Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: write on August 22, 2005, 02:14:57 AM
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who sent me the really obnoxious email saying he could never consider me a friend etc....
Well he's now getting married to one of my closest friends.
She's written to me begging me to go to the wedding.
I've explained to her already that it's not easy for me ( with Bipolar 1 ) and how much he hurt me, but she's besotted with him and can't see that it's not a good idea for me.
She just repeats her request that I go and makes excuses for him.
I'm not going to the wedding or engaging with him or anyone else who deliberately hurts me, but is there some way to deal with this without losing her friendship?
Giiven the narcissitic personality he's already shown I am torn- she will need me in the future, but I will not allow him any further into my life...and I don't trust him even if he apologises.
None of my friends like him either, so it's not just me.
Is there anything I've missed and a way I can handle this?
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Is there a way to ask her something like this: "I really just can't go to the wedding. I am so sorry. I want to stay friends with you, and would be really upset if this meant that we can't be friends. But something in me just can't go."
Maybe she thinks you are still pondering and doesn't get that you really have made up your mind. I bet she also finds your acceptance of the wedding important for her own peace of mind. You don't have to express this acceptance if you don't want to.
I'm sorry! It sounds really stressful. It is always a mysterious thing, the people other people pick as their life partners...
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Write, if she keeps pushing and refuses to hear you, she isn't being a friend right now anyway... sad but true... you might consider an alternative, such as offering to organize a shower, or take her and some other women to lunch. These occasions would exclude him and you'd be spared dealing with that. If that's not an option, in your place I'd get a really nice wedding gift and send it, with regrets about attending. All you can do is act like a civilized human being, which you are doing. If she can't meet you in the middle, you can't do it for her...
hugs
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Write,
I think you are totally justified in feeling the way you do and a good friend should be sympathetic to that. I agree with Vunil that your presence at the wedding may give her some peace of mind (he must not be that bad a guy or whatever), but that is not your job. My guess is that the friendship will be difficult to maintain after the wedding anyway as you will not want to associate with him and she will be defensive of her decision to marry him and eventually distance herself from you.
I think the shower and/or nice gift are both good ideas. Only do what is comfortable for you.
Blessings,
Brigid
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write, this sounds like a very taxing situation.
needless to say, your friend is not thinking about your feelings and your health by pressing you. And I have a hard time seeing how you are going to maintain the friendship after she is married to this guy. I don't know the history, but it sounds like he is a jerk and you are just going to be waiting in the wings, biting back your tongue and picking up the pieces.
Before I got married, the night before, one of my friends told me not to get married. She said, you can still back out. She was so right, and at the time part of me knew it but most of me was just caught up in the tide.
I did not listen to her and she did not show up to the wedding. In fact, we lost touch forever. But I still think about her and I am grateful that she tried to save me.
I guess my point is, if you think your friend is making a mistake, say so. If it destroys your freindship for now, how was that friendship going to survive anyway? Once you say that you can't stand the guy, not just that he is not fun, but you think he is horrible, or whatever, she may not press you to attend any longer. Or, you can say that your therapist does not think it is a good idea.
Plucky
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write,
I would be firm and say, "I can't come." Don't expect her to let you off the hook, just say you aren't coming and don't allow any room for argument. I'm assuming she is aware of the reasons. If she can't handle it, she is no friend of yours. Her wedding is one day, it is not the end-all, be-all of the universe. i wish her luck. I barely remember who was and wasn't at my wedding. It's not the barometer of friendship to me.
bunny
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Thanks guys.
You're right, she is putting me under pressure. She is besotted and does not see anything wrong in how he treated me.
She worries me sometimes, says in order to further their relationship she has had to be patient and not ask questions about his past etc....no wonder he doesn't like me then, I'm always asking questions!
I couldn't imagine getting to know someone without learning about their history, especially if I were marrying.
The other thing about attending the wedding- it's in Europe and would cost me a thousand dollars just to get there.
Anyway I nicely explained yesterday and told her firmly I won't be going but I really wish them both well.
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The other thing about attending the wedding- it's in Europe and would cost me a thousand dollars just to get there.
