Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: David P on October 09, 2005, 06:06:52 PM
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Hi all, I saw a new therapist at the end of last week. We did the usually 'history taking' and she seemed to be Ok so far. This time I am more wary of just 'handing myself over' to a T and expecting that she will automatically have my best interests at heart. Time will tell.
I also said to her that I do not EVER want to hear, "Your parents did the best that they could at the time". She nodded and made a note.
Another appt in 10 days..
DP
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David,
"Your parents did the best that they could at the time".
Doesn't that just pi$$ you off to hear? I can't tell you how many times I've heard that over the years and it makes me want to puke. Talk about invalidation? Fortunately, my T has never suggested this and in fact places most of the blame at the feet of my parents.
If that's true, how come I was able to do such a good job parenting my children with such crumby role models? Anyone can make a choice to treat people better than they were treated. It takes having a conscience, a sense of caring about the job you have taken on (being a parent) and loving those children more than you love yourself.
Brigid
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David and Brigid,
I too hate that phrase used so often by therapists and other people. My Nmother even had the gall to say this to me more than once. ... the best she could do at the time ... bullcrap! That line of crap infuriates me! :x
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I think there is a point, at least I feel I am there most of the time, where you can say to yourself, "my parents did the best they could." But that only comes after a lot of work, maybe years of work, where you go back and greive what needs to be greived, get angry about what needs to be railed against and finally come to that spot yourself. To hear it right off the bat or even in the first months or even years of therapy is invalidating. It comes off as a lazy therapist trying to immediatley jump to the ending of the story, without assisting you with the very labor intensive and all important mid section.
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Thanks to you guys for 'agreeing' with me about that pukefying phrase" They did the best that they could'.
As Brigid ponts out -Parents have choices about how they treat their children and how they parent those children. It is not compulsory not is it automatic to blindly pass on some or all of the abuse that you suffered to your children. Therefor if parents do abuse their children, they are doing so in self interest or because they are too lazy to challenge and change the modeling from their own parents.
Am I being too blunt or harsh or confrontive here?
However I am tired of hearing all the excuse making which is frequently disguised as 'understanding'.
David P.
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The problem with that phrase is it is too vague. Either it means "don't be angry because you couldn't expect better" which isn't helpful at all or it means "people have certain capabilities and they can't surpass them" which is true but kind of tautological and not particularly a useful thing to say to someone trying to figure things out.
I think what it WANTS to mean but is very inarticulate about saying is "it is helpful to understand what limits people, including your parents, so that you can understand better why they acted the way they did-- what constraints they were under" but the problem is the phrase has the word "best" in it which throws the whole thing off. It all sort of implies that you are not allowed to be upset, which is the wrong thing to tell someone who has been told they were wrong their whole life as it is!
I have been told this "they do the best they can" by friends when I have been upset with other friends and I always sort of took it to mean "I don't feel like listening to you complain." Which would be a weird thing for a therapist to say!
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Hey Vunil, I love the way that you dissect stuff and explain your take on things.
I do agree that,when friends and co-workers say, "they are doing the best they can" then they are really telling you to shut up and quit protesting. How does anyone know what another person 'best ' is? And if we do not know the limits of other peoples action-taking abilities, then how do we know that that have done all that they can do right up to those limits.
This whole concept of people" doing the best that they can" is dishonest and deceptive and usually has a hidden agenda.
On the subject of T's, I have no idea why a professional T would say that unless it for one or the reasons that you mentioned above. It pisses patients off to hear that because it can easily be heard as the T making excuses for the N's behavior and thereby invalidatiing the victim and their suffering from that abuse
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This thread got me thinking about an aspect of narcissism that has been really bothering me--the analysis of why people are narcissists. Almost everything I have read blames it on the parents of the N--that it was a reaction to how they were treated and that, because of the mistreatment they suffered, they are "unable" to feel empathy for others. But some people who are narcissists had parents who loved them and treated them well. And some people had N parents, yet made the decision that they were not going to treat their own children badly and tried very hard to overcome their upbringing.
Yes, I believe we have tendencies toward certain patterns of behavior, and certainly our childhoods affect us a great deal, but Moira told us how her mother egged on her father while he was beating her. Surely, they had to know they were doing something very, very wrong, yet chose to continue to do it. If a therapist said they "were doing the best they could as parents", it would be a travesty.
