Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: CC on December 10, 2003, 01:36:52 PM
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My mother called me this morning and was hysterically crying. She says she's been like this for four days, and I believe her.. because I know she is devastated. She said that the first day after I confronted her she felt almost suicidal. She was trying not to call but that she really wanted to know if we were going to be together for the holidays or not. She was crying perhaps not out of true sorrow, but out of fear of losing me altogether after our last episode (see Free Ticket to the Theatre thread).
She was extremely contrite, apologetic, and seemingly sincere that she had hurt me so badly. I stayed on the phone with her for ten minutes while she went on crying, asking would be be together for the holidays, or will she ever see me again. I vascillated between numbness (consciously trying to remain numb) and overwhelming guilt and sadness. I did not elude to any of these feelings, I simply told her that after some more time passes that things will be okay - that I loved her as my mother but I just wasn't going to let her hurt me anymore. I told her she needed to suck it up and get through this. That since she has admitted she is "emotionally immature", to consider this a lesson and learn from it and move on. I did say I planned on going through the holidays as we always had (which includes my husband and I going to my mother;s house Christmas day for brunch).
Its tearing me up to see her like this - I have never seen her so upset since my father died. I am upset too, though I am more distracted than she is. But I am worried about my upset hurting the baby. A large part of me wants to go over there and put my arms around her, and comfort her for a few minutes just so she can pick her head up and go on.. She is 76 years old, alone and frail. I know I can do this without losing my ground, I know after this last thing that things will never be the same between us. But I am confused about whether or not I should.
Perhaps I will send her the wrong message. I am truly confused here about compassion and kindness and protecting myself. I think I would feel better too if I comfort her a little, but why? because I feel guilty and I need to redeem myself, or because I truly feel like I want to be kind to her out of pity?
Even as I write this though, I see how when she called me even today in her own self pity - that it is still about her sadness and not mine. But that's the only way she can see it. She kept saying how she was horrible, and monstrous, and she didn't even see how much she was hurting me. I don't know what is the truth, that is the problem. I don't think she even knows, she is in pain herself.
The pain I heard in her voice was that of a little child who feels helpless and desperately needs comfort. I have experienced the same pain in my inner child sessions many months ago - but I was able to receive the comfort that I needed from my counselor, people here, and my husband.
If my husband was home today he would say "just stop thinking about it, its not good to worry about this stuff when you're pregnant". yeah, right?
How can I stop? I feel like I need to take some action to put this behind me. I feel like there is a cloud lurking over me for the holidays that I desperately want to remove.
Any help would sure be appreciated. I am feeling so sad today. The anger has left me. I feel like I have really hurt my mother, even though intellectually I know (and I've even said this to her) that she has hurt herself. She even agreed to that. Haven't I punished her enough? Perhaps now I am only punishing myself by drawing it out.
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Hi CC:
It is understandable and even expected that you would feel guilty, and in fact have a lot of strong feelings right now. I think it is important to remember that you did not cause your mothers pain. You did not cause your mothers pain. You did not cause your mothers pain. You stood up for yourself in an appropriate and admirable way. You did peel off a layer and force her to look at the pain that is inside of her (that was caused by someone else.) You forced her to look at her own shortcomings as a mother. You made her uncomfortable by giving her an unwanted dose of reality. That’s OK. You did the right thing by having a little Truth-telling session with your mother and of course it will be hard for her to swallow, but it is still the Truth. Continue to stand firmly but gently. It is up to each of us to find our own comfort when we are in pain. It isn’t anyone else’s responsibility. It is not your responsibility to make her pain go away, in fact, you cannot. I still say Hooray for you and what you did. It was hard for you and it will be hard for her. This is how we grow.
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cc,
I say this without rancor: your mom is very manipulative. Yeah, she's old and frail. Yeah, she's clueless and doesn't "get it." But you know what, you are pregnant and your baby comes FIRST. Your husband comes NEXT. and your mom is a distant third. She will NOT RESPECT YOUR LIMITS if you go to her and comfort her. You will start at square one again. You must teach her limits. This is the only way. I know from experience. If you are in therapy, get support for your guilty feelings. They are natural feelings but acting on them will reverse the limit-setting.
bunny
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Hi CC,
Have to chime in with Simon here...I see this reaction on the part of your mother as fear of change in the status quo. But this is her concern, not yours. Her phone call was an attempt to get someone (you) to rescue her from these frightening feelings caused by change. There she goes again, giving you her "bad" feelings of first anger (you have nixed that) and now sadness (that might work!) Think of how upsetting it would be for an angry person to learn that they have lost their best, most comfortable punching bag! "I really need my punching bag, I miss my punching bag, I hope you'll always be my punching bag, etc..."
Take the phone call as a sign of progress, a test of your resolve (you passed!). You may also be feeling some discomfort with the change yourself--it's going to be different for you, too. It will be easy/tempting to fall back into old patterns.
We voiceless ones need to learn how to move through our guilt as much as we hope Ns will learn different, less hurtful ways of moving through their pain. I think this kind of guilt can be defined as being made to feel responsible for others' feelings (not guilt over our own wrong-doing). Think of how strange that is! We should feel responsible for just one set of feelings--our own!
Perhaps think of these crys as labor pains (after all, it is laborious :) !) You're giving birth to more new life than you first thought, CC! :shock: But no one can get your mother through her pain, any more than someone else can feel your labor pains for you. She needs to take responsibility for her emotions.
Be glad that you are both feeling something different. Life will go on. It just feels weird right now. Reward yourself and do something nice for yourself that will take your mind off all this junk. Take care, S.
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I feel like I have really hurt my mother, even though intellectually I know (and I've even said this to her) that she has hurt herself. She even agreed to that. Haven't I punished her enough? Perhaps now I am only punishing myself by drawing it out.
CC,
You are feeling guilty because your mother trained you to be that way over all these years. Anytime we see anyone hurt we feel EMPATHY not necessarily guilt. You put yourself in your mothers shoes and you know you would be hurt if your child said those things to you. But CC, if your mother truly was remorseful for her nasty deeds, don't you think she should just come right out and say so. I just am not feeling any pain for your mom right now. Even with the empathy that I feel for her, pain is just not a feeling that comes to mind.
Some of the things that came to my mind when I read your post is that your mother is playing the guilt game, manipulating you into taking responsibility for all of the events, including her actions which led up to the confrontation. I feel your mom is laying the foundation for a miserable holiday and will sooner or later blame you for it because of the confrontation you had with her. I also feel thought that your mom will now try to use the "Wounded Mother Act" more so because of your pregnancy. She knows it will now get to you more.
I am not saying it is horrible to want to comfort her right now. What I am saying is that I feel you can judge a persons intentions and future actions by their past. Just take a moment and reflect back through out your years with your mother. There surely is a pattern right before your eyes. I can only speak about my mom. When I sit and think of an incident like this with my mom I know for a fact the woman is out for pity and she is setting me up for the blame for the next 100 things that happen to her. Ok fine I have hurt my mom with some of the things I have said. But CC, never has that woman ever said to me, "Mindy, you are so mean and hurtful when you talk to me like that BUT, you have the right to say what you did. I am sorry for ..............I know I should not have.............. I take full responsibility for my actions.............!!!!!!"
So I guess I am saying I am getting that same impression about your mom. I can imagine what your holiday is going to be like. Knowing my mom it could go one of two ways. She might want to make me have hell to pay for my words to her, or she might go out of her way to give me the time of my life in hopes that I will feel guilty for even saying anything to her. That way she could make me doubt my own feelings and memories again. I just don't trust my mom as far as I can throw her. There is always an underlying theme to her missions.
