Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board

Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: vunil on October 01, 2005, 01:16:05 PM

Title: tried to have a conversation... perspective, please?
Post by: vunil on October 01, 2005, 01:16:05 PM: Hi, y'all--

As some know, I just had a baby and my folks are visiting. They aren't staying here at night, just during the day. I am on my own and feel like I need their help. I could hire someone if I wanted to, though, instead, and will do that soon. Anyway, it has been almost a month now and it has gone ok (better than I feared, for sure) but there have been a lot of little things that built up and got me really upset this morning. I tried to have a conversation about it. It was a disaster. Now I am needing some perspective.

Basically, what has happened is that my neediness has translated into a loss of all boundaries (to them). My entire house is up for grabs-- irrelevant parts of the house (the garage, the linen closet) have been completely redone by my parents in ways I wouldn't choose. Most of the time I need something or ask for something, I am told I am wrong to want it and given something else. Or, given that thing but then told why I was wrong forever after to want it. This includes items for my daughter. I am so tired of defending the smallest thing that I have become almost completely voiceless, until this morning when I burst into tears. My mother asked why I was upset and I tried to explain and she said that she and my father would leave immediately "if that's what you want." I knew that would be the response-- complete black and white thinking. It is a great manipulative tool, isn't it, because I know if I mention anything I want differently from how things are then they will reject me altogether and leave. I feel dependent on them and don't want them to leave, which makes me feel like a child again. Maybe I should have them leave? Argh. It is really tough. All I know is that I becoming really insecure and meek and unwilling to state my wants, in my own house, about my own child.

When I tried to have a conversation, my mother kept saying "all you want is for me to tell you you are right all the time." It was eerie. We were talking about things like what kind of diapers I want for my (own!) daughter-- just basic requests I had for the next trip to the grocery store. I can't really fathom what it means to be wrong about that. She said "I have to speak up when I know something is wrong; that's just how I am." But we are talking about what I want to eat, how I want to dress my daughter, when I want her to sleep, etc. I cannot tell you how tiring it is to face the barage of negative arguments every time I ask for something. It makes me wonder if the help is worth it. If I say "I want her to sleep on her back because that helps prevent SIDS" then my dad will say "she isn't going to get SIDS." If I say that I want to put her in a particular outfit today my mother will say "this other outfit is already ready for her to wear" and put that on her instead. They both make many declarations about things that are (1) the opposite of what I just said, and (2) ridiculous (e.g., "she isn't going to get SIDS" or "you don't have to worry about smothering because babies don't smother").

Just for background, I had a pretty awful childhood (not as awful as some, but not very great), was sexually abused by a stranger due to my parents' neglect, and tried to talk to my parents about all of that about 10 months ago. It was a disaster, they implied they didn't believe me (I am wrong my default, I guess) or didn't think I was having the proper response to it, or something, and we have never talked about the attempted discussion again. In that discussion they threatened never to talk to me again (black and white thinking again-- it is how they respond to stress). It is likely all of that is hanging over our current interactions, but if I can't defend my choice of diapers I can't imagine trying to defend my impression of my childhood so resolving all that is definitely out of the question. For what it is worth they have never expressed the slightest sympathy, empathy, regret, anything over the abuse and I think I will always resent them for that.

I feel really lost. Please help? I haven't felt this lost in many many years-- it's as if I've forgotten what I am allowed to want, to ask for. I feel as if I have no boundaries, as if everything about me is up for questioning, as if I don't really have the right to assert the most basic desires without being judged. And if I hear one more big declaration of "truth" that they utterly make up to insult me I will silently scream.

Thanks, y'all. I'm glad you are here.
Title: Re: tried to have a conversation... perspective, please?
Post by: miss piggy on October 01, 2005, 01:33:05 PM: Hello, hello, Vunil!

Congratulations again on your little one's arrival. Hopefully your little girl is giving you the big thumbs up on what a loving and caring mom you are.

Of course you are frustrated, being obstructed in every direction on the smallest things. In addition, your own body is trying to recover. I say that not to call your requests into doubt, only to say it is all the more challenging because of that.

When I read what your mother tells you about wanting to be right all the time, I was struck with how many times this theme has shown up on this board. That is, the N is projecting (I hate that psychological term because my N dad used it a lot when I was growing up). But that's what it is. Have you ever seen the movie Matilda? Based on a Roald Dahl book with Danny Devito as the evil N dad. "I'm big, you're little, I'm smart, you're stupid, I'm right, you're wrong". It's a kids movie and I recommend you see it after your parents go home and have a good laugh at their expense. Of course, it might be triggering, but still you'll see Matilda get even and have a happy ending.

I think a month is plenty of time for grandparents to do their thing. above and beyond. You and your little one will find your way to living on your own together, with whatever appropriate support you find that works for you. It's hard, but you will do it because you know you need to, not just for you but now also for your shiny new daughter.

Frankly, I wouldn't allow these people near my daughter, but I understand a new mother's need for support wherever it might come from. You've endured their comments long enough. They've helped in their own flawed way. Now they are in the way. Thank them and send them on their way. I know you may be feeling vulnerable with this new awesome responsibility. But you can do it. It helped me to think about the millions of people who have been good enough parents before me.

Take baby to the store with you by yourself. If it doesn't go well (she gets hungry etc) just leave and try again later. Your daughter will tell you if you are doing it "right" or not. Join a mom's club and/or go to the park during the mommy hour. Everyone is stumbling along together and will understand the frayed nerves, sleepless nights, the new division of the world between people with kids and those without, etc etc. Go to a Mommy and Me thing at the local hospital. You will find tons of appropriate support.

Your mother has the need to be right all the time. Just pull out an imaginary mirror next time she opens her mouth and let it bounce back on her.

Peace and love to you and your baby, Miss Piggy.
Title: Re: tried to have a conversation... perspective, please?
Post by: mum on October 01, 2005, 02:14:09 PM: Oh, for cryin out loud, Vunil! You've got one infant to deal with, why should you have to deal with two more (disguised as grown ups). This just gets my Irish up!!!!

Unsolicited advice is one of those HORRIBLE side effects of being a parent. AAAARRRGGGHH.

I remember my exN's mom, wanting to put my first child on a bottle, saying I was breastfeeding "specifically so no one else to share in the joy of feeding him!!!!" I came back from my very first brief walk alone without the baby to find she had stuck a bottle (of water at least) in his mouth (my ex sat idly by as she did this). I was very concerned about "nipple confusion" and had told her in no uncertain terms that he was not to have a bottle of any type. Now, today, I might be a little less freaked out, but as the mother, my wishes should have been respected without question.
So I remember that pain you are feeling....and I know the stuff I dealt with is not NEARLY the crap your parents are bringing on!

Your body has been through a lot, and you have a brand new person to acclimate to the world...and you are now "on" 24/7!!
Sure you need help, but at what cost? You should be supported without question, and anyone who is there to help you should have checked their ego at the door, and should be doing whatever the new mother wants done, exactly how she wants it done! Are they there to help? Really?

Can you get some other help? Heck, if this weren't cyberspace WE would all be over there, taking orders from you and smiling about it!!!
I know it's hard as a single mom, but how bad would it be if they left?
When you set boundaries, your mother summarily ignored them and countered with her own, saying they would leave if she couldn't do things HER way. What's so bad about YOU getting things YOUR way? It's YOUR life, baby , house......

Perhaps the hospital has those volunteers who rock babies in the nursery (we have those here) who also make house calls (who you can fire without feeling bad if they start insisting on how they want things to be....)

Weigh it out....maybe this will be an empowering start to your life with your daughter! To hell with bad parents....starting now.

In a healthy situation, you would be revered, respected and honored. Do it for yourself if you must.
Title: Re: tried to have a conversation... perspective, please?
Post by: vunil on October 01, 2005, 03:51:55 PM: Thanks you guys-- Miss Piggy, thanks for the ideas and the encouragement. I'm still healing now but in a couple of weeks I should definitely start venturing out. I think it would help me feel like "me" again. I am losing that somehow. It helps me see what my childhood was like, but it also scares me a lot.

