Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Chicken on September 29, 2005, 05:04:19 PM
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Hello Everyone,
Well my ex-abusive-boyfriend is well and truly out of the picture, thanks to you all for your kind words and support during that episode.
I am left with emptiness and a deep loneliness however. I think loneliness is the hardest emotion to deal with...
Is there anything wrong with loneliness? Should I be trying to figure it out or should I try to ignore it? Is loneliness just part of Life?
I feel a little depressed and hyper-sensitive too. I am still going to counselling once a week and maybe that is making me feel down in the dumps... it leaves me feeling a little exposed.
I have so many issues I don't know where to start. I have no sense of self. I tell everyone everything about myself which seems to give them so much power over me. I never trust my judgement on things. I never seem to be of one mind on things, never know how I feel about things. I am needy. I constantly compare myself to others, the list is endless and the more I learn about myself, the more I dislike. I'm not sure I want to dig deeper, as I am just finding muck!!! I preferred when I wrapped myself in cotton wool and lived in ignorance and denial. I feel horrible. Can anyone relate to the pain of being exposed after all your walls come crumbling down and you decide to throw away your crutches? I'm sure this situation will lead to me finding myself and learning to fly but at the moment it feels really horrible.
Counselling just seems to concentrate on the bad things about yourself doesn't it? It's so hard to pick yourself up when you are being criticised by yourself and your counsellor... well, it's not criticism I guess, but sometimes it feels like I am picking myself to pieces...
and lastly... Is it possible I am feeling like this because I missed my counselling session today? I got my days mixed up and I missed my appointment... just an afterthought...
x Selkie x
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Hi Selkie,
Yes, loneliness is very painful. I ended my relationship with BF today and am feeling extremely sad and upset and lonely.
Abusive behavior, no matter what its form, is painful, too, though. I'd rather have the pain of loneliness. I know I can take steps to find healthy relationships (not necessarily romantic) so that will ease with time. Life with someone who abuses you never gets better. It just gets worse.
Gail
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(((((((((((((Selkie))))))))))))) Big hugs for you!
Glad to hear that abusive, now exb is out of your life! :)
I can relate to almost everything you shared. It was that way in the beginning and most of the way through therapy for me. Very tough. Each week brought more and more muck and at one time I thought of quitting. I didn't. I used to vomit when I got close to something I didn't want to see. I fought a constant need to run away from therapy and my life. Denial seemed to be a safer state of mind than finding the truth.
The emptiness - I always tried to fill it with something. Now I have myself and getting to know me and the feeling of emptiness is beginning to fade.
Have you read When Hope Can Kill? It is excellent. There's a question/answer section in the book. Essentially it is a workbook to write about your feelings. It emphasizes looking into your childhood to discover the real you.
The therapeutic process got better when I began to heal the wounds of my shattered childhood. I am now coming through the other side - finding me and liking the me I have found. I trust my judgments, decisions, and intuition more and more every day.
Anything is possible - missing a counseling appointment (with my current t) used to throw me into a tailspin. I would get depressed. It was sometimes the only interaction I had with the outside world.
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oh my god Selkie I can totally relate to most everything you wrote.
"I have no sense of self"
I felt like that forever and ever and ever it seems. That is so hard. You will get a sense of yourself as time goes by. I felt like that all my life pretty much and now I have a little sense of myself!!!
I think the kind of loneliness that comes after an abusive relationship and after an abusive life is a lot different than regular old loneliness because it is accumulated loneliness of the years, and of being so lonely while with people that were so abusive or so unhealthy that they were not really there for you.
I can really relate about learning all these things you don't like about yourself too!!! Just remember that you needed a lot of those things before and it is really really hard to develop yourself while being around abusive ns without developing qualities that are more like survival mechanisms. You will find many wonderful things about yourself too.
((((Selkie)))))))
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I am left with emptiness and a deep loneliness however. I think loneliness is the hardest emotion to deal with...
Is there anything wrong with loneliness? Should I be trying to figure it out or should I try to ignore it? Is loneliness just part of Life?