Please be careful with your mother right now. You have the baby to think about and its damn time someone else comes before your mother.
Jaded
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CC,
As emotionally difficult as it is to deal with narcissistic type people/behaviors (and I have to say based on your previous thread, you have been exposed to extreme Nism with your mom, unfortunately) YOU CANNOT TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF AND TAKE CARE OF OTHER PEOPLE'S FEELINGS AT THE SAME TIME. While your mother will not likely change or come to terms with a comprehensible understanding from your perspective, you can chose to maintain a relationship that suits you, knowing the capacities and limits of your mother, with expectations in line and boundaries in place. Your sanity and well-being has to come first. Easily said, I know, but when faced with this type of character disorder it becomes your sanity and happiness or hers..... your choice. Sorry I hope this doesn't sound cold-hearted towards your mom as I didn't mean it to, just for you to take care of yourself first and foremost.
take care and congrats on becoming a new mom.
Seashell
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Dear Friends,
I am greeted with such kindness and caring when I post here. Thank you, thank you thank you for your words of support and encouragement.
I agree with each and every one of you. A dangerous trap, indeed. Unfortunately, my deeply rooted defense mechanism or "need to fix it" overtook me before I received your responses.
You will probably be disappointed to hear this, but I went over to my mothers after writing the first post today and suggested to her that we go out to do some Christmas shopping at Target to get out of the house for a little while. When I arrived at the door, she burst into tears and I could see she had been crying all day. She repeated again, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry.
While I was a little annoyed with myself for succumbing to the need to go over to her house, I managed to remain extremely calm and detached in spite of her emotional state. I said simply, "its not healthy to sit in the house and cry for a week, let's go out and do some shopping to get in the mood. I don't want a cloud hanging over us over the holidays".
We went out for an hour and a half, and there was very little dialogue. I think my mother really needed it - she said she felt much better when I dropped her off. Perhaps I shouldn't be the one to fullfill her needs, but I just imagined a very unpleasant holiday unless I got the ball rolling.
Seeker, you are right that both of us are uncomfortable with the change. I guess that's why I am easing into it. I did tell her I would not be seeing her Friday since we went out today for a little while, and she was fine with that.
Jaded, I agree with most of what you said. I do want to mention that while its possible she is not being sincere, she has been owning up to it and taking responsibility for the most part. She has said the words, "I know, I caused you great pain and I will never do anything like this again. I just never knew how you felt". Part of me I'm sure is denying the reality of her sincerity, and you see right through that. On the other hand, there are always varying degrees of this disorder depending on the individual, and this is the part that I struggle with sometimes (Just how sick is she?)
Rob, I think you and I have a lot in common because we still struggle with too much entwinement with our parents. We are both just now learning how to "make the break" and it is sooooo hard. We need to remind each other, as we've been doing lately - not to slip and get caught in the web. Please be careful about the holidays. I really do understand if you cannot bring yourself to say no altogether to spending time with them. I am unwilling (almost said unable, but it really is a choice) to completely cut Nmother out. Perhaps you can agree to a short visit for an hour or two (dessert, or something) to ease yourself out of the obligation and guilt. Make that small commitment and stick to it, not allowing her to do convince you of any more. Be firm.
Thanks very much again for your support, I wonder if I would have done anything differently had i read this sooner...
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CC,
I was thinking about something and I found myself thinking about some of the things I have thought and felt about dealing with all of this emotional baggage. Unconditional love is wonderful CC and I believe in each and every of us having the right to be individuals. If others love us it is for who we are not for who they want us to be.
I do not feel CC that you are wrong for loving your mother or wanting to comfort her when she needs comforting. I guess just because you offer someone unconditional love does not mean you are out to change who or what they are. You are simply stating you know who they are and despite everything you love them. I think actually that got me thinking about it and unconditional love is a great thing to have for your own sanity. If you couldn't offer unconditional love you would be working constantly to change everyone you love.
You know CC I think you are doing wonderful with your mother. You have set boundaries and by gosh you have given her unconditional love while you maintain your boundaries. I don't think neither you or your mother could ask for a better situation than that.
By forgiving your mother and moving on you are not condoning how she was to you, you are merely accepting it, dealing with it and moving past it. You have a baby coming and maybe it has got your mom a little nostalgic. She might be feeling a hell of alot of regrets. Some people are just not equipped to vocalize well.
Love is such a master of disguise. It presents in many different forms and it is up to each of us to recognize it from the people we know. My way of loving might not be the same way of your loving and your thoughts about loving others might not be the way your mothers thoughts are. As long as you hold those boundaries in place CC thats all that matters. While I was posting this to you I was listening to a CD. A song came on and it was as if it was written about surviving a childhood like ours. I will post it on another one so it wont be so long. Keep up the good work Cc. You are dealing in a manner that will allow YOU to move on emotionally.
Jaded
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These are the lyrics to Voice Within by Chrisitina Aguilera.
A voice within
Young girl, don't cry
I'll be right here when your world starts to fall
Young girl, it's all right
Your tears will dry, you'll soon be free to fly
When you're safe inside your room you tend to dream
Of a place where nothing's harder than it seems
No one ever wants or bothers to explain
Of the heartache life can bring and what it means
When there's no one else
Look inside yourself
Like your oldest friend
Just trust the voice within
Then you'll find the strength
That will guide your way
If you will learn to begin
To trust the voice within
Young girl, don't hide
You'll never change if you just run away
Young girl, just hold tight
And soon you're gonna see your brighter day
Now in a world where innocence is quickly claimed
It's so hard to stand your ground when you're so afraid
No one reaches out a hand for you to hold
When you're lost outside look inside to your soul
When there's no one else
Look inside yourself
Like your oldest friend
Just trust the voice within
Then you'll find the strength
That will guide your way
If you will learn to begin
To trust the voice within
Yeah...
Life is a journey
It can take you anywhere you choose to go
As long as you're learning
You'll find all you'll ever need to know
You'll make it
You'll make it
Just don't go forsaking yourself
No one can stop you
You know that I'm talking to you
When there's no one else
Look inside yourself
Like your oldest friend
Just trust the voice within
Then you'll find the strength
That will guide your way
If you will learn to begin
To trust the voice within
Young girl don't cry
I'll be right here when your world starts to fall
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Hi again, CC - Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I recognise the sincerity of your confusion. I think your perception of your mother as a small child is very accurate. She certainly sounds in a very vulnerable state. It's quite amazing how honest she is trying to be. A true 'N' just wouldn't have that much self-awareness.
You both sound as confused as each other about how to reach out and how to express love/need/'who you are' without getting hurt or rejected.
You know, one thing occurred to me as I've been reading your posts lately : you often tell your mother what you won't accept and you tell her what she gets wrong. Have you ever dared to risk asking for what you want? (Or do shame and pride get in the way?)
I know that I don't open up to my mother any more because she turns into a spiteful harridan (as others here have also discovered- it's a moment of power for some nParents) - but your mother seems to be seeking opportunities to meet you half way. And yes, she ALSO has her own needs in mind. But, hey, don't we all!!
