Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: dabeck on July 17, 2005, 10:54:23 PM
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It's been a while since I've posted, lots has happened. Most recently, I am again dealing with my N mother who has once again taken to verbal abuse. But, this time she's calling others to complain, insult and demean me, mainly she calls my father (her ex of over 17 yrs ago). That said, since this is not new (well, she's never involved dad before) I just don't know what to do. She visited a month ago and was abusive the last two days of her visit, disrespecting my home with my husband, getting drunk, spilling wine all over and yelling at me when I dared to disagree with her (no, I didn't argue, I just said, "let's agree to disagree" and that set her off). So far, according to her, I am making all the wrong decisions in my life. In a nutshell, here is what she said about me to my father:
I am a...
1) Pseudo-Intellectual, "Where has all that education gotten her?"
2) selfish person
3) disrepectful person
I don't...
1) know how to love her or anyone else
2) love my husband at all
I..
1) put her down all the time
2) made a mistake by moving to NYC to get another graduate degree
3) don't accept or love my family
4) never loved her
5) promised I'd give her a copy of my book (the one I wrote) and never did, how selfish
Do I confront what she said, ignore her, or wait to see how I feel after the anger and hurt wear off?
Thanks so much for your help.
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Hi dabeck,
Do I confront what she said.......
Waste of time. She won't hear a word you say.
ignore her.......
That's getting closer to my idea.
or wait to see how I feel after the anger and hurt wear off?
Now you're gettin cold again.
Maybe you could consider a fourth option;
change the locks and your phone number.
Are you getting anything from the relationship that is worth that kind of abuse?
If so, grin and bear it.
If not, put her on a slow boat to China and hope it sinks.
Almost undoubtedly she's not going to change, except to get worse. :(
mudpup
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Hi dabeck,
Sorry to hear about your N Mom. I've got one too. :roll:
Recently someone asked me how I'm doing since I completely detatched from her 1 1/2 years ago. I responded by saying that it feels good to be released from the emotional turmoil I experienced as a direct result of that relationship. I'm still dealing with the after effects of being raised by a N - but it is awfully nice to not have any active abusers in my life any longer.
Best wishes to you.
chutzbagirl
p.s. I learn in recovery that if I don't take care of myself...nobody else will.
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Firstly, I'd recommend you try not to focus on what she has been saying to your dad: if she's anything like my Nmother, 90% of what comes out of her mouth is complete **** and not worth giving brainspace to.
Also, I remember a similar incident where my mother came to stay and ended up practically accusing me of having secretly damaged her psion organiser. I argued my innocence for a while, before thinking, why on earth am I even trying to defend myself against spurious accusations from her? I got down to the basics: told her she was staying with me, being taken out by me, why was I having to defend myself against her paranoid accusations when clearly demonstrating my goodwill by I was being hospitable? I told her that if she didn't cut it out she'd being going home immediately, at which I left her in the car to think about it while I popped into a shop.
It worked. When I came out she was like a different person.
Ns are afraid of abandonment. Terrified of it. When I told my mother I'd send her home, I took control (hooray!!) and dangled that magic abandonent card. I know it sounds manipulative, but you have to use strategies that will have a chance with Ns.
Good luck Dabeck.
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Hi dabeck,
From my own experience with my n father and nabling mother, the only way I could have peace was to walk away and cut off all contact. Fortunately, we did not live in the same area, so there was no chance of surprise visits. There were times when I felt some guilt over having done that, but the stress that their presence caused in my life and the abusive behavior my children would have to witness, were not worth it. They are both dead now, but I wish I had made that choice many years before.
I agree with mudpuppy that confrontation is a waste of time. She will never acknowledge any wrongdoing or feel badly about it. If you must maintain contact, learn some coping skills to minimize the stress to you and your family.
I wish you well.
Brigid
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Ah, the joys of the nmother. My two cents:
All the accusations she levels at you are projection. Regardless of whether or not they're true. If they are, it's coincidental, she can't see you as a separate human being. She's speaking from her own emptiness and pain, and trying to make you carry it for her. My nmother did, and still does the same thing. Don't waste your time or energy contemplating the validity of her claims. She 1) likes to hurt you to feel like she exists, 2) projects onto you anything she dislikes about herself.
I agree with the other posters, cutting yourself off from her as much as possible will be the healthiest thing you can do. I also know from personal experience how incredibly difficult this is. Be strong. Rember that anytime you engage her, whether to placate her or argue with her, she's taking energy away from you that you can use to heal yourself. I'm betting she's already gotten enough of your energy for one lifetime. These are things I have to remind myself of daily.
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I am a...
1) Pseudo-Intellectual, "Where has all that education gotten her?"
2) selfish person
3) disrepectful person
I don't...
1) know how to love her or anyone else
2) love my husband at all
I..
1) put her down all the time
2) made a mistake by moving to NYC to get another graduate degree
3) don't accept or love my family
4) never loved her
5) promised I'd give her a copy of my book (the one I wrote) and never did, how selfish
I think I would do my very best not to react. :?
This would be very difficult, in the face of such accusations, but they say more about her than about you. For example, what is a pseudo-intellectual? Someone who pretends to be an intellectual but actually is not? Does that mean that your qualifications are actually fakes, or that they are fakes to her? And what is better, a graduation from your actual college or a graduation from your mum's Nschool (which you would never achieve anyway)?
I think it has been said before that to an N anyone looking after themselves in a normal, healthy way, is going to be regarded as selfish. If I go downstairs now, and make myself a cup of tea, and then enjoy it, that is selfish. That is what I was taught. I was taught that the only acceptable behaviour is to make sure everyone in the house - or wider, the whole family - has a cup of tea, and a sandwich, and whatever else, first, and only then am I allowed to make myself one. Which is why at parties I turn automatically into a kind of maid. :? But of course by extension this is never enough. We never finish looking after the others in order to reach the point where looking after ourselves is healthy and good. As long as my Nmum has a single need in the wide world unfulfilled by me, anything I do for myself is necessarily selfish.
