Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Sallying Forth on July 30, 2005, 11:06:51 PM
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I have yet to figure this out. This afternoon I was reading The Narcissistic Family and got triggered by one client's story. Don't know if anyone here has read the book. The client was Caroline and her problem was not getting what she wanted for her birthdays. It stemmed from her mother's comments when she was a child, "If you have to ask for it, it loses its value."
I don't ever remember my mother saying that to me but something in this story and Caroline finally getting what she wants for her birthday really triggered me. I started crying. Then I turned the page and the feelings stopped like turning a light off.
About 6 months ago I confronted my Nm about getting presents for my birthday and Christmas. What prompted this was a strange nightmare I had. She told me that I never knew what I wanted and always changed my mind so she never got me anything until Christmas morning. I would see very little under the tree for me but a lot for everyone else. When I would comment on what I liked that my brothers had then she would send my dad out to get something for me. Now this is when I was much younger, 4 to 10 (???). I don't remember this.
I do remember getting a life size doll (I was probably 4 or 5???) and I was terrified of her. But I had to pretend I wasn't because my Nm thought I should like it. I think that is when the confusion about presents began. I don't know. Rambling ...
My Nm lies a lot so I don't know if she's lying about these incidents or covering up her inadequacies about not really ever knowing me enough to get me something for my birthday or seeing my terrified reaction to the life size doll and not knowing what to do or watching my waning interest in whatever toy she bought or ???
I only know that something in her story triggered me.
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I spent a lot of time with that book when I was reading it because I'd read a page, have all these weird feelings/flashbacks, live with them awhile, read a couple more pages.
If you got the trigger, then there is something to it. Sounds as if your mother was using gift-giving as a way to send power messages and manipulate you. As a child you couldn't understand that, but you knew something was up. Maybe the trigger iis helping you put adult words to what she was doing.
Her story sounds really fishy. For one thing, nothing is open on Christmas so how did anyone go buy you something then?
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"If you have to ask for it, it loses its value."
About 6 months ago I confronted my Nm about getting presents for my birthday and Christmas. What prompted this was a strange nightmare I had. She told me that I never knew what I wanted and always changed my mind so she never got me anything until Christmas morning.
Having an N mother myself, I think I would say that if you go to your mum and ask about Christmas, about the only thing you will learn is how it didn't happen. You will get her fantasy version. My mum is really weird about presents. She wants to be generous, but is in fact very, very mean, and the way she rationalises spending nothing on people she likes, and less on those she doesn't, is very entertaining.
When we were small my uncle and nana used to contribute to 'Santa' presents. We always thought we were very lucky, and we were. If it had been left to my mum we would have got precious little.
I think I would ask your brothers about their memories of Christmas, without telling them why you want to know. There will be distortion because of the passing of time, but you might find where the stories overlap and are likely to be true. And if there are any photos they might help too.
From what you say about your mother's comments, and the likelihood of her projecting, I would hazard a guess (but it is only a guess!!) that she favoured your brothers, and was jealous of you. (You can tell, because if she was then, then she still will be.) For this reason, she bought more for them than she did for you, but would not realise that this had happened until Christmas Day, when it would became apparent that they had a lot, and you had very little. Maybe even nothing at all (because an N can hide behind a small sin, and it takes a whopping big one to reveal them for what they are.)
At this point, the imbalance (and sheer insanity) of the situation would be unwrapped before the whole family, and your mother would immediately put the blame on you, rather than accepting it herself.
The likely result would be anger, aimed at you for being so 'difficult to buy for', and your dad would be packed off the moment the shops were open to buy you anything he could find to try to undo your distress.
At which point a child would be totally confused. There are signals of love, from the concern about no presents, and the apparent concern of the mother to do the right thing for you. But it is all a big lie. A child would not have the ability to unravel this mess, and work out how nasty this mother is. If any of this is true, then the triggering you mention would be totally understandable. I am certain that you asked for particular presents when you were a child. I am equally certain that your mother did not ever listen, make note, and meet any of those wishes.
The life size doll sounds really scarey. I don't think that is where this all started. It is where you begin to remember, but it probably happened for a long time before that, because you had already learned to make sure your response to presents would keep your mother emotionally stable. That takes some learning.