When you shared your recent good news, it seemed as tho you were setting yourself up for rejection ("I know how you're going to react but I'll tell you anyway"). But, for example, if you know she's likely to be rejecting in a particular situation because of her own past, you could talk it through with her and share what you want and need and see if she's up for a new way of responding. She sounds as tho she'd like to find a different way but hasn't got the faintest idea how. There is a difference between wilfulness and ignorance - as a friend has recently taught me when recounting the tragedy of her own mother who was brought up in a care home.
Does your mother have any emotional support (counsellor, therapist, social worker, etc)? Could you arrange for any? This might be just the moment when it could be helpful for all of you. And might get her intensity off your back while you concentrate on what's within
I understand your concern for your baby. Some babies do seem to take on board everything that happens to the mother and feel responsible (I think I did), and some come out without a care in the world (as my son did). I distanced myself from my mother as much as possible when I was pregnant but found myself in a work situation dealing with someone even more manipulative and upsetting (she was a manic depressive and I discovered the concept of co-dependence during that time)!!!
It's healthy to feel the full gamut of emotions - I'm not so sure that there's a need to shield our babies from them - but you might want to investigate cranial osteopathy for both you AND your new born - both my son and I had sessions immediately after the birth. I know if made a huge impace on me.
I am truly confused here about compassion and kindness and protecting myself. I think I would feel better too if I comfort her a little, but why? because I feel guilty and I need to redeem myself, or because I truly feel like I want to be kind to her out of pity?
I came across a book recently that is for 'Women who Think too much" I think (sic!) that you might find it useful (me, too!).
Just go comfort her! And ask her to comfort you, too.
I've noticed a couple of times that you put the words kindness and pity together. It puzzles me. Perhaps you'd like to be kind to her 'just' because you recognise her pain? You both share the same kind of pain, having been hurt and damaged by parents (even if she's one of them)!
I think (and I'm taking a big breath here because this may be challenging to others - but I know that you and I have an implicit agreement to speak the truth!) that if you could avoid pity and feelings related to pity that you'd find your true feelings.
It's the moment when we put ourselves on an equal footing with the nParents in our lives that we can fully acknowledege the contribution we make to their pain and begin to really find the road to recovery.
I don't know how I can say that in all the circumstances, but I know it to be the truth. We must all struggle for humility if we are to beat this thing.
Take care, CC
Hugs
R
PS For anyone only just embarking on this journey, I'd add that we can only do that after we've discovered just how much pain and damage they've caused US - so don't anyone try to skip a stage!!! ;-)
PPS CC, you posted again (and so did Jaded) while I was still writing this last night (around midnight my time) - I'm glad you followed your heart. It's not a bad thing to respond to someone else's need for support - it only gets dangerous for us when we become codependent/addicted to fulfilling those needs. I'm still not out of that wood. I think you did great.
R
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Hello Ladies,
Jaded, thank you for your beautiful words. The lyrics you wrote from that song had me welled up with tears and I appreciate you taking the time to post it. I might add, I have seen you do a lot of hard work here lately, and your contributions are very helpful - I can see you doing your own work in your contributions which is so awesome.
Rosen, (good to have you back, by the way, I see you've been lurking again after a brief MIA) I thought I would address a few of your points.
Yes, I have made my expectations, or my needs clear to Nmom in addition to telling her what I will not accept - namely this: I expect to be treated with the same respect she would offer her friends - or any fellow human being whom she had not met before. I asked for her to stop trying to control and manipulate me, and to accept me entirely for who I am, even if she doesn't agree with what it is I stand for in a given circumstance. I asked her to allow for mine and my husband's and his family's differences and perhaps even try to appreciate and learn from them. I told her I did not want her to change who she was, and that if she could learn just to be herself that people would like her more. That when its when she tries too hard to impress or be someone that she really isn't that she hurts people or pushes them away. That when she is trying hard to change people or make them see her point of view, she is in effect pushing people away, which is the opposite of what she wants. She stated that she was in agreement with all of it.
Another interesting point you brought up is that of "teaching" her new ways of responding (like with the baby announcement). In theory, I agree with you. I had been doing this with some things along the way over the last year or so. But I have very mixed feelings about this. I wonder if this is a form of controlling. This is on the border of trying to "change" her, which is exactly what I don't want her to do to me. I realize that "our" way is the healthy way, but if we are still pointing out "you are doing this the wrong way, I need you to do it THIS way", are we not just reversing the concept of control onto our dysfunctional parent?
Additionally, in the past when I have tried this type of communication - she might agree or understand it at the time but is unable to really apply it when necessary - because she is truly unaware of when she is slipping into the manipulative behavior. Granted, after this latest confrontation, she may be more receptive. But I am exhausted - and almost feel like I shouldn't have to spend the time and energy to teach her how to be a human being. I feel that I have invested too much time and energy with her up until this point - I am looking for ways to lessen this, not add to it. At the risk of sounding like an annoying employee at work -"that's not my job" :?
She has been to counseling, several years ago when my father died, and just scratched the surface. She admitted - her therapist kept going back to her childhood, and she didn't want to go there. She said she didn't see how it was relavent to her current life (duh) but the reality is, it's too scary for her. She feels she got as far as she wanted. I brought it up again when we've been talking through this confrontation - I think she feels she is too old to dig up all the pain from 60 years ago, when she is only going to live another 10 or so. And, she truly doesn't see that it would clear all this up. She prefers to look at it as "I just need to change my behavior, that's all". So I guess that's fine too.
I told her she needs to widen her circle of support. She has agreed to it. I don't know how she will follow through, but that's not my problem. She has her AA group, but she has them all fooled with her N act too - she doesn't really "work" the program. She shows up, but tells me in private that she would "never" talk about some of the personal things that the others talk about in group. She considers herself superior to many of the people on the program because she is not a "rock-bottom" drunk or a multiple substance abuser. This is very consistent with her all-around unwillingness/incapability of truly communicating and being intimate with people.
So you see, even though my mother might not be the spiteful harridan yours is :twisted: , she still is unwilling to get to the heart of the matter. Her motivations, from what I can see, are to preserve her relationship with her precious daughter - not to find true happiness within herself. It is sad.
Please tell me about cranial osteopathy - I am interested. FYI, I see a massage therapist regularly for cranial/sacral massage, it is the same?
I laughed out loud with your recommendation of the book "women who think too much" just the title alone I can relate to. I've heard of this book before, I think I will check it out.
I think that if you could avoid pity and feelings related to pity that you'd find your true feelings.
I'm not sure how to approach this, but you definitely have my wheels turning, sister. I will be pondering this throughout the day. You are sooo perceptive. I can't even identify my true feelings with this - which is why I struggled with what to do yesterday. This is the N-legacy. I have not known what my true self is for so long, and I still don't know how to identify it. I just know what's wrong.
Well, that's enough for now. I've rambled on entirely too long. Thanks R, for your ever-insightful thought provoking responses.
good health to you.
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Hi CC,
I read your post with alot of interest as usual. I think all of us, sons and daughters of Ns, have such similar experiences.
I don't want to be the voice of " Get the Heck away from your N parents", I would never prescribe that as THE solution to the problem. They've scarred us because they've been scarred and so now we're all scarred together and on and on and on it goes! I was frustrated when reading your post to tell you the truth..not because of how you reacted and what went on but because since i've broken off all contact with my N family i've been able to rest.( apart from court!)
What I would prescribe is a rest period for yourself and your husband as well as "baby". How to go about that..that is the question. I'm angry at your mother because she chose "THE HOLIDAYS" to discover that she has been a " terrible mother"...I'm angry at the perpetual one-sidedness of all N arguments/actions/reactions/issues..Yes they are people too! But they continue to treat themselves as if they were more "PEOPLE" than others..and I find that so bloody frustrating!
