Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Stormchild on August 12, 2005, 09:27:52 AM
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I'm taking a real risk by posting this, but it could be really worthwhile, so I decided to go ahead.
I have noticed that from time to time we [me too] get triggered by things here, and the feathers fly, and feelings get hurt, and people disappear, sometimes briefly and sometimes permanently.
That really bothers me, because the whole point of this place is supposed to be to provide a sanctuary in which healing can occur. Of course, I've taken it in the teeth a fair amount, and I've also unintentionally provoked or upset people, and on a couple of occasions I've done my best to give as good as I get. So it's reasonable that I'd feel a close personal interest :roll: - but I've also seen others severely retraumatized - by people doing exactly what they've been begged not to do - and people in pain totally ignored, and so on and so on.
I know that most recovery-oriented thinking says I should leave all this alone and just focus on myself... but, umm, isn't that advocating denial, when I'm part of and contributing to the problem? Seems so to me. So I have been bad, and have been doing a LOT of thinking about this, and a lot of digging around in various books and sites.
What I have come up with is SHAME.
I think we all know that narcissists' whole existence is focused on avoiding all shame at all costs. The constant demanding of attention and applause and the neverending emotional vampirism we experience from them seems often to be designed to keep them from ever really being still, ever really being alone with themselves. Keep that distraction going at all costs!
Why would someone want that kind of deliberately ADD'd life? Well, maybe because if they had no option but to be alone with themselves, even for a second, they would see things they just can't bear to see.
Someone, I wish I remember who, has come up with the concept of 'bypassed shame' to explain a lot of what makes narcissists tick. But even when it's bypassed, something has to happen with it.
My contention is that Ns either broadcast shame indiscriminately everywhere [when they aren't subtle Ns, or when they get too old to be bothered with subtlety anymore] or they selectively dump it on specific targets. Within the family, this will be the 'black sheep' or scapegoated child, or it will be the spouse. Outside the family, it will be their waiter, their secretary, the doctor's receptionist, or the designated scapegoat employee.
So... targets of Ns, we who have had the dump trucks pouring loads of shame on our heads - from one source, from multiple sources, or from a series of similar sources over the years... what do we do with this shame?
We can internalize it, and become terribly terribly depressed.
We can deny it... and become terribly terribly furious at Stormchild for writing such a post, for example...
We can get Stockholm Syndromed, and without being really aware of it, become conduits of shame ourselves, dumping it on others in turn when we've reached our limit of endurance, and some last tiny thing sets us off. [Does this one sound familiar? Yeah, I thought it might. Me too, with bells on.]
Or we can TRANSCEND it.
Yeah, right. How do we do that?
Well... not by denying its existence, or its impact, or our having been damaged by it, or our previous non-constructive responses to it.
Not by blaming the N, or our therapist, or, ahem, the person who posted about it.
But by facing it. And grieving it. And seeing how we, who have been so shamed and harmed, may have been used by narcissism - without our conscious knowledge or consent - to pass that shame on to others. To see that we who have been wounded can also wound. To understand that 'hurt people hurt people', as someone else memorably put it.
Then what?
Well... I guess we would start by admitting this to ourselves, first. Then maybe we would talk about it with our therapists. Then we might sit down with a strong cup of coffee - or green tea :-) - or hot chocolate :-D and face it, face what was done to us, face how we in turn have - again without intent - passed on shame and thus hurt, to others. And become aware of it, and become determined to take whatever steps we can, to try with all our heart and soul and mind and strength - not to shame others destructively, whatever our provocation.
This is the way of the Buddha, and of Gandhi, and of Christ. I'm not saying it's easy. It's the hardest thing in all human living, I think. And please, I'm not saying I've made it there. God no. I'm standing in a swamp, with muck up over my knees, looking at the distant mountaintops... but the clouds have lifted, and I can see them, and they are real, and by God, I'm going to get there if it takes the rest of my living days.
I guess I'd better start, then, huh? OK. Here goes.
To everyone I have shamed here, either thoughtlessly or with a barbed response to anything said to me, I apologize with my whole heart.
To everyone I have thought badly of, to everyone to whom I have ascribed motives that were less than the best as though this was a conscious choice that they were making and aiming at me, to everyone I have blamed and rejected in my heart... I apologize; and to those who have hurt me, I will do my best to extend genuine forgiveness.
I can't promise perfection, and I can't even promise total honesty, but I can promise that I will do my best to be honest, and do my best to be either constructive or totally silent, from this point on.
And if this post sets anyone off, and if we get another donnybrook going because of it, then to those who feel hurt, or threatened, by anything I've said here, I am also truly sorry.
Thanks all. I hope this does some good.
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I'm taking a real risk by posting this, but it could be really worthwhile, so I decided to go ahead.
I have noticed that from time to time we [me too] get triggered by things here, and the feathers fly, and feelings get hurt, and people disappear, sometimes briefly and sometimes permanently.
Thanks, Stormy. I agree with you; shame is a big issue with me too, and I can be destructive of others at times. I try not to be, but it does happen. Perhaps less here than in other places, though.
Meanwhile, I am ashamed of how I look, how I behave, what I say or don't say; ashamed of not being the same as the 'others'.
At the same time I know that all of that shame does not really belong to me; it is like an inheritance that came to me, that I really don't want but am not sure how to get rid of. Like inheriting a dilapidated old mansion; everyone says how interesting and historic, but really when you get close it is riddled with dry rot and mildew, and you know that absolutely nobody would willingly live there if they hadn't inherited it, and had to repair the damage before they could sell it and move on with the rest of their life.
That is how I feel. I want to close the door and walk away, but I have this responsibility to repair the dry rot, and restore this building (me) to what it was meant to be, before the neglect and the abuse and the plain cruelty of the former owners.
And yes, I do get angry with other people, for not understanding, for not caring, for giving up too soon, when I have no choice to give up. I get angry when people offer something, and then take it away again. I get angry when people tell me that my x is not dying, when they haven't seen him for 10 years, just so they don't have to bother caring about me and my d, and how we are. I get angry about a lot of things, some of them unreasonable, I know, because I get tired, and then I get ratty.
Not sure where this is going. Too tired to work it out. :? Anyway, just some thoughts.
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((((((((((October))))))))))
You are a brave and honest soul, and what amazes me most is that you strive for that honesty no matter what your emotional state may be.
This is a link to one of the neglected classics of old science fiction, but it isn't really science fiction. It's a parable of faith and love, old-fashioned, a bit mannered, but sweet, and it's called: "The Lady Who Sailed The Soul". For some reason, I really identify with her interplanetary voyage, alone and fraught with pain -- but somehow also not alone, with a world to win at the end of it all. I think you might too.
http://www.planetary.org/solarsailcd/smith.htm
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Stormy,
I am currently in a dilemma about something close to this subject, so I'd appreciate your input. I had a old friend visit recently (she was the maid of honor in my wedding) who was left by her husband for another woman 9 1/2 years ago. We had not seen each other for four years, have only exchanged Christmas cards and occasional e-mails since then, so had a lot of catching up to do. As I listened to her discuss all the various decisions she has made regarding her personal life and the lives of her four children, I could not help becoming very frustrated and somewhat judgmental about the decisions that I would consider poor at best. She desperately wants to have another commited relationship, but has ended up with several men over the last 9 years who are clearly personality disordered and have made her life miserable.