I think some people just get off on being mean. I wonder what kind of inner dialogue they have with themselves. "Gee, that little bit of cruelty sure was fun. When do I get to do it again?"
Gail
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Gail,
I think some people just get off on being mean.
This is true and so is the opposite--otherwise we wouldn't have sadists and masochists as part of the make-up of society. I do think though, that if those S & M folks were analyzed, in most cases you could probably find reasons for it in their childhoods. But it's one thing to confine that behavior to others who also get off on it, versus taking it out on innocent victims.
Going back to the original point of this thread, for someone to make a statement regarding someone else doing the best they could is pretty ludicrous. Especially a therapist who has never had any contact with those parents. How could she possibly know this? Everyone has bad times in their lives that can affect their behavior for a time. We can and should excuse this and be sympathetic. To continue the negative behavior forever, using the excuse of not knowing any better or not being able to help it, is absurd. Of course you know better, and if you need help to get better, then you should damn well get it.
Brigid
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Bliz:
I think there is a point, at least I feel I am there most of the time, where you can say to yourself, "my parents did the best they could."
Bliz, I am interested in your comment. I guess I am trying to tie it back to the discussion we had about Katrina (guys, no flaming please!!! ) I remember you saying that you felt the victims had some responsibility for evacuating themselves, but now it seems to me that you are saying that you are absolving your parents the responsibility of not intentionally being destructive towards you. To me, if we say that sadist parents did the best they could, then everyone pretty much is doing the best they can (even Saddam :shock:,) and there is no role for free will or self-responsibility in this universe. :? Am I missing something? I am interested in hearing more about how you've come to this point for yourself, for I am in a great metaphysical quandry over it.
David, that's pretty nifty of you, to have moved on to a new T in less than 2 weeks. Congrats!!!!
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Hi David and all,
David, Congratulations on moving on to a hopefully more competent therapist. I also applaud your initiative on telling her what would be a big turn-off for you: doing the best they can statement.
I also want to say THANK YOU to you all for the following statements. I just feel so relieved and heartened to know that others feel the same way about certain issues.
Brigid:
a sense of caring about the job you have taken on (being a parent)
Bravo. I wish more people realized that becoming parents isn't just a stage of life for the parent, but a responsibility to others (the kids). That's what makes it such a milestone. My psycho SIL thought of it as a keeping up with the Joneses type of thing. Then expected us to do the heavy lifting of actually raising the kids. I still feel so sorry for those kids.
David:
I am tired of hearing all the excuse making which is frequently disguised as 'understanding'.
I'm really tired of this too! You should hear all the excuse-making for bullies at my school. It's disgusting. One almost has to remind everyone of who the true victim is. Bullying isn't a problem for the bully!!! Again I say, just because they can't help it doesn't mean it doesn't hurt! I mean, g*d-d*mn!!
Vunil:
I appreciate your analysis also. In addition to friends not wanting to hear us complain, I am afraid some of our friends are also as overwhelmed by parenting as our parents were. So to criticize our parents is the same as criticizing them. What makes people so afraid of asking for help or information about something they are struggling with? I would think pride could lead at least some people to want to do a good job!
Gail:
I think some people just get off on being mean.
Yes, yes, and YES! It took me so long to get this. I mean, how stupid and naive could I be? I was steeped in religious doctrine and the Golden Rule (never mind that I had one mean brother despite similar indoctrination) and could never figure out how other families could allow such meanness. How other people could tolerate mean people as friends. It just stumped me. I would think, gee, I think I'm being kind and nice and polite and giving and I am just getting walked on. What am I doing wrong? I see my daughter going through this now as she is navigating Mean Girl World.
This thread got me thinking about an aspect of narcissism that has been really bothering me--the analysis of why people are narcissists.
Me too, Gail. I have to reject the "nurture" aspect that I hear a lot from Ts. I really think it is the wiring in the brain that already exists. This wiring is affected by upbringing for sure but the wiring had to already be installed. The Jerk Gene. I think someone released a study about MRIs and empathy that might back this up. My theory is some people are born jerks!
Overall (in response to Marta and the entire thread) I feel people just have different agendas and good parenting is one of them or it isn't. Saddam's priority was power and power and power. Kill or be killed--literally. So he trained his spawn how to kill. Pretty creepy stuff. Kids are either people or pawns.
Thanks everyone for loads of validation here. David, you go, dude!
