Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Gail on September 28, 2005, 10:57:50 PM
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I am new to the board and new to the concept of narcissism. A friend gave me a book, "Why Is It Always About You?" as she thought it would help me understand my ex. Well, that was no problem. He's easily identified. But, now I'm realizing more and more that my way of relating to people is dysfunctional. In a nutshell, I'm willing to put up with a tremendous amount of mistreatment, am abnormally afraid of being thought poorly of, and way too "nice", all the while worrying that I'm being a b****
I understand now that these were coping mechanisms I developed to survive my childhood and I'm very aware of the need to change and to respect myself and my feelings. However, it's hard to teach old dogs new tricks so I suspect this is going to be a challenging process.
Part of that is realizing I may have jumped from the frying pan in to the fire. I've been involved with a man for two years who I think is also an N, but I can't seem to totally trust my judgment. Is this common? I feel I've gone from a N parent, to an N husband, and now an N boyfriend who has many characteristics of the N parent. If I explain how something he's doing is hurtful, he tells me I'm being critical and that I must want to end the relationship. I get the feeling that he wants the relationship to end but, for some reason, wants me to bear the responsibility for it ending.
Does this sound familiar to anyone?
Gail
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Hi Gail,
Welcome to the board!
Trusting one's judgment comes through healing the hurts and pains of a childhood with a N. Step by step you will gain more confidence in your judgment and trust yourself.
Your boyfriend sounds my h who is not N but an abuser. Any confrontation is considered an attack on him personally. My h grew up with four N's and has lots of N traits.
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Of course it sounds familiar because we have all been dragged into that game by abusers and NPD parents.(The game to which you refer can be called 'the switch and blame' game) It is SOP for NPDs and other assorted abusers. They will attempt to redirect the onus back onto you - as if you are overly critical,too sensitive, unfairly judgemental and altogether, a pain in the ass. You come out feeling like not only have you not been heard, but carrying blame,shame and guilt for speaking your mind in the first place. This 'switch' tactic is abusive and has no place in adult loving relationships. You are connected to an abuser( possibly NPD) and if you stay you can look forward to many more charming events of this type..
Move on....David P.
(BTW, please do not ask your abuser to read these replies in the hope that he will 'see the error of his ways' and be transformed into your dream man. It NEVER happens unless he crashes and burns and cries out for help and is then willing to do the work to re-invent himself - not likely)
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Dear Gail,
My instict says that if whenever you tell him that something he does is hurtful you are then accused of being critical and wanting to end the relationship, that even if he is not N it will be very hard and probably impossible to have a relationship with him that is not hurtful to you. It is really good that you are telling him things that are hurtful that he does thereby standing up for yourself but I admit to being really concerned because he just gets defensive about it --- you don't end up being heard!!!!! For me when I start worring is this person an N it is a signal that whether or not they are an n, the relationship is just really bad for me. I think it's really good that you are able to explain how what he is doing is hurtful and you deserve someone who could listen to you and work on treating you in a better way, not someone that is so defensive that you just end up even more hurt!!!!!!!!
Bloopsyrose
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Welcome Gail,
If you were raised in a family with n's, you are very susceptible to getting into relationships with them as well. My father was n and I married 2 n men and am now divorced from both. What has helped me to realize this and now hopefully not repeat the same pattern, is 2 years of therapy. I'm not sure if you have ever experienced therapy, but I recommend it to help heal those deep seated wounds from your childhood that made you vulnerable to men who are emotionally unavailable, liars, and basically in need of a lot of fixing.
I wish you well on your journey.
Brigid
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Thank you very much to those who replied to my post. I know in my gut that I need to pull the plug on the relationship. I'm anticipating a time of grieving as I care for this man very much. He brought a lot of adventure to my life and, for awhile, was the bright spot in a difficult time. I can see, too, that I looked to him for validation after my marriage ended. I wasn't just a middle aged displaced homemaker with a passel of kids to care for. I had a handsome boyfriend who found me attractive. But, the pain of trying to continue this relationship on his terms is outweighing the positives. I've had to face that I've, yet again, chosen someone who doesn't really care for me as a person. He likes the way I look and enjoys my company, but it's really about what I can do for him, not a reciprocal relationship.
Please pray for me--that I will have the courage to end this and go on. And especially that I can be the example my children need and have the strength to deal with the ongoing stress of dealing with an N-xh.
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Dear Gail,
My prayers are definiteley with you and I know that you can do it. It sure is hard to let go of someone even someone who has hurt you so much but you have a lot of support here!
