ADs and got out of that, but the awareness came back. I "only" made myself numb that time. The awareness came back. I was no longer willing to be either depressed or numb or to do anything else to hurt myself to avoid it. I got angry. Full of rage. :x I started reacting to my wife with screaming, swearing, name-calling and verbal abuse of my own. It scared the crap out of me because is NOT how I want to act. I felt completely out of control when it happened and I didn't know what else I might do. I felt like *I* had disappeared.
I decided I had to do WHATEVER it took to stop that and get my life back. Not depression, not numbness or anything else like that because IT DOESN'T WORK! In fact, those things had made it worse. My appeasement had made it worse. I started reading and surfing the internet looking for explanations, looking for understanding. I was ashamed that I had let her treat me and use me this way. I was ashamed that I didn't stand up for myself and leave. I was ashamed that I was ashamed that she fooled me. I wasn't ready to talk to anyone yet.
My wife had what should have been a disspointing discussion with her mother that turned into a potential estrangement. I and my daughter told her we would support whatever she decided to do and did our best to help her through this time. It hit me later, she was far, far more upset about a tiff with her mother than she had ever been about the shitty marriage we had. After a sleepless night I finally realized that no matter what I did, it made NO difference. My wife chose to have our relationship this way. I couldn't even force her to change, let alone wait around until she decided to. I asked her for a divorce. After 16 years of refusing to go get help (I had offered many, many times) she suggested a marriage weekend. I agreed because I wanted to be able to tell my daughter that I had tried EVERYTHING. One of the guided imageries was to picture your partner as a wounded child and my wife actually cried because she had seen me as a human being for the first time. I had always told myself that if she could just see me as a human being she would no longer be able to treat me the way she was. We went through about 9 months of couples therapy, but that only made things worse as she was still saying all the right things in therapy and completely denying her behavior outside of therapy (a BPD symptom). One day I woke up to find a note saying she was not going to joint counseling any longer but wanted to keep going on her own. She refused to talk about anything related to our relationship and just wanted to have "fun" and chit chat about how our day went.
During this time, I was seeing my own therapist and working through a lot of issues that I noted above. The big one for me was fear of abandonment. To the point where I had panic attacks every time I tried to leave. I was literally unable to leave until I dealt with those issues. I was true to my word and not being depressed or numb. Unfortunately, the awareness of this situation kept me from sleeping. After several weeks of sleep deprivation and deepening desparation, I got a new therapist and some sleeping pills. This helped me to take the final step and move out. I could no longer physically stay in that situation. The results are amazing. I'm feeling like myself. I like myself. I am relearning what I like and don't like. My old therapist told me that when I was done life would be "sweet. Sweeter than it is for people who don't do this work." It hadn't happened until recently. Now, I finally *know* what he meant. Life is good. Life is sweet.
I don't love my wife anymore. Not even a little bit. I don't hate her anymore (thanks to a lot of forgiveness work), but I pity her. She truly didn't ask to be this way, it isn't her fault. However, she hasn't been willing to even acknowledge it, let alone do the work to stop her abusive behavior. I guess now I'm indifferent to her for the most part. She called to ask about buying something for our daughter today and sounded normal. I had to retrace my steps and remind myself that I was getting the facade, not the reality. It didn't take any time for me to get back to reality. It's where I live now. Goodbye OZ, hello Kansas!
Even if she completely admitted the way she is and started working on it today, I think it would take her 5-10 years to get to the point where she would really be able to have a true, mutual, intimate relationship. I have not heard or seen that she has made that commitment. I haven't hearn much at all. I asked her to only EMail unless there was a time pressure, like this morning. Not having to face her crazymaking statements and struggle not to react is a joy.
In short (ha ha!) I don't even like my wife and don't want to have anything to do with her. She would HAVE to be pretty much cured of her issues before there would even be anything to talk about. I don't want to wait around. I'm sick and tired of being around her and trying to keep things sane. I want a chance in my life to find someone who I want to share my life with. Even though one of the inseparable ironies of this is that I am now aware that I don't NEED anyone with me to be OK. I don't want to have to worry about whether my wife is going to raid the money or do something destructively spiteful to punish me for not meeting all her needs. For the first several weeks in this house my heart would race and my adrenaline would shoot sky high when I heard a creak or a groan. My immediate thought was that my wife was back and fight or flight would kick in. I believe I have some low-level Complex PTSD from this as well. I literally cannot be around her anymore. Maybe all these things could change, but I'm not willing to put any effort into changing them.
So why don't I just get a divorce right now? I'm moving closer to it, but there are a couple of things that have been holding me back. One is that I want to take care of my daughter and afraid of hurting her even more with the divorce. I see as I write this that is my co-dependent nature kicking in. I will be much better able to help my daughter by taking care of myself first in this situation. Trying to take care of someone else, even my daughter, would leave me drained again. I can't do that. I won't do that anymore.
The big reason I'm in the middle right now is trying to figure out whether it is OK with God that I divorce my wife. Please, don't tell me not to worry about it or anything like that. If I could have done that, I probably would have by now. Whether you believe in God or not doesn't matter. I do, and it isnt't something I can ignore or pretend otherwise. And after my experiences, I wouldn't do that anyway. I realize that the conventional wisdom is that the bible says that you can only get divorced for infidelity and even then should not remarry, but try to reconcile. There are others who believe that this has been taken out of context of the times and that abandonment phsyically or emotionally qualifies as well. I bounce back and forth between these, so I know my mind is not made up yet. :? Certainly, my wife has not lived up to her vows, and I don't believe that she ever intended too. I believe that she thought she had me forever because I couldn't leave. I expected to feel one of two ways after moving out: either more miserable for being alone and carrying all my problems which really did cause all the problems in our marriage, or I would feel better every day, lighter and joyful.
I don't love my wife. I'm not willing to do any work on our relationship any longer. I am committed to working on my own issues and continuing to grow. I am committed to taking care of my daughter. I'm not willing to take ANY chances with my wife. I resent financially supporting my wife after all this. I want to get a divorce and be done with it!
What holds me back? I'm afraid deep down that I really am the cause of all the problems and that I haven't tried everything because I haven't tried living with my wife with all my issues resolved so I can tolerate her behavior. Maybe she would come around?!? I don't think so. Besides, I CANNOT be around her. Maybe I could at some point the future, but not for years at least. That is no longer an option. I feel ashamed that I wasn't able to save the marriage. I failed. I didn't realize it until my finger just now started typing it. I feel unworthy and ineffective, but I also recognize those as coming from my childhood. Shame and fear are not reasons to prolong this relationship. I did fail. I also failed to pick a safe person to marry due to my family issues, youthful ignorance, and her facility with deception. That is certainly not a reason to continue to suffer. I have issues and so does she. It makes no sense to work through all my issues so I can throw my life away tolerating hers. She shares as much responsibility for this marriage failing as I do. I think I just got that. Yes, I know she caused many of the problems due to her issues, but it didn't hit me that she is really responsible for this divorce as well. (co-dep again on my part :evil:) She has had, Oh my God!, thousands of opportunities over the years and all she had to do was reach out. She didn't. *I* have not failed in this marriage, *we* have. I have continued to grow and I hope she does as well. For so many years, it has been just me trying. It no longer even feels like there is an "us." I am feeling sad now. :( I don't think that I had grieved this part yet.
Thanks for reading all this. I didn't expect to write so much, you'd think I was used to it by now. I guess I just have to go through a lot of stuff to get to the bottom of things. Thanks for being there.
P.S. This was too long even for me to proofread. Sorry for any typos.
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{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{longtire}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}} Big hugs.
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Long, I'm sorry ..........BIG BIG HUGS
I don't know if you remember my dream about the brick wall and the sadness I had felt about 2-3 months after I left my H.
I went out on the balcony today funny thing I was thinking about this same dream wondered what was it why the brick wall, I was looking all around trying to figure it out was there more ?
I looked up and down saw the nice grass the pool, it just didn't make sence to me.
I stood there looking thinking and turned to the east and there it was, today I see in the distance a neighborhood church with this huge cross standing high over the condos and directly in my view.
I called my D and asked her had she ever noticed this cross in our view before??? We both thought it was cool and felt it was a special sign. No doubt it's been there all along but today for some reason I noticed it.
You know being in approval seeking mode you have pain inside when your not making others happy.
Press pass the pain you feel. You want to keep working on your relationship out of duty or loyalty to keep doing what's right? Keep healing for now in 6mos ask yourself agian how you think going back to your life could work and be happy for all involved. Your wife may change and see things different too.
You start to forget the pain you were in because you numbed your self through most of it.
The numbing is starting to go away, your left now with the real pain and having to face it.
You can't hide it with trying to make those around you feel better, it's only you.
You are not used to making your own life better for you.
The caos your used to had an addiction quaility, going back to this life without knowing how to protect yourself from the same would allow you to fall prey again all too easily.
The pain is a healing not a sign to retreat or think your not doing the right thing.
God does not want the family to fall apart.
You need two ADULTS to make it work both must be yoked the same and both doing the will of GOD.
Do you believe your wife did all she could do or if you went back to her, she could change that much to make this relationship any differnent?
I think you are doing a great, you didn't fail this is your co-denpendcy talking,
You did a brave thing in leaving a bad relationship. Your daughter will respect you for doing a difficult thing. Changing the way things were going was the only sane thing to do.
Take care ..............OR
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Long,
Hun, It is time to start living life the way it was intended to be lived. Do me a favor. Look at the lyrics for "I'm moving on." by Raskal Flatts. It speaks volumes!
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Oh hell, this one's on me...LOL!!
I’m Movin’ On
(Phillip White/Vincent Williams)
I've dealt with my ghosts and faced all my demons
Finally content with a past I regret
I’ve found you find strength in your moments of weakness
For once I’m at peace with myself
I’ve been burdened with blame, trapped in the past for too long
I’m movin’ on
I’ve lived in this place and I know all the faces
Each one is different but they’re always the same
They mean no harm but it’s time that I face it
They’ll never allow me to change
But I never dreamed home would end up where I don’t belong
I’m movin’ on
I’m movin’ on
At last I can see life has been patiently waiting for me
And I know there’s no guarentee’s, but I’m not alone
There comes a time in everyone’s life
When all you can see are the years passing by
And I have made up my mind that those days are gone
I sold what I could and packed what I couldn’t
Stopped to fill up on my way out of town
I’ve loved like I should but lived like
I shouldn’t
I had to lose everything to find out
Maybe forgiveness will find me somewhere down this road
I’m movin’ on
I’m movin’ on
I’m movin’ on
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Hey long, this is so weird. I just posted something to Sela/GFN, that I think speaks even more to you. Talk about God stuff. Anyway, I don't want to repeat m'self, that seems kind of ego-y, so here's a link to save you the trouble of looking for it.
http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3/index.php?topic=1690.msg26580#msg26580
It's Reply #12. Hope it helps.