Mum, your bottle story is exactly the kind of thing that burns me up! I can't believe the audacity of your m.i.l. I had a similar experience-- my mom wanted to try the pacifier. I thought it was too early but she talked me into -- she "knew" it would be ok. Sure enough, my daughter had nipple confusion right after, for the first time. It was terrifying. She got over it, and then two days later I used the pacifier again (in a moment of weakness) and my mom used it the rest of the day. That night my daughter had no idea how to nurse. It was really scary , and this time she didn't recover. Well, what made it so much worse was that my mother kept interrupting me to explain ("explain") that it wasn't nipple confusion. It was XYZ reason. It "couldn't be" nipple confusion. She has I guess received a PhD in postpartum care in the last week. Anyway, of course it was what I thought it was. I was able to let my baby sleep, then to reintroduce nursing and it all worked out ok, but I think I reintroduced the pacifier that second time because my mom was harping on the fact that nipple confusion doesn't exist. And my nervousness and worry when it happened was intensified beyond belief by her arguing with me. Since then she has mentioned the pacifier and how it will be so wonderful when we can use it again, at least once a day. Of course, I threw the damn thing away! The thought that she would use it behind my back definitely occured to me.

I wish I could live with what is good about my parents and not be so swamped by what doesn't work, but N coping is so insideous it warps everything, it makes it impossible for the good to be good because lurking around the corner is the narcissism, waiting to swallow me up. In the end, the N shame and pride always win. And the cost seems to be that those of us caught in a relationship with it are stuck providing the supply, to our own detriment. There isn't any way out! It's depressing. And talking about it just reveals the deep-seeded weirdness. It doesn't help at all. Listening to my mother explain to me that she "had to" "say what was true" was just so odd-- as if she said "I can't help it if I have godlike powers that must be bestowed upon all"-- it would be funny if it weren't so sad. The thought that other people have equally legit truths-- doesn't enter into her brain in the least.
Title: Re: tried to have a conversation... perspective, please?
Post by: longtire on October 01, 2005, 05:18:48 PM: Vunil,
It is your house, it is your life and it is your daughter. You get to make ALL the decisions. If you have people there who aren't helping, you can ask them to leave. If you have people there who are not only not helping, but are making things worse, then you can insist they leave. :twisted: Why make an exception for family? Try not to let this distract you from just enjoying your time with your new daughter. That is the most important job you have right now. :) (Well, OK, feeding and bathing are important too, but you know what I mean. 8) )
Title: Re: tried to have a conversation... perspective, please?
Post by: Stormchild on October 01, 2005, 06:00:32 PM: Quote from: longtire on October 01, 2005, 05:18:48 PM
Vunil,
It is your house, it is your life and it is your daughter. You get to make ALL the decisions. If you have people there who aren't helping, you can ask them to leave. If you have people there who are not only not helping, but are making things worse, then you can insist they leave. :twisted: Why make an exception for family? Try not to let this distract you from just enjoying your time with your new daughter. That is the most important job you have right now. :) (Well, OK, feeding and bathing are important too, but you know what I mean. 8) )

This response is absolute perfection. I can't add to it or improve on it in any way, so I'll just repeat it.
Title: Re: tried to have a conversation... perspective, please?
Post by: mum on October 01, 2005, 06:04:24 PM: Vunil, I think you saw a graphic demonstration (with the pacifier) that not only is your mother NOT helping, she is actually causing you and your child some potentially serious problems. I am sooo glad you were able to get your daughter to nurse successfully again. I know plenty of people who gave up...nursing can be sooo tenuous, you need nothing but total emotional support for it!
Yeah, my exMIL is a piece of work! But I don't have to deal with her anymore (she thinks I caused my ex to cheat on me, and that I should have taken him back no matter what time and again....)
Ok, so we know she is nuts, we know your mom is too.
So back to: how hard would it be for you to take her up on her ultimatum/threat/promise to leave? Seiously think about it...but I know how tough it is to be alone with a newborn....yet, how tough is it now, being undermined?
Hang in there...sending you....um how about this? P\Real, physical support in the form of someone wonderful.....lets see if this works........
in the meantime, we are here, getting riled up for you!!! Get some sleep (oh, and are you sleeping with the baby or nearby? I highly recommend it....hey especially with those N's in the house). That's another thing my exMIL used to give me crap about....yeah, and her kids are so well adjusted.....
Title: Re: tried to have a conversation... perspective, please?
Post by: Marta on October 01, 2005, 06:13:16 PM: Hi Vunil,

You are so brave to be a single mother, and I am so glad that you have a chance to make a mother you never had. I feel really sorry that instead of helping you so that you can enjoy your little baby, your parents have reduced to tears.

Quote
For what it is worth they have never expressed the slightest sympathy, empathy, regret, anything over the abuse and I think I will always resent them for that.
That is really sad. I can see how you are feeling, but you are expecting something from them that they are just not capable of giving, which is empathy and understanding; if you are waiting for things to get better, you can wait all your life. I can really empathize with what it must be like to have to argue for everything under the sun, and how helpless it must feel for you to be dependent on them for anything at all. Of course you have a right to decide what kinds of diapers she should wear.

Quote
It is likely all of that is hanging over our current interactions

Vunil, that is the thing with Ns. It is possible to have a decent relationship with them as long as you continue to buy into their myth of how things were or be their supply. When you threaten this, you’ll see the true pathology underlying Ns, that the good relationship you may think you are having with them is ultimately based on the foundation of you assuming a one-down position and hatefulness, not on love. I have read your various posts re. your parents before, and they’ve made me feel that a lot was lurking there that you had not yet faced. You elsewhere called your parents regular persons with N tendencies, but based on what you describe, they seems like a textbook case of N.

I too did not have a childhood as terrible as some others here. In fact, I thought I had a good childhood for the longest time. My parents did a lot for me, supported my education, were there for me in some ways through my ups and downs in life. It is only when I stopped being who they wanted me to be that I could see how much hatred lay under all my interactions with my mother.

Quote
Maybe I should have them leave?

I’d say take the big leap and have them leave. You’ll realize that you are not as helpless and needy without them as you feel around them. You’ll learn a lot about yourself and about your relationship with them that way. At least that is true for me, being around mom brings out the worst in me. As for now, I’d say hire help even if your parents still visit you everyday, so at least you can get diapers of your choice. This is the time for you to enjoy your brand new baby!
Title: Re: tried to have a conversation... perspective, please?
Post by: Sallying Forth on October 01, 2005, 06:34:13 PM: (((((((((((((((Vunil))))))))))))) Sorry to see you in this vulnerable position with your parents. You don't need extra stress when you are trying to heal from surgery!

It's your home, your life and your baby! You choose what your baby will wear, what kind of diapers she'll wear, how she will sleep, what she will eat, etc. Set that boundary with your parents. Most likely they will bug out when you do this. Your mother already alluded to this happening with your father. Then get yourself some non-familial help until you are ready to resume normal activities.
Title: Re: tried to have a conversation... perspective, please?
Post by: Plucky on October 02, 2005, 01:25:57 AM: Hi Vunil,
I am so happy for you and the baby! Babies are wonderful!
If there is any way you can survive without your parents, do it now. After a month most C sections can walk around and pick up the baby. From what you have told (only part of it, I am sure) it will be much easier without them. Just think how nice it will be to do what you want, rest easy, meet your child's needs without a struggle, etc. I understand how scary it is to have this little life in your hands and at the same time not feel up to par physically. If I could have my own kids over again, the one thing I would do is not be so afraid. Most kids are somewhat sturdy.

When your parents allowed you to be molested and then won't even acknowledge this, that is MAJOR! I am not sure I would be able to have them in the house. How did it happen, if you don't mind discussing it (maybe later)?

Until you finally close the door on them (slam it!), perhaps it would help to have some responses ready. I found that quoting studies always made my N mother back off a bit.

"studies show that children who use pacifiers are more likely to be overweight as adults", etc. If you don't have anything handy, just make up something plausible.

