Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Cadbury on October 25, 2005, 03:29:56 PM
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This is a different topic to my other post, so I started a new thread.
My ex has asked to see my son this coming Saturday. After refusing the contact centre for four months he has now suddenly said he would like to see him. I only have 3 days to prepare myself and I cannot stop shaking.
He has only seen our son for 3 1/2 hours since he was born and every time I have hated seeing him touch him. I can't talk to other people about this as they don't understand NPD. They all think that I should make a huge effort for the sake of my son. They don't understand that my ex is not normal. He doesn't react how any normal person would to anything. Even when he does the most God awful things he expects them to be forgotten as they didn't mean anything to him.
He went to the police after the first court hearing didn't go his way. He told them that I had been seriously abused by my father as a child and he was worried that the abuse would continue to my children. He told them he had seen my father abuse me recently. He told them that I couldn't have sex unless he pretended to rape me and that I would call him Daddy afterwards. This was his proof that his concerns were genuine. None of it was true!! Then he expects me, after I had to be interrogated by the police on these accusations, to get over it as he only did it because he was hurting.
He doesn't care about our son, he does everything as a power trip. The only present he has bought him was a stuffed bear that he recorded his own voice in.
What am I going to do? Why is it that this shi@@y excuse for a sperm donor gets so many rights when he deserves none? I have no qualms about the rights of genuine fathers, but he is bad through and through. I just want to take my son far away and never let him see him.Oh God, I feel awful... why do I have to go through this for the rest of my life? One mistake (meeting my ex) and I have to put up with him forever. I just want to keep my son safe.
Sorry, but I have no one to share this with who will understand.... :(
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I'm so sorry, Cadbury :( :(. I'm sure this must be very painful and scary for you. I really don't have any practical advice for you as I don't know how the courts and custody works across the pond, but know that I keep you and your baby boy in my prayers and hope you can keep him away from the sh*%%y sperm donor.
Hugs,
Brigid
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Hi Cadbury,
I don't really have any advice but wanted to let you know I'm out here reading your posts and wishing you the best. Can you have a trusted friend along when X comes over? just a thought. maybe there's no one you want to put that through...can you hire a big burly bodyguard??
I know how it is to want to protect your children. My SIL is pretty scary. Like the ghost librarian in Ghostbusters who turns into a huge banshee when p!ssed off. :shock: I don't see her anymore and when I did, I wouldn't leave my children alone with her. But I had a little more control because they were mine, not hers (although she didn't think so...I tell you, she's out there!). I'm still amazed that people listen to her when she spews her venom.
Enough about me. Just please brainstorm all the ways to cope that you possibly can. (Geez, I'm just not very helpful today. I'm sorry! :oops:) Chin up Cadbury. We're with you. MP
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Dear Cadbury,
I don't know what a Contact Center is but it sounds like a place where you needn't fear for your safety. I hope that's so. I don't have any practical notions either but the one thing that crosses my mind is that I remember reading somewhere about Ns that if you basically underreact and nearly ignore them, they soon lose interest. I can imagine it's terribly hard to disguise your distress, but maybe if you can aim for a very calm facade and try not to let him detect your feelings, he'll tire of the game.
I sure hope so. Meanwhile, every possible nourishing/shielding thing to you and your son... Small comfort for now, I am sure, but I will hold you in my thoughts.
Hopalong
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Hi Cadbury,
We all make mistakes and have to face the consequences. And sometimes those consequences can be pretty tough around an N.
But just look at all the women here who have raised great kids despite having an N mixed up in their lives.
You can get through anything for your little guy and you'll be stronger because of it.
I'll keep praying his 'father' finds something else to divert his attention and leaves you two alone.
Maybe he'll meet a rabid dog on the way over to see you. :twisted:
Of course if a rabid dog bit him the dog would probably croak. :roll:
You'll be OK. You're stronger than him, way stronger.
mud
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The only present he has bought him was a stuffed bear that he recorded his own voice in.
OMG, what an N!!!!!!
Cadbury, so sorry at what he put you through. Police incident sounds so humiliating and hurtful. Of course we understand that you don't want the sperm donor to be around your son, for he is simply using the child for his own gratification. Its a good thing you left him before the baby was born. I hope that you get sole full custody of the child.
Love, Marta
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This is a different topic to my other post, so I started a new thread.
My ex has asked to see my son this coming Saturday. After refusing the contact centre for four months he has now suddenly said he would like to see him. I only have 3 days to prepare myself and I cannot stop shaking.
Sorry if this sounds too simplistic, but why not say no? Tell him that you already have plans for this weekend, and that if he wants to see your son he has to give you two weeks notice, preferably in writing.
That is only fair, because you deserve to be able to plan your life, and not drop everything just because he decides on a whim that actually he has nothing better to do this weekend, so he might as well see the baby.
Forget what anyone tells you about the 'shoulds' of fathers and sons. Follow your instincts. It looks to me as if they are telling you loud and clear that this is not right. So don't do it. :)
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Well, contact will be happening on Saturday at 1pm. I am scared, but I know it will have to happen sooner or later so best get it over with.
October : the contact was ordained by a judge in July. I have been on Standby on a Saturday afternoon ever since. This is just the first time he has taken it up. It is crappy, but what can I do? I wish I could say no, that is what all my instincts want to do, but I can't. :( Thank you for the idea though :)
Marta, Mudpuppy, Hopalong,Miss Piggy and Brigid : I haven't got time for a "proper" response to each of you ( I hate not doing that, it seems rude) so I wanted to thank you for your support, it helps so much. I will reply in more detail as soon as I can.
In the mean time, do any of you have any suggestions on how best to cope with him? At the moment I am leaning towards distant politeness to keep him happy enough that he doesn't get angry, but also may encourage him to lose interest faster? What do you think?
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I think your instincts are excellent. Distant politeness sounds perfect.
Good luck with the visit. I think without the "negative attention" of your visible distress, he'll get less out of the visit than he's hoping. Distant politeness is really, really unpleasant for Narcissists.
You're a tiger.
Hopalong
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For me this is interesting to read as I'm assuming my Mum went through the same things. She wouldn't have him in the house and refused to talk to him unless she absolutely had to. Dad got access one Saturday a fortnight but he made sure he came every saturday, never on time, and probably because he caused more distress for everyone concerned. He did think he had "rights" to me though, however he didn't want to do anything to back it up, if that makes any sense.
My advice would be to get your boundaries clear in your head. Get the time clear how long you want him to be there, say half an hour to an hour, then arrange something with a friend. Tell him this beforehand so he knows how much time he has, then if he's late it's his problem, whatever blame he tries to put on you. Make your boundaries and keep them.
I wish you all the best hon.... big hugs... H&H xx
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Dear Cadbury:
Hang on tight to your dignity. Hold your head up and go in there knowing that he is simply manipulating (or trying to) to look "good" (for the court). Saturday will be over soon.
I will pray that the judge has common sense enough to ask himself why this "father" hasn't bothered to take advantage of visiting his child before now??? and to recognize how "bad through and through" he really is.
The court must be paying some attention or they would not have ordered the "contact centre" visits. No doubt he will come up with excuses but they will only go so far for any sensible, mindful judge. After that.......his real colours will be obvious and his rights will be limited or terminated (without the need of rabid dogs :D).
Sela
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Well, contact will be happening on Saturday at 1pm. I am scared, but I know it will have to happen sooner or later so best get it over with.
October : the contact was ordained by a judge in July. I have been on Standby on a Saturday afternoon ever since. This is just the first time he has taken it up. It is crappy, but what can I do? I wish I could say no, that is what all my instincts want to do, but I can't. :( Thank you for the idea though :)
I support your decision fully, of course. Just make sure you don't get steamrollered like this too many times. It is not good. He is pulling your strings. I would try to establish some boundaries to this kind of thing. You cannot possibly sit each week wondering whether or not he is going to turn up. Perhaps you could ask the judge about the 2 weeks notice thing, given how many times you have been let down?
I am taking my daughter to see her father on Saturday too (yes, he is still alive). :( Too drained to write too much about it, but I will be thinking of you.
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Cadbury
So sorry to hear your pain.
I have found that it's best for all involved to act as phony as the N when placed in close proximity.
The visit will be over before you know it.
You're a good Mom and I have faith that your child will be fine.
Best wishes.
Mia
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Cadbury, don't be afraid. Your baby will not suddenly bond with this Nidiot stranger. Your baby will not be hurt by this in any way.
Since this is at the contact center (I assume) then you will not be leaving your child unsupervised with this moron.
I know the fear, but you are far more of a force than this GNAT of a "man".
(on the side, can't you get an order for NO CONTACT with this guy because he pulled that horrifying stunt with the police?...just a thought.)
In the meantime....take all the advice here....it's all good. Act cool, professional ( YOU are the parent, not him) and in control. Won't be hard to do, as you are all these things, and he is not). Phony works....dignified works....
remember, all is well, you are a wonderful mom!
And imagine ALL of US with you, right behind you....angel wings....(really pissed off angels, with tons of power) Thats what you have with you.
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I have not been in this situation, but friends of mine who have say that the key is to make it tough for the N person to see the kid without making clear that you are setting the boundaries. In other words, make him make an effort without any payoff, keeping in mind that he gets lot of payoff from "winning" games he makes up in his head. If you seem to be telling him what to do, he may like to rebel against you and get N supply from that.
This has worked for folks I know-- they use the courts or "circumstance" or whatever to make the N work hard to see the kids. They also make sure the kids are not at their angelic best for the visit-- this is easy to do (I realize now, as a parent!) by scheduling-- all kids have fussy times of the day. In other words, emphasize the hard part of parenting, not the fun part. He will run away faster than you can say "selfish bastard." Parenting probably seems glamourous to him (and he probably REALLY likes making you mad/winning over you and trying to look good to authorities). Instead of blatantly fighting him, try joining him in the parenting, complete with diaper changes (I forget the age of your child...), screaming tantrums, etc. Try to schedule his visits at really inconvenient times, like Saturday night around dinner time.
Just some covert ideas. He sounds awful. Can you document the ridiculous stuff he has done/does?
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My head is a little insane at the moment and my computer isn't showing the last response thing, so I am answering "blind" and trying to respond to everyone. Thank you all for your wonderful responses, you all help me so much.
Vunil - I think your ideas are good, I was kind of thinking along those lines anyway. In actual fact the time that contact has been arranged is right when my son should be having his nap, so he may well be a little cranky. He is only 5 months old and I just don't like having to put him through this. I am hoping that my ex will (as many of you have suggested) lose interest when he realises I won't fall for his power games.
Mum - I don't think I will ba able to get a no contact order. If only... He is a convicted child abductor, he has two convictions for actual bodily harm and that is still not counting against him :( Doesn't seem fair at all, but there we go.
(Can't see any further back on previous posts, so winging it from here on!)
I will definitely be as phony as I can, I WILL NOT engage and all those other things that he loves. I will stay distant and civil at all times and hope to God that he loses interest in all of us.
I definitely think I will have to ask for 2 weeks notice from now on. I just worry about court and all that. I feel stupid having jumped as quickly as I did, but I thought that may look better to the judge. I just don't know. I will be thinking of you October too on Saturday. If it helps, the way you cope with your situation gives me strength :)
He sent me this email just now ( obviously I have blanked the various identifying bits :) ):
Hello*Cadbury*,
How is our son?
Does he need anything?
Is he siting up and eating?
I don't have a camera, do you still have your digital
one?
If so would you mind taking a few photos on Saturday
for me please?
I don't know whether to bring *his other son* on Sat it
may be best to wait until next time.