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longtire,
You are the most honest, introspective person. You sure don't need to worry about the unexamined life! My immediate thought is the inability to divorce (considering that it's the obvious choice and no one, even Jesus, would blame you) is similar to the previous ambivalence about separation. And it may have to do with some internal parts of yourself who are younger. Just a thought.
take care and thanks for sharing,
bunny
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longtire,
I just finished reading a book "Too Soon Old, Too Late Smart" --Thirty True Things You Need to Know, by Gordon Livingston, MD. It is a short, easy read, but really hit home with me. He talks a lot about being happy with your life and what it takes to attain that.
I truly understand the lonliness and sadness of the breakup of the family. I don't miss my ex anymore, but I do miss our time together as a family and the fun we had. Be kind to yourself. You are still grieving. Do you have a pastor you could talk to about your religious concerns regarding the divorce? My therapist is a pastor and he certainly believes that there are marriages that should not stay together and the children are better off with the parents divorced.
Hugs and blessings,
Brigid
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Hi LongTire...I read your post last night and now it is the next day. What you describe so well is virtually the same experience I have been having for nearly 23 years and another two years in divorce court. I hesitate to respond to you since I worry that it will sound anxious and negative. But if I don't respond, then I won't give you the potential of additional information that may help you decide what to do.
First, by leaving and working on yourself, you have done what I wished I had done. I left in fear and only taking the clothes on my back plus the clean laundry on top of the dryer :). Then I filed for divorce almost immediately with help from my Therapist. Unfortunately, because of the length of my marriage the finances were almost totally under the control of my husband who was spending them at a break-neck speed and bankruptcy was a possibility. Filing for divorce would place accountabilty of where the money was going. Or so I thought.
Secondly, I found that once I had filed, while there may be a paper trail of the money, it doesn't mean that it won't kept being spent. And not by me! I still have only one tank of gas a month ifor my car in my budget.
Thirdly, once you enter the judicial system, because of the laws, the marriage is only seen in terms of custody and money. The courts can't adjudicate the amount of emotional, verbal, or possibly physical abuse unless it is witnessed by a third party or injuries. The courts do not like to have the children of the marriage testify on behalf of either parent unless a gross crime occurred. Fortunately, my children are all over 18 years of age and my special blessing is that they are entirely supportive of me. So there are no custody issues.
Finally, I think you have done absolutely the right thing to just distance yourself for however long it takes to remember who you were and are now and become strong in that knowledge. Probably, divorce is inevitable and the stronger the faith you have in yourself will help you immensely in dealing with the legal system which cannot deal with the nuances of the divorce....only the money and custody issues.
I sincerely hope this is of help to you and not another negative in your life. I know that I did the best I could with what I knew at the moment and I still have my pride. If or when you decide to file for divorce, please ask your attorney to explain to you fully the possible scenarios that may happen when a Judge is asked to determine your future. And I don't mean money in the sense that "you will get it all". I mean money in the sense that your wife may damage your credit rating or in some other way place you in a position where for years to come you have to bail her out financially or have to have continuing litigation to decide who owes what. I hope this is of some assistance to you. You sound like a very, very nice person and I don't want to dump a lot of negative what-ifs in your life. I truly think the time you have spent reflecting has been invaluable to you. And I have to add the disclaimer that I am not an attorney and have had no legal training and I am only speaking of my personal experiences.
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Hi long
Your did not know of your wife's condition when you married her so you could not make a proper commitment, having all of the facts at that time. Annulled in God's eyes I would say.
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Thank you ITexperiment, OR, Jaded911, Stormchild, bunny, Brigid, dogbit, and Mati for posting. Thank you and everyone else for reading and for your positive thoughts and prayers. It really means a lot to me to reach out and have other respond, I really get choked up about it still.
I do recognize that this pain is coming up because I am not moving through it. I gave up depression and numbness a while ago. Now I'm actively pushing through it. Look what happened last time I did! I moved out and life became beautiful. I can understand why I didn't work through this stuff before. It sucks! But I know that there is a beautiful rainbow on the other side. My inner family trusts me now and there is no grumbling, just pressure to reach out and get enough support from others. :)
- Jaded, thanks for the lyrics. They express that feeling of "in between" perfectly for me.
- Stormchild, your other post fit as well. I feel very grateful to have moved beyond blame and rage. Now I feel sorry for my wife, while still holding her accountable for her behavior. She didn't choose to be treated the way she was as a kid, but she hasn't chosen to behave differently. Scary to change, yes, but still fully her decision.
- bunny, I have to keep reminding myself that I am not behaving without examination. That is the force that keeps me moving. I'm not where *I* want to be yet. One of the other bumps here for me is the fear that if I get a divorce I will be acting out, JUST LIKE MY WIFE HAS TO ME ALL THESE YEARS. I will be sinking to her level. Well, even if that is all true, I need to stop thinking I'm any better than her and accept my faults along with my positive traits. After all, if I can forgive her, surely I can forgive myself. (Actually, that latter seems harder than the first, which was no cakewalk!)
- Brigid, I added the book to my wishlist and will get read it when I whittle down my reading list a bit. The reviews sound like something I could use. I realized again today that things are so much better, I was settling for the lack of pain. But I want to keep going until my life is FILLED with joy. I saw it in someone today at church and realized that things can get so much better than they are today, and I want that. And things are not bad today. Now there is something to work for and look forward to!
- dogbit, thank you for your heartfelt reply. It sounds like you did the absolute best you could in leaving at the time. Don't think less of yourself for taking such a difficult and painful step less than absolutely perfectly. You are out and I believe that things will work out for you in the end. You have the ability to stick to it and make sure that they do. I didn't take you post negatively at all. In fact, it reminded me that one of the great blessings in my life is that I am very good at taking care of financial aspects. Heck, I took care of my wife against her will and we never went bankrupt despite her efforts. :) I plan to transfer the money more under my control before starting the divorce to make sure that all the bills get paid on time. I have already either cancelled or stopped (no new charges) on the joint credit cards. Of course, we are still jointly liable for each other's "personal" cards until the divorce decree. I just hope that if she runs up charges they can be compensated out of the final settlement.
- Mati, I appreciate your post. I am a little hesitant to use ignorance as an excuse, since I think that applies to the overwhelmingly vast majority of marriages. :? However, had I known she was using me and deceiving me and had no intention of really following through on her vows and growing into them, then I agree with you. It has not been a mutual realtionship at any point along the way. It's become really clear to me over the last few days that not only am I no longer willing to do her work in this relationship, I am no longer willing to do my part either. It isn't like I'm furious and want to punish her, I just don't care to have this in my life anymore. I want real relationships with people who can relate back that are positive and make my life better. I won't tolerate relationships that make my life worse anymore. I guess I'm growing up in that area.
I can't say that I'm ready to make the decision and take action yet, but I don't feel distressed any longer. I trust that I will see the answer that is already inside me when I have grown enough. I have been praying about it and I certainly don't feel any negatives coming from God. I can see now that I was projecting a lot onto that rather than dealing with the real underlying issues. One more step, and the first one is the hardest. God bless you all.
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honestly longtire, I feel we give unwittingly a gift to our children when we cry cease! to a relationship which isn't working.
Maybe not at the time, but years later, if they find themselves making mistakes and being unhappy.
Who wants to teach their child they have to put up with unhappiness just to keep the peace or prevent anything 'ugly'.
I believe I've taught my son that life isn't perfect, mistakes get made, but they're not irredeemable...and that he doesn't have to try to be perfect, just live the best life he can, AS A HUMAN.
My father is BPD and it's an impossible situation to live with, you just have to walk away trying hard to be forgiving both to them and yourself.
I think you're doing really well to work through all this.
Take care.
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longtire
I am a little hesitant to use ignorance as an excuse, since I think that applies to the overwhelmingly vast majority of marriages. However, had I known she was using me and deceiving me and had no intention of really following through on her vows and growing into them, then I agree with you.
I agree that it is true that no-one knows the person they marry properly right at the start, but when someone has a personality disorder or mental illness then they are incapable of making a relationship work whatever their partners do. I don't think that the PD'ed always know that they are deceiving etc. They just know what they want and how to get it. Right from the start there is a tragic flaw and when it comes to light later, then I do think that God does not hold us to our vow when we could not know that we had made a commitment to something that was unfeasible due to unawareness of the full facts.. I have made two mistakes like this the first one was a compulsive gambler and the second an n. I believe that God has released me from both mistakes as my head was messed up through my childhood anyway which led me to make the mistakes. The second time I did not leave the marriage because I had not seen how bad it was and it was my nH who ended it for his own convenience. But during the marriage when I was extremely unhappy, I felt that God had said to me that I couod leave it if I wanted but it was His will for me to stay because He could sanctify me through my suffering. In fact he did so.
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long,
Of course, we are still jointly liable for each other's "personal" cards until the divorce decree. I just hope that if she runs up charges they can be compensated out of the final settlement.
Just as a piece of advice on this statement--I sold our family home a year ago. All outstanding debts (of which my xh had plenty) were paid at that time, and from that point forward, our attorneys agreed that any further debt incurred by either party was their own and could not be obligated to the other party involved. Our divorce was not finalized for another 10 months.
You might want to speak with an attorney before you make any changes to your financial arrangement to make sure you are doing something in your best interest. You might also be able to get something in writing to protect your assets and limit her spending prior to the divorce being final. If you don't already have an attorney, I would spend some time now interviewing them and finding someone you trust and work well with, before anything critical happens. I know you are not fully to the point of seeking the divorce, but these are good things to think about and prepare for as you begin to move forward.
One of the 30 things you need to know now from the book I recommended above is "Happiness is the ultimate risk." All of us who are starting our lives over in mid-life are wondering if we will ever find that elusive happy place. It sounds like you are starting to take the risk and reap the rewards. Keep up the good work.
Blessings,
Brigid
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Dear (((((((Longtire)))))):
The positive thing I notice is that you really think things through before acting. That is so admirable. You aren't making a snap decision about divorce. Good. Divorce is serious stuff and it's ok to weigh your option, consider the consequences, and make a clear, sound decision.