I feel that because I have had what I consider a very excellent therapeutic experience, I like to share with others the benefits I have received from that. In most cases, I just share information that I have gotten during therapy, but in her case, I really felt it was my duty to say some things that could really get her to take a close look at her life and the decisions she is making.
I have felt badly about that since she left and I'm not sure if I should apologize or try to stay firm with her in the hopes that I may get through to her, at least to the extent of her considering some other options. I care about her a great deal and want desperately for her to be happy, but don't see that as possible with the current track she is on.
Am I "shame-dumping" or just trying to be a good friend (or only imagining that I am trying to be a friend)? Am I not being a good friend by not just nodding along and being supportive of whatever she chooses to do? She has been in therapy for years, but I did suggest that she might want to find herself a new therapist as she is not making much progress. Where is the line between hitting someone upside the head with a 2x4 and just being a good listener? How do you know which is the better choice? I really am struggling with this.
Brigid
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Oh God, Brigid, I wish I knew!!!!!! ((((((((((Brigid))))))))))
I can tell you what is beginning to look like it might work for me, and I'm sorry about all that fancy-dancing but honestly I've just started to really work on this where I need to the most, so I don't have a lot of results yet.
So what I am trying to do now is set aside some of the ways I have been doing things since I have been so hurt, and try to remember how I used to do things before, when I was more hopeful, then build on that.
Love is the antidote to shame... I can remember that, now.
There are loving ways to confront... there are loving ways to provide information without confronting... there are loving ways to support because it's too early even to provide information... there are loving ways to loose and bless when it's too painful even to be in contact with someone. There are even loving ways to withdraw from someone because staying 'with' them only hurts you, and doesn't help them... once long ago I was actually able to figure this stuff out, but not so much lately.
Maybe you could follow up with your friend with some kind of loving contact and offer support, let her know you care and have been thinking about her and think you might have given her a bit more feedback in one sitting than you meant to, see if she has any thoughts or responses, start a dialog, that kind of thing?
We can't be superhumans, the best we can do is to do the best we can at the time. And loving someone doesn't mean enabling them or taking responsibility that ought to be theirs... But I think, I hope, that if we are willing to do and give our best, from love - then that intention helps us do better than we otherwise could. And love can definitely feel frustrated and want to shake someone till their teeth rattle... any mother of teens knows that one :-)
Mum can probably explain this much better than I can, because this seems to be the path she is following and she's way ahead of me, if I'm right about that. But I hope this makes some kind of sense in the meantime.
and I do know what it feels like... I have a friend who is being terribly used by someone, it's obvious to everyone but her, and it's making me totally nuts that I can't figure out how to get the point across... and then I remember that it's not my point to make, it's she who must figure this out... I didn't cause it, I don't control it, I cannot cure it... all I can do is offer to hold her coat, and gently answer questions, if she reaches the point of asking them and I think I have useful answers to any of them when she does. :?
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Congratulations Stormy on your new growth. I tend to think of this board as a pure place where people come together to support each other and offer others the best of themselves. for no reason other than to help. When skirmishes happen I just withdraw because it is too upsetting. Some people are very vulnerable up here, and I am glad you are proposing a more adult way for us all to treat each other.
I would not get my hopes up too high. Some of us have a lot of raw pain still to get through, and nowhere else to let things out. But for me, I will try to uphold these values you are suggesting.
Plucky
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Hi Plucky!
Wow... I hope nobody is going to feel shamed by this thread... that would be irony beyond irony. I know the topic of shame is terribly emotionally charged no matter how carefully we handle it. That's the whole reason it has such power over us, I would guess.
That being said, wow again, your response is really brave. ((((((((((Plucky))))))))))
hope this helps... Hugs again,
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Great topic!!
Trying to feel and express our feelings, especially under pressure, is a very tough for we who have been shamed or otherwise told our feelings, thoughts, dreams, were invalid. All those pent up feelings and emotions. It is difficult to get them out sometimes without scorching a few souls. But we must keep trying because numbing our feelings and throttling our voice doesnt work either.
My only thought on Stormy's original post was there has to be some middle ground between constructive input here and total silence. Dont make it so hard on yourself. We are all trying to heal. There will be starts and stops and sputters along the way. As long as you arent heaping shame on another psoter, my feeling is just keep trying to feel and express yourself as quickly as possible after the feeling hits.
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Healing is a long process, especially after years of denial. Post traumatic . . . when you are in the abuse, you can't believe it's happening. You deny it, push it away, make it better, blame yourself. Fix it and think that love will conquer all.
When you start healing, you start reliving the trauma to understand from an objective point of view that "you" were actually in it. That you were abused, over and over, suffered and muddled your miserable way through it. Years later, you say to yourself, I was not happy.
Find your strength again. Be strong and take your power back. Nobody deserves psycho, mental, physical, ambient abuse. If it's bad, then leave it. Don't waste your time trying to combat it.
Narcissism is blame. The blame everyone except themselves. We all have narcissistic traits, good, bad, healthy, unhealthy. We all know what is right and wrong. We know children from adults. A narcissist is a child. Act like an adult.
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Hi, Stormy and everyone--
One thing that would help me a lot is if folks wouldn't withdraw, but would address what is bothering them. I've noticed since I've been reading these threads that sometimes people do disappear, and then sometimes reappear saying they were hurt or upset or don't want to risk posting again. I know that Stormy has had that experience.
This kind of thing triggers something in me because my mother used to refuse to say what was bothering her, but would make really general statements about being hurt and about how we were not nice to her, etc. Then we would play twenty questions trying to figure out what we did. Usually we couldn't figure it out and sometimes we could and it was a really simple thing that could have been cleared up easily.
So, I guess, a request? Instead of general posts about being upset, let's try to be specific with each other when it happens? I remember one time I made mudpuppy really mad by implying that politically liberal people were more open and loving than other people. I hadn't meant to imply that, but I definitely did in my post. We had a nice open discussion about it, very pointed-- he really disagreed with me. And I disagreed with some of what he said. But it worked out fine, in fact better than fine, because we got to know each other better. And I learned to be a little more careful!
Growing up with N's we weren't allowed our own feelings and opinions. When we expressed them we got lots of anger, or denial, or just outright odd behavior. So of course this is our biggest bugaboo-- dealing with conflict. I for one would like to know if someone is upset by what I've said (written). I don't think that just because they are upset that I was necessarily out of line-- it's a dance. But I'd like to at least know-- and be able to explain myself. I think that would be useful for all of us, if we can do it.
Without becoming some horrible est confrontation group, of course :)
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Hi Stormy,
Thanks for the words of support. I know many of the things I said to her resulted from having made many of the same bad decisions of my own in the past. The difference is, that I hope I have learned something from those decisions--but only combined with therapy can I now make better ones. Without the therapy, I would have continued to follow the same track. As I said before, she has had therapy for a much longer time than I, but she doesn't seem to be making any significant improvements. I also think I felt the pressure of having such a short amount of time together and not having the luxury of working into things slowly. I don't know--maybe I'm just making excuses for myself.
Anyway, my intentions were certainly honorable (I think), but at the end of the day she is an adult who has to make her own decisions and live with the consequences. I worry mainly about her children, but they, too, are not my responsibility. The upside to all of this is, I can look at my own progress and be happy with that.