I cannot buy clothes while my mum might need clothes. I cannot eat when my mum might be hungry. I cannot gain a further degree when my mum will be made to feel inferior by my success. I cannot be young and attractive while my mother is ageing daily and heading for old age. I cannot be the person I was born to be, while she remains an emotional bonsai. Even thinking about doing any of these things brings guilt and the risk of self sabotage.
If other people allow her to complain to them, then I would leave them to it. It may take a while, but they will learn in the end, with any luck. Meanwhile, tell your dad you are not interested in what she has to say, because it is all nonsense. I think I would consider telling him that if she says anything else, you prefer not to be told about it.
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Bunny said something in reply to my own post about my nfamily that I think is relevant:
The way to enforce boundaries (IMO) is not to "explain" the boundaries (doesn't work) but to simply act them out. <snip> It's all about pavlovian training of these people. Rewards and punishments until they figure out what will fly with you and what won't.
The nparent is weaker than you are, and she needs you far more than you need her. If you stand your ground, she may act out for a while, but I believe she will eventually adapt herself to your terms. A friend of mine recently drew some very strong boundaries with her Nmother, and while she's still being a b**, she is slowly adapting, because she can stand to have that connection severed far less than my friend can. I believe this about my own family as well (when I'm feeling rational).
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I just want to thank everyone who replied to my post. You gave me the insight of your experiences and the encouragement I needed to not do my usual angry reply to my Nmom. Each piece of advice hit home and was well-thought out and positive. I even smiled at a couple of the funnier comments. I will let you know how it turns out.
I did leave out a bit of information that is somewhat relevant to this story, she visited me for a week on June 18-26. The first few days she was good, fun, cheerful. By the middle of her stay she began getting meaner and meaner. While she was here I found out I got the internship at the university I'd been trying to get into, but I was a bit conflicted as I was reminded (however slightly) of how much I missed my previous job and how strange it would be to return to a university setting without all my old friends, faculty and students . Don't get me wrong, I was thrilled to land the internship, but bittersweet as this move to NYC has it's moments of homesickness (I moved here to NYC to get my MLS degree, since you need to Masters to be an academic librarian and I got some scholarship dough making the move worthwhile). She went off on me, "I've never regretted one decision I've made in my life, you should not have ever moved" and "you are just being silly." Personally, when you express your feelings you should not be yelled at. Furthermore, she just continued getting drunk. The next night, she got so drunk she started lying about random things and discounting everything my husband had to say about the Vietnam War (as his father was a pilot in the war, he was just relaying a story and she said, "What does he know?" and, well, being in the war he knew a few things). She returned to our apt to start a fight, spill wine all the way through our apt, down the hallway and into the lobby while wearing nothing but a nightie. So, it was sad, pathetic, and more fighting (her telling me I never loved her and all that jazz). I just responded, "you have a right to your opinion," and "we'll have to agree to disagree." I didn't engage. She, of course, woke up the next morning all perky, like nothing happened and didn't say a word about anything. We don't live in a dorm, for crying out loud, I wonder what the neighbors think, or, if they (or anyone in the lobby ) saw her like that? Crying, drunk, yelling.
Thing is, it bothered my husband so much (more was said than I am relaying as it is a long story) the he chose to write her a letter (email) and sent it off today. Not on my behalf, but on his. New territory but I think he should do what he needs to for himself. He really feels her N behaviour is now coupled with her alcoholic behavior to very self-destructive points.
So, if anyone has an N parent who also drinks, let me know, if you want, how you handle them. For now, I think I'll take your advice and stay the heck away from her. I should take care of myself.
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dabeck,
My nfather was also an alcoholic. My nxfil is also an alcoholic. Where my father is concerned, see my post above. I had to stay away. The drinking only made him more abusive and difficult to be around.
The alcoholism in the case of my xfil is what destroyed his children and created my nxh. The whole family has always chosen to keep it a secret and not talk about it even to each other. Even though he has been through treatment several times, he has nevered recovered. Two of the kids choose to stay away as much as possible and 2 are enmeshed (my xh being one). The enmeshed ones are the most messed up ones.
The more you engage, the worse it will be. Staying away is the best option imo.
Brigid
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Hi dabek! My mother was an alcoholic N and my ex N partner was drug addicted. with regards to my N mother- she was a nightmare. Neither her drinking or her behaviour was ever discussed or acknowledged by anyone in the family except me. Of course I'm the liar! anyway- as soon as I left home, I chose not to have any contact with her or my enabling father. She would often call police with wild stories and accusations so they would track me down. I guess she thought this would make me pick up the phone or drop by. everytime I'd fill the police in and tell them they might consider charging her. Of course never happened. I relented in her old age and attempted to establish some contact out of pity. Foolish mortal on my part!! with age she was much worse with both drinking and Nism. I quickly deep sixed my misplaced pity and went back to my " cold, uncaring, selfish ways". she then escalated to calling me and my sister repeatedly in the middle of the night, drunk, alleging she'd overdosed. I always told her to call an ambulance and when she refused and said she was going to die, I told her I had several black dresses for her funeral- and hung up. My sister, who hated my guts for this " callous behaviour, would always fall for it and show up. Of course she never called 911 either or ever discussed it with anyone else in the family- incl. my father who always slept right through the drama. My family get togethers were always as source of neighbourhood entertainment as they typically involved police and occasionally ambulances. Anyway- curouis to know what the content of your Hs letter to your mom was? You mentioned something about her self destructive behaviour and I would guess- correct me if I'm missing it- he may have been expressing concern about this. Good luck! Destructive behaviour is the only thing Ns know how to do along with abusing. And who cares really what your neighbours think- no reflection on your family. My N mother would perform every time we were out in public and there was alcohol available and loudly abuse people- often remarks about me incl. my sex life- or her version of it and any other intimate detail you can imagine. I'd get up and leave. Of course I was the disruptive one for this! I think most people in my home town knew my mother- incl. every ambulance driver and cop- and I went to school with most of them! A leopard can't change it's spots and Ns can't grow a conscience! your worry and conern will only generate more abuse. The odd occasion now when I interact with my family- funerals only now- I don't speak at all to my N sister or her 2 N daughters- not one word. Neither does my brother. If they attempt to speak to me I turn and walk away. I am quite comfortable with my selfishness!! divorcing N family is difficult however it's the only healthy choice and as I said in ? another thread, I also chose not to associate at all with anyone who believes their lies. I have found contact with these do gooders is as destructive as dealing with the N because they undermine you and keep you connected to your N, thus feeding your self doubt and guilt.
