Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: rjtal29 on July 27, 2005, 04:40:22 PM
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I'm not quite sure how to use this forum but I've wanted to do this for a long time.
I have a narcissistic ex and joint custody with him with 3 children, ages 12, 10 and 9 and I am desperately trying to prevent them from being damaged from their father. Unfortunately we have joint custody b/c I was too stressed during our divorce to fight and just wanted the divorce. This was the only way to get him to cooperate. It's amazing that someone who has been diagnosed with this disorder would be allowed to have ANY custody but it has happened! I would love to speak with other people about this because dealing with him is a constant struggle in my life!!! He is so difficult to communicate with and constantly tries to demean me and make me look like a bad mother. He has accused me of almost everything, including abusing my children. Unfortunately, most therapists don't understand the depth of Narcissism and how destructive it can be.
Rebecca
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Hi rjtal29,
I was fortunate not to have kids with my XN, but I just wanted to say I fully understand your distress at having this man have joint custody. The N I was with has 5 children with two other women and I have seen first hand how he manipulates and uses the kids to make the Xs lives a living hell. Found out all you can, a great place to start is with Dr. Sam Vaknin, I'm sure there was a link to dealing with the N in court, which included child custody issues. Hope this is of help.
Kilrum
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Thanks for the response. I have already read a lot of Sam Vaknin's stuff, it helped me during the divorce. I just wish there was more hands advice and techniques on how to diffuse my ex's insults and controlling behavior.
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Dear rjtal29,
I just wanted to say welcome. I share custody with my xnh, but my children are 17 and 20 so it is really not an issue and he has very little involvement in their lives. I think many of us would disagree with much of what Mr. Vaknin says, but you will find many kindred spirits among the posters on this site who can help you navigate through the bs with your x and help your children to cope. I don't envy your plight.
Blessings,
Brigid
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Hi Rjtal29:
Welcome. :D I'm sorry to hear that you have had such a rough go of it and are still having to deal with such a tricky situation. :( Some day, the kids will be grown and you won't have to communicate with him much, if at all! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: Start planning the party now!!! It won't be thaaaaaaaat long (they grow up so fast!).
For now, though....I'd say do whatever possible to keep things as amicable as you can with their ding dong dad. :D The children have to live with him half of the time and they're the people getting the rawest end of the stick. If you can think of it as you might say.....dealing with one of their teachers.....(more accurately a crappy, nasty teacher)....it might be easier to get the job done. After all, if they had a crappy, nasty teacher, you might not want to agrivate him/her as it could make their lives tougher at school, right? So how would you deal with that teacher? I'd probably try not to sweat the small stuff and tread carefully but firmly and as sweetly as possible in regard to the stuff that was really important. Without doing hand stands or flip flops, I bet it's possible to minimize communicating with this dorky dad and not mince too many words, when you must. :wink:
Have you tried writing or emailing? Just wondering if it might be possible sometimes and help to think about what you want to say....give time to cool your reactions before replying??? Even the telephone is handy because you can always hang up quick, if the need arises.
I'd say some good things to the children about their father and certainly not express much else to them in the form of criticism of their father. They are stuck in the middle. As they get older, they'll decide for themselves anyway. If they feel comfortable expressing their feelings to you and you are available to listen, that will likely be the very best thing you can do to help them deal with their dynamo dad. ( :D)
It's not easy but if you can find a way to interact peacefully with him, the children will benefit by not having to feel the strain of yucky discussions and their parent's emotions. If you can train yourself NOT to react to his craziness, manipulations, etc....you will be my new heroine and well on your way to doing the very best you possibly can, in a situation that is not very nice at all.
Hope this helps even a little.
:D Sela
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Thank you for your advice. I read some of your other responses and you are very intuitive. I don't know your story, but you obviously understand the dynamics of narcissism and how it affects the family.