Vunil,
I agree that if there are things said by someone that are hurtful or upsetting, it is best to confront the situation directly at the time. I think most of us are pretty sympathetic and forgiving and can understand certain issues being sensitive. But also some issues can be a hot button for certain people and they may need to release those emotions here where they should feel safe to do so as long as they are not personally attacking any individual.
Hugs,
Brigid
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Brigid--
I can really relate to your situation. I have some friends who seem really stuck in the same issue, for years, and it is so difficult to know what to do-- does it make sense to try to help them? Can people ever really help each other in that way? I think they can-- two years ago I was really in a spiral of anxiety about whether to have a kid on my own. I was stuck as stuck could be, and had been for some time. I was having the same conversation with people over and over again, and in my head as well, cycle upon cycle. A really close friend told me that I was filled with anxiety and depression and needed to seek out some meds, and then decide once and for all what to do. She said I couldn't make a good decision with my brain all muddled. It was a long conversation! I couldn't believe she was saying that to me. But she carefully explained that she herself had been in a similar place (over a different but similar issue) and she patiently answered my questions (the usual ones about doesn't this mean I'm crazy and what if the drugs change my personality and is this a cop out to do this instead of "working on it myself" etc).
In the end she was right. She really saved my life. I may have figured it out on my own, but I doubt it. She will come visit me in December when my baby will be a few months old :)
So what does this story mean? Do we try to save people? I am pretty firm with people on this board sometimes with my advice-- just because that tone works with me. But is it appropriate? I never know. For me, it helps when I am truly stuck to have someone tell me. For others, it may just induce shame and feelings of rejection to do that. And there is always projection to watch out for-- when I think of myself doing some of the things I did in my past I want to tell myself very bluntly to cut it out. So I probably have those feelings when I see other people doing those same things. It's a silly way to feel, as if I know what they are going through and what they need to do to get out of it. Or is it? This is a balance that therapists must really grapple with a lot.
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all righty now stormchild...
first off some thoughts on shame and guilt...
my own and googles :)
later off or on ... pasted here be the beginning of the thread
perhaps not in its entirety
or maybe again first off
rules of engagement of topics..
uh i mean suggestions..
first always be totally serious without any levity .. :)
then consider ifn u have a good definition of major concepts
of topic
and whether you just wanna run with the feelings
and not let the facts interfer :)
with gettin in touch with the emotions or feelings .... from some other source..
ok here be merriam on shame
1 a : a painful emotion caused by consciousness of guilt, shortcoming, or impropriety
now merriam on guilty
1 : the fact of having committed a breach of conduct especially violating law and involving a penalty; broadly : guilty conduct
2 a : the state of one who has committed an offense especially consciously b : feelings of culpability especially for imagined offenses or from a sense of inadequacy
HMMMM ABOVE WHERE IT SAYS FOR GUILT IN DEFINITION 1 that it minimally is a breach of conduct IT DOESNT SAY IF IT IS OTHERS CODE OF CONDUCT OR ONE'S OWN AND IT COULD WELL BE FOLLOWING OTHERS CODES OF CONDUCT COULD MAKE ONE GUILTY IN TERMS OF ONE'S OWN CODE OF CONDUCT AND THUS NOT FEEL ASHAMED FOR BREACHING SUCH A CODE OF CONDUCT....
...SO HAVING LAID A WONDERFUL BASIS FOR BETTER CLARIFICATION OF ISSUES...
I SHALL RETIRE TO MY GNOSTIC IVORY TOWER FOR THE MOMENT :)
I'm taking a real risk by posting this, but it could be really worthwhile, so I decided to go ahead.
I have noticed that from time to time we [me too] get triggered by things here, and the feathers fly, and feelings get hurt, and people disappear, sometimes briefly and sometimes permanently.
That really bothers me, because the whole point of this place is supposed to be to provide a sanctuary in which healing can occur. Of course, I've taken it in the teeth a fair amount, and I've also unintentionally provoked or upset people, and on a couple of occasions I've done my best to give as good as I get. So it's reasonable that I'd feel a close personal interest :roll: - but I've also seen others severely retraumatized - by people doing exactly what they've been begged not to do - and people in pain totally ignored, and so on and so on.
I know that most recovery-oriented thinking says I should leave all this alone and just focus on myself... but, umm, isn't that advocating denial, when I'm part of and contributing to the problem? Seems so to me. So I have been bad, and have been doing a LOT of thinking about this, and a lot of digging around in various books and sites.
What I have come up with is SHAME.
I think we all know that narcissists' whole existence is focused on avoiding all shame at all costs. The constant demanding of attention and applause and the neverending emotional vampirism we experience from them seems often to be designed to keep them from ever really being still, ever really being alone with themselves. Keep that distraction going at all costs!
Why would someone want that kind of deliberately ADD'd life? Well, maybe because if they had no option but to be alone with themselves, even for a second, they would see things they just can't bear to see.
Someone, I wish I remember who, has come up with the concept of 'bypassed shame' to explain a lot of what makes narcissists tick. But even when it's bypassed, something has to happen with it.
My contention is that Ns either broadcast shame indiscriminately everywhere [when they aren't subtle Ns, or when they get too old to be bothered with subtlety anymore] or they selectively dump it on specific targets. Within the family, this will be the 'black sheep' or scapegoated child, or it will be the spouse. Outside the family, it will be their waiter, their secretary, the doctor's receptionist, or the designated scapegoat employee.
So... targets of Ns, we who have had the dump trucks pouring loads of shame on our heads - from one source, from multiple sources, or from a series of similar sources over the years... what do we do with this shame?
We can internalize it, and become terribly terribly depressed.
We can deny it... and become terribly terribly furious at Stormchild for writing such a post, for example...
We can get Stockholm Syndromed, and without being really aware of it, become conduits of shame ourselves, dumping it on others in turn when we've reached our limit of endurance, and some last tiny thing sets us off. [Does this one sound familiar? Yeah, I thought it might. Me too, with bells on.]
Or we can TRANSCEND it.
Yeah, right. How do we do that?
Well... not by denying its existence, or its impact, or our having been damaged by it, or our previous non-constructive responses to it.
Not by blaming the N, or our therapist, or, ahem, the person who posted about it.
But by facing it. And grieving it. And seeing how we, who have been so shamed and harmed, may have been used by narcissism - without our conscious knowledge or consent - to pass that shame on to others. To see that we who have been wounded can also wound. To understand that 'hurt people hurt people', as someone else memorably put it.
Then what?
Well... I guess we would start by admitting this to ourselves, first. Then maybe we would talk about it with our therapists. Then we might sit down with a strong cup of coffee - or green tea :-) - or hot chocolate :-D and face it, face what was done to us, face how we in turn have - again without intent - passed on shame and thus hurt, to others. And become aware of it, and become determined to take whatever steps we can, to try with all our heart and soul and mind and strength - not to shame others destructively, whatever our provocation.
This is the way of the Buddha, and of Gandhi, and of Christ. I'm not saying it's easy. It's the hardest thing in all human living, I think. And please, I'm not saying I've made it there. God no. I'm standing in a swamp, with muck up over my knees, looking at the distant mountaintops... but the clouds have lifted, and I can see them, and they are real, and by God, I'm going to get there if it takes the rest of my living days.