*Tithead*
Like he couldn't get one of those disposable cameras for about £5? He asked me about two days ago how "our son" was (I didn't blank that out - he never uses his name. Always "our son". This is an improvement - we used to have how is "baby" ) Also, our son is 5 months old, why would he be sitting up and eating? He is a baby!! HE always has this thing about achievements, the things he says his first son did would have gotten him in the record books...He asked me if he was crawling 2 months ago. So far I just send short " *A* is fine, weighs x amount" emails back, but I think he is now starting to cross boundaries so I have not responded to this one and don't intend to. What do you all think? You are all fabulous to help so much. I just can't believe how easily I struggle to cope with this emotionally with just one trigger from him. :(
thank you all (again) x
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I definitely think I will have to ask for 2 weeks notice from now on. I just worry about court and all that. I feel stupid having jumped as quickly as I did, but I thought that may look better to the judge. I just don't know. I will be thinking of you October too on Saturday. If it helps, the way you cope with your situation gives me strength :)
Actually, thinking about it, perhaps request for three weeks' notice. That way, if anyone squeals, you have room to negotiate down to two weeks without losing ground. 8)
As for Saturday, and seeing me cope, well, I don't know if this will help or not. Well, I rang ex tonight, and he sounded p****d. For a man with such severe medical problems, this is not a good thing. So I am ringing him again tomorrow night, and if I get the same feeling about him that I did tonight, we are not going.
He always gets confrontational after a drink. He said, you are just looking for an excuse not to come and see me. I said, I don't need any excuse. If I decide not to come, I won't come.
I told him that C was concerned too, because she had spoken to him as well, and he does not sound right. He told me 'that is her problem'. She heard him say it, and is really furious with him for putting the problem onto her.
I know your situation is not the same, and that you have courts and judges involved, but there is something I always remember, when dealing with difficult situations; it is far easier to get forgiveness than permission. :lol:
In other words, I would say, if you need to do something on your son's behalf, however much other people don't like it, then go ahead; you are the mother and you are allowed to do that. Don't wait for permission first, because you may not get it, or it may take a long time to achieve, and meantime you are suffering.
Set the rule yourself; three weeks' notice of any visit from now on. Give him this in writing on Saturday, with your reasons, and let him challenge it in court if he dares. If your reasons are all about the advantage for your son of being prepared for a visit, and not having sudden changes of routine, then that is going to be hard to fight. Especially if the father hasn't turned up most weeks.
I would say, consider taking the initiative, and setting the rules. If they are reasonable, and you can show that you have your son's interests at heart, the other side's solicitors may argue against this, but they are unlikely to win. Imo, what will look good to the judge is a mother who cares about her son, and who sets reasonable boundaries to invasive or inconsistent behaviour by the father.
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Cadbury,
I love your pet name for your n sperm donor. I'm sure it fits him to a T (or tit as the case may be :lol:). I think you are making good choices and decisions for the sake of your son. All of the suggestions made have been good and you just need to concentrate on keeping a very calm demeanor. Do not engage him, don't tell him anything he doesn't ask about, keep anything having to do with the future very vague, and be as indifferent to him as you can possibly muster. This may be a performance of a lifetime (I know, math is your thing, not acting--but fake it as best you can :shock:), but the more you can do this, the more likely it is that he will get bored with the dance and go find another partner.
I keep you two in my prayers.
Hugs,
Brigid
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Sitting up and eating! Tell him that, yes, you often go to fine restaurants and you are pleased because the baby is now fluent in french and can order wine for the table.
Actually, of course, you are right not to respond. I wouldn't do things for him, either, he will like that and you don't want him liking the visit. Tell him you don't have a digital camera (or that it is broken). I have found that catering to N's makes things worse. They are always nice (or at least nice-ish) before they get awful, so his "interest" worries me.
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.........the baby is now fluent in french and can order wine for the table.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Gave me my laugh for the day! Too funny Vunil!
:D Sela
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Hey vunil,
Don't forget, if Cadbury tells Tithead 'his' five month old son is fluent in French he'll probably actually believe it and claim he taught him everything he knows while they were crawling together a couple of months ago. :?
If so would you mind taking a few photos on Saturday
for me please?
Hi Cadbury,
Wasn't it you I suggested send a picture of a baboon to your ex nut and tell him 'here's the chip off the old blockhead' a while back? Here's the perfect opportunity. :wink: He's begging for it. :P
mud
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You all make me feel so much better! I had to laugh.
Sitting up and eating! Tell him that, yes, you often go to fine restaurants and you are pleased because the baby is now fluent in french and can order wine for the table.
So funny Vunil! I was thinking about it! I told him that our son (A) is close to crawling, which is really quite early. He said "Well, I crawled at three months, so that's to be expected" ... Of course he did.... I just smiled and nodded, smiled and nodded ......
I definitely think I will have to ask for 2 weeks notice from now on. I just worry about court and all that. I feel stupid having jumped as quickly as I did, but I thought that may look better to the judge. I just don't know. I will be thinking of you October too on Saturday. If it helps, the way you cope with your situation gives me strength :)
... there is something I always remember, when dealing with difficult situations; it is far easier to get forgiveness than permission. :lol:
Wise words, thank you October. I have told him that I need notice as to whether he can come to contact of at least two weeks, which he has agreed to. The important difference is that I am going to mean it :)
Do not engage him, don't tell him anything he doesn't ask about, keep anything having to do with the future very vague, and be as indifferent to him as you can possibly muster. This may be a performance of a lifetime (I know, math is your thing, not acting--but fake it as best you can :shock:), but the more you can do this, the more likely it is that he will get bored with the dance and go find another partner.
Thank you Brigid... I did my best. The best acting I did was when he told me he had been hit by a car last week... I didn't even smile! I acted vaguely concerned "oh dear". When I got home I told my mum and laughed myself silly. Sounds cruel, but the thought of someone driving at him was just too much. Apparently it has been caught on CCTV ... now there's a Christmas present I really want!
Wasn't it you I suggested send a picture of a baboon to your ex nut and tell him 'here's the chip off the old blockhead' a while back? Here's the perfect opportunity. :wink: He's begging for it. :P
Yes, Mudpuppy, it was! It made me laugh then and it made me laugh now! In the end I just didn't bring my camera at all and didn't mention it.
So... the conact wasn't as awful as I though it would be. Mostly thanks to all of you calming me down before hand! I kept as distant as possible. Sat right by A so he wouldn't worry about the stranger with him. I was polite, but as distant as I could manage. Tithead (TH) hadn't seen A for 4 months and brought him absolutely nothing. Not a toy, not a present, nothing. Well, what did I expect?
He talked about himself for ages, but it wasn't as bad as I had anticipated... which worries me.
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Hi Cadbury,
He said "Well, I crawled at three months, so that's to be expected"
No doubt he delivered a lecture at Oxford at four months about his crawling at three months. :x :P
I'm very glad things went better than you anticipated, and I wouldn't worry about it one bit.
Just shows you're stronger than you think. :wink:
mud
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Cadbury,
Sounds as though you were truly in control, and your response to the accident story was MASTERFUL. I really believe that the more you practice this "dull politeness" the easier it's going to get. I'm totally impressed by how you've internalized some new, self-protective behaviors. What's more I think that although the "non-reactive" stance may feel like it's not really you right now, after practicing it more, every single time, it really will become you. You'll actually BE underwhelmed, not overwhelmed, and actually feel not much of a reaction to him (except boredom, irritation, which you can successfully hide, as you've just found out).
Congratulations to new on a brave and competent and sane, sane new course.
Nothing's going to stop you now!
Hopalong
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Welll done, Cadbury. I am pleased you survived so well.
(Our own contact did not take place. C didn't want to go, so we didn't go. I rang and told ex that we are both tired of running after him, and responding to his dramas, and decided that enough is enough.)
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It is so nice to be somewherre where everyone sees through him and understands what being with an N is like. My friends try, but they can't seem to grasp the fact that he doesn't react as a "normal" person does to any situation. My mother still takes all his vicious little acts personally and gets so upset and annoyed by his behaviour. She cannot believe he can do something totally cold and callous and then carry on as if nothing has happened. She doesn't understand that it isn't personal to him, he moves on so easily because there is nothing behind any of his actions. No emotion at all.
Thank you for all your words of support. Mudpuppy - you made me laugh again!! Hopalong - I tried so hard to keep polite distance and it wasn't too bad. He was acting as though we were together again and trying to create that special bond that he generated for our relationship. HE asked me if I had felt anything last Saturday around 12. When I said no, he gave me his "look" which means "you say that, but I know the truth". That look used to terrify me, now it makes me laugh.
October - I am glad you didn't go running to your ex, and even more glad that it was your daughter who made that decision. It means she isn't falling for his various manipulations. She is so strong for 12 and that is down to you. Be proud of that! :)
I keep going over the contact in my mind. Mostly analysing his behaviour to look for signs as to what he may be thinking. I have to laugh at a lot of it, it helps me cope. For instance he wore a suit and tie. Only an N would do that. We were sat in a church hall, with some dear old lady volunteers and some other families meeting children. He wore his best suit with a silk tie. A ate it. Why oh why would you do that? I *think* it is because I once said I liked him in his suit. So there you go... perfectly apt place to wear it, to see your 5 month old baby. Eating it was about all A thought was appropriate I think.
Lots of Nish things happened. I know all about him, all about his life at the moment. Everything he does or has done. How great he is. How hard he is finding life at the moment. He wrote his car off a few weeks ago apparently. blah blah blah. You will all be relieved to know that after watching me pull up at the kerb, my driving was deemed to have improved. Why thank you oh king of the road. How was it you crashed your car exactly sir? !!! :D :D
Then last night I received this email:
Thank you for today,
it was nice to see A.
I hope you didn't feel too awkward.
I'm glad you went to the houses of Parliament, must
have been quite a thrill, well done.
Hope the girls are doing well and S likes school.
I hope you don't think I was picking any negatives out
with A, I sometimes joke and people take it
serious, he has a lot of your enduring qualities, I
hope he doesn't have any of my bad habits.
I hope I didn't make you late for your mother, I
rather like your enthusiasm for shopping and buying
things, it's refreshing and bright.
Tithead
C was very interested.
Is it the most patronising thing you ever read? I note I have enduring qualities... not endearing, but enduring. If he wasn't so perfect I would have said he'd made a mistake ... :D My enthusiasm for shopping and buying things is "refreshing and bright"... not necessary and essential then?!!! Oh the joys of Nism!
That's all for now, but thank you all again for your responses, it means so much to have this sounding board. I don't feel half so insane! :)
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Nice job, Cadbury. You have "endured" this N contact with good humor and your head held high. Yes, I agree, it's great to have a place to go where people understand the "N effect". Your children are very fortunate. You are a remarkable individual....and a great mom. Love to you.
(oh, and I love how his email "approves" of you :shock:....his way of being nice....poor guy, he just doesn't get it!!!!)
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Thanks Mum!
Well, I had to meet him for mediation yesterday... that was ...interesting. It was refreshing to see that he ios as muc ha tit with a stranger as he is with me. The mediator starts by writing some information about both of us on a flip chart as background. He starts with TH.
MEDIATOR: So TH, you are 39, unemployed and ... *Interupted*
TH: Well, I am a single parent, not unemployed, I don't like that term. I don't feel it applies to me. I don't like being labelled like that. So yes I am a single parent, not unemployed.
MEDIATOR: With respect, I do deal with single parents who do work, so it is just a description...
The whole meeting was like this. Not one answer TH gave was straightforward. He is such an idiot. I felt so sick even talking to him. We have another meeting in 4 weeks after we have had a little more contact. I hate the thought of it even, but I suppose A will want to know his father, even if I don't want it to happen. I am so utterly sick of him, I wish he would just go away. I know I've said that before, but God... I hate him.
Anyway thanks for listening again :)
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What a moron, huh? It's pretty amazing to me, but they still get rights and still get to walk the earth, and as my second husband used to say: "it's not illegal to be an A**H***!" So true.
My ex did that same kind of double talk in mediation...
They really have no clue how they appear. They think they are smart, witty, wonderful, and if anyone thinks otherwise, well, then the N is just a "victim" of other bad people who are stupid and mean... Everything is twisted, nothing is straight.
But what I have decided, is that my children will be wonderful because of who their dad is....or despite it, I guess. Just like my trials and tribulations have led me to a better understanding of myself, so will the fact that they have an N father.
good to hear from you Cadbury. Keep hugging those kiddos!
Mum
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Cadbury,
You can do this! Think he is nobody (there is nobody inside himself). You're a good
mother. He is just a fake. Fake father, fake lover, fake everything.