"that's how things were done X years ago, but science has advanced and we know much more now".
"I'm sure you did the best you knew then, but now we know that bla bla bla"
" Yes, we were lucky! but now they recommend bla bla bla because of all those unlucky babies who died doing bla bla bla..."

When they offer to leave, say, "that's your answer? you're going to leave me over a diaper?"

"My doctor says these diapers are the best ones."

"You got to choose what I wore, now I get to choose what she wears."

"My doctor says I shouldn't be stressed out. This is starting to stress me out. It's not good for the baby and I cannot heal properly..."

"Because I'm the mother, that's why."

If they say "she won't die from sids", you say, 'that's exactly when things happen. Right when you think they won't!' or 'this is a life of death matter. Are you sure?'

You get the picture. I hope this is useful advice!

Do get out to a mom's club as soon as you can hail a cabbie. You will find that all moms are sisters under the skin (except those Ns). And you are not the only one having these issues. There's more than one in every crowd.

Good luck and enjoy
Plucky
Title: Re: tried to have a conversation... perspective, please?
Post by: David P on October 02, 2005, 01:43:35 AM: Hey Vunil, Tell 'em not to let the door hit them on the ass on the way out. These folks are beyond toxic. Trade 'em in NOW!

DP
Title: Re: tried to have a conversation... perspective, please?
Post by: vunil on October 02, 2005, 05:56:12 AM: You guys are really helping me get perspective.

Something pretty major happened tonight that will change my plans, I think. I started to bleed heavily (I am only one week past delivery, still healing) and had to go to the emergency room. While waiting for my father to arrive to take me there, my mom said "what will I do if the baby is hungry?" I said I had just fed her and expected not to be at the hospital long; if I had to stay overnight, she could bring the baby to me to feed there. She asked if she could feed the baby formula and I said that was completely unnecessary-- she had just fed. I said if she would feel better I'd feed while waiting for my dad. So, she brings me the baby and encourages me to feed her-- while I am gushing blood! for those 5 minutes.

Ok, we are at the emergency room I swear to you 20 minutes max and she calls my father and asks him to bring her some formula to feed the baby. Remember, I am breast feeding-- for those of you who do not know, you can't just give a baby formula out of the blue, especially when the baby is a week old and the mother's milk has just come in. It screws everything up, from the baby's end (less of an issue since my baby seems un-screw-upable) and from the mom's end (feeding leads to milk production-- you can't just skip feedings without repurcussions-- and pain!). She doesn't ask me. I tell him it has been 20 minutes, that I don't want to give the baby formula. So, they call me back to see the doctor and my dad goes home to get formula for my mom. I am so weak by then I don't know what to say and just say, meakly, ok.

He gets back and tells me (this part gets me the most) "we will only feed her formula if she really needs it." I explain it has now been less than an hour since she fed. There is no sense of "really needing" food at this point. He reassures me (!) that the baby is now sleeping and will only get formula is she "really screams."

I manage to get the emergency room doctor to hurry up everything, telling him my mother will feed my baby formula if I don't get home soon. This lovely man is nothing but sympathetic, hurries things up for me and sends me on my way. I want to cry over the sympathy and understanding of this stranger.

I run out to catch my dad and say "call mom! It has only been an hour and a half, and there is no need to feed the baby, I'm coming!" He informs me she has already fed the baby a bottle of formula because when she woke up she was crying.

I am not sure anyone who is not a mother and/or didn't breast feed can understand what an extreme violation all of this was. It is clear the only reason the baby was fed was to shut her up. My wishes, which have ramifications potentiallly for weeks and maybe months of feeding (and, if the feeding had gotten screwed up, my child's lifetime), were not fully considered much less followed to the letter.

I need them to go home. I am only 1 week past major surgery and it will be scary alone, but this cannot be the way things are. My guilt is over everything they have done for me, which is a lot-- I am going to have to spend a lot of time trying to get everything straight in my mind-- what does it all mean? How do I reconcile the good with the bad? Why does it all feel so... tainted... to me? LIke a devil's bargain?

Whenever my wishes conflict with their wishes, I lose. I didn't get before how dangerous that was for me, as I try to guide this parenting process. And I didn't get how tiring it has all been for me. I will have to try to live with the guilt, and I am going to tell them I won't need them any more after this week (or some other deadline that I'll have to ponder--- something soon while this clarity lasts).

Thanks, you guys. Thanks for being so honest with me. I guess you are right this is all worse than I thought. Then why are they also able to do good things for me, help me? It is still confusing, so late at night. But at least my baby seems to remember how to feed... I do know when I think of them leaving it makes me happy (then guilty).
Title: Re: tried to have a conversation... perspective, please?
Post by: Marta on October 02, 2005, 07:07:04 AM: Quote
LIke a devil's bargain?
Vunil, welcome to the club! The red carpet is being rolled out for you!!! That’s exactly it, the devil’s bargain.

May be “help” is a substitute for real love, like shoving in a bottle when what the baby really needs some rocking or holding or a lullaby. When the cover of this "help" is blown, they are exposed and you can see how little affection or genuine concern there really is in the relationship. You can also see in slow motion what this “help” does to the recipient. Did the baby need the bottle? Was it given to her with the intention of “helping” her? Did the bottle “help” the baby? May be it even could have harmed the baby? May be you are that baby and the bottle was not given with the intention of helping you, but for some other twisted reasons. When you see them handle the baby, do you see them rock the baby, hold her, love her, sing to her, make faces at her, croon over her, pick her up when she cries, dance in joy around her? Do you feel their pleasure comes from just being around the baby, or from their control over her and your life? I think seeing them deal with your baby gives you a pretty good idea about how they dealt with you as an infant.

We trained to feel guilty, trained to acknowledge and roll in gratitude over every little speck of help that is thrown our way. What we never see is an acknowledgement of what we do for them, all the love we shower over them, and all the harm they've done to us.

Quote
My guilt is over everything they have done for me, which is a lot-- I am going to have to spend a lot of time trying to get everything straight in my mind-- what does it all mean? How do I reconcile the good with the bad? Why does it all feel so... tainted... to me?
I was on major guilt trip for most of my life. My parents had spent mega bucks for my education, they were always there to “help” me through ups and downs of life like major surgery, unemployment, or depression. My life changed when I realized that when some people help me, somehow it doesn’t really help. I finally stopped taking help from them; that was my first step towards my liberation. In my own case, I’d say that “help” was a bondage, a carte blanche for them to do whatever they pleased to me. What was called “help” was more like outright purchase of copyrights over my life. If they paid with $ and work hours, I paid with my tears and blood for their twisted “happiness.” In my mind, all accounts are cleared thank you with big credits under my name, and not $ variety either.

As you take your first steps towards facing how bad things really are, be warned that you’ll slowly see a new side of them emerge that you’ve never seen before; like Jekyll and Hyde; then dealing with guilt will become much easier.

For now, I think asking your parents to leave is the best gift you can give to your beautiful D!
Title: Re: tried to have a conversation... perspective, please?
Post by: Stormchild on October 02, 2005, 08:59:33 AM: Hi Vunil

What you are getting from your folks is something called 'intermittent reinforcement' and it is a common tactic with abusers. They do something good for you, and milk your gratitude as an excuse to do fifteen or twenty things bad to you. Then, when you call them on the bad things, they point to the one good thing, with a tear in their eye and their lower lip all a-tremble; or they blow up in your face like a blasting cap, about your 'ingratitude'.

When you catch on to this, and start noticing all the bad things, and become aware of the very skewed ratio of bad things to good ones, they switch tactics and accuse you of 'dwelling on the past'.

It ain't dwelling in the past, it 's pattern recognition, and it's one of the best tools you can have. You've used it a lot already with tremendously impressive results.

If it helps any at all - and I hope it will - you can get help, there are ways around this, but it may come from places you'd least expect, and some of it might need to be a business arrangement. Since that's a pretty blithe assertion without data to back it up, I'll share my own experience, which is pretty drastic, so should be a fair comparison.