I agree with you about trying to be as amicable as possible, but he does everything to prevent that and then of course blames me for being argumentative. He LIVES for the argument and will do anything to try to pull me in. We only speak via the telephone and as little as possible, although in our marital settlement we agreed to only communicate through e-mail. It lasted for a short time until he started to send me obnoxious monologues and berate me about my motherhood, etc. Then he just wouldn't answer my emails, and now, as far as I know, he no longer has a working computer!
My biggest concern is that he is now trying to prevent my children from doing activities for their self-development. He claims that it is all about me and my selfish desires. I put my youngest in Karate to help him control his anger and gain some self discipline and my oldest is a very talented singer and was the lead in a big show last year. I signed him up for voice lessons and he wants to be in a musical again this year. My ex is trying to manipulate my children to not do these things and he almost succeeded!! I just can't believe that he can be such a jerk!! It's a frustrating experience but I will defiinitely take your advice and try not to react because I think that is really the smartest thing. He LOVES it when I react, it makes him feel alive.
The one good thing is that I am remarried to a reallly great man who is a wonderful role model to my children. I feel really lucky that I was given another chance b/c I had no desire to get remarried after my divorce. There is hope!
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Wow, reading your posts describes my ex to a T. He does everything you say your ex does. I have just had a baby with him (long story - see post on "Baby is Here - now what") and he is being awful. As you say it is all about the fight for him. The only thing that seems to have any impact on him is to ignore him as much as possible. He has said I am schizophrenic and abusive. I just say "I dispute that". There is no point (as you know) trying to enter into discussion with him as he does not listen. He is incapable of listening. I really do think that pretending none of it affects you is the only thing that will get to him. No matter what he says or does, just respond in a calm manner. Almost as if you cannot hear the bad things. My ex sent me a text the other day with a load of rubbish on it, plus one question on how our son is. I ignored the crap and sent back "He is fine. Growing well." Nothing more.
I also know how hard it is not to say things to your children, especially if he is coming out with blatent lies. Just try and say things to them such as "Well, I don't agree with that. " Don't try and defend your position or give your side. Just disagree and leave it. (Very, very hard to do!). That way, as people aboive have said, your children will form their own opinion. It wouldn't be fair to them for you to add to the nastiness that their father is perpetuating. This means you have to be a far bigger person than he is, but then you are normal, so that shouldn't be hard!
Take care, I hope it gets easier. I find that I have to repeat a mantra some days "I am a good mother, I am a good mother,... he is a raving loon, he is a raving loon ...." Just to get through it all! Good luck!
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Rjtal29
I will tell you to hang in there. I think with your children's ages they will have their situation with their dad all figured out before long. Keep them informed about what an N is, as you learn they are text book, what you read about most N's they are a lot alike. If you can understand more they will learn from you, and like you how to deal with the N's difficult ways.
I might buy some ear plugs when your around your N. Make alot of loud noise so you don't have to listen to the crazy talk. Ignore what they say, like he's a little old senile man. Don't expect him to achieve his father role for you or the kids. He will not have but little pieces of what a father should be, so be glad for those little pieces. Move on to find good role models. Do the Duck, weave, and Bob his attacks.
The children will have a big lesson in forgiveness from you, because the dad will not teach forgivness.
He may hold on to each hurt causing his hateful heart towards most people he is in contact with.
I have a 12 yr old and going thru the big D too.
I have to go to work ..............hope this helps a little..............OR
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Thank you to everyone for responding! It is so comforting to know that there are others in the world who can relate to what I am going through. Most of my friends are married to normal, nice men and can't really understand what dealing with this kind of person is like. Although they do have a lot of sympathy for me b/c they do know him and have seen his foolish actions.
I have noticed that many people don't even know what narcissism is because it is soooooo hard to explain unless you have actually lived it. The double talk, patholigical lying, verbal abuse, unresponsiveness, I could go on and on and on.
My biggest regret is agreeing to joint custody with this man, but unfortunately I was in a vulnerable state of mind at the time and didn't think I had any other options. If anyone has any experience with changing custody arrangements, I would like to hear about it. I know that it is not an easy thing to do, but I haven't totally ruled it out. It might be the only way to save my children.