Hi Selkie, it sounds like you are having a bad day/week/month/etc. :( I've been through this recently, as well. Loneliness is wanting to be with other (safe) people, but NOT being with others for whatever reason. The first part is a normal, healthy part of being human. We are herd animals, after all. :) It is the last part that triggers the horrible feelings.
For me, I was afraid that I would die without others, but at the same time, I had had so many bad experiences that I was very hesitant to get close to anyone. Figuring out what was really going on with me was the hard part. Then, I attacked both pieces. I mentally went back to childhood and felt the unpleasant feelings of fear of abandonment and neglect and welcomed it inside me. I reminded myself that I was an adult now and that I don't need anyone else to take care of me like a parent takes care of a child. I can take care of myself in every way now. For the second part, I have spent a lot of time analyzing (obsessing :oops:) the behavior of people in my life who have hurt me deeply. I know I understand them better when I see them as flawed, hurting human beings who are lashing out in pain, rather than scary, powerful people who are bigger than me. Your mileage may vary on the causes in your life, but there is probably something there that causes you to be afraid to be alone. It was probably true at one point in the past, but probably *isn't* true anymore.
I have so many issues I don't know where to start. I have no sense of self. I tell everyone everything about myself which seems to give them so much power over me. I never trust my judgement on things. I never seem to be of one mind on things, never know how I feel about things. I am needy. I constantly compare myself to others, the list is endless and the more I learn about myself, the more I dislike. I'm not sure I want to dig deeper, as I am just finding muck!!! I preferred when I wrapped myself in cotton wool and lived in ignorance and denial. I feel horrible. Can anyone relate to the pain of being exposed after all your walls come crumbling down and you decide to throw away your crutches? I'm sure this situation will lead to me finding myself and learning to fly but at the moment it feels really horrible.
It does feel bad to be aware of unpleasant feelings. That is why so many people use supression or denial as a defense. What feels horrible to you now probably felt totally overwhelming to you when you were younger. Feeling those unpleasant feelings, giving them space, and feeling them as long as you need to deeply accept them, will remove the pressure and urgency from them. IT is the only way I have found. Otherwise, they just keep coming back to me over and over again.
However, NONE of the things you listed above are you. You are describing (very common!) coping behaviors that you probably learned to try to survive your childhood. You can change all of these behaviors, because they are not you. They didn't even come from you. They came in response to people and situations beyond your understanding or control. *You* are a wonderful person. I think that right now it is easier for us to see and know about you, than it is for you to do it. Give it some time. Take opportunities to pamper yourself. Make sure you are getting enough rest, excercise and good nutrition.
and lastly... Is it possible I am feeling like this because I missed my counselling session today? I got my days mixed up and I missed my appointment... just an afterthought...
This might be both the cause and effect. Is it possible you "forgot" to go because you are afraid and want to avoid the feelings that come up? Have you told your counsellor that you feel like counselling is bringing up a lot of unpleasant and difficult feelings and you don't feel that you have enough support? Plus, since you didn't go, you didn't even get the usual amount of support you would for this week. That is bound to make you feel even worse.
(((((((((((((Selkie))))))))))))
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Hello,
I can relate to what you are saying as I struggle with loneliness as well. What has truly been a help to me is finding activities that I enjoy inside and outside of the home. Hanging out with some good friends or just finding a hobby has helped to keep me occupied. The relationships I have had were not abusive, but rather these women were out to change me or only looking at "What is in this for me" and not looking at the person for who they are. I don't know what type of activities you enjoy, but perhaps finding a hobby may help you as well. Hope this helps. Have a great day.
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Hello,
In my reply I meant to mention that it is hard to just ignore the the loneliness because it is so prevalent. I have found that just going out with friends or just finding a hobby has helped me to work through those times of loneliness. Hope it may you also.
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Thanks very much for your replies, It's nice to know that there are other lonely ole souls out there!!
longtire, I genuinely missed my counselling appointment as I was out of town for a few days and when I got back, it totally threw me off my routine and I got my days all mixed up. I went there to pay her anyway, it was an expensive mistake! I cried all the way home as I was just so gutted, felt like I really needed that session today and believe me, I don't have that kind of money to burn ...self pity city!!!