Of course they, the N parents choose the most emotion filled times of the year to act something out..they always get their pseudo-epiphanies when it's most incovenient for everybody else. They are such hi-jackers.
Without question, your mother is suffering..and of course you want to help her because you have become or are naturally a warm and caring, albeit raised by an N, person..but perhaps you should resist..just this once to the temptation to afford her more attention than she realistically deserves. What I am saying has nothing whatsoever to do with revenge. These are the Holy days...let's keep them Holy! That's more the message i'm trying to convey. We cannot grab a hold of our own feelings and lives if we don't let go of the hold we have on the perpetrators/instigators of our present predicaments. This is not unkind , or uncaring..it's like cleaning up from the inside out.
I can't help thinking how violent it is of your mom, ( like my mom whose favourite time of the year to explode was Christmas btw) to choose this time of the year to drain her pregnant daughter just a little bit more.
I'm truly sorry you are going through this normally beautiful and significant time of year and indeed of your life an involuntary prisoner of your N mother's guilty feelings. I'm convinced it's all about her feeling better for the holidays or maybe worse, by attracting exagerrated attention to herself your mom might be out for a "fix" in order that she may give herself permission to endure yet another holiday season.
Oh CC, I feel for you, I really do, cut yourself some slack, YOU are allowed to have a wonderful Christmas season..the season of PEACE. Have a slice of Peace for yourself, unwrap a Peace present just for you, light a Peace flame in your fireplace just for YOU.
Blessings to you,
Nic.
PS// I'm not spending any part of Christmas with my family, by choice and for me..and don't any of you go thinking that was an easy decision to come to. Sometimes it's harder to leave your N family than to stay in it..I contemplated leaving mine a long time ago..but decided to stay on for twenty years, it got me strictly NOWHERE..BUT it permitted me to come to the best decision i've ever come to. I think my Nparents feel good about my decision too because they never have liked to look behind ( at themselves) Ns are always the ones saying: THAT WAS IN THE PAST< GET OVER IT!..Well, here's to the future!
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[Another interesting point you brought up is that of "teaching" her new ways of responding (like with the baby announcement). In theory, I agree with you. I had been doing this with some things along the way over the last year or so. But I have very mixed feelings about this. I wonder if this is a form of controlling. This is on the border of trying to "change" her, which is exactly what I don't want her to do to me. ]
In my view it is not controlling nor trying to change her to suit your unspoken needs. It's direct, honest limit-setting. If you don't do it, she will maintain the bad behavior. It is exhausting, it is aggravating. But I don't see any other choice if you want to have a relationship with her.
bunny
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Nic,
Thanks for taking the time to read my lengthy posts and respond. I was glad I read yours after a few days had passed - your words were very timely and spoke to me. I am taking your advice about peace (and getting some this season) to heart.
I am struggling with Christmas Eve a bit, we normally have my mother over for an hour or two with the in laws and then bring her home early - afterwards staying up late with my husbands' family. Then in the morning we go to mom's and open gifts and have brunch. I am considering just not having her over at all Christmas Eve - the problem is I already told her she would be invited so I don't know if I can pull it off.
I think you are wise to have made the decision to stay away from your parents during the holidays. I envy your capability of this. I know you respect that each of us choose different paths. Just curious - something to ponder: The fact that stands out for me when you talk about your separation - your parents have each other. I wonder if you would have been able to make the same decision was one of your parents gone and there were no other siblings or family around for the remaining parent? I am ever more aware that this is a big reason that I have not been able to disengage. Blessings to you Nic, I know you will have a peaceful holiday because of your choices. I will be thinking of your words when things seem like they are getting in the way of what's important .
Bunny, thanks for the frank advice. I always enjoy your input because it is brief and to the point! I think you are correct - as long as I choose to have ANY relationship with her, there is going to be work involved. That is the bitter reality.
It is always so interesting to me how each of you respond and different parts of people's experiences speak to each of us (it is evident in the ways you each respond).
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CC,
My mother is on her own too, and I'm an only child. For many years we've had her with us on alternate Christmasses, so at least we get one year in two off! The years she is at home she is usually a complete martyr. She could go to her sister but chooses to be alone, in order to punish me, presumably. This used to bother me but really, it's her choice.
This year I asked my son how he would like to spend Christmas and he replied, "I don't mind, as long as Granny doesn't come". You can see what a ray of sunshine she is in our lives!
If I may offer an opinion, I think you are doing very well in balancing your desire to be humane against your need to maintain your new boundaries. I am aware that I felt some anxiety reading about your recent contact with your mother though. I think this is my fear that, if it were me, there might be some sort of 'slippery slope' operating and I would graduallly get sucked back into the old patterns. Maybe this is just my stuff.
I so agree that what you most deserve this Christmas is peace. Your baby and partner deserve this too. I so hope you can achieve it.
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that last post was by me, nightsong - I've finally realised I have to log in to post as me. Sorry people!
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that last post was by me, nightsong - I've finally realised I have to log in to post as me. Sorry people!
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Hi CC,
Yeah I understand..you didn't need to ask me what I would do if only one of my parents was living though! *lol* Nonetheless, since you ask, my father is 81 years old, moneyed cheap and crooked..if he were left alone i wouldn't see him anyway..my mom is 77 and is an alcoholic..I have lived with her drunkenness and pill popping for eons now, if she was left alone i'd make sure she had adequate medical care and leave her in the care of her vulture family who have been wishing her dead for years anyway! Blunt enough for ya?
I came to the decision to leave my N parents after years of sustained and serial abuse perpetrated on me by them. It came after much therapy, it is the end of the sentence..the period as in full stop,the part of the book that reads THE END. I cannot at this time go into factual details concerning our court case but when I can you will be astonished at how conceited and selfish some people can be..you will more accept my decision and you will in no way be tempted to question and or ponder it further.
Suffice it to say that I spent an awful long part of my life and creativity actually parenting my parents..that is always wrong. It is true as stated in earlier posts, by Rosencrantz for example, that adults take care of themselves..my N parents needed me as food to survive. It is very clear now to me. The programming is gone and I am seldom unconscious of reverting to it when the thought of them enters my mind.
I understand their matrix completely.
Now, as far as other peoples' experiences and from reading almost everything posted here, only the names and places have been altered to protect the innocent as far as I'm concerned. There is a commonality, that is, a common denominator to the N nature, M/O of the N parent and that would be: extreme selfishness and self absorbtion to the point of negating the very life energy and veritable BEING of the children they generate or adopt. Despite them ( the N parents) having their own hangups and horrible pasts, the damage they generate and perpetuate transgenerationally must be stopped when a victim becomes aware of it. And I thank God everyday for the crap I've been through and am living through right now because I know for sure I will not be a producer of a new crop of Narcissists.
I also have discovered that Ns with age only become worse, i've experienced that personally..there seems to be no hope of them developing any sense of responsibility much less awareness and much much less caring and empathy. They constantly lay, consciously or by default , traps of caring and generosity for their source(s) of supply..an elaborate or simple disguise designed to maintain the status quo and the focus on themselves., as long as it involves them! In fact it seems to be a Christmas tradition for them..give give give..say I love you or whatever while everyone knows it's all over on the 26th if they haven't just simply ruined it again!