Hello? Earth calling bride-to-be.....earth to bride......you are crazy......please call earth, bride....oh, we lost the signal. Damn.
bunny
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Write,
I couldn't imagine getting to know someone without learning about their history, especially if I were marrying.
Isn't it amazing the extent some people will go to be married? I liked Bunny's response the best. I give this marriage a year or two at best, or she will just be miserable for a long time. Why are they getting married in Europe? Aren't they from the US? That alone is a reason for concern. I think you are very smart to not condone this union in any way.
Brigid
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I think it is valid for friends to have expectations from each other, so it is natural that your friend has some from you. It is also natural that besotted as she is with an N, she has been sucked into his twisted worldview, and therefore discounts whatever hurt he may have caused you, just as she is going to have to discount whatever hurt he causes her in future. Which one of us hasn’t been there with the Ns in our lives?
With respect, I believe friends have REASONABLE expectations of each other. Her expectations are ridiculous. She expects write to give up her self-respect, self-protection, any rationality, and spend oodles of cash to go to her wedding thousands of miles away. I find this outrageous. Being infatuated doesn't erase sensitivity and consideration toward other people.
It is also equally important not to dismiss her as your friend just because she is pleading you to consider her feelings. I think it is dangerous when we start judging who is being a friend and who isn’t based on an incident like this. For one thing, the more friends we lose because we suspect their lack of friendship or ill will towards us, the more bitter and cynical we are likely to become: the more we see that it is because of our incompatibility for some reason, more accepting and open we become. Therefore I think it is important to put demise of relationships in correct perspective.
Friendship is based on mutuality. This is a one-way street where the woman wants write to make all the concessions. I would seriously question a friendship if a friend behaved like this toward me. I wouldn't consider it a huge loss, if the person had a history of treating me like this, or, if it looked like this was the future of the friendship.
I don't know whether they can remain friends after the wedding, it depends on whether this woman continues to treat write like an N supply.
bunny
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I think it is a challenge for those who come frm N background to learn to distinguish between the two, to trust our judgment regarding it, and learn to deal with the second type of conflict. One of the criterias I often use is whether I would do the same thing as the other person, if I were in her shoes. I could see myself behaving like write's friend; and yes, I would also make a supra loyal friend. I could never see myself behaving like the guy her friend is marrying though. So to me, the friend's behavior is "normal conflict" and the guy's is not.
I have three issues with this bride:
(1) She wouldn't take "no" for an answer and pressured her friend. That doesn't fit into my idea of friendship.
(2) She expected her friend to attend a wedding in another country. That is ridiculous.
(3) She had no sensitivity, empathy, or willingness to see that write needed to protect herself.
And these problems FOR ME, would make me question the friendship. Boundary issues, which I see here, are big red flags to me.
bunny
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Finally she accepted I'm not going!
But it does worry me- she can't accept it's because of him, just thinks it's because I will get stressed.
I can't say any more to her, she'll just see it as my sour grapes, but it's sad to see her walk into this, and part of me believes he was so horrible to me because he didn't like to see her friendship with me, someone who has gotten herself out of a marriage and is outspoken and independent.
I hope it isn't a control thing, and I guess only time will tell. But he's 30 years her senior, so she's already defensive about the age difference.
If he was a decent guy and knew how much she wanted me there and that he is the obstacle I think he'd probably apologise or try to build bridges, to please her if nothing else.
Time will tell whether he will stand in the way of our friendship or how things will work out.
I'll be supportive from a safe distance!
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Maybe the friend is reacting to pressure from the N fiance to behave in N ways. Maybe your friend would be more understanding if not under the influence of 'the guy'. Maybe she feels torn. Brides are also under a lot of pressure. It is almost as bad as being pregnant.
Plucky
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I agree everything might get better after the wedding. It is always tough when people couple up with people we wouldn't choose-- it has happened to me, too. Usually they do eventually get divorced. My strategy has been to be quiet about the match and stay friends with both (really friends with the one I like, polite friends with the one I don't-- cordial, but not close) to hold onto the friendship. I don't think people stay friends with someone who really vehemently dislikes their spouse and makes it known-- they just can't make that happen. I can't think of an example of someone doing that, although of course this is just my experience. It would be an odd balancing act.