I just want to push the idea of Vunil about diapers. My N hates diapers. But still she
needs to change them by herself. It might be one of the most terrible things for her. I
suspect that I can extrapolate and that it must be traumatizing for ANY N. Being a father, I
wasn't really excited about diapers before having my own children (I'm not excited
about them now ;-) It's just neutral :-) ). So, I guess your male N could be traumatized too.
If your child is thirsty, the N might be able to give a bottle and soothe the child.
If your child is tired, the N might be able to put him asleep.
Diapers... They need to do it. It is dirty. Hard to be proud of. They question
themselves afterwards...
Try to combine all of it maybe, this will give you some flexibility. If you son was
fussy and the N put him asleep and want to show that he is great you could just say
'Of course, he was ready to sleep.'
And keep the distant politeness (Great idea!). Your N will probably bring great gifts.
You do not care. If he dresses your child in cute little clothes, you do not care (you
can be proud and admirative of your beautiful child AFTERWARDS). Don't take
pictures of him if you can. Don't use your own camera. Don't promise to send
things afterwards. Don't engage if your N tries to bring old or new painful subjects
(you can say: ' No, I forgot.' if he tries to remind you of old stories. Or 'I don't
know' or 'I will see' or 'certainly not', etc...). If he says you're beautiful, you do
not care. If he says you're not (I am sure you are), you do not care. If he brings
you a present. Take it, put it aside (don't throw it, just put it aside).
If he says 'I would have done better if I had seen this child more', you could
say something like 'They are all the same'. If he asks you if your child is great,
better than others (more beautiful, quieter, stronger), etc... Just say 'No'. If
he insists 'He must be better'. Just say 'No' again. I know it is difficult for a
parent but in front of him, just remember that your child is soooo common.
You are not required to give more than the visit.
He is not allowed more than the visit.
He is probably more scared than you.
There is a limit in time.
About the E-mail he sent (I didn't read all the posts, I am not sure if you answered already)
vs 'How is our son?', 'Can you take picture of us?',... you could just answer 'I don't have
my camera' or 'Take your camera'. No need to answer the other questions...
If you think you made a 'mistake' during the visit. DO NOT WORRY. Take it as
something you learned. E.g. if you say that one of the toys is great, at the next
visit (if there is another one) if he brings the subject of the toy, just say 'Which
toy? Oh yes, I do not remember...'.
You will do great ! :-)
SurviveAndGrow.
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Cadbury,
Sorry, I answered to an old post thinking it was new. I'm a newbie...
I was so glad to use some of our awful experiences to help somebody.
I read the things your N did during and after your meeting. It's so
similar to what my NMIL and one of my wife's friend would do.
Glad it went well and you are having fun with this assh.... in a suit.
SurviveAndGrow.
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Survive and Grow - your post was excellent thank you so much! I have more contact next week with N and I will definitely use a lot of your suggestions. I did quite a good job last time, but did find m,yself engaging a little. He is such a creep. The times when I am unprepared are the worst. For instance I leant over to pick up a toy A (my son) had dropped and ex N said "Oh, I can see you are still feeding him yourself". What a horrible thing to say! I felt so uncomfortable and just kind of stuttered at him. I couldn't think how to respond. If I had said that what he had said was inappropriate he would have gotten all over defensive and blamed me for taking it the wrong way. I suppose I should have just said "yes, I am" and ignored any of his suggestive comments.
I still don't know how to deal with his lies. He will say something that I know to be untrue and I am left wondering how to respond to blatent fantasy. He sent me an email saying that he had tried to pay some of the money he owes me into my bank account, but they wouldn't let him. Now, I know he wanted me to fawn at his feet for being so thoughtful, so caring... but I have just ignored him.
Also, he will come out with odd things at random times. We were in the middle of discussing contact with the mediator on Friday and he just suddenly turned to me and said (in his serious voice, because he is oh so important) "Can I ask Cadbury, *looks at mediator as if to show him that I am an idiot who needs help* is all of this because you don't want to share him? That you want A all to yourself?" I just looked at him and said "No". The mediator just ignored the comment entirely. What an odd thing to say though? What do you say to that? I wanted to say "No, it is because you are a convicted child abductor who goes utterly insane if anyone goes against your will" ,but I had DO NOT ENGAGE imprinted on my mental forehead... so I resisted.
I think what surprises me every time is how I cannot prepare myself fully, because he will come out with something so insane and unwarranted that you couldn't even have thought of it before hand. The only good side of this is that he doesn't realise he is nutty and so carries on regardless and I get to enjoy the looks of mild incredulity on people's faces. At which point I raise an eyebrow to say "see? I told ya!".
I have to look at a lot of it as amusing or I would go insane myself.
For example:
When asked how he saw the contact going over the next four weeks, how specifically he saw his time with A (his 5 month old son) he said:
"Well, I want to be there for him. I want to watch him grow, be involved with every aspect of his life. Tkae him swimming, play foot ball, take him to the park... everything"
The mediator repeated the question 3 more times before he actully got any semblence of an answer. I was smiling to myself as I knew he wasn't hiding his nuttiness and someone else would see how is really is.
Anyway, sorry for rambling on. If anyone has any (more!) advice on how to deal with the unexpected or inappropriate things then please give me some suggestions... thanks again :)
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You are doing great, Cadbury. DO NOT ENGAGE on your forehead....perfect. The off the wall stuff IS intended to get you off the non engagement track. Keep on NOT responding. Can I just say, though: EEEEEEEWWWWWW on the slimy comment about you nursing!!!
WHAT A JERK!!! Remember, gratitude is what brings us to a higher level of consiousness.....so turn that ewww into being grateful that you are not married or still with such a toad!!!!! (like I have to tell you that!)
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Cadbury, I agree, you are doing great. Keep it up. It sounds as if all you need to do is sit by whilst the N hangs himself on his own petard.
S&G, your post was masterful. I don't have a new baby or anything, but I printed it out for future reference just for the general tone.
Plucky
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Thanks again Mum and Plucky...
Just been bothered on YIM by him.... This is the conversation, do you think I was distant enough? I would really appreciate any opinions/advice:
TH: Hello Cadbury, how is our baby boy?
Cadbury: He's fine.
TH:: Good
TH:: I managed to get the video you sent me working, he's very keen
Cadbury: yes, he finally did a couple of moves today. Oh and he said Mumma
TH: Ahh
TH: What time are we meeting on Saturday? Did you find out anything else regarding *contact centre 1*?
Cadbury: I am going to*contact centre 1* with the forms tomorrow (needed an appointment). Saturday is 1 pm at *contact centre 2*
TH: Did I not have to send in a referral?
Cadbury:: Don't think so. I had to as I have parental responsibility at the moment. She will tell me tomorrow. You may need to send in the financial agreement.
TH:Okay, you will let me know then?
Cadbury: yes
TH: I have an exam tomorrow an *other son* is collecting his award for his GCSE in front of the school thursday evening
TH: just thought I'd let you know incase I'm not here
Cadbury:: ok
TH: Have dead rotting mice in loft
TH: next door poisoned the ones living in his loft and they legged it into mine to get away and dropped dead, so have a house that resembles lord of the flies
Cadbury: oh dear
TH: Big juicy blw flies too
TH:: I won't bother you anymore, so I'll say goodnight, does A like his bear? Can he hear my voice?
Cadbury:Hard to tell
TH: Well give him a kiss goodnight from me please, goodnight Cadbury, sleep well.
Cadbury: ok night
I know I did engage a couple of times, but really would appreciate any ideas on better ways to answer his crap.
Thanks again...
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Since you asked....a revised version including reduced supply!
TH: Hello Cadbury, how is our baby boy?
Cadbury: "name" is fine.
TH:: Good
TH:: I managed to get the video you sent me working, he's very keen
Cadbury: Mmmm.
TH: Ahh
TH: What time are we meeting on Saturday? Did you find out anything else regarding *contact centre 1*?
Cadbury: Not yet.
TH: Did I not have to send in a referral?
Cadbury:: Don't know. You should call them.
TH:Okay, you will let me know then?
Cadbury: You'd better call them.
TH: I have an exam tomorrow an *other son* is collecting his award for his GCSE in front of the school thursday evening
TH: just thought I'd let you know incase I'm not here
Cadbury:: Oh.
TH: Have dead rotting mice in loft
TH: next door poisoned the ones living in his loft and they legged it into mine to get away and dropped dead, so have a house that resembles lord of the flies
Cadbury: oh.
TH: Big juicy blw flies too
TH:: I won't bother you anymore, so I'll say goodnight, does A like his bear? Can he hear my voice?
Cadbury:Hard to tell
TH: Well give him a kiss goodnight from me please, goodnight Cadbury, sleep well.
Cadbury: Good-bye.
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BTW, I think you did exceptionally well. Now, on to perfection.
Plucky
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Thanks Plucky! That is exactly what I was looking for! I just get torn between wanting him to love our son for the gorgeous baby he is and knowing that he is incapable of that.
BTW Why the hell would I (or anyone) want to know about the dead rotting mice? What a total weirdo!
I still get annoyed that I even answer him. I just think that if I ignore him he will think that it's because he is getting to me. After much internal arguing I came to the conclusion that detached is better... just need to get better at it.
I didn't tell him that I threw thebear with his voice in to the back of the garage, I wanted to but left it. "HArd to tell" took me about 3 minutes t think of. (longer than it sounds - honestly!)
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BTW what are you doing sending him a video? Just asking. If you really have to send it to someone, I'll watch it.
Plucky
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I forgot to say that "hard to tell' was a gem. You are a fast learner.
Plucky
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One more thing and then I will shut up finally. You say you want him to love your baby. Well, even if he were capable of love, which we all know he is not, you do not want him to love your baby. Because then he would be around. Forever and ever, amen. With a little effort, he will be indifferent to your lovely son (great!) and sometimes forget about him (better!). This is your goal. Portray your son as an undifferentiated lump, as surviveandgrow detailed. Make him out to be someone who will never ever be a decent source of supply. And then raise him also not to be a source of supply (blood) for the vampire who is your X.
An adamant
Plucky
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Plucky - you do not have to shut up! This advice is exactly what I need! The video was a mistake. he asked me for some and I couldn't think of an answer fast enough... this is where I berate myself endlessly. I need to get better at just saying no and not feeling I owe him anything. :(
Thank you :)
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Oh Dear Cadbury! Please don't berate yourself! You are doing a marvelous job so far! Really, you are. And you will get better at it, as needed, if needed!
But......since you asked, here's my version of the perfect response to TH:
TH: Hello Cadbury, how is our baby boy?
Cadbury: OOOeeeeeew! It's you! Go away!!
TH:: Good
TH:: I managed to get the video you sent me working, he's very keen.
Cadbury: Oh dear! I must have sent that by mistake. Oh well! You can see he's not like you at all!
TH: Ahh
TH: What time are we meeting on Saturday? Did you find out anything else regarding *contact centre 1*?
Cadbury: What am I? An information booth? Go find out yourself you big TH!!
TH: Did I not have to send in a referral?
Cadbury: How the heck should I know boob brain?
TH: Okay, you will let me know then?
Cadbury: Maybe in your next life dumbo. Clean your ears out!
TH: I have an exam tomorrow an *other son* is collecting his award for his GCSE in front of the school thursday evening
TH: just thought I'd let you know incase I'm not here
Cadbury: As if I care whether or not you are even on the planet or about your plans to do anything tomorrow. Pretty hard up aren't you, for someone to notice? Not me! See ya, bye!!
TH: Have dead rotting mice in loft
TH: next door poisoned the ones living in his loft and they legged it into mine to get away and dropped dead, so have a house that resembles lord of the flies
Cadbury: Hahahaha! I see your next door neighbour's plan!! Are you sure it's the mice those flies are after? You're right though, they love dead, rotting, poisonous stuff. Gotta go.
TH: Big juicy blw flies too
TH:: I won't bother you anymore, so I'll say goodnight, does A like his bear? Can he hear my voice?
Cadbury: Bother me? Not possible TH. Not by you or other rodents. They're just a nuisance but there are fumagators who deal with it. Hear your voice? Ha!! I through that out ages ago! See ya, bye.
TH: Well give him a kiss goodnight from me please, goodnight Cadbury, sleep well.
Cadbury: I don't think so but thanks for asking. Oh.....yes. I sleep very well now that all the rodents are gone. See ya bye.