I went through major abdominal surgery, and a prolonged convalescence after nearly bleeding to death postoperatively, without any help from my family... one or two 'church ladies' called and asked if I needed anything, but quickly took offense when I listed needs such as having the floors vacuumed [this was a white suburban snob church, and this is how I found that out. They wanted to give me fantasy help they could brag about to their friends. Vacuuming floors? How... crude. We'll send over the maid, dear.] One or two co-workers visited me ostensibly to help, but clearly expected to be waited on hand and foot and entertained by someone who was severely anemic and needed a walker to stand up. Fugeddaboudit.

The one person who helped me was a petsitter I'd already worked with and had made arrangements with in advance, knowing I'd be unable to lift bags of litter or change cat pans for weeks. Turned out that, because of my need, which paid this person 2x/day, 7days/wk, for three months, this person came through a severe dry spell in their own business OK, and was able to firmly establish themselves in business. And because of their support, which was honest and caring to an incredible extent - so much so that I was able to trust them to deposit my insurance check at the bank, and mail my bill payments - they got years and years of extremely solid references from me. [And no, it wasn't all that expensive: less costly than therapy would have been over the same interval!]

You may have some friends or coworkers who are together enough to help, or to screen hired helpers for you. Your doc, if savvy enough, may also be able to recommend someone. If there is a midwife or doula association in the area, they might be able to help too. It would be lovely if your folks were healthy enough to do you and the baby any good, but clearly, it's all about their comfort level, and not about your welfare, or your child's wellbeing, at all.

I'm glad you got home OK after that harrowing ER experience. And I'm glad the ER doc was a good 'un.
Title: Re: tried to have a conversation... perspective, please?
Post by: vunil on October 02, 2005, 10:26:19 AM: Quote
What you are getting from your folks is something called 'intermittent reinforcement' and it is a common tactic with abusers. They do something good for you, and milk your gratitude as an excuse to do fifteen or twenty things bad to you. Then, when you call them on the bad things, they point to the one good thing, with a tear in their eye and their lower lip all a-tremble; or they blow up in your face like a blasting cap, about your 'ingratitude'.

When you catch on to this, and start noticing all the bad things, and become aware of the very skewed ratio of bad things to good ones, they switch tactics and accuse you of 'dwelling on the past'.

How WEIRD. This is exactly what happened when I tried to discuss my childhood with them. They listed stuff they had done for me when I was a kid. Unrelated stuff. Then they told me I needed to be "happy" like they are and not "live in the past." My mom actually wrote me "I hope you can become a happy person, not stay stuck in your childhood. Your father and I are happy people-- I am completely happy with my past and with the present."

Which is weird beyond weird because I AM a happy person. It doesn't make you unhappy to admit you were sexually abused-- I think truly unhappy person could never admit it, actually. I don't think it makes me bad in any way. Well, the truth doesn't enter into any of it, I guess.

Yesterday my mom said that I was being ungrateful and unrealistic because "when you run someone else's household then things won't be exactly like the person wants." But-- something really bugged me about that statement. I realize what it is now. When did I ask her to run my household? Could she provide help that did not come with that power? Is the reason why she is doing it the power? Can't it also be that she does love me and wants to be a good mother, but she just doesn't know how to really consider the needs of someone else above her own? I honestly don't think she knows how to do that, and I don't think my dad does either. I am not sure what need gets fulfilled by helping me, but it is a need because I am realizing how many of the things *I* really wanted/needed never got done and how many irrelevant things did. Isn't that interesting? I think I would feel more on top of this, intellectually, if I could square their narcissism with their helping-- but I guess the answer is they want to be the kind of people who help, to tell themselves they are and to express their love (which I do think they feel) but they just aren't and can't be genuinely helpful because even in helping it has to all be about them. The sad part is I think they wish they were different.

Oh, man, it's complicated. But I need to be out from under it.
Title: Re: tried to have a conversation... perspective, please?
Post by: Gail on October 02, 2005, 11:02:41 AM: Hi Vunil,

The post partum period is really difficult--takes a lot of energy. So, it's normal to want help. But, I have a feeling that the "help" your parents are giving are sapping your energy instead of helping you conserve it.

Are there any grocery stores that deliver? Or do you have friends that could shop for you? As long as you can get essentials delivered to your house, and you have someone you can call if you start bleeding again, you probably are better off alone with your baby. Then, you can rest as much as you can without all this extra drama that you don't need right now.

It just drove me nuts trying to analyze and understand all the crazy making behavior my XH put me through. It helped when I finally realized that it never was going to make sense because he wasn't rational. I remember when we saw a marriage counselor. This was a counselor who was very calm, tried to be non-directive, etc. By the end of the session, he almost had XH by the throat. He was so upset with him that he was shaking. (And I lived with the guy for 24 years!!) The next time I went (by myself, because XH didn't think I "really wanted" him there. Hunh?") the counselor told me H had a severe personality disorder.

I finally came to realize that you can't make sense out of someone who is irrational. It's a futile effort, an energy robber. Expect irrationality from your parents, except for the few times they are rational. (Which is the intermittent reinforcement--the most powerful type of reinforcement there is.)

I had a very similar experience with breastfeeding that you did. I think that an Nmom can feel jealousy about her daughter establishing that close connection with a baby. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm guessing she didn't breastfeed you. If she feels that jealousy, even if she is not conscious of it, she'll try to sabotage you. Breastfeeding is hard enough at the beginning without that.

Even if you "feel" guilty about wanting them to leave, maybe you could think about it as medically essential for you and your baby to establish breastfeeding.

Gail
Title: Re: tried to have a conversation... perspective, please?
Post by: vunil on October 02, 2005, 11:48:57 AM: Quote
Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm guessing she didn't breastfeed you.

She didn't. You guys are amazing. How did you know that? It is also possible that this is an "achievement" she doesn't want me to achieve-- she is sabatoging it. She used to do that when I was growing up-- both my parents did. It is all so sick it's almost unbelievable, which I guess is why I have trouble believing it....
Title: Re: tried to have a conversation... perspective, please?
Post by: Gail on October 02, 2005, 02:05:34 PM: I think along with not wanting you to have this "achievement", she could be unconsciously threatened by the relationship you and your baby will develop because of breastfeeding. Once you get past the first few months, breastfeeding really is a wonderful experience for mom and baby. It's something I really loved about motherhood. I felt it really created a special bond between my children and me that lasted long after breastfeeding ended.

Gail
Title: Re: tried to have a conversation... perspective, please?
Post by: jordanspeeps on October 02, 2005, 02:10:48 PM: hey vunil,

Quote
It is all so sick it's almost unbelievable, which I guess is why I have trouble believing it...

believe it, sweetie! once you get through the realization that your parents are probably hardcore Ns, you will have a better go at how to deal. some of what you're talking about are classic N scenarios--little covert sabotage missions going on constantly, with little lies and misgivings dispersed about. you feel unsure about what you should really be worried about and find yourself getting upset with things you probably shouldn't be as worried about. and it's super-tough when you reach this realization, because in many ways, it's like the pain of grieving the actual death of parent, instead of the death of the fantasy you have of what your parents c/should be. it's like damn! now, i've got to experience all my major life-landmarks alone or with non-family members, and that sucks. in your past, they may have done things that seem to be cloaked in love or concern, but that's just what it is, a cloak. one that covers what dysfunctionality that truly lives within.

"no good deed goes unpunished" goes the cliche, and i think it's so painfully relevant to the offspring of Ns. and N parents love to take times of vulnerability, such as your current situation, which by the way, should be a wonderfully glorious time for you, to work their mind-damaging agendas. accept that they probably, from a dark,deep-seated, unexplainable place, mean no real goodness or happiness for you. some possible reason's they could be "helping" in the midst of thier own Nism.

1. maybe they feel that unique, robotic "Nguilt" that Nparents get that causes them, under the guise of helping, to try to agressively "undo" past offenses by creating new "good deeds," possibly completely unrelated to prior offenses, ones that will not only cancel out the previous egregious act, but will, more importantly create more of a longterm indebtedness to the Nparent. In other words, to shut your complaing up while setting you up to turn the tables on you.

