Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: CeeMee on August 26, 2005, 06:37:37 PM
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Hi folks,
Thanks for letting me read your very personal posts and participate in some of your discussions. I must tell you that in the short while that I have been here, I have made some breakthroughs.
1) I've come to the conclusion that although I am not a full fledged N, I do have N tendencies that are sometimes healthy and sometimes unhealthy. I accept that and am prepared more than ever to address those tendencies when they are causing harm to others.
2) I'm also coming to the realization that there are a whole bunch of people in the world and on this board who have suffered greatly at the hands of N (and those with tendencies). This is not an acute pain but a deep pain that is difficult to heal from. There are people in the world and in my family who are tougher than I and those who are more fragile than I. My mantra of "Just get over it!" is not a cure all and can even be harmful depending on the individual.
My questions to you on this board who have suffered at the hands of N are the following:
Am I wrong to think she needs my help? (maybe that's the N tendency in me that always thinks I'm needed to save my younger siblings). Does this situation sound healthy to you?
(Deleted)
If she is in danger, what can I do to reach and help her? I realize my tough love attitude was wrong and I am prepared to take another approach.
(deleted)
If any of this makes sense to any of you and you have thoughts, I AM OPEN and RECEPTIVE. I am not put off by directness either. Let me know what you think.
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Hi Ceemee:
I've come to the conclusion that although I am not a full fledged N, I do have N tendencies that are sometimes healthy and sometimes unhealthy.
Welcome to the club. :D
My mantra of "Just get over it!" is not a cure all and can even be harmful depending on the individual
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Being straight with you here......this is not any kind of cure. It's inconsiderate and unfeeling. So glad that you have recognized that it can be harmful. My bet is...it almost always is harmful to whoever it is said to, unless that person isn't listening. :shock:
I am glad to hear that you have made peace with your mother. I bet that has taken some very serious soul searching. And your concern for your younger sister is very loving.
I have reacted to my sisters present state by distancing from her as well letting her find her way and defending my mother as necessary.
Did you distance in an attempt to allow her to be an adult, or as a way to avoid hearing about her feelings about the abuse she believes she sustained?
In defending your mother, did you deny the abuse?
You may not have realized this contribution to her pain?
Am I wrong to think she needs my help?
It is never wrong to think. For the record, I think she needs your help but.....what that help is....may be arguable.
Does this situation sound healthy to you?
Between her and the pastor/wife? Sounds like a person was lost who went seeking surrogate parents and found them. Trying to heal the pain of the past by these relationships? Are they appropriate people for this role? Scares the begonias outta me. :shock:
They could be honest, caring, generous, giving people who have taken her under their wing and truly wish to help her......
or.....they could have nasty motives that only our worst nightmares might depict accurately? :evil:
If she is in danger,
Only your hair dresser knows for sure....but......it certainly smells bad doesn't it?
... what can I do to reach and help her?
Can you let her know first and foremost how much you care about her? If not in person than possibly in writing? Without judgement on her current behaviour, or advice, or even voicing your concerns? Just communicating that you are here for her, love her, think of her often, wish you could spend time together, would like to listen if she wants to talk about anything, miss her etc.
People make their own choices. It's so very hard to watch someone make what we think are big mistakes, isn't it? But really....what can be done? We are only in charge of ourselves. Trying to convince her that this relationship is screwy will probably only distance her more from you, this time by her choice. Suggesting anything, before trying to get closer to her and letting her know, possibly over and over, that you care....is probably futile too. She will need to really trust you before she will ever listen to anything you have to offer, I bet.
Do you take advice from people who distance themselves from you and deny your experiences?
Your honesty in all of this is so admirable. I wonder if you realize how brave you are?
Hope this helps a little.
:D Sela
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My short answer is: share your journey with her. I can't remember the poet who wrote about the traveler who while traveling on his path came to a fork in the road.....which path to choose. Share your journey so she has a choice.
As for sucking it up and getting on with it...that worked for me for a large part of my life. It might have continued working if I hadn't married mr. entitlement and by doing so, just re-ignited the same old flames of self-doubt and co-dependency. So now in my middling years, the palliative effects of sucking it up and getting on with it are not working. But talking here does help a great deal. The trouble with trying to be "strong" and getting over the past it is that we now have an an additional problem in our lives: we are dealing with the seriously disturbed one who has created the conflict in our lives and who can confabulate until the cows come home about how it is "not their fault" plus we have to fix ourselves so we can have a normal life. Who's going to survive intact? The seriously disturbed one or the one with the resources to suck it up? And, I guess the bottom line is why should we have to suck it up....OK,,,,I know :oops:....The proper term is "internalize it". Sucking it up just has that visceral connotation of what a lot of us have had to do.
The church, or at least the one I went to, showed me what truly compassionite love is. This is definitely a plus but at the same time it may show us what we have not had with our earthly families. Sort of like good news, bad news. Who knows how this revelation may hit us. Another light bulb moment in my life was when I had a friend in AA. I have to say he was the best friend I ever could have had at the time because he demonstrated to me the the empowering effect sharing our journeys is. We don't have to take care of each other by enabling....we take care of ourselves but share our journey so the other person can decide what to do with the best of what they know at the moment with the additional input of another's journey. In short, take the best and leave the rest. Also,
One of my kiddos said to me one day as I was descending deep into depression over Mr. Entitlement, "Oh, Mom....you're being a drama queen." Praise the Lord I did not have a weapon in my hand. Later, when my faculties were more on an even keel, I realized that she was only modeling what I had demonstrated for 20+ years, ie., internalize it. We have since been sharing our journey and are doing better. These are just my thoughts and experience.
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Hello Ceemee,
She will need to really trust you before she will ever listen to anything you have to offer, I bet.
I second this.
I would also add that sometimes we can have a powerful urge to share our newfound knowledge of (fill in the blank) with whoever we think needs it, regardless of our standing with the person, and regardless of the helpee's perception of their predicament.
I would say that it would be enough (and a monumental task) to heal your relationship first. This would take an apology for past hurts and in your words, taking responsibility for your participation in the riff. You also cannot predict or expect how she will receive these overtures i.e., if she is not receptive and one responds: But you're supposed to accept my apology and welcome me back into your life! You would have to let go of whatever outcome you think should result from your attempts to re-establish your relationship. Trust is a very, very difficult thing to regain (ask any betrayed spouse hurt by infidelity.)
I wonder why you defended your abusive mother when your sister was hurting. I don't get that.