I guess I'd better start, then, huh? OK. Here goes.
To everyone I have shamed here, either thoughtlessly or with a barbed response to anything said to me, I apologize with my whole heart.
To everyone I have thought badly of, to everyone to whom I have ascribed motives that were less than the best as though this was a conscious choice that they were making and aiming at me, to everyone I have blamed and rejected in my heart... I apologize; and to those who have hurt me, I will do my best to extend genuine forgiveness.
I can't promise perfection, and I can't even promise total honesty, but I can promise that I will do my best to be honest, and do my best to be either constructive or totally silent, from this point on.
And if this post sets anyone off, and if we get another donnybrook going because of it, then to those who feel hurt, or threatened, by anything I've said here, I am also truly sorry.
Thanks all. I hope this does some good.
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Oh, just realized in my second to last post one thing might not have been clear-- I was saying that, Stormy, you are absolutely welcome to express whatever feelings you have about things that happen here, even more specifically than you have before. I think that's fine. As long as the discussion afterwards is fine with you, too. Personally, I want to be told where people's limits are-- it's too tough to be able to tell on a board where we just read writing, no facial expressions or tone of voice. In general I think it's good if we assume nothing is to be taken personally here, and we're all just trying stuff out, but if something really does push a button, this might be a safe place to air that. If you feel shame airing it, that's ok too-- we all have been there...
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((((((Stormy))))) I just love your brain! And spirit. What a wonderful thread.
Mum can probably explain this much better than I can, because this seems to be the path she is following and she's way ahead of me, if I'm right about that
Well, let's just clear this up first, ok?
You are right, I am on this path.....but WE ALL are. And it isn't who's ahead, etc...to me, it's just whether your eyes are open or not. That's all. Some days I am right there in the muck, up to my eyeballs, but the difference for me, has been KNOWING this. Stepping out of my story for long enough to become an observer of my "life" and become consious of what I am doing/feeling/etc.
I think you have nailed it, Stormy. It hasn't worked to deny, or run, or squish feelings, such as shame. It only works to investigate what we are doing, to detach long enough to MAKE A CHOICE.
That is what I see anyway.
I grew up with a lot of shame. Lots and lots and lots. It was my legacy as a Catholic girl (or my interpretation of it) and perhaps because of: (pick any): birth order, siblings, parents, the position of the stars, past lives.....who knows?. Luckily, as an adult, I have been able to see how so many of my choices were driven by shame. And becoming aware has shown me that I GET TO CHOOSE how I feel.
Shame is a feeling. Feelings are my choice....within my control (if I am consious of them).
So when I feel ashamed, or any negative feeling, for that matter....I get to step out of it, detach, if you will, and look at what this pain (all negative emotions, in my mind) is telling me. Not run, not hide, but feel it entirely and say: "oh, man, I am here AGAIN? OUCH!! What is this all about?"
I usually find I am attached to something I want that is NOT. (Like a different ex husband :lol:) It's a recipe for suffering, this attachment, really. But it's a choice. I can keep it with me if I like (and sometimes I must because I am obviously not done learning WHY the pain is there) or I can let it go. As in set it down, CHOOSE not to keep it in me anymore, walk away from it. And with SHAME, it's usually someone else's bag of SH**, so they get to keep it. I don't need to carry it for them.
I used to worry that in doing this, I would become less commpassionate.
Some people , who wanted me to "stay" the way I "was" (pain receptacle, powerless, pleaser at all costs) would hit me hardest, telling me "what happened to the old you? I NEED the old you back". Most secure and emotionally healthy people however, (and now even those old "naysayers") are not threatened by this and see it as a calm I now have. But if they didn't see it (like my ex) who cares?
If anything, I am more compassionate than ever. Mostly because I can feel compassion for my own frailty as a human, and forgive myself and then in turn, forgive others for their humanity....
Because it is thier life path, thier journey as well. It may not be the way I would choose to do life, but I can bless it all the same. My ex is in pain. I don't take it for him anymore, but I can have compassion for his path, because he owns it and I don't. And he has the same chances I do to wake up. And it's not my problem if he doesn't. and it's okay for me to take care of myself.
So bless his pea pickin' little heart....I get to do life my way, and he gets to do his. I can only influence so much, and I stick with that....and then I have to "let go" of the rest, and let who does control it (my children, for example) own it. It's ok, though, as they will learn from it, in the same way we all learn from pain (if we wake up).
Now I get lots and lots of practice letting go of other peoples' pain, because my exN is always dragging me into court for this and that, being rude and controlling to my children, etc......so maybe that's why I have awakened so much...I get lots of practice dropping negative energy!!
I have developed a new habit, through lots of repetition.
So when the Dalai Lama says "thank your enemies", I get it!!!
And as strange as it seems, everyone on this board, who is in pain, and searching, is truly blessed. For they are waking up....ready to learn a new pattern, and new way of doing life. In our own pain, we become more compassionate, and recognize the love we all share as a common human bond. And we pull each other up from the muck and say (as you did) "Look at the mountains! Let's go!"
I love your image of being knee deep in muck but looking at the mountain tops as your focus. That is exactly what I feel. I try to feel what they air would be like up there. I imagine myself there, and feel it in my body. That is how I will manifest it. It all starts here. Right where we are (muck and all).
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Hi Vunil,
You didn't make me 'really mad' when you implied I am a cranky ogre living under a bridge. :P :lol:
Honestly vunil, I wasn't mad. I just disagreed with what you said vigorously. :D
Someone here recently declared Donald Rumsfeld 'evil' despite the fact that I'm pretty sure this person doesn't know Donald Rumsfeld. How come nobody is ever just wrong anymore?
Why is it that people who disagree with us are so often ascribed a venal (slight pun) motive? In fact, they might have the very same motive, just a different idea on how to apply it.
In some ways, I suppose it might be described as an attempt to shame the other person.
In any event, I wasn't mad atcha and I agree we got to know each other better by talking about it out in the open.
Gotta go now. There's a couple of plump kids passing over my bridge that look like they would make delightful dinner guests, if you know what I mean. :shock: :P :o
mudpup
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Stormchild,
Thanks for your courageous post. I agree that the way to transcend shame is to sit with it and not blame anyone, including ourselves. Then the appropriate action will come to mind. Sometimes I decide that the amount of shame I'm feeling is out of proportion to the situation. The initial shame I feel is usually massive and I've learned not to act on that impulsively. And it IS hard to apologize, repair damage, etc., because it can trigger more shame; and fear of shame being dumped on me in retaliation, that I can't handle. But with practice it sure gets easier.
Brigid,
Here are examples of shame-dumping: "You shouldn't have done that!" "What were you thinking??!" "How can you be so stupid/reckless/selfish?" "What is WRONG with you?" Sure there are more subtle forms of it, but you didn't do it. You were simply trying to do an intervention because her choices were getting in the way of the friendship. You were planting a seed. Nothing wrong with it. If she didn't like it or got upset, that's life. I have told my N sister many things she didn't want to hear and made her really angry. I'm willing to be hated by her if that's what it takes. There are children involved there, as well, otherwise I wouldn't bother.