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Well, I must admit, my Nmother pushed me too far and I reacted, for the last time. I am so serious about not falling victim to my anger that I have taken her out of my phone, swearing my spouse not to ever give me her number if I want to contact her when I am angry. For anyone who has been following my story, I have included excerpts out of my (and my husband's) email conversations with her. As of today, we have concluded we have no choice but to cut contact with her as she will never change. Please. let me know if you have any feedback for me on this, either what she said or what I've said. I am open to any and all feedback. If any of what she said sounds familiar, please let me know, I'd like to know how truly N she really is. By the way, my name is Danielle so when I am referenced, you know who (and my mother's name is Cathy and Jon is my husband).
Jon wrote:
Hi Cathy-
Your e-mail provided me with valuable insights regarding your
thoughts and communication style. Thank you for taking your time to respond.
>>>> Honestly, I wasn't going to respond to your e-mail, it was easy
>>>> enough to just ignore it, give up and let what you said cause me to
>>>> be
>>>> bitter. However, I decided to express to you my feelings in a
>>>> respectful manner. I hope we are better people for it.
>>>>
>>>> I ask that you read/listen to my words carefully and thoughtfully
>>>> as
>>>> I did yours. I am putting my time and heart into this and it is one
>>>> of the more difficult things I've had to do as an adult child but
>>>> worth the effort, I feel. Please don't disregard it and by
>>>> extension,
>>>> me. I'm fairly vulnerable here.
>>>>
>>>> We appreciate our parent's role and guidance in the past that is
>>>> why
>>>> this situation is emotionally confusing and challenging to us now as
>>>> adult children. We hear one thing and see another, it is
>>>> inconsistent
>>>> however, we realize none of us is perfect and we can't point
>>>> fingers,
>>>> that is destructive and always has been however, we can express
>>>> ourselves respectfully. We continue to love our parents and care
>>>> about their lives no matter how volatile, without judgement. It is
>>>> difficult for me to hear you question that. I'm trying to figure
>>>> out
>>>> what good that does.
>>>>
>>>> I've included your recent e-mail to me (see below). You told me
>>>> originally you let the past go and don't get angry about it.
>>>> Clearly,
>>>> Cathy, you weren't hones t with me. If you had these feelings 6
>>>> years
>>>> ago it would have been healthy, wise and respectful for you to bring
>>>> them up in a timely manner as opposed to suppressing them until now
>>>> when nothing can be done and it comes out sounding bitter. There is
>>>> absolutely nothing wrong with respectfully expressing your thoughts
>>>> and feelings, especially with your family as I am doing here. Also,
>>>> it is OK to express anger but not judgement. That goes for anyone,
>>>> including you, Danielle, me, my Dad, Shari, my Mom, Claude, Kevin,
>>>> Diane, whoever...
>>>>
>>>> I continue to believe things will change for the better, one way or
>>>> another. My hope in contacting you initially was that I'd better
>>>> understand what occurred and be able to empathize, to grow and be a
>>>> better person to improve my overall relationship you, Danielle, my
>>>> parents, etc. I've addressed my parents the same way when things
>>>> are
>>>> confusing and need clarity. It sometimes has been painful but that
>>>> certainly isn't turning my back to my family, in fact, the complete
>>>> opposite. It shows you are willing to invest your time and heart
>>>> into
>>>> the relationship, not bury your feelings because it is too tough,
>>>> scary or easy. It is both the parent's and the child's
>>>> responsibility
>>>> to invest in a respectful relationship and to not give up. This is
>>>> my
>>>> part. I learned this and it was reinforced while my Dad was in
>>>> treatment for the 2nd, 3rd and 4th time and conintues now. When
>>>> these
>>>> relationships work, there is free flow of feelings and respect, in
>>>> which everyone is richer in the most meaningful way. I've heard
>>>> when
>>>> you die you don't take anything with you but your soul.
>>>>
>>>> If you'd like to have a positive, constructive, respectful dialog
>>>> that attempts to improve the situation I am available. You can call
>>>> me. If you choose to bring up the past in a
>>>> negative,
>>>> destructive, judgemental manner, I am not.
>>>>
>>>> Ultimately, it is up to you how you express yourself. However, if
>>>> you need help, then ask. If you have a question, then ask. If you
>>>> have a thought or feeling, express it without judgement. My hand is
>>>> extended to you as far as it can go right now as a son-in-law and
>>>> as a
>>>> person.
>>>> Cathy, I can only wish for you peace of mind and the time to heal
>>>> your heart.
>>>>
>>>> Respectfully,
She Replied:
You and Danielle have been very fortunate to have the parents you have.