In short, I would seriously suggest you review your motives before you mess with your sister and her other relationships. Maybe she doesn't need your help, she just needs you to be real with her. Sorry if i'm blunt! Good luck to you. MP
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Hi CeeMee,
Just kind of guessing, but maybe your sister was so hurt by your mother that she not only wants nothing to do with her but she finds your reconciliation and closeness with your mother frightening and perhaps a betrayal. Was your mother worse to your sister than you? If so then your sister may see it as an 'either or' proposition.
She may very reasonably, as many people do, have to cut off contact with your mother to remain functional. Just because you haven't doesn't mean your sister sees things the same way.
In the vein of being direct, are you certain you are looking at your mother clearly, or perhaps through rose colored glasses because you want her to be 'better' than she used to be. Are you absolutely sure you're not getting ensnared in some denial.
I guess the real question is, are you certain your approach is more healthy than your sister's or has she got a better point than you are willing to recognize, especially from her perspective not yours?
If I were her I would not only be very reluctant to have anything to do with your mother, I would be extremely suspicious of any sibling who tried to lure me back into her sphere of influence or who was in it herself.
I don't know the answers to your questions about these people in her church.
As Sela said these people may be saints.
It sounds as though you are suspicious of them because your sister is attaching to them instead of your family.
If they treat her better than your family does I'm not sure I see anything wrong with that. I've learned the hard way that blood is NOT thicker than water.I am more attached to many of the people in my church than the members of my family who have treated me wrong. I call people on this board my sisters, because my own abandoned me to fight with my brother and mother on my own.
Depending on how betrayed and abused she was she may very well be happier and healthier with a surrogate mother.
Maybe you could get to know these people if you are concerned they have an ulterior motive.
One last thing, it is possible to forgive someone while refusing to put yourself in a position to be harmed again. Your siblings may forgive your mom more than you think. They might just be living by the adage once bitten twice shy.
mudpup
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My sister seems worse off today than I've seen her in a long time. She is in pain. She has been in the bed depressed for a few days. Possibly the result of me getting upset with her and totally ignoring her when she came to visit me last week. I wasn't at my best that day and not able to deal with her.
I love her SO much and worry about her so much that I don't like to be on the outs either.
I am genuinely concerned at the contradiction I see here, between actions and words. Ignoring someone is very unloving, and the combination of unloving actions and loving words will definitely hinder trust and can certainly produce depression in the person who is receiving them.
I'm trying to avoid coming across as shaming - have edited this twice now for that reason. But if there are a lot of actions that go one way while the words go another, there might need to be a lot of thought about why that is, before there are more words.
I hope this is a bit better than my first attempt at articulating it.
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yes, i believe being left having some negative N tendencies are part and parcel to the Nparent experience :?
i can relate to the child's play and juvenille sexual curiosity issue, it's a very touchy, horrible pun, subject. some people, such as yourself can rationalize it. but other's like myself, are haunted by it. for some reason, the younger you are when sexually touched, the more of effect it can have on you. the idea of being left unsupervised as a young child is unnerving. god forbid, if the child/regressing adult tries to tell someone about the experience and doesn't gain validation for the intense feelings they're left with, it can be quite depressing. sometimes, we go to extremes attempting to balance the extremes we've seen in our lives. some people bunjy jump, other's eat incessantly, some overmedicate, some of us go to church.
i, too, am distrustful of churches. my Nmother and father are both pastors and i was in a church about 90% of the first 18 years of my life. and yes, churches are crawling with Ns (and their wives)! nonetheless, it's possible that your sister has found a temporary oasis in the church and is making some important progress in her life. you shouldn't deny her this. give her an opportunity to see for herself, if it is in fact true, that these folks mean her no good. just be a soft place, if she falls. and remember, no good deed goes unpunished. it is a possibility that if she listened to you and denied herself the opportunity to attempt finding solace within this congregation, your sister might just turn the venom she has for her mother towards you and for all the trouble, your efforts would not even be appreciated. i struggled with this with my sister and i've resigned myself to the fact that if she wants a listening ear or some tangible help, i'll be there. otherwise, she's going to have to live her own life.
i suggest trying pouring your energy onto yourself and deciding for sure, whether or not you've really "gotten over it" yourself. maybe your desire to connect with your sister is your own desire to emotionally connect with the pain your mother's caused you. we never really get over it. we figure ways to cope. sometimes, i'm standing there washing the dishes, thinking of something arbitrarily sad, and begin crying as if someone just died. that's my psyche aching. i acknowledge the emotions and the crappiness, place cucumbers over my eyes for the puffiness, and move on.
the best for you
tiffany
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Marta:
You may also be in a fairly rudimentary stages of denial and projection. Why not seek psychotherapy, CeeMee? It sounds to me like you see yourself trapped in a bad situation, and are fishing for a way out. It sounds as though you badly need some compassion yourself.
CeeMee
Psychotherapy sounds interesting. Have you tried it? I don't know anyone who has actually used that approach to therapy but I am open. Everyone needs compassion and I have found much here on this board. Thanks Marta. I value your input.
WHAT approach to therapy? You mean you don't know anyone who's used concepts like denial and projection in therapy? Or you don't know if someone turned to therapy to find compassionate environment? Or you don't know if someone turned to therapy to find a way out of a trapped situation? Or you don't know of anyone who turned to therapy to seek help in healing her damaged relationship with her sister whom she loves a lot? What is it that you are saying?
Stormchild
But if there are a lot of actions that go one way while the words go another, there might need to be a lot of thought about why that is, before there are more words.
I hope this is a bit better than my first attempt at articulating it.
Stormchild, you did a fantabulous job of expressing-- not just your own thought but mine too! :P
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CeeMee-- I think it's really wonderful that you are trying to understand your sister's situation better. It is obvious you really love her. I don't have concrete advice, but I do want to send you support in this journey. I'm guessing the family dynamic favors finding her "weak" and "incapable" and that it is really tough to break out of that, for you and for her. It's funny because in my family I think that I am thought of in the same way as your sister. The funny part is that I am not at all the weakest and most incapable-- by any measure I can think of the opposite is true. But I "bought" it for so long that I think I acted that way around them to some extent, or at least didn't fight it when I was around them. At some subconscious level they needed that from me and I provided it. It may be useful for your sister to act out what it is like to be in a family and not to play her usual role. I think it's likely that is what she is doing now with the pastor and his wife.
I guess I disagree with the idea that her situation with them is necessarily scary or bad or unhealthy. We don't know that. It may be just what she needs right now. The act of taking down pictures of her family may have just been a symbolic way of saying "I am not bound by the old expectations any more." If you express any negativity about her symbolic new family it will likely have really deeper meaning for her than you imagine-- it will mean you are rejecting the idea that she can ever break out of the old patterns, that she does not deserve/warrant a different situation. It's pretty deep stuff! It is worth treading lightly through, if not staying out of altogether for now.