Vunil,
I agree that it's optimal when people state what they need, what hurt them, and what would help them get past it. I can't do it yet! But it is optimal! :)
bunny
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Hiya Storm, I read your first post here but (my time is limited on the PC right now) sorry, have only scanned all the replies. Just wanted to say, having read some words about withdrawing from the board and so on, I haven’t withdrawn recently but I’m aware that if anyone has looked for ‘Portia’ I haven’t been around so much. Is that terribly narcissistic to think I might have been missed? Or is it realistic? I better check with anyone reading here I guess! Point your N-detectors in my direction. Hmmmmmmmmm……not sure I should be asking that. It sounds a bit like ‘fishing for compliments’ (viz: “hey yeah, we missed you P!”) which I’m not after. Haha never was! I mean, darn, no-one in my own family contacted me when the bombs went off in London (you Storm, you asked after us UK folks). So why should anyone on an anonymous board wonder where some virtual poster has gone? Oh boo-hoo hey! Yeah I know. Am I genuinely laughing at myself or pouring scorn on my having emotions about no-one in the family caring? Gotta watch that scorn gland and grab it when I see it.
Hope you don’t mind me just chattering away for a moment here. I didn’t know this stuff was going to come out of my fingers.
What was I saying? Oh yes, I haven’t withdrawn in a huff or because anyone upset me or anything else, as far as I know in my immediate conscious mind! I’ve just passed the PC time to H who is home at the moment. Maybe I should have said so? Haha think I’ll go and pile on a pack of guilt about ‘neglecting the board’. No! Don’t be silly P. There, I can beat myself over the head and check reality in one paragraph. It used to take weeeeeeks.
How you doing now Storm? Did you want to hear from me? I can’t tell, you know. Sometimes I’ve thought I’ve really upset you by what I’ve said, because you haven’t replied to me directly. And if you don’t tell me, I don’t know, so I just wonder and ponder and maybe worry a little about have I said the wrong stuff, you know, I reckon you think the same kind of way, judging by this thread. I can beat myself up pretty well. Hey I was all hormonal the other day and said something so weird, so not-normal to a neighbour that I’m still thinking of apologising to him. And it wasn’t that big a deal, I know it wasn’t. But I’m worried that he’ll think I’m nuts, really. What the heck. I dunno. I might have a word, when I’m less hormonal. Yeah. Not sure I’m properly back to my ‘true self’ yet, whatever or whoever that is! You ever get that? Hormonal stuff, sends you nuts, so that you want to rip someone’s head off just because they made a noise! Or you start a conversation totally over-exaggerating how good it tastes to have rye bread….stupid stuff. Having said that I think I’d better stop!
Gosh look at all those daft words above. Submit them into some server and let them go…shall I? I will, but I shall flinch. And I still worry that some people will hate me. Or will ridicule me. Whatever.
I have a question about an Alice Miller book I’m reading. I might post that in a couple days. It has me stumped and I feel a bit stupid for not understanding what she means. If that’s okay. Not sure it’s board material. I’ll think about it.
Sorry for not reading all this thread (I like to think when I’ve posted replies and people have all joined a thread that others take the time to properly read and reply and share and I haven’t done that here so yeah, I feel I’m being bad-mannered). Just felt the urge to say hello given your thread opening Storm. Just in case. It can’t hurt can it? Maybe it can. Maybe I’m being too honest. Oh dear, now I’m making myself annoyed! Yeah, I’m too honest and that hurts people so in being honest I’m being evil, deliberately to hurt others! That’s what I was taught. Cruel, stupid parents. Yeah well. As I said, better go until the hormonal balance returns.
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Hey! I was wondering where you were.
As it happens, I feel sure I am the one who said Rummy was evil... Sorry! Pregnancy has made me hyperbolic. I don't know him but I have had encounters with others in his administration. I'll wait until I meet him to decide he's truly evil. Maybe :) He definitely isn't my cup of tea, but I see that it makes me sound like Queen Elizabeth to thus pronounce him doomed.
You had a right to be a little upset with me-- what I said wasn't very sensitive. The evil Rummy thing was ok, I think, because I made clear it was my opinion and I hoped it didn't offend anyone and it was in the context of a story I was telling, etc. The other wasn't as good because I did sort of say that left-wing people are nicer and less N and more open.
Which I have definitely found, in my pregnancy, to be utterly false. Oh my! I have gotten so much bossy arrogance from the natural-childbirth crowd, and the medical crowd has been pretty nice to me. I have all sorts of pregnancy complications and all (medical personnel) have advised me to plan a C-section. Well, I can't tell anyone this, stranger or acquaintance, becauseI tend to be around people who would call themselves "left of center" and there is a party line on childbirth among many of them, and any deviation from it gets me a very long lecture about how my doctor is wrong. About me. Whom they do not know! Strangers lecturing me about what is best for me and my baby. It is pretty amazing. I know there are MD's who are pretty bad about this stuff, too; I've just been lucky and have had (chosen) good ones.
So, Mudpup, mea culpa on that one! I was utterly wrong. People can have N traits no matter what their political affiliation or left/right leanings.
Ok, back to our regularly scheduled thread....
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OH, funny, I think intermittent posts make my post look a little insane. Which it might be, of course, but I was responding to mudpuppy. That's who "you" is in my post.
But since I'm here, Hi, Portia! Feel free to post on Alice Miller-- I don't always know what she means, either, and the discussion might be enlightening.
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Or we can TRANSCEND it.
Yeah, right. How do we do that?
Well... not by denying its existence, or its impact, or our having been damaged by it, or our previous non-constructive responses to it.
Not by blaming the N, or our therapist, or, ahem, the person who posted about it.
But by facing it. And grieving it. And seeing how we, who have been so shamed and harmed, may have been used by narcissism - without our conscious knowledge or consent - to pass that shame on to others. To see that we who have been wounded can also wound. To understand that 'hurt people hurt people', as someone else memorably put it.
Then what?
Well... I guess we would start by admitting this to ourselves, first. Then maybe we would talk about it with our therapists.
Great post Stormchild!
I deal with this on a daily basis as I cut off another tangled vine connected to either my bioNfather, Nmother or Nfather. The damage done has the potential to spill into everything in my life so I'm scrutinizing my mind, my emotions, and everything I do.
Sometimes a post to this board takes me an hour to write because I'm scrutinizing every word to make sure I don't step on toes, hurt anyone's feelings, fail to communicate, etc. For myself, I think this inner policing sometimes goes to far and blocks my communication. Is there a middle ground where I am not so self-conscious and I am writing more freely? Don't know. I'm doing it right now. Is this okay? Did I say it right? I'm I communicating what I mean, meaning what I say? Did I use the right words? Will it hurt someone? Am I projecting my feelings onto someone? I'm I blaming someone? etc.
Sometimes I need to go the other direction and stop the policing of my thoughts, emotions, etc. That's why I am writing my books. I can spew forth whatever words need to come out of me. That is where I have my catharsis and total freedom.
I can only do the best I can do.
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OH, funny, I think intermittent posts make my post look a little insane. Which it might be, of course, but I was responding to mudpuppy. That's who "you" is in my post.
But since I'm here, Hi, Portia! Feel free to post on Alice Miller-- I don't always know what she means, either, and the discussion might be enlightening.
Shoot, nearly all my posts look a little insane at the best of times ;-) -- good cure for shame, right there.