I really appreciate all the advice, it truly helps!
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Hi Rjtal29:
Thankyou for the kind complements. That is very generous of you and too much, really.
He LIVES for the argument and will do anything to try to pull me in.
This must be an N trait because it's very popular!!!
So.......the trick then is ......to not let him pull you in, right? You can decide not to let him (not that anything is easy but if you start working at this now.....and keep trying....after awhile.....you will be an expert and it won't seem so difficult!!).
I'm glad you only speak by phone and not too often!! So, he's in violation of your marital agreement eh? And he has no working pc? I bet!!! :evil: As if!! Good excuse though eh?
...he started to send me obnoxious monologues and berate me about my motherhood, etc.
I agree with those who have advised you to ignor his crazy talk. Example of how this could go now:
He says: "You are a crappy mother."
You say: "So what time are you picking the kids up tomorrow?"
He says: "And not only that but you're fat and ugly and you smell bad!"
You say: "Probably the usual eh? 7 pm. Ok then."
He says: "You're a b------- and a c------- and f--------n cow too!"
You say: "There seems to be a problem with our connection. I can't hear what you're saying. I'll have the children ready by 7pm tomorrow. Bye for now."
Hang up and imagine the total and utter confusion on his face. :D :D
He claims that it is all about me and my selfish desires.
More potential examples:
He says: "You only want _______(son) in singing so you can have your selfish need met to see him up on a stage, like some star, to make yourself look like a great mother!!"
You say: "_______(son) is such a good singer isn't he? I bet you're proud of his effort and how well he does when he's performing. I wonder if he gets that from your side of the family?"
He says: "You want _______(son) in karate because it's all about you and your need to have a big, tough, son, so you can look like you you've done this marvelous job of raising him!!"
You say: "_______(son) is learning so many skills in karate that will help him become a responsible adult. I bet you're glad he's trying so hard and putting such a good effort into learning karate. I know it's inconvenient to take him to practice sometimes but I bet you don't mind."
I my experience with these people, if I turn their insults of me into some positive statement about them......they get that ....pathetic.....confused look on their face and it seems to shut them up fairly quick. This may or may not work with your ex. Worth a try maybe???
My ex is trying to manipulate my children to not do these things and he almost succeeded!
I know where you're coming from. This is very frustrating and upsetting. It makes me angry to think about and it makes me want to go over there and hog tie him to a hydro pole and throw paper airplanes at him (complete with my opinions typed inside them)!!! :mrgreen:
However.....this is probably the response he wants. So....don't give it to him. Instead, keep encouraging your children, reminding them of all the benefits of their activities, how proud you are of their involvement in those activities, how glad you are that they enjoy those things, how you look forward to their karate belt exams and muscial performances...etc. You're not manipulating them by encouraging them to participate in stuff they like that will benefit them. I have no qualms with you manipulating him into thinking it's all his talents they've inherited, how good it makes him look, what a great dad he is for taking them to their practices, etc. For your kids.......whatever helps make their lives easier......manipulate away!! Better you than him!!
I just can't believe that he can be such a jerk!!
It's hard to believe any parent would behave like him but he's really not a parent. He's a toddler trying to look like a parent. He hasn't got a clue how to parent or at least.....much desire. :roll:
I will defiinitely take your advice and try not to react because I think that is really the smartest thing. He LOVES it when I react, it makes him feel alive.
Exactly!! Good for you!!! Do your best!! Don't let him push your buttons.....or think what he says has any effect on you. It will take a little bit of practice but you'll get there!! Count to 5 before replying? Take a deep breath? Imagine him in a diaper? Whatever helps you to be cool and calm and adult....will likely help.
I'm so glad to hear that you are happily married now!! That is so wonderful to hear!! Thanks for sharing your hope!! :D :D :D
Sela
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Hi Sela! I really like your dialogue examples of responses to N abuse and provocation. Excellent!!! Gives the old N nothing to work with. As I've said in other thread, I believe completely ignoring all provocative statements and not reacting or acknowledging it all is the best and most effective way to shut them down and make them back off( until the next round eh? Ns have a remarkable inability to learn from past mistakes).