You probably have usual roles, too. I agree that therapy might be really usefu for you to figure all of this outl. I don't think you are N. I think you are put in some sort of older sister role in your family and you are fulfilling that duty. Part of that duty is defending your mother and trying to be in control of the situation.
When I decided to really address what had gone on in my family I got no support from my siblings. One was appalled at my "rudeness" and tried to force a premature "making up" session with my parents about a week (!) after I had confronted my parents and tried to develop a dialogue (the whole thing fell apart and I told them I needed space for a bit). She continually tried to take away this space from me by forcing my parents on me, until I told her to stop and she stopped speaking to me for awhile. The other made clear he didn't believe me. He suggested that I "get help" and that "every situation has different perspectives to it" and other indications that basically indicated he thought I was nutty. Both essentially told me to "get over it" in the same way that you did with your sister. They both said things that made it clear the situation rendered them, in their (defensive) minds, very superior to me.
It is hard to explain, but part of the way to get through a change is to reject everything that symbolizes your own reluctance to make the change. I wanted to "get over it" or have it not be true, too. I would have rather blamed myself and stayed in my old role than to really face all of those painful memories. So in making myself face things I had to reject my siblings-- this was the same, symbolically, as rejecting the old patterns of denial they were voicing.
It is 9 months later and I am on good terms with my siblings and my parents actually have begun to face what we all went through in my childhood, finally. So there is a way out of this. But the way out may involve the stage you are in now.
good luck with all of this... I hope you can find someone professional to help you untangle all of it, because when you combine all of the unconscious and conscious stuff it does sound very complicated!
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PS I missed an important detail-- who exactly sexually molested your sister? What is the story there?
As someone who was also molested as a child, I have to agree with other posters that if the person I told this to chaulked it up to natural sexual curiousity, I would be very upset. In fact, this was what led me to distance from my whole family-- unlike friends, my family reacted with utmost lack of emotion and empathy to being told what happened, after it took me many years to get the courage to tell them, and this reaction led me to decide they didn't believe me. It also made me think there was something severely wrong with them, all of them. Their reaction was not, to me, normal. (I know normal is a loaded word-- but that is what I thought. It was like a lightning strike-- these people are f**ed up!).
In fact, even though everyone is perfectly nice to each other now, I will never feel as close to my family as I could now that they have reacted this way. I am not sure an apology would help, but it certainly wouldn't hurt-- it would make me less concerned about them, at least, and their capacity to view me in any other way than the one who is always at fault/confused/weak in some way.
I know your situation is not my situation and your sister is not me, but it's tough for me not to project here, the templates are so similar. Maybe it will help see what she might be feeling?
Oh, one more thought. She may not be unhappy. She may just be unhappy when she is around your family. For now. I hope that is not a hurtful thing to say-- as I said before, I think she is acting something out and it isn't necessarily bad.
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Hello ceemee and everyone,
Ceemee, your original post has really got me going. I'll tell you that up front so you know it's me and not you :?.
There was a major riff in our family years ago. The pressure had built to the breaking point and finally burst. My H and I, after much pain and freaking out, were actually relieved not to have to interact with a few of the players anymore. We vowed never to interact with them again because people don't change. The "problem" person has BPD and we could not and do not trust her with our children. Besides her being a pain in the tush.
However.
We predicted an N leader in the family would want to "unring the bell" in the future even though he led the charge in trying to punish BPD for her outrageous behavior. He says later he thought he could "fix" the situation. Nothing was fixed (except the fact that H and I feel liberated). But the desired outcome was for BPD girl to fall in line. N and BPD were fighting to see who could write the family "script".
Time passed and sure enough N is hinting and guilting everyone to get back together. One big happy family. No thanks. (I suspect N's motive is to relieve his own guilt through "undoing" and that way he doesn't have to feel responsible.) The reduction of pain in my life is remarkable. I still have pain from dealing with the aging factor on said N. But after a couple of years of therapy since this fallout I now know what I'm dealing with, I have support, and I can choose how much, if any, I have to put up with. I don't have to do anything. I can choose not to. The realization that I have the ability to decide and deal with consequences is really empowering.
So, your sister, or anyone you know, can choose to flush their life down the toilet if they want to. (I share same suspicions re religious leaders--Pat Robertson, ahem?!) Moving from antagonist to rescuer isn't always an improvement. So what I'm trying to say is perhaps, live your own life and stay in touch with your sister in the way that does the least harm. Accept her the way she is.
Hope my story helps. I apologize if I sound strident. I am still sorting out how I feel about my brother and myself, for all of that!
Miss Piggy
PS just read vunil's post--great description of resisting the usual "roles" assigned to us by parents and siblings. I am currently resisting stepping in to "rescue" another member of my family who is feeling a lot of pain right now. I do feel for her and am resisting her unconscious desire for me to rescue her. It is her problem to deal with and nothing is changed if I become the receptable of her pain. I can't force her to change her decisions, ie. make her "deal with it". I am "helping" (?) by not helping. She needs to find more constructive solutions to relieving her pain that to hand it off to me. Jeepers, as I am writing this, I realize that one big problem with BPD above was she, too, was trying to hand off her problems and responsibilities to me. :shock: Lightbulb moment happening here, folks. And as with Vunil, other members want me to fall in line (to avoid being the approached to take this off her hands ie "you do it, help her, and then I don't have to feel guilty". Hope this makes sense. MP
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Hi Vunil :)
I was really sorry to read about your family's response to your ordeal. We just expect family to care about our pain. I have not experienced such blatant abuse, but I have experienced that kind of betrayal through invalidation. "What abuse? what are you talking about?" Sexual abuse is just so loaded with shame all around, no one wants to acknowledge it. That means admitting responsibility or at least collusion with the perp to some degree. I have read that it is extremely common for family members to heap abuse on the abused to shut up. Much akin to roughing up rape victims in court. It is f***ed up.
I have been so idealistic while growing up. I still try to think the best of people, but now that I'm an adult (?) I have to confront the fact that most people operate under the dynamics of power, not principles. Sometimes I even think the idealism I grew up hearing was just so much brainwashing to keep me in line.
OK gotta go. Take care everyone, MP
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Good luck, CeeMee! I am sure all of this must bring up a lot of issues for you.