Sent you
>>>> both to college and supported you both in everything you both ever
>>>> wanted
>>>> and loved you unconditionally . Chuck and Sheri your parents and me
>>>> and
>>>> Chuck we all paid for everything and only wanted the best. The
>>>> wedding I
>>>> know your parents paid for more but I do know I made the veil
>>>> happen
>>>> and I
>>>> know I watched it thrown on the floor no dance from you or Danielle
>>>> just
>>>> disappointment that I didn't speak. I sit here tonight looking
>>>> for a
>>>> wedding picture of you both and it doesn't seem to matter to either
>>>> of you
>>>> how your parent's feel. Kayla was your flower girl no picture was
>>>> ever sent
>>>> to them. So Jon don't talk to me about all the wrong that you two
>>>> are
>>>> trying
>>>> to get through with your bad parents we all loved you and our lives
>>>> were
>>>> spent for you both. By the way there is nothing wrong with calling
>>>> your Dad
>>>> on Father's Day I wanted to tell you to call him he was and is a
>>>> good
>>>> Dad
>>>> the only one you will ever have, he maybe sick but man if he had
>>>> cancer
>>>> would you have called him. You can stay out of the Alcholisim stuff
>>>> with him
>>>> but it is ok to let me know how much you love him.
>>>>
>>>> Didn't mean to go on. But will now cut it off to say I really don't
>>>> understand all of this when children are suppose to love there
>>>> parents and
>>>> maybe some don't and this may be what has happened to me with
>>>> Danielle,
>>>> there is nothing I can do anymore except to say I am done. I
>>>> haven't
>>>> slept
>>>> and feel like I am loosing my mind, so I will say if she wants
>>>> nothing to do
>>>> with me than that may be the best for her.
>>>>
>>>> Jon no more response this is to hard and if you two want nothing
>>>> more
>>>> to do
>>>> with family then so be it, but please no more of this.
Then, earlier today....
Dear Jon,
>>>> I am so sorry of the distress you are going through, that by the
>>>> way
>>>> is the reason parent's don't really share in depth of what they are
>>>> feeling, because it is our job to make you the children feel safe
>>>> and
>>>> ok. I won't say to much more except to say you are right when you
>>>> die
>>>> you don't take anything with you but you soul. Jon I am sorry, you
>>>> guys just have to remember to respect your parents my God we are
>>>> people too and I don't think we did that bad of a job. Of course I
>>>> had
>>>> these feelings 6 years ago but as a parent you could not imagine
>>>> such
>>>> a thing happening so of course that could never be communicated
>>>> When
>>>> I moved back to MN no regular contact and maybe the hardest thing
>>>> was
>>>> the phone calls that were not answered or ever returned. Please no
>>>> more of this. Maybe when you two have a child you will understand. A
>>>> parent lives there life for their child and still try's to have a
>>>> career and love .
>>>>
>>>> So my dear know I love you and Danielle with all my heart, but I am
>>>> done explaining myself I really shouldn't have to ,
>>>> I am the Mom here.
>>>>
>>>> All my love,
>>>> Mom
Then to me right afterwards...
Danielle,
>>>> Tell him to stop this has all been so hard I just need it to stop.
>>>> If
>>>> you want to talk sometime in the future , that would be ok but let
>>>> some time pass as right now I am so hurt and don't want to talk.. I
>>>> love you Danielle and always will. Please tell Jon to stop this.
>>>> Love,
>>>> Mom
My reply moments later...
He just wanted to try to strengthen our relationship, sadly, you are
>>> the one that is making this hard. I have nothing more to say on this
>>> matter. If you chose to resolve this or talk in the future, the ball
>>> is in your court as you said to me last friday night that you are
>>> done
>>> with me, now and forever.
>>>
>>> take care,
>>> Danielle
Her reply moments later...
Yes I am sure that is what he was trying to do and I do appreciate,
>> however
>> the subject is also closed to me. What I said that Friday night was I
>> was
>> totally and completely done forever with your degrading comments to
>> me(from
>> the way I eat Bing cherries,not knowing NY baseball team, I'm sure
>> Harrington doesn't want to hear about my prom dresses, to no you
>> can't go on
>> the roof in your robe ect although I never quoted them). I may have
>> worded
>> somewhat differently but that is what I meant.
>>
>> No Danielle if you chose to resolve this or talk in the future the
>> ball is
>> in your court. I won't quote any of the things you said to me over the
>> phone. Your feelings for me were loud and clear.
>>
>> Love,
>> Mom
My final reply (she let me get the last word for the first time)
He just wanted to try to strengthen our relationship, sadly, you are the one that is making this hard. I have nothing more to say on this matter. If you chose to resolve this or talk in the future, the ball is in your court as you said to me last friday night that you are done with me, now and forever.
take care,
Danielle
Then I had to clarify...
I sent this off to quickly, I should've finished my thought. When I say he (meaning Jon) was trying to strengthen our relationship, I meant the one he and I have with you. He was merely trying to understand why you got so upset when you were here to say things (to me) like that I never loved you and that I don't know how to love (and that I don't love him). That, to me, is probably the worst thing(s) you can say to another human being, given that love is fundamental to our society, our lives, our happiness. Say what you will about my education, my future, my personality, my lifestyle, but to say I am unable to love, horrible. He wanted to know why you said those things because I was up half the rest of that night sobbing, he wanted to get to the bottom of why you say such horrible things. No, you are right, you don't "need to explain yourself" any more to me, him or anyone. If that is the type of non-relationship you'd like to have, share pleasantries and what not, so be it. He had hoped to open up a dialogue and get to the bottom of why you'd say those things to me. I told him to do what he wanted as it is his life. Honestly, nothing you can say to me has the power to hurt me anymore. I know I can love, I know that I do. And I know who I love and I don't need to explain myself to you either.
That said, you no longer have the power to enrage me. If you chose to say nasty things behind my back, or accuse me of being an unloving, uncaring person, go right ahead. Right now, in my life, I am proud of my accomplishments and who I am, even if you are not. Right now, I am truly happy.