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You all have really great advice and I appreciate it. IT IS SO HARD TO IGNORE WHAT HE SAYS. He knows exactly how to push my buttons and piss me off. I have never felt so much disdain for anyone! I feel the worst for my children who have a father like that and of course, at this point, they think he is a hero and the most wonderful daddy in the world. (Although, they have caught him in several lies recently.)
My new husband keeps telling me not to let him push my buttons but I keep falling into the trap. My husband completely ignores the exN b/c when we first got married the exN threatened him and accused him of abusing my children. The exN even somehow made the kids believe it for a short time which is UNBELIEVABLE. Narcissists are master manipulators... it's scary how people can be brainwashed so easily. I know, I was one of them!
I am so thankful that I have good friends and family (and now this forum)as a support system.
Does anyone know if Narcissists get worse with age or better or stay the same?
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Hi all!! Sorry I didn't note who exactly I'm responding to in terms of question- Do Ns get better or worse with age?. All the research I've done indicates Ns get worse with age, which makes sense considering they now have a lifetime of perfected bitterness, hate, fear and abuse techniques. Also Ns tend to really decompensate when they lose parents- esp. mother, if male N. Besides, after decades of " being misunderstood, taken advantage of, abused...by the whole world" this just cements all their delusional beliefs and abusive behaviour. I'm interested in other's opinions, observations.
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rjtal29
been diagnosed with this disorder
Can you tell about what the courts say regarding his diagnosis.
OR
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Hi Or,
I'm not sure what you mean by that question but when I left my husband, he basicallly freaked out and started accusing me of abusing the children and he was so passionate about his case that even people who knew me and knew that I would never do such a thing, started to believe my ex or at least were beginning to wonder.
We were seeing a Psychologist to try to mediate our divorce and I think even HE was unsure because my ex came up with all these elaborate lies and stories. They were so intense that at one point I STARTED TO DOUBT MYSELF! The Psychologist suggested that we both take a Psychological Evaluation to see what was really going on and that is how my ex got his diagnosis! He was diagnosed with Histrionic Personality Disorder and NPD. It was really a shock for me b/c I was basically in denial, but it was also a BIG RELIEF! It wasn't me who was crazy!
Maybe this will answer your question.... I thought we would be able to use the Psych Eval in court to prove my case and allow me to gain Primary Custody, but it didn't work out that way b/c my ex made everything so difficult. He wouldn't even respond to his own lawyer. The Psychologist and the lawyers convinced me (in my vulnerable state of mind) to just agree to joint custody and get the divorce, because going to trial would be a financial and emotional nightmare. So I had this diagnosis on paper and nothing to do with it except to make myself feel better that I wasn't the crazy one! I have debated many times about whether I will ever show it to my children. I know they are too young now, but you never know in the future, it might come in handy! I'm not sure if I can use it in court now if I decide to fight for Primary custody.
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Hi all:
I'm glad to hear that you're not the "crazy one", Rjtal29!! (I wasn't worried a bit, by the way! :D)
If I were in your situation, I would get some real serious legal advice, from more than one source. You may have a good chance of changing the custody order, at some point. You said your children think their father is the greatest, so that won't really help, right now.
Things can change. Hang in there! Maybe once you fine tune your non-reactions to his nonsense, he'll get very little out of you and having the children around? Or....he may find a new honey to work on? Or....the kids may see him more as he is, as they get a bit older, and form a different opinion? Who knows?
Sela
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I'm not positive, but I would think that if you were to have "new concerns" relating to your ex and his personality disorders then you would have grounds to go back to court and fight for full custody. However, I can't remember the ages of your children, but I seem to remember that they are old enough to have an opinion. Therefore, the court will want to ask them their opinion. If they are happy as they are (whatever your worries) then a court is unlikely to change the arrangements. I know how frustrating that can be, especially when you know how bad your ex is for them. If your children aren't happy with him then you have a really strong case to change the arrangements. If I were you, I would do what the last poster said - get legal advice. Good luck, keep in there!