I am happy your mother did confront the perpetrator at least-- it's not as if their response ever makes things better-- it's more the symbolism of the confrontation. I had this feeling when I told me parents that they would try to find the person who molested me-- it would be impossible all these years later and my memory is too fuzzy to be of much help-- I remember the abuse vividly, but not the person's face. I sort of dreaded the commotion as they confronted folks to try to punish whoever was responsible. When in fact they didn't even ask me what happened or even express any emotion about it, I was secretly disappointed. The little girl in me wanted someone to try to do something. So, I think confrontation can be good.
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most people operate under the dynamics of power, not principles
Yes, sigh, I think that's true. Or maybe better words are fear, insecurity, and need for self-aggrandizement. Maybe threat goes in there, too.
I should probably read more about responses to revelations of sexual abuse. It might help me to know that my story is common. I think, all these months later, I am just starting to process the response (none!) I got from my family- I realized last night I have not thought about it really at all since it happened, or at least very little. This list is really helpful to me-- thank you, CeeMee, for broaching this topic. We never (or hardly ever) get to talk about things from this angle-- how things look/feel to other family members when we try to deal with the N in our family. It does disrupt the apple cart quite a bit.
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Am I wrong to think she needs my help? (maybe that's the N tendency in me that always thinks I'm needed to save my younger siblings). Does this situation sound healthy to you?
We all need our siblings' help sometimes. The question is, has she asked for your help?
If she is in danger, what can I do to reach and help her? I realize my tough love attitude was wrong and I am prepared to take another approach.
I don't see her as being in danger.
My sister seems worse off today than I've seen her in a long time. She is in pain. She has been in the bed depressed for a few days. Possibly the result of me getting upset with her and totally ignoring her when she came to visit me last week. I wasn't at my best that day and not able to deal with her. Being her big sister, I know that she does not like to be on the outs with me. I love her SO much and worry about her so much that I don't like to be on the outs either. I worry a lot about the possible negative consequences, if I am not there to keep an eye on her. She is my baby sister and because she is so fragile, I always see her that way despite the fact that she is a grown woman.
She may play into the role of baby sister and unconsciously try to evoke strong dependency needs in both of you. Then she will reject your attempts at caregiving. This isn't healthy, so I would start resisting the urges to take care of her like a parent. Be available as an equal sibling - i.e., with the attitude that you are both adults. I admire your willingness to tell her you said some wrong things in your advice to her. If my sister could do that, I'd be incredibly grateful.
bunny
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Hi Ceemee, To use something from AA and Al-anon, your sister has her own higher power, her own path, and her own life lessons that she needs to learn. In all probabability, she will be ok. She seems to me to be taking care of herself in the best way she knows how at this time. Distancing from an abusive family situation is very normal in many stages of healing. Not having been raised in an organized religion, I don't have a prejudice either way about how good as people thel the paternall pastor and therapist wife may be, but they may be helping your sister reparent herself. If it all blows up, your sister has survived an abusive childhood where she didn't get her needs met and will probably survive this too, maybe even further along on the journey to healing.
I happen to think that the best thing we can do as siblings, as friends, as parents, and as spouses, is to let those whom we love know that we love them and that we respect them enough to let them have their own struggles and find their own answers. To me it is all about respect and boundaries. I can't give somebody my experience. I can share who I am, but everyone who is searching for emotional healing has his or her own process and time-table.
For me, that means shedding the old roles of birthorder, like "the big sister" or "the decisionmaker." I can relate to you because I am the oldest sibling and have some oldest child characteristics that can just come to the fore if I don't pay attention. If I am not aware that they are not appropriate, they can can wreck every day situations that don't require a decisionmaker...who needs a decisionmaker at a party, for instance? On the other hand, in an emergency, having that attribute can be helpful, if, and only if, I am the one there that is really qualified to make decisions. We can drag this birth order stuff around, sometimes unaware, until we have an epiphany and decide to stop with it already.
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As for sucking it up and getting on with it...that worked for me for a large part of my life. It might have continued working if I hadn't married mr. entitlement and by doing so, just re-ignited the same old flames of self-doubt and co-dependency. So now in my middling years, the palliative effects of sucking it up and getting on with it are not working. But talking here does help a great deal. The trouble with trying to be "strong" and getting over the past it is that we now have an an additional problem in our lives: we are dealing with the seriously disturbed one who has created the conflict in our lives and who can confabulate until the cows come home about how it is "not their fault" plus we have to fix ourselves so we can have a normal life. Who's going to survive intact? The seriously disturbed one or the one with the resources to suck it up? And, I guess the bottom line is why should we have to suck it up....OK,,,,I know :oops:....The proper term is "internalize it". Sucking it up just has that visceral connotation of what a lot of us have had to do.
Interesting that someone else uses the "suck it up" line. That is what I told my NPD/BPD wife in February after we had been through two years of non-stop medical crises (heart attack, stroke, heart surgery, heart arrhythmias) and when things were just getting back to normal she started in on how she was depressed and suicidal and needed to get therapy (which she uses as a weapon since no one has diagnosed her personality disorders to date.) I know it wasn't a very caring thing to say but I as in full blown PTSD after all the illnesses (I have a history of serious illnesses in my past relationships and family). I had been sucking it up through all six hospitalizations and I thought that finally I was going to get my turn at healing. But of course with her NPD she couldn't let the attention turn to me.
No sucking it up doesn't work real well in the long run, but it does get one through a crisis where falling apart is a worse option. At least that's what I learned in my family of origin. I think that now rather than suck it up, though, I would just excuse myself and say I'm sorry this is too much for me and you'll have to find another healthcare advocate. Then I would run, not walk, to therapy and take care of myself.
Despite my two years of devotion to her medical problems I am still be divorced on fault grounds of controlling and abusive behavior. I'm sure the "suck it up" line will come up in court.
So does anyone else "internalize"?
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the language, "sucking it up," "internalizing" "visceral" all connote the havoc one wreaks on his/her body when they hold things inside. a lot of this goes on with victims of Ns, seeking to avoid Nconfrontations. others, especially those of us who have recognized the disorder(s) in our undiagnosed loved ones, do the lionshare of the internalizing. what it does, i'm afraid is not just emotionally damaging, but can be, as wokeupatlast explains, deleterious to our own health. we should seek treatment for what ails us whether it be emotional or physical. "bottling it up," that's the stuff of heart disease, hypertension, stroke, and even cancer. worry and stress kill. we should find outlets and treatment therapies. our health is on the line, and despite our past pains, we owe it to ourselves, not our Nloved ones to stay robust (and for our nonNloved ones).
tif
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Wow wow wow! I am so happy for you and in awe of how well it went, how much you learned in such a short time just by reading and thinking and trying to figure things out, and, how well you enacted what you had learned when the time came. That was really brave and I am so happy it was fruitful. Sometimes those meetings aren't-- if your sister hadn't been processing things herself, she may have stared at you like you were insane, or felt uncomfortable, or something. She might have wanted you back in your old role.