What are your options?
1. You can remain separated and go on to build a new life. Whether you're divorced or not will effect you financially for the most part, right? That could be rectified with a sepasration agreement (an agreement sorting out financial obligations, dispersement of assets, and often...custody/financial support of children), if you decide you aren't ready to divorce.
2. You can decide that you want to divorce ASAP and get to the "end of it". It will then be over and there will be closure. I think you are wise to sort out your feelings in regard to it all first and to take as much time as you need before doing this. That way you will know in your heart that you made a careful decision.
3. You can reconcile with your wife and go back to a painful situation (I bet this one is not really on your present list of options :D).
The big reason I'm in the middle right now is trying to figure out whether it is OK with God that I divorce my wife.
If it isn't ok, there are a whole, big, huge, massive, giant, large group of us divorced people who are going straight to hell!!! :shock:
Do you believe in a God who would condemn you for wanting to end a loveless, painful, emotionally draining, financially draining, hopeless relationship?
Do you believe that if you become whole and feel healed, that your wife will be healed too? Must not she work on herself for this to happen and for the marriage to work?
I bet you meant your vows when you made them? You say your wife "did not live up to" her vows so this makes me wonder if this will be ok with God? Is it ok for her not to live up to her vows? Are you required to keep vows with someone who is not?
Just me asking some questions ...no need to answer them here unless you want to.
Sela
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I have to keep reminding myself that I am not behaving without examination. That is the force that keeps me moving. I'm not where *I* want to be yet. One of the other bumps here for me is the fear that if I get a divorce I will be acting out, JUST LIKE MY WIFE HAS TO ME ALL THESE YEARS. I will be sinking to her level. Well, even if that is all true, I need to stop thinking I'm any better than her and accept my faults along with my positive traits. After all, if I can forgive her, surely I can forgive myself. (Actually, that latter seems harder than the first, which was no cakewalk!)
Longtire,
You have even more of my admiration for your thoughtful approach to this final leap. However, I think you may need to remind yourself, over and over again, that you are not "acting out" by choosing to move on wtih your life.
One thing you may want to think about: Aren't you living in emotional divorce now? How could you be supportive of / useful to your wife if you stayed married to her in name only? I know there will be financial ramifications to legal divorce, but I'm sure the courts will consider those. My point is simply that the marriage already seems to be over for you, and so I'm not sure that staying in it out of fear or guilt masquerading as moral uncertainty is (a) good for you; (b) emotionally honest (which you have tried so hard, and so successfully, to be); or (c) a really honorable way to behave toward your wife. I include the last only because you wondered in your original post whether it was "OK with God" to divorce your wife. I don't know. I do believe, however, that it is not "OK with God" if we behave less honestly and honorably than we know how towards those who are, or were, supremely important in our lives. Maybe they won't understand it; that's their problem. Our responsibility, I think, is to behave according to the knowledge we have worked so hard to gain.
So in my opinion, I think you owe your wife more than staying in a loveless, lifeless marriage that you cannot bring yourself to inhabit physically, let alone spiritually. You owe her the honesty of saying that your feeling for her has changed to the point where it is no longer the love of a husband for a wife. You owe her the same chance you want for yourself--the chance to find another, more suitable partner with whom to share your life. In my opinion, the fact that she may not appreciate your gifts of honesty, opportunity, charity, and forebearance are no reason not to give them. Your concern is with your behavior, with how you feel when you look in the bathroom mirror.
I do believe in God, though I've strayed a long way from my Catholic upbringing. I've struggled very long and very hard with my relationship with my mother, who is a champion N. Her other children are either completely incompetent or have, out of self-preservation, put enormous distance between themselves and her. So I'm left holding the bag. How much do I owe her? How much of myself should I sacrifice in order to do what I perceive as my duty? After a long quest, involving many books, a few psychologists, and more than one confessor, I have to say that my final answer is this: I have a duty to see that she is OK--and by that I mean safe, adequately provided for, set up with good medical care, etc. I do not have a duty to see that she is happy--that her social and emotional needs are filled. Not only is that an impossible and thankless task, it is the point at which I would sacrifice my self to hers. No one has the right to ask you to give up your self. Even Christ had a hard time doing that. The only will to which we must be subservient is God's. If someone else asks you to deny your self for their happiness or comfort, aren't they assuming a role in your life that belongs only to God? The usurpation of self is therefore--to me at least--the critical point at which the balance of a relationship tips. In seeking to take away one's self, the other commits the sin of pride--placing the self above all, including God.
I only mention this because this is the struggle I have tried to play out in an ethical/religious context, and this is the resting place I have reached. Perhaps I'm just arguing in circles, and if so, please ignore everything I've said. These are extremely difficult questions, and so I would not presume to offer anything except my experience. If nothing else, it can serve as an example of how not to think about these issues.
peace,
daylily
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longtire,
Daylily said:
One thing you may want to think about: Aren't you living in emotional divorce now? How could you be supportive of / useful to your wife if you stayed married to her in name only? I know there will be financial ramifications to legal divorce, but I'm sure the courts will consider those. My point is simply that the marriage already seems to be over for you, and so I'm not sure that staying in it out of fear or guilt masquerading as moral uncertainty is (a) good for you; (b) emotionally honest (which you have tried so hard, and so successfully, to be); or (c) a really honorable way to behave toward your wife. I include the last only because you wondered in your original post whether it was "OK with God" to divorce your wife. I don't know. I do believe, however, that it is not "OK with God" if we behave less honestly and honorably than we know how towards those who are, or were, supremely important in our lives.
This is beautifully said (as you always manage to do, daylily) and I agree with every word.
Brigid
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Wow, great replies that really get me thinking! Thanks all! :) I thought about these replies most of the day and it brought up some good stuff for me.
write, I think my daughter already sees the need to end relationships more clearly than I do. She has ended a couple of unhealthy relationships in the last couple of years after trying to work things out when she saw that she would not be treated well no matter what she did. I hope to live up to her example. :) I also hope to show her that I can behave well in ending this without anger or hatred toward her mother.
Mati, glad to see you posting more again. If my wife had been honest about how she would behave when I first knew her, I never would have married her or even continued to see her. Of course in this case, the dishonesty and denial IS the problem itself. This is not an issue where we can work together to find common ground and work out a compromise. That IS the problem in itself. We couldn't ever find common ground because she was too busy dumping on me to keep from feeling so bad herself. It was certainly a mistake to get married. Myabe if I were a saint, I could stay, but I'm not a saint, and I'm glad for it in this case. By the way, what do you mean about being sanctified by your suffering? I have heard this before in passing, but don't know what it means.
Brigid, I already have a lawyer and will double check with him before transferring my paychecks. What I remember him saying before was that as long as the bills, groceries, etc. get paid, the courts will probably not care exactly where the money is in the meantime. I will definitely check before I do anything, though. This lawyer told me that he is not willing to take actions just to cause problems opr be vindictive, that he will only work to resolve issues as cooperatively as possible. I liked him right away. :) I did warn him about the situation with my wife, but right now I am working on the assumption that my wife and I will work out the main points. If that doesn't work out, then I can pay him the retainer for a contested divorce. We will see...
Sela, I like your "new" name. I'm moving toward option #2 to just end it. If by some sequence of miracles we were to get back together, we could always remarry. Not likely from my point of view, but one possibility. I'm not worried about going to hell for doing this since I'm saved, but more about what it does to my relationship with God. I hope that thinking about this first and not as an afterthought counts for something. I don't believe that God had a hand in causing this marriage and understands that I am not "perfect" enough to survive it if I stayed.
daylily, you hit it on the head. I really am not doing my wife a favor by staying. I am not willing to do ANY work to be her husband or her partner anymore. I'm not using that as a cop out or excuse. Honestly, that is not the main reason I am leaving. However, my staying, even as a distant receptacle for her blame and garbage, does her no favors. Ultimately, it comes down to the fact that I cannot be in this relationship willingly and wanting to be there anymore. My presence past this point would only be an act without any possibility of substance. I am already emotionally divorced right now, I'm just trying to comprehend what that means for me.
Ultimately, I'm trying to approach getting divorced by working on my issues ahead of time, instead of being the ping pong ball again. I'm getting little pieces every day and have a deeper understanding already. Getting other peoples' diverse viewpoints helps me to step outside the situation and look at it from different angles. I realize at the end of the day the decisions and responsibility are mine alone. That doesn't mean I have to *feel* alone during this time, though. :)
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Hey long
That doesn't mean I have to *feel* alone during this time, though.
You know we are here for you and we have all felt the deep aloneness felt from broken relationships.
I can tell you have sorted alot of the painful thoughts out and found a great peacful perspective on most of them.
Once the heart has harden for the other it's over.
You could have difficulties, even adultry and over come them if both are willing to forgive and work things out. Why does the heart harden towards the other? what ever the reason GOD said divorce in this case was allowed. I know you know all of this, I have been sorting these thoughts out too and have been leaving it up to GOD to figure it out for me.
I don't want to be someone with answers to give when I don't know them myself. I wonder if the personality disorders are just more than anyone can imagine, the mind is very complicated. There are so many books some of it is so text book.
I know my relationship had many failures but IM not a failure and will not look at the lies and manipulation as anything I could control.
I know my heart was in the right place no matter what my H tries to tell me.
I thank GOD for this site and all who have shared their pain so that people like me could grow beyond the darkness I was in.
Longtire, I think of how you would tell me that what I had to say was worth saying and not the crazy stuff from my H. I have used this thought many times since then. Thank you YOU ARE MY HERO!!
Take care...............OR
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few people are 'themselves' at the start of a relationship...we all want to be our best selves at that point; it's only natural.
The difference between personality-disordered people and everyone else is that there is no 'let-up', no showing a real self to make a real relationship with.
When someone has a pd they act out ad infinitum, and it reaches a stage where the other people engaged don't know what's real or not...
And sometimes by this time we love the good points and personality and ( if you're anything like me ) find it hard to disengage.
After all: if only a few factors could be altered, everything would be perfect.
***
the last guy I dated started off by telling me he was estranged from his wife.
We got closer, then I realised- they still lived together.
Finally, after a few weeks, I realised he had several women like me, trying to make a half-assed relationship, hanging on, stringing us all along.
But at NO POINT did he recogniise that this was weird, even when I challenged him, and there was no closure for what he was doing.
That's the difficulty for most of us- we want to know for definite what is happening.
People with personality disorders aren't able to let us know;
they're so busy with their own issues we don't even count.