Wow, there's been a lot of action on this thread. I was really reluctant to post it but now I'm glad I did. Lots of good stuff to read over and think about. I want to thank people but that doesn't feel entirely right - yes it's right to say thanks but this good stuff is being given to everyone, not just me. Anyway, thanks for responding here, and thanks from me for the good I'm deriving from the responses. :-D
Portia, I'll send you a PM... meant to before, been sidetracked. Lots.
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Hi Stormchild.
I'm so happy to see this post. It took me three attempts to read it today. Every time I tried to hop on the computer one of my kids started acting up. It was just one of those days.
Anyway, I don't have time tonight as it's getting late and I have to get them to bed but I wanted to acknowledge your post and give it the thumbs up.
((Stormy))
Have a good night and God bless.
Mia
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Hi again Vunil,
Actually it wasn't you who said anything about Rumsfeld that I read, it was somebody else just recently but I can't remember whom.
It doesn't really matter. We worked all this out long ago.
You recognized how wonderful I am and I did the same for you. :P :lol: :?
I hope you take care of yourself.
By the way, has anyone tried to shame or question you regarding your age and the pregnancy?
God bless.
mud
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When I first started reading this thread, my shame came upon me in waves. Yes, I am stupid, obtuse, and so totally self absorbed that I don't recognize conflict when I read it. I was compelled in a few instances to go back and read threads to find what I had missed. More "shame" when I couldn't find it. But at the same time, I wondered where a few of us were :)
I also try to phrase my posts in such a way as to be so totally understable with the use of icons that they won't be hurtful, pompous, or denegrating. But, I've never seen anything here that was self-servingly harmful....hmmmm....maybe that's why I stayed married to that moron for so long...denial, denial, denial.
Really, when people disagree, it forces me to think and I welcome it. At my age, my cerebral strengths are my strongest. I think we all are great and thank you again, Storm, for developing such a great conversation.
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Vunil
OH, funny, I think intermittent posts make my post look a little insane. Which it might be, of course, but I was responding to mudpuppy. That's who "you" is in my post.
But since I'm here, Hi, Portia! Feel free to post on Alice Miller-- I don't always know what she means, either, and the discussion might be enlightening.
<big laugh!> :D Vunil I felt instantly cheered reading you, thank you! And thanks for the ‘hi’ too. Happy to be hormonal and slightly weird today. Isn’t 43 too young for the start of the menopause? I just don’t remember feeling this odd in the past. I’m not looking forward to whatever happens as we get older. Hot flushes etc. Yeah, Alice, I started typing and thought I understood it as I typed, but I will post it anyway next week. I found there is a Forum run separately to her own site, but I’m not sure I want to step in there. It’s a sanctuary for experiences, not exactly a discussion forum.
Storm
Portia, I'll send you a PM...
Thanks Storm :D, one coming back to you when I’m off here.
Mudpup, how are you? You okay with your own life right now? I haven’t been reading of late. All I can see here is something between you and Marta. What’s going on? Have I missed something? Is it better I keep my nose out of this? :?But most of all, are you okay with your real life stuff? Take care.
Hello Marta, good to meet you. I’ve read a couple of your posts but sorry, haven’t taken the time to read you properly. Is that dismissive? I hope not. It’s a time-thing for me. Anyway this caught me:
That she was abusing her own child (she called him the baby, not by his name, IT, when he was two or three.) I have often wished that I had, for the "baby's" sake.
Yes, it is abuse and I understand (-but we can’t change others and sometimes, for the sake of our selves, we have to choose our causes and actions and let some go, yes?-) and thanks for making me feel okay about the things I witness that cut through me. My neighbour calls her 17 year old son “the boy” in conversation to me. Maybe it’s a cultural thing though. I think it’s horrible. But he seems okay and whenever I can, I chat to him and make a real effort to relate to him as a person separate to his mother and valuable in his own right.
Dogbit
When I first started reading this thread, my shame came upon me in waves. Yes, I am stupid, obtuse, and so totally self absorbed that I don't recognize conflict when I read it. I was compelled in a few instances to go back and read threads to find what I had missed. More "shame" when I couldn't find it.
As far back as I can remember, all my parents (step-ones, grand-ones etc) argued. About me it seemed. I was a problem to everyone. But all this arguing supposedly about me, it hardly ever included me (of course not, children don’t have feelings or opinions etc……….roll eyes). So the ‘problem’ was half secret I guess. So these days I like conflict out in the open. I don’t feel bad though that I haven’t a clue what lies behind the conflict on this page. And I think there is conflict, and a lack of respect but I don’t know why.
I have another problem. I love to solve problems. Very masculine, or so I’ve been led to believe. Someone comes to me with a story, I keep looking for ways to solve their problem. When they just want validation maybe. Tricky.
Really, when people disagree, it forces me to think and I welcome it.
I don’t all the time because sometimes the disagreements aren’t about what’s written on the board, or the way you or I perceive what’s written, but are instead about people projecting, transferring or whatever else psych-labels there are for communication and perception. I stopped talking to someone ages ago because I’d hit a big nerve and they’d started on me as though I was their mother (it was a poster called T for troublemaker and if you see this T, hope you’ll come back and give me a good telling off). It was zero to do with me (not true, T had triggered something in me too, but it was unrelated to her stuff, my stuff was mine, hers was hers….). Anyway what the heck was I saying? Forgotten. New tack then.
hurtful, pompous, or denegrating. But, I've never seen anything here that was self-servingly harmful....hmmmm....maybe that's why I stayed married to that moron for so long...denial, denial, denial
If someone had been hurtful, pompous, or denigrating, what does that say about their thoughts and feelings? What’s eating them and why are they doing that, if indeed they are? And if someone perceives that this hurt and denigration are coming their way, does this give them an opportunity to examine their reactions? About the denial part above, are you saying that you have seen something that is self-servingly harmful and you were incorrect before….? I saw something that I would class as self-servingly harmful here once. Someone trying to recruit for what I thought was a cult. Hmmm. Yep, harmful alright. I might have been wrong?
We’re all human and, it seems, pretty similar to each other. Except I’m a real pain the butt and I should Shut Up :D no chance (someone anonymous here once said to me I was "taking voicelessness to the other extreme"! :x :x :x what horse shit that was. But sometimes i really do annoy people and the best thing is.....when they tell me so. true. finding voices and using them, it's fantastic to see :D)
Oh……H wants the PC and his dinner! Storm, I really want to reply …and I will. I need another PC….hasta leugo/manana
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This seems to belong here...
http://www.comics.com/creators/strangebrew/archive/strangebrew-20050814.html
enjoy,
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I love that comic! Thanks Stormchild! :lol:
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For myself, I think this inner policing sometimes goes to far and blocks my communication. Is there a middle ground where I am not so self-conscious and I am writing more freely? Don't know. I'm doing it right now. Is this okay? Did I say it right? I'm I communicating what I mean, meaning what I say? Did I use the right words? Will it hurt someone? Am I projecting my feelings onto someone? I'm I blaming someone? etc.
Sometimes I need to go the other direction and stop the policing of my thoughts, emotions, etc.
OMG Sally, you took words right out of my mouth.
For 35 years, I was constantly watching out as to whether or not I am hurting someone, watching for signs of hurt in others, the whole works. One of the brainwashing detergents came with the slogan that "you should intuit the needs of other without their asking."