( :P :shock: 8) :shock: :roll: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :lol:)
Guess ya can't use that one eh?
You're doing sooooo much better than I would be! You're my new heorine Cad.
:D Sela
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Oh waw ! Sela... Great ! Would you like to come and live with us to repell our rodents?
Cadbury,
I think you are on the right track. Keep learning. You are totally right: Say 'no' and
indeed you do not owe anything to this freak. He is out of your life. He does not deserve
you.
I was just going to add two comments following Plucky's revised discussion (besides that the 'oh'
answer is really good).
1) Try to substitute 'good' by 'nothing special' as much as possible. Follow up by
'no' when asked 'really? There must be something special. People must say he is beautiful.'.
You might like to try things like 'just average', etc... Hopefully, this freak will think that you
'polluted' his genes (Not the son you hold in your arms, the other one. The fantasy view he
has of.) and slowly leave. Send the movies, pistures, etc... to Plucky or some of your friends or your
neighbors, not to the freak. :-)
You do not want him to think that you are a good bearer of his past and future (sorry for the
awful vision. It will NEVER happen.) kids. Let him think that he made a mistake by 'selecting' you.
2) I think that you are probably right on the 'polite distance'. My instinct is rather to avoid contact
(Oh well, I probably have pretty bad post-traumatic disorders by now). You do not have to have
any relations with this freak except during the legal obligatory times. He is not a member of your
family. I would recommend to not consider him as a member of your son family either. Do you see
what I mean? He is a stranger. It happens that he is the father of your son. Forget it. It is
not 'really' family. And it is NOT YOUR FAULT! (Don't feel guilty of anything. The 'mistake'
you made gave you a wonderful A :-).) Just go with the legal obligatory contacts.
So... I am little long to say: a) don't hesitate to say 'I need to go. Bye.'.
b) I am ready to bet that it is possible in YIM (I know it is in AIM) to filter who can see you...
Hm... hm... You do not need to change your ID, he does not know that you filtered him (no power trip),
and you can live in your 'safe world'. Note that this option in YIM is because you have the
RIGHT to do it. You also have the POWER to use it.
Finally, it might be good to give a thought to Sela's strategy of inverting the power but I am
not sure of what the reactions will be (any woman who managed to or tried to tame a male N
who could recommend on this?). I am pretty sure the distance strategy will work.
You're doing great.
That's all I needed to say. (I am going to fade away from here at least for a little bit.) Keep posting.
I am sure that A is a good boy and that he will grow into a good man,
SurviveAndGrow.
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Sela... Great ! Would you like to come and live with us to repell our rodents?
S&G, as I wrote:
...there are fumagators who deal with it.
Besides, I'm too busy picking bits of dried goo out of my own wounds. No time for small things that scamper about your place in the night. Try the yellow pages? Thanks for the invite though...(I think :shock: :?).
Sela
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Thanks for the invite though...(I think :shock: :?).
Sela,
Yes! It makes me feel a little bit better when I imagine our N's (= our rodents) at the place of Cad's freak in your revised discussion... Just a dream... :-) Thanks... :-)
Sorry that you have wounds still partially open but glad that you are healing,
SurviveAndGrow.
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Sorry that you have wounds still partially open but glad that you are healing,
I think I feel kind of lucky that all I have now are bite marks and wounds.
S&G, sorry that you have rodents and hope you find a fumagator soon.
:D Sela
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Wow! You people are fantastic! If only I had thought of all those things to say! I learn so much from you all. I still get that relief where people understand me... I have posted on another board a little of this story and a few people there were full of the "well, he is the father you should have a good relationship with him", no matter what I told them, they saw it like that. I love it that people here actually know what I am trying to deal with.... huge relief...
Sela your alternative wwas so funny! I laughed out loud... If only! That is my dream responses! Thanks for that!
HE is such a slime ball... I spoke to the woman at the contact centre yesterday and handed in the referral forms. I had marked him as a child abductor... must have forgotten to tell her that it was parental child abduction... whoops... must have slipped my mind. :) He won't like that....
I am feeling so much relief that other people do see him for what he is. My biggest worry was that they wouldn't be able to and I would look insane. At the moment however, he seems entirely unable to hide his nuttiness which is good.
Thanks again... I have actually made notes! I treat this board as my crib sheet for my "exam" !! I have little listsfrom you all :)
Well, time for tea and some of my namesake ...
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I have contact tomorrow :( Wish me luck...this doesn't feel any easier...
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Good Luck Cadbury hon.... Your strong and I think your doing so well, you'll be fine xx
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Due to the fact that neither your nor my dream conversations with TH are likely possible tomorrow, please do your best to respond with the rather non-reactive/bored/unconcerned/totally off the wall responses which may or may not have been suggested by the wise people here such as:
"oh" (looking out the window or searching for something interesting to look at)
"really?" (with a confused smile, pick up a magazine and glance through it)
"hmmmm" (think about chocolate or a large piece of cheese cake, your choice!!)
"un huh" (imagine his hair in curlers or him wearing an evening gown, again your choice)
and my fav:
"what?" (hahaha...laughing sweetly, change subject to completely unrelated topic, as you leave the room)
Go girl!!
:D Sela
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Cadbury, remember, this is a visit between him and your son. It is NOT between your exNidiot and yourself....why would it be?
So, if he tries discussing anything other than your son with you.....(and you already know not to gush answers), just ignore it and maybe even say, "You and I are not visiting..."....(because let's face it, if it weren't for that baby, you'd have nothing to do with this loser.)
You'll be fine...you are NOT his supplier......(of anything)
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whoops... must have slipped my mind. Smile He won't like that....
yaie! If you have to think of him at all, and hopefully not, think of some other things he won't like!
Cad, I think you are very prepared. Each meeting is not a one-off test. You get to refine your technique and practice it. Please don't berate yourself, and I'm sorry I brought up anything that would lead you to do. Just say to yourself,
"I'm not perfect!"
Because no one is, and neither are you called on to be perfect. Exception: your X is a perfect arse!
If you accidentally agree to do something for him, you can always 'forget'. "I forgot" (Never say I'm sorry!!!) ", you'll have to do it yourself/I won't be able to/you'd better not count on me".
Stay only as long as you are obligated to.
Good luck!
Plucky
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Thinking of you, Cadbury!!!! Sending light and strength!!!!
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Okay, well the meeting is over for another week. It was horrible, but I think I did okay. He arrived at the grubby church hall wearing a suit and tie again (the same suit and tie as last time). I had brought some of my PhD work and opened it up as soon as I got in to the room. He kept trying to talk to me and I would just get a far away look of concentration, and he would apologise for disturbing me. I ignored his apologies. Everything he said I tried my best to just "hmmm" or "uh huh" and pretend to be entirely indifferent.
He finally brought his son a present .... a plastic teether. Must have cost him all of £2. He went to open it and give it to him, but I said I would have to take it home and sterilise it first. He tried to insist, but I stood my ground. HE had also brought a present for me.... he brought me chocolate! I hope you are all proud of me... I told him I had given chocolate up! He said that I may as well have it as he wouldn't eat it and I just said NO!! He left it on the table for the rest of the visit and even though I could hear it calling me... I didn't touch any!!
He kept trying to engage me and saying random odd N-ish things and I coped reasonably well. He looked over my shoulder at my work. Now, I should point out that I have a maths degree and am in my second year of a PhD and due to the fact that it was my supervisor's work I was having a hard tiome understanding a word of it :lol:, however, My ex looked over my shoulder and said "I understand that.. ha now that surprises you doesn't it?!" I said "Really? Explain it to me then, I don't understand it" He actually shut up. This was followed by looking at me very seriously (as they do when they are about to say something of world importance) and then saying "How does it feel to be so much better at maths than me?". He thought this was a serious and reasonable question to ask. That was one thing I didn't know how to answer, so I kind of stuttered... but at least I didn't engage.
The dodgy comment of the week was when he was talking to A "Look at you - you put everything in your mouth! Just like your mother", dirty tone, leery look. I pretended I hadn't heard a word and scribbled it down under the guise of writing notes.
A was extremely tired (funny that ;) ) and towards the end of the visit he had gotten very fractious. This is when I did a bad thing... I knew that if A saw me leave he would go mad.. so I suddenly needed the bathroom. I made sure A saw me leave and went... noting the screams of an over tired baby behind me. He would not calm down and I could hear him from the bath room. It was horrible, but I wanted my ex to know what it can be like to have a baby and hopefully get tired of it and leave us alone. When I came back A was reaching for me and screaming and ex N wouldn't let him go to me. Not until I said I would have to take him home as he was too unhappy to continue the visit. We left around 15 minutes early. Ex N was a little annoyed, but it was for A not him.
Not too bad then really. Thanks for all your encouragement. I was thinking of you all whilst I was there! I had Sela comments going round in my head and wishing I could say them. When he did the worst things, I was smiling as I thought of what you would all say.
Slightly unrelated: A is now 6 months old (well, Friday) and he finally slept for the night! I had thee first full nights sleep in 6 months the other day, and then he did it again last night. I feel like a new woman!
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((((((((((((Cadbury)))))))))))) hon.... I feel so proud of you. It is so difficult to change techniques and very easy to fall into the old ways, I don't mean by going back to him, I mean that if anyone else had bought you chocs you'd happily accept, so I feel this is such a great achievement, being able to see him for what he is, and respond in a way that suits you.
His maths comment made me laugh. How dare you be better at Maths than him, what were you thinking!!! lol
Well done as well for working the suitation to suit you with A and the bathroom. So it's a little bit naughty, but sometimes we have to do this kind of this to protect ourselves and to protect our children.
Take care
H&H xx
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Cadbury, way to go!
I think you did a marvelous job of this visit and you will only get better at it. Ok .....just for fun....a creative recap:
TH: Blah blah blah
Cadbury: Hmmmm.......unhuh
TH: Sorry, blah blah blah, sorry, sort of, blah blah blah blah
Cadbury: unhuh? hmmmm. pardon? What? yeah right.
TH: I have a present for you.......chocolate.
Cadbury: Hmmm. What? oh....I don't do chocolate anymore. Stick it where the sun don't shine.
TH: blah blah blah
Cadbury: unhuh. hmmmmmmmm. yeah right.
TH: random odd nish blah blah blah
Cadbury: Huh? hmmmmm. yeah right.
TH: (looking over C's shoulder at math work) "I understand that.. ha now that surprises you doesn't it?!"
Cadbury: Quite a bit. Explain it.
TH: (thinks: dummm dee dumm dumm......phooey)...." (says nothing) "
Cadbury: Yep, you're a rocket scientist alright. Unhuh. Hmmmmmm.
TH: "How does it feel to be so much better at maths than me?"
Cadbury: "It feels wonderful! I love it!! I'm waaaaaaaaay better at soooooo many things than you are! Eat your sick little heart out......TH....now where was I......oh yes.......hmmmmmmmmmm"
TH: (looking at 6 month old A and speaking) "Look at you - you put everything in your mouth! Just like your mother", dirty tone, leery look.
Cadbury: (Maybe thought: Hey A! Don't worry about what TH is trying to feed you. It's not what goes in your mouth that matters. It's what comes out!) but says: Hmmmmmmmmmmm I'm off to the ladies room now as I really feel the need to purge!
A: whah whah whah whah whah whah whah whah whah whah whah whah whah whah whah........
TH: :shock: :? :roll: :?
Cabury: (secretly) :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Yesssssssss...........I think you did a marvelous job! Very well done! Glad you were thinking about what others here would like to say to TH.....and smiling on the inside. Wonderful!!
It just seems like he's trying soooooooooooooooooo desparately to get some control.......to trip you up....to shock you.......to get you to react. You did a fantastic job of not giving him that!! And his disgusting comment makes me want to hurl!! Good for you for ignoring it!
Re: Sleeping through the night. I remember that!!!
:D Sela
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Cadbury,
you did great! you
1. rejected his 'unsanitary' gift to A
2. rejected his 'romantic' gift to you
3. made the baby reject him
4. made sure his intelligence and integrity were in question re the maths problem
5. said nothing really to engage at all
6. cut the visit short
7. Ignored his leer
8. took notes
I hereby award you a diploma from the No Supply University.