2. maybe they see this as an opportunity to show you just how they feel about what a beautiful, successful, caring, person you've come DESPITE them. maybe, all the criticism and the opposing commentary, is to leave you with the impression that they are dissatisfied with you and your general choices in life, mostly because it somehow opposes the goodnes you emanate.

3. maybe it just looks bad that they NOT be with you during these times given some of the misleading white lies they've told their friends and family back home.

4. or maybe they are just pure evil, so any jealousy, sabotage, undermining, lying, apathy, nay-saying, confusion, unrest, can be
attributed to that.

my two cents, best of luck to you and your beautiful, precious, baby girl. know that you are and will be an excellent mother to your D and if it's any help to you, do what i do when i have any questions along the way regarding the best way to parent my child, considering my Nmother history, i just ask myself, "what would my own mother do?" and then i do the EXACT OPPOSITE! i have a very loving, sweet, beautiful, intelligent, well-adjusted 5 year old daughter, to boot!

tif
Title: Re: tried to have a conversation... perspective, please?
Post by: Plucky on October 02, 2005, 05:32:49 PM: Oh Vunil, that is scary!
I'm glad you came out alright. I had lots of bleeding too after giving birth, for far too long, and the doctor said it was a result of trying to do too much (husband not helping) and/or stress (mom helping).

Do take care of yourself, as much as you can. Let go anything that can slide - housework, thank you cards, etc.

Please understand that I think your parents are not worth having, period. To the extent you tolerate them, you are a saint in my eyes. What your mom did, and all the little things your parents do all day to drive you nuts and erase your identity, would have me on the verge.

However, I would want you to understand that the things your parents are doing are probably more harmful to you in terms of aggravation than to your baby. I know that nursing is tenuous, and I didn't realise it's been only a week! However, there are really no hard and fast rules about nursing and other baby facts you read in books. A baby can indeed recover from being fed formula once or twice. When my son was in neonatal intensive care (1 week old), one sadistic nurse fed him formula repeatedly, despite having my expressed milk available. He went on to nurse for years. While they ought to respect your choices of what to dress her in, try not to get too angry about it. Your baby will be alright. She has you for a mother. Once you set a date when they will depart, you will feel much better.

Vunil, feel free to disregard this advice if it does not ring true for you. And please everyone, I don't need to be flamed or reprimanded for downplaying the N parents' wrongness or Vunil's right to her feelings - I am not doing that. I just think that there is no point in getting really worked up for something that may not be a huge issue in the long run. I don't see how it benefits Vunil to be more and more nervous and stressed if it can be avoided.

As a new parent, it is really hard to separate out the fact from exaggeration. You are treading new ground and may not have good sources of information to hand. It's a great idea to connect with parents of slightly older children.

My best wishes and hugs to you.
Plucky
Title: Re: tried to have a conversation... perspective, please?
Post by: Sallying Forth on October 02, 2005, 06:16:36 PM: Quote from: Gail on October 02, 2005, 02:05:34 PM
I think along with not wanting you to have this "achievement", she could be unconsciously threatened by the relationship you and your baby will develop because of breastfeeding. Once you get past the first few months, breastfeeding really is a wonderful experience for mom and baby. It's something I really loved about motherhood. I felt it really created a special bond between my children and me that lasted long after breastfeeding ended.

Gail

The special bond is what I wrote about in my post, "Receiving now what I needed then and brain changes." It gives the baby eye-to-eye contact with the mother and that gives the baby their identity and you're actually teaching your child how to establish and maintain their first relationship.

" "It is that person who provides that baby with their first sense of what is a relationship with another human being all about," explained Constantino. "And what happens as they grow up is ... that relationship gets internalized in their mind and brain and carried forward, so that their whole understanding and their whole approach to relationships with other human beings is based in large measure on what happens during that first attachment relationship." ...[/i]

I wasn't breast fed for very long because a congenital defect which my mother failed to notice. We never bonded. She never saw me.
Title: Re: tried to have a conversation... perspective, please?
Post by: Sallying Forth on October 02, 2005, 06:26:50 PM: Quote from: vunil on October 02, 2005, 05:56:12 AM
I am not sure anyone who is not a mother and/or didn't breast feed can understand what an extreme violation all of this was. It is clear the only reason the baby was fed was to shut her up. My wishes, which have ramifications potentiallly for weeks and maybe months of feeding (and, if the feeding had gotten screwed up, my child's lifetime), were not fully considered much less followed to the letter.

Whenever my wishes conflict with their wishes, I lose.

And to shut you up too. That is their goal. In their eyes, you don't exist. That baby doesn't exist. It's only them and what they say and what they want and what they think. They are N!

((((((((((((((((Vunil))))))))))))))
Title: Re: tried to have a conversation... perspective, please?
Post by: vunil on October 02, 2005, 06:37:35 PM: Ok, today on "As the Baby Turns"--

I ended up yelling at my parents and kicking them out of my house. I said we would talk tomorrow. My dad said, very angrily, "maybe," meaning he will never talk to me again, I guess. It is amazing how the slightest impertinence sends him into a blind rage. It brought back a lot of childhood memories... He points his finger and asks questions like he is in the courtroom ("did you or did you not say...." and "did we know how long you would be in the hospital? Did we? and he says my name a lot in this ... voice... that is meant to express contempt and superiority). My mom basically melts in insecurity and needs me to reassure her that she, all of her motivations, and all of her actions are ok. This is tough to do when I am trying to explain what is not ok with me. It's actually impossible-- she keeps pleading with me to say I understand and accept what she did and I have this feeling that if I do that then I am back where I started, with no voice, because it isn't ok.

Right before they left, my father came into my room and said, in a furious and "so there" voice: "just so you know, everything in the garage has been put back to where it was before we came here." This was reference to the fact that he rearranged my garage while I was in the hospital (not something I needed or asked him to do). I guess he showed me... ? That was the tone of voice he used.

Now I have to figure out what happens tomorrow. For now the peace and quiet are nice. I am in mourning for the parents I wished I had, that I think my parents would be if they could.
Title: Re: tried to have a conversation... perspective, please?
Post by: vunil on October 02, 2005, 06:42:00 PM: Actually, to be fair I think my mom did feed the baby because it made her feel terrible to hear her cry. That's what she says, and I believe it. It doesn't change that I am upset with her, but I do think there were empathetic, human, reasons she fed the baby. I want to make sure not to think in black and white, because that is what they do and it is what really doesn't work for them. I want to try to see grey where it is there.

I am not sure tomorrow they'll be able to do that, though. I bet they are packing up to leave for good after today even though I said we would talk tomorrow. To them, I am either completely on their side or not, and I indicated I am not by being upset with them. I hope this doesn't escalate to the point where they disown me or something. My dad likes that kind of angry drama.
Title: Re: tried to have a conversation... perspective, please?
Post by: Stormchild on October 02, 2005, 07:31:22 PM: Whew, Vunil. What a mess. Now what you're describing really makes me think about the church ladies too. They kept calling and pushing me to let them go to the grocery store for me - ???? !!!! - I had packed in enough provisions to last me and my cats three months and groceries were the last thing I needed. Push, push, push. Does any of the following sound familiar at all?

-- Oh, there are these really wonderful frozen dinners, you just microwave them for five minutes - uh, well, thanks but I don't have a microwave. --

-- There's this wonderful service that makes soups and stews, you freeze them - uh, well, thanks but I have about 150 cans of soup, stew, hash, etc. Bought all I needed before I went in the hospital. --

-- Oh. Well, is there anything you do need? -- Yes, desperately. I can't vacuum, I can't bend and can't stand up without a walker. The floor hasn't been vacuumed in ten days, and I have cats, so there's cat hair and bits of litter on the rug. --

-- Oh. [long pause.] I'll send the maid over. - No, please don't do that, I can barely move, and the last thing I want is a total stranger in my home. I'm sorry, I thought you meant you would come over and help. --

-- Oh. [annoyed sniff.] I see. [another annoyed sniff.] Well, it's been nice talking with you and I'm glad you're coming along so well. --

-- Thanks for calling. [hang up, swear profusely.]