No one ever accused you of being a bad parent or what not, we just wanted to know what drove your actions when you were here. That is all. You are responsible for bringing up all the past incidences, of which we were unaware of your feelings until now. You can own that side of this, if you so chose.
Take care,
Danielle
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Hi dabek! Very interesting reading the emails between you, your H and your nmother. Wow- so many words all signifying nothing- to your Nmother's point of view. Did she " get it"? Noooooo. Will she ever get it? Nooooo. Will she use your concern to abuse you? Yeeeesss. As you said earlier, at least your H has said his piece. Maybe that's the more important point- he's said it, now it's a fait accompli.Thanks for including all the dialogue. I have to say I'm relieved my N mother has died- funny how most of my sibs were relieved as well. In fact, some of us said at her funeral that it was literally the only family get together we've ever had that was free of fights, abuse etc.- except for my N sister! And I have my N mother to thank in a way as since her death in Feb. it allowed me to see my N as an N- ohmygod!!I'm living with my mother!!! Thanks mom!
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Thanks for your reply, I appreciate it. It makes me feel more normal to have other people agree that she is not communicating, sometimes her nonsense confuses me to the point of giving in out of shear frustration. Not this time. I am also glad that you have been free of this fighting, so looks like you were living my same hell. As my husband said, I need to learn to use this as a lesson safeguarding me against becoming like my Nmother (as your sister has, as your emails indicate). I re-read another book on being a child of an N parent and it scares me to think about how many children of N's become N. I just hope to take all this in and make sure that I never, ever, lean in that direction. Does that ever worry you?
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Hey dabek! Rest assured, you are NOT a N!!!! All of us who have had the " pleasure" of growing up in a N family think about this concept- holy excrement( my French..heehee)- am I one of those?? It often feels that way because Ns behaviours are so crazy making we end up looking like the nutbar- instead of them. I don't know how many times in a therapy session I'll be listening to the family member or partner of a N appearing to be hysterical etc when trying to express their pain. All the while the N sits there like a Cheshire cat relishing the pain and looking like a " normal" person. And of course, THEY'RE EVER SO CONCERNED ABOUT THE OTHER PERSON'S MENTAL HEALTH!!! See doctor, I TOLD YOU, my wife, sister etc is the crazy one, NOT ME. I look at my own behaviour with my recent ex N and am still reeling. I regularly lost control, yelled, screamed, was profane, shoved him and broke things. NEVER in my life have I EVER acted that way. Now with some hindsight, I see no matter how twisted my responses were, they were somewhat adaptive- I had the right to be pissed off, enraged etc by the lies, abuse etc. At that time I too was reduced to behaviour worthy of a 6 year old given that rational adult communication was non existent and impossible with a N. You are a kind loving soul with a heart and a conscience- Ns have none of those qualities- no kindness, no heart, no love, no soul and no conscience. You are a N survivor, not a N. I may sound like a hard ass here, but loving a N- whether relative or partner- is always a losing prospect. A waste of emotion on our parts.
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Thanks for your encouraging words. I really appreciate them as I am constantly concerned that I'll end up like her (see the movie "The Breakfast Club" and I remember feeling that way even then). I would have to agree with you, the way I spoke to her last was in a way I have never spoken to anyone else, with a stern, angry voice demanding she stop hassling the people in my life that love me and stop talking down to them and badmouthing me. She lied about making those calls to my father. She lied about what she said. She lied to my husband about not remembering what she said to me, and then to me said she remembered what I said to her even though she had no memory of what she said to me. Lies, lies and more lies. I think the more lies N's tell, the more times they tell them, they become true, real. Revisionist history.
You would not believe the stuff she says about her own past. Total lies. I never call her on them because what's the point. You were "very involved in the Civil Rights Movement" oh yeah, what did you do? "I did a lot, stuff you will never know about" yet my father, who was married to her at the time, said he never once knew of her going to or doing anything at all around that or her supposed protesting the Vietnam War. My dad, on the other hand, is not a liar, not at all. She comes up with these newly found facts when defending her point of view (her point of view politically, supporting the war, Bush and what not). Interesting. I ask that she and I not discuss politics as this happens regularly, this revisionist history, and I hate listening (and that is all I do, sit on my hands and listen as she talks, once I timed it, she rambled on for two straight hrs, I maybe said one sent and I am NOT exaggerating). So, phew, thanks for your support and insight. Have you experienced this with N's as well? Normally, I find, people who volunteer and stuff don't brag about it. I, myself, never talk about my volunteer stuff and my political activities unless it happens to be interesting to others (i.e, they are also interested in animal rights and other things, but if they are not, and it is known, I don't use my volunteer stuff as a way to strengthen my arguments because that negates why I do what I do). Oh, except when I worked for the Mn Wildlife REhabilitation Ctr because I got to work with lots of very cool animals and they were good stories. :) You would not believe how cute and dog-like foxes are, it was weird. :lol:
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Your mother sounds much like mine in that the overall theme in her relationship with you is that she is superior strictly by having the lofty title of being your MOTHER. You are merely her child, a subordinate to her position. No matter what she does or says to you, you are supposed to always remember that she gave you life, therefore deserves automatic and endless respect and love from you, even when she is unwilling to offer you same respect and love. She's stuck on this and any perceived transgression or disregard toward her position by you makes her think you are a most disrespectful and unloving daughter. Don't know if it's just old school thinking(plus N'ism) or what but in her mind, MOTHER is always right and worthy, her feelings supercede yours.. case closed
Wishing you the best with your dicision.
