Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: vunil on September 05, 2005, 01:29:07 PM
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Hi, gurus--
Soon I'll give birth, and my parents are coming to visit. They will be here quite awhile but are not staying with me (this is ok with all of us-- let's them have some privacy and get some rest and vice-versa).
We have been recovering from a confrontion about 10 months ago or so that I initiated. I think things are better and I doubt they will bring anything that happened then up. But there have been signs of things improving, signs that I will never point out because it is very important to them that they were right (about all things, always) and I was wrong. Apologies, etc. have to be on their will never admit personal failing. It's basic N shame stuff. They are in the same vein as most people's parents here, better than some for sure, but along a lot of the same lines. They are not hopelessly abusive to me, though, and I am interested in having a relationship with them.
In general, if stress of any kind occurs, things get worse. Their first instinct is to get very grandiose, and my father especially gets very "authoritative" in a way that is aggravating in the extreme. He uses a tone of voice that implies the utmost in patronizing irritation and superiority and he says my name a lot. It is so annoying! Vunil, this, Vunil, that-- the whole tone is sort of "here is the final word." The final word is magically the opposite of what I have just said.
Ok, so here's the deal: I am a very active democrat. My politics mean a lot to me and help define who I am, who I hang out with, what I read, etc. I guess many of us are like that. I do try to be open to other points of view, and I read many sources, but I have my allegiance and feel comfortable with it. This is not to say I don't have problems with individual policies, etc of democrats-- I am not of the "this is my team no matter what" ilk, although I'll admit to right now having very negative feelings about what is going on in our country.
My father is a conservative of the listen-to-Rush-Limbaugh (and believe everything he says) variety. So we clash in two ways-- I personally hate really partisan yelling sort of media (even if it is "on my side") and I am really not a fan of the politics Rush espouses (understatement aletr). Worse, to my dad politics is more about my-team versus your-team than any particular issues, so when he talks about the issues he has no idea what he is talking about (e.g., discussing the "democratic congress" with me a few months ago, claiming that al queda's main operations are in Iraq, etc). It is more than just disagreeing, it is the irritation of having someone say (for example) "Vunil, the Iraqi constitution was ratified months ago and there has been peaceful democracy there ever since" or whatever. Oh, ok.
I feel positive that when he is here he is going to try to bait me. There is too much in the news for him not to. Cindy Sheehan, for one-- I will be filled with fury if he even says her name to me because I just can guess his patronizine belittling tone about her. His take on the NO situation is likely to be racist and blame-the-victimish. He has for over a year proclaimed amazing victories in Iraq and will no doubt continue in that vein. I am sure he will tell me Afghanistan is now a peaceful playground of success.
Now, I know not everyone agrees politically here, and I'm not asking to start an argument about my politics versus his. I am just trying to outline the situation. There is no sense having a conversation with him-- he just wants to be mean about the thing that matters to me, and he knows nothing about details to even have a good conversation anyway. I have tried providing evidence (e.g., the speaker of the house is not a democrat, so democrats don't control the house) but he is not remotely interested in evidence. It is very similar to how people talk about football teams-- my team is better than your team. I don't understand football rivalries, either :)
So how do I steer the conversation in a different direction? I have tried just telling him I won't talk politics, and he responds with something like "that's because, Vunil, John Kerry never even served in Viet Nam" or something like that. He won't stop. He is gleeful in his inability to stop. I never bring it up, but he always does.
So, help. I am going to be vulnerable anyway and need some rules for myself. I realize that this is a topic that just hits me where I live, and I guess he realizes it, too.
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I'm a conservative. With that being said, my very conservative Mom can get on my nerves when she quotes Rush. What I do to keep my sanity....let her ramble about it and act like I'm listening when I'm not. Don't get me wrong, I love my Mom dearly and she isn't N but sometimes she goes to extremes with the political rhetoric.