MP
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I think "they did the best they can" is similar to my current pet peeve-- when friends (and it is ALWAYS people who have no experience whatsoever with the situation) say "well, that's what it's like!" when I try to talk about something in my life, for the most part pregnancy (before) and having a small baby (now). I have gotten so I don't talk about my life too much with folks who have not been parents because I get so much of this--- this could be because my parent friends are much less N than my non parent friends, for lots of reasons (not that people who are not parents tend to be N-- just people I chose as my single friends because of a number of reasons having to do with lifestyle, and me).
But there is nothing more irritating than telling someone you are exhausted from being up all night with a screaming baby and being told "well, that's what it's like!" It is never really true, anyway-- sometimes the baby sleeps well, sometimes she doesn't, parenthood isn't "like" any one thing in particular. There is something so invalidating about that comment.
It reminds me of the other comment because both sort of mean "it is the way it is, so have no reaction to it."
That's so dumb. Just because things are a certain way has no relation to whether it is natural to react to it
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I look at one incident in my Nmother's life and this tells me the story of CHOICES and FREE WILL play an important role in N's lives. My Nmother went to a psych's office and CHOSE to not look at her horrendous childhood. She was not WILLING to do it. It wasn't that she could not. No one held a gun to her head and said, "You've got no choice. No free will. No responsibility. You will do what I say." :lol: But she sure has acted like that.
More like she did the best she was WILLING to do, not the best she could do.
And I believe it is the same way with parenting. She MADE CHOICES of her own FREE WILL. She could have made other CHOICES.
I made choices to act differently than her. Just like her I had FREE WILL and CHOSE to treat my child differently than she treated me.
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Good point, Sallying Forth, about doing the best she was willing to do. That's it. That's what we're complaining about. Having choices, taking responsibility for them and our parents totally whiffing on the whole thing.
Vunil, I know exactly what you mean about non-parents (no offense to anyone). But this is exactly the dividing line between those who have "walked a mile" and those who haven't (just like war buddies). What I don't get is people who have walked the mile and still say "that's the way it is". Like would it kill you to offer a little sympathy? Why can't people offer up some kindness and understanding anymore? It seems way more suspect than legalizing marijuana nowadays.
I mean, would a war vet say to another war vet "hey, that's war, life is cheap, so get past it,"? No, I think they might not want to talk about it, but they might nod knowingly.
Bottom line: I think most people want to know and experience the fact that other people care about them and the fact that they walked the earth for a little bit. My opinion only.
MP
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Putting a gun over to your head argument in this case could be oversimplistic. I mean, many of us here engaged in destructuve behavior, not because we are bad human beings, but simply as a response to our upbringing or simply because we didn't know any better. No one held a gun at my head to be with an abusive therapist for years, but that is what I did. I did not choose to do so because I wanted to hurt myself, but simply because I didn't know any better. At what point do we stop giving a break to someone (by saying they are acting this way simply because they don't know any better,) and say that their decisions were *consciously* taken out of free will?
Could it be that it all boils down to having a conscience? May be that is the force of gravity that keeps us from deviating too far from the center? But then, how could holocaust happen, for certainly a nation full of people could not be without conscience? Oh, now I am rambling, but "did the best they could" truly stumps me and I've simply not been able to come to terms with this one in a satisfactory way for a long time.
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Hi Marta,
I think this is really a complex issue and one I've been really grappling with. I came to realize that I had to take more responsibility for the way things have turned out in my life. Yes, I learned to discount my feelings as a child, but now I'm a middle aged adult. I've really been in a lot of pain over the breakup with BF since it lasted 2 years. I knew I would be but still took the step to "pull the plug." Why? Because I realized I, and only I, chose him. I chose to start a relationship that had early warning bells, and I chose to stay in it past the point where I knew the story would not have a happy ending.
The real wakeup for me was when a friend gave me a book about narcissism. I've said before that she gave it to me because xH was giving me a bad time and she thought it would help me cope with him. It did help me understand him better, but I could also see BF all over the pages. And another friend gave me a great book called, "Sex and the Soul of A Woman." It showed me that I probably wouldn't have even considered this particular man as a serious long term romantic interest if we hadn't been physically intimate too soon and if he hadn't been so darn handsome. (I've tried to imagine me putting up with his bs if he wasn't so good looking, and I wouldn't have stood it. Hard to admit that I'm so shallow! :D)
So, I gained some knowledge and insight. The choice then became, "Yes, I can see how vulnerable I was, why my internal compass was faulty, and why I put up with really lousy treatment. But now, what am I going to do about it?" I came to a point where I knew I had to make a choice, and that the only one that gave me a chance for a healthy life from here on out was to end the relationship.