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Hi again Dabeck! Sorry, I think I've been spelling your name wrong- damn dyslexia! If you look at DSM( diagnostic psychiatric " bible") you'll see that: grandiosity, endless need for attention( negative attention works very nicely with Ns as well- ANYTHING that provides stimulation), pathological lying and confabulation, entitlement, lack of empathy, hypersensitivity to perceived slights, quick to anger, feels everyone is against them, present as " victims", chronic boredom,etc- are all hallmarks of Ns. Also diagnostic that Ns put alot of time and energy into " manufacturing" " evidence" to " prove" their points. There's also no piercing holes in obvious lies- just gears them up more to bombard you with crazy making " facts" and verbal abuse. I've found the only way to shut a N down is to either totally agree with everything they say or , even better, completely ignore them- no reaction at all. Ns cannot tolerate being ignored- that's giving them absolutely NO attention. They love it when you lose it, argue, cry, yell etc- gives them great satisfaction and they enjoy your pain. No reaction takes the wind out of their sails, immobilizes them. Usually after ridiculous accusations, verbal abuse they'll go off and sulk, pout and give you the silent treatment. Hey, that works for me!! My ex N was also a sex addict- a somatic N- and every time I caught him in phone sex( phone bills), had downloaded disgusting porn, having women correspond by email for sex, etc etc- he became enraged I would be making " crazy accusations, YOU"RE the liar etc". This despite having concrete irrefutable proof staring him in the face! I was told I didn't understand emails, how computers work, didn't understand how phone charges worked or how often someone else's charges could end up on my bill, all porn " unsolicited"- despite all emails marked " reply to B."!!! Often when I first expended alot of enery explaining and arguing, I'd finally say" Oh you must be right...I'm obviuosly ignorant and I won't accuse you of things there is absolutely no proof of...i must be paranoid". Now I've left him no avenue of attack because I'm just" confirming" he's correct. Often the reverse psychology techniques work nicely with Ns- just like they do with 4 yr. olds- the emotional age of most Ns. It is amazing what good actor Ns are- for the most part- and how everything out of their mouths is B.S. They don't remember who they've told what to and really don't care. I remember something from an article on Nism I read recently that I like- " The worst weapon Ns possess is their mouths". Says it all. Keep posting and I'm thinking of you.
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Hi again Dabeck! Quick comment- my ex N used to claim he'd " invented" stuff, used to work in Washington " as press secretary for health ? senator( am Canadina so here it would be a minister!), lived in Burma, ran self started companies, knows Hollywood celebrities blah blah!!! My N mother's stories were equally completely untrue but a tad less outlandish! Finally- off topic, sort of!- loved your comments on foxes!!! I have always had a thing for foxes- collected all sorts of animals as a kid- still do, now don't have to hide them from mother! As a kid growing up in Ontario Canada, my family went every summer to cottages in northern Ontario- beautiful semi wilderness place- lots of wild animals. Anyway, there used to be a vixen who every summer had her litter of kits close to the highway waiting for tourists to stop and feed them!! Magic!! I'd love to have a fox now- along with hedgehog, pot bellied pig, goat, skunk( descented! had one as child). Am actually now building the proverbial ark for said animals!!! I do live inte pacific northwest temperate rainforest!!!
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Hello, Dabek, what an interesting thread. You and your husband sound like sane, rational, compassionate and thoughtful people...just the type N's love to annoy!!
Your emails with your mom remind me of the times I forget my exN is incapable of empathy and I try to get him to hear me. My brother tried to "reason" with my ex once. He wrote a heartfelt letter to him on my behalf. I knew it was useless as far as the ex goes, but the thought was nice and I appreciate my brother's intent so much.
Trying to reason with these people is thoroughly and completely frustrating and truly a most vivid example of an act of futility!
That your mom also drinks will multiply her "issues" twenty fold. You know the addage: "never argue with a drunk"? I think that goes for N's as well. The other thing complicating any type of communication with N's is that they LOVE LOVE LOVE conflict. It's attention, isn't it? So your normal, sane attempt to mend a rift meets with absolute insanity and pain!!!
I just came back from vacation visiting my family and fiance, and in particular, my dying mother. One day, I visited her nursing home with my two teenage children and my twenty-something niece. Mind you my mother has 9 children, 22 grandchildren and 4 great grandchildren. So lots of people is not new for her, but in her current state, she became very confused and overwhelmed. It was sad, to say the least to see a formerly vibrant, intelligent woman, now at times barely able to communicate. Anyway, when we left, she apologized for not being "a better host" (she is still so sweet) and her nurse came in to her room. I watched them together from outside the door and realized that my mother was not comforted by the presence of her child/grandchildren as much as her regular nurse, who she would not have given the time of day to in her youth. And it got me thinking about mothers and children.
My mother has her own path. It involved being a mother (in a big way) but it is not everything, really. This importance we seem to place on the biological connection to other people is so interesting and I wonder, if it isn't overrated.
I am deeply connected to my children. I wonder if that will change over time. I wonder if I just got lucky. I see friends and read posts here from people who have such a difficult time because thier parent is basically, bad for them to be around. those people (like your mom) are so wrapped in their own pain, they cannot really function in a healthy way so they spread poison wherever they go.
Why , I wonder, is it so hard to set boundaries in mother/ child relationships ESPECIALLY?
Well, don't quite know if that rambling was particularly helpful, but perhaps you could remember that the mother you wished you had, or the relationship you would prefer to have with her, just isn't in the cards, and then see her like any other "unconnected" person to you....someone you might not want to be around.
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Moira and Mum:
Thanks for your helpful and empathetic replies. I took them both to heart and I will update you on the latest and greatest chapter of this ongoing saga. Well, I took your advice and decided to cease contact with good old mom. I guess, according to her, "the ball was in my court" and it was my job to contact her so I just refused. Did nothing. Nada. Finally, about two weeks ago she left me this rambling vmail (in which she actually sounded, uh, what's that word unfamiliar in her vocabulary, yeah, SOBER). She began the vmail with this disclaimer: "I said I wasn't going to call you first, but then I waited and waited for you to call then decided I hate to." Great. She went on to invite me to visit her in Florida, said she'd pay for my rental car but couldn't pay for my airfare (I am a full time graduate student who moved from Mpls to NYC last year so you could say money is tight). ANYWAY, she said her roomate (she lives with her former boyfriend, or whatever he was, the bought a house together) would be on a trip for a month. So, I would be there to keep her company. Geez, thanks for the advance notice.