Sometimes we just have to bite our tongues. I think it's safe to say that our folks are set in their ways at this stage of life and anything we say to convince them otherwise is going to fall on deaf ears. It's not worth the effort, IMHO.
good luck.
PS. I'm a big fan of conservative talk radio but Rush irks me to no end. Don't know why....he just does.
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Hi, gurus--
I will never point out because it is very important to them that they were right (about all things, always) and I was wrong. Apologies, etc. have to be on their will never admit personal failing. It's basic N shame stuff. ...I am interested in having a relationship with them....
In general, if stress of any kind occurs, things get worse....
The final word is magically the opposite of what I have just said. ...
My politics mean a lot to me and help define who I am...
to my dad politics is more about my-team versus your-team than any particular issues, so when he talks about the issues he has no idea what he is talking about ...
I feel positive that when he is here he is going to try to bait me....
I will be filled with fury if he even says her name ...
There is no sense having a conversation with him-- he just wants to be mean about the thing that matters to me, and he knows nothing about details to even have a good conversation anyway. ...
I have tried just telling him I won't talk politics,...
I never bring it up, but he always does. ...
I am going to be vulnerable anyway and need some rules for myself. I realize that this is a topic that just hits me where I live, and I guess he realizes it, too.
Hi Vunil, I feel for you. But I think the answers to your questions are embedded in your post. I will summarise:
There is so use talking to him about this.
Under stress, which you will have, things will just be worse.
He will bait you (and it sounds like you are all primed to go off when he does).
He can never admit when he is wrong.
If you say you don't want to talk about it, he won't respect that.
I would attack on two fronts:
1. Play the vulnerable new mother. Say that you are sooo tired, soooo stressed, you don't need any more stress, and you need to focus on the baby. It is not good for babies to drink milk from a stressed out mother.
2. Just don't listen and don't respond. Have you ever had a therapist who just said uh-huh and 'how do you know that'? and 'how does that make you feel?". Limit yourself to these responses. But most of all, try not to listen. You know his whole repertoire anyway, what is the point of listening? You could conduct his side of the 'argument' on your own anyway.
Realise that your dad has not impact on anything. Unless he contributes in the 6 figures to the Republicans, what impact does he have? His VOTE? We saw clearly by now that voting is not always the way the winning candidate is chosen. Also, does he have a talk show? No? Well, all he has is you to try and influence. Do you think he will be effective in this?
"I would love to continue to beat this dead horse with you, but I need to get some rest/nurse the baby/eat/poop/whatever".
You know how when a storm is coming somepeople unplug the televisions? Your storm is on itsway. Unplug the umbilical cord leading from your parents to your anger. Easy to say but hard to do. When it gets too tough, come up here. If they ask what you are doing, say banking or looking up baby questions or managing his gift register.
Good luck.
a gurulike
Plucky
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Hi vunil,
I'm the same way, have political leanings (I'm fairly purple) and plead guilty to occasional blindness, but hate the my side is better than your side loyal party soldier crap. I was so impressed when one staunch R TH said how mad he was at Bush right now. wow, how refreshing to step away from knee-jerk support for status quo!
You could try saying (you be the judge), hey, dad, do you really want to talk about politics or just disturb the doo-doo? Both my FIL and father are the same way, except my FIL knows its a game and will laugh when called on it. If I said this to my own father, he would--at best--look at me with surprise like did I say something? Why did you say that?
Here is another old stand-by which I learned from the Ns: That's YOUR opinion (said with a big, big smile) :D :D :D
Another one that came upon me in a moment of true inspiration is when my father was hinting at a reunion/family gathering with my abusive SIL. He wasn't direct about it, so I had the opportunity to say "Good luck with that!" Another line I have used when he is denigrating people is "I'm not going there with you, dad."