Love
B
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Hi Gail,
Welcome to the board. I think one big thing it took me a looooong time to understand was...I have rights, too! A healthy relationship isn't about "who gets to [fill in the blank]". It's about supporting each other. Not leaning on each other, but standing together. But you have the right to be treated with respect.
My d is in a friendship right now that is very difficult. Her friend is on again/off again. The others see this and think she is willing to be treated like a doormat by anyone. She keeps wondering what she is doing wrong. I tell her to NOT expect this treatment, to be INDIGNANT when it happens, to SPEAK UP about what's bothering her, and to MOVE ON if it continues. People don't change, but you can change yourself.
I also had to leave an extremely abusive situation. I felt like the "bad guy" for doing the leaving. Until I realized that I just wanted off the drama triangle. People who leave the drama triangle can be perceived as the bad guy (antagonist) but they are not. It's just the only way off. Basically I had to realize consciously that "I am not a bad person because I need to save myself. I am not a bad person just because I cannot help this person, because helping this person is harming me. There will be someone else who might be better able to help this person. Regardless, I need to leave because the present situation doesn't work for both of us." And when that wore out I thought "OK I'm a jerk [according to the other person]. Why would [other person] want a huge jerk in their life?" In others words, in your case, you can tell BF "OK I'm just so critical. Guess I'm doing you a favor by leaving."
It might help to think in terms of the relationship as a third party. How is the relationship doing? How does the relationship feel? Sometimes relationships just run their course. It doesn't mean either one of you is a bad person at all. Perhaps you can both just appreciate the time you had together and you are both growing and moving in different directions.
Just some random thoughts. You may just want to take some time to find out who you are all by yourself. I have tons of hobbies and interests that don't include my H or kids. Not that I ignore them. I just really enjoy a few different things than they do. So meet your new best friend: you.
Again, welcome! Miss Piggy
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Oh God, it hurts so much I can hardly breathe. I sent the e-mail (we live quite a distance apart which is another hard thing about the relationship for me logistically) explaining that the relationship was just too painful for me to continue under the circumstances. (Those circumstances being he has insisted on keeping his profile up on multiple personal sites despite us being together for two years and requires me to initiate almost all contact. He also requires me to pay for half of any activities we do together, despite his much, much higher net worth and income, and my obligation to be the primary support of 5 children with much more limited means.) His response again was that it was normal for me to feel critical after 2 years--that he was perfectly happy with me and would miss me. But, since I felt the way I did, it was better to end it and go on to the next thing...
I started to explain myself, again, with a return e-mail. It feels so unfair that he should put this all on me. He takes no responsibility for the end nor shows any understanding of my feelings. He said my reasons are just rationalizations--biology at work causing me to feel critical after a certain time.
Reason prevailed and I cancelled the e-mail and didn't send it. He's got an IQ of 140. Surely, he's smart enough to understand why things as they stand are so hard on me.
Now what? I guess I just hang in there and try to work through the pain. I sure wish I hadn't jumped into another relationship so soon after my divorce. My neediness made me very vulnerable. On the bright side, at least now I understand naricissism and that my ability to tolerate mistreatment and a high level of pain is not a healthy character trait.
I thought about what one of you said--that feeling shame and confusion after an interaction are part of this sickness. Well, I'm definitely feeling those emotions. I'm asking myself, "Gee, maybe I should have accepted the personal sites thing. After all, he said it was just for entertainment--that he had no intention of actually meeting anyone. And maybe it wasn't such a big deal for me to have to call him all the time. After all, my long distance is "free" and he never knows if I might still be busy with the kids. And, of course he doesn't understand my concern about how it looks to my children for us to be spending nights together and travelling together, and what example that sets for my teenage daughters. After all, he's never had children and has no interest in interacting with mine.
He's always told me that he would never leave me--that if the relationship ends, I will be the one to do it. But I feel manipulated into doing so. Then, I doubt if I am reading the situation accurately.
This is very hard.
Gail
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As I think through all this today, I realize there was much more that made me feel diminished as a person.
For example, almost every time we were together the last several months, he made a dig about my weight. Now, I'm 5'5" and wear a size 8. Not exactly skin and bones, but certainly normal weight. I was proud that I still had a figure at my age and after bearing so many children, but found myself dissatisfied with my appearance, and just waiting for the next comment. He finally told me he would prove to me that I was heavier than when we met by showing me pictures of two years ago. I might be a pound or two heavier, but nothing significant. Still, it left me fighting to feel OK about my physical appearance.