Sounds to me like your folks are much more in it for the performance and the self-admiration & 'bragging rights' than for you or your baby and the things you need. And yes, that 'living in the past' thing is a dead giveaway that abuse is or has been on the agenda.

Sorry this is happening, but I am glad you can see it. It's a lot less crazymaking when you know for a certainty that you are not the crazy one.

Hugs --
Title: Re: tried to have a conversation... perspective, please?
Post by: miss piggy on October 02, 2005, 07:37:16 PM: Hey Vunil,

Big hugs to you.

Hey, your mom is scared that you finally have her number. She really is scared that she messed up (again) with your baby. You reminded her that her mistakes have lasting consequences (the breastfeeding/formula battle) and she's probably scared herself by realizing how out of control she is. I very much doubt the baby was crying because she was hungry. There are many reasons babies cry. But your mother has to believe that this is why she is messing with your decisions. "The baby made me do it." Your mother is beyond sick. She cares more about her fragile ego needs that another life.

Every interaction with other people is an opportunity to create chaos in someone else's life v. their own. So they take it. Your dad sounds like a real pistol too. Cleaning the garage was just his way of coping with a situation he knows nothing about, but he can feel productive and helpful and tell his buddies what he did. What a guy. Wouldn't you rather he watched football in between doctor visits? If you didn't ask for this type of help, it is called INTERFERENCE. And you didn't ask for it. I can't stand the angry bluster thing. Just yell back at him saying why can't you stand to see me have some confidence in myself? Why are you so scared of your own child having their own say? What's so scary about that for you?

This whole thread could be my life: the "help/gratitude" number (my parents), the intermittment reinforcement (parents), the interference (the BPD in my life) and the "don't dwell in the past or hold grudges/pattern recognition" (my sicko brother). Buh-bye.

The only way out for you, Vunil, is to let go of the outcomes. If they disinherit you, is that a bad thing? To have some peace in your life? Don't miss the drama. Opt for boring peace and serenity. Your d will love you for it.

Good luck, MP

PS Ah yes, the church ladies. We have church ladies who line up other church ladies to cook the actual meals! And feel good and holy about it! :shock: The church lady could have offered to line up someone to vacuum and could have been understanding about it, rather than make one feel like an ingrate or spoiled child. Really.
Title: Re: tried to have a conversation... perspective, please?
Post by: Stormchild on October 02, 2005, 07:46:26 PM: Hi V

I logged off and was on my way to shut down for the nite when it hit me.

Lady, they did it all on purpose.

They didn't want to help, they wanted to come out and pick a fight with you so they would have an excuse for NOT helping.

Like the creepazoids, to borrow a term from David, who pick fights with their waiters so they can have an excuse for not leaving a tip. There was never going to be a tip, the fight was merely window dressing. You were never going to get help, the fight was merely an excuse for them to leave you high and dry and make it YOUR fault.

I get a very very strong feeling that this is the case. I mean - you are in the ER, BLEEDING! Any normal parent would have been half out of their mind with worry over you! All these people can think about is their precious selves!

Toxic, toxic, toxic. Don't let them poison your kid too, dear. And try to get a good night's rest... take the phone off the hook, they'll call you tonight at a time calculated to wreck your sleep for the rest of the night, with mama all in tears, and you'll spend an hour or more soothing HER when the one who needs soothing and apology is yourself.

Don't let 'em play that one on you. Get some sleep.

P.S. - these things aren't always conscious, but that does NOT mean they aren't just as deliberate.
Title: Re: tried to have a conversation... perspective, please?
Post by: vunil on October 02, 2005, 08:25:30 PM: I dunno-- they have done a LOT for me since being here, things I really needed them to do. I think the situation is more complicated and sad-- I think they want to be parents in the way we all want parents, but they didn't have that and have no idea what it looks like or how to do it. It is too hard to give up control, to give up being right, so every interaction has to be driven by those needs, meaning the simple nurturing (that is driven by other people's needs and ceding control) that they want to provide (or want to want to provide) is out of their comfort zone or even abilities.

But I don't want to pretend they haven't been there for me during all of this-- they have. It's just that I can always feel the pull in them toward the things that make me crazy-- questioning everything I want, and taking control of me in ways that are outside of the actual situation and unnecessarily boundary-violating. It is as if in giving something they give themselves away and that feels really threatening, so the giving has to be accompanied by something ego-gratifying like the implication that they know better than I do, or something. Otherwise, it is too scary. So, we have these interactions where they ask me what I want at the store (say) and I give some examples, and they tell me why those are bad ideas, and then they bring me some of them anyway. I still get what I wanted but they haven't been "weak" or whatever their pathology labels pure giving without the negativity in between.

I imagine both of them found in their childhood that any pure, raw, giving spirit was squelched immediately and mocked. I bet this from having known their parents. So now it is tough for them to do it. In truth, it may be tough for me to see it even when they really are being purely giving. There is so much baggage there I am not sure that I can see my way past it. That's something I'll need to think through for myself. Could I ever really trust them? Is everything they do screened through a filter of distrust in me? I know they think that is true, and it may be. I am not sure what would fix that. I imagine people do work to a place where they can get past the past, but I am not sure I imagine that we could do it. I don't know how to do it while still maintaining the fiction that they haven't done anything wrong or had negative motives, and they require that fiction to function.

I want to admit that some of this is me-- I may be unable to hear anything pure and good in them now-- at some point I lost my ability not to be angry at them, deep down. It is always there, waiting. This may be what it is like to be the victim of a sexual abuse, even if it was not at their hands. Maybe I should look into doing some reading on that...

Thanks, everyone. This is really helping me cope with a difficult (and wonderfully magical at the same time) time.
Title: Re: tried to have a conversation... perspective, please?
Post by: Plucky on October 02, 2005, 11:11:38 PM: Quote
I want to admit that some of this is me-- I may be unable to hear anything pure and good in them now-- at some point I lost my ability not to be angry at them, deep down. It is always there, waiting. This may be what it is like to be the victim of a sexual abuse, even if it was not at their hands.

Vunil,
even if you are reacting this way, it is not 'you'. As a child they allowed you to be violated and did nothing to remedy it, not even admitting it. They still force you to pretend it didn't happen. So if you are angry and cannot think well of them, it is their own fault. You are not responsible for any of it. Would you negligently allow someone to be raped, and then expect them to be nice to you afterwards, and pretend you had no role in it? Is that a reasonabe expectation?

Even if your mother might have had a hard time listening to the baby cry, the correct reponse was not to attempt to meet her needs in a way that completely ignored and trespassed on your request. The baby is a person whose needs msut be met. Your mother had needs she wanted to meet. But you are a person whose needs do count and they should be considered. Even if your needs involve simply meeting the needs of your child. And they were not.
Plucky
Title: Re: tried to have a conversation... perspective, please?
Post by: Cadbury on October 03, 2005, 06:30:52 AM: Vunil

First of all many, many congratulations on the birth of your daughter! I haven't been here much recently, but this is lovely news.

Second, I am a single mum and I am breastfeeding my little man, who is now 4 months old, so if you ever want to chat then feel free to PM me at any time. I am feeding now and typing one-handed so this is brief but I wanted you to know that I am with you!

Regarding your parents, some of what they are doing everyone does to new mums. The amount of people who've told me that my son would sleep better on his tummy, or better if I bottle fed him. I get attitudes almost as if Breast feeding is some strange, new-fangled thing only attempted by the insane! The only thing you need to be guided by is what feels right to you and you alone. People unwilling to listen to you are not helping - they are hindering. I know how bad it can feel to be alone. I had pleurisy and a suspected blood clot when I had my son and had to go back into hospital, so I needed help and I know how badly some people can "help"!

I will talk more when I don't have a baby attached, but I hope things are ok with you. I am here if you want to chat so please do.... ((((((((((vunil))))))))))
Title: Re: tried to have a conversation... perspective, please?
Post by: mudpuppy on October 03, 2005, 11:12:06 AM: Hey Vunil,

I don't know if you realize this but you are almost perfectly describing a Karpman drama triangle.

Dad's the persecutor.
Mom's the resuer.
And you're the victim.