The ultimate protection is what i've done because it was vital that I do so..my self, my identity was disappearing.. I had to cut them out. BUT, some Ns are not as extreme as mine..and one can manoevre safely ( relatively) around them. Any guilt associated with not getting an inheritance for example, is ok and normal in my books. If you've lived with an N so long you're entitled to some compensation! ($)
But, and in my case..there wasn't going to be any money anyway and so I was free to make the ultimate move. Although it was difficult throughout the entire process, my inner voice kept telling me "go on Nic..it's all going to be ok..don't give in anymore you don't have to"..and of course my wonderful scottish wife who knows since forever that yes is yes and no is no has been a wonderful support, never giving in to my mom's berating of me and all her sabotage.
Don't apply other peoples' solutions to yourself..feel it out with your situation. I've also learned, ( like Rob i'm a christian!) that when you expect it the least God will jolt you out of your comfort zone and say Hey YOU! I gave you a life and I want to make it better and I can...and so I was jolted right out of my comfort zone and it has been a weird/wonderful/ terrible/scary/mind-boggling/twisting/topsey-turvey/cool and anything else you can think of two years.
Ok begining to ramble now..I should really write a book..perhaps I will.
I'm glad you're going to claim some peace..you claim it you own it!
Blessings as usual dear friend but most of all PEACE!
Love Nic.
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It is so very challenging - and complicated. I agree with the advice in the Nina Brown books - Get out and stay out. But, if we stay in, then how can we treat them with less respect than we require of them? If we use harsh words, what does that do?
It's my despair that I know that if I 'stay in' and also stop fighting and pushing (and using harsh words), there is no 'time out' because then my mother encroaches on my space and threatens my mind, my emotions, my equilibrium. The words no, stop, 'time out', just have no meaning for her so, as I know it's a choice between my well-being and hers, and I have resolved to say 'me first' (if only for the sake of my own family), I have no option but to remove myself from the threat.
I have started a million conversations with my mother in my head and I haven't found a single way through to a positive conclusion. Because she is elderly and is recently bereaved I don't want to use harsh words. My choice is to feel (slightly) guilty about 'abandoning' her rather than tipping her over the edge by fighting her. I write to her and she writes back the odd sentence, always recriminatory in tone. I keep in touch with Social Services and the Psychiatric team and make sure her finances are OK.
I'm not saying these are the right choices, just that these are the ones I've made. In fact, they are the only ones I can cope with.
CC, you say that you don't want her to change, but you desperately DO want her to change - you want her to act differently and be other than she is. Indeed, you want her to be herself!? What a fundamental life change. She has probably never been herself!
'Being yourself' is beyond the capacity of the N - they have too much shame. You are surviving the shame - she is overwhelmed by it. That's what made her an 'N'. Shame is too hard to experience, it's too fundamental, without a huge amount of support. Their age is against them - they more than any of us are becoming aware of their mortality - and they don't have the ability to trust anyone to provide the kind of rock solid support needed. (When I mentioned support for her, I meant people around her, rather than therapy for change.)
And your needs, CC - you wanted her to meet your need to be congratulated and admired for your new status, for it to be important and worth celebrating. Nothing wrong with the need - something wrong with choosing this particular person (even if she does happen to be your mother). She won't/can't do it.
If you 'stay in', can you stop yourself wanting her to meet your needs? You say that you 'stay in' because of guilt so I assume you seek to meet her needs by staying in - and yet you get angry because she acts in a needy manner and doesn't try to meet your needs. Are you there to meet her needs - or for her to meet your needs? It's all jumbled up. You don't want to have to meet her needs, she can't meet yours. If you know it consciously, there's a part of you that doesn't know it. Abandon hope and you might just manage the relationship you hope for.
I wonder if you're thinking that, as she's your mother, she 'should' meet your needs and you 'shouldn't have to' meet hers? I remember reading how damaging the word 'should' is. The best we can hope for in life is to express a preference and a hope rather than an expectation or a demand. If we can live with the former then we get less stressed; wanting the latter just leaves us feeling angry.
I'd prefer it if you ...(rather than 'I expect you to...) Somehow there's more freedom in a preference - and it's less exhausting.
You sound as tho you are exhausting yourself with trying to control her behaviour. I don't think I meant 'teach her' how to behave but rather teach her about you and what your needs are and some of the ways in which she could meet them. There's a difference between telling a person how to act and telling them what your needs are.
"Mum, I've got some really great news and I really want you to be pleased for me. Do you think you can do that for me? Is it a good day for you today?"
I can't see my mother responding to that! But if she can't respond to that then I know not to share the news or I know not to have any expectations when I do share the news.
We want them to accept us as we are - but it's just as huge a leap for us to be able to accept them for what they are and let go of wanting them to be different. The day I accepted my mother's 'difference' (or at least one part of it) and was able to 'let go', my life turned around. Writing this post, reminds me that I've been resting on my laurels and I have more work to do. Accepting my mother's need to undermine me and be spiteful is next on my list. :( The important thing is not to take it personally!!
R
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Just as I can intuit that an event, a relationship, a moment or a circumstance has changed or is over in my day to day life I have come to realize that the same holds true for the experience I have had with two Narcissistic parents.
There is that inner knowing that my relationship with them is done. As I look back over my lifetime, I clearly see how both my parents and indeed the family dynamic have never changed. I changed. My destiny is no longer connected with that unit. I'm not a monster who suddenly decided that because I wasn't getting my way I was hitting the highway. My father has made some comments to that effect..after all that has happened and because of their inability to let me go Papa said to me one day, " You're just upset because I don't pay ALL your bills anymore!"
It was at that time I realized that in his mind I was the little boy, the little responsibility he had been lugging around for now forty years. How sad! I thought right then and there, OMG there it is again, another projection. I had just finished reading the article recommended on this board entitled And now we are six. It struck me hard that my N parents were 6 and sometimes 10 years old..it all fit.
But what do you do? I thought, that means I WAS the grown-up when I reached 7 and 11 years of age. My life flashed before me and I saw in my mind's eye the many times I had taken over certain situations, where I had been the leader, where I had been the parent.
And now at forty years of age to have it all tossed back at me in an immense reprimand for not having stuck to the tacit unspoken agreement of so many years ago, was greater than I thought I could withstand. I don't know how I made it without going completely bonkers. I realized then that I hadn't been living my life at all..but whose life was I living? Not mine I concluded..WORSE..my parents were living their life through me..I was an immense doormat right smack in the middle of a high traffic area. Like that throw rug immediately at the door, you know, the one that gets trampled on and dirty for about 4 feet until it begins to get cleaner. The clean part is never clearly visible from the door and along those 4 feet, it has to be discovered as you make your way further into the house. And then it fades and becomes something else..it blends into and with the rest of the decor. And when you've been all through the house for the first time without an invitation but rather because you've determined to see and seek what lies beyond the four feet of dirt, you can return to the entrance doorway and see that there was more to the house then what you thought was there.
Now what did it take to go beyond the dirty rug? Courage, curiosity, willpower, daring, a calling certainly..but more importantly and such is my life, an invitation. An invitation to go further, to explore, an interest in changing the scenery,and a search for freedom.
I've used the metaphore of the house as my life in my thoughts. In my own house i was confined to that dirty 4 foot long high traffic area rug. I was that rug. My nmom and Ndad's horrible comments and actions toward me over the years pushed me over the edge. Their cruelty, their Narcissism became so repulsive and repressive that it propelled me into my OWN life. The oppression was strangling me, there was no more air and in order to survive I saw no other alternative but to jump into my own space.