Good luck with finding out more.
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"If you have to ask for it, it loses its value."
About 6 months ago I confronted my Nm about getting presents for my birthday and Christmas. What prompted this was a strange nightmare I had. She told me that I never knew what I wanted and always changed my mind so she never got me anything until Christmas morning.
From what you say about your mother's comments, and the likelihood of her projecting, I would hazard a guess (but it is only a guess!!) that she favoured your brothers, and was jealous of you. (You can tell, because if she was then, then she still will be.) For this reason, she bought more for them than she did for you, but would not realise that this had happened until Christmas Day, when it would became apparent that they had a lot, and you had very little. Maybe even nothing at all (because an N can hide behind a small sin, and it takes a whopping big one to reveal them for what they are.)
At this point, the imbalance (and sheer insanity) of the situation would be unwrapped before the whole family, and your mother would immediately put the blame on you, rather than accepting it herself.
The likely result would be anger, aimed at you for being so 'difficult to buy for', and your dad would be packed off the moment the shops were open to buy you anything he could find to try to undo your distress.
At which point a child would be totally confused. There are signals of love, from the concern about no presents, and the apparent concern of the mother to do the right thing for you. But it is all a big lie. A child would not have the ability to unravel this mess, and work out how nasty this mother is. If any of this is true, then the triggering you mention would be totally understandable. I am certain that you asked for particular presents when you were a child. I am equally certain that your mother did not ever listen, make note, and meet any of those wishes.
The life size doll sounds really scarey. I don't think that is where this all started. It is where you begin to remember, but it probably happened for a long time before that, because you had already learned to make sure your response to presents would keep your mother emotionally stable. That takes some learning.
Good luck with finding out more.
Thanks for your insightful reply October. This part which you said really rings a bell inside me. It goes along with other things which have been coming up lately about a fire I accidently started in my room when I was around 14. Due to smoke damage the entire bathroom and bedroom had to be repainted and wall papered. I wanted it done in purples and violets my favorite colors. My mother told me "your favorite color is pink and that is what you're going to get." I never did get any purples and violets in my room or bathroom.
I always believed I linked pink. However now I realize I like purples and violets. I have lot's purples and violets in clothes. I just bought a new dress which is a deep purple. It's my first dress I've purchased in years.
More than likely she didn't ever ask me for what I wanted for any occasion since I was an extension of her rather than my own person.
Lately I've been using the word "possession" to define my Nm's relationship with me. I was her possession. She possessed me and my life. Creepy. :evil:
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The exN used to say exactly the same thing about everything. In essence if I asked for something or even stated a need, he immediately did not want to do it and the reason was because I asked. You werent allowed to ask for things. He had to come to those conclusions on his own, which of course he never did. In retrospect, the entire relationship was about his needs. He was very vocal, demanding, controlling about getting his needs met. Everybody should feel sorry for him or bow to his wishes all the time, no matter what the circumstances or situation. In a normal relationship, one would consider that eventually it would be "your turn." No so with the narcissist. It was never my turn and he resented me asking. We essentially broke up over his lame Christmas gift. It was just a manifestation of his selfish, self absorbed, self centered way of looking at life. He should get everything he needs, without question, but if I asked, that gave him the perfect reason to deny it. It was and is sick, sick sick!!
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And a cooking variant on the same theme. On a Sunday evening, mum used to make bubble and squeak. This is all the vegetables left from Sunday lunch, fried and served with ham or whatever. One Sunday she was cooking this, and I said to her that I liked best the bits from the bottom, which were brown and crispy. She replied, ok then, if you don't like those bits I'll just give you the rest. Then she never gave me the brown bits again.
That is N love for you. :lol: :lol:
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Lately I've been using the word "possession" to define my Nm's relationship with me. I was her possession. She possessed me and my life. Creepy. :evil:
This is how it feels to me too. My mother also thinks she is a witch, which doesn't help. She isn't a witch, of course, but her awareness of her ability to manipulate people comes out in a belief in supernatural powers (which she is as happy to use for malicious ends as for any others. Happier, really). So she does know, on some level, that she is not the same as other people. And because she says that her mother was a witch too, that gives me a big clue about my Grandma and her behaviour. :lol:
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It's amazing they can be so twisted. Life and love is so simple to a normal person. To be a nar it seems to me to be so much work. You cant just freely do things, give things, express yourself, it has to be all twisted about. Good example is October stating a desire..a very healthy thing to do, and then be punished for it. Yech!!!