If I picked out the movie, it was almost never any good. If I was reading something, he'd ask me why I always had my nose in a book. He picked out the TV shows we watched. Mine were always "awful". I had a contract to do some professional writing. He criticized it, telling another person, in front of me, that my writing style was terrible. My children were irresponsible, my house was plain, my hair was too short, my waist too thick, my driving was terrible, and so on. He once cursed at me, using the f word, for accidentally putting a stick in a wood stove that was his special fire stirring stick. Accidentally burning his 20 year old can opener's cord on the stove was another offense that deserved a tirade. He called me "Blubbering Gail" when I shed a few tears after being terrified about driving in a snowstorm when I couldn't see out of the windshield on an unfamiliar freeway, then ridiculed me about it in front of someone else. He told me repeatedly that I had too much self confidence--that I thought I could do anything, but really was inappropriately sure of myself. Most of my decisions he second guessed--important ones like how to sell my old house, or what employment I should choose.
Of course, it didn't start out like this or we wouldn't have been together for 2 years. We had some really wonderful adventures together. We enjoyed each other's company. We'd talk for hours at night on the phone about all sorts of different, interesting topics. Isn't that what makes letting go hard--when there is so much good that it almost makes the bad bearable?
It helps to get it all written down where I can see it.
Gail
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Hi Gail,
He told me repeatedly that I had too much self confidence--that I thought I could do anything, but really was inappropriately sure of myself.
That's the crux of everything right there.
These people are, at heart, terrified little children. They are just quivering blobs of insecurities, almost always masked by bravado and sarcasm and claims to great competence and insight. And so they can't stand actual self confidence in others; it makes them jealous.
The good times were just a worm on a hook to reel you in.
Change your e-mail and phone number and your address if you have to. If you don't sooner or later he'll try reeling you back in again. This geek is a classic N.
BTW a 140 IQ doesn't help much when his emotional age is single digits.
Maybe you could look for a guy who's as dumb as a stump but loves your kids next time. :P Just make sure you wait a good long while before you start looking.
mudpup
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Oh my goodness, ditch this guy!! why think twice?
Many smart people think they're the greatest, but really do not have Clue One about relating. They think it's all about them. I think he's whipped the guilt on you because his experience has shown that even the nicest people can only put up with him for two years.
Ugh. I"m sorry you're hurting. MP
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Thanks to you both of the mp's for your support. I'm feeling rather weepy right now as this is the time of night that BF and I usually talked. I was supposed to go visit him for the weekend tomorrow. I re-read his last e-mail to me and it's so sad because he talks about me dumping him, yet he was perfectly happy with me. I know he genuinely did enjoy our times together as I also did. We went skiing in Colorado, jeeping in Utah, went to Alaska, went on long road trips to visit both sets of parents, canoeing, to museums, concerts, movies. He gave me an escape from the constant demands of caring for so many children--something to look forward to. And now I'm turning my back on all that.
I have to keep reminding myself. This is a man who said he would "feel trapped" if he took his personal ads off the dating sites, that it made him feel like I "was an enemy" and "pissed him off" when I told him how bad it made me feel to read that he was hoping to find someone to share his life with. I was supposed to accept that didn't mean anything, that he was single and had every right to that form of entertainment. I'm thinking that would be a deal breaker for any woman with a shred of self respect.
I don't think he'll contact me again. He said it was best that, since I was so critical, the relationship end and that we be able to move on to the next "thing, whatever that may be." I don't feel like a thing. I feel like a person who has been badly hurt.
I do feel terribly lonely. I have all these kids to take care of, a nutty ex-husband who I learned was living a double life for many years, and I've given so much time and energy to BF that I've let my friendships go, not developing them the way I should have.
I'm really upset with myself, too, for not running at the first sign that this was not going to have a good ending.
It's taking a lot of effort not to pick up the phone and call him--to make one last attempt at reason. I know, though, that it will be futile. I've said it all before. It would be demeaning to try again to explain.
Gail
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Gail,
From what you have said, I would say that you are dealing with a classic n personality who would hurt you and your children if you stayed in a relationship with him. I'm not sure how much you can trust him, but I would venture a guess that he doesn't just have his ad posted on personal sites, but is most likely contacting women and meeting them behind your back. These are men who will lie about anything and are incapable of having an intimate relationship. They will seek out vulnerable women who, like yourself, are coming off a bad divorce, single parenting 5 children who would be desperate to have someone give them attention. I met my second ex right after ending the relationship with the first (I did not have children at that time), never took any time to examine my life and figure out where I was going. I jumped into a relationship with him and married him after 2 years of dating. I will never regret the marriage as I have my two wonderful children, but 22 years later I found out the man I thought I was married to was very different from the man he was.
