Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Mati on July 17, 2005, 04:10:24 PM
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Hi all
There has been a crisis back at the cesspit :D (abode of nH, nson).
nH was taking the dog for a walk late at night and having crossed a bypass (highway?) he let the dog off the lead, just before entering a gate leading to a wood. Instead of the dog running off to the woody area, it turned around and ran back accross the road and was hit by a 4X4 at 70mph. It is a miracle but, even though it was thrown up in the air, it has escaped with no broken bones or damage, only shock.
However, the three (nson nH and normal but brainwashed son) are in shock because the driver, although he stopped, was shouting and got back in his car and drove off. Well I can only go by the story I was told, but it seems to me that the guy was very angry indeed with nH for having a dog loose on that road. I am not saying that he was justified in driving off and not taking the dog to the vet, just that I can understand his actions and hold nH responsible for what happened. But here's the thing, none of the three think the same way as me (I did not bother to tell them what I think, I gave that up a long time ago :()
They are very angry with the driver, and seem to hold him totally responsible. None of them seem to think that nH did anything wrong. Sheesh! I just wonder how others see this and whether they think the same way as me.
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I hope they took the dog to the vet. Internal bleeding from blunt trauma injuries can kill, and a vet should check for signs of this since it can be treated... [Sorry - as a critter nut that's my first thought. I'll contemplate who's to blame for what later on ;-) ].
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Yes, your nH was to blame IMO. With that said, it's normal to point fingers at others when in shock, stunned, traumatized, etc., so I cut them a break right after it happens. I hope that later they will acknowledge their part in it.
bunny
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Yes the dog was taken to the vets and spent the night there. He is shaken but fine.
I think that I just mentioned it because it follows the pattern of nH never accepting his responsibility in anything and the boys enabling him. I do not think that he/they will see the drivers side in it and I am sure that he drove off after nH got aggressive with him. In fact I know that it would have been his reaction.
Well I hope that I am wrong and they will show that they have some empathy.
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Hi Mati
Gotta be quick, have to go to work. But... was thinking about this last night [thanks for the update on the pooch, whew] and it occurs to me that this sounds kind of like a classic N-on-N encounter: screaming, flaming, blaming, and of course it's the innocent party that gets hurt.
In other words - that driver was probably just as N as your husband [and son?]. I can't imagine using an argument as a pretext to abandon a possibly injured animal, no matter how obnoxious its owner might be. And I have seen plenty Ns concoct or provoke arguments so they would have an excuse to back out on a commitment, stiff a waiter for a tip, or otherwise duck their legitimate responsibilities. A decent human being would have been horrified at hitting the dog and would have been shaken, concerned, possibly even apologetic. And would have tried to follow up somehow, even if only by contacting the vet.
Uh uh. Sounds like jerks all around, on this one. The only blameless one in all of this is the dog. Who, of course, is the one who got hurt. For just being a dog.
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Hi Stormchild
I think you are right! Yes, the driver must have been an n too.
What is missing in the way nH and the boys see it, is that they blame the driver entirely without seeing that nH and he both behaved irresponsibly. And the innocent dog suffered.
I could see how they develop the victim mentality through incidents like this. All of the parties involved see themselves like this. Yet it was the dog not them who was the victim.
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Hi everybody,
I think we may be going a little rough on the driver here.
The odds of an N who has just irresponsibly let his dog get whacked relating a truthful rendition of events is just about nil.
For all we know the guy was compassionately leaning over the pooch preparing to take him to the vet when Mati's nutburger ex started threatening to sue, punch, castrate or otherwise commit mayhem on the guy.
The one thing I've learned with Ns is, when they're relating a story they were involved in, its invariably 180 degrees off.
More likely, your ex kicked his dog for looking at him wrong, and thought up some grandiose story to avoid responsibility.
mudpup
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I just wonder how others see this and whether they think the same way as me.
Hiya Mati
My own view is that if a person is responsible for an animal, and something happens to that animal, then the responsibility remains with them, unless the car driver drove into the wood, or onto the pavement (sidewalk :))
In this case, your nH took the lead off the dog too soon. End of story.
It is his responsibility for the dog turning and running into the road. The dog shouldn't have run into the road, but cannot be blamed because that is the kind of things dogs do; that is why we put them on leads.
The driver may have been going too fast; we don't know. Your H says it was 70mph, but he would say that even if it were only 30mph. I think that had it been a 70mph impact, the dog would have been killed. Some of our road adverts here say that if a child is hit at 30mph it has an 80% chance of surviving, whereas at 40mph only a 20% chance of surviving. So perhaps we can realistically say the car was probably not doing 70.