Yay!
Plucky
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Cadbury,
You ROCK!
Gosh, he did his absolute best to try and hook you and none of it worked. Awesome!! And the bathroom break was brilliant.
:D MP
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Ps He's sleeping thru the nite already? What a GENIUS! Brilliant for you! I know exactly what you mean by 'new woman'. Wait until you can take a shower anytime you want. Woo-hoo!
Plucky
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Cadbury
No Supply University
You go girl!!!
I only have a second to say how impressed I am with your strong efforts and well deserved
Diploma, Plucky awards you......the No Supply University.....
The bathroom break could serve you well in the future. The moment I gave him A I would find the need to run for the bathroom that was great!!
wanted to let you know how proud I am of you and will be facing my Ex in court at the end of Jan.
I must fly out to CA for the settlement divorce. I have managed to maintain full custody of our 13 yr old for now. I hope I can be as strong as you.
Got to go !!! take care ................OR
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Hi Cadbury,
It has been such an inspiration to read your progression from scared-s**less to in control, competent, and actually EXERCISING so many of the "tips" while the contact was actually going on. Really, that is powerful stuff. I hope you feel proud of yourself because it really is such vivid evidence of a person who is taking her own mind back! I loved catching up on this and it is an amazing example of how things really can be changed just by changing the way we ourselves react (since we can do zippolah about anybody else). I am sooo impressed, and want to thank you for letting us walk through the blow-by-blow way you've managed your responses. It really is encouraging, both in specificallly visualizing how to deal with an N, and also just as a way to remember that empowering things can happen if we are determined.
thanks so much for sharing it all. This is exciting and inspiring--keep posting these "scripts" from your contacts, you give us all strength!
KUDOS,
Hopalong
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Wow.. I cannot believe how nice you've all been! I just do what you all say and it works! I did go through a totally crap stage last year of missing him and thinking he was human, so it has been a long journey. I couldn't have done it without this board. I dread to think what my life would be like without you all!
You are all fantastic people, so thank yo uso much.
I have very little time as I have to go and get ready to drool over Josh Holloway in Lost tonight, but I wanted you to know that I have read all your responses and am so wonderfully happy that I have come so far.
I have a bigger challenge on Friday, when we will have a room to ourselves in a contact centre... I am terrified, but trying my best to prepare myself mentally for it. I find it so hard to be so rude to someone, I am not naturally like that. That is something I wouldn't have done if I hadn't read all your advice on how best to deal with him. He already emailed me today to ask if he could change the time from 10 until 11.30... I said "No I cannot make that" and I didn't even give a reason, which I would have done before you all ...
I will update as soon as I can and thank you all again ...:D
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So...Friday wasn't too bad. It was horrible being alone in the room with him, I hated it so much. He kept trying to engage with me and I did okay... not brilliantly. It was much harder when it was just the two of us. He kpt telling me I looked nice (ignored), I was a good mother (ignored). Then he told me how he had been trying to get me a present that he "just knew I would have loved". I told him that there was no need for him to get me presents. Then he gave me a very serious look and said "Cadbury,......tell me do you have this effect on all the men you've been with". So I said "Yes, there they all are waiting in a line outside the door". Actually, I didn't say that at all... that is what I thouht sela may have come up with :D so I smiled to myself and ... stuttered like a mad fool. :( I just couldn't think how to respond. I also had a few moment s where A was fretting and I couldn't help myself showing tithead what to do to calm him. the best thing was that A is going throug ha very clingy stage and if I am in the room he gets quite upset. He spent the whole hour looking for me and (miracle of miracles) calling "mum-mum-mum-mum-mum" the whole time. It was likely just random noise, but it made Tithead get a little put out. He told me it was because I spoil A...
I found it so muc hmore difficult than it sounds here... I can't explain why. I think it is because Ifeel like I am playing a game to his rules all the time. Although I am so much better about not engaging, it is still a real effort. He gave me some of the money he owes me and that concerns me... why? He is not likely to do anything if it doesn't have his best interests at heart, so I wonder what he is up to.....I have been quite low since Friday, for no reason I can properly explain... strange.... I will think on it and see if I can put it into words...
Thank yo uall again :D
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I found it so muc hmore difficult than it sounds here... I can't explain why
Cadbury...maybe I can help with that explanation....your heart of hearts (your son) is in the arms of the man who you most despise in the world (with good reason), who doesn't deserve to hold this precious child, as your son is crying for you, and you are forced to allow this because it is what tithead's "legal rights" are.
Sounds pretty horrible to me!
It will all be ok, Cadbury. You are doing a remarkable job. So what if you stammered when he made a comment specifically designed to catch you off card (and sound complimentary too.....what an jerk...grrrrr!). That doesn't mean he called the shots, or you played his game....not at all. Let that one go. He said something ridiculous considering the context, and any NORMAL person would have that reaction. Doesn't mean anything, except you are normal and he is not.
Bravo, strong woman!!! Bravo. Your son needs one good parent. That is you. Tithead is an interloper, and sidebar, and an idiot as well. Don't waste any time wondering too much about him. Every week is practice in letting go of this emotional "thing" he does to you.....( I know, I practice this with my ex ALL the time). It's good practice, seriously. If you get this one figured out, NOTHING can keep you down ever again! NOTHING. And you are almost there, kiddo!!!!
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Hey Cadbury,
Um could you refresh my memory? So who was the jerko here, was it you? Oh no, it was tithead? Ok well if you have to berate anybody, berate old tithead here. Not yourself. You've been coping admirably. Of course you have qualms, and shivers, and acid in your stomach. I do not envy that one bit. It is not easy, but it will get easier. Old Ns have trouble learning new tricks. Whereas you, my dear chocolate bar, are a very quick study. The hardest thing in the world to learn is how to change your emotional reactions. It requires not only intellect but willpower, motivation, flexibility... I'd go on but I fear your level head would swell.
Plucky
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PS he gave you the money to try to do something 'nice'. Not nice as in good to you or the Right Thing to Do. Niice as in, 'now you owe me something' or nice as in 'see everyone what a great person I am'. Or nice as in 'she won't be expecting this, so I can get the upper hand for a moment.'
The correct reaction? "Where's the rest of my money?" or "About time. What took so long?" Don't you DARE feel GRATEFUL or THANKFUL.
A belligerent, indignant,
Plucky
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Cadbury, I swear Mum and Plucky were IN THAT ROOM with you!
I too think you did just magnificently.
This is Broadway, you do the same play over and over and every now and then you forget a line or trip over a prop. So what.
You are just amazing. The down feelings are just that you didn't have the new adrenalin high of the first triumph! But consider this...the ultimate goal of these contacts for you is chronic mild irrittion and...BOREDOM.
Yup. No drama. Just a really boring chore you get more and more detached about doing and which soon will not derail you from enjoying the previous and following hours...fully.
STILL totally impressed. Quit grading yourself. It's a pass-fail course and you're way better than passing this! You have so many serious reasons to sit down and have a nice session of real self respect. Just try that on like a beautiful new coat and walk around in it.
I bet you'll be wearing it more and more, because it looks GREAT on you.
Hopalong
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Hiya Cadbury:
I'm with the others who have praised your responses. I think you are doing a marvelous job! Truly! You are getting better and better at dealing with this dope! That's fantastic!!
...the ultimate goal of these contacts for you is chronic mild irrittion and...BOREDOM.
Oh Hoppy!! I sooooo agree! Or better yet.......as entertainment! Not really something you look forward to with glee......but something you (Cadbury) can come away from.....eventually.....shaking your head and smiling at how silly TH is.......how juvenile.....and how some of his antics even make you laugh!!! Rather than inducing acid in your stomache.....something that gives you a chuckle, part of the time, and is otherwise, quite boring.
Then he gave me a very serious look and said "Cadbury,......tell me do you have this effect on all the men you've been with". So I said "Yes, there they all are waiting in a line outside the door". Actually, I didn't say that at all... that is what I thouht sela may have come up with so I smiled to myself and ... stuttered like a mad fool.
Hahahahahahahaha!!! Oh yes! I might have said that!! Or even maybe......:
TH: "Cadbury......tell me do you have this effect on all the men you've been with"
Cad: "Oh for heaven's sakes no man!!! They acted normal!!"
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: (and if he should then ask: "Normal?" maybe respond: "What? Oh you know! Normal silly! Like a normal person!" and giggle sweetly!!
Great going Cadbury for thinking up stuff to keep you grounded and even giggling inside! Maybe that shiver was you resisting bursting out laughing? Or soon it will be!! Even the thoughts that make you smile will help to calm you....help you keep your boundaries safe.......even help you relax a little. After all......he is just a TH trying every trick! He's playing a childnish game and losing! You're waaaaaaaaaaay too adult to get taken in by him! Soon....you'll be confusing the heck outta him!! He'll have tried it all and still be a loser!!
:D Sela
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Hey Cadbury
I think that you are doing just great, BUT, sorry if I am missing something and do not grasp the whole situation, why do you have to put yourself through all of this? You find it distressing to be in his presence, and he makes smutty sexual remarks to you. So who can make you be there?
He has permission to see his child right? But the child cannot bear to be without your presence for more than a few minutes right? So OK the visit has to end pretty quickly and the child returned to you (waiting in another room). It seems to me that tithead will get fed up with this much sooner. You being there, seems to me, will be giving him the message that his presence is not that bad as far as you are concerned, and actually being such a tithead, might even mean that you are still interested ? YUCK!
Mati
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Hello Cadbury,
ugh, this does sound hard and you did well even though you have to feel lousy when you see tithead...
My guesses as to why you feel lousy even though you did well:
1. you had to see him at all
2. before you broke up, you both could pretend you were relating, but it wasn't relating
3. now you know the two of you pretended, but even with this knowledge you must still play a role, not be yourself and it's exhausting. You have changed, but he has not. He's exhausting for another person to be around whether or not the other person is healthy or not. You've changed, but the two of you still cannot relate because this is an impossible task for him. (I still work on this one when I see Nfather...)
4. You want to immunize A against the unhealthy atmosphere tithead presents. Who would knowingly expose their baby to radiation? And yet you are required to do so...that would make any caring mother feel icky.
I think he gave you the money because nothing else will keep you "hooked". Good! He's getting the message that you mean business. He'll probably hold back just those last few dollars when he figures it out. I'm glad you are rejecting his meaningless stupid presents.
If he asks you some other provocative question, just toss the question away. You can tell it's irrelevant when it confuses you whether it's better to answer yes or no. Just say "irrelevant". Pretend (since we're still pretending) that you are a defense attorney. The courtroom game is based on whether questions are fair or not, asked appropriately or not. So think "Objection!" "Sustained."
Perhaps it will help you to know that A is a strong and resilient baby. All the time you spend with him makes him that much stronger and healthier for when he has to deal with adversity from any source, including dear old dad. IMO, that's the part of you that is still vulnerable to this creep. If you can find a potent shield, then you won't feel yucky. And I like what Hoppy said: stop grading yourself! But if you still need to grade yourself, measure your progress by how quickly you and A bounce back after the visit. :D
You still rock, girl! Hugs, MP
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I'm just following along here, and want to echo what a great job it sounds like you're doing of not giving the N his supply.
Just posting to suggest:
Next time he throws one of those "unanswerable" questions at you--"How does it feel to be better than maths at me," "do you have this effect on all men," just give him a faintly puzzled look, and say, "Huh. I couldn't really say."
The point of those kind of questions is, of course, to throw you off your game, so take as much time as you need to think of a reply. Don't worry about coming up with the "right" response or even any. Pretend you didn't hear, or just acknowledge that the question didn't make any sense and you don't know what the bleep he's talking about. Ignore him; when he asks again, blink at him as though you've just intercepted a signal from planet Claire (which you have, pretty much), and say, politely, "Hm?" Repeat as necessary until you've collected yourself: "I'm sorry?" "Do what? Hm?" (If you want to be evil, which you probably don't since that constitutes engaging--my weakness!--you could keep making him repeat himself until he sounds like a parrot. at any rate it's murder on the "soulful, serious" vibe they want to project. most likely he'd respond by getting irritated...) Winding up with the standard: "Huh. Dunno. Couldn't say."
good luck!