This is the time for us to take charge of our lives and get rid of the parasites...
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"Mati, glad to see you posting more again. If my wife had been honest about how she would behave when I first knew her, I never would have married her or even continued to see her. Of course in this case, the dishonesty and denial IS the problem itself. This is not an issue where we can work together to find common ground and work out a compromise. That IS the problem in itself. We couldn't ever find common ground because she was too busy dumping on me to keep from feeling so bad herself. It was certainly a mistake to get married. Myabe if I were a saint, I could stay, but I'm not a saint, and I'm glad for it in this case. By the way, what do you mean about being sanctified by your suffering? I have heard this before in passing, but don't know what it means."
Hi longtire and thanks. Yes it was a mistake but one in which you were kept ignorant of the full facts of the person you werre commiting to. We can only make a decision on the fact we have presented to us and your wife hid her real self and her problems which cannot be changed. You cannot be held responsible for being deceived. It is not His will that we are abused. Well obviously we can move out but stay in the marriage. That is between you and God. My nH ended the marriage so I am going ahead with the divorce as a legal thing.
God does not force us to do anything against our will. His will is that marriage is for life. But each case is individual. You need to hear Him on this.
I wanted out of the marriage for a long time and used to fantisize hearing that H had died. I felt so trapped. I believed that God gave me a choice. He said that I could get out if I wanted and that it would not mean that my relationship with Him would be affected.
But if I accepted His will, then He could use my unhappiness to produce deep spiritual growth in me which in fact happened. I had to dig deeply in the hillside to find silver to counteract the despair. But it had to be with my consent all of the way.
The process is described in "Hinds feet in high places" by Hannah Hurnard a wonderful analogy of the spiritual path to full union with Christ.
If you are having doubts about the divorce then I would delay a while until I was sure what God was saying. But leaving the home is the right thing. Staying is enabling your wife to continue to abuse you and therefore sin.
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OR, I don't so much feel that my heart is hardened toward my wife. These days its softer toward her than it's been in many years. I feel like I kept trying to stay open and connected with her but she kept chopping off the connections with an axe and just got ahead of me and cut the last one. Mati, thanks for the explanation. I'm getting the book, probably Friday this week.
A lot of stuff has been coming up over the last few days. This is not directed at anyone here. I trust the people here a lot, which is why I feel safe enough to let this out here.
I don't want to be a saint. I don't want to be sanctified. I am sick and tired of hurting. If this has all been God's plan for me, then his plan sucks! Where has he been for the last 17 years? Where was he in my life before that? I tried to seek him out, but couldn't find a connection. I cried out for his help through my life and for the first few years of this marriage, until I realized that God wasn't going to move in any way in this relationship. He hadn't before. He still hasn't. He was there to keep me from killing myself and from hitting absolute rock bottom and dying in my own life, but he has never done anything helpful in this relationship. Does that mean he didn't intend this? Does his absence in this mean that standing up for myself is something I had to learn to do for myself? Like a parent forcing their child to tie their own shoe when they know the child can, to teach them independence?
I rejected God as useless for not responding to the things I suffered as a kid and in this sham of a marriage. I wrote Him off for a long, long time. He came back anyway and let me know without doubt he really did exist and is really there. I can't ignore the truth of that. The relationship I have with Him now is of love and acceptance and wanting me to be my best. He hasn't said I'm supposed to stay in this marriage. I prayed and he answered that it was OK to move out. Instead of opposing a wrong move, he made a way for me in that. I don't want to hurt this renewed relationship any worse that I already have.
I think one of the reasons I want to get a divorce now is I'm afraid that if I wait, I'll find out that God wants me to stay in this marriage after all. I can't live with my wife now. I don't want to waste any more time or energy of my life trying to find a way to tolerate her behavior. If God snapped his fingers right now and she were immediately whole, I still don't want to be with her. I just don't have any desire to have her in my life any longer. I don't see any point. I remember reading somewhere that hate is not the opposite of love, both show very strong connection. Apathy is the opposite of love, of connection. I really understand that now. I didn't sit down and decide to change the way I feel, it just is how I feel now. I can't even put my finger on exactly when it happened. Its like feeling hungry or tired. It is just a natural feeling that happens without conscious decision.
I think there is something underlying real relationships that is beyond conscious and even unconscious motivations. I don't know what to call it. Grace, maybe? I'm not sure if that word fits here or not. A connection of some kind that is there even when consciousness loses sight of it. I feel like that is gone now. There just IS no connection anymore. Is this God's way of ending the relationship and letting me out? Is that just wishful thinking? I just know at this point that there is no way I could even fake being a husband in relationship to my wife ever again.
Is this one of those things where God won't respond until I'm willing to listen to what he says? That if I refuse to consider going back, he won't talk until I accept whatever he says, even if he had no intention of telling me to go back? I don't know how else to word this. There is probably a better way to express this concept. Do I have to give up my own will in this before God will talk to me about it? Maybe that's a better way to say it. I don't like what he let happen for so long, I'm not sure I like his will in things.
I haven't brought this up to people in church because I just don't know how I would react getting the stock, "Every marriage can be saved, marriage is forever and no divorce except for adultery" line. There is no "Love your neighbor" in that, and I'm afraid my reply probably wouldn't have much in it either. Am I supposed to suffer for the rest of my life, because I was deceived and made a mistake in youth and ignorance based on the family that I was born in and didn't get to choose? What possible reason could God have for wanting that to continue? Is this just a rule for the majority of people who would feel like cutting and running when things get a little difficult, but are still solvable? Does God not give a shit about abuse? If we were back in biblical times, would I just be expect to beat my wife into line or stone her if she didn't obey? I eat pork and have worked on Sunday before. Am I screwed for that too?
If God knows everything, then he must have known I would be where I am today, physically, emotionally, and spiritually. He must have known that I can't tolerate this marriage anymore. He must know that I am not willing to choose to suffer further without seeing any point. Maybe at this point he will let me out of this marriage for my wife's sake. Maybe he has been waiting for me to finally get tired enough of this marriage to help me get out. Something is broken. Something is gone. The ONLY reason I am even thinking about this at this point is my relationship with God.
My wife will never divorce me as long as she gets a lot of money from me every month. She will never have an affair because from what I can tell she is sexually anorexic. She would continue to leech off me and suck me dry until one of us died. I should be so lucky for her to file for divorce. I would give it to her in an instant. She won't do that as long as she can use me for money and as a respectable front of a married woman to not have to face her issues and shortcomings. Mati, I respect that you chose to stay with you H until he filed on you. I truly do not believe that my W would ever do that. Besides, it is my role to be the bad guy with her, so I would have to file. Is it possible that she really does want a diorce, she just needs me to be the bad guy by filing? I hadn't considered that.
I feel like I'm rambling and doubt this makes any sense. If it does, please explain it to me, because it doesn't make sense to me. I trust that being aware of my feelings, feeling them fully, expressing my feelings and exploring will get me to the truth eventually. I feel a lot of weight with this right now, though.
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Good luck with this, Long. I've wrestled for decades with the same issue. Can't say I've made much progress - or found much help or understanding, either - although I am very grateful for the help and understanding I have received from a few people, here and there.
I've come near to losing my faith over this.
The only thing that ever helps me is to think about Christ the Man, living the way he lived. So poor he had only the clothes on his back. Dusty, hot, tired, hungry, houseless... alone more often than not because not even his disciples understood what he meant, much of the time. And even knowing what he had to go through - that awful darkness, that absolute aloneness, that Eloi Eloi lamach sabachthani utter black despair - knowing he had to, and would, and what it would bring to the world - he still felt the despair, he still had that moment-longer-than-forever of absolute hopelessness.
Only remembering that allows me to go on living, some days. Only that.
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longtire (very appropriate)
I trust that being aware of my feelings, feeling them fully, expressing my feelings and exploring will get me to the truth eventually.
Yes I think so.
I am sick and tired of hurting. If this has all been God's plan for me, then his plan sucks
I do not believe it was His plan for you to commit to an unsuitable marriage. I know that at the time of my marriage, I was far from Him. If we are close to Him then we will be able to choose somone we can be one with and have His blessing. I married in disobedience as he was not even a Christian. But I made a decision so ultimately even though I was not aware of the full facts, I chose to marry.
I can easily relate to your spiritual struggles. I have spent many many years feeling that God did not care, had deserted me, had given me far too much to cope with. I nearly threw my Bible out at one time. The worst of it was that I could not talk to other Christians about my feelings and my isolation and my feeling that I was the only Christian ever to feel like I did. I was very angry with God for allowing so many bad things in my life, from sexual childhood abuse to marrying a compulsive gambler (another divorce) and for me not having the thing I craved for ie a loving close family. And I was stuck in a marriage where most of the time was spent in despair with a little gratitude for the plateaus inbetween.
Is this one of those things where God won't respond until I'm willing to listen to what he says? That if I refuse to consider going back, he won't talk until I accept whatever he says, even if he had no intention of telling me to go back? I don't know how else to word this. There is probably a better way to express this concept. Do I have to give up my own will in this before God will talk to me about it? Maybe that's a better way to say it. I don't like what he let happen for so long, I'm not sure I like his will in things.
Yes. I think that what God wants from us is the choice of His will over ours whatever it will cost us. And once we make this choice, then we can find that He only wanted this from us, then He will have the freedom to choose what is good for us which may well be what our choice was. But we must take that step out into the dark for us to develop the trust that will transform us. He is good and He loves us and His promises can be relied on. He says that ALL things work for the good of those who are in Christ. Without this trust, then we are living our lives in our own way, and all things will NOT work for our good, well not to the extent of good that He wants for us. God had to let me go through hell and listen to my constant complaints against Him in order to bring me to the point where all of the walls I had built up during my childhood, could be broken down and I could open my heart to Him. I had caused my own suffering by closing up on Him. The times I had cried out in total agony, and thought that He ignored me, were hard for Him too as He wanted to ease my pain but I had to go through it for Him to be able to put right what was wrong with me. It is not about being rarified 'saints' it is about us being whole and living life in abundance. I hope this makes sense.
it is my role to be the bad guy with her, so I would have to file. Is it possible that she really does want a diorce, she just needs me to be the bad guy by filing? I hadn't considered that.