Anyway, I am willing to do the work on myself and my past and whatever it is that seems to be haunting me. I think I have run away from my feelings for too long as I have been carrying around a weight and sadness for what seems to be a long long time.
Sometimes I wonder if it's part of my genetic make up and if I am just a naturally sad and deep and lonely person by nature. I wonder if I am wasting my time trying to get to the bottom of it. Is there always an answer? Maybe I shouldn't dwell in my depths, maybe I should move in to shallower waters and seek shelter... Do we ever really understand ourselves? Isn't there always something niggling away at us? Isn't it human nature to be always striving for the unattainable?
I am a creative/artistic person and I think creative people are kind of like this... kind of semi-tortured! :?
I wonder am I causing myself more damage by opening this can of worms that is myself!
...just thinking out loud, if anyone wants to rant or has anything to add to this, feel free!!
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Hi Selkie
wow, I can so relate to you. I am going through the pain of a lifetime, which has been denied, since I left my husband. Sometimes I feel that I cannot take any more, and then I come up to breathe fresh air and realise that I am seeing more and more of reality and am at last making sense of my life, and the abusers in it, ie parents, two husbands, a daughter and xm-i-l.
I wonder why your t is not building up your self esteem by telling you the good qualities she sees in you. Ask yourself what they are. Are you a caring person? Do you appreciate love? Do you want honesty and integrity in your life?
I believe that the pain I am going through is vital, to enable me to be free eventually, and for me to build a life where I am fulfilled and have healthy relationships for the first time. But it is unbearable at times and I have felt like giving up frequently. Sometimes it feels like I have made no progress and I am still an emotional mess, but this negative thinking can be overcome by realising that here will be negative days, but they will pass and I should not take much notice of my thoughts on those days. On the good days, things look better and better as my new friendships are building up, but it all takes time and I think that the right sort of support is vital, and if you do not have it you must find it. And trust that the 'universe' or God, or whatever you believe in, will bring it to you when you are seeking it and agreeing to the process of healing. Be brave and courageous, your mind wants to heal and will do so all you have to do is to go along with the process. You are not alone, there are others going through it and can help you along the way. I found myself left totally alone in life, and too sick to go out most of the time, but the most important person in life, and the one who will always be there for you, is yourself and you can have a good relationship with yourself once you break free of shame.
Take care
Mati
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Selkie,
Like many before have said, lonliness goes with the territory of working through the pain of ending a relationship and healing the injuries. But I found that if I could use that lonely time to reflect on my life, the choices I had made and where I wanted to go, it became a vital part of my healing experience. You are still relatively early on in the process. I promise that it does get better.
I can totally identify with the loss of self. I even started a thread many months ago titled "In search of my self." It took me a whole year in therapy before I could venture back to my childhood and all the pain that was hiding there. It is very hard to go there and realize what you had missed as a child and that you were not truly loved and cared for properly. However, for me it was the beginning of the complete healing that needed to happen for my life to feel whole once again--or maybe for the first time. I was finally able to start looking at life from the standpoint of the possibilities of joy it held rather than the fear, sadness and lonliness I had been experiencing. I certainly still have further to go on my journey, but I travel now without looking back with melancholy, but look forward with anticipation. I pray you get to that point as well. Try not to be afraid. It will be messy for awhile, but there is light at the end of the proverbial tunnel and you are certainly not travelling alone.
Blessings,
Brigid
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Abusive behavior, no matter what its form, is painful, too, though. I'd rather have the pain of loneliness. I know I can take steps to find healthy relationships (not necessarily romantic) so that will ease with time. Life with someone who abuses you never gets better. It just gets worse.
Amen, amen, amen, amen, amen.
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Hi All,
It's been a while since i posted, I hope you are all doing well.
The reason I popped in here tonight is that I am in that familiar place again, A melancholy and lonely place! Looking back over the years, I have always felt this way... thirty plus years of my life... I suppose it's time to accept it rather than fight it, or try to change it...I mean, it has never been any other way. Yeah, I have moments where it's alright, but that's just because I keep busy. I feel like I am missing some kind of chip that enables you to connect with another human being.