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(one last thought)--actually, what would *really* kill him, especially if it's a question about "how's it feel to be so much better than I am", just say: "Huh. Never really gave the matter much thought."
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Hi Cadbury,
Like everyone else I think you're doing great.
One thing I've found that helps, is to remember what the shrinks tell us about these people. They use others as a mirror. The only reflection they see is when we respond. If we respond compliantly they see themselves as in charge. If we respond defiantly they see us as not recognizing their wonderfulness, but they're still in charge cause they pushed our buttons.
So IMO the way to not be a mirror is to not respond at all. You become transparent; a window not a mirror.
If he gives you money he owes you, put it in your purse without a word. If he says anything at all that absolutely does not require a response just stare at him blankly or nonchalantly look around the room, occasionally meeting his gaze with no expression (if he is the type who maintains eye contact). Or take a book with you.
Anytime he tries to engage you stop and take time to think whether the world will end if you just ignore him. It won't.
If you're lucky he'll lose interest and leave you and your wee one alone.
mudpup
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Thanks again to you all... your support helps me so much.
Today we had mediation and everything I have managed so far has been blown away because I just couldn't seem to keep it together. It was awful... he pushed every button and the mediator cannot see him for what he is and thinks he's this great father trying to do his best... I got angry, I got upset I fell apart, left the room, sidled back in .... you think of something wrong to do with an N - I did it. I feel utterly awful about it. I am just going to eat something and try and calm down a little then I will respond to you all a little more... I feel crappy... :(
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Tithead is YIM-ing me.... I am still engaging...please, someone shoot me!
Tithead: I know you were, I do know you, I just wish you wouldn't think off me in a way that I'm not.
Cadbury: you don't know me at all. Not in the least bit. I don't think of you at all if I can help it, but when I do, I know I have finally seen exactly what you are. That isn't anger, that is fact.
I have to stop.... He is pushing buttons... listen to myself!!! Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Sorry - insane rambling....
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((((((((((((Cadbury)))))))))))))
Oh, Sweetie. I'm so sorry you feel things went awry!
I had a similar experience in the presence of a mediator. It was as if I FINALLY had a chance to empty out all those bad feelings I had for what my ex did in front of someone who I thought would SEE what was going on and what a horrible man he is!! Unfortunately, what she saw was me, being very angry and hostile and not dealing well at all, while he sat there just acting all nice and normal. It was terrible, too.
The GOOD NEWS: it was not the end of the world, nor did it "put him up one" in any way.
I thought it was the bottom, believe me....and for me, it was the darkest hour....just before dawn!!
Please have faith. I have found in my life, that those moments (days, weeks,) at the bottom of the ocean are the times when a miracle is just around the corner.
Anyway, by the next time I went to mediation, I had really done some work letting go of my anger and hurt....and I was calm and collected, and my ex was a mess!!! The mediator was appalled at his behavoir, really. I think the more healthy we get, the worse the N's get.
And the bottom line is: what happens in mediation (at least here) unless agreed upon by both parties, goes nowhere....mediators cannot testify in court, etc.
PLEASE don't take this temporary setback as the way things ARE. It is already in the past. Got that? PAST.
It's over. You don't need to punish yourself anymore for not being "perfect". That's all in your head. Change your mind about what that is, ok? You get to decide....you get to give yourself a break.
Right at this moment, you are ok. Don't worry about the future...it doesn't really exist....or the past...that doesn't exist either.
You are a great mom....you are responding to trauma the way anyone would when they think they have a sympathetic audience.... Hang in there. Sending you peace.
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Ok, Cadbury. I will stop you.
UNPLUG him. Don't respond, it is not you responding...it's your anger...don't let it control you.
So get somewhere alone (you have kids...how about a closet??)
Try this: (it helped me)
Imagine a chain around your middle....he holds the other end. Now imagine a huge axe, chain saw, etc...that cuts through that chain like a hot knife in butter. Rev up that saw, girl....scream "YOU HAVE NO POWER OVER ME" and cut it!!!
OR; (and don't let your kids see this....mine did and it scared the heck out of them...they had no idea mom had such rage):
pound and scream into a pillow how angry you are at the unfairness of it all...at the pain he caused, at the connection you are stuck with to him.....and after a while you will see that baby's face and realize the bigger picture....don't try to see it too soon. You MUST acknowlege the anger, just not to Tithead!!
Let me know how it goes. Sending strength.
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Thank you so much mum... I am trying to stop, but I am so angry. I have to stop, I am torturing myself. I have gotten worse, I have answered him loads of times... I will stop it now. Thank you so much for your support. I willupdate this later. Thank again ...
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Ditto Mum, very word.
A relapse is just a relapse, Cadbury hon.
It's one step on the way to full recovery.
It's even PART of recovery.
Sometimes our old-selves just rear up and resist our demands for change and growth. Think of nature, how much upheaval is involved in birth, how messy and painful it is before the little chick is out and all fluffy and cute. DON'T WORRY about making bloody mistakes, you've been in labor! You're in transition, fergodssake...women are BANSHEES and say (or IM....) all SORTS of things they don't mean when they're laboring to give birth (to new selves).
Please stop punishing yourself...you don't deserve it. Somewhere down in, you know that. WE know that and we'll remind you!
And this may sound, ummm, repetitive, but isn't there a thing called Block Sender?
If you can't easily turn yourself off, or right now you're vulnerable to the hook of his IMs, can't you BLOCK HIM FROM INVADING YOUR COMPUTER?
(You'll soon be just as safe as you were earlier, in contact, or with the mediator. Do Not Worry about it. You can simply pick up the new practices of nonreacting and start again. It is just that...practice. You will do it and do it and then one day it'll dawn on you that you're in it all the way. Your detachment won't be a scary new "acting" part any more, it'll be a real part of your new character.)
Much love and support to you.
Forgive yourself RIGHT NOW! (Wouldn't you say that to one of us?)
Hugs,
Hopalong
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Hi Cadbury,
Take a deep breath. We're still here rooting for you. It isn't easy, is it? But you're still standing.
Go take your sweet baby to the park and have fun, just the two of you.
(((Cadbury)))
MP
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Hiya Cadbury:
I'm with everybody else. This isn't your fault. People who act like this are sooooooo agrivating!!
Or...........
that's what they do best. They're like nasty pests.
"Block sender" sounds like the answer. That way......you won't be tempted to engage.
It's like an alcoholic pouring all the booze down the drain to keep from drinking it.
It might seem drastic but for the time being......it will work.
Then.......to keep from going to the liquor store!!!
"Block sender" eliminates the liquor store. There's nothing to respond to if it doesn't get through.
Do it!! You can always unblock later...if you decide you must for some reason.
((((((((((((((((Cadbury)))))))))))))))
Your experience with the mediator might have seemed to you like you flew off the handle but any mediator with a brain knows there are tons of reasons for that. You can't be sure what the mediator thinks, can you?I'm sure they see it all the time and I doubt very much that they judge people by it. It's all such an emotional process so don't worry. You'll be fine next time. You can work on being fine and get to a place where you can get through it.
Block Sender (nag, nag, nag :D)
Sela
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Well I BLOCKED HIM :D..
I feel a little better this morning. the bad news is that I didn't block him until I had ranted at him like a mad loon. He is such an evil piece of poop and I couldn't seem to stop myself. It was like I was taken over by an evil demon :?. I guess I had just got so worked up that I couldn't help myself. The only thing with an N is that none of it even affected him. It was like I told him how much I hated him and that I only saw him because I was legally obliged to, that I thought he was a worthless piece of humanity.... then I stopped (I didn't apologise at all), but he then carried on as if nothing had happened. It was insane, but taught me NOT TO ENGAGE (again!).
I have read everything you have all written and thank you all so much (yet again) for all your support. I really couldn't get through it all without you. Yesterday just got to me because he really hit me that for the rest of my life I am going to have this connection to TIthead, and that he has so many legal rights that he doesn't deserve. Sitting there hearing the mediator say what will be best for A (my son) and him having no conception of what tithead is actually like or capable of. Having a voice screaming in my head that the best thing for A would be for his father to drop of the face of the earth, while trying to discuss having to hand my precious son over to his idiot father was driving me insane. Then tithead was coming across like he was the most reasonable man on the face of the earth, whereas I was some insane woman trying to punish him. It just all got too much...
Well, today is another day.... I can start over :) Thanks again... off for retail therapy :)
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Whew. BRAVO! You blocked him!
(You're right, your ranting won't mean a thing to him.
What's more, you don't ever want to email another word to him in case he keeps copies of it in some fashion. I've never used IMs so I don't know if they can be printed out, but I sure have had email come back to haunt me.)
Had a thought about next time you see the mediator. You will be all calm and emotionally "empty" at that point, of course, so you migh simply look the mediator in the eye and say, I realize there was a great deal of emotion last time...but what's taken place in the background is not always visible under a reasonable surface. I'm am sure you have seen many traumatized people "lose their cool", but I got it out of my system, so let's just move on.
I've never been in that position, with a mediator, so maybe others who are more familiar with this system might have a more helpful idea, if you need one.
You're still CHAMP CADBURY!
Not to go all icky, but thinking back to my image of a woman in labor, it really is true that before the baby crowns, it literally pushes out, then slips back, then a little farther out, etc, before it's fully born. And another thing. For years, every time I heard the maxim "Two steps foward plus one step back..." all I ever heard was the word BACK. And beat myself up for it. Was only recently that I realized I'd never done the math! (I may have said this on another thread, sorry if so...senile me.)
Hopalong
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Hey Cadbury,
Call me a pollyanna. But I remember not that long ago you were still caring what tithead thought (before he was christened tithead) and feeling as if you missed him or wanted him back a little bit.
And now you hate his stinking guts. yay! Now THAT is progress!
Yes, it seeped out a bit. It's a big feeling. It can't be contained. It's got to come out somehow. Mum had some good suggestions. Let it out, somehow. But don't hate yourself for hating him. If that's the case, you're going to have to hate a lot of us!
I'm just glad you hate that git wholeheartedly.
Let's hear it for unmitigated hate! When warranted.
a twisted
Plucky
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Well, I haven't updated for a while - so here goes...
I take my darling boy to see his Tithead sperm donor on a Saturday morning from 9-10. I stay in the room as I wouldn't trust Tithead with him. It is excruciating as I have to listen to him talk about himself, make inappropriate comments to me and generally be disgusting and lecherous. I hate every second, but am gradually getting better at not showing him how much I hate it.
At Christmas he had presents for me, my two girls and our son. I only took the presents for our son. I told him it was inappropriate for him to have got the others. He says I am being ridiculous and that he cannot take them back. I told him that was his problem, not mine. He left the price labels on all the presents he got our 7 month old baby. He has tried to give me my present in lieu of money once since Christmas and now they are left (still wrapped) right in front of the chair I sit in when I go there. I ignore them. I bring a book with me now and make a pretense of reading it (of course I am too tense to actually get anywhere, but he doesn't know that). He tries to talk anyway, but I generally ignore him.
I am doing okay at being distant, but it is difficult.When I am not talking to him he talks to the baby. "Does mummy feed you too much?" " Does mummy pick you up as soon as you whinge?" " Is mummy spoiling you?"... I am getting better at ignoring that too.
I hate that I am stuck with him, I hate that I have to try and fight for my son's sanity against a system that does nothing to recognise this man for what he is. Every site on NPD I have looked at he hits every single criteria, not just one or two. I am working flat out at my PhD to get qualified as fast as I can in the hope I can move away. Because my job is specialised I am hoping I will stand a good chance of being able to prove I have to move for work. Still, that is at least two years away.
The good thing is that in July the judge ordered him to provide medical evidence by August 26th - he still hasn't which is a direct breach of the court order. I am hoping that will go against him. As it is we are due back at mediation soon. My standpoint is going to be that he provides the medical evidence or we go back to court.
Unmitigated hate going strong!!
Thank you all again for your support and apologies for not updating this sooner, but I have been finding it hard to find the words sometimes.
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Wow Cadbury, I'm so impressed with your determination and strength.
I love the idea of reading a book. Ok, you may not be reading it... but it's all about appearances anyway with him isn't it?