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October, your mother thinks she is a witch? In the sense of practicing paganism, or in the sense of being a witch who can cast spells and such? That is so interesting. I guess it is a way for her to proclaim her specialness. Reminds me of the scientologists who have decided they are actually reincarnated superior beings (they have words for it but I don't quite get the jargon).
So classic N!
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October, your mother thinks she is a witch? In the sense of practicing paganism, or in the sense of being a witch who can cast spells and such? That is so interesting. I guess it is a way for her to proclaim her specialness. Reminds me of the scientologists who have decided they are actually reincarnated superior beings (they have words for it but I don't quite get the jargon).
So classic N!
My mother is a highly malevolent being. She is very bitter, very angry, very full of hatred. At the same time, she poses as a mother and grandmother, with all that this entails. She hides behind it, like a cardboard cutout, but if you look closely you can see the nasty creature behind. Most of my family prefer not to look.
She thinks she can put the 'fluence' on people or things. By this she means that with the power of thought she can make things happen that would not otherwise happen. So if someone is going for a job interview she will say, very confidently, 'You will get the job', as if she has inside knowledge. Then, if they do not, she forgets that she said it. If they do, she takes the credit for the 'fluence', and says 'I told you so', and puffs up to twice her normal size. In this way she has built up the idea in her own mind that she can manipulate situations, and bend events to her will.
Invariably, when she talks about this, I make fun of it. I say, don't be silly, or you are pretending to be the wicked witch of the west again, are you. I don't ever let her think I believe it for one single moment. If I saw her riding a broomstick across the sky, I would say, come down you dozy bat and stop messing around.
She does not involve herself with other witches, or with any organisation, (because she is superior to them, I would imagine; they are just playing, she is the real authentic object.) She is a sad, powerless, old woman, except when we - the people who love her (God help us all!!) - allow her to have too much influence over what we do, in order to keep the peace, and keep her happy. Mostly, I stay away, and my daughter is learning to do the same. Mostly, my brothers and their families are enmeshed.
A t told me once that in one sense my mum is right, and that she is a witch. She can make things happen by wanting them to. She is highly manipulative, and she never, ever asks for anything. She has trained my dad to mindread, and made him thoroughly unhappy in the process, but he seems to be content with it now. To me, watching them, when I know she wants something and is manoeuvering towards it without being direct, it is bizarre the level of blindness and denial that exists.
I imagine my mum is very disappointed that I do not follow the family line of witchiness. She has no idea of my spiritual side, or my religious beliefs, because they are too important to allow her to pollute. I reject completely the idea of me manipulating people, nature or God to do what I want just because I want it. (However nice that would be :lol: ) and stick with the Christian view that it is up to God to direct, and us to do the best we can with whatever we have.
Which is why I am a sad disappointment to her, and she can sigh and make disappointed noises to everyone about what a heartless, sadistic daughter she has, and what a martyr she is to not disown me completely. And because of the cardboard cutout mother figure they believe it, without a shred of evidence of real love or compassion or maternal instinct from her. Bizarre.
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You werent allowed to ask for things. He had to come to those conclusions on his own, which of course he never did. In retrospect, the entire relationship was about his needs.
Thanks for this bliz. That hits the nail on the head! :wink:
I wasn't allowed to ask for A-N-Y-T-H-I-N-G period. My Nm had to be the one to figure it out. She couldn't and she still can't. UGH!
The most vivid recollection of this was me wanting my room painted in purples. She insisted that my favorite color is pink and that is the color I would get.
If it had been her idea ... it might have been done. But I have my doubts on that too. My Nbio father's favorite color was purple and I believe that is also the reason she disallowed it.
I've always liked pink and purple. Of course now I understand why.