Maybe you could do a little reading on that too. Might explain the dynamics of whats going on with your parents better.
Take care.

mud
Title: Re: tried to have a conversation... perspective, please?
Post by: vunil on October 03, 2005, 12:42:14 PM: Never heard of the Karpman triangle-- I'll take a look!

Plucky, I agree with you and that's why I'm mad, exactly, well put.

Cadbury, you are SO right that this kind of N behavior is pervasive, both in pregnancy and early motherhood. People are just very interested in giving advice, even if they have NO idea what they are talking about and/or what they are saying is so obvious that anyone would know it. It is the strangest phenomenon. It's as if pregnancy and childbirth make a woman seem so weakened or something that now she is this idiot to be spoken down to and dominated. I do think some of that is what is going on. It seems to be a human response, along with the more wonderful response that many folks have of just wanting to be supportive and helpful. In fact, I've noticed that folks do one or the other-- become super-nurturing (like the folks on this board have been for me, which has been wonderful) or become super-bossy. And it has been difficult to predict who would become what. People I barely know have been absolutely there for me and good friends have all but disappeared, popping up now and then with really irrelevant advice that sort of lives in the world of childless life but is silly for me now (e.g., do pilates! take chinese herbs! make sure to get massages and pedicures! Meanwhile I am recovering from a c-section in my pajamas with a baby at the breast wondering when in the next few days I'll get a shower.)

Anyway, back to topic :) my mom did ask me to forgive her and of course I did. She is here now. It is awkward but at least we'll work through it. I have a feeling it won't work that way with my dad, but I am realizing he is the N part of the partnership (maybe) and he may get in the way of my relationship with her-- maybe it's best if he doesn't show up for awhile (he didn't come to my place today-- I think I am supposed to feel that as a rebuke but it feels like relief to me). I just can't stop being a little bit afraid of him, always waiting for the other shoe to drop. Children of neglect always have that sense, I think, that inability to trust completely. It sucks... I will make sure my beautiful daughter knows better.
Title: Re: tried to have a conversation... perspective, please?
Post by: vunil on October 03, 2005, 12:53:14 PM: WOW-- I just read about that triangle and it sounds exactly right. It explains one very important thing, too-- how "out of it" and "not me" I have felt in this situation. In life I am not at all a victim-- I am in fact more successful than my parents are, in terms of career, relationships (they have trouble maintaining friendships and have lots of bumpy interactions), whatever. NO ONE thinks of me as a victim or treats me that way and heaven knows I don't, either. So being put in that position, or expected to play that position, has felt awful. I don't want to be cooked for! I don't want to be catered to! Yes, I have to have some help, but not HELP in the victim sense. I want to run my own household. My mom keeps saying she has to run my household for me, that there is SO MUCH to do, that I am incapable of handling it. It has felt odd to me because what is there to handle right now? All I am doing is feeding the baby and sleeping, and handling my work (on the computer-- she doesn't know about it).

So in playing this role for them I feel awful, and the triangle stays where it is. My dad pops by to be judgmental or angry or to make big sweeping statements that contradict whatever I say. In general, the whole triangle tells me two things: you don't know what you are doing/thinking, and we know better and have to take care of you.

Neither of which is true.

Wow, again, thanks. I am going to read more, and also recommend that David P. read up on it. It seems relevant to his family, too.
Title: Re: tried to have a conversation... perspective, please?
Post by: mudpuppy on October 03, 2005, 05:56:28 PM: Hey vunil,

Here's the disgusting thing about these triangles. The perpetrator often makes himself out to be the victim even as he is abusing the real victim. So the rescuer usually ends up siding with the poor little perp.

What a sick game, and I must credit Stormy for putting me onto this dynamic.
I think she started a thread on it on this board and the 'what helps' board.

Hope you can take your leg of the triangle and leave them to just be an obtuse angle on their own.
A little geometry humor there. :P :? Sorry, pretty bad.

mud
Title: Re: tried to have a conversation... perspective, please?
Post by: mum on October 03, 2005, 10:12:32 PM: Vunil.....I need to do some enormous primal scream thing for you.....aAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!
I cannot believe your nightmare of a breastfeeding story!!!! How DARE she! And I'm not sure who said it, but I believe there is an enormous amount of fear and threat for some others (like your mom) when mothers breastfeed. Those who are insecure see the bond that is found there as a threat to whatever....(they didn't breastfeed, they feel they are not good mothers, they don't like anything they didn't do....you name it).

I just wish people could live and let live. You are an adult, you have a child, you are not a child, you make choices as an adult that need to be respected and honored.

I am glad you can "let it go" and allow your mom to help you....but do you really feel good about it? I hope so.
Frankly, I don't exactly buy her tale about not wanting the baby to cry (well, I do think she didn't like the crying, and that she felt bad). I just think it was another "poor me" excuse for doing things her way, especially when they were so very much against your wishes. And, in her "defense" I think she is not the slightest bit aware of what she does, or what drives her actions....life is one big emotional explosion after another for some people....and they are "never responsible" for any of it, ironically enough.

I pray the baby got back on the breast without much problem.
I'm sorry your current physical and emotional state is being exploited.
I also know how hard it is to confront 1) a parent and 2) an N who just doesn't hear anything they don't want to......and post partum on top of it.
So all in all, keeping your head above water....you are doing just great. This too, shall pass. Savor the good stuff....keep boundaries and let the other crap go (as in flush it!).
Hang in there...breathe. Keep that baby close.
(((((((((((Vunil))))))))))
Title: Re: tried to have a conversation... perspective, please?
Post by: vunil on October 03, 2005, 10:42:11 PM: Thanks, Mum. Mom came back today but Dad didn't come-- and when I looked in the garage he had thrown everything into the center of the garage as if to say "ha!", clearly in a big temper tantrum. I am glad to know that my father is 5 years old...

Honestly, you know how I feel about it now that I've had some time to ponder it and dealt with my mom here today, on pins and needles, both of us not feeling that comfortable? How I feel is that I wish I had not had them come. I wish they had visited in the usual way parents do-- just a visit to meet the baby-- and that I had paid for help otherwise. It would have been easier on me and easier on them. I am really REALLY really tired of my family's dynamic. I don't live anywhere near them on purpose. I just see them sometimes, and that is true of my whole family. Some I never see. I just don't want to deal with it any more-- I didn't choose it, I managed to escape it, and I am done with it. I wish this experience had not been tainted by it. Too much of my life has been tainted by it-- it just doesn't work. Il ne marche pas.

I am going to hire someone to help me and find a way to let my parents off the hook, nicely, so that we can go back to our separate lives, which honestly I think we all prefer. I can't stand the way I feel in this ridiculous dynamic, I can't stand that weird pull that narcissism has where no matter what, good times or bad, it is always about them and everything in the room gets sucked into their neediness like it or not, where I never ever feel comfortable. It doesn't matter if they are declaring what will be, if they are feeling hurt over something I did/said, if they are giving to me or taking from me, I NEVER feel safe and relaxed-- I am always aware of being somehow slighted (or victimized) or not heard or explicitly insulted.

I've decided something: If I don't feel comfortable because of something about me, if I am just an angry person (angry at them) if I can't get over something others might get over, if they are being completely and utterly loving and reasonable and I can't live with it or accept it because of some flaw in me... Ok. Whatever. It is still true that I feel uncomfortable and guilty and not myself. It doesn't mean I don't love them-- I do. I just am done with the dynamic. I can't stand it any more. I really can't. It is too uncomfortable. And I don't care at all why it is uncomfortable. I have a right to be happy and to feel myself-- I do in the rest of my life.

I see why people do cut others out of their lives-- I won't do that right now, but I can see that it is possible to do this just out of preference, not necessarily out of anger. After awhile it just gets to be a waste of energy. And if I am misreading everything because of my past, well, they have had the opportunity to atone for my past and they haven't. And in the end, people should get to be around people who make them feel happy. I wish my parents made me feel happy, but they don't. I don't think I make them feel happy, either. But even if I did, what do I owe them (or anyone?). I think I owe a lot less than I have been led to believe.