It has been painful at times..many times. Especially when you look around you and everyone else seems so happy. Are they just going through the motions? I became judgemental of other people's happiness as I was jealously pursuing my own. What a way to live! An exhausting way. I had considered everything: when I was younger thoughts of suicided used to soothe another blow from the Ns. Sometimes it was a good time with friends. I drank with them and smoked pot, even tried Cocaine once or twice..but never to any extreme..I kept myself sober to deal with the everyday assaults with a "clear head" I used to think..hmmph! I was never NEVER out of control with anything..I was not too happy, not too sad, not too suicidal, not too responsible, not too independent, not too guarded, not too euphoric, not to dramatic etc etc.
I wished I could be more of some things like more loving, more tolerant of my friends, more carefree..but my parents had trained me so well not to be too anything that I was there..just existing and very pliable..my survival ,especially my emotional survival, depended on that. I was the middle-man, everything went through me whether good or bad, I was the filter, that was my role. Always living on the edge..not of something exciting but on the edge of disaster. I wasn't allowed to live, i was adopted to serve.
When I realized that for REAL a year and a half ago, there was an explosion in my soul. I guess God was ready to change me because I was ready to change. I think that's what they mean when they say God is a patient God. I feel he waited for me ..how nice of Him. God is a gentleman.
I dared go past the dirty rug, I allowed myself to go deeper into my own life and indeed to start living it. I married the most unlikely person you could ever think of for me. An older Scottish woman sent from God to be there for me and with me during my transformation. It's amazing how much i've changed in the past eight years of my marriage. It's nothing short of miraculous I was ever married too! I was very solitary, and had never really thought this would happen to me, how could it? But it did. And, it was time.
No wonder my N mother exploded one day and screamed at me ( in french 'cos i'm french-speaking) " You've never been the same since you married that woman"..she also said that one day my wife called her a bitch..yep! Actually she didn't to her face but you know how Ns are...I had the courage now to face the raging torrent ( my mom always appears as a dark raging torrent of water or a whirlwind..in any case it's always black and spinning!) and answer her: Well mom, you are! And strangely enough, those words were the last I've spoken to her since around this time last year..Oi!
When it's going to change it will, it must. When you hear your soul screaming at you that you're dying to live, leave everything behind and answer it " I'm coming!" That's what I did. Something wasn't allowing me to go on living the way I was. I had no choice, I had to leave my Nparents, they were killing me.
That's clear in my mind and I only regret that there is nothing I could have said then or now really to make them understand. They just can't. And so they rage and drag me to court because I've broken my shackles and run off to live MY LIFE. It was bound to happen, thank God it did.
blessings Nic.
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The oppression was strangling me, there was no more air and in order to survive I saw no other alternative but to jump into my own space.
You're right Nic, that's what saves us!!! That's why I cut off from my parents after I moved away to go on to further education at the age of 19. I'm not quite sure of all the details of our continued contact now. I know they came to my university graduation - and made a thorough misery of it, I know I must have returned home on a couple of occasions, but I know I stopped going home for Christmas very early on. Fortunately I found a part-time job which required me to work over Christmas!! (I was always looking for valid excuses not to return and never went to family 'events'.)
Did they always phone me or did I used to call them - I don't remember. I was too involved in trying to survive living in the world - I had no idea that they were causing most of the misery I felt. I was clearly an expert at denial!!!
I could not have survived even a year longer in their presence. But it's now 30 years on, and I'm too worn out to fight any more. I hear my mother's pain. I find it incredible that she has experienced so much bewilderment and pain - and never recognised her own contribution to the situation - the constant retribution, complaints, spite, and attempts to control - she hurts so much and there's nothing I can do to reach her without getting damaged myself.
I struggle to do things for her at a distance. Every time I do something I say 'I know she won't appreciate it but never mind, I'll do it anyway', 'I know she'll find fault, but never mind', then sometimes 'I know she'll turn it all on its head and make it into the worst possible thing that could ever happen, so perhaps I'd better not'. What a lot of nervous energy goes into every single day.
I think I'll phone her - I get very close to doing so - but, if it all goes wrong, I know my husband won't be hugely supportive any more. I guess he'll support me still but he's adamant I shouldn't have any more contact with her. He says that whatever the reasons, I should just look on it all as an allergic reaction. I'm allergic to my mother. <wry smile>
Today was my son's tenth birthday. It is exactly a year ago since all this started to come out from behind the veil of denial. My mother ruined my son's birthday - from jealousy and fear and with spite. And I finally started to ask 'why' - I sobbed and sobbed and sobbed - and I began to realise that the word 'bully' fitted what she did to me.
And here I am today - still wondering, if I am my mother's daughter, am I the same or different.
What a terrible, terrible year (for which I am sadly grateful).
R
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Nightsong,
Thanks for your post... I don't remember coming across your voice at this website before, it is nice to hear from you.
When you mentioned feeling anxiety after reading about my contact with my mother recently I think you were right on in feeling the "slippery slope". It may have been your stuff, but it is my stuff too - that's exactly how I felt when I was vascillating about going over to her house to "make it right". I was battling my own needs vs. her needs - and truly, in the fashion of codependency having trouble identifying which is which..
How perceptive of your son to feel what he feels and acknowledge it as uncomfortable about his grandmother. You must be doing a wonderful job of teaching him, or setting an example of, expressing himself. If only we had that insight when we were children :wink:
Nic,
Wow, you have really been doing some work this weekend! I was glad that you clarified some of the details of your own parents. It makes it easier for us to compare experiences. We have all been here a while, and sometimes each other's pasts get overlapped in my head even though I had read this about you before. But the info you shared brought me back again to the discussion we have had here at this board before about "degree" of narcissism and dysfunction that we have each been exposed to. While I know each of our own pain is all relative (no pun intended :D ) it becomes easier to understand why each of us are at the different points of healing that we are when we know the history of how we got there.
I felt terrible that you were under the impression that I was questioning your decision to cut off your parents. This is not the case at all, and you certainly do not have to justify yourself to me or anyone else! (We did enough of that growing up!) My question about whether or not you would have made the same decision if your only one of your parents was alive was PURELY out of my own desire for you to see MY perspective (I'm afraid I was being narcissistic, please forgive me!) It was in no way intended to make you feel as if you had not done the right thing, and I sincerely apologize if it came across that way. I am certain, especially after the brief history you reminded me of - that you made the right choice for YOU and your happiness.
While I hear and see the wisdom in your healing and your experience sharing, I feel the pain as well. It reminds me that regardless of where any of us are in this journey, it seems no less painful at any point. I remember a while ago (I'm pretty sure it was you?) you were out fishing and were thinking "am I ever going to stop thinking about this stuff?" Sorry if I have you confused with someone else. I feel that frustration too though.
Something you said has been ringing in my ears since yesterday when I originally read your post:
adults take care of themselves..my N parents needed me as food to survive
This is the feeling that has been apparent to me for the last couple of years with my Nmother. In fact, she has made it all too clear. In the midst of this recent confrontation for example: she said, "I love you more than life itself". Though she may have intended it as such, I did not feel love from that statement - instead I felt guilt and obligation. And on top of that, I felt guilty for thinking that it made me feel guilty and obligated instead of loved! How's that for a double whammy.
You also reminded me, though indirectly perhaps, that to obtain peace
I need to involve my higher power more. Admittedly, I "forget" sometimes that I do not have to deal with this "alone". I can give some to God to take care of. I will be giving this some more conscious attention this holiday season.