Does anyone have any insights on why this happens to people? What is the lesson in loneliness? When I was in the abusive relationship last year, it was just as painful, but there was a lesson in it, so therefore it was useful. I found out why I was attracted to such abusive personalities etc... but what's the lesson here? Why am I in this lonely place... I put myself here didn't I? Why? I don't like it...
Any ideas?
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Hey Sweetie,
My very first post on this forum was asking for help with loneliness...you are not alone in your loneliness!
This is from your older post:
a naturally sad and deep and lonely person by nature
...plus, you mentioned the curse of the creative types.
I want to say NO you are not naturally sad and lonely. YES you are naturally deep and sensitive.
I would also say that this same struggle, has driven me deeper into both therapy and my church community. I have needed EVERY POSSIBLE weapon to prevent my pain (which translated into feeling lonely, even in a crowd of kindness) from overwhelming me.
As a young poet, I was terrified by the conclusion I was creeping toward: do I have to be as tormented and sad as I'm feeling now to be good at this? I deliberately sought out stories of poets who were NOT crazy, alcoholic, or suicidal...I had been so frightened by the stereotype.
Please...don't let a stereotype about artists fool you. You are a distinct individual with your own path to walk and OWN WHOLENESS to discover.
Please don't give up on yourself. I agree with Jac that drama is a key word...maybe we "creative types" confuse happiness with drama. If it's not INTENSE OPERATIC happiness, we think we haven't found it. We undervalue things like simple serenity and overlook our own wellbeing by being attracted to intensity (disturbance) in others. But I think we can unlearn these things....
((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((Selkie))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Hopalong
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Hi Selkie,
I feel for you in this time. Loneliness is horrible, I think it's one of the worst things ever. I have been lonley before and I wondered what is the point in life. I don't really know what to say but that I want to be there for you and I want you to know that you are valuable and you deserve happiness...
I guess we all deal with things differently. Things that I found helped me get through times of loneliness and despair are:
-listening to motivational cds while sleeping
-painting, to express how I feel, an outlet.
-retail therapy
-allowing myself to cry and feel everything, what doesn't kill us makes us stronger
-having a friend to listen
-finding a peaceful place to go to (beach, quiet hill over looking a beautiful view)
-journalling
-gym work out
-make over (hair color change or a haircut)
All the best Selkie
Jessica :)
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Hi Selkie
yes, loneliness is one of the most difficult emotions to resolve practically and psychologically.
Sometimes 'friends just can't be found' and I think we all grew up with the myth that one day we'd all have a special partner to share our lives- it's a hard fantasy to let go of.
It takes time to learn self-sufficiency and happiness in being alone. Some days I think i am there, other days I just wish i had someone to run to, just to fall into them for a while and be loved.
But if I go out looking for a someone I know I'll be back to the same old situation...
I am working my way through a daybook, the author recommends finding a beautiful blank book & keeping a 'thankfulness' diary, writing down 5 things each day you are thankful for.
It's helping me see that there are things to smile at every day, my growing son, the puppy, the beauty around me, also helping me track the things people are doing for me, a gift or a letter, a favour, a shared moment...
I spend most of my time now alone, the dog has been the best companion and remedy to physical loneliness, always ready for a walk or to lie at my feet, moving wherever I go.
As for the psychological loneliness, that aching emptiness inside, I am hoping that as I heal myself it will fade. It is fading, I am more at peace with solitude, and have found ways to reach out to good people without being vulnerable to life's wolves...
(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((())))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) here's a big hug.
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((((((((Selkie)))))))))
Thinking of you hon… Somehow society seems to teach us that loneliness isn’t a good thing. However I beg to differ… there are times when it is very empowering as it can give you a chance to focus on yourself. Sometimes being around people can make you feel more lonely (well me anyway!), but on the whole I prefer to be around people. I don’t really enjoy being in the house on my own now, which is strange because at one time I loved it. So I can hop on a train and go somewhere for the day, go shopping, or go to an art gallery or a library.