How lierating it was when I decided to stop doing it. Not because I wish to hurt others, or be insensitive. But I think that this kind of sensitivity leads to too much "inner policing," to borrow your words, and to too much game playing, saying things for the sake of being nice, when you'd rather be saying something else.
Hmmm ... looks like I didn't communicate clearly. :lol: :lol: :lol:
When I write in my journal, my books and talk to my t I've got the freedom to write/say anything I want.
However, for me, I don't believe that same freedom applies here. I do have to scrutinize what I write. And not because I'm game playing, or being nice, or trying to intuit what someone needs to hear or anything else. Rather it is about being compassionate and constructive (to the best of my abilities).
After writing my post I realized that I don't see any middle ground for communicating here on this forum. And that is A-ok with me! :)
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That being said, wow again, your response is really brave. ((((((((((Plucky))))))))))
Thanks Stormy,
I didn't mean myself though. From what I read, others up here have had much worse experiences than I. I really feel for them and I would not want to heap any requirements on them, not that you were doing this. I just meant, that this for me was a place I could come and let it all hang out. I wouldn't want to remove that function for someone else, who might be in raw pain and unable to moderate their writings at the moment they need help the most.
I guess there are two sides to it; let's try to be conscious and sensitive when we are responding to someone's issues, and also try not to be too sensitive to others responding to us. And then, we need to be forgiving. Forgiveness is probably something most victims of Ns have not really received, and not been able to offer themselves, either. I will try that, because I know I may have been insensitive in the past.
Plucky
PS where is the quote button on this thing?
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PS where is the quote button on this thing?
It's the icon with the yellow box in it. Sorry, that was a lousy description. :oops:, but the best I can do.
Brigid
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Stormchild, great thread! I'm glad you started it. I've been really busy at work the last few days and am just now getting caught up.
I realized reading this that I have been trying to have the "perfect divorce" and avoid offending anyone because of shame. Hell, I have been trying to be the "perfect person" because I thought that was the only way to get people to stay close to me. Shame is one of the reasons, or maybe the main reason why I have been so hard on myself through a lot of this and worried about what other people thought. I felt guilty and ashamed and "not good enough" so I have to work extra, super-humanly hard to "earn" other people caring about me.
I have done so much biting of my tongue, I'm amazed I still have one. When people say the stupidest, rudest things, I would say nothing and even nod and seem to agree! Yuck! I put up with selfish, abusive, annoying behavior from my wife for years thinking that if I was "perfect enough" I could get her to not just stop, but completely change her behavior. Always trying to be better so I can finally "deserve" something good in my life.
Maybe some of this is coming from work. Despite wroking a lot, I am not able to put the same energy into my job for this upcoming deadline. I even told my boss that I would not be able to go that extra mile like have in the past. (My boss is really understanding and supportive, so that was OK.) There is just so much going on in my life in moving toward divorce, building a relationship with God, all the changes and growth that I've been going through. It like I only have half the energy for work with all this going on in the background every day. In the past, I would have worked right up to the point of exhaustion at the deadline and been proud of myself for gauging it correctly and not collapsing before we finished. :( Now, even though I am very tired most of the time, work is the first thing to go when I need to take care of myself. I value myself far more that this job. Now, I value myself more that a relationship, especially a bad one.
This is all stream of consciousness, so I apologize if it doesn't make sense. I think since I haven't posted for a couple of days, the pressure was building up to let it out.
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Yea long! Makes perfect sense. Thanks for sitting in.
I agree, the fear of shame - the need to escape shaming - has driven a lot of my past 'need to perform' too. Thinking that if I were only good enough at whatever, my poor evil echo-empty mother would finally appreciate me. Or the incompetent, nasty, narcissistic teacher or boss or whatever. Sad, that. Craving mercy from the merciless, love from the unloving, kindness from the cruel. Because they shame us, in defense, making us feel as though WE are the defective ones, keeping us from seeing where the defects really lie.
I think it's what drives the 'crab bucket' too. That thing that keeps people from breaking free of dysfunctional families and groups... the way crabs in a bucket will pull down any crab that manages to get near enough to the edge that it might otherwise escape. Shame. Get back down here in the quicksand with the rest of us, who do you think YOU are?
And heaven help us, we don't know any better because we've never had anything better, so down we slide, in we wade, feeling all the time as though something isn't quite the way it ought to be but never knowing what's wrong.
It's been interesting to see the panorama of responses here. A kaleidoscope... different people refracting the light in their own unique ways... thankfully, reactive shaming - which I thought was probably inevitable with a topic this emotionally loaded, where we're all walking wounded in various ways - seems almost nonexistent.
Interesting thing has happened for me since I articulated this. I've had some really delightful recent encounters - I'm being sarcastic - with total jerks; typical Ns-in-traffic, at work, at the store type stuff. My response is different. I see the shame being thrown, and instead of being angry about it, or reacting in some way to defuse it, I'm just sort of taking one brisk step to the right or the left and watching it whiz past. Feeling a thankfully mild contempt, mingled with a very cool (temperature-wise) sort of pity, and then going on about my business. It's so obviously THEIR problem - and not worth any emotional expenditure on my part - at least, it seems obvious now!
Hmm. So... the point of Ns shaming us is to deprive us of confidence in ourselves. Which, of course, makes us easy to manipulate and deceive. And god bless us, when we reactively shame others, because we don't know any better, we're doing the Ns' work for them.
Makes perfect sense, then, that one of the first things that would happen, when we see and reject shaming, would be an increase in confidence and in resistance to manipulation and deceit.
Wow. I hope this sticks. Nice, it feels. I'm looking forward to reaching the point where the mild contempt and cool pity are replaced by detachment and compassion, too, but right now I need to feel exactly what I'm feeling, in order to get away from what I used to feel. I've extended the wrong kind of compassion to Ns all my life.
This URL is a link to an amazing cartoon series by a person whose faith is as real and reality-based as anything I have ever seen. But please don't click on it if you are prone to nightmares about Ns being monsters, because this strip shows someone 'exposing' their inner N, and their whole countenance changes into something monstrous. It's as ugly as anything Steven Spielberg could come up with in a special effect. But I swear I've seen something like this happen, in the faces of Ns hurling shame.
http://www.comics.com/comics/levelpath/archive/levelpath-20050813.html
[Just in case the URL takes you to today's strip (for whatever day you access it) the strip I meant to direct to is the one for 8/13. If you want to see a fairly amusing sample of his work instead of this amazing depiction of an N's inner core, copy the URL above, paste it into your browser, and change -20050813 to -20050814 before you hit the return key.]
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Hi Stormchild and everyone,
I'm just catching up on this thread. Very thought provoking, so I wanted to read it through carefully first. Lots going on in this one.
I just wanted to share something that happened only days ago. One of my kids' summer instructors and I were having a conversation in passing and he threw out an off-hand remark that just hit me like a bolt of lightening. I had such an intense physical reaction that I knew I had better not say anything and go sit down. I sat there shaking and wondering why I was practically breaking down. To say I was over-reacting to what happened in this present moment is an understatement. (I had misinterpreted what he had said, but the fact that I was so primed to take it a certain way also told me something...)