It will be very painful for a time. You will feel lonely, sad, afraid and blame yourself. You will want to reconcile because you will think about all the wonderful times you shared and minimize all the negative things he has done. However, if you work through the pain, concentrate on getting yourself healthy, focus on your children and heal the wounds, your life has great promise for happiness. But you must do the hard work of healing yourself. It's not easy, but the payoff is grand.
Eventually, you will be able to look back and know that you have made the right decision and you will be so much better off. I would recommend doing this with the help of a therapist or at least some kind of support group. They can help to keep you focused on moving forward rather than getting stuck at that sad and lonely place. If you really become depressed, AD's can be helpful during the worst of it.
Many blessings,
Brigid
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((((((((((Gail)))))))))))
I could have written that verbatim three years ago.
I got involved with another, much more charming N soon after my divorce from my children's father. I could quote most of what you wrote and respond with: "you are talking about my life/second husband".
Be glad you didn't marry that good looking Nidiot!
At least you don't have to give him money (like I had to.....blasted community property state!!).
So you are NOT alone in this.....and I say that not say you are not unique (everyone is) but to show you solidarity. It is perfectly understandable, after being in a marriage to an N, to fall for a charmer who makes you feel special again, even if it's all an act. This makes you rather normal, not pathetic.
The one thing I suggest you do IMMEDIATELY is stop feeling like an idiot. Just stop it. You loved someone who didn't deserve you. It is that plain and simple. HE is an idiot and you are a saint for not slashing his tires or worse. This guy is a loser. You are not.
Find a decent therapist and start talking and healing.... come here and dump, we can take it!! We've all been there, you are among friends. Breathe. The toxic air left over from this man will soon leave. You will breathe again. Bless you!!
MUM
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Thanks to you both of the mp's for your support. I'm feeling rather weepy right now as this is the time of night that BF and I usually talked.
Well done, Gail, you have been more astute than many of us manage to be, and that is really commendable. If you have doubts, then one way of seeing things as they are is to imagine your daughter (if you have one) dating a man like this, and how you would feel about him then. That might help get a view on the level of abuse which has been going on.
Looking back at events in my life I accept readily that I was not worth more. Change it notionally to my daughter, and I woudl tear the perp limb from limb. :x
Good luck with your recovery from this relationship; now you can make a new 'wish list', with all the right things on it.
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Thank you Brigid and Mum,
I didn't call, didn't e-mail. I re-read his to me, though, and shed some tears. It's hard to feel responsible for this pain. I don't think he would have left me, but his behavior almost made it certain that I would leave him. It's almost deja vu, because my ex-husband did the same thing. Then, he could blame me for the divorce, especially to the children.
It's kind of ironic. I thought about ending this relationship earlier, but didn't want to cause BF any pain. How stupid is that? I doubt he's feeling much discomfort today. He can tell everyone that I dumped him, that I did the normal woman thing and tried to control him, but he wouldn't go for it so I left him.
It's been a very rough three years. I learned, like Brigid, that my x-husband was not the man I thought he was. He was using porn, going to strip clubs, some infidelity, all the while acting like a sweet, gentle man. His passive aggressiveness drove me nuts, though, and I started to suspect something was seriously wrong before it all hit the fan. The divorce and aftermath was brutal, and of course, I will be dealing with him for many, many years since our youngest is 10.
I also learned I have thyroid disease, lost an unbelievable amount of money due to the divorce and my x's irresponsibility, and was in a car accident that left me with a neck injury. I'm still dealing with the insurance company over that. Plus, I have a 19 year old daughter who is mentally ill (she lives with my x), and I have the challenges of caring and supporting the 5 younger kids. I do get some child support, but it doesn't cover even half our needs. X is filing for bankruptcy and not paying his share of the kids medical bills. I know he's in contempt, but at this point, it would cost more to go after him than what I would probably recover and the kids would really have a hard time dealing with the conflict. I've also had to make some car payments to save my credit as the bank refuses to take me off the loan for a car he owns.
Sometimes it just seems like too much. I'm exhausted.
I know, though, that I have a lot to be thankful for. I'm not going bankrupt. I got out of the marriage as quickly as I could when I realized xh was going nuts financially and emotionally tied to another woman, and am OK that way as a result. While I don't have a well developed career, I do have a good education so have options. For now, I can work at home and can almost meet our financial needs. My health is not great due to the thyroid disease, but I eat well and exercise, so am in decent shape. Hopefully, this neck injury will eventually have less impact on me.
I've got to stay positive, but I also think I need some time to collapse. I met BF when I was still reeling from the divorce, so I've never had time to just take stock and rest as much as possible. So much of my energy went to that relationship.
It's hard not to ask myself, "How could I be so stupid?" "Why didn't I pay attention to all the red flags?"