So...good luck with that! :D Hope this helps, MP
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Vunil - you might try 'fogging' - an assertiveness technique from way back when. Just agree with everything they say. "You're absolutely right!" "Couldn't agree with you more, Dad!" and so on. It doesn't really feed the beast, because it gives them nothing to latch on to... because if they know what you think and why, then their continuing to raise contentious subjects is really about stimulating conflict, and if you don't let conflict get stirred up, you take all the fun out of it for them. Might be worth a try, if you can keep from grinning ear to ear while you're doing it...
just caught MP's post which came up while I was working on this one. Excellent suggestions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ditto Plucky's.
Mia, I've listened to Rush, and he seems mean, a lot of the time. As though he likes 'getting' people. That, to me, isn't what conservatism is about - maybe that is what bothers you? Just a thought.
Hugs,
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Great help, everyone, thanks! I think I need to disengage more-- Plucky you are right that deep in my heart I believe it is important to correct his misconceptions (not his values/views, but any misconceptions of fact). Why in the heck to I believe that? You are right, he isn't in charge of anything. Who cares what he thinks?
I am going to use all of these techniques. I knew the gurus could help me :) Any more advice anyone has, please bring it on. This has to be a topic most of us have grappled with-- it's such a source of conflict...
Mia, I think the problem with Rush is he doesn't even try to pretend he is making real arguments. He has that snide tone of voice-- I can always tell when my dad got his "information" from him because there is no way in heck to have a clue what is really going on-- my dad will announce something like "did you know that in tennessee it is illegal to wish someone "merry christmas?"
Now, there is no way this is true. But I can hear Rush saying it, in this "I am superior" sort of voice. My dad actually imitates his style when he baits me. Oh- blood pressure going up just thinking about it!
I guess people on this list might be especially bugged by the guy (Rush) because he is so N! He has been married 4 times or something and just seems personally unappealing. He makes me think of the blowhard who corners you at a party to give some long speech about something you don't care about, standing too close, drunk.
To me :) But I am not predisposed to like him. There is an interesting mobius strip, I realize, going on between me, my dad, and Rush-- I think my dad talked to me in that same Rushian tone of voice in childhood.
Just so you know this is NOT a partison rant-- There is plenty of liberal media that strikes me the wrong way too-- my brother gave me a subscription to Mother Jones and I skim it but it is just too "the establishment is evil" for me to take it seriously. I mean, the entire establishment can't be evil. We all established it, after all ;)
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vunil,
i dont know if this will happen for you, but it happened for me. before i gave birth i was one person. then after, a lot of things in me changed. like at a certain age your wisdom teeth come in.... i have no idea if this happens to all mamas or what..... really i truly dont........ but to me it was like, my mama teeth came in. suddenly.... i was different.
i had claws and teeth i didnt know i had. things i would have been uncertain about, afraid of, doubting myself over, i had no time for. it just didnt matter anymore.
you may have a similar shift in values/tolerance in a way thats impossible to predict. your mama teeth may come in :} and you may know just what to say to shift focus off the valueless crap you all used to argue about becuase you will have something much more incredibly important to think about........ and thats how it should be...... and if your parents are not completely clueless they may also feel the same. theres something extremely humbling about a new baby.
(besides exhausting and draining and distracting) it may really be you will have more ability to 'cut the crap' than you gave yourself credit for previously... i hope so! there you will be with your little one, you may have physical pain you may be exhausted, and it may suddenly be a whole lot easier to look at your dad and say 'you know what, can it pops, i have diapers to change.'
i hope so.
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Forgive me. I haven't read all the responses word for word but you brought up a contentious issue in my family on two levels. It's sort of like the good news and the bad :lol:
My husband delighted in talking about politics not only US politics but world politics neither of which are a source of joy in my day. I like to talk about politics but not compete in who can articulate the most accurately about what is going on in the world. I would always smile and nod and then say, whoops! I think the roast needs to be taken out of the oven.