So I asked my T about it and basically whatever he said (inadvertently) hit an old buried wound. Basically the hurt has to do with the Shame of growing up being a girl in a very male-oriented family. That there is Shame. Bad feelings for what you are that is no fault of anyone. My realization was wow, it was worse than I am able to remember. Perhaps I feel this now because as an adult who is working on these things, maybe only now I can allow myself to feel that pain. Does this make sense? It was almost as bad as a panic attack and just came out of nowhere.
On another aspect of the discussion, I find that I really clamp my mouth shut when angry because I don't want to fire back and then feel bad about it afterward. I wouldn't want someone to feel bad because I was angry and went off the handle. My father does enough of that for everyone!
Wish I could say more (want everyone to know there were many "gosh, I've felt like that, too!" reactions to all your posts), but gotta go now. Hugs, MP
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Wow Stormy that comic was so real! I have seen my mother's face distort like that into something scary. I even have a photo of it, taken by accident before she was ready, and she was furious that I, in her mind, was trying to show her looking unpretty. Because everyone knows that she is so so pretty and will always be.
Plucky
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Hi Plucky, Yes, I've seen something very similar in my own mother, and a couple of other people. Male as well as female.
I was floored to see it depicted by a comic strip artist. I knew what I was seeing in my mother, and these other people, when their expressions changed so extremely, was real -- but I had no idea anyone else had ever seen anything like it.
I guess quite a few of us have seen this kind of change come over someone. Don't know if that's reassuring or frightening - a little of both, I guess.
Hi MP -- oof, that must have been rough. Did your kid's instructor have any idea something was happening to you? I'm sorry you were shamed for being. Literally for being who you are. I got that from my mother for being like my father. I'm sorry you got it at all, and especially that you got it just for being a darling little girl.
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Hi Stormy,
No, the instructor and I were walking in different directions when he made the remark. He really meant no harm and actually what he was saying was sort of a compliment, once I calmed down from my traumatic flashback. The damage came from my own interpretation of what he said. (I am deliberately not quoting him, because I get a little weird about getting too specific on message boards--but that's a different topic/phobia! :) ). What really blew me away was my own reaction to a casual remark.
The stuff I dealt with as a child was under the radar from my parents (communicated more through attitude--women are to serve the men) and more open with my siblings. I was praised long and hard for being so quiet and easy-going. But anytime I had a problem with my Nbro, I was sent to my room. Mom always took his side. It was unbelievable. I know this sounds like petty sibling rivalry. But add that to the anti-female attitudes from both my parents and dont-bother-me rage from my Nfather, it was unbearable. So I became invisible. Kinda dicey growing up during the feminist movement. :shock: I've heard that ambiguity can be more damaging than overt physical abuse. Not that it's a competition, but you can kind of figure out that ma and pa are whacked if they're beating the cr*p out of you and not pretending to like you while they are messing with your head. Even as a teenager, I would wonder at the confidence other girls had and ask myself how they got it. What was different? It was such a puzzle.
I haven't check out the comic strip yet. Hmm. Kind of like pandora's box. Think I'll wait! :wink: MP
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Hi MP
Glad you didn't have to deal with a confused instructor on top of everything else.
Covert abuse is horrendously damaging, I think because so much of it is nonverbal, and so much of our ability to analyze things depends on our being able to verbalize them. Until you can describe in words what has happened, even if those words are only in your thoughts or a journal, you can't really see or grasp or evaluate or deal with it...
I got the same kind of favoritism flip side in my FOO (family of origin, I love that acronym. Foo!). Nsib could do no wrong, and no matter what I did it was never good enough. Shame, shame, shame, and always on me. You know the deal. It's been revolting to find the same garbage thriving lushly in my current workplace... favoritism, etc. ... but now I can articulate it! I can call it out! I know what it is!
Sometimes I wonder how much of the opposition to 'labeling' is an honest concern about stereotyping, and how much of it is a desire to prevent people from being able to name, understand, and overcome the things that drive, harm, and oppress us.
About that cartoon: it really is ugly, and you really ought not look at it if you have even the tiniest likelihood of being upset by it.
The link won't be any good a month from now, that site doesn't retain archives for more than 30 days, but I didn't want to post the image since it's copyright material and the artist deserves his site hits.
Gotta go... hugs to you
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Thanks Stormy!
great point about verbalising. really helpful. hugs back, MP
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I have seen my mother's face distort like that into something scary. I even have a photo of it, taken by accident before she was ready, and she was furious that I, in her mind, was trying to show her looking unpretty.
My Nmum's face looks like that on one of the photos taken at my wedding. Ex and I are smiling away in the middle, with one set of parents either side. My mum has her face towards the camera, but her eyes looking sideways towards me, and the most evil expression you have ever seen on her face. As if her resentment towards me is at its strongest on that day; when she was in second place.
Maybe this is why Ns hate having their pictures taken. :?
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As if her resentment towards me is at its strongest on that day; when she was in second place.
On the plane I saw the movie, 'Monster in Law'. In real life, my mother insisted on wearing a white dress to my wedding, just like Jane Fonda's character. I asked her not to, I had already bought her a dress, but she insisted that it was not flattering to her. So I became the one trying to make her look bad.
That Bitch!
a really bad
plucky
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:shock:
Hmm...I remember a couple of my mother's friends wearing white to my wedding. It really bugged me. One went so far as to wear a small white hat complete with a little peekaboo veil!!! What does that tell you? :?
Whenever I go to a wedding now, I stay away from the women in white, except the bride of course. They are up to no good.
MP
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I didn't wear white when I married. My dress was pale silver, with a rose pattern woven in. White veil. I made it myself.
Thinking back, though, I have a very N friend, who wore a white suit that day. Never thought about it before, because whatever she was saying, it didn't work. :lol:
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Reading these posts about women deliberately choosing to wear white to someone else's wedding - how incredibly unhealthily competitive! Reminded me of some of the horror stories people were posting about other important life occasions. Maybe we should have a thread about how Ns try to hijack everyone else's sacraments!
October, brava, how lovely that it never had any impact. MP -- ewwwww! Even a veil??? Ditto Plucky... ewww... mom from hell...
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What’s the objective of the post above please? (The one with lots of Mandarin(?) links, just in case it gets deleted.)
Is there anything you want to say here?
Everyone, is anyone else bugged by these posts? I am.
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I think perhaps it was an invitation to get an advanced degree in Spamology... :P
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Thanks Hops. Yah. Pointless. No objective. Not even an irritation really.
So if this doesn't really bother me - it's just a load of links and words - why do other threads bother me more?
Maybe there is an objective in the spammer after all. :idea:
How we react to threads depends entirely on us. It's all strange symbols on a white background.
Our interpretation makes it meaningful or meaningless?
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HI ALL I saw the post and was confused i am sorry to display my ignorance but i take it that was is a example of spam?
moonlight
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How would an idiot saint respond to shame-dumping?
MOONLIGHT
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hi stormchild this is such a brillant answer i got a lot to learn moonlight
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stormchild thanks All us kids got it from n-dad .My big sis just had to remove herself altogether.She said she is so sorry it hurt me and she knew I did not do anything.But she had to do it for her own sanity.Thats OK we got each other now ! I AM SO GLAD.
COOL HUH after 15 years . Its a good thing.
Hugs
moonlight