I feel sometimes it seems that it’s a no win situation… we can feel lonely at home and we can feel lonely with friends. Does it mean something? I honestly don’t know, but I am aware that our feelings are very real and valid and we do have the power to change this… even if it’s just going out for a walk (or hopping on the tube to go to a different part). I feel that big cities/towns are lonely places anyway because everyone is always so preoccupied with something else.
Take care of yourself Selkie
H&H xx
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Selkie, meditation really helped me i feeling centred and finding the strength to be alone. Marta
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Thank you so much for replying, after a good nights sleep, it's so nice to log on and see all your replies!
As always, this place is a comfort and a support. Thank you all for keeping it that way.
Those replies have been very helpful...just knowing there are others out there that feel the same. When you feel like this, you feel like you are the only one in the world who is in this place. I really like the idea of meditation and keeping a "thankful" journal...
It's funny, but what triggered yesterday's bout of lonliness was a conversation with my flatmate. All day I was really happy and comfy in my flat, and really looking forward to a day in pottering about in my flat... (I had the full day off)
So my flatmate starts talking about going on a date that evening and started asking about me and my lovelife situation. Well, I've never really had a conversation about that stuff with him before... anyway, I started to get really defensive about it, and if I was a fly on the wall looking at myself I would have said "WOW look at the subtext" I told him about the type of boyfriends I had been used to (ie. assholes) and he didn't respond, then he said "Just get out there" and I started feeling angry (I didn't show it) and now I am catching myself saying to myself: I hate him (my flatmate) and I am not going to talk to him again!!!!
I find myself wanting to have that conversation again so I can be relaxed and say: "well it's only been four months since my last relationship so I like to chill out by myself before meeting the next, and when the time is right, I'll go out and strut my stuff" then have a nice chuckle at myself and be all relaxed about it...
From that encounter, I put words into his mouth also... in the conversation I had with him, there was nothing to suggest that he said this, but this is what I imagined he said, check this out: "Selkie, you are a loser, who is unattractive and tainted, you are a loner and a freak who cannot find a boyfriend, and when you do, he is an asshole, you must have a lot of issues"
I feel like having my friends around now, just to show him that I have friends!
Why do I care so much about what people think? How can this conversation so much power over me to ruin my lovely night in!
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Why do I care so much about what people think? How can this conversation so much power over me to ruin my lovely night in!
Selkie, I'm so sorry your good time was ruined!
But this is not about what people think....you said he didn't actually say all the things that started running through your mind. They came from somewhere else. The usual place. The conversation only touched on the topic that set in motion that damning locomotive that roared through your head all night. Crushing your fun and your peace.
Somewhere, somewhen, someone installed these thoughts in your head. Taught them to you. You know when and who it was.
It's a matter of getting to the root of it and clearing out the rot.
Your flatmate might be labouring under the misconception that all people are better off in relationships. I really have a hard time thinking he believes those, or any, awful things about you. They are so obviously false, even the person who taught you those lies knows better. Perhaps you ought to give your mate the benefit of the doubt.
Pottering about in your flat is much preferable to hanging about in a pub, smelling of old lager, breathing secondhand smoke, and chatting up any old drunken lout! (Am I dating myself?)
Plucky
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Hey Selks,
As ususal we find ourselves in the same place again. I too am deep in loneliness at the moment and though I know it is where i should be I feel so strange. I know just what you mean about that disconnected feeling. I feel the same. When I am with people I am there but not there at the same time. i am unable to touch them somehow. It's like I have an invisible wall. i am shocked to find that I don't want people any more and feel safe in my own space even though I hate it...
I think though that the lesson on loneliness is to be in a different place with ourselves. To place clear boundaries around ourselves and to somehow lose that desperate need that we carry that allows other people to do what they do. I'm not really sure how to get from this place to that one though. Are you still in therapy. I have a feeling that you said somewhere that you had stopped. I am finding it really useful at the moment. I just feel safe there somehow. I'm a ware that I am rambling a bit with no real answers or purpose but I guess that's where I am right at this minute. I just wanted you to know that you are not alone.....
Lots of love
Spyralle xxxxxxx
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Hi Spy,
Why is deep loneliness where you should be?
This sounds more like depression...
((((Spyralle))))
Hops
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Hi, Selkie.