I politely emailed her back, very professionally declined her invite due to the onset of fall semester and the well-known fact that extra travel is outside the confines of my current budget. I kept it clear and to the point. She emailed me back, asking me common questions, for the first time asked me about what I am studying in school (I've been at it for a year now) and then went on about this and that to do with herself. I politely replied (as I would to a co-worker) an explaination about school but did not tell her anything personal at all. She replied more about how she was sooooo glad she paid for my undergraduate degree (I am on my second masters now so you could say that was a while ago), and that I would do the same thing for my child someday. Then some other thing about how I failed my spanish proficiency exam (yep, I choked on the oral section, way too nervous) and how she had to pay an extra $1500 in private school courses to ensure I passed it. Yep, I know mom, I was there, remember. I passed the thing. I learned my lesson: when studying a language it is wise not to wait TWO YEARS after your finish your classes to take the exam because you might forget a thing or two. I replied briefly that I hoped she had a good trip back to Minneapolis for the family weeding I was unable to attend and to send my regards. So, I totally ignored her comment. She wrote back more ramblings about how I am the first thing she thinks about when she wakes up and the last thing she thinks about before she goes to bed. I didn't reply to that one. Crazy talk and strange. She sent that one later at night, I would guess she'd had several drinkie treats before she hit the send button.
That was two weeks ago at least (I delete all her emails now in an effort to put her out of my mind). She did go visit my dad in Minneapolis the other day, when she was in town. So now I feel like avoiding talking to him because I really don't want to hear about her. Ugh. At least the drunken, angry phone calls and emails have ceased. She's high on the "I love you" cycle again. For now.
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Good luck with this! It is always a hard balance, figuring out how much contact to have. I can completely relate to your mom using "facts" to bolster her position and to your trying to use reason to counteract her fictions. I do the same thing with my parents, especially my father, over political stuff. They both make things up. For example, my father recently went on and on about how the problems of the country are caused by the democratic congress-- the democrat majority was pressuring Bush to make mistakes. Well-- seems like it might matter to his argument that neither chamber of congress has a dem. majority, right? Nope. It is so hard not to find some evidence for the truth and send it to them, but then they always come up with some answer that is completely off-topic or beside the point-- or they ignore it altogether or deny the original statement. It is the same with things that happen between us-- I will remind them I said/did something, they deny it, and I will find an e-mail confirming my memory and send it to them and it makes no difference. It finally occured to me that their insanity is contagious-- why was I trying to "prove" something when they are not remotely interested in anything besides what they themselves make up? I mean, how dumb is it for me to have to explain who has the majority in congress? But it is infuriating. It was one of the first lessons I learned about N behavior-- to stop expecting it to be logical and to stop treating them like I would treat regular people making regular statements. It's like being through the looking glass-- you cannot expect anything to make sense. I still struggle with it, though. This desire to have things make sense-- it is powerful.
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Good luck dabeck.
looking at your mother's 'communication', it is clearly just a series of ploys to gain control over you by pushing first this button then that one. It is not communication in the proper sense of the word. She just throws out a number of lines to see which one gets a bite. So if you are her prey.....the best thing is not to bite.
Plucky
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Hello,
It was one of the first lessons I learned about N behavior-- to stop expecting it to be logical and to stop treating them like I would treat regular people making regular statements. It's like being through the looking glass-- you cannot expect anything to make sense. I still struggle with it, though. This desire to have things make sense-- it is powerful.
It took me a very long time to realize my Ndad is just so nutty about politics. Yes, it is a powerful thing to desire to acknowledge r-e-a-l-i-t-y. One of the curses of being sane. When I learned to stop reasoning with the irrational, I felt like a whole new person. It is so great to let go of presenting exhibit after exhibit of real life to crazy people. And likewise, I don't feel like I am just going along out of fear anymore either. My perceptions of what is going on has changed and that makes all the difference to me and how I feel.
Dabeck--I have an incredibly difficult relative with BPD. When she opens her mouth, lies and manipulation come out. I have a new word for it: noise.
Your mother is a cause-and-effect person. There is no insight other than what behavior do I need to do to get what I want, which is control over you? The only thing that really puzzles them is when an old technique doesn't work anymore. "gosh, it worked yesterday!"
When I "broke up" with BPD Woman and her H, H came over and was trying to look the sad sack--sent by BPD Woman "you try to get through to her!" and really, I might as well have been sitting at a bar, watching a guy take his pick up lines off index cards. Try one line. Didn't work. Pull out next index card. Didn't work. (He's a very poor actor). I did the equivalent of "hey, here's a last drink for the road and have a nice trip. see ya."
I no longer communicate with them in any way. zip. As for your mother's sunshine mode, it is simply another seduction scene to get you back. As for "the first thing I think of in a.m. and last thing, etc." yuck-pooey! IF you have to reply, say (in kind words of course) to let go and get a life.
If I come into contact with seriously disturbed people in a mild way and they start in with their stuff, I calmly say (or at least think) "we're not doing this" to enforce my boundaries. A different example is my d's classmate who has attachment disorder. She routinely "borrowed" stuff and then broke it. When people caught on and said no, she would get upset. So when she asked anyone in our family to borrow stuff, we would just say no and shrug. She would get upset. And that was that. She has other colorful behavior which I'll save for other topics. :) But I have to say it is way more difficult to stay calm and detached when it is a family member. I tried, but a total break is much easier for me and safer for my kids.