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RJ, I was thinking the courts knew of the diag for NPD and your EX was given custody.
Histrionic Personality Disorder and NPD
Im not sure what Histrionic PD is ?
Monday, the judge will be looking at an evaluation done 4 yrs ago by WC. he has N and some other abnormal findings. I wondered if having the evaluation helped, but sounds like for you the courts are not aware of this.
My H will not effectively communicate with me, I ask him to respond and I get a buch of crazy talk.
I sent him papers certified mail but he will not pick them up. Monday he may walk into court not knowing I have this evaluation about him because he never picked up the papers.
My H thinks I will be in CA with our 12 yrs old, but I will be on the phone for the hearing, he would have known this too, it was in the papers.
My H not picking up the papers worked out for me, he would have been PIST!, dwelling on the information he would have to deny, so now he will be unprepared. Monday will be intresting!!!!
D has cheer camp this AM, she signs up for her 8th grade class, Im on vacation until the 8th.
got to go .
OR
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Or,
How did you get the courts to look at an evaluation from 4 years ago? Sounds like you could very possibly win your case, just from his lack of response. Don't let him scare you into giving up and settling. That's what I did and I regret it to this day.
I would love to figure out where to get legal advice without going completely broke! My legal bill from my divorce was close to $20,000.00 and I still haven't paid it off. It's also important to find someone who has expertise dealing with personality disorders and custody issues. It's not an easy thing to find unless you have an endless supply of money.
I got some names from Legal Aid at the courthouse for attorneys who work at a discounted rate. We will see if they are any good.
Does anyone have any experience filing motions for contempt? My ex does not follow what's in our Settlement Agreement. He is supposed to split everything with me for the kids 50/50 and he doesn't. He also never returned my belongings after our divorce. My stuff is still in his house (3rd residence after being evicted from the last 2) in boxes from his last move almost a year ago and my children know he has all of my personal belongings, including my baby photos!!!! More than 200 of them! Isn't that sick????????? We have been divorced for 3 years!
I am going to change my screen name to RJ for those of you that need to know.
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Hi Rj:
So sorry your ex is such a creep! Keeping your baby pictures! How juvenile! Like they have any use or meaning to him......only to hurt you, I bet!! Jerk!!
Hopefully, the legal aid lawyers will give you some advice. I totally get the money problem and it's a big one. One thing.....could you do some research into the laws on your own? Up here in Canada, one can file most paper work oneself and deal with the courts alone. It's a scary process but it's better than nothing, if lack of money makes it impossible to hire a lawyer. Judges award custody and make support orders regularly and people get advice from lawyers who work at the court house, called: duty counsel (lawyers take turns acting as duty counsel) Certainly, knowing the information about your legal position could be helpful in deciding if there is a way to make changes? The library should have law books etc. It is time consuming though.
Sela
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RJ,
How did you get the courts to look at an evaluation from 4 years ago?
OSC, (order to show cause ) to keep custody of our D, H wants custody and us to move back to CA.
This is the hearing set for monday. I produced this evaluation along with why I felt I should have custody.
I pray the judge will not throw it out or make lite of it.
The thing about the pictures, my H had a wierd thing about pictures, everytime any pictures ie, school, trips etc, he would take them to his storage place. I asked over and over for him to bring them back to the house I wanted to send our D's school pictures to family, he never would. I did manage to gather some when I moved I had tucked them away, It used to bug me.
He would never put pictures on the wall either, I would hang them up and he would find some reason to take them down. He would move the furniture so the pictures needed to move, but would not hang them back up. I think there must be something with N's and pictures.
We just got back from my D's cheer camp she won a trip to be in the Huston Thanksgiving Parade.
(I have to pay for the trip of course and the hotel stay for 4 days )
She is so happy and won a gold metal.