Yes it could be so. My H ended the marriage but wanted us to continue to live together so that he could 'look after me' (good guy) So he was saying that I want out of this unhappy marriage caused by this woman, which is obvious because it is me saying I want to exit, but I am going to be a good guy and do the right thing. What he really wanted was that he could do whatever he wanted (including making the payments on a huge debt he ran up behind my back) and I could have no say. But he wanted me around to mop up his mess and take responsibility as usual for everything and he come up smelling of roses again. I walked out. The funny thing was, that I now found it unbearable to be away and wanted to be back with him (Stockholm Syndrome I expect).
I think one of the reasons I want to get a divorce now is I'm afraid that if I wait, I'll find out that God wants me to stay in this marriage after all.
Yes I can understand that. But what do you want? Do you want union with Christ? Is that your motivation in life? I know you want out of this mental agony. But Christ can release you from it now by giving you a new and fresh way of seeing your life. It is your thoughts which are causing your agony.
I must say that I am going through this with you and learning myself about my relationship with God which has been pretty bad these last two years. Before that I had grown a great deal through my pain, in unimaginable ways.
But it is up to choose if we want to go on this path. And God has mercy towards us and does not beat us up if we choose not to. He wants willing servants not slaves. All I can say to you is that the narrow way is worth it. But we must weigh up the cost. All it costs us is to give up the right to ourselves, and it can happen in an instant and when we do we will be released from our pain. But it is the hardest thing in life to do....death to self. The flesh screams out for us not to do it.
The step out into the dark is terrifying but He is there with His arms out waitin to catch us even though everything in our life before this looks like He will not be there. I believe that for those who will go this way, it has been necessary for the dark night of the soul (or 40 years in my case). It would help you perhaps to read about others who have gone this way.
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longtire,
I'm going to choose to get a little tough on you here, so I apologize in advance. I must say that your struggles with filing for divorce seem very similar to those of moving out of the house. When all other reasons have been dispelled the question of whether God would want this becomes the last excuse. I don't know what faith you practice, but church doctrines are just that--interpretations by humans of what they think God wants from us. Doctrines vary greatly from religion to religion and you would not have members of many faiths saying that only infidelity or abuse is a reason to end a marriage (although in your case, abuse would be a factor).
IMO God will not come down and lead you by the hand to make a decision about this. Trust me, when all is said and done, it doesn't make a darn bit of difference who filed the papers. In my case, I did not want the divorce, I would have hung on to the bitter end, I would have sacrificed my entire self to keep it together and would have been doomed to a life of mistrust, worry, lonliness within the relationship, and a loveless union. I refused to file and made him do it since it was his quest. In retrospect, I should have been running so quickly in the opposite direction and filing the moment I found out all the lies and deceit. I know I did not at that time because of my great fear of abandonment, but those kinds of things can only be determined once the smoke has cleared.
At the time he left, I thought God had abandoned me. The truth was that my xH had abandoned Him and God entered my life and is leading me through the process. I have felt His helping hand in many things that have happened in the last two years, but I would not have seen that if I had not been open to it. My xh claims that God would want him to be happy and therefore he was justified in what he did. The truth is that he turned his back on God so he could do whatever he wanted without fear of retribution.
You did not come to this point without much consideration and effort. What more can you do? You know that your wife will not change and your marriage could potentially last another 30 years or more. Once your daughter is out of the house, what then would there be to keep you together. As my therapist has told me on many occasions, my marriage was doomed for years and it was only a matter of time before it collapsed. Once the kids start leaving, (my xh left 2 months after my son left for college) many couples begin to realize that they haven't had anything in common for years and there is nothing to talk about and they don't enjoy each other's company. If you did not have a good relationship when the kids are around, it will only get worse when they're gone. I am seeing it all around me now with new divorces being announced weekly.
Wishing you peace and light.
Brigid
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Hi long,
Do I have to give up my own will in this before God will talk to me about it?
I believe God speaks to us all the time in many ways, but if we place our will above His we won't hear most or any of what He says.
Maybe that's a better way to say it. I don't like what he let happen for so long, I'm not sure I like his will in things.
What He wants to happen in our lives and what He allows to happen in our lives are two different things. If God's will was being done on earth at all times He wouldn't have told us to pray that His will be done on earth as it is in heaven, right?
I want my daughter to be perfect. I do not try to force her to be, so I allow her free will to choose right from wrong. My will is for her to choose correctly, sometimes her will is not. She then suffers the consequences. If I shield her from those consequences she learns nothing and never grows up. But she also knows that if her choice is truly bad I am always there to pick her up and to comfort her when it goes wrong.
It was probably not God's will that you marry your wife in the first place. You made a bad choice (for whatever reason) and you are going through the consequences of it. He's not going to give you a spoon full of sugar and tuck you in. He's our Father in heaven not Mary Poppins. He doesn't desire our cozy comfort, but our conformation to His Son, and unfortunately for us because of our nature, that usually only comes about through suffering. Most turn away from the suffering because it hurts so much, and lose the blessing of what He is trying to do in our lives.
Why do we wish that God would do for His children, what we would think harmful if we did it for our own?
As I've told you before, I'm not advising you to divorce or not. Whichever you choose though, God will be there alongside. He may be smiling or He may be shaking His head, but He'll be there.
If your choice is not His will, He will let you know eventually and will foregive you if you ask Him to. If it is His will, He will also let you know that eventually.
In the garden Christ fell on His face and prayed, "Oh Father, if it is possible let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless not as I will but as You will." Just prior to this He said His soul was exceedingly sorrowful even unto death. Finding and following God's will is usually not easy or painless, if it was the way to it wouldn't be narrow and hard.
The only advice I have, is to wait. As you said, you're wife isn't going anywhere. If you're afraid that if you wait God will show you His will and it won't be what you want, then it sounds like you are not committed to doing His will. Be still and know that He is God.
The great thing about God is, if we blow it and follow our own will rather than His, His own Son has already paid the ultimate price for our missteps, because, unlike us, He always did His father's will. :D 8)
mudpup
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I think one of the reasons I want to get a divorce now is I'm afraid that if I wait, I'll find out that God wants me to stay in this marriage after all.
I don't think God is this big a control freak. He will accept whatever you do. You are his child and that's it.
bunny
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The big reason I'm in the middle right now is trying to figure out whether it is OK with God that I divorce my wife. Please, don't tell me not to worry about it or anything like that. If I could have done that, I probably would have by now. Whether you believe in God or not doesn't matter.
I feel for you in your struggle, Longtire. It took me four years with my husband and a further three after asking him to leave, before I divorced him. During that time I wrestled with the question of whether it was right to divorce or not. I kept hearing people on the radio talking about how you had to work at marriage, and I thought, how much harder can I work?
Eventually, at the end of those painful years, I came out a little wiser. What I learned was the following:
Marriage is there to protect a relationship between two people. If there is no relationship there is no marriage. Whether you have a piece of paper or not, the marriage only survives as long as the mutual love and understanding and support survive. If you never had those things, you were never married.
If you had a piece of paper saying you are married, but do not have the love and support of a partner, then as far as God is concerned you are not married, and never have been. As far as he is concerned you are in an abusive relationship, and he will never support you in trying to make that work. He will not lift a finger to support a relationship which is a blasphemy against the sanctity and holiness of marriage. Marriage is a sacrament. My marriage was founded on lies, built on alcoholism, included theft, slander, abuse, manipulation; and I prayed to God to help me sustain this. No wonder he didn't answer my prayers.
As I say, it took me a long time to understand why he did not help. When it finally got through, and I got the divorce, the silence from God stopped, and I heard very clearly; 'And about time too!'
I did not stop loving my ex, but I divorced him in spite of that, because he used my love against me. I had to stop letting him do that, and protect both myself and my daughter. There is no need to feel guilty if you do the same. Divorce is not a sin. Abuse of the sacrament of marriage is the sin. (imho)
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I kept hearing people on the radio talking about how you had to work at marriage, and I thought, how much harder can I work?
Yes yes yes, October, absolutely. We work until we have nubs where our fingers should be... the thing is, those talk shows so rarely finish the thought. They never point out that BOTH parties have to be doing the work. And there isn't an N on the planet who's going to lift a finger to contribute to any relationship.
And "it took me sooooo long to find out (I found out!)"
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Hi Long:
Sorry you are feeling so confused and alone. I'm glad you're posting and trying to make your own sense of things.
Here's what I don't believe:
I don't believe in a God that sits on a throne and makes nasty plans for anyone.
I don't believe that's what He does.
I don't believe He gave us free will, only to take it away and dictate stuff for us.
I don't believe He chooses what happens to us or what we experience.
I do not believe in a God that punishes us for mistakes that we regret and take responsibility for/try to make up for/make restitution for/or are unaware of.
I do not believe the horrors/errors/pains of this world are God's will or of Him.
In other words, the evil in this world is not God's but the good....is.
I do not believe in a God that condemns repenting sinners.
I do not believe God starves us in this world.
I do not believe God leads us into temptation or evil.
Here's what I do believe:
I do believe in a God that waits patiently for us to come to Him.
I do believe He knows what will happen and is there for us when it does.
I do believe He gave us the gift of free will and allows us to use it and that He is there for us, when we make mistakes, or use our free will to make bad choices (and when we do well too).
I do believe He allows us to decide what to do, who to be with, what to learn from experiences.
I do believe He forgives us for our mistakes/poor choices and expects us to do the same for those who "trespass against us" (and he knows this is dificult sometimes).
I do believe there is another world in which there is no horror/error/pain...another world in which God's good is the only thing present...no evil.
I do believe God welcomes all who repent for their mistakes/errors/sins.
I believe God feeds us with love while we are here in this and in the next world.
I believe God leads us not into temptation/evil but delivers us out/away from it, with His love.
I believe God loves us and we have only to accept His love.
I believe His plan for us is in regard to another life.
Therefore, I think your choice to divorce will not effect your relationship with God. He is waiting for you, He knows what will happen and He will be there for you when it does. The gift of free will He gave you is yours and He will be there for you, whether you make a good or bad choice re divorce. He will forgive you if it ends up being a bad one, by chance. I also think He did not abandon you, ever, but has always been there for you, even in childhood, but you may not have been aware of it.
I think God's love for you extends far beyond your human imperfections/ability to act perfectly/to always choose right and He knows how impossible that perfection is for you or any of us.
(((((((Longtire))))))))
Sela
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Once again thank you all for your replies. I am always amazed at the depth and care of people's posts here. Excellent posts, every one.
I am feeling much, much better today. Of course, despite the title, this thread is really about my relationship with God, not divorce. I continued to pray about this last night after posting. I thought about it this morning. I had a session with my counselor today and did a lot of hard work. Then, I went to church after work to find the message was on connecting to God. I have made a lot of progress, with a lot left to go. The good news is that things can get much better.