My daughter, on the other hand, is so liberal compared to my conservatism, that we could probably produce enough energy to heat all the houses in our village if it were channeled. The big difference is that I don't need to rely on that roast in the oven. We just agree to disagree and continue on with living. In other words, neither of us takes it personally and, indeed, our differences politically provides great material for for humor....(I have accused her of hugging any tree in sight and she has inspired me to look up some questionable liberal web sites which are interesting but I won't admit that to her right away :lol: )
So....Do you knit? Knit while he's talking and then when he wants a response say, oh drat, I dropped a stitch. Or admit total ignorance. Never mind, that will just keep him expounding...Say you feel you need to throw up, or you feel a contraction, or is that a water pipe I hear bursting? Or maybe you could teach him to play solitaire on a computer located far away.... You're pregnant....the world of excuses is your oyster and you already know what he is doing and that seems to be to appear to be the center of any gathering by talking politics. To give him the benefit of the doubt in terms of his sustaining a relationship with anyone, talking politics may be his only way of doing so. Either way, you are fine and it appears, he is definitely constricted to only certain topics of conversation. I hope you're not a vegetarian or that "roast in the oven" won't work but you'll think of something :)
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My dad was to the left of Rush, but he had the same hating and don't bother me with the facts attitude. To my dad the world was full of idiots that he looked down on. I was one of those idiots. So was my mom. He could ruin any occasion with his rants.
I finally figured out that I could hook into something he was saying and actually ask a question about what his experience had been with the particular subject. Things changed when my dad began actually talking about himself instead of expounding and pontificating.
For instance, I found out that one summer during the Depression that my father had lived in a culvert surviving on things like peanut butter and crackers and food donated by his friends when his very wealthy mother abandoned him to run out of town to take care of her mother. :shock: He was 17 and was not allowed to go home, so he had to stay in Madison, Wisconsin during the summer without food and without shelter. He then got a job at the Commons and the chef fed him.
My dad would rant about the government and how bureaucratic it was...how idiotic...yadayadayada. No matter who was in and who was out, he foamed at the mouth. I found out that after he graduated from college during WWII, he would have to take the bus out of town every three months for a draft physical. My dad was almost legally blind...totally 4-F. He wanted to serve, but he was rejected every time. He would spend two days commuting, going through the physical, standing naked in a cold Wisconsin armory, and at the end of the physical would come the vision test where he could not even make out the biggest letter at the top of the chart without his glasses. He went through this for years. I had to agree with him that it was idiotic and what were they thinking????
I found out there was some basis in his own experience for almost every hateful thing he said. In the end, by not rising to disagree, I learned a tremendous amount of family history....some good and some bad, all of which has been helpful for me to untangle some of the things that have always puzzled me about myself.
Another thing I learned to do was to change the subject to the here and now, what was right in front of us. By the time my dad was old and enfeebled, our relationship was pretty friendly. He even made an amends to me, as much as he could. When that happened, I was shocked.
I had much more of a problem with my mother, who was heavily invested in her controlling behaviour and sideways anger. She never let go of being the martyr. Even though my father had been the overtly abusive parent when I was a child, my mother's continuing covert abuse was why I had to go to n/c.
I don't know if this will be helpful or not, Vunil. I respect that every family has different dynamics. The most important thing to do is take care of yourself and your little one...even if it means cutting short the parental visit.
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it's ok to say 'I'm not interested in/ discussing politics right now'.
( repeat ad naseum )
If there's one time of life it's a good idea to be self-absorbed and forget about the outside world- it's being a new nursing mother.
A wonderful time of life!
Take care ((((((((((())))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
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Hey Vunil,
I just thought of a possible curveball. And thank you for this grrreat opportunity to kibbutz. I must say I am getting tremendous vicarious thrills with this thread. :D
Say: Dad. You are the greatest. I am so glad that you are thinking ahead and anticipating Junior's education as a future voter! Do you think the bipartisan system will stand as it is, or will it evolve into something more meaningful?