Fingers crossed him not handing his medical in on time goes against him.... and good luck Cadbury. I'm inspired by how well you keep your boundaries in place.
Best wishes
H&H xx
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Thanks H&H!
My boudaries aren't always so good! I had to gear myself up for the Christmas presents by thinking of any scenario first ad planning how to react. I was shaking like a leaf when I left the house. You all know how it goes - it was MY fault for being so rude/ignorant/ungrateful as to refuse HIS presents. The worst part is that to an outsider it may also look a little over the top, but they don't know what he's like.
I have to almost pretend to be a different person in order to be as cool and distant as I need to be with him. I find I have an almost constant dialogue going on in my head throughout each visit to work my way through all of the things he is saying. One of the biggest tricks I have learned is to give mysef plenty of time before I respond to him. Then I pick one person in my life who I know to be normal and gauge how insane he is being by their (imagined) reaction. This works for me, because I know that others are (and have always been) immune to any charm I seemed to see. For example:
TH (holding son): He's perfect isn't he
Me: Yes
TH: So we did do something right then?
I struggled trying to answer this, and then realised that it was NOT NORMAL to ask such a thing.
Me: What kind of a question is that?
TH: I was just asking a perfectly normal question
Me: I don't think so at all.
*End of discussion, head back in book*
So it is a fight every single time to stay in control of things, but I try and try and hopefully one day it won't feel like I am trying so much.
Thank you again!
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Hiya Cadbury. What a way you’ve come! Give yourself a big piece of praise (or maybe even a big piece of chocolate).
About this trying to work out if something they say isn’t normal: these days I think: “Would I ever say that to someone?” and it generally works. Can you imagine yourself saying “so we did something right?” unless you were trying to be manipulative?
Hope it might work for you too. And you’re doing great :D
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Thanks Portia... that is good advice too. It is true... no one would say the things he says....
:)
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Hi Cadbury:
You're doing fantastic! Really!!! You are thinking before reacting......which is sooooo hard to do and such a wonderful skill. You've developed it with him!! (maybe not after every single sentence .......who's perfect?.......but mostly you're doing it and that's just fabulous!!). I agree with Portia. Give yourself a big pat on the back for learning so much and doing so well.
Ok........the-wants-to-hammer-him-big-time-part-of-me-is-coming-to-the-surface-again ( :mrgreen:).
Have you thought about taping these lovely visits? Is it legal?
Up here......in Canada.....it is legal to record a conversation between people as long as one of the people is aware that the conversation is being recorded (and you would be the one person aware...since you would be recording it :D). The recording can even be used in civil court (but not criminal court).
Note: It is illegal, here, to record the conversations of other people (in which you are not involved in the conversation) unless......the people conversing.......all of them.....are aware that the thing is being recorded.
Anyhow, when a situation came up...where I needed proof and could think of no other way......I put a micro recorder in my purse...with a little microphone and recorded certain conversations (advised to do so by my lawyer). In my case.....the information gained was worth it's weight in gold and really helped.
I wonder if recording would show that TH is using visitation as a means to pester you? If it might show that his concern for his child is pathetically low or absent? Just an idea. Maybe useless.
Keep your chin up Cadbury. This won't last forever (I guess I sound like a broken record sometimes eh? I just think it's sooooooo important to remember there will be an end to this junk).
The worst part is that to an outsider it may also look a little over the top, but they don't know what he's like.
Key word........outsider. Not someone close, inside the picture who knows TH or his tactics. Not someone who cares about you and your son. But an outsider who really doesn't understand the situation. To an outsider.......everything looks different eh? That's ok. We're all outsiders to lot's of stuff.
You did the right thing about the Christmas gifts, if you ask me. Those were/are just a tactic. At first...to try to woo, buy and trick you. Now, a reminder of how "nasty" you are (and how patient and committed he is). :x :twisted: :!:
To steal an old.....well used line:
GAG ME WITH A SPOON!!! (need a barf icon about now).
Manipulative.....controlling.......garbage is all it is.
Great for bringing the book to read! Hey! Maybe next time the title will be:
"How to deal with controlling people" ?? or "The emotional vampire" ?? or something that fits??
(((((((((((((((Cadbury))))))))))
:D Sela
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Cadbury,
Thanks so much for giving us an update...I'd been thinking of you.
What a strong person you're becoming. We had Martin Luther King day yesterday (my hero)...so when I read about your contact sessions and realize what it costs you to not go mad with rage...my respect deepens. (Can you imagine how those folks in the deep South felt about the sniggering sheriffs and their dogs and water hoses? They just kept walking...wouldn't take the bus...did not engage...would NOT quit.)
This bit made my skin crawl: '...he talks to the baby. "Does mummy feed you too much?" " Does mummy pick you up as soon as you whinge?" " Is mummy spoiling you?"... "
Makes me respect your strength even more. I personally would like to squash him like a bug.
I wonder, what if you brought a cardboard box and packing tape with you next time, already labeled Salvation Army, and simply picked up his "gifts" and placed them in it and taped it shut. Leave it behind.
Ns are such tightwads maybe he'd stop foisting unwanted gifts on you. This way, you let him feel the pain of spending money without getting the "score" of making you take things home with you.
Or maybe that's engaging too and might encourage him to play even more games with it. (He'd bring something enormous the next time and smirk at you).
Anyway, it's thrilling that you may get a chance to move away, and better yet that he's screwing up by not providing medical evidence that the court's expecting.
Please keep us posted!
(((Cadbury))))
Hopalong
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Cadbury, OR, Mia. Solidarity, women. That's the power. Right there with you!!!!
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hi, Cadbury, got my posts mixed up. You are amazing. Doing a wonderful, just wonderful job. An example for all of us facing this kind of monster. I have decided it may help me to picture YOUR ex, or another one of these idiots in place of my own exN and then I can pretend I am YOU and just read my book!!!
Thanks for your inspirational and POWERFUL (yes, powerful) attitude.
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Hi Cadbury,
My heart goes out to you! I did not take the time to read all the posts on this thread -- there are so many! -- but just in case no one else has mentioned this, if I were you I would get a background check done on your N ex. He may very well have some type of criminal history which would be a great advantage for you to know about in re the courts. I also wonder about his background in re friends and family. Since he has fabricated things about you, something tells me he has a past replete with stuff that really DID happen, and that you could find out about and prove in court (with willing witnesses).
Sorry if that is of no help, but just wanted to post it in case it would be of help, because that really, really bothers me that he has been making those false accusations about you!
Best of love and luck to you and your precious baby!
TP
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Oh! One other idea. Again, I don't know your full situation as there are so many posts in this thread, but I did read a few dozen of them and saw no mention about the financial aspects. Is your N ex paying child support? If so, you may have a huge bargaining chip there.
My son's biological father was someone I KNEW I did not want to have to be in my son's life if he didn't have to be (especially considering his past history of pedophilia but no police record of it to my knowledge). My trump card with him was that I told him that if he would give me full custody of the child I would not ask for one penny from him. He accepted. I know I saved myself and especially my son much emotional strife by doing this. Yes, it was HARD to get by without child support, but it was WORTH IT, totally!!!!!!!
It may be too late for you to do this. I was fortunate in that I did this before the baby was even born. He supplied me with a signed and notarized document signed by witnesses called "Waiver of Interest in Child" and when I got that I made many copies. It has been a bigger sense of security to me than his money ever could be, no matter how desperate the financial situation got at times. Now my son is away at college, on grants and student loans. We made it, even though I had no family to help me financially.
Whatever you do, remember "where there is a will there is a way."
Meanwhile, in case this man stays a big part of your child's life, I'd like to share the experience of my half-sister, who grew up with our N mother and her loving father. She is in her 30s now and will tell you today that EVERYTHING good in her childhood was from her father, and NOTHING from her N mother. Her dad loved her so well that she grew up having a healthy disdain toward our N mother's antics. She grew up very self-confident, assertive, sweet and with very strong boundaries.
Hugs,
TP
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Sorry to keep posting here. I keep forgetting to say something: I gave the example of my half-sister growing up with our N mother because I myself did NOT grow up with our N mother. I was one of the children she left behind when she married the father of my half-sis. I was devastated to grow up without a mother, and only later in life realized that my half-sister was not luckier than me to have been the one to have a mother the whole time -- and even longer than that to realize she had it worse than me, but for her father.
Having just ONE truly loving and nurturing person in your life can be all the difference in the world....!
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TH (holding son): He's perfect isn't he
Me: Yes
TH: So we did do something right then?
Cadbury: Well....I did anyway.
Plucky
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Thank you all so so much for your support. This was a quick note to say thanks and I have read all your responses several times.... just need to find enough time to write a proper response to you all....
I had my first session with a therapist last week, so I am still sorting through everything from that too. Hopefully tomorrow I will be able to update you all properly...
thanks again everyone :)
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TH (holding son): He's perfect isn't he
Me: Yes
TH: So we did do something right then?
Cad, scratch my response above. Someone else a few pages back had much better advice. Never say the child anything but average. Then the N cannot take any credit, or supply.
Plucky
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Well.... it has been an incredibly long time since I last posted! How is everyone?!
I thought it would probably be better to post in this old thread simply because it would save me having to go over everything again.
So... 5 years on, what's changed?!
Well.... the court case is still ongoing. We are back again on Jan 28th and so far have had 3 (count 'em) FINAL hearings. Maybe things have changed, but I am sure the word FINAL meant something once upon a time!
I moved 240 miles away from him to be with another man (bad times, another story). I qualified as a teacher and successfully sued tithead for the money he owes me. The court case continued in the new place and became ever more complicated when tithead managed to get himself banned from the contact centre. Three cheers for the madman! We went back to court and I was representing myself, with the aid of a sympathetic lawyer who had prepper me thoroughly. I requested psychological testing as I felt that tithead was mad. He responded by saying it was actually me who was mad. Result? The judge sent us both off for psychological testing. 9 hours of testing over three sessions. I had 2 sessions, Tithead had 1 session then said that the psychologist had a secret agenda and withdrew from testing. Then said okay he would be tested, then turned up for a cancelled session and ranted at everyone how it wasn;t his fault, then finally had his second session. I return for my final session and the psychologist team are acting a little differently. I think the difference was from hearing my side of things and then meeting the man himself. They had never seen anyone quite like him. They tagged him as definitely narcissistic. I cried with relief. The Psych said "he cannot hide what he is. These personality disorders are exactly that, he cannot hid his personality as he does not know it is different".
You'd think that would mean something, but no.... tithead refused to accept the findings of the psych and wanted him struck off the court record. Apparently I had managed to charm the man into being on my side. (I am so powerful!) After a whole day in court tithead was awarded 3 hours of contact every 6 weeks to be heavily supervised. Back to court in a year to review. That was in Nov 2009. tithead has not taken up any of the sessions. He has followed me 240 miles across the country when he found out I was single. Followed me back down here when he discovered I had run away from him, but not made any effort to see his son. Then on Christmas Eve he turned up at my parents house with a present for our son. My car was there, he knew I was there. I phoned the police in abject terrror:
Me: "My ex, violent, boyfriend has turned up at my parents house where I am staying with a present for our son"
Police: "Did he do anything threatening?"
Me: "No, he just handed a present over and left. But he's not supposed to!"
Police:"You are phoning to tell us someone gave you a present at Christmas?"
ME:"YES!!!"
Ever felt an idiot?! I hate it that his games are so insiduous that people cannot see what he does.
As for me, I have been in therapy at the refuge for over a year nowand amfeeling a lot better for it, but with the court case rearing its ugly head again, I have gone a bit wobbly... My little baby is now almost 6 and so far I have kept him safe from tithead who has never spent any alone time with him.
How's everyone else?! :)
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Ever felt an idiot?! I hate it that his games are so insiduous that people cannot see what he does. Yup yup yup. How do you think the conversation, with the police, would have gone had you told them your ex was menacing you at your parent's home, sans the details abuot dropping a Christmas present? If your ex is under a court order to stay away from your son, outside the strictly supervised planned visits, then that's contempt, and it's the police's job to document that event. They don't want to, but you should keep asking until they write that report, IME. Document document document.[color]
As for me, I have been in therapy at the refuge for over a year nowand amfeeling a lot better for it, but with the court case rearing its ugly head again, I have gone a bit wobbly... My little baby is now almost 6 and so far I have kept him safe from tithead who has never spent any alone time with him.