Warm and fuzzy may be a lot to ask for after such an exhausting conversation, but in the absence of that I think things went as well for you as they possibly could. Congratulations. I love how your sister was able to be strong and firm in her conversation with you-- I bet as you all re-establish your connection that you'll actually enjoy her a lot more, and vice-versa.
Wow, again. Applause.
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I don't know. Just looking appropriately shocked is probably all she needed-- knowing others recognize that the abuse is horrible is very therapeutic (sounds weird, but it is). I would want to kick his ass, too. I hope your mother responds appropriately-- I get the impression your sister will wait until she knows she'll be ok even if the response isn't great before she tells her. I hope so, at least.
This must all be hard on you, too. Knowing that such an evil person was around.
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Hello Ceemee and Vunil,
C, when I read your post, I too was sitting here going "wow!" I think most of us here hope for these moments when the truth is allowed in the room. It's so encouraging when a strained relationship can move forward to effective communication. I agree with V that just listening, truly listening and acknowledging what you heard is enough. Not only is it enough, it can very often be better than responding with action.
I think it's natural that if we care about someone, we want to chase away their pain or reduce it somehow with whatever means (appropriate or otherwise) that we have. I used to wonder what to say to people in deep grief over a loved one's death. Then I learned through others that just sitting with other people with the pain in the room is one of the most giving things a person can do. It's hard because we're used to talking when we're with others, conversing, or something.
Again, WOW! this is just such a great step towards a new kind of sisterhood. Thank you for writing to us here about it. Take care, MP
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Hello Ceemee and Vunil,
C, when I read your post, I too was sitting here going "wow!" I think most of us here hope for these moments when the truth is allowed in the room. It's so encouraging when a strained relationship can move forward to effective communication. I agree with V that just listening, truly listening and acknowledging what you heard is enough. Not only is it enough, it can very often be better than responding with action.
I think it's natural that if we care about someone, we want to chase away their pain or reduce it somehow with whatever means (appropriate or otherwise) that we have. I used to wonder what to say to people in deep grief over a loved one's death. Then I learned through others that just sitting with other people with the pain in the room is one of the most giving things a person can do. It's hard because we're used to talking when we're with others, conversing, or something.
Again, WOW! this is just such a great step towards a new kind of sisterhood. Thank you for writing to us here about it. Take care, MP
(((Ceemee))) and (((Miss Piggy))) and (((Vunil))) I second all of it.
And Ceemee, when you say that you are going to let her handle it, that is so healthy. Your sis just needs your love and validation. Sometimes an expression of shock and silence is the best validation one can give.
I'd love to kick your step-father's butt into next year. I am sure all of us would.
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I sometimes wonder does any woman leave this earth without being sexually abused??
CeeMee
I know how you feel CeeMee, sometimes it just feels like the rot and sickness is everywhere. I look at everyone and wonder what their sordid story is.
I brought home a Shirley Temple movie for the kids (LittleMiss Marker) and only watched 15 minutes of it before I stopped it in disgust. I don't know if it was me or what. I saw her being presented as a sex object (yes! Shirley TEMPLE) and basically it all looked like child abuse to me! I can't tell if it is my own warped projections. The plot line was a child left by a gambler with a bookie as a marker (collateral) and the 'father' didn't come back for her. Has anyone seen this? Is it me? Have I hijacked? I'm sorry.
Anyway CeeMee, if there are women who have not been abused, I don't think this is the place to find them.
Plucky
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((((Ceemee)))) I don't think there is a woman who has not suffered some form of sexual abuse...if not in childhood, then at school, the workplace or out walking down the street.
I'm an incest survivor and it goes back many generations in my family. My daughter was molested by my ex husband after I had divorced him, so I had somehow managed to find a partner in my early 20's that would eventually turn out to be a perpetrator. My current hubby, not an abuser, is also an incest survivor. It goes back many generations in his family too. I used to cynically say that "it's the gift that keeps on giving."
With incest, there are three types of abuse. This is going to be rather graphic, so I will warn you in advance. I am using the mildest examples that I know of in my own particular family.
One is overt incest, where the perpetrator physically touches the child in a sexual way...or in a way that feels wrong and dirty...or where the perp gets the child to touch him.. My father in law used to have my sister in law bathe him when she was a little girl. He didn't touch her inappropriately, but he set her up to have to touch him and see him naked.
Covert abuse does not involve touch, but might include acts like leering, making dirty comments, walking around exposed or semi-exposed, calling the child sexualized names, telling dirty jokes. Three of my dad's favorite words for me were "slut, whore and tramp." He started calling me those names when I was about 8 or 9. He also took great pleasure in calling all women "stupid c*nts," a word I can't stand to this day. My father in law wanted to talk about my daughter's development in a very inappropriate way, leering at me all the while.
Emotional incest is when the parent expects the child to assume the parental role. My mother would confide her marital difficulties to me and ask my advice. I found out about Al-anon when I was about 10 and always suggested it. One of my mom's favorite comments to me was that I was her best friend and "If I can't trust you to listen to me, who can I trust?" That's pretty damn pathetic when a 40 year old is confiding that stuff to an 11 year old.
Of course, these three categories can overlap. When my mother talked about her sex life with me, that was covert abuse. If my dad came downstairs half naked in his underwear, called me names, commented on my cup size and then pinched my butt, that was overt incest.
From your reaction to your step dad, I firmly believe that he was covertly abusing you.
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I sometimes wonder does any woman leave this earth without being sexually abused??
CeeMee
I know how you feel CeeMee, sometimes it just feels like the rot and sickness is everywhere. I look at everyone and wonder what their sordid story is.
I brought home a Shirley Temple movie for the kids (LittleMiss Marker) and only watched 15 minutes of it before I stopped it in disgust. I don't know if it was me or what. I saw her being presented as a sex object (yes! Shirley TEMPLE) and basically it all looked like child abuse to me! I can't tell if it is my own warped projections. The plot line was a child left by a gambler with a bookie as a marker (collateral) and the 'father' didn't come back for her. Has anyone seen this? Is it me? Have I hijacked? I'm sorry.
Anyway CeeMee, if there are women who have not been abused, I don't think this is the place to find them.