The car driver was not a hit and run. He stopped, and he was perfectly right in saying that the dog should not have been loose on the road. But your nH would not accept that, and switched the blame onto the car driver, and showed anger and animosity. At that point, if I had been the driver I would have done what this person did; got back into my car and driven off. I would have been sorry to leave the dog behind, but too afraid of the owner to stick around. I think that is understandable, whether the driver was N or not. (But I suspect an N driver would not have bothered to stop the car.)
I am very pleased the dog is ok, but I don't think the Ns involved will ever admit the truth. They don't know what truth is.
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Hi Mati! What an awful story- hate animals being hurt. I am one of those people who frankly prefer animal and small child company to that of most adults. Am a huge animal lover- have 3 four legged children myself! I wholeheartedly agree with comments that your nH's account of events is not remotely based on the actual events. Ns are incapable of truth and their stories aer always about THEM- your pooch just happened to be the source of N supply. What pity and attention he can get from this. I doubt there even may have been an alleged other driver involved. I feel for our " brainwashed" son- his is likely the only version of truth, but he can never tell. Bottom line- I don't think I would be able to entrust my furry companion to the likes of any N. My ex N had a dog for several years- not because he liked animals, but it was a babe magnet. As soon as his dog developed a medical condition entailing medication for several months, he decided the dog " was too sick...his quality of life was gone...I have to do the right thing". He drove to the vet and left his poor dog in it's carrier outside the door and said " put it down and mail me the bill". Then he milked it for all it was worth again to get attention from women. What a callous- but typical N!!!! I'm really glad your furry friend is recovering- give him/her a biscuit for me!!
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Hi Moira
The dog is not mine. It belongs to my youngest not n son. I would never trust my nH with a dead rat never mind a dog.
Hi October
The story now is that the car was going at least 70 mph and probably 80 but you are right. Some kids were supposed to witness it and saw the speed of the car. And said that the driver was probably drunk.
It sounds more like an n lie than a miracle And you are right that the driver was not hit and run which an n would more likely be than someone who stopped to see how the dog was. Especially as it was dark. I just had not thought of that. He stopped. Then he drove on....so what happened in between. Having seen nH in a rage, I would not blame anyone hotfooting it out of his way.
mudpuppy
yes, it is all starting to sound like a story. So glad I brought it here to get another prospective on it. I still tend to believe what n tells me or tells our sons. Even though i should know not to believe a single word he says.
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Hi Mati
Something else occurred to me today... this is an observation only, and other folks may have had other experiences. But... in my experience...
When an N is faced with a problem their first reaction is to blame someone else and demand to be rescued.
When someone traumatized by Ns is faced with a problem their first reaction, until they heal, is to blame themselves and then try to rescue everyone else.
When someone who is non-N, or has healed from N trauma, is faced with a problem, their first reaction is to look for a solution.
A really abusive N can be an absolute genius at blaming the same person he or she is demanding rescue from.
A really traumatized N survivor can be an absolute genius at always choosing to rescue the most abusive, N person in the room.
And round and round it goes...
I'm glad the accident story was probably fabricated. Do you think the dog even really had to go to the vet?
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Hi Stormy
Thanks so much for that. it is brilliant and I will copy it out and keep it handy. It is so true.
Yes it seems that the dog did spend the night at the vets unless nH managed to construct an extremely complicated deception. My sons believed that the dog was at the vets all night and came home in a very shocked state and I expect they saw the vets bill. This has been a very valuable lesson for me. I have been so trusting in the past, and do not automatically assume someone could be lying. Very naive of me I know. I would never dream of lying to anyone, so have to work hard at living in an alien world.
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Mati - I can relate so well to what you say. And believe me, I'm one of the worst Abusive N Rescue Operations on the planet. Or was. I'm getting better ;-)
I have trouble myself starting from the premise that the other person is a liar, manipulative, etc. We're groomed by our predators to be trusting and open! It makes it so much easier to gut the oyster if its shell is never closed. To this day, I'm stunned when I discover just what manipulative creeps some people are.
And then I pingpong back to the other position and assume that everybody is a lying scheming con artist and there is no one righteous, no, not one. According to some experts, that's not as extreme a position as I wish it were... some estimates are that more than half of people are N to some degree... but it should be possible to believe that, accept it, and go on with your life with your armor in place, without always feeling so bad that things are that way.
When someone finds the recipe for that, post it to me please ;-).
Hugs
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Hi Mati,
Let me modify what I said about Ns and their stories.
Only occasionally are their stories 180 degrees off. That only happens when there are no witnesses to contradict them. That's when you get the real whoppers. Its also a great opportunity for a laugh if there were witnesses they weren't aware of.
Usually its about five to twenty degrees off center; just enough to shift the blame off of the N and/or to make him look either the victim or the hero.
You can't laugh off the 5 to 20 degree ones because they're the ones other people believe. :(
mud
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I still tend to believe what n tells me or tells our sons. Even though i should know not to believe a single word he says.