And I do really like purple ... :)
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And a cooking variant on the same theme. On a Sunday evening, mum used to make bubble and squeak. This is all the vegetables left from Sunday lunch, fried and served with ham or whatever. One Sunday she was cooking this, and I said to her that I liked best the bits from the bottom, which were brown and crispy. She replied, ok then, if you don't like those bits I'll just give you the rest. Then she never gave me the brown bits again.
That is N love for you. :lol: :lol:
A former Nfriend did something similar to her step-son. He complained about having to do all the cleanup in the family business while his Nmother sat around watching and directing him. She told him we don't have to give you anything but shelter, clothing and food. Her punishment was to feed him all the foods he hated for two weeks.
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Hello Sallying forth,
She told him we don't have to give you anything
Yep, that's an N all right. The key words are "have to". Ugh. Can't they ever want to? Guess not.
Just my two cents. MP
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To Sallyforth,
Glad I hit the nail on the head. TOo bad it couldnt be on the head of the Nar. It took me so long to figure out it was all about his needs. I thought I was being the dutiful bf by understanding his "dilemnas" and being empathetic. Way down the road I figured out I was not getting that in return. It is almost like an invalidation of feelings, which I feel is very prevalent in the nar famly and relationship. "No, you dont like pink or purple." "I will only serve you the foods, your hate." Over time we forget what our true feelings, needs, desires, are, becuase we have been told so many times what they are and are not. The true lesson for us, I believe, is reconnecting with our own feelings, desires, needs, etc., and being able to clearly feel and state those, especially when under pressure.
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I have a question for all of you with those horror stories (that's what they seem to me) about growing up with an N parent.
If your other non N/non co dependent parent (if there was one, or we could pretend there was one) had divorced that N, and you were then in a situation of seeing two households, one ruled by an N and one by a fairly normal person, do you think things would have turned out different?
Rather overtly, I am wondering about my own kids, my own situation.
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Yes mum, most definately.... if my dad had left my n mom and taken us kids, he would have saved us so much pain. Even though he is codependent, he still would have saved us pain. There would have been a safe place and even though she could have still played the games, we would have had a break.
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OMG, yes. My Dad was not perfect but he definitely would have been a good parent, or, as I now call it, the "good enough" parent. He was a nice guy and he liked me! He drank a lot but was never abusive to me. Actually he was quite jolly when he drank. I did trust him. As a parent now, I feel regret about having my girls grow up with a totally absorbed father who never really wanted them and only showed off the "golden one". The other two were invisible to him. And now, when I get maudling, I moan that I was a bad mother and they roll their eyes and say no, you were a good mother. Dad was the A&$#le. So maybe we're breaking the cycle at last! I don't know that things would have been different. I think they would have. I would have had a lot more confidence and self-esteem. Somedays, I get this feeling I could have been a "contender". Fortunately, I had a neighbor family hover over me. They could see what was going on and helped me to grow with them being really great role models. Bit
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If your other non N/non co dependent parent (if there was one, or we could pretend there was one) had divorced that N, and you were then in a situation of seeing two households, one ruled by an N and one by a fairly normal person, do you think things would have turned out different?
Rather overtly, I am wondering about my own kids, my own situation.
This one might not be too comforting, but I think if my dad had divorced my Nmum, we would have gone with her, and been worse off than with him around. On the other hand, if we had stayed with dad, I am certain he would have found another Nwife. He was never normal. He was always a co looking for an N.
The only hope for the children in the scenario you describe is if the NonN parent acquires some form of self knowledge, imo, to enable the cycle to be broken.
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Mum:
I was 14 when my nonN father left my N mother. After six months of living alone with her, and with no small help from my therapist (which, ironically, I had begun to see because of the psychosomatic ulcer I had developed due to my mother's abuse), I made the choice to live with my father.
At that time she was living in a nice house roughly half a mile from my school. My father was living in an apartment with a 45-minute commute to town and a neighbor that spent a significant amount of time blaring something the sounded suspiciously like carnival music. With my mother I had my own bedroom, entertainment room, and bathroom... and never a single moment of privacy that wasn't accompanied by my mother banging on the locked door crying her eyes out. With my father I slept on a leaky air mattress in a room that doubled as a storage space for stained glass... I consider a sliver of glass in my foot every six months adequate payment for finally being able to dance around in my room without the fear of being watched.