Plucky
((((Plucky)))) Your observation of Shirley Temple is correct...you were right on. I read some articles about it and I was shocked. Later I saw a movie and just about barfed. They made the kid into a junior Mae West. I am sure Shirley's movies were a pedophile's dream.
Remember Jon Benet-Ramsey? Another barf when I saw the pageant videos. Another pedophile's dream.
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Amethyst,
thank you for those definitions. That really clarified things for me. I had no idea that risque comments and leering qualified as abuse.
And thanks for validating what I thought was my sick reaction to wholesome little Shirley Temple. Where are those ariticles? I am going to try to get the library to get rid of the movie. I feel nauseous.
Plucky
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Amethyst,
thank you for those definitions. That really clarified things for me. I had no idea that risque comments and leering qualified as abuse.
And thanks for validating what I thought was my sick reaction to wholesome little Shirley Temple. Where are those ariticles? I am going to try to get the library to get rid of the movie. I feel nauseous.
Plucky
Hi Plucky, Here are three from the web.
http://xroads.virginia.edu/~MA01/Lundy/childsexual.html
http://www.ndsu.edu/RRCWL/V5/ohm.html
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1285/is_1_34/ai_112482974
I believe the first article I read was in a magazine. The first here article shows pictures and there is absolutely no doubt that Shirley Temple was sexualized. In some of the poses she looks like an infantile Mae West. God knows, I love Mae West herself. She is hilarious and over-the-top, poking fun at her own stereotype. But it is sickening to turn a child into Mae West.
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Hi CeeMee, I am not an Oprah worshipper. I admire her accomplishments and think she did some fabulous work in films. I find her show interesting at times, but certainly not groundbreaking. I heartily dislike her magazine, O, but then I heartily dislke most women's magazines. On the other hand, her book club promoted some authors that would never have reached the best-seller list otherwise, so Oprah, or whoever reviewed and selected the books, showed great taste...the books were excellent. We don't see former associates or employees coming out and saying that Oprah was impossible to work for, the way we have with Rosanne and Rosie O'Donnell.
I know women that stop their lives to watch Oprah every single day. I have never been able to understand that.
I think that anyone as successful as Oprah probably has N characteristics. Whether her N characteristics are toxic, we probably never will know. The Hermes incident may shed some light on the "real Oprah" but on the other hand, it might have been a true misunderstanding. When someone says they always knew they were destined for greatness, that does get my hinky meter going....lol...that does sound pretty N. A person of great accomplishments but more modesty might say instead, "I consider myself extremely fortunate. I worked very hard and was clear about my goals, but basically I was in the right place at the right time."
What I am trying to say is there is narcissism in all of us. A good healthy dose of it is necessary for survival. Whether Oprah's is overboard, only time will tell.
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Amethyst,
Thanks for the insight. Where did you learn about the types of abuse?. Can you refer me to an article or book? This is all new information, and I need to process it. You've touched on some areas that are VERY close to home for me.
I found out about the types of incest at a retreat for incest survivors. We were given the definitions and the tools to name what had happened in our families of origin and understand why it felt so wrong. Of course, I was in touch with the overt incest and knew that was wrong, but to discover that there was all this other stuff that went on was earthshaking and also very empowering.
I have read many books. I primarily used The Courage to Heal because my father molested me many times, as well as indulging in the other two types. My mother was a covert and emotional incest abuser. I don't recommend the Courage to Heal as the first book or something to use unless you are in therapy or are getting some other type of support that deals with incest.
I can give you some booklists from Amazon, but I think the best thing is to go to a Borders or Barnes and Noble and go through their self help section on sexual abuse and incest. See if a particular book is addressing your issues, read it well first before purchasing.
Here is a booklist from Amazon on emotional and covert incest.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/listmania/list-browse/-/3BR60XNXG7YBP/102-3789340-2563312
Here is an article that mostly addresses overt incest. Believe me, the covert and the emotional is just as damaging.
http://vinland.org/scamp/institute/incest.html
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hey guys:
ceemee:
I guess what I am trying to understand is whether it is the abuse and suffering that most women experience growing up or is it some other factor(s), that cause(s) us to fall short
only recently have i begun to emerge from a 2 year regression regarding the sexual abuse i experienced as a child. i was 30 and was well on my way to success in my career and life when i was blindsided with the "reality" of my life. i guess my head had been "in the clouds" for the previous 15 years. i was convinced by my Nmother to push my sexual abuse incidents (there were three separate incidents before i was 15) into the back of my mind and succeed in spite of them. to make her proud, i did just that. classic overachieving, or shall i say overcompensating, is what followed. unless i became a superlative at whatever i attempted, i was not pleased with myself. i was able to accomplish much in the 15 years after the last rape incident until 2 years ago. i shut down. i gave up all my friends, i didn't leave the house much, i took up smoking marijuana in my basement and would be prone to fits of crying alone, for no obvious reason. i was emotionally unstable and quite needy for acceptance despite being withdrawn. my hubby and i were not communicating well, in the beginning, and i felt it was me against the world.
learning about NPD saved me. once i realized that it wasn't me, and that even the sexual abuse was the result of parental negligence and apathy, i began to come back to myself. i stopped thinking that there was something inherently nasty or sexual about me. i stopped thinking that i had a "abuse me" sign on my forehead and that all men were disgusting, innocence-stealing, girl-hating, one-track-mind bastards. dealing with the sexual abuse was key though. i'm still not through it, completely, though. i was really upset during the michael jackson trial, for some reason. i felt so sorry for the accuser and i just knew how things were going to turn out for him despite everyone's gut suspicion that mj probably did it. i projected i guess. i eventually got tired of crying and being sad all the time. i wanted happiness for myself and more importantly, i didn't want my 4 year old to grow up witnessing a depressed, pitiful, poor excuse of a mother. i need to be stable for her.
and amethyst: thank you for the eloquent derscriptions/explanations. i plan to check out the articles. i've experienced all three types of abuse and it really puts incest and sexual abuse during childhood in the proper prospective.
tif
oh, and hands-off oprah! i drank the kool-aid. i'm a card-toting lover of all things oprah! just kidding, she's been kinda weak lately with all the celebrity interviews and stuff and i haven't bought her mag in several months.... but nonetheless! :wink:
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Hello,
I don't know what I would do if I had to recover from sexual abuse as well as emotional. My dad is a weirdo for sure, and my mother engaged in some under the rader emotional incest with my brother, but that is just the sickest thing anyone can do to their own child. You are all in my prayers.