I think we are trained in many cultures to hide/run/find ways to fix any pain. Thus we tend to avoid learning from it.
I am lumping loneliness into the larger title of pain here.
I learned quite a bit about pain (including loneliness) and healing for me was to really look at it, instead of try to get away from it, fill it up, or otherwise change how I felt. It IS how I felt. It's not BAD. I stopped labeling things as BAD or GOOD. It just IS. When I take away the judgement, even of my own feelings, then I can step away, become an observer of myself, if you will, and it becomes less volatile, or toxic. It just becomes interesting. It's not that I stop FEELING the emotion, I just stop trying to get out of it, maybe just for one little moment at a time....then more and more. Have you ever heard "that which you resist, persists"?
My experience with traditional counseling is that it tends to focus on what has gone wrong and healing that place by first uncovering every little piece of grit that makes it up. I understand why this kind of therapy seems overwhemingly painful. Although I think it's important, I don't think I would be healing so well if that's all I did.
I have another counselor/mentor who has helped me with a different approach, not so much to get me to understand WHY I hurt, (which she also did, but not endlessly) but to help me to create what I do want from life, and how that really happens.
I also read a million books, but there are two books that, although I didn't (and probably still don't) understand completely, led me to a fresh perspective on things.
One is: "The Power of Now" by Ekhart Tolle.
The other is "When things Fall Apart" by Pema Chodron.
Pema in particular (I would read anything she writes because she is a wonderful writer and very funny and compassionate) helped me to see how useful pain is, and how getting away from pain, as had been my pattern, did not allow me to analyze why it was there, and how to learn from it. So what I see happened was that by getting away from my pain so quickly (although it felt like an enormously LONG period of time while I was in it).....I never learned what it was there to tell me.....so it kept coming back. And I kept trying to get away from it. And traditional counseling, although we LOOKED at the pain, seemed to never move into any options....just digging the scabs off time after time...seeing mistakes, and pathology, instead of acceptance of a divine plan or path.....and how the pain could be part of that.
It's only when I stopped running and accepted that I HURT! It's PART of me and my path in life....and that it's ok. I actually embraced the pain.........that I started to see why it was there.
Pain is inevitable. We are human. I feel it with great regularity, but I am getting better and better at figuring out WHY I feel it and how I get to USE it to claim my power of CHOICE. Because I have a choice in my MIND as to how I view pain and happiness, I get to master it, not the other way around. Tolle has an interesting way of expressing this "other self" we tend to see... this choice of every moment we have. Actually, I would recommmend reading the little abridged version of "the Power of Now" first...it's not so difficult to navigate.
Pain exists where we are attached to something (that is or that isn't) but it isn't meant to be habitual or a lifestyle......... When I really GOT INTO the MUCK of it all....and just accepted that this pain IS, then I almost without effort started to see choices. When we think we have no options, that when loneliness or pain seems overwheming. But FEEL it, stay still in it a bit, maybe stop trying to fill the void....just feel it and be patient. The sky will open, the sun will shine, you will see a choice.
And with a choice, you will find your way.
And your way may well be medication, therapy, artistic expression or any combination of things. There is not just one way. But just be sure it's not what you've always done....because we all know what doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is........
As far as the artist connection....I do agree (as an artist) that FEELING life, very deeply, is something we do. But I think we have as much choice as anyone to make a choice as to our feelings. My husband feels and expresses sadness so deeply, and he is a brilliant musician as well, but he is still the happiest person I know.... does that make sense? I am still learning from him how to embrace what I had labeled "bad" emotions (scary stuff for me), but he is fearless. He feels it fully and moves on... I still tend to want to "think happy" (denial) instantly. I am still learning.
I DO think Van Gogh would have been just as wonderful a painter without having been so tormented.....he just may have sold some paintings while he was alive.
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Hi Gang, thank you for your replies...
I didn't think I have a problem being alone, it's just that I think other people think I am a loser and that I am a wierdo or a loner or God knows what else. I feel like i need to justify staying in, whereas it should be my business.
When I say being alone, I don't mean constantly. I hang out with friends at least 2 times a week as well as doing 40+ hours of work. I socialise outside of the flat always. My flat is just for me.