That is because you are not a liar. :) People who tell the truth think that other people do the same. Ns on the other hand expect everyone around them to lie, and so believe no-one, and think (if they think at all) everyone as hypocritical as themselves. :lol:
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I have trouble myself starting from the premise that the other person is a liar, manipulative, etc. We're groomed by our predators to be trusting and open! It makes it so much easier to gut the oyster if its shell is never closed. To this day, I'm stunned when I discover just what manipulative creeps some people are.
When someone finds the recipe for that, post it to me please ;-).
I think the place I would start from is that Ns do not know the difference between objective truth and objective non-truth, because they have no objectivity. Everything is subjective, and therefore they are incapable of lying (in their own minds) because whatever they say, they actually believe at the point of saying it. They make no attempt to connect their experience with reality, because their experience is reality. And if we see something different, that is our problem. Nothing to do with them.
Just as God created the world by speaking the words 'let there be ...', so the godlike Ns create reality by saying what is real to them, and expect the mortals around to believe them. And it happens that way enough of the time for them to fall for the idea that they can actually create reality, and manipulate truth, to suit themselves.
Lets face it, they are surrounded by people who allow this to happen, with one or two of us black sheep standing looking on, saying 'that is absolute poppycock'. Why should they listen to us while the worshippers remain?
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Stormy
I have trouble myself starting from the premise that the other person is a liar, manipulative, etc.
It is such hard work to have to learn to communicate in a different culture. I found that when I was with him, I started to become careless about what was the truth. It had all become so vague. It was like I was living in a fog. I could never get him to be exact about anything so things just kind of became other-wordly. Did anyone one else feel like this?
some estimates are that more than half of people are N to some degree
That is just too scary.
mudpuppy
Usually its about five to twenty degrees off center; just enough to shift the blame off of the N and/or to make him look either the victim or the hero.
You can't laugh off the 5 to 20 degree ones because they're the ones other people believe.
Yes I have noticed this. Do they do it by instinct or is it a skill they learn do you think?
October
Ns on the other hand expect everyone around them to lie, and so believe no-one, and think (if they think at all) everyone as hypocritical as themselves.
Yes I have noticed this with nH. He did not trust anyone at all. I remember having a disagreement with my brother about this. He got angry when I said that not everyone lies.
They make no attempt to connect their experience with reality, because their experience is reality. And if we see something different, that is our problem. Nothing to do with them.
Just as God created the world by speaking the words 'let there be ...', so the godlike Ns create reality by saying what is real to them, and expect the mortals around to believe them. And it happens that way enough of the time for them to fall for the idea that they can actually create reality, and manipulate truth, to suit themselves.
Lets face it, they are surrounded by people who allow this to happen, with one or two of us black sheep standing looking on, saying 'that is absolute poppycock'. Why should they listen to us while the worshippers remain?
Wow, you guys have an amazing understanding. I have always thought that people can be divided neatly into two types, those who want the truth and those who do not, and this explains why. Are all personailty disorders like this do you think or is it just narcissism?
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I have trouble myself starting from the premise that the other person is a liar, manipulative, etc. We're groomed by our predators to be trusting and open! It makes it so much easier to gut the oyster if its shell is never closed. To this day, I'm stunned when I discover just what manipulative creeps some people are.
And then I pingpong back to the other position and assume that everybody is a lying scheming con artist and there is no one righteous, no, not one. According to some experts, that's not as extreme a position as I wish it were... some estimates are that more than half of people are N to some degree... but it should be possible to believe that, accept it, and go on with your life with your armor in place, without always feeling so bad that things are that way.
A person will tell you about their "issues" through their words and behavior. By observing a person closely, you can tell whether they are manipulative, deceptive, exploitive, and so forth. They usually give off major clues immediately. I think it's a lot about discernment and observation. I don't see any reason to trust someone unless they've earned it.
bunny
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I have always thought that people can be divided neatly into two types, those who want the truth and those who do not, and this explains why. Are all personailty disorders like this do you think or is it just narcissism?
I don't know enough about other personality disorders. I only know about NPD by looking at my family. :lol:
In the outside (non family) world, there are people who seek to know the truth about everyone but themselves, and there are the braver kind, who seek to know the truth about themselves first. Most people here fall into the latter category. :)
Inside my family nobody wants any kind of truth. What they want is the status quo; our family superior to every other family, our behaviour the norm; the benchmark by which everyone else is judged and found wanting. And the Supreme Judge is my mum. There is no awareness of any other reality than this one, and no desire to accept that reality, if it is ever glimpsed. There is too much for them all to lose, including each person's sense of self as part of the whole, because the whole family is so enmeshed that nobody is able to survive alone. I believe that as part of that there is no such thing as individual identity in my family.