So I would say don't go to the wedding if you really don't want to, perhaps making an excuse about how it was too expensive (you'll both know the real reason) later when you talk about it, be polite to Mr. Yucky so that your friend doesn't feel she has to exclude you from her life, and go on from there. There is no accounting for who people choose in their romantic life; in some ways friendship is the purer relationship. She is going to need you :) In the meantime, how stressful for you! I'm sorry.
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I don't disagree with what's being said here, but when I got married I did NOT turn into "another person" who suddenly treated people differently, and pressured people, and expected things from them. Maybe I'm wierd but I was THE SAME PERSON before and after the wedding.
bunny
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Weddings are fraught with drama, aren't they?
(I think that use of "fraught" is a first for me...) Anyway, my parents were both the same and different, in that they were the same people they always were only more so. :) My covert N mother's envy and female competitiveness sort of burst out of her like the creature in "Alien". :shock: Totally unexpected because she kept it buried for so long, and just as scary. The creature receded into the background within weeks after the wedding. No one noticed except me, the target, because my Ndad's very apparent social anxiety and rage always provides adequate cover for anything else going on.
BTW, my H and I are still married. :D My H is very familiar with N rage and can fearlessly face it down. Anyway, I agree with the decision to not go to something that would be so uncomfortable, and with the idea that a good friend would not put so much pressure on another esp. knowing the history behind the feelings. Just my two cents. MP
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Bunny, you are probably just better adjusted than most people. I have never seen a bride (or groom) who didn't get a little weird before a wedding. Sometimes they get unweird on the exact day and sometimes they get weirder. Then they get normal again but often they have no memory of how weird they were before. It's a funny kind of dementia, I guess. It has to do with all of the projections and worries and euphoria and reluctance surrounding such a big commitment. As dementias go, it's pretty understandable.
Wanting a friend at a wedding my indicate the desire for approval of the union. It could also just be that you like your friend a lot and want them there. Or both. Remember that... family... (cue the ominous music) comes to weddings. Lots of family. It is nice to have friends there to balance things out, to have someone to laugh with, to help you get ready, to gossip with about how odd the family is acting (with each other and with the inlaws), etc.
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Bunny, you are probably just better adjusted than most people. I have never seen a bride (or groom) who didn't get a little weird before a wedding. Sometimes they get unweird on the exact day and sometimes they get weirder. Then they get normal again but often they have no memory of how weird they were before. It's a funny kind of dementia, I guess. It has to do with all of the projections and worries and euphoria and reluctance surrounding such a big commitment. As dementias go, it's pretty understandable.
Wanting a friend at a wedding my indicate the desire for approval of the union. It could also just be that you like your friend a lot and want them there. Or both. Remember that... family... (cue the ominous music) comes to weddings. Lots of family. It is nice to have friends there to balance things out, to have someone to laugh with, to help you get ready, to gossip with about how odd the family is acting (with each other and with the inlaws), etc.
Vunil,
I am not better adjusted than most people, I am very neurotic. I just am SICK OF GUILT TRIPPING which I got all my life and I can't STAND IT anymore. My buttons are pushed by guilt-tripping and pressuring more than anything. Of course I had friends at my wedding! You are talking to me like I'm 5 years old - what is with that? I just did not pressure anyone to come to mine, did not blame anyone who didn't come, and didn't have a bunch of trips about it. In the past I had friendships that were abusive. That's over now, because I CUT OFF people who abused me. I now have certain standards and being pressured does not work with me. In fact it makes me question this person's idea of what a friend is.
bunny
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HI, Bunny-- I wasn't talking to you in particular. Which begs the question why I started the post "Bunny"-- sorry. I just meant the first sentence as directed as you. I do think you are better adjusted over some things than others, seriously. You just seem clear-headed about some stuff that others (like me) aren't. This may be why you didn't get weird over your wedding--
I guess I read your previous post as being something along the lines of "who is this strange person who is getting so flipped out over a wedding? People don't do that! I didn't." My comment was just to say: well, actually, people do that. It is good you didn't, but probably not a reasonable expectation for everyone, even nice people and good friends.