It seems to me that when parents see that their children are suffering because of their words/actions, they have a choice to make. They can accept responsibility and seek to find out why they have caused that suffering and how to do better, or they can choose to block out that small still voice of conscience and continue to hurt their innocent children that they should be protecting.
As far as husbands cheating on perfectly good wives, I have a hard time tying that to childhood trauma, especially when it occurs late in the marriage. I think, in most cases, the husbands have a disatisfaction with their middle aged lives, and start going down roads they shouldn't instead of working it out with their spouses. Before they know it, some sweet young thing has turned their head, or they're so involved with porn that wife doesn't look so great any more, and eventually the inevitable happens which is the end of the marriage.
Gail
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Hi Gail, thanks for sharing your story. Yes, it is a complex issue indeed. Einstein did not believe in free will...Still, its good to keep thinking about it, may be someday I will find an answer I can live with.
MP, yes, power does corrupt. It is so hard for me to understand why anyone would prefer power over love.
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As Brigid ponts out -Parents have choices about how they treat their children and how they parent those children. It is not compulsory not is it automatic to blindly pass on some or all of the abuse that you suffered to your children. Therefor if parents do abuse their children, they are doing so in self interest or because they are too lazy to challenge and change the modeling from their own parents.
David,
It's pretty clear to me that you're not interested in an alternative viewpoint, but I'm going to offer one anyway. I've thought a great deal about this issue, and I have come to conclusions that are somewhat different than the prevailing wisdom here. However, this is just my own experience and thought process--no one is "right" or "wrong" in how they feel about this very sensitive subject, of course.
I do believe that my mother did the best she could at the time, although her best was often not very good--and was, in fact, quite damaging to her children in consistent, easily identifiable ways. There are four children in my family, and each of us bears slightly different versions of the same scars.
But after a great deal of thought, pain, and work, I've come to believe that she, like all of us, was a prisoner of her personality. She could only view the world through the lens of what her personality allowed her to see. It is the narcissist's tragedy that he or she cannot even perceive the need to change. Has any of us known a narcissist who said, "I am hurting the people I love, and I need to change in order to stop that"? I would sincerely doubt it. These people will go to great lengths to turn the pain they are causing into something--anything--other than what it is: the consequence of their choices and actions. They are incapable of seeing the cause-and-effect connection between what they do and how people react to, or feel about, what they did.
Are narcissists capable of changing? Possibly. I really don't know. But I know that in the case of my mother, her behavior was consistent and deeply ingrained. She has always had remarkable unity of character. She does not apologize; she does not "own" her behavior without catastrophizing whatever consequences that behavior has wrought. She can't say, "I'm sorry I hurt you" and mean it. She has to say, "Oh, so now I'm the worst mother in the world." I'm sure you get the picture.
But. Despite her unmitigated narcissism, she has loved her family to the extent that her personality allowed. That doesn't undo the damage, but it does allow me to admit that imperfect love is still very real love. Her love was always distorted because it had to pass through her personality on its way to expression. But that does not negate its existence.
My mother has been critically ill. I am forced to admit that she probably won't be around much longer. All the things about her that drove me nuts for over 40 years are probably non-issues now and forever more. But I know one thing for sure: Love survives. Imperfect, barbed, and painful, but alive. I was alone in the hospital with her one night recently, and she turned to me. For one moment she was completely herself, and yet more than herself. She said, "My darling girl. What would I do without you?" And though I am damaged by how she treated me, I knew that I forgave her for everything. Not because it's suddenly OK, but because I knew that if I didn't, I could not let her love survive in me, and so I would not be able to grieve her.
Sometimes that phrase which you find so nauseating expresses exactly the truth. Some of us are capable of surpassing ourselves, of growing, of suspecting that we can learn to be different and reaching toward that difference as a plant reaches for light. Some of us are not, but they can love us to the extent their capabilities allow. Disability comes in many forms, I think, and emotiional disability is very real. Most of the time, I think narcissism is a prime example of it.
Just my $.02, of course.
best,
daylily
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Hi Daylily,
once again you have beautifully expressed a complex and understandable point of view. Thank you.
Plucky
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David,
I wanted to with you the best with your new T. You sound so confident about what is exceptable and what isn't. You are very inspiring.
The very best to you.