Lastly, Nic, for that matter, I am not so sure I am making the right choice for me anyway :oops: I am still working that out.
P.S., I never knew you were french-speaking. My husband is a native of France. Your English is impeccable and you are so articulate I never would have known. My husband's French mother is an N also but not nearly as intense (degree) as mine.
Rosencrantz
I am so sorry to hear about your son's birthday. I'm sure whatever you did and the love you gave him more than made up for whatever "she" did. I know its hurting you terribly. So often R, you come here with strength and wise words. But I still hear the pain from you, many hugs and lots of comfort. Next year will be a better year - you have grown soooo much.
And congratulations on your part-time job - this is HUGE, I know you have been pondering for a long time "getting back out there" I envy you. This is a milestone of your growth this year. I was strongly thinking about it too but now I have this excuse (pregnancy) ha!
Just want to clarify - I DO want my mother to change, I just don't feel that I can be the one to change her. She has to change herself, and I don't think she's capable of that without someone pointing her in the direction. Therefore I accept the way she is, because I am not going to spend my energy trying to "point the way".
Once again, you dare to tread where others won't but you are almost always right. You are perceptive in seeing that the desire to "fullfill" my mother's needs is somewhat my own attempts to get my own needs met. I have discussed this in the past with my therapist. It is the sick, twisted entwinement of codependency. The truth is, I have yet to truly understand what my own needs are, which is why I struggle with the distance from my mom. I have been entwined with her unhealthily for so long, I am unable to identify my own needs. Yes, I am exhausting myself with trying to control her behavior, to a degree. "Abandon hope" is what you recommended. It sounds so final, but perhaps it needs to be considered. I have already accepted who she is, perhaps I need to stop "hoping" for better. On the other hand, when you spoke about stating a preference, you mentioned "hoping". Its hard for any of us to let go of that hope, isn't it? :lol:
You mentioned in a another post recently something to the effect that once you stop feeling compassion or the opposite (anger was it?) that you have reached the healing point (neutral). This comment made me feel optimistic, because when I "gave in" and went over to my mother's to "make things right", I felt neutral while she was crying and carrying on. I comforted her by being there, but I did not feel guilty, compassionate, or angry. I still felt I had done the right thing even though she was so upset. This for me, is a step in the right direction because a year ago I would have been much more emotionally invested in the immediate circumstances.
Once I can figure out exactly what my needs are, I will try and communicate them to her. For now, what I've asked her for is common decency and respect for her fellow human being, for me and my family. That's about the best I can identify for her right now.
Thanks again all for working through this with me. I know I should try and feel peaceful during the holidays, but I would be lying if I said I won't be glad when they're over. Even though some growth has taken place, I am still uncomfortable with the changes I have brought forth with Nmother - and I know there will be some tension in testing out the new status over Christmas.
God Bless
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Crap, that was me above, got booted out and thought I was logged on... CC
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CC said: I do want to mention that while its possible she is not being sincere, she has been owning up to it and taking responsibility for the most part. She has said the words, "I know, I caused you great pain and I will never do anything like this again. I just never knew how you felt". Part of me I'm sure is denying the reality of her sincerity, and you see right through that. On the other hand, there are always varying degrees of this disorder depending on the individual, and this is the part that I struggle with sometimes (Just how sick is she?)
CC: If you go back and think about the varied experiences with your mother, one very telling, of which you had shared in the "tickets to N theatre" message, you will know deep down, just how sick she is. It might be easier for an outsider to see it, without question. Same would go for me/anyone questioning our experience with N.
I wanted to kindly remind you that N's say so many things but as much as they might mean what they say in that moment, the Nism disorder, by its very nature, prevents them from sticking to them. If they have a life long, emotional/psychological disorder, how can they not act the same as they always have? All it will take is an appropriate trigger.
In theory (not a practical/physiology comparison) it is kind of like when an Alzheimer patient has moments of clarity and recognition. It is wonderful, but it doesn't last. The disorder has not been cured, and prior manifestations of it return in full force.
It is great, and can even be somewhat healing when they acknowledge the pain they've caused and apologize. On the other hand, I think we are self protected most when we take the words, cherish them for what they are but also realize that, if they are narcissistic, the N behavior has to return in full force.
What your mother has said can be very healing for you, as it tells you that if she could, she would have chosen to have been very different with you, and also that she feels sorry she can't be different.
Take that healing, embrace it, and at the same time, keep your appropriate emotional distance and new boundaries you have set.
What she has said changes nothing outwardly, but it can help you to find some inner peace, and heal.
Take Care
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LOL - the part-time job was when I was a student some 30 years ago - I think you were remembering posts by Echo about wanting to find a job (the 'five cents' post). These days my excuse to keep away is the needs of 'my family' and the distance that separates us (the journey would be 'too difficult for her'!).
No, having experienced N's in the workplace, I will never again risk finding myself at their mercy again - but I've been working on my own business for a number of years - I soon discovered I had to work on my own personal development in that context if I wanted to succeed. You just can't be the self-sacrificing goody two-shoes some of us learnt to be to appease our parents AND succeed in business!! I haven't found ways to stop being self-sacrificing but I have found ways round it. I put huge efforts into supporting other people and helping them to succeed in a commercial context - I'm currently experiencing glorious success and earning a glorious living with an even more glorious future ahead!
It's a shame that, having expressed such glorious feelings, I'm now cowering in fright at the payback I anticipate for having so dared. I recognise the legacy of my nMother but still can't escape it!
As far as needs are concerned, surely all the pain is because we still want the parenting, the mothering, we never got. We're still wanting it, still angry we didn't get it, still wanting payback, still wanting love and compassion and empathy for OURSELVES! I know that 'all' I want is for my mother to acknowledge me (hah!), to appreciate my efforts, to say I 'done well', to recognise that I have a good heart and a kind soul...
...so that I can just plain REST, so I can stop striving to do stuff, to be perfect, to please (her), to get everything right, to be right, to look after the whole bloody world in an attempt to get one smidgeon of her acceptance as a decent, kind human being.
I groan at myself for simply being unable to emotionally process what my mind sees so well.
But I also remember the amount of shame I had to experience before I could acknowledge the need. And I'm not sure I'll ever choose to express to her the need since I've already discovered to my cost how spiteful she will be if she spots a chink in my armour. And these days I have so many chinks in my armour - a positive sign in general but lethal if you have to deal with an N!!!
And, yes, CC - you did real well with your mother when you went to see her. Indifference wins. Congrats!!!
TTFN
R
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Going to spend an hour or two shopping with mother today to "break the ice" before the Christmas holiday. I feel peaceful about it. I feel detached, that it will be different today. The challenge now and in the future is to restrain myself from offering too much personal information.. I think if I can manage that I will be home free. I'll let you all know how it goes (maybe you're sick of hearing about it, but it helps me to verbalize it all here even if no one is listening!)
Sorry Rosen, not paying well enough attention . You are right, I was confusing you with Echo in her pursuit of a new career. :oops:
P.S. I was wondering what you all thought of this idea. I am considering buying my mother a book for Christmas that be about what it means to be a good, supportive person in someone's life. I'm not sure what book yet, but definitely not about Narcissism - she would feel attacked or whatever, and then I would be "trying to change her". (I already had sent her an article about that months ago and she said something like "this doesn't apply to me" ha!