I may be projecting my thoughts onto my flatmate though, which kinda makes me question: "Do I feel that way about myself?"
if so, why don't I own it? Why project it onto someone else?
Then I get all caught up in: What are my thoughts and what are someone elses? Is everything I assume someone else thinks a projection of mine? so then i just drop it cuz it makes my brain fry...
I live by other people though, I have always done that. They rule my life. Whenever I make a stand or try to be assertive, I start feeling bad about myself. I feel that others don't like me when I do that...
Spyralle, I gave up counselling that last time. I feel the need to go again, but don't want to make a commitment to a weekly thing. I need it a bit looser than that. I found someone new who I haven't yet gone to see. It's a man this time, which really scares me. I think it may bring up a lot of things but it could also potentially ruin me. I have a thing about men... I become their puppet
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Sorry just an after thought:
For those of you who know about projection or transference, do you project/transfer parts of you, you do not accept?
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[when I]...just accepted that this pain IS, then I almost without effort started to see choices. When we think we have no options, that when loneliness or pain seems overwheming. But FEEL it, stay still in it a bit, maybe stop trying to fill the void....just feel it and be patient. The sky will open, the sun will shine, you will see a choice.... And with a choice, you will find your way.
Mum, this is a wonderful summary of Chodron and also of Victor Frankl. I haven't read Tolle's book in too many years to remember but you make me want to read it again. This seems to be what's at the heart of meditation, too...something my anxiety always fights with, but I've begun the tiniest practice, in a Wednesday evening Vespers service. Sharing the stillness w/people I trust has made it better.
Selkie, with this kind of honesty I think you CAN heal. It is painful to read but under the pain is a very great strength. You are naming it, describing it, and pulling no punches about how real this feeling is:
I think other people think I am a loser .... Is everything I assume someone else thinks ... I live by other people .... I feel that others don't like me ....
About your new counselor, imo this is also a brave and wise choice:
It's a man this time, which really scares me. I think it may bring up a lot of things .... I have a thing about men ....
Your flat-mate's male, you mentioned...
(I didn't quote the rest of it because I believe it is your drive toward wholeness and emotional healing--letting the stuff be brought up--that drives this wise choice, and the fear of ruination is old stuff...)
Was curious about one thing: ... don't want to make a commitment to a weekly thing. I need it a bit looser... men... I become their puppet
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Would it be the puppet strings you want to be looser? Could you be setting it up that this male counselor will be like all the other men you have felt helpless against? If he's skilled and trustworthy, could it serve you better to really commit, weekly, to stay in weekly as long as it takes no matter what stuff comes up, so you can finally become free of these feelings that you are not worth anything?
I believe in that bright future for you. I believe it because so many people on this board have healed from so many staggering obstacles. I believe you can too.
And lastly, "weird" is another one of those words we use to beat ourselves up with. I hope you'll ask yourself to fill a page of writing with positive things about yourself and read it aloud to yourself twice a day. Even when it feels like lying, even when it feels absurd. I think you need to regroove those voices in your brain...and I know it can be done. What do you have to lose but fear and pain?
You deserve whatever effort, help, energy, and time it takes. You are the most creative thing.
Hopalong
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Hops,
I guess if we are in deep loneliness and we survive it then maybe we realise that it is not as terrifying as we thought it was xxxx
Selkie,
I have been doing a lot about projection in therapy. You can project both good and bad parts of yourself. For example.... My ex N projected his bad suff onto me little by little unitl I became so drenched in his crap that my own light went out. It was like he gave me all the heavy suitcases that he didn't want to carry and then the person that he fell for was obscured by his own s*it. Of course then he also felt like they weren't his any more so he cut me loose without a second thought thinking that he had got rid of the stuff he hated about himself. All in the sub conscious of course.
You are soooooo not a loser,... What orientation is your new therapist. Mine is a psychotherapist so she works psychodynamically. She explains projection very well.