I don't have this sorted out yet by any means, but I did get a critical understanding in counseling today. My experience of my family as a kid set the archetype for existence and relationship. In other words, a very old/young part of my brain still thinks that because my parents were emotionally sterile, that I am as well. That everyone is, the world is, the universe is and God is too. That there is no real connection and the only way to get decent treatment is to suffer and work superhumanly hard to try to earn it. So, none of this was coming from God at all. In fact, all this crap, these lies, have been getting in the way of a real relationship with Him from the beginning. I can't say I've got the relationship with Him down yet, but I can see how this basis for my life colored EVERYTHING, but isn't actually real.
I can at least see now that God in no way intended for this marriage to happen the way it has. I don't believe he wants me to suffer or that he wants me to stay in something that is unhealthy for me for no good reason. I might need to make some sacrifices at various times in my life, but I don't need to suffer pointlessly like I had. I can have all the good to help balance the other out. As October posted above and in the message tonight, God is not going to support something bad for me, even if I think it is supposed to be good. He would not support a drug habit for me, why would he support a poisonous relationship for me. I think that I've never really been close enough to know that his silence meant he did not approve. I don't believe He ever intended this relationship and has been waiting for me to wake up and make better choices in my life. So I am.
After all that, it wasn't about divorce or God or any other topics. Of course, it is all about me and the screwed up messages I got as a kid. The good news is that I can change my mind now and see things a different way. Thank you all again for your support, your thoughts and prayers and your being here for me. I shudder to think where I might be right now if I hadn't found this place. Just another blessing!
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The gift of free will He gave you is yours and He will be there for you, whether you make a good or bad choice re divorce. He will forgive you if it ends up being a bad one, by chance.
I think this comment slightly misses the point about free choice.
If I give my daughter free choice about what to wear, and then think to myself 'Oh dear, she has chosen the wrong thing', no doubt showing that thought on my face, then that is not free choice. That is at best dishonest, at worst an attempt to coerce her into mindreading in future; choose what you think I will like, to keep me happy. Lots of Christians treat God this way, but it is not what he actually wants for us, imo. It makes God into the ultimate Narcissist.
Free choice means that whatever C chooses, I am going to say, 'You look lovely!' Because I allow her to be who she is, rather than expecting her to be me, or to support my ego by being or looking how I want her to look.
When God gives us free will, I personally believe that he allows us to choose, without judging our choices. We choose the direction and he goes with us, wherever that direction leads us, freely and without judging or saying 'I told you so.' Life is about making mistakes; our own mistakes. God is about being alongside us all the way.
There is no 'wrong' decision for Longtire to make, therefore. The only wrong decision would be one made by someone else, or to keep someone else happy.
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October,
Life is about making mistakes; our own mistakes. God is about being alongside us all the way.
I really like this statement. A simple solution to a very complicated concept.
longtire,
I think you are on the right track now. God is the only constant that can ever be in our lives. All of us on this board know that all other aspects of life can change on a dime, including our own existence, so the only thing we can count on always being there is the presence of God in our lives. Many times we don't think about that or look for it until we are in crisis (there are no atheists in foxholes). Learning to be grateful for it each and every day is a process I am trying to incorporate into my life. I am trying not to be complacent--not waiting for the next crisis--but actually being aware and thankful daily, no matter what kind of day I have had. For someone who was not raised with faith, it has been a challenge, but I am getting better and as a result, my life gets better.
God bless on your journey.
Brigid
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Hi October,
Not trying to be a smart mouth, but if we take your argument to its logical conclusion regarding free will we end up with some pretty bizarre results.
For instance:
If your daughter exercises her free will by going out to the mall without a stitch of clothes on, are you really going to tell her she looks lovely and see her out the door?
Or perhaps my daughter decides to try some new makeup and ends up looking like Bozo the clown. Am I really being more honest if I tell her she looks lovely, than if I tell her she might want to check the mirror again?
There is no 'wrong' decision for Longtire to make, therefore.
If Longtire decides it would be morally wrong to divorce his wife, but also that he can't live with her, and so decides to push her off a bridge, is there really no wrong decision? (don't get any ideas long :P :shock:)
I don't see how either a parent or God using their free will to express their desired behavior interfere's with the concept of other's free will.
The concept of free will implies that there are good and bad choices. God wants us to make good choices and He has given us a guide to know what those choices are.
Now, will He leave us or forsake us if we make a bad choice? Absolutely not. If we harm ourselves He will comfort us, if we harm others He will forgive us. But He is most assuredly interested in influencing us into making the right choice. The free will is involved when we decide to do what we please anyway. He, like us as parents, has free will to show us His preferences, and everyone has free will to ignore them.
Free will to me means we have the right to choose despite all the evidence to the contrary that our choice is bad. It doesn't mean freedom from that evidence.
Where would my free will go if I am not allowed to tell someone their freely made choice is about to harm them or someone else?
We are free of coercion, not influence.
mudpup
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Hi Longtire, good to read you again!
As usual, when I started reading this thread I thought of some things to say, but, also as usual, by the time I got to the end you had already figured them out by yourself (and much more too)... :) 8) I am so impressed by your never-ending capacity for making progress. Anyway, as you might now I'm not a believer (well, not a christian anyway, more of a pantheist, although I agree with Jesus' teachings... this is getting confusing, get back on track Sleepy!), but from where I stand it seems that there are so many different churches with so many different teachings, even within christianity, but surely what matters most is your own personal relationship with God? If God speaks to you, is not that so much purer and truer than anything a priest can say? And it seems to me that He said to you that it's ok to leave your wife... But what do I know of religious matters?! :lol: :oops: :roll:
Anyway, I'm really happy to hear that you found God again! And wathever you decide to do, my thoughts and best wishes are with you.
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Just a quick note. I realized a couple of other things through today. That I think most of what God tells us in the bible in the form of rules or laws is really just warnings that if you do these things, you will suffer the negative consequences. Don't do them and you will be happier. I know there is more to it than that, but it struck me how much of it can be seen this way. God saying don't do that or you will get hurt.
And like sleepyhead posted, the important thing is to have a direct relationship with God. All the other religions and religious stuff is intended to make that easier, at least originally, but can actually get in the way if not kept in its place. Relationships with others are good too, of course.
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On Free Will -
I get a newsletter called The Berean Call. A very interesting article in there about a year talked about Free Will and morality. I agree with the authors and it gave me a new perspective on the Bible and the precepts and laws.
Every human being is born with the innate ability to know right from wrong. Every human being is born with Free Will. God cannot take away Free Will. It was freely given.
On a direct relationship with God -
A personal relationship with God is what helped survive the memories of the horrific things which happened to me. By personal, I mean that God lives inside me. He's not a distant, omnipotent, omnipresent God. Rather a personal, intimate, loving God.
The book Controlling People by Patricia Evans addresses the difference between a distant relationship with God and a personal relationship with God.
I know, for me, having God living inside me, knowing He is part of me, was a big step. Not necessarily in letting go and letting God, but in knowing He loved me so much He would lovingly care for me.
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Hi October,
Not trying to be a smart mouth, but if we take your argument to its logical conclusion regarding free will we end up with some pretty bizarre results.
mudpup
I disagree.
I am not going to go into detail on your examples, I think what I have already said is enough, but I don't want to get into angels dancing on pinheads.
God does not control by manipulation, whatever religions may suggest to the contrary. Neither should we, imo. That is all.
Please refrain from untoward imagery relating to my daughter.
Thank you.
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That I think most of what God tells us in the bible in the form of rules or laws is really just warnings that if you do these things, you will suffer the negative consequences. Don't do them and you will be happier. I know there is more to it than that, but it struck me how much of it can be seen this way. God saying don't do that or you will get hurt.
A lot of the rules in the Bible do not come from God but from man. The warnings of negative consequences are human too, imo. Patriarchal societies are built on threats, and the Bible was written in the context of patriarchy.
God is not about making threats. God is love, mercy and compassion. Anything that differs from those qualities is not of God, but of man, imho.
This may be too simplistic for some people, but it is what I believe.
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I give up. :?
mud
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Hi, Longtire. I have been away (still am) but took a moment at someone's computer. I apologize in advance if I have not read the whole thread thoroughly, but I wanted you to know that I am thinking of you and sending you lots of strength and love.
It occurs to me that you are dealing with a lot of fear and deciding who will win. (you or the fear). That you are facing it at all means you have already won, regardless of the outcome. All this talk of God is marvelous, and I feel that disconnection from the devine causes us lots of suffering.... but the bottom line (for me) is that nothing will rescue us from ourselves, and that surrendering to the idea that along with being mindful (you certainly are) we must at some point let go of feeling we have to know everything and have everything figured out. It can't be done, we are human.
Bless you, longtire. Go with your loving intention and, frankly, stop looking for a life preserver....you have everything you need within yourself to do what is right. Have faith.
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mum, yes I face the fear now. I don't fear, but I dread facing it. If it hasn't killed me by now, then it's never going to kill me unless I let it.
I got the book Hinds' Feet on High Place and read about a third of it this morning, interspersed with prayer, meditation, and guided imagery. It is already starting to help me see more clearly. I think I overdid it though. I'm exhausted with a headache this afternoon. Still, I don't regret doing this work now. I got a fortune cookie the other day right after therapy. It said, "It is better to do things late, than never at all."
I wanted to share this. Seeds of Light. We are all reallly just light, but as soon as we come into the world, we start to form hard, opaque seed shells around our true selves to "protect" ourselves. The shells keep other people from seeing that we are really light, just as theirs keeps us from seeing them as light. Also, our own shells keep us from seeing others' light as well. Since no one can see others clearly, we end up stepping on each other's toes without even realizing it. The things is, we don't need the shells in the first place. If the seeds inside never get out then the shell only hurts, not helps. The shells are lies. Lies that are not who we are. The shells whisper in our ears that we need them, but the truth is we would all be far better off without them. I don't mean to suggest that many people don't need "shells" to protect them from others who hurt them, especially as children. I mean that as adults, as human beings, we don't need these shells for ourselves. They only hurt us.
My shell has distorted my view of who I am, what I am, and everything else about existence. The lies I was told were that nobody can possibly care about others. That I didn't have any value. That other people had the reight to define and judge me because there was nothing inherent in my existence. That I didn't have any value or deserve good treatment because there was nothing special about me. That last is true in a way, I'm no more or less special than anyone else, but I deserve good things just because I'm here. Lies within the lies and only the lies justify themselves, nothing else does.