I was just talking about my own experience-- people seem to really lose it at and over weddings. I guess I didn't think this friend was necessarily being awful, just being normal in the range of my personal experience. But really I was talking to Write-- I am not willing to say she should just cut this friend off. I can think of simplistic reasons the friend might want her there (maybe the simplistic part made me sound patronizing, but I really wasn't being patronizing, I promise). Or, she may be awful! I don't know.
I shouldn't post so late at night, I guess...
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HI, Bunny-- I wasn't talking to you in particular. Which begs the question why I started the post "Bunny"-- sorry. I just meant the first sentence as directed as you. I do think you are better adjusted over some things than others, seriously. You just seem clear-headed about some stuff that others (like me) aren't. This may be why you didn't get weird over your wedding--
I respect that this is your idea about me, but it's inaccurate. At the time of my wedding I hadn't yet started taking antidepressants and I was VERY NEUROTIC INDEED. I still did not pressure or cajole people to attend. Maybe in that one area I had some sanity!! I've always been disgusted by brides who use their nuptials to be huge N's. I never could relate to that sort of behavior, even from childhood. This is one of the ways society promotes narcissism! Making a bride into some kind of movie-star celebrity diva who is entitled to act any way she wants and it's totally excused. I don't buy it.
I guess I read your previous post as being something along the lines of "who is this strange person who is getting so flipped out over a wedding? People don't do that! I didn't." My comment was just to say: well, actually, people do that. It is good you didn't, but probably not a reasonable expectation for everyone, even nice people and good friends.
No, I think BAD FRIENDS pressure their friends all the time! If they have a wedding as an excuse, they will be 100x worse!! And I question that kind of friendship for myself. However, I don't know the bride, maybe she has a history of being "okay" and can be given a pass.
bunny
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Bunny,
You often sound like my elder sister, with whom I have had minimal contact for many years. I can feel the pain in your words, which connects me to her pain. She’s so different from me, so it is hard for me to understand her point of view sometimes. But I see that we all come from the same place of pain, however we choose to deal with it.
Isn’t it amazing and wonderful, that through getting to know each other, we are getting to know our families better too?!
Big hug to Bunny.
:D :D :D :D :D
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Actually, for what it's worth, I haven't been married and can't relate personally to Bridezilla, either. I have trouble imagining even having a wedding, actually. I just notice that people seem to get wrapped up in it. I think it has to do with fairy-tale fantasies from childhood. And of course the lure and flash of the wedding has to be at least a little bit implicated in the divorce rate! Wanting this big party so badly must pull some folks into a marriage that doesn't make sense.
Anyway, Write, you still there? We keep talking about your situation and you are probably moved on and fine with it :)
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can't relate personally to Bridezilla, either. I have trouble imagining even having a wedding, actually. I just notice that people seem to get wrapped up in it. I think it has to do with fairy-tale fantasies from childhood.
Me neither. Also sometimes see the bride as sacrificial. The dad who ‘gives her away’, like the piece of property she was until very recently in my neck of the woods, and still is, in many places.
Why do people get married? I don’t know. My only reason would be financial – inheritance mainly, insurance. As for the big wedding with a dress and stuff, total waste of money. Social pressure, conformity, public displays of something which is supposed to be personal between two people. IMO/experience it’s mothers who drive weddings.
Yeah. I dislike fairy-tales a lot. Lies. Untruths. Dreams you can never have; monsters that don’t exist, or they do exist (but they’re your family), but you’re not allowed to tell about them, because if you do, the bogie-man will come and kill you. What we do to kids’ minds is amazingly cruel.
Anyway. Why do folks get married these days, in the west?
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People get married because they feel honored, respected, and loved when their partner wants to make that formal commitment. Children want their parents to be married. Plus the legal reasons.
bunny
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Thanks bunny. I thought it was for illogical ‘romantic’ reasons. I think kids want their parents to be stable together and their environment to be consistent, I don’t think this necessarily means a legal contract? Legal reasons I guess are financial, and probably relate a lot to the prospect of divorce. I wish getting married was as complex and coldly legal as getting divorced. I.e. I really dislike the fantasy of marriage being about honour, love etc when it’s actually a legal contract with sexual, ‘unreasonable behaviour’ and financial bindings.