Thanks for listening :) I think I'm making may way OUT of the victim corner of that triangle.
Title: Re: tried to have a conversation... perspective, please?
Post by: Gail on October 03, 2005, 11:18:38 PM: HI Vunil,

Thanks for your post to me. You said that trying to figure out why xBF would send a particular e-mail would drive me nuts and you were so right about that. A perfect crazy making behavior.

I think there's a bigger lesson in this for both of us and that is this: If someone is constantly causing us to second guess what their intentions are, or make us wonder if we reacted the right way, or if we could have handled a situation better, that person is one with whom a safe, comfortable relationship is impossible.

Learning about narcissism has helped me with something I've been thinking about for awhile, but didn't have a name for it. Some people have the ability to perceive situations correctly, respond adaptively, and have that gift of empathy for others, and some people just don't. Those that don't can make us doubt ourselves and our own perceptions. And for those of us who are susceptible to that self doubt, those people are poison to us.

So, I think you are totally right to have your parents leave, and the sooner the better. It almost doesn't matter why you feel the way you do around them. It's energy draining and joy sapping, and you don't have to take it anymore! :-)!!!

Please forgive if I sound like I'm lecturing. I'm preaching to myself, too!

Gail
Title: Re: tried to have a conversation... perspective, please?
Post by: vunil on October 04, 2005, 03:06:43 AM: Gail-- you are right. It would be one thing if I found I felt uncomfortable around everyone, if my reaction to all people was the same. But it isn't-- my reaction to my parents (and the way I act around them, too) is unique. It must have something to do with them and how they treat me. I have often wished I had an ally to look at them with me, a partner perhaps who could validate how I feel. My siblings can provide a little of that, but they are so different from me that it isn't really that helpful, especially since of course all of the child-parent relationships are different. I sort of crave someone to provide that outside perspective. Maybe someday I'll find that. In the meantime, I have to just trust how I feel.

For years I didn't trust this instinct with men. I *think* I am done with the really terrible NPD men I used to crave, because finally I trust myself when I have that uncomfortable feeling, that off balance sense of being disapproved of (combined with this strong desire to win the approval and relief when I am able to do it-- that addiction to the positive feedback that is hard to come by). At least I can say I haven't partaken of that particular addiction in a long time. I am having a harder time trusting my instincts with my parents, because I only have one set of them and somehow that makes it difficult-- it's not as if I can apply what I learned from this set to the next set :) Everything about the relationship is unique.
Title: Re: tried to have a conversation... perspective, please?
Post by: Sela on October 04, 2005, 10:20:15 AM: Dear Vunil:

Just read through this whole thread and first.....I'm so sorry that your parents are making this so hard for you. They should be helping, not upsetting you, respecting your wishes, not battling with you about them, giving you peace and time to rest, not causing this confusion and using your energy to try to resolve it. I'm so sorry but I agree that these people are not acting to your benefit right now. I'm glad you've decided to to hire someone to help you.

Quote
and find a way to let my parents off the hook, nicely, so that we can go back to our separate lives

is very generous of you, considering many people would be tempted to just tell them straight up to ship out pronto, no worry to their feelings. You really are a very considerate and loving daughter and I'm so sorry that your parents do not recognise this, acknowledge it and value it.

Something struck me when you wrote this:

Quote
... I am done with the really terrible NPD men I used to crave, because finally I trust myself when I have that uncomfortable feeling, that off balance sense of being disapproved of (combined with this strong desire to win the approval and relief when I am able to do it-- that addiction to the positive feedback that is hard to come by...

Could this be a result of what you crave but never received from your parents? Might you be reliving it with men....trying to resolve the need/s your parents didn't fulfill??

It seems to me you have uncomfortable feelings around your parents, that they send you off balance and that you get a sense of being constantly disapproved of and possibly you have a strong desire to win their approval (as any daughter would) but there is no relief because you have not been able to do it. Everything you do, in their eyes, is not approved, acknowledged, valued.

Dear Vunil........you are doing a fantastic job!! You have expressed how much you wish to be the kind of parent you didn't have...for your sweet baby girl (oops! :oops: Forgot to say:

CONGRATULATIONS!!!! YIPEEEEEEEE! YOU DID IT!! YOU BROUGHT A BEAUTIFUL MIRACLE INTO THIS WORLD!!! WAY TO GO VUNIL!!!).

I mean it......you are going to be a wonderful mother. You have shown great patience and consideration and DESIRE to be a wonderful mother.....all absolutely necessary for that to happen.
And it will happen......regardless of their lack of approval, which in the long run Vunil, do you really need it? I know I would want it.....want to be acknowledged and approved etc but they are JUST NOT CAPABLE of approving your mothering, any more than they are of your thriving and surviving in this world, and of your many wonderful contributions and good traits. You are thriving and surviving Vunil!! You will continue to try and succeed at mothering your beautiful baby daughter and you WILL acknowledge and value her, nurture and love her, and care for her the best way you possibly can.

I wish I could instill the deep feeling of being loved and valued in you, that your parents SHOULD have instilled, but I don't think I can. Your child will give you plenty of that, as she grows and you will return those very great and powerful feelings. Maybe you can let your parents drift off into their own world while you focus on that of your darling child and your own. That is a wonderful thing!

Stick to your guns girl. Don't let these people mess things up any further. Send them on their way and get on with raising your lovely daughter, and continue doing a better job than them (which you are already doing because you CAN stand your child crying....if it is reasonable at the time. Infants have no other way of releasing tension and will cry when they need to and you WILL stand it and not put YOUR NEEDS ahead of your infant's, like your mother did and still does... with not just you but now....your child. You WILL do a fantastic job compared to that!! I just know it!!!

((((((((((((((Vunil))))))))))))))))

Sela
Title: Re: tried to have a conversation... perspective, please?
Post by: mum on October 04, 2005, 07:59:05 PM: Vunil. In your last post you mentioned how very "wrong" ( my word) things feel with your parents.
It reminds me of a song (can't remember who sings it) where the refrain is basically...."if it hurts this much...IT"S NOT LOVE!!"
Love is NOT uncomfortable. Love is not defensive, accusatory, guilty, shameful, difficult or ANYTHING negative. Relationships are tough, but true love, parental or romantic is NOT a negative feeling. Confusing maybe, but when one party feels bad on a regular basis because of the person who they "love" or who "loves" them.....Well, plain and simple...it's not my definition of LOVE. And we all get to define it for ourselves.
Mine does not involve a raftload of pain. I used to think that (that's why I married a few N's!) but I know better now.

So this visit of your parent's although difficult, was not a waste or a mistake. You learned SOOOOO much! Now you know ( a lot)

Keep keeping those healthy boundaries. You have a VERY lucky baby to have been born to such an amazing mom.
Title: Re: tried to have a conversation... perspective, please?
Post by: Plucky on October 04, 2005, 10:21:21 PM: Hi Vunil,
how's it going? How's the baby? Are they gone yet?
Just a short comment. In many of your posts, you sound as if you are afraid or uncomfortable criticising your parents, or thinking ill of them, or not being appreciative enough of the things they do to 'help' you.

I understand this. You want to be fair and grateful. I was brought up to be a nice girl too.

I don't know the whole story, but the one thing that I can not swallow is that they let you be molested and then forced you to sweep it under the rug.

Maybe this is a bad time to start to process all of this. But to me, no matter what good things they may have done, or in your case, somewhat good mixed in with doubtful or clearly bad things, nothing could ever make up for that.

If you kicked them out and never spoke to them again, if you took all their money and made them live in a shelter, if you demounced them to the secret police and had them tortured, nothing would be sufficient punishment or payback for that.

They somehow have you thinking that you need to be grateful and even handed in dealing with them. Too bad those highminded ideals don't apply to them.

Being a single parent is a challenge, and you need to do whatever works for you. But at least don't hoodwink yourself into thinking that you need to be so grateful to them and so careful not to do anything unfair, uneven, unreasonable, to them. They do not have the same standards when it comes to interacting with you. And they never will.

Your mother may be better than your dad, but doesn't that make her an enabler? And when they play good cop, bad cop, aren't they still both cops?

Plucky