20 girls got picked our of 200-300 girls, it was very special.
We are going out to get her a specail lunch.
Got to go...........OR
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Hi, R. I have been away, and am just now reading this thread. I, too, have joint custody (I have primary) with an idiot, who (hard to believe) is just like your ex. I am always surprised at how many of them there are....
I know the catch 22 you are in: the one thing (or three!) in your life that you would give your life for....is your children. This is also the one thing that your awful ex and you share...and the one thing that he will use to punish you with. Why? Because you care about your kids. If my ex fell off the earth, the planet would be a much better place....and I wouldn't care a bit, or even notice, because I would no longer have any thing to do with him. But what are we to do? Not care for our children? Rather unlikely!!!
My ex Nidiot takes me to court repeatedly. I wanted to move two years ago (we have been divorced 9 years), and he fought me, even though he travels extensively throughout the world, leaving sometimes for as long as 6 to 8 months (visiting every few a bit). I lost the case to take my kids with me, and lost the appeal as well (or half of it, they reversed part). Anyway, he now has taken me back to court to reduce his child support. He LIVES for negative interaction with me. He has not let go of me one bit. He is remarried, and why his wife puts up with his obsession with bullying me is beyond me (and I don't really care).
Unfortunately, I don't have any Psych testing on him. Oh well. My kids are teenagers, and mostly get what he is all about, but are also intimidated/feel sorry for him....just like I was. However, they are with me mostly, and I am such a different type of person than he is, that it is ALMOST benificial for them to see how a (reasonably) healthy person does life. They will be able to see options now....and it infuriates him to see that they mostly choose to be loving and optimistic, despite his iron fist of negativity and lies.
I was also under duress when I agreed never to leave this county during the original divorce negotiations. He still had such a grip on me psychologically, that I am shocked more judges don't recognize those agreements as temporary anyway. Now, after 2 years and more than an entire years' salary gone to litigation....I don't have a ton of faith in family court. If you go to court, you will spend a lot of money. That's a given. But if I had the kind of paperwork you have on him, and the knowledge of how getting the heck away from him would have improved my life, I would do it in a heartbeat. But the father's rights folks are well heeled, financially, and very dirty players...(a bunch of N's sticking together, I guess), so there is support for fathers NO MATTER WHAT. My ex sees the children as tools/pawns/collateral, all of which makes it tough for us who are so in love with our children we would throw ourselves in front of a train to save them (something these N's really use to thier advatage!!).
So, what to do? Start moving out of the energy between you two. He thrives on it. You will thrive when you get out of it.
Sela and others offered great, concrete advice. Start working on yourself. Start loving yourself first. Let what he does and what he says flow out of your emotions like so much dog feces you don't want to hold!! Just let it all go. Find ways to meditate, read books that bring you peace and to a higher consiousness. Find a therapist who can help you deal with such ongoing attacks (yup, they will keep on going.....and despite appearances toward the contrary, I do not always have a duck's back with this stuff).
Mostly, keep your chin up. Not being still married to this jack*** is the best thing you EVER did for your children. And don't feel TOO sorry for yourself or your kids. This is all part of life, of learning. Some of the best lessons hurt the most. Remember, too, that kids really only need ONE good parent to be ok...and you are it!!!
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However, they are with me mostly, and I am such a different type of person than he is, that it is ALMOST benificial for them to see how a (reasonably) healthy person does life.
Well, that's what I get for writing quickly (or at all) when my 13 year old is in and out of the room. What I meant was that it's almost to thier benefit to have a jerk for a dad, so they can see the difference with a not a jerk mom. Whew. Welcome to my mind!!! I swear I make sense in real life!
But the part of not wanting my daughter to see what I write here, is that other sticky part of co parenting with an a**hole. It's her dad. As much of a low life as he is, she's not going to here it from me. She has a right to form her own decisions. Not that I lie to her (heck no) but let's just say, I bite my tongue a lot (hey maybe that's why I can't write...no wait.....communicate....)