I realize that, at the core of all of this, is a very low self-esteem. It's kind of silly, really, because I know I have a lot of good skills and have some accomplishments I can be proud of. But, this is deeper. It's how I feel about myself at the core of my being. It's a willingness to be mistreated.
I'm going to start to filter everything through a question one of you asked, "What if this was your daughter?" I need to care for myself as much as I care for my children.
BF never wanted to have anything to do with my children. Because we lived so far away from each other, it was easy to accomodate that. We always spent time together when the children were with my x. He didn't even meet most of them until a few months ago. But, I didn't really want the kids to be around him that much anyway. I thought they would see that he was not someone that I should be involved with.
Right now I'm experiencing waves of grief. It's not just the stiuation with BF, it's what has happened to my family, and all that faces me in the future.
Gail
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October,
I neglected to thank you for your post, too. It was you that said I should think about what if this was my daughter. That really helped and is going to make a big difference to me as I work through this.
Gail
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Hi Gail,
Sorry you're grieving so much. I hope you won't go near a man, no matter how sweet he acts, til you're stable and not so vulnerable.
BF never wanted to have anything to do with my children.
You hadn't yet mentioned that your xbf wasn't interested in your kids when I said yesterday that the next time you meet somebody make sure he likes your kids even if he's a dope. Not that I'm clairvoyant, its just pretty typical of Ns, so I took a guess.
So, speaking as a man, let me tell any women out there listening that if you have kids and a guy you meet doesn't like them or avoids them, you can be pretty sure that guy should not be touched with a barge pole, no matter how much syrupy plagarized poetry he writes you or how dreamy his smoke grey eyes are. :roll:
There may be a few men who don't like kids and aren't selfish but I'm not sure I've ever met one.
Has anybody here met a man who didn't like kids and wasn't a complete and profound jackass?
mud
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Thanks, mud puppy. He is so child adverse that if we were in a restaurant, and some children were nearby and making noise, we would have to move. There's got to be a story there somewhere. He says his mother mistreated him horribly. He grew up determined that no one, ever again, would ever tell him what to do or put any restrictions on him.
I know I shouldn't get near a man for a long time. I really goofed on this one, but I'm grateful for what I learned from it. At least I didn't marry the guy! Then, I would have been in a real mess again. Of course, he told me upfront that he would never marry and he's in his 50's and never has. We really were an odd pair. Mother of many and confirmed bachelor who doesn't like kids.
This afternoon I was thinking about dealing with this grief and I was reminded of how I felt after my marriage ended. I was so devastated, but I realized that staying in the marriage was also devastating and at least these terrible feelings would eventually end. Staying in the marriage would just bring unending grief.
This is kind of like that. Yes, it's very hard and I miss him terribly. But, staying in the relationship was certainly not pain free.
This I'll get over.
Gail
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Mud pup: you are one wise guy! and I mean that seriously!!! My second husband was the same type....works with children, but if I had looked carefully, and followed my gut, he basically hates them...and women....and himself. Oy!
Gail, let go of trying to figure it all out. It hurts. The first part of healing is feeling, so go ahead and say it. This sucks. Have a good cry (many) and only then will you be able to move on and be positive. No amount of stuffing it will work, and you know now that includes getting involved with someone who likes the way you look (on HIS arm, am I right? ).
You'll be ok. Keep on with gratitude for what is right. Things will come around.
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I'm going to start to filter everything through a question one of you asked, "What if this was your daughter?" I need to care for myself as much as I care for my children.
Right now I'm experiencing waves of grief. It's not just the stiuation with BF, it's what has happened to my family, and all that faces me in the future.
Gail
You are not on your own, Gail. (((((hugs)))))
I was on a plane recently with my d, and she was a bit miffed when the safety announcement said that in an emergency parents have to put the oxygen mask over their own faces first, and then look after their children. that is exactly the same situation as you are facing now. You have to take care of yourself first, so that you have the emotional energy and the health to look after your children, and five is a lot to care for.
So, bubble baths and candles. Cups of tea. Walks in the park. Whatever it takes, even if only for a few minutes every day. You need to be nice to yourself, and give yourself time to grieve not only for what you have actually lost, but also for the dream of what you thought you had.
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Hi Gail,
Hey, make friends with your pain. It's trying to tell you something. I'm glad to hear you use the word "learn" because you're paying attention and taking notes. That's good. Look at this experience like childbirth. Some new and great Gail is going to come along after the pain. She will change your life and you're going to have to take care of the New Gail. And you're going to love it.
It's OK to stay positive if that means you are looking ahead. But don't shove your pain away too quickly or deny your feelings. It's a huge opportunity to learn how to stand up for yourself and what you want.