Amethyst, thank you for bringing up Michael Jackson trial. The whole thing was just an ugly mess. I had never seen such blatent pimping of kids (which is what I also think of the Jon Benet Ramsey parents that were mentioned somewhere.) I include the "character witness" parents as well as the victims' parents. I thought it was so interesting how MJ went from in-control celebrity, pointing and directing everyone around the metal detector during the hearings, to poor victim, as quick as he could jump in his jammies.
What I wished I had heard from someone is that, whether or not overt sexual abuse was happening, it was clear that he needed young boys for his own emotional gratification. Did anyone hear this mentioned?
Another interesting thing was when the verdict came in "not guilty" and the jurors couldn't look at him. I interpreted that to mean, OK, this case wasn't proved but we think you are an abuser. And the J family immediately declares that the jury found him "innocent of all charges." I also believe that the DA did the best he could regarding MJ. We don't want to convict such glittering stars. Even though the accuser's family had such low credibility, he brought it to trial anyway as the only way to expose everything going on and warn the community in a big way. (Interesting how Mesereau demanded that everyone refer to the boy as the accuser instead of victim...) Language is so powerful. Even if justice can't be obtained in the courtroom, these creeps need to be exposed.
I am positively addicted to TV trials esp with ones that feature heavy entitlement aspects. I will admit to feeling intense satisfaction seeing those above-the-law types brought down.
Oh and I like Oprah and think she is an N as well as an abuse survivor. I won't even look at her magazine though because of the obvious over the top vanity of putting herself on the cover every issue. Ugh! But perhaps she is dodging a whole political catfight about who goes on the cover etc. But there are other ways around it. She's pretty savvy and I admire that.
Please, if anyone finds articles about emotional incest and its effects on the whole family, please let me know. This is my second biggest issue is how I felt about this dynamic existing in my family. I absolutely HATE it. Thanks.
8) MP
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fits of crying alone, for no obvious reason.
Oh, Tiffany, I think there were some obvious reasons! I am so sorry about what you went through.
I was sexually abused (hey! another one! ceemee you are right it is ridiculously common) but it was only once, not incest, and was by a woman (I am straight). I think all of those aspects helped a lot in making it less of an issue-- not that it isn't an issue, but it is less of one. I think when incest is involved, and the abuse is repeated, the event has repercussions way beyond what any of us can imagine, even people who have been through it. I really salute anyone who has survived that. I am angry that so many women (and men) have had to survive it.
I had the same feelings about the Michael Jackson trial that you guys had-- I was not sure there was enough evidence to convict him, but I HATE him and I am sure he is guilty. I saw a magazine with pictures of all of the boys (some of them now teenagers and young men) who testified, either for him or against him. With few exceptions, they all looked exactly the same. He even has a type! It is so obvious he is guilty. Oh, he "loves children" but magically only boy children of a certain age who look exactly the same as each other. And these boys' parents sold them to him-- the parents ought to be ashamed, too. I was glad he had to endure a trial and I hope there are others, too. I can't even listen to his music any more.
Hey, just made the link between my situation and him. Duh. Isn't that funny how obvious links can be and we never make them. Most of the boys (maybe all of them, if I remember correctly) that he molested (or probably did) are not gay. So his situation is very similar to the one I went through. Hmmmm.... not sure the deeper meaning but it does explain why I want him humiliated and put away. And why I hate those parents so much.
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Hi Marta,
Well, I confess I felt a little panicked at your suggestion. Are you sure you want to get me started? :? But here it is in a nutshell. Maybe I am misusing the term "emotional incest", maybe it was only favoritism, but it was a very strong preference that my mother had for my brother while we were growing up. And BTW he acts just like my father. So at least she is consistent in her choice of men. Whenever my brother and I had a row or disagreement, she always took his side. She would even send me to my room while he gloated. I would scream bloody murder at the injustice. Which just made her more mad at me. Funny, when the men scream, they get results.
At times, my brother would fight her battles for her with my father. Maybe this is some kind of Oedipal complex of trying to kill off dad to get mom for himself. When brother got older, they would sometimes even flirt with each other which really made me puke. My H noticed it too. He puked too. When we were teenagers, father and brother were constantly battling and I mean battling each other. It was very common for me to walk in the front door to loud shouting matches and one of them stalking out of whatever room they were in. I would freeze and then go to my room (the one given to me because I'm spoiled--in brother's eyes I should be naked in a doghouse). My hands are cold as I write this. My mother will give stuff freely to my brother that she had already promised to my family. I can't figure out if it's because she really favors him or because he would roar if she gave anything of substance to me. If I uttered the slightest unflattering criticism of mother (what teenage daughter doesn't?) my brother would tattle and then mother would heap her own special brand of passive aggressiveness on me. Example: I mention I don't like a certain color to my brother, which is her favorite color, and next thing I know I am receiving clothes in that color. She would laugh a very mean laugh.
What really gets me too, now that the father abuse is on the table, is how brother thinks he is the most loved by mother and the most hated by father. He's special! It all happened, but only to him! Grrrr.
All of this has taught me "Don't ask for anything, don't expect any support, don't say what you think, don't inconvenience me, I shouldn't have to tell you, you should know I expect you to serve me and you are otherwise disqualified to be in this family." Buy hey, they're generous! On their terms.
A great moment was when my brother was heaping criticism on me for not having a summer job. I had no transportation and for crying out loud I wasn't supposed to ask. I calmly looked at him and said "if I get a job, how will I get there?" He just stared at me. "Will you drive me?" That was the end of that abuse episode. Score one for me. I remember feeling blown away that my mother tacitly backed me up (because she's traditional and doesn't work outside the home). The fact that I was surprised is consistent with my previous lack of support. This is why it's so memorable.
Oh wait there's more: this is one of mother's special surprise treats. My father likes to rage whenever any of us do something silly like make decisions for ourselves. Psychologists call it practicing individuation. Ironically my father would tell us to "be yourself". Isn't that nice? So whenever any of us lost our senses and took him at his word, rage rage rage. My mother wouldn't really be upset about whatever it was that we did, hmm can't think of examples right now, but she come down on us like a ton of bricks (this is the surprise) because he would express his dissatisfaction with us to her (of course probably making her feel like it was her fault or something). but her attitude is like "what are you thinking, making him so mad? You know what it like to live with that, so cut it out so I don't have a problem on my hands! Get back in line. Stop making my life difficult."
Amazingly, now that we're all out of the house, my relationships are much better with the both of them although I need still to manage the communication I have with both them and of course the N. They still have their special moments. I wonder how his wife feels about that. And this brother was the only one who protected me against the neighborhood bullies (we had quite a number on our street). So it's all kind of confusing at times. To this day, the sense of protection I get from my H is one of the things I value most about our relationship. Not in a "I get to beat her up, not you" sort of way, but a "I'm going to take care of you and keep you safe" way. This is very important to me even though I think I'm pretty self-reliant.