I know I won't be able to change her. However, I believe she would be open to reading something that would help our relationship as long as it wasn't something like I was pointing out her wrongs and attacking her. Since she is particularly feeling vulnerable right now, perhaps it would be helpful, even if temporary. It would be more objective, like some book that would point out what it means to be a good friend or something. She might not even apply it, but for my benefit in the long run and I don't see how it can hurt. Any thoughts? If I am being too hopeful and unrealistic feel free to slap me into my senses, it was just an idea. has anyone tried this, or would they?
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Hi CC:
I know that if I were to give my mother any kind of book that even hinted at self improvement of any kind, it would definitely be perceived as a spiteful personal attack, and me trying to “get” her, no matter how kind my intentions were. I would never do it for that reason. Having said that, I don’t know how your mother would react. I would guess that the really important thing here is not whether you do it or not, but how attached you are to her reaction. If she approves, great. If she doesn’t and instead gets defensive, counterattacks or punishes you, are you OK with that? Can you laugh it off and say to yourself Hmmm, Sure enough…Interesting…Just as I thought…Are you to the point yet where she can say hurtful things to you and you can know they are not true? Where she can try to sound vicious and cruel and you can say Ahhh – yep there she goes again, Oh well, I threw it out there. What is your true motivation in giving her the book? Is it to make her “see?” What is your need to fix her? What is your need to make her see? (Simon sounding like a therapist here). Do you believe you can make her see? I am full of rhetorical questions with no answers here!
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CC,
Any book that hints at self-help, no matter what its stated topic, will evoke a negative response. I wouldn't recommend it, unless you want to see her go off the deep end again.
bunny
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ha ha Simon, I like your rhetorical questions! :D Actually, my intent for the book was not necessarily to "make her see", it was more, to SHUT HER UP. To teach her how to let me alone, and just not tell me how to feel, what to be and what choices to make. To accept the choices I have made in life without a peep. To not criticize me or the people I choose to be close to in my life (other than her). I was hoping not to change her, (not because I wouldn't want to, but I know I can't) because she will always have the sick thoughts and twisted critical logic - but rather to learn to shut up and not share her sick thoughts with me because they are hurtful.
I know already she will never see what a narcissist is, or what borderline personality disorder is, and how it applies to her. So the magic boook I had in mind would be one that simply told how to be a quiet, supportive bystander in the life of someone you love. But I think you are right, I am fooling myself. Perhaps Bunny is right on, any book is going to be perceived as a negative, regardless of my intentions.
And Simon, you are right again..Even though I am sort of sure she wouldn't be angry with me for giving her a book, the possibility that she might react hurtfully is not something I am prepared for. I see how I am putting myself in danger. And after spending time with her yesterday, I feel even more sure that I am not yet neutral enough to handle her antics.
We went to a few stores yesterday for Christmas shopping and I could feel myself slipping into old habits with her already. Against my plans I found myself going on and on telling her all sorts of personal information about my husbands' ex wife and her 2nd husband, and how my stepdaughter gets along at her house, etc. This is exactly the kind of conversations that later come back to haunt me somehow, and cause her to form negative opinions of my stepdaughter, my husband, or whatever. Even as I was speaking the words to her, I immediately regretted it, WHAT WAS I THINKING?
I have been so "close" with my mother for so long (I use the term "close" loosely because what it really is is unhealthy entwinement on my part) that I have trouble stopping myself from sharing this information. I also noticed yesterday that some of it is actually NERVOUS CHATTER, that I am filling what would probably be uncomfortable silences with valuable conversation to prevent myself from boredom or irritation, or hearing her negative comments about others!!! I guess I have always done this, and never realized how much it might be setting myself up.
Just to give you an example of her day to day grandiosity, negativity and prejudice: My mom and I were getting into the car to leave a store in a parking lot, and the lady in the car parked next to us was picking her nose, I mean, really digging and getting into it. :lol: The nose-picker lady was completely aware that we were next to her and looked at her, and she just didn't care, she just continued picking in earnest. I mentioned my amusement with this lady to my Nmom, saying how funny it was that she just didn't care if we saw her do this, and my mother was absolutely horrified, replying "OH, its absolutely disgusting, and its because she's a foreigner (she looked of latino descent). Those foreigners are ignorant, low class and have no manners whatsoever!"
This is the kind of comments that make me cringe inside. Granted, this was definitely bad manners. I wish I could tell you that I am completely free of prejudices and generalizations, but I would be lying - and I think as human beings we all have biases based on our personal life experiences whether we admit them or not. However, I try to give each person a fair shot, particularly if I've never met them; but that's not what this was really about. More importantly, it was the inablity for her to see the humor in the situation - it was about her need to feel superior to another human being.
In the past I have said things such as "I really would appreciate it if you wouldn't make generalized comments such as that as I find it offensive", or , sometimes even trying to get her to realize her prejudices - saying "I've seen all walks of life pick their nose in the same fashion, and don't think it has anything to do with nationality" :lol: . But I have done this so many times it is truly fruitless. So I choose to ignore it, and usually change the subject.
I communicate with intimately my husband and close friends, and even here. I am very open. It is extremely difficult for me to shut up. I don't even know how to, it is against my entire personality. I am not interested in superficial relationships with other people, but this is how it has to be with mother, and I don't know how to go about it. It is truly an excercise in self control.
thank you for talking me out getting a book for her, I know I'm not willing to suffer the reprocussions, and it is just probably not a good idea.
CC
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Hi CC and All,
You all are truly amazing - this board is such a help. CC, you are doing so great.
I remember seeing this poem a few years ago and it made quite an impact on me - before I even knew about N's:
Children
by Kahlil Gibran
Your children are not your children:
They are the sons and daughters of life's longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you,
And though they are with you yet they belong not to you.
You may give them your love but not your thoughts,
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
You may strive to be like them, but seek not to make them like you.
For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.
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In my naivety (before I realised the true nature of her personality) I gave my mother a book about boundaries. I'm pretty sure she never read it! Why should she! It would be attempting to recognise somebody else's perspective; and it's something I feel is important so she'd attempt to 'hurt' by ignoring it. I guess a book about 'mothers and daughters' would have the same effect. And, anyway, she'd completely miss the point and pick on things to reinforce her own perspective!! So it's probably just not worth it!!
I wonder if there are any videos of films which show this kind of relationship in action. I think it's easier to draw out over time the different threads of the message you want to get across using film (assuming she has a video player). The problem is they probably won't see 'your' point of view in the film, either!!
I wonder who she'd identify with in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, for example. ;-) There's a film by Ken Loach called Family Life which is painful to watch but I don't suppose it's available on video...oh dear - I've just checked and it IS still available. You'd need a strong stomach for that one. When I was 19 and struggling with all this, my therapist suggested I see this film. I didn't find it for a couple of years and I didn't understand it when I saw it but I DID react very strongly to it. I think it's something I need to revisit. Shiver!
CC, I know exactly what you mean about the 'nervous chatter' - but it's what 'they' do to 'us' and I really don't think there's any way of avoiding it unless we want an even more unpleasant and debilitating experience!!! If we 'do' the nervous chatter, it somehow saves them having to suffer their anxiety. I can't explain it any better than that - but it means that your 'nervous chatter' has a positive benefit for you at the time - even tho she uses it 'against' you later!!! (Another reason why I agree with the 'get out and stay out' idea because there just are no solutions - it seems - to some of these challenges.)
I may get to bed before midnight tonight (!) so I'll leave it there.
TTFN
R
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