Just another note: don't take what BF says literally or too much to heart. It's all defensive BS. Esp. when he says the word "critical". He's been hearing people tell him that for a very long time, so he's trying to pass the baton on to you and who knows who else. I thought of an old Dave Mason song this morning,in your honor. (Remember him? Anyone? Anyone? ) "There ain't no good guy, there ain't no bad guy. There's only you and me and we just disagree." So you can put that bad guy stuff down and forget about it.
I'm impressed that you are aware of why you are feeling so pain at particular points during the day or night. It's like trying to stop smoking or another bad habit. Substitute something during those times that's healthier and even better for you, like a walk (if practical) or reconnecting with a friend, making some art or whatever you want. Take control.
You go, girl. You can do it. :D MP
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I'm starting to feel really low. One of the things we liked to do was talk on the phone at night because of the distance. We both had very similar interests in science, history, politics, etc. so could talk for hours. I really miss that. I find myself thinking, "What have I done by ending this?" Overwhelmed with self doubt.
But, the reality is he only called me two times in the last month even though he knows how much that bothers me. The reason--I told him again how much it hurt me to have him advertise on personal sites. When I asked him about why he didn't call, he said he thought he should just sit back and see what happened. He called it going passive and avoiding causing suffering. To me it felt like he was showing me that I really couldn't expect him to take my feelings into account.
Sheez! Did you all go through this? Trying to think through everything and make some sense of it?
In his last e-mail, he said things between us were fabulous. But, it didn't feel fabulous to me.
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Hi again Gail,
He called it going passive and avoiding causing suffering.
This is one of the things that really burns me up about Ns.
They smugly tell us black is white to justify their repulsive behavior.
He went aggressive by going passive and he was intentionally causing you suffering not avoiding it. To top it off he tries to sound all grown up about it, to make you feel guilty.
This guy is just a three toed sloth who has come down out of the trees to make you miserable.
Whenever you miss him just think about those personel ads. And if that's not enough, maybe refresh yourself on NPD characteristics, cause this guy is sprouting them like a month old potato.
mudpup
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Thanks, Mudpup, I needed that!
I so appreciate this forum. It has really helped to put things in writing and to get someone else's perspective. I can re-read what I've and others have written and get a better handle on what has happened. One thing I have realized is that I have had so much pain in my life, both physical and mental, that it doesn't feel that unusual when I'm mistreated. It's what is "normal" for me. Well, after almost 50 years of it, I'm ready for some relief!
I had a really nice thing happen to me tonight. I was feeling lower than low when a good friend, who used to be my next door neighbor called. I hadn't seen him in quite awhile, but he called at just the right time. We went out for coffee and had a good long talk. Just a nice pleasant evening with someone who is genuinely a good person, definitely not an N. Since my kids are with my ex this weekend, I would have just been home alone wallowing if he hadn't called so it was something to be thankful for. It reinforced my resolve to re-connect with friends I've neglected these last few years.
Gail
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Hi Gail,
That's so great! I think it's a nice sign of encouragement from the universe that you are doing the right thing. Ugh, that lack of email thing. Stop being your XBF's fly under the glass. He sounds creepy to me.
Warning: don't date until you know what you are bringing into the relationship. You are very vulnerable and need to just plain take care of yourself. This is a matter of being fair to the other person as well. We can't expect the other person to shore up all our needs. Sorry, again I think it's great some friendship and support arrived just when you needed it!!! Just be careful, OK?
As for the intellectual pursuits, the Internet is a wonderful thing. There have to be chatboards for the topics you like that you might enjoy. Shop around. And you may find ways to pursue your interests locally as well.
I have a similar problem in choosing friends that are very smart, great conversationalists, are initially very friendly and social. But emotionally they are very immature or uncomfortable when I express my feelings or what have you. I end up feeling like I'm a weirdo or I've pushed them away or something. However, I am now figuring out that 1. I choose people who are a lot like my father, 2. many people may have attributes I'm attracted to but that doesn't mean they have the whole package (emotional IQ), 3. I am (may I say) more emotionally astute than these folks, 4. I tend to expect too much emotional intelligence from people I like for different reasons. In other words, intelligent fun people aren't necessarily trustworthy or loving or deserving of my friendship. I am just now learning how to figure out how to accept this and navigate the world accordingly. So I understand your confusion. I really urge you to sort these things out a bit more before jumping into another relationship. You don't have to be lonely when you are alone.
Take care, you're doing great. Hugs, MP
Oh, PS: some of my litmus tests for Nness are: like kids? like dogs? kind to the waiter/waitress? I've told my Ds to watch how the guys treat their mother and the servers, because that's how they'll be treating you eventually! ciao.