Pretty please? Tell me if he freezes up with confusion, or blows up because you blindsided him, or if he really musters up an improv performance of channeling Ronald Reagan or something. Oh pleeeeeease! :D And have a pinata of an elephant and a donkey ready and hand him the stick while you feed the baby. Fantastic photo opportunities!! And if you can hang Ross Perot in effigy, more family fun!
If you can't just dismiss him as a crank, have fun with it. Since you know what to expect and he doesn't, you can plan plenty of surprises complete with goodie bags. It's your civic duty to usher in this new young American life properly! Miss Piggy is counting on vous!
8) MP
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You guys are helping a lot! Now if only I could really learn how to do all of this.... I have a little time (about a month at the most).
Clearly I am terrible at it so far-- note my behavior on the other threads. Argh. I am going to try to get the sense of humor you guys have about this stuff! Why do I take it so SERIOUSLY? It is almost like it gives me a split personality or something.
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It is almost like it gives me a split personality or something.
Hey Vunil, when I experience this wierd split personality feeling, I know that I'm in trigger city!!! :shock:
:D
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Oh Lord, I am about to put my foot in it big time...
I worry more, most of the time, about people not taking things seriously enough. When it's early enough to do some good. "Oh, it's just a phase." "He'll get over it." "She didn't really mean it." When it isn't, and he won't, and she did, oh boy did she ever. Etc.
I've seen so much abusiveness tolerated in this world because people refused to engage and take it seriously. So much suffering blown off. So much meanness disguised as 'humor'... and the first response of the emotional abuser, when exposed, is almost always to claim that they were 'joking' [see Patricia Evans' books if not believing Stormchild.] So much damage done.
And of course, to tolerate abuse is to reward it. There isn't any neutral ground where abuse is involved... people wish there was, but there isn't. It's a progressive disease, it doesn't plateau and stay at one level. If you ignore it, it escalates. Always.
I don't mean that we should all be grim and deathly and live grey lives through clenched teeth - not at all. But I do think that it's easy to use laughter as an excuse to avoid dealing with unpleasant realities by pretending that to laugh at them is to have dealt with them.
Having said that - sometimes you have to laugh in order not to cry, and sometimes laughter really is not only the best medicine, but the most scathing weapon. Satire. Political cartoons. Etc.
And nope, this doesn't invalidate the earlier advice I gave about using 'fogging'; because the fogging technique involves both a verbal and a nonverbal message. The verbal message of pleasant noncommittal agreement is just the social lubricant that prevents the donnybrook, or kerfuffle, or whatever, from becoming overt; the nonverbal message is in the reiteration of the verbal message. And it translates as: "No. Not this time. Not beyond this point. Off limits. Nope. Uh-uh. I have taken what I care about, and put it deep into my heart, beyond your reach. You cannot go there."
Sorry for the riff; carry on, folks.
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Just a little follow-up late at night-- my mom is here, and it seems we agree mostly on everything political as long as nothing is labelled by party lines and the current administration is not mentioned. It is really interesting (and nice). As long as we talk about stem cell research (she is for, like me) or Terry Schiavo (she thought the parents were dillusional, as I did) or teaching evolution and not intelligent design (she thinks ID doesn't belong in science class, as do I) then we are completely and utterly in agreement. If I were to mention that Bush does not agree with any of her positions it would be a disaster, but if I keep it all outside of "teams" then it is going fine. Whew. With my dad I am going to use fogging and humor and such because he is too aware of sides to talk particular issues. But I am really happy so far with how things are going. And surprised!
We only talk about the hurricane is general terms-- the "government" let them down. She is thinking of the local government and I am thinking more of FEMA but if we don't ever say that directly it works fine :)
Thanks, guys. Your advice helped a lot. I am also going to try the advice to talk about particular issues in terms of her history and experiences, to find out where her thoughts/feelings come from. I think that is great advice, as long as the person is not hopelessly NPD in which case they don't have personal histories in the way others do and the conversation would just be manipulative (she does not have NPD). If nothing else, it would be interesting to hear.
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Yaye!
plucky