That you've managed to protect your son as well as you have, for as long as you have, is remarkable. I'm so sorry this is happening to you. Isn't it nice when people like your ex show others who they are..... and those other people believe them? All you can do is keep fighting the good fight, and maybe get a recording device.... about $70.00, but worth the investment if your State allows it. When your ex admitted to lying about your father sexually abusing you, and all the rest of it ::shudder:: wouldn't it have been nice to play that recording back? I don't know what other things he says to you, in private, but I'm guessing some of it would help you protect your son. You must purchase another device to record telephone conversations..... ask the guys at Best Buys..... but ask the Manager. Not the teenaged help. It's a bit complicated, and you need to practice a bit to figure it out. Good luck to you in court. Lighter
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Thank you Lighter. I thought the same about the court order and supervised access, but the police seemed to think that it would be hard to prove that he knew I was at my parents' house.... Even though my car was there...
I had him arrested back in the summer when I was finally strong enought to bring the rape charges against him. He admitted that yes, he had used a knife and tied me up, but I had forced HIM to do it... the police said it would be my word against his and dropped the charges. I guess I have a lost a lot of faith in the authorities. :P
Anyway, I am lucky enough now that I have fought hard enough and long enough that I do not have to have any direct contact with him. It is just there is no way round hearing him talk when we are in court and the terror it brings back to hear his voice... *shivers*
And then there's the way he stands and stares at me. :( Still, better than the start of this thread!
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He admitted he tied you up.....
and used a knife....
and raped you?
And the police dropped the charges?
I'm......
I'm.......
really wishing you'd recorded the conversation of him admitting he lied, bc he was "hurting."
He harms you, then seeks sympathy for harming you.
Typical.
So so sorry, but you're doing so well.
Hang in there.
Lighter
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Thanks Lighter! I appreciate the support.
He never admitted the rape, he said he tied me up and had sex with me at knife point because I made him. Still.... life goes on.
As for the things he said, I have most of it in email, it just doesn't seem to make much difference.
Our last court order gives him supervised contact every 6 weeks with a specific perrson (named in the order). He just wrote to my solicitor today and said "Thank you for the email, I shall forward my position statement ASAP, I am having a great deal of difficulty with contact centers so if you have any suggestions I would be most grateful." WTF?!! We haven't had a court order yet to replace the previous one, so what is he doing?!!! I hate all this "on my terms" stuff he tries to pull. I am hoping and hoping that this time someone will call him on it. It drives me insane!
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Well... It's been a long time since I updated. More than three years in fact!
I don't know how many of the people who remember me are here. I saw a post from hopalong but I haven't seen anyone else (but I've not done a massive amount of reading). I actually have good news!
After 6 and a half years in court we actually had a proper final hearing (our fourth!). Tithead represented himself and I actually had legal representation. After disputing his previous diagnosis of NPD because (he said) I had swayed the psychologist, he was ordered to be retested by a psychologist that I had never met. He was diagnosed with NPD. He argued with the psychologist ( of course!) and said that he had done some research and felt that the psychologist and not tested him correctly. He wanted the psychologist to use the new diagnostic that had not yet been published. The psychologist shot him down in flames and told him that under the new diagnostic they were moving away from diagnosing one particular personality disorder, and moving towards diagnosing people with a core personality type and elements of others. He said that under the new diagnostic, tithead would have a highly narcissistic core with elements of psychopath... It was a brilliant moment. I had to look down while that came out.
Tithead in court was something to see. He was representing himself, not because he had to, but because he knew he would do a better job than a lawyer. It was beyond terrifying when I had to take the stand and be questioned by him, but I addressed all my answers to the judge. When he questioned e psychologist it was actually awful to watch. It was the first time that I had ever truly realised that he cannot help what he is. He genuinely doesn't know that he is wrong. I didn't soften towards him, but I could clearly see the disorder and that was kind of weird. The psychologist proved him narcissistic in every single sentence he spoke. It was awful, but kind of gratifying.
Long story short, the judge refused all direct contact forever... He is allowed to write letters and that is all. Obviously he tries to push it. He has turned up at my parents house a few times, but that is nothing compared to having to see him. It was an incredibly long and painful battle, but I actually did it. I actually proved how dangerous he is and how damaging it would be for Alex to see him.
Anyway, I'm hoping that if anyone did remember me, that they see that it turned out ok and I am stronger for it.
I do have a phobia of relationships and tithead in particular, but my son is safe. Love to all, this board kept me going through the toughest time of my entire life. X
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re: Facing the monster
Good that you have identified him as a monster. He has sure stepped up for the rewards of being a jerk. The slandering was inexcusable but very enlightening. Now you know for sure he is a complete and utter rat or some such ferral beast.
I know there is a LOT of hype about involving the father and not alienating the child against his father and I bought into that myself to the detriment of my child.
Now I would do nothing to facilitate meeting with her dad. It needs great skills in mental akido. For me this meant not being polite, instead being a robot with no detectable feelings that my ex could play on or use to manipulate me. He was a bad guy and a major N. I doubt an N really wants the job of caretaking small children so there has to be another motif.
Obviously someone in administrative power has seen fit to all only guided access to your child. Supervised access is a good idea if this is the case. Two weeks notice is good too. This might be hard for you as you seem like a courteous person.
You must not get triggered by his behaviour when you see him or he will really get his rocks off on this. It is like blood to a vampire and he will say Oh goodeeee I really got to her.
As for the shaking at the thought of him and the panic ...... such telltale signs that he is not a safe person for your child.
You mention that he does creepy things with the child and it would be good to document them. Does he abuse substances?
Otherwise the holy grail of dealing with Ns is no contact. I am not sure how to do this but work on no contact in every way. Hoping for a rabid dog is good, keeps your sense of humour alive. Ns need to be fed drama and attention. So extinguish this in every way. Pray that he meets someone else. Poor next person but it will help you. Any chance you could move away? Change your phone number or anything to make things inconvenient.
Get help. You need to have people who have your back. They are out there in support groups and they know the very special problems you face. Other people don't have a clue and telling them your story makes you vulnerable to be seen as complaining. People generally don't have the slightest clue about narcissism or about he malignant kind of person who slanders the way your ex did. Very, very interesting that what he told the aurthorities was not believed and acted upon.
Focus on your child and don't let the bast...d take your energy, love and attention.
You are awesome. Don't forget it. You deserve respect and so does your child. you had the guts to leave and its not easy but you did it.
Stand tall sweet mother,
Sea storm
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Sorry for above post as I replied to a much earlier post.
I am so happy that you are coping with your ex. You get better and better at it. I read all the posts and some are so funny that I laughed out loud. You sound so powerful now. All those posts were so helpful to anyone going through dealing with coparenting with a narcissist.
Sea
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Cadbury, you are an AMAZON.
I am awed.
Hops
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Cadbury:
I read your first post....
it was oddly clarifying.... I understood everything you said, and didn't doubt a single syllable.
Then I skipped ahead to your update, and wasn't surprised you won your fight. I also wasn't surprised it took over 6 years of fighting and shooting down the lies, and dispelling the chaos to get to a place where your child is safe.
The civil system is slow, and expensive; self perpetuating, and flawed, but.....
if you can afford to get to that final courtroom.....
the facts eventually triumph, IME.
I'm so glad you're doing well, and your Alex is safe:)
Lighter
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Wow Cadbury, what you are going through is so difficult. It sounds like World War Two.
You have more guts than Dick Tracey. You may feel very attacked but you are soldiering on and protecting your child against the odds. Good for you.
My ex was a powerful psychopath and it was difficult to keep my daughter safe. It took a lot. I could not outsmart him because he has no conscience and that makes him sneaky, quick, lethal, effective and unbeatable. Every once in a while I would throw myself out there and with huge energy and fierceness draw a boundary and act like I would rip his heart out if he crossed it. At peril to my life as he is a criminal. This allowed me to keep custody of our child. I doubt he wanted her but he did not want me to have her.
Looking back on it I wish I had disappeared with her and risked everything. She is so precious. Watching her drive off with a stoned and drunk bastard really drove me wild. I ended up looking like the crazy woman calling his new wife and begging her to care for my daughter and not let him drink and drive. She didn't care a rat's ass. If I hadn't been broken I would have run. I was trying to do the right thing and go to university.
Back to you. You are so awesome. Good for you. I am your cheerleader. You go girl.
Lots of love,
Sea storm
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Such great news Cadbury. You never gave up and your experience was confirmed by the psychologists and ultimately the court. That is a major victory. You are indeed very strong. I am so glad for you and your child. He may never know what you have endured to protect and provide for him but he will be better for it. My hat is off to you.
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Hi Cadbury
I re read your posts and was glad to see that your sperm donar shot himself in the foot by being his own lawyer. How excellent for you and for the courts to see what he is. Grandiose. All along it seems that authorities are seeing that he is " off" and sensing that your child's best interests aren't served by contact with your ex.
You are arming yourself with a lot of knowledge about who you are up against.
In my last post I said that I wished I had the courage to take my child and run. That was not fair to you. Unless you have million dollars you can't do that. Just surviving financially is very hard these days. I also didn't mention that my daughter turned out well. She is 36 now and can understand some of what happened and she is out of the spiral of madness. She is strong, confident, funny and working as a professional. so she is not broken by having a narcissist as a father. He tried to take her away from me in a custody battle but the court would not let him. He did get custody but he mainly used his new young wife look after my daughter. He did not want the work and care of being a parent. He just wanted revenge.
Looking back I agree totally with the idea of being a zombie non reactor when there is contact with the ex. Also being very vague about meeting, never solidifying times and dates unless he does. Don't do any work for him in this department. Being very, very slow in responding to his lawyers, court or him. But always maintaining the flat affect. You can share with us how you really feel but don't feed the monster what he wants.... your heart, your feelings, your capacity to care. That just gives him a tee hee hee moment.
You came so far so fast in your posts. You are WOMAN and you can roar. Atta girl.
steadfasty cheering for you,
Sea storm
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Wow, thanks so much everyone!
I reread a lot of my posts from when I first started on this board, more than 9 years ago now! It was incredible to see how much I have changed. I started so differently. I still believed he was right about his ex, that he'd had no choice but to abduct his other son...so much brainwashing. It makes me ill to see now. I was so different after my time with him, I barely recognise myself. I genuinely, thoroughly hope that it shows how bad these N's are. He completely changed how I was as a person. He cut me off from myself. I also hope people can see that it is possible to be free. It has not been easy and I am still scared of him and terrified of that sort of take over ever happening to me again. I have had two more abusive relationships, not as N as tithead, but bad nonetheless. I have also had a lot of detailed, specific therapy with a counsellor who specialised in women like me. I also had to painfully examine what it is about my own reactions that made me such perfect supply. It has been painful and long, but I am hopeful now. My Alex is safe, I am safe and they are the main things.
One day at a time! Much love to you all xx
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For me this is interesting to read as I'm assuming my Mum went through the same things. She wouldn't have him in the house and refused to talk to him unless she absolutely had to. Dad got access one Saturday a fortnight but he made sure he came every saturday, never on time, and probably because he caused more distress for everyone concerned. He did think he had "rights" to me though, however he didn't want to do anything to back it up, if that makes any sense.
My advice would be to get your boundaries clear in your head. Get the time clear how long you want him to be there, say half an hour to an hour, then arrange something with a friend. Tell him this beforehand so he knows how much time he has, then if he's late it's his problem, whatever blame he tries to put on you. Make your boundaries and keep them.
I wish you all the best hon.... big hugs... H&H xx
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If H+H went thro this, and has survived to tell the tale, and also to be able to think clearly, and give good advice, then it would seem theres hope for your little one. The only thing I'd add is that you'd have an added extra in your job as a mother which would be doing what you can to detox for your little boy, by explaining, or whatever it takes. And BTW, I really get it, I dont think your reaction is in any way exaggerated. I beleive that ultimately children choose health, if health is on offer, and your response sounds like a healthy response. Its just it could be a hard time for you witnessing and trying to deal with what this contact will mean your your and your child's life.
river