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Well, XBF is pathologically adverse to kids, likes dogs a whole lot more than people, and can treat waiters, checkers, service people pretty rudely. He can be extremely charming, too, though, and I've seen him draw people into conversations who normally are very quiet and reserved. That is something I've always admired in him. He can show a great interest in people and often is very genuinely interested in what they have to say.
One reason my relationship with him has meant so much to me is my xh hardly ever talked to me. I lived for 24 years with a man that I can't ever remember having a really meaningful conversation with. So, my relationship with bf was like water on a parched soil. When I think about losing that, I get the waves of grief I'm dealing with.
He holds a big grudge against his mother because of the way she treated him as a child, although he does make the effort to visit his parents twice a year which requires a very long drive. I've never heard him say a kind word about her. She may have been as terrible as he says, and probably was a narcissist, so he built some defenses to get through it. He has a very low opinion of women. Says he made the decision to never be "controlled" by one because of his childhood. Unfortunately, that means any compromise is seen as concession or a "Yes, dear" situation.
I used to wonder why a woman left him that he lived with for 4 years about a decade ago. They stayed friends, and when I met her, she obviously still had a great deal of affection for him. She's too ill to communicate now, but I could tell in her eyes how much she felt for him and she put her hands over her heart to show that. That was early in our relationship, and I was so impressed with that and really puzzled as to why she ended the romantic part of their relationship. Now, I know, though. She just couldn't live, after awhile, with the same type of behavior that I couldn't either. It's too demoralizing. You think it will eventually get better, but then it doesn't.
It's so sad and seems like such a waste. I still have that hope.... You know, that fantasy, that something will trigger some profound insirght for him and I'll get that phone call saying he "gets it". I do know, though, it's only a fantasy. I can't build my life anymore on "What might be if only....
What's ironic if that he has this image of himself as being a very "enlightened" being and someone who can help others see things the right way. Also, one of his goals is to be "unattached" to any outcome. Maybe that's why he could speak so casually about "moving on to whatever something was next" when I told him I had to resign as his girlfriend if he wouldn't leave the personal sites. (His language. He told me that I could resign from that position at any time--also told me I was a "slot filler", that I came along at a time in his life when he needed someone to fill that girlfriend slot.) If his stated goal is to stay "unattached", that surely says a lot about an inability to form attachments!
Gail
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Gail, I relate very much to the BF appearing to have some admirable traits that the nasty ex husband did not. It's like we are looking for someone to fill in a street full of humongous potholes in our relationship history and when they fill in one or two, we are thrilled and assume there will be more to come....
and we know the rest...
My second husband was handsome and charming and well known, some things my ex was not....AND he told me on a regular basis how beautiful I was. He really made a point of this. (oh, yeah and how beautiful other women were, too).
After years of never being complimented by my husband, it was awesome for me! But I was a walking wound, and those things were balm to my damage. Unfortunately, they were just about appearances. My second husband was charming because it was an act, and well known FOR his "act". And he liked my looks because of how being with me made HIM look. And that's the depth of it.
I think you are doing well, really well, to talk this out, and realize you need something different for your life. At first I felt dumb that my kids would have a twice divorced mom, but I know it's much better for them to be with a mom who respected herself and them enough to get out of a damaging situation.
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Thanks, Mum. This really made sense to me. Just because BF filled the "needing conversation" pothole and provided much adventure doesn't negate the negatives.
It's been just 3 days since I sent the "Dear John" e-mail, and I'm exhausted. And all I've really done is hole up in my house except when I went to coffee with my friend. (Thankfully, the kids are gone this weekend.) I can't seem to focus on anything except to watch some TV and read posts on the site. Is this a normal reaction?
I'll be "fine" for awhile--really thinking about it rationally and glad to be in the position to move forward, then a wave of grief will hit me. I'll think about something I want to share with BF and then I realize I'm not going to. And the phone is right there. And I want to talk to him. I want to try one more time to get him to "see" what we could have together.
But then I feel like a "piece of trash" that he threw away. It's so nuts! How could a man who says he's perfectly happy with a woman and will never leave her, and who genuinely enjoys her company, give her up for "cyber flirting?" Is it a control thing? That he really won't do anything just because someone wants him to? Or is it that hearing from women, who find his profile attractive, feeds narcisisstic needs? At one point, until I really protested, he was posting pictures that I took during our times together. Even why that was hurtful was hard for him to understand.
Maybe he really does understand, but it's just some kind of cruelty at work here?