I'm not willing to give those lies any credibility any more. I finally see them for what they are. They are not me. I am light. We all are. I trust that the path will show me where to go from here. I'm pulling up the stakes of my old life and moving into new territory. mum, you are right. I have everything I need in order to do and be what is right and intended. I always have, but couldn't see it through the lies before. What an awesome and exhausting week! :shock: 8) :)
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Hi Longtire. Just read this thread. Haven’t read other’s replies so sorry if I’m repeating. Saw this very early:
After 16 years of refusing to go get help (I had offered many, many times) she suggested a marriage weekend. I agreed because I wanted to be able to tell my daughter that I had tried EVERYTHING.
Why?
Your daughter’s happiness and mental balance does not depend on your trying everything to save your marriage. Fact.
Your daughter will not judge you through her mother’s eyes.
You are the parent: she is the child. She has her own life and though your life affects her, she is not emotionally judging you – yet...!
What matters to her is what happens to her – not you or her mother.
Imagine your parents saying what you said above, about you. Can you?
Sorry Longtire if this is hurtful. Is it?
About you, and marriage and God (and you know my thoughts), so:
Were you and your wife ever really married? If you review the marriage vows, was there ever a time you were truly married (in the eyes of God if you like)?
I doubt it. A true marriage isn’t about legal documents. It’s about two people deeply caring for each other. It didn’t happen, it was a legal joining, made by men. Did God tell you to get married? If not, why should He tell you to divorce? Too rational maybe!
I don't want to hurt this renewed relationship any worse that I already have.
Can you hurt God’s feelings? Can you hurt God?
You know that you will not die for doing what you want to do. You would have as a tiny child. But now you can care for yourself. And you don’t need anyone’s permission to do that.
I'm afraid that if I wait, I'll find out that God wants me to stay in this marriage after all.
What a cruel God you would have. What a cruel father/Father?
Glad to see you Longtire and so glad you’re feeling and thinking as you are. Just the way you are! (((Longtire)))
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Portia, keep reading to see the conclusions that I've come to since then. I start with the things I ridiculously think/believe/feel at that moment and then talk my way through, challenging every aspect of my stuff. By the time I'm done, I can hardly comprehend that I used to believe the original things. Still, I can go back over the events of my life and see what lead me to those early beliefs. It is not until recently that I have had enough peace and acceptance in my life to feel safe taking on these things all at once this way. That I've felt safe enough to dive all the way to the bottom, or at least as far as I can reach, and work my way back up.
I no longer believe that I am hopeless or that things are hopeless for me. I have been able to change things about myself that I thought were permanent, inseperable parts of me. I can see now that all the good things that used to only happen to other people can easily happen for me. I am no better or worse than any other person. I can choose all the good that anyone else has, or better yet, I can choose all the good that means the most to me.
I'm taking a break from Hinds' Feet today to rest up. I did a lot yesterday and it left me feeling like I was run over by a truck several times. :? I feel much better today and am taking care of things around my house. :D
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Hi, Longtire--
Long time no reply :)
This echoes what some others have said, but I think that the reflection of god we get through the bible or wherever is just a reflection, with the same possibilities for distortion that all reflections have. You don't really have to figure out what god wants by reading the bible or anything else. You can just ask. He (or she or whatever) will let you know.
And I think the reason for rules is so that folks who are more motivated by momentary impulses will have a sense of guidance. So, the idea of not getting divorced really means "take seriously the vow that you made." It's the vow and your word that are sacred, not the marriage per se. I think that you have honored your vow and your word. You have weighed them against everything else. And try not to underweigh some of the things that god wants for you-- to be the best you can be, to be at peace, to create a family that is warm and loving and not filled with the kind of anxiety you've had. I think it's great to want to sacrifice for others, but in this case who would you be helping? No one. So, how does that advance a spiritual cause?
My favorite joke is that one about the guy who is drowning. He asks god to help him. A boat comes and offers to take the guy to shore, and he says "no, I prayed, and god will come." Then a helicopter comes, same thing. Then a talking whale comes and offers him a ride to shore. No, thanks, he says, god will come. So the guy drowns. He goes to heaven. God is there and he asks him why he let him drown. God (who has a voice just like Mel Brooks) says "let you drown? what do you want? I sent a boat, I send a helicopter, I sent a whale!"
It's fine to be a martyr. But it's important to be a martyr TO something if you choose that route :) In this case, everyone wins (it seems) if you follow what your heart is telling you to do. If there is some reason you truly don't believe that, or are not sure what your heart is telling you, then maybe there is something still to be worked out in couple's therapy, to see what you are saving. Is there something worth sacrificing for?
Hang in there.
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Just a late night musing-- I wonder if something in christianity (which is the religion I practice, although I'll admit to being very open to all religions and having dabbled in many) encourages sacrifice even in cases where it is not necessary or even is unduly masochistic? Sacrifice certainly seems like a better position to take in many cases than others (e.g., dominant abuse!) and as a message, the idea of giving to others does provide a window into what spirituality is supposed to be, but, I dunno, there is something in the whole thing that also could lead to an abandonment of responsibility to (and understanding of) self. Not that I think it's on purpose or a flaw or anything like that; it's just that every message has its nuances, and I've noticed in myself over the years and in other christians that one potentially harmful nuance is that sacrifice is preferable to standing up for self in all cases.
Just a musing. I hope it doesn't offend anyone. I do go to Christian church (although as you may be able to tell I'm not a fundamentalist by any means and would gladly go to other types of religious services, too. I went to a shabbat service I liked, and would go there; it's just that I grew up christian and like the comfort of what I'm used to. I also meditate and do yoga and believe in a lot of eastern religious tenets, too. So true believers may just find me a religious harlot and not worth worrying about!). For what it's worth I think every religion has its potentially harmful nuance (just different ones).
I guess an interesting thing for those of us who have been victimized and voiceless to ponder is the extent to which we can be humble as well as strong, and do unto others as we would have them do unto us while also demanding a little of the same back from then. Now and again :)
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You sound good Longtire.
How is it going with your D? Has she settled into having a room at your house now?
I'm going to repeat what you said earlier...
I agreed because I wanted to be able to tell my daughter that I had tried EVERYTHING.
I still don’t understand. Maybe it’s me, I don’t have children, but can you tell me why? Why would you sort of want to be accountable to your daughter about your marriage?
I ask because I’ve seen two divorces with my parents and to be honest, I didn’t want to be involved. Do you see what I mean? I’m thinking about your D here, or trying to.
Take it easy with the reading Long. Overloading is easy.
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Hey Portia,
I don't want to answer for longtire, but I do understand his point. I also think it might be harder to understand for someone who has not been a parent. I, too, felt it was very necessary for my children to see that I had given every effort possible to keep our family together. I think that response is two-sided. One side says that when I took my vows before God, I meant them and would not easily walk away from them. That I placed a very high priority on the happiness of the family, not just on myself. That even when faced with all the truths of my exh's lies and deception, I was willing to try to work through it for the sake of the family. The other side is that I felt I needed to set an example of the value and importance of entering into marriage and that it is something that you do not easily forsake. I would certainly have been justified in walking away as he was the one to break the marriage covenant, but the kids needed to see how deeply I felt the commitment.
Most of my motivation for trying to stay together was to save them the pain of having their family come apart and all that goes along with that. I still worry about the long-term effects of divorce on them, but they are mostly adults now and I need to worry more about me now and just support them as best I can.
I'm not saying that any of this is necessarily healthy or right, but if you are a parent who takes that job seriously, it is very hard not to put the opinions, feelings, and concerns of your children before your own. Ultimately, it is not their life, but their lives are affected by the decisions parents make at some level forever more, so it is understandable.
Sorry to intrude.
Brigid
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Hi all:
Just throwing my opinion in here, for the sake of another view of things. For me, I felt I made the decision to marry my children's father and when the marriage was no longer tolerable.....it was my responsibility to make the decision to end it. I did not want my kids to feel the weight of that decision, or any guilt over it being made.
What is better for children? Living in an unhappy home, where their parents are displaying the exact opposite of what a good, loving, reciprical relationship should be, or....living with one parent/visiting the other/or whatnot...where both parents are happier and demonstrating how to live a good, loving and peaceful life?
Tough decision....if things aren't truly nasty/destructive/unbearable. For me, it was easy....once I faced the reality of it. I did offer to try marriage counselling but my ex refused. What was left?
Once separated.....I could see that my children were indeed happier, more relaxed, opening up more and I was too and a better parent for feeling better all around. I waited a year before divorcing. I think that was....just in case there was some major turn around and to dispel any possibility of reuniting with my ex. Each person will do things in their own time, I think.
But the main thing for me......was not allowing my kids to think they had any hand in the failure or disolving of the marriage. That's not their stuff....it's mine and my ex's.
(I do understand that people wish to make it clear their desire to "save" the family and do all possible to reconcile, if that is a possibility. But....if there is no "family" to save....we are simply in denial if we pretend there is one. In our case, there was a marriage licence and children with a disfunctional/uncomfortable/upsetting parental relationship to tip-toe around/view/block out somehow. They were much better off once that was gone and so were their parents).
Brigid, I don't think one has to be a parent to understand what is and is not good for children. I think one has only to have common sense and a desire to understand (maybe a few personal experiences.....as a child.....or even caring for the children of others..as an adult...and seeing how they react to different situations..and reading can help us learn too). I think it was very honourable of you to do all possible to keep your family together because you probably thought it was best for everyone. You meant your vows and did not walk away easily, which is also admirable. I meant mine too and it was hard to admit that my ex....did not. So the question started out as: can one person keep vows while the other doesn't? The sake of the family is the big question isn't it?
If there is a family, that is. In my case....it was a mother, children, and a disruptive father. He spent more time with his kids, once we were separated, than he ever did when we were married. His goal in marriage seemed to be.....to be the most obnoxious hotel guest born....and he did a great job of it too!! It's a tough call for anyone to make. The best I can suggest is Longtire--take your time and make a decision you are comfortable with, have thought through well, and can live with. Then, there will be no need for your daughter to agree or disagree. It's not her decision to make.
Take care ((((all))))
Sela
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Well, this issue seems to have brought up a lot for people. :) Let me see if I can better explain where I was coming from, at least.
I'll start at the end. Today I believe that there is no way for me to "fix" or even tolerate this relationship. It cannot be saved except by miracle(s) and I'm not asking or holding my breath for one.