Living with my father wasn't, and still isn't, a fairly tale. The years of being married to my mother made him afraid to assert any parental authority and unable to accept criticism. Furthermore, because he had trouble admitting to himself that my mother was as bad as she was, it took six years for him to stop pushing me to make a reconciliation. This all was made doubly hard by the fact that I had a strong case of hero worship regarding my father (he had, after all, given me a place to go). It was devastating to face just how human he was and how deep his scars ran.
The point I am attempting to illustrate through rather babbly means is this:
Living with my dad was hard and hurt like hell on a regular basis. Since I moved in with him I've been forced to deal with my feelings, learn to assert myself, accept other's imperfections, and spot broken glass while attempting to execute an off-balance pirouette.
Living with my mother was physically comfortable and spiritually destructive. Had I stayed with her, I have no doubt that what little strength I still had would have been crushed out of me, along with any chance I had to teach myself to seek peace and happiness.
I can't say it would be the same for everybody. I had a damn good therapist and was both old enough and self-aware enough to know that my house was dangerous. I would like to believe, however, that in a situation with a nonN parent and child who are aware enough to leave an N dynamic, that they will also be able to avoid the brunt of the pain and abuse generated by said dynamic.
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Lyshorathi, thank you for your story. Yhave no idea what your tale has done to empower me in my intention (not going to go into it now, but you have really helped).
After 3 weeks away with me, during which my daughter spoke a lot about missing her dad, we are now back and she had a four night visit with my ex (N). Today (after the usual one transition day of being uptight) my d broke down and cried (about a lot of things) and she brought up how controlling and angry her dad is about a multitude of things.
I never for a second wonder if getting out of that marriage nine years ago was good for my kids, but I have decisions to make about our future and you have helped me a lot.
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I should have added as well, a thanks to all of you who responded to my question. I have so much hope for my kids.
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Hi Mum,
Just wanted to share a little ofmy story. My Ndad is a rageaholic. But I am beginning to wonder if my mother is a "covert N". The reason I wonder is because my father's domineering ways were an advantage as long as it was directed to others outside the home or at us kids. We either deflected or hid. In some ways, I think my father tried to spare us by leaving us alone (neglecting us) because he knew we would just annoy him, you know, by being kids. nuthin in it for him.
Now that my father doesn't have anyone to fight with, my mother is in the crosshairs and wants someone to rescue her (just like my father rescued her years ago from her very dysfunctional family). Thankfully my T has worked with me to get me over the need to feel responsible for other people's feelings, to help in a way that doesn't put me at risk, and basically encourage my mother to cope while not letting her off the hook. In other words, I tell myself she married him, not me. She doesn't need my permission to leave him.
If she had left him earlier though, I still had my N sibling to deal with, whom she adored. She loves a fighter to do the fighting for her. :? All that said, my mother and I are close. that's it for now...MP
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The only hope for the children in the scenario you describe is if the NonN parent acquires some form of self knowledge, imo, to enable the cycle to be broken.
I think this is true in my situation. There would have to be some kind of growth on the part of the NonN parent or they would choose the same situation again. I believe my dad would have picked another N. He was N but the least of the two Ns, if there is such a thing. :lol:
Although here is a twist on that. My step-son grew up with my husband and I. His mother is a N. Who did he marry a N! Eek!
As much growth as my H and I did, that didn't seem to break the cycle. My step-son still married a N! His Nm did a lot of horrible things to him including literal brainwashing! The Nm married a N who is a creeping pedophile and an abuser to the children and the Nm.
I don't know if I have a conclusion for this -- maybe it takes more than breaking the cycle? Maybe it takes absolutely no contact with the children's Nparent? A certain type of personality in a child? No overt abuse? A combination of several things?
During childhood my step-son had therapy for about 5 years and that helped a little. However his meddling Nm constantly tried to undo everything which had helped him. He's in therapy now as an adult after he decided to d his Nwife. They had been married less than a year but lived together for 5 years.