Since I can see this very clearly with my head, why won't my heart accept it, too? I keep having flashbacks to the good times, to the times I felt that we really had something special.
This stinks!
Gail
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Gail,
You are certainly not alone in how you are feeling and processing your emotions right now. I implore you not to act on those feelings of loss, however, as the reality is quite different. You are a mom of 5 children. Would you really want to spend the rest of your life with a man who did not love and want to be around your children and eventually grandchildren? I personally cannot think of anything worse. My children are my life and even though they are more or less on their own now, I still so enjoy having them around, travelling with them, experiencing new things with them. I would want my significant other to enjoy those things too and not be looking for ways to avoid them. Imagine how they would eventually pull further and further away from you as a result. I personally will not date someone unless they have children and have a very good relationship with them. This is to me the best test of what kind of man he is and how he has lived up to his responsibilities for his family despite the breakdown of his marriage.
If your n xbf is into the personal sites, he is probably also into pornography and other less desirable, but very n characteristics. Especially with the distance between you, he could carry on whatever kind of lifestyle he chose and you would be none the wiser. My xh did it right under my nose and I didn't figure it out because I trusted him implicitly.
You have gotten lots of good advice here. I hope you can take it to heart and do what is best for you and your children. Hang in there darlin', we're pulling for you.
Hugs,
Brigid
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Hi Gail,
I've never been romantically involved with an N so I'll leave it to others to tell you how to get past the grief and longing, but I do know the answer to this question:
How could a man who says he's perfectly happy with a woman and will never leave her, and who genuinely enjoys her company, give her up for "cyber flirting?"
Because when he says he's perfectly happy, he's lying. He's fooling you to keep you available. These people are never happy, perfectly or imperfectly. And anybody who gets sucked into their gravitational field will be just as miserable as they are.
I want to try one more time to get him to "see" what we could have together.
Your description of this guy is of a classic N, therefore there is nothing you could have with this guy other than a horrible, awful life that will sooner or later end in him betraying you completely. Every positive aspect of this guy is an illusion to suck in people to use. There is no there, there.
mud
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Hi all! Just a quick update on my ongoing saga with my ex N and sex addict predator. Mentioned on other thread he is now preying on vulnerable young women in NA meetings. I left his shrink- likely inappropriate of me but I'm comfortable with it- a mssg. last week simply telling him his patient is using the program as a hunting ground and several women are now complaining about predatory and inappropriate sexual behaviour. One woman he's stalking is now afraid of him. Of course shrink called back and said had absolutely no intention of pursuing this and I said I simply wanted him to be aware of his behaviour and what he does with this is not by business. Ran into N Sat. at a meeting we both attend and he chose to announce he would no longer be attending this group. " somebody is spreading rumours about me alleging 4 women have complained about my behaviour...anyone who knows me would know this is absolute bullshit...I;ve talked with my sponsor( a complete bozo who's been conned by N and was present) and he's put me in touch with his lawyer who assures me I have a sold case against this individual and i'm proceeding with a lawsuit". Typical and all I can say is good luck with that! The only caveats and supports I've been giving is to some of the women who have approached me basically vaildating their intuitions and directing them to either their sponsors or to people they could speak to if they chose. Only other person was his shrink. Oh, he left me a message saying " in case you're worried, I'm not angry you called my shrink- ANGER NO LONGER EXISTS IN MY VOCABULARY"!!!!! I'm having a friend of his- only person in the world who still supports him- very religious guy who is in total denial and rescue mode- deliver a mssg. that N can pick up the rest of his shite at my place this Sun. at a very specific time. i plan on moving it all into the hallway and then leaving before he picks it up. i'm having friend tell him if he's not there then everything will be moved outside in the alley. also he's been harassing people in program accusing various men of coming on to me and his former recovery house roommate told me he moved out of their room due to his bizarre behaviour. Also interrogating female friends as to who I'm hanging out with. Also told me that above friend( religious guy) allegedly informed N " the only reason he's in touch with me is that he wants to fuck me"!!!! Needless to say friend was both flabergasted and disgusted. Remains totally confused as to why N would say this!!! Instead of feeling my usual homicidal ideation, I now feel pity for him. He's screwed and is completely incapable of change on any level. He's incensed i'm moving on and so much good stuff has happened and continues to in my life over the past 4 months!!! I am fully aware however that even this continuing contact- even from a distance- is keeping that old dysfunctional dance between up going. I'm not beating myself up anymore over my disastrous choice with him because I'm working hard on the real issues behind that choice. I feel it in my bones that for the first time in my life I know I can break this pattern and am well on the way to believing and accepting I deserve happiness and good things. Thanks for listening1 Moira