At the time, more than a year ago now, I wanted to be able to look my D in the eye and telr her with no reservations on my part that I had tried my best to make things work out with her mother. My expectation is that my D wants a home with both parents in it, with the unspoken assumption that she wanted us to get along also. We had the first, but the second wasn't happening at all. I wanted to do this for my D, not to make her responsibile in any way for my decisions and behavior. If there was any chance that my W and I could work things out and provide that happy home together for my D, then I wanted to find out. Well, I did. :oops: I wasn't necessarily trying to keep the family together, but trying to find out whether there was any hope at all. I was still coming out of my brain fog, so you'll just have to accept that I was NOT thinking clearly at the time, and THAT is a huge understatement. :shock: It is clear to me now that there never was a relationship of marriage or even caring between S and I. She used me right from the start and I didn't have the ability to discern it until recently.
As for Christianity promoting these ideas... I don't think that was the case. In this case it was me totally projecting all kinds of my old crap onto God/Religion as a way to avoid really delving into it and dealing with both God AND my stuff. I was not only projecting "no divorce," but ALL kinds of other generalizations about people, the world and the universe. Sheesh, I'm generally pretty aware but this was a real long dive off the shallow end for me. I absolutely had all the wrong ideas. It seems likely to me that a lot of other people might be doing the same projecting onto God/Religion for much the same reasons. The good news is that I realized that God has been trying to tell me that he didn't support this marriage for a very long time by not answering any of my prayers to "fix' it. Now that I know what to (not) listen for, I'll be much more aware from now on.
One of the things that I was projecting was that I was somehow not worthy or good enough to deserve (positive) attention, caring, blessings, happiness, etc. What crap! That was all my parents' messages. It was never me! That is why I was so confused growing up, because their messages didn't fit with what I knew inherently. For the first time in my life, I really believe that I deserve good things, and that I will have all those good things. I don't have to be perfect or struggle mightily just to "earn" a few crumbs. Still, old habits die hard and it will take some time to really get used to this new way of seeing myself.
I've been down some tonight. I had made tentative plans to have supper with my D tonight, but she hasn't been returning my calls the last coupld of days. There is still a part of my old brain that jumps in with all types of terrible scenarios, but I am fighting it by reminding myself that none of those things has ever actually happened and that I trust my D and my relationship with her. In the current situation, the thing that comes up most often is that her mother is subtly feeding her "plausibly deniable" criticism of me. I'll remind myself of the trust as many times as I need to. If I'm still here and trying then I'm obviously more stubborn than that old part of my mind. :twisted:
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Longtire, I think you are very brave. Part of taking this step was facing nights like this and I think you are handling all of it with grace and understanding and lots of self-insight. I can confirm that you deserve the best :) Keep believing that. I'm sorry anyone led to believe otherwise.
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longtire,
Not too long from now, your daughter will move out so you can't sacrifice everything to her. She'll be gone, living her own life. Your job is to role model how an adult makes decisions and creates a decent life without being a bastard about it. You're fulfilling that role model. You are a grown man, someone who is strong and taking care of himself, in her eyes. She probably takes that for granted and will come to you when her generous nature trumps the selfish nature. When I was her age, the last person I gave a thought to was my father!I seriously doubt your wife can make inroads into the foundation that's already there.
bunny
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Hi Longtire,
I lived with my step-father and mother from a young age and saw my father every weekend.
My mother was always anti my father. Subtly, she let me know ‘everything’ was my father’s fault.
I didn’t buy this crap, even at a young age. Say age 7. I pretended to go along with it (to appease mummy and remain loved myself), but I didn’t believe her. Why should I? I had my own brain and my own opinions of my father. As far as I could see, he wasn’t the awful man she made him out to be! He was my ‘real Dad’ and that’s all that mattered to me. You can’t decide not to have a Dad, so you accept your Dad.
And what mattered most of all, even later at age 16, was how he treated me, right then, in the present. What had happened in the past between him and my mother, or him and me, didn’t matter. At 16 the present is most important. At 16 the future and the world await us and we’re preparing to make our mark. We’re not thinking about our parents, we want them to be there to support us when we need them. If we’re healthy, we take it for granted that they don’t need us.
Teenagers are pretty selfish! They need to be because otherwise life would simply be too frightening at that age. Your daughter will come to you as soon as she needs you Longtire.
PS. Hi Brigid and Sela. Thanks for your posts. I sometimes wonder too about not having my own children and being able to empathise with parents. But I sure can empathise with children. Which is kind of why I don’t have any. I’m only just about capable now of being a parent and even then, it’s the most exhausting, demanding, 24/7 job there is. Okay it has the ultimate rewards too. But wow, the responsibility, the commitment necessary, the unselfishness, the financial costs! I guess it helps that I’m fairly commitment-phobic? Anyway, it’s academic now, there’s no way I could be age 60 and have a 17 year old offspring, not as a first child. It wouldn’t be fair, on either of us! Not forgetting…..I might have to have sex to get pregnant! :shock: :DRuns away…. :arrow:
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Hi Portia,
I don't think you have to be a parent to empathize with the struggles of raising children as long as you have some memory of your own growing up years. What I do think is hard to imagine, is the lengths to which you will go to protect and defend your child. I certainly never thought I was capable of being that protective of another human being while I was still childless. Obviously, there are parents on either end of the spectrum who either don't give a rat's behind about their kids, or those who will do anything to save their child--including things which are not in their best interest. It is sometimes hard to find the right balance and step in when necessary and step out when necessary. Everyone will screw up now and then.
I might have to have sex to get pregnant
Not necessarily, but that is kind of the fun part of the whole equation. :wink:
Brigid
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longtire
I thought this would be of interest to you from Richard 21CP 'Tears and Healing'
"Marriage is a mutual promise. When one spouse completely fails in keeping the vows, it puts the other in an impossible position. Even the Catholic Church, bastion of conservative thought, acknowledges that when spousal behavior is absent, so is the marriage. Not everyone will support this approach, but loving people will. We each need to find some people like that – people who can support our choices to make changes and try to build a loving and love-filled life. For those of you who are Christian, remember, He never asked you to be perfect; he knew we could not be. He only asked that you believe.]
Staying to be “Faithful”
We of course feel a sense of obligation to our spouses, and to those with whom we have long-term intimate relationships without marriage. Our wedding vows promise to love until death do we part. Our culture encourages us to think of marriage as something that can be lifelong; that should be lifelong.
There are two problems with this fairy tale approach to marriage, and both of them work to lock us in even when the marriage is literally tearing us apart:
The first problem with these ideas is that they don’t take into account that marriage must be a two-way process. The idea that each partner is committed to love and care for the other no matter what is just not realistic. Some mountains are just too high to climb. We are human beings, and we have a right to depend on some commitment to us, just as our partners have that right.
We cannot force ourselves to continue on in a relationship in which we suffer trying to meet our partners’ seemingly endless needs, yet our partners are unable or unwilling to help us meet ours. A relationship cannot work if it becomes predominantly a one-way process.
The second problem this causes is that we fail to realize that our spouses must be first and foremost responsible for themselves. We allow ourselves to be trapped in the idea that we must be responsible for what our spouses do and what might happen to them. The truth is that we can never be responsible for another adult, nor should we try to be.
Our spouses must own their problems. They must bear the consequences of their own choices. They must suffer the pain of their own illnesses. This is not our burden to bear. I stayed with my wife through a time where I knew full well that I hated the relationship, needed more for myself, and saw no hope. Yet I thought she would die if I left her, and that her death would be my responsibility.
Ultimately, she almost did die even though I stayed with her. But it was never my burden to keep her alive. It was not my job to enable her to live with her pain and her illness even while she avoided trying to heal. I sickened myself and her by taking that on.
We must allow our spouses to own their own lives, their own behaviors, and the consequences of those."
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Hi Mati! Good post! A few comments on ye old institution! I was raised Catholic- " recovered" nicely!! Before I continue, let me say I in no way am slamming the church- I think people have the right to pursue whatever faith/beliefs work for them. I ended a marriage at a very young age because of incompatability and I didn't want to be a parent at 19. The church required me to then pay $2000.00 to Rome- no less! and the pope signed the anulment paper- to " erase" my marriage from the proverbial books! Also still belief that divorce is wrong and God doesn't exactly approve! Lots of priests still reinforce that once you've made your bed- so to speak!- you lie in it. There are allegedly heavenly rewards for " sacrificing" yourself in a bad marriage- the ever popular martyr concept. I'll close by saying also that the concept of romantic love is relatively new- 17th century. And I don't believe ANY relationship is ever " 50/50". I also don't believe in " unconditional" love- unless we're talking children and animals!. All adult love and other relationships have conditions. Otherwise all of us here would be total doormats and " unconditionally" accept all abuse and betrayal. I can't sacrifice myself by " unconditionally" loving someone who is a pathological liar, steals, is a substance abuser, an adulterer etc.
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Mati, thanks for the reminder. I've read and reviewed "Tears and Healing" several times over the last several months and it has been a real help. I read this book before I even (consciously) realized that my wife had BoPD!
I'm hanging in there for my daughter. It hurts sometimes, but that is nothing new to being a parent. I'll be there for her when she needs me. In the meantime, I'll be living my life and showing her how a healthy adult makes decisions and lives their life with joy. :D
I got an EMail from my wife after about six weeks without. She is asking about exchanging mail and, GASP!, each of us getting more money! :shock: The joint account has been building a surplus, so I'll probably go along with it at this point. I'm working to get myself a backup credit card, and once that is done will have my checks deposited into my own account and only transfer funds to the "joint" account to cover bills, etc. I expect that I'll tell her that I want the divorce and would like to save money by working most of it out between us rather than giving it to the lawyers. I say expect because of my ping pong ball experiences in the past, but I am not feeling like that will be as much of a problem since I have worked through a lot of stuff since then. I'll see if we can work things out between us, but won't be the least bit shocked if that opens the floodgates of projection. Who knows, maybe she is just waiting for me to say I want a divorce so that I'm the "bad guy" and she can claim victim status while letting loose on me. I'm not exactly looking forward to that, but AM looking forward to being legally single again.
Oh, and Portia, I also agree that having been a child yourself, you can understand and empathize with parents. :) I hope that in talking with my daughter that she now sees how much happier I am and I can "blame" her mother for that! :D Seriously, one of the things that I will not do is badmouth her mother. It is important to me that my daughter feel like she has full access to her mother to the extent she wants it without feeling like I make that realtionship more difficult.