Good luck, and hope this helps. MP
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Dealing with my N mother is like taking baby steps - - - and there's always the taking one step backwards too.
Just when I think I've dealt with the stuff she puts out - she puts out something even more stupid that hooks me into making comments. The best thing I can do it put the phone on mute, and go about doing chores while she continues to hear herself talk! The worst thing to do is to encourage or participate in the discussion.
I think dealing with Nmother's is like a day by day - hour by hour thing. Instead of saying anything - just choke it down and walk away from it all.
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The best thing I can do it put the phone on mute, and go about doing chores while she continues to hear herself talk!
I agree with cat. I keep the phone to my ear so I am say uh-huh now and then and if I think she might have said something important, I ask, 'excuse me what did you just say?". I can see she is baffled by my lack of response and she gets off the phone really quickly these days! What a blessing!
Plucky
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Thank you all for such great advice. I, also, will walk around my apt doing chores and sometimes I also watch TV while talking to her. And, I also will chime in when I think she might have said something worth listening to, but mostly she's content not hearing my say one thing, just listen. It's sad, really, but otherwise I'd never call her as I get so damn frustrated. So, now I never call her, not anymore.
True to form she asked me all these questions about school, like she was oh-so-interested, and then never bothered to call me this week to see how the first week of classes went. I guess not that interested afterall. Figures. The good thing is, not hearing from her makes my life more normal, as it were, and all together much less stressful. Now me and my husband make jokes about her, trying to lighten up my usual mood about her (which in the not-too-distant past was that we/he could not mention her at all). It seems to have helped me let go of some of my anger towards her and realize that despite what I may have believed in the past, nothing I say or do will ever change her. All I can do is create the boundries that I need to stay sane and not to do or say anything I regret later.
The sad thing is, I've had several people close to me urge me to get closer to her as I will feel so horrible and filled with regret when she dies. That seems like an insincere gesture so instead I tell them I get what they're saying and will consider it, but truthfully I'm just being nice. Yes, with other situations with parents I might agree with these people. But, with her it's a life-long issue and as long as we can remain civil and I don't stoop down to her level and engage in her discussions, then I'd have to say I have no regrets.
As for the politics that a couple people above mentioned (arguments/conversations they'd had with their N parent). I just have to laugh. My mother told me this wonderful fictious tale that my husband and I have found to provide us with laughs upon the re-telling time and time again.
Scene: some airport in Florida, bar with tall bar stools, mom is sitting in one tossing back her second bloody mary and there is an empty bar stool next to her. Up walks one service man and one service woman. They order a drink (not sure if it was alcoholic or not, that wasn't mentioned) and wait, standing at the bar, as the bartender pours it. Mom hops off of her stool ("wasn't even a second thought") and turns to them offers them her seat. They protest, ("oh no, we couldn't, they say") but she absolutely insists. They say "Thank you" and she says (and this is when I cannot keep a straight face when I tell the story) while reaching out and gently grabbing the male service person on the arm in a gesture of gratitute, "NO, thank you."
Why is this so funny? Well, if you knew my mom you'd get it but understand, the woman is all about pampering herself and really, she has never so much as considered charity (be it monetary or volunteering). She votes for (gasp) Perot because (and she admits it) she thought he'd be the best candidate to save her her precious money ("I am so sick of govt spending my money on social programs"). Whatever. I hope you laughed too.
Thanks again!
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Hi Dabeck et all!! N parents are sooo delightful aren't they? I left home at 17, put myself through university and then as soon as I graduated I moved across Canada to the West Coast. Good having the Rockies( huge mountain range) between me and my toxic family! When my N mother would call I would simply put the phone down and go do something else. I'd come back later and guess what?- she'd still be nattering on and never appeared to know I wasn't on the other end. Then I'd hang up never having said a word to her! Empowering!!! Your strategies sound very healthy- keep it up!!! No winning with Ns no matter what you do. After she died in Feb. I thought I might feel some sort of guilt, remorse...Noooo! What I felt was relief even though I'd had no relationship with her for years. Since then, though, all sorts of buried childhood memories are surfacing- but amazingly not all of them are horrific. For the first time in my life I now actually have some good memories of her. One of the clearest one is being 6 yrs. old, summer, sitting on the back steps in a lovely garden with fruit trees( farm country) and we were shelling peas and laughing. I can rmember the smells, how sweet the peas stated and my mother was relaxed and affectionate. I now treasure that memory and it helps when I get stuck in the negative and abusive memories. i know lots of people who unfortunately never have anything positive to remember. But, you know, I never thought I did either. Congratulations again Dabeck and I'm sure you'll ace your Spanish exam next time. Definately not a failure on your part! Hugs, Moira
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Moira,
Oh, thanks, I did ace the exam two weeks after I failed the oral section (I only failed that one section because I choked). That was, um, er, 10 yrs ago (yup, it's been 10 yrs since I graduated from college).
Now I have another question for you (and anyone who'd like to weigh in). My mother is on the inside track with knowing about what is going on with my uncle (he is obese, as a result diabetic, and as a result going blind and has to decide how to deal with this (maybe get the stomach surgery that to him would be very, very risky)). Thing is, she told me all this before our last fight and I guess I'm not supposed to know (as it is a sensitive thing). So, typical of my family, I get to be worried and say nothing.
Should I email her for this info or just wait to see what happens? I mean, I have had it so good not talking to her, no drama no worries. The only thing she did was visit my dad when she was in Mpls last and apparently she said nothing to him about me (which I told her if she did, I promised I'd never talk to her again). Still, she's not emailing me so the games continue.
Thanks again for all your help. I'm happy to hear you are at the point of good memories. I am still making fun of the situation with my husband though, at least I can laugh at it.
Smiles,
Danielle