Spyralle xxxxx
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I have been doing a lot about projection in therapy. You can project both good and bad parts of yourself. For example.... My ex N projected his bad suff onto me little by little unitl I became so drenched in his crap that my own light went out. It was like he gave me all the heavy suitcases that he didn't want to carry and then the person that he fell for was obscured by his own s*it. Of course then he also felt like they weren't his any more so he cut me loose without a second thought thinking that he had got rid of the stuff he hated about himself. All in the sub conscious of course.
Holy cow......this is just a great explanation......SO much what went on between my exN and me.
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I just want to hug mum (((((((((((((((((((mum)))))))))))))))))))))... You gave me so much support when I needed it I'm so glad that I finally got to say something that was useful to you x
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I live by other people though, I have always done that. They rule my life. Whenever I make a stand or try to be assertive, I start feeling bad about myself. I feel that others don't like me when I do that...
Hi Selkie,
I know what you mean by this. I think you have to try to let go of wanting to be liked. It is very hard to change your mind to decide that others do actually like you, even if that is the case, if you have the deep-seated idea that people don't like you. I have that myself. So all I could do, is to stop caring so much about those people and their opinions, and decide that it really doesn't matter if they like me or not. I have to like myself.
I still have social problems but mainly, I am happy with myself. I am so close to me - it's important that I like me! I'm always here! I hear everything I think! I know me better than anyone! So my opinion is more important than any relative stranger.
I still have days when I feel sort of paranoid and that others don't like me. But I try to remember that my perception on this is not accurate, and this helps keep me from getting too far down into it. I try to argue back with myself that I am probably imagining things. There are relatively few people who dislike anyone just for expressing an opinion or showing some backbone. Chances are, you are imagining things as well.
Don't know if any of this is helpful, but I'm trying to show the friendship I feel for you in my clumsy way. May you feel better!
Plucky
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Hi Plucky, thanks
I do get obsessed with being liked, you're right. Sometimes, you have to pay a price to be liked... like you have to agree with people all the time, listen to them bitch about someone who you may like, let them walk over you, generally remain voiceless... I am always liked up until the point I get sick of having no back bone, then I start to reveal that I have, and I start to think people don't like me so I act differently towards them (thinking they don't like me) and I feel that they act differently towards me, it may beself fulfilling prophecy... but I can't live with the assertive me who has a mind of her own. I just want to be myself and be liked.
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Plucky,
I still like you. No, I like you even more as time goes by. You are a gem:
I am so close to me - it's important that I like me! I'm always here! I hear everything I think! I know me better than anyone! So my opinion is more important ...
:P
Selkie,
Maybe you could reframe part of it?
I can't live with the assertive me who has a mind of her own. I just want to be myself and be liked.
The assertive thinking you IS "myself"--one of your layers. I miss the good old consciousness-raising sessions we had in the late 60s early 70s. Ever heard of assertiveness training? I don't know if it exists anymore, but it was wonderful workshops where people would role play how to speak their own minds: with assertion, without aggression. Like giving us voice but not foghorns.
Anyway, part B: Selkie I reallly like you. I sometimes intuit off-base here, but I think of you as a: VERY smart, distinct, highly talented, expressive and eccentric artist. Sometimes prickly and always honest. A little raw and a whole LOT intelligent. I would like very much to know you and I think people who get the ftf chance to are lucky. I think if I met you I'd find you laughing more than you feel like laughing sometimes, but I'd also think, oh that's transient and I know what it's like. I wonder (if I'm not off contructing some wildly inaccurate fantasy of who you are anyway, do correct me I like knowing!) -- I also wonder if I'd find you very quiet most of the time, until you are annoyed.
I think maybe you just need practice. Literal practice talking about what you feel and think in a regular way. I still think of a group therapy or support group process when I think of you. Dunno why, just do.
Meanwhile, liking away...((((Selkie)))
Hopalong
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Hiya Hops!
I don't think you would recognize me if you met me. I come across as being really strong, confident, self assured and very sorted. That's the problem I guess.
I'm not what it says on the tin.
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Selkie,
I ESPECIALLY like people who let me know so gently that I've fantasized myself right out of the room! :P
Oh well. I like you anyway. Even when my intuition's not working.
Hops
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((((((((((((Spyralle)))))))))))) hug right back at ya!!!