There is more humiliating stuff from my father, but I am not ready to post that. the only person i have ever told is my H. I don't write this to tantalize you, but to explain the depth of my feelings.
Okee dokee, there you go. MP
PS Marta, I've read a lot of your posts and you and Amethyst seem to have stories that overlap mine quite a bit. Well, I hope this helps. It's all rather crappy, but I look forward to getting it out of my system some day. MP
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Hi Marta,
Well, I confess I felt a little panicked at your suggestion. Are you sure you want to get me started? :? But here it is in a nutshell. Maybe I am misusing the term "emotional incest", maybe it was only favoritism, but it was a very strong preference that my mother had for my brother while we were growing up. And BTW he acts just like my father. So at least she is consistent in her choice of men. Whenever my brother and I had a row or disagreement, she always took his side. She would even send me to my room while he gloated. I would scream bloody murder at the injustice. Which just made her more mad at me. Funny, when the men scream, they get results.
At times, my brother would fight her battles for her with my father. Maybe this is some kind of Oedipal complex of trying to kill off dad to get mom for himself. When brother got older, they would sometimes even flirt with each other which really made me puke. My H noticed it too. He puked too. When we were teenagers, father and brother were constantly battling and I mean battling each other. It was very common for me to walk in the front door to loud shouting matches and one of them stalking out of whatever room they were in. I would freeze and then go to my room (the one given to me because I'm spoiled--in brother's eyes I should be naked in a doghouse). My hands are cold as I write this. My mother will give stuff freely to my brother that she had already promised to my family. I can't figure out if it's because she really favors him or because he would roar if she gave anything of substance to me. If I uttered the slightest unflattering criticism of mother (what teenage daughter doesn't?) my brother would tattle and then mother would heap her own special brand of passive aggressiveness on me. Example: I mention I don't like a certain color to my brother, which is her favorite color, and next thing I know I am receiving clothes in that color. She would laugh a very mean laugh.
What really gets me too, now that the father abuse is on the table, is how brother thinks he is the most loved by mother and the most hated by father. He's special! It all happened, but only to him! Grrrr.
All of this has taught me "Don't ask for anything, don't expect any support, don't say what you think, don't inconvenience me, I shouldn't have to tell you, you should know I expect you to serve me and you are otherwise disqualified to be in this family." Buy hey, they're generous! On their terms.
A great moment was when my brother was heaping criticism on me for not having a summer job. I had no transportation and for crying out loud I wasn't supposed to ask. I calmly looked at him and said "if I get a job, how will I get there?" He just stared at me. "Will you drive me?" That was the end of that abuse episode. Score one for me. I remember feeling blown away that my mother tacitly backed me up (because she's traditional and doesn't work outside the home). The fact that I was surprised is consistent with my previous lack of support. This is why it's so memorable.
Oh wait there's more: this is one of mother's special surprise treats. My father likes to rage whenever any of us do something silly like make decisions for ourselves. Psychologists call it practicing individuation. Ironically my father would tell us to "be yourself". Isn't that nice? So whenever any of us lost our senses and took him at his word, rage rage rage. My mother wouldn't really be upset about whatever it was that we did, hmm can't think of examples right now, but she come down on us like a ton of bricks (this is the surprise) because he would express his dissatisfaction with us to her (of course probably making her feel like it was her fault or something). but her attitude is like "what are you thinking, making him so mad? You know what it like to live with that, so cut it out so I don't have a problem on my hands! Get back in line. Stop making my life difficult."
Amazingly, now that we're all out of the house, my relationships are much better with the both of them although I need still to manage the communication I have with both them and of course the N. They still have their special moments. I wonder how his wife feels about that. And this brother was the only one who protected me against the neighborhood bullies (we had quite a number on our street). So it's all kind of confusing at times. To this day, the sense of protection I get from my H is one of the things I value most about our relationship. Not in a "I get to beat her up, not you" sort of way, but a "I'm going to take care of you and keep you safe" way. This is very important to me even though I think I'm pretty self-reliant.
There is more humiliating stuff from my father, but I am not ready to post that. the only person i have ever told is my H. I don't write this to tantalize you, but to explain the depth of my feelings.
Okee dokee, there you go. MP
PS Marta, I've read a lot of your posts and you and Amethyst seem to have stories that overlap mine quite a bit. Well, I hope this helps. It's all rather crappy, but I look forward to getting it out of my system some day. MP
(((Hi Miss Piggy)))
That flirtatious behavior between mom and brother is covert incest. My ex mother in law used to do it with my ex husband. It was sickening. My mother in law liked to try on my clothes and model them for the men in the family whenever we came to visit. One time she even stole one of my swimming suits and modeled it when we were in Florida. I am positive that she molested my ex, although he had no memory of it. Even though he knew cognitively and stated that his mother was incestuous, he still molested our daughter. Like I said,"Untreated incest is the "gift" that keeps on giving" generation after generation after generation.
My mother liked to dance to that raunch old song,"The Stripper" in a very suggestive way in front of the men folks. It was really disgusting. Yuck!! Covert incest. Even though the dance was primarily directed at my brother, followed by my father, since I had to witness it, she was victimising me too.
Because you were treated to a display of covert incest, you are also a victim. The feeling of yuckiness, or wanting to puke, is the tip-off that you have been wronged. If the behavior were normal, and not sexually suggestive, you wouldn't feel sick.
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Marta wrote: sorry if this discussion feels like having your thread hijacked, then we'll move somewhere else.
No need to move it elsewhere. This is great discussion. I have learned so much from all the posts on the board. Please continue on this thread if you want. This is all very valuable to many regardless of who started the post.
I have gone back and removed my personal posts and edited the intial post that started the thread though as I am now moving on to another board that addresses the concept of the "Drama Triangle." I am fascinated by this concept and see that it is very applicable to the dynamics of my own family. I expect to continue my research in that area.
I'll be checking back to hear about your journeys. It has been a pleasure. This is without a doubt the BEST board that I have been on. I have been on boards that DO NOT allow private messaging. I have been on boards that DON'T allow you to remove posts. This is the safest and most genuine board I have participated on.
Dr Grossman, thank you for creating this safe place and ladies thank you for your wisdom.
CeeMee
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CeeMee:
Please continue on this thread if you want. This is all very valuable to many regardless of who started the post.
Seriously seconded.
(((CeeMee))) take care of yourself, hope to read you again sometime