My parents fell for the fantasy, believed that the other would supply them with the love they didn’t get from their parents. I would imagine they both felt loved, honoured and respected when the other wanted to make a commitment and they probably felt that throughout their wedding day. Then they fell apart because once the commitment was made, the adoration of the moment was over. They both wanted love, honour and respect but neither were prepared to actually give it.
How someone makes me feel wouldn’t be my basis for getting married. It would have more to do with how the other person actually is, I think, but then I’m older now. I wish marriage licences/contracts were full of warnings and contra-indications like drugs!
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(small voice) despite my lack of interest in a wedding, I think marriage is very romantic. I really like the idea of the legal commitment and the vows. I like the idea of being linked with someone else in that official way.
Can't explain why exactly, though... there's something about it that is very enticing. I guess that's why every single society does it, in one form or another.
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Bunny are you alright? You normally sound so reasonable.
Marriage, and as the beginning of marriage, weddings, make all the hidden expectations and needs come out of the woodwork. Not only for the bride and groom, but the parents, friends, etc. The couple has a lot to deal with, and the bride most of all. Just the planning, even if you start out wanting a simple, inexpensive wedding, can be daunting. Then, all the feelings of all the friends and family. The issues with the other family. Your own fears and doubts.
People do it for various reasons, one of which may be that they want to have a formal commitment that will keep the couple together during the hardest times. Another reason is to formalise the commitment before others so that people recognise it and know the partners are serious. While partners may be serious while living together, or even not, that is not declared to the world.
Like many things, the practice of marriage does not always live up to its ideals. But we don't have to say that marriage is bad in itself, do we? That's like saying holidays are naturally bad. They may be bad for us. But for others they are good, and that means that one fine day, for us they will be good also.
an optimistic
Plucky
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Hi Vunil. I don’t like the idea of having the description ‘wife’. Or being married to a ‘husband’. I’d rather have some partnership civil contract. I think it’s probably my mother’s indoctrination; added to my own logical view of the world growing up (i.e. totally cut off from any emotions). Plus I wasn’t exposed to much religious influence, and that that I did experience, was counteracted by my mother telling me it was worthless. None of the marriage things appeal to me, including the idea of life-long commitment. I’d rather have a partnership where my partner decides to be with me because he wants to, day after day, and if he doesn’t want to, so be it. Being alone isn’t so bad either, I don’t fear it (any more). Anyway. I just know that I’ll be alone when I die and I’m getting used to that idea. But I don’t want prolonged pain! Other than that….life is okay as it is I guess. Really. :D
Hey! In Papua New Guinea they used to live (not sure of they still do) in separate men’s huts and women’s huts. All the time. The religion was based around sex: sex being bad. When the men became randy, they projected that onto red parrots ( :shock:I am not making this up) and believed the parrots contained the souls of dead ancestors, who were urging them on in their desires. Marriage there must have been (still is?) a rather different affair than the one we’re probably thinking of!
Hi Plucky. I don’t think marriage is bad in itself. I think more marriages would last longer if the two most important people involved weren’t pressurised in any way into it. And if they could have time to think long and realistically about what they’re doing –especially, to the power of N (as in numbers,…not as in N…!) - especially if they think they want to have children. But I know I’m talking of stuff that’s theoretical in the extreme. Not everyday, living the lives we lead, stuff. And with that, I’m out of words I think.
Write, how you doing? Was the wedding in that forsaken part of England? I’ve got a funny article about ‘The North’ which mentions that place. It’s amusing, I’ll email it to you if you like (don’t want to clog the board with very specific stuff). PM me if you want it and I’ll send you my email if you haven’t seen it already. It’s from this week’s Radio Times! So middle-England.
Bunny? Would you believe I think about ‘you’ a lot? I think about Bunny and ask questions. And I can’t apologise for that wondering/pondering because it’s what I am, it’s what I do. Just saying what I do.