I am the most isolated person in the whole family (and the nearest thing to an individual), and I struggle to survive, but I manage. Not well, but I manage. Nobody else is brave enough to even try. They do not commend my struggle. They ignore it and pretend it is not happening. :lol:
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I found this on the Web about a year ago, hurrah it's still there, and I think it's pretty relevant to the discussion at this point. It's about the "Pathological Dishonesty Disease" and how slowly and subtly Ns can weave a web of deception and how easy it is for others to be pulled in.
http://www.amasci.com/maglev/levbill1.html
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Inside my family nobody wants any kind of truth. What they want is the status quo; our family superior to every other family, our behaviour the norm; the benchmark by which everyone else is judged and found wanting. And the Supreme Judge is my mum. There is no awareness of any other reality than this one, and no desire to accept that reality, if it is ever glimpsed.
Are you sure we didn't grow up in the same house? :) I think the only difference I would put if I had written that is "Mom" instead of "Mum". So glad to know that others are struggling with the same thing - it really helps me move away from questioning my own reality and just living in it - as far away from theirs as possible. Thanks for posting this.
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Stromchild, great link. I found this link from that site. This is the best description by far that I have found of the situation with my wife. It hit so close that I cried while reading it. It gets a little confusing, but she is the self-titled "victim" and I am the labelled "victimizer." Talk about twisted thinking... I am glad I am no longer either a vitcim or a target, but getting back to being just a human being again.
http://exploringpersonalitydisorders.1hwy.com/#Victim
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Are you sure we didn't grow up in the same house? :) I think the only difference I would put if I had written that is "Mom" instead of "Mum". So glad to know that others are struggling with the same thing - it really helps me move away from questioning my own reality and just living in it - as far away from theirs as possible. Thanks for posting this.
Some days I am not sure of anything at all. :lol: But if you did grow up in my family, then I am heartily sorry for it. :)
Re what you said about 'mum', my brothers and I have always called her this, but when she signs cards she always puts 'mam', yet we have never ever called her that. How weird is that? Lol!!!!!! Dad uses it too, if he writes from them both, he puts 'mam and dad'. 'Mam' is what they each called their mothers. ('Mam' is a N England variant, whereas we were all brought up in the south, where 'mum' is normal.)
And incidentally, she never puts 'love from'. Just 'from'. Speaks volumes.
They have absolutely no awareness whatever of reality.
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Thanks for that link, Long - and for the thanks ;-) -
Yeah, I recognize waaay too many people in that description too. Some of the pot-stirrers and Ns I work with... as well as my own charmin' mother.
And I'm left shaking my head in amazement, again, that so many people take the bait. Jump onto the malicious slanderer's bandwagon, and never seem to recognize the malice and slander for what they are. They're looking right at it. They could easily see what it really is. They just have to want truth more than the 'fun' of playing 'let's all hate Judy'. Or whoever.
Jeez Louise... how many people ever, emotionally, get out of middle school?
Thanks again, Long. I'm emailing that link to myself at work, and putting it on my bookmarks list at home.
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Oh boy can I relate to this comment:
Quote: When an N is faced with a problem their first reaction is to blame someone else and demand to be rescued.
You bet. I can think of countless examples from 20 years of being with my NXH. Here is one -
Used to live on an 80-acre farm, the majority of which for most of 8 or so years became overgrown field and pasture for NXH's hunting pleasure. NXH decided one day to burn some garden refuse... in the field. I pointed out that it was a windy day and the field quite dry and that NXH ought to recognize (especially being trained as a FIREMAN) that burning in a dry field on a windy day would not be a particularly safe thing to do. (Let alone intelligent) I hoped he'd had the sense to go on to do something else. Nope.
Sure enough, half an hour or so later, there is smoke coming from the field and after a bit I hear angry shouting. Shortly thereafter I find the angry shouting is being directed at me, ordering me to go to the house and get my son (then age 12 or so?) to help put out the field fire NXH had started by choosing to burn trash in a dry field on a windy day. :(
Now frankly, I was not interested in sending my son out to clean up his dad's messes, especially as it occurrs to me that sending a 12 year old to fight a field fire is tantamount to child abuse. I did however, call the fire department out.
My thanks for doing this was to get screamed at for not sending my son out right away and taking so long to call the fire department. Never mind that I explained that it took so long as I did not at first realize what was going on and had not heard him yelling for quite some time. As far as NXH accepting responsibility for his actions, NADA. It was a total accident that the fire got out of control, lol. Apparently even FIRE should know to always obey an N!
Frankly I was so angry with XNH for doing such a stupid thing I would much preferred to let him deal with the natural consequences of his actions ON HIS OWN without my intervention. I only caved as I feared the fire could spread to the neighbors. :(
Ariel