Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: David P on October 29, 2005, 10:33:56 AM
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This post is ,in part, a response to Dawnings' post regarding her 'SO-guy' problem and partly,in response to some recent conversations that i had with my bud,Joe (remember him) who is married to Jeni.
Firstly to Dawning - My take on her story was that she was struggling with her feelings after her SO guy accused her of being selfish, inventing stories and having 'ugly thoughts' about his continuing relationship with an ExGF. She seemed to be confused about how much she was 'entitled' to feel about that matter and whether her feelings were legitimate and also whether his response was abusive .
Her SO (IMO) came off as harsh, attacking and just plain hostile towards her and her feelings. He discounted and devalued her in a most brutal way by attacking the most vulnerable parts of her - her feelings towards him and their relationship.
The replies,on this forum, to her post unanimously supported her and condemned his behavior and even went as far as to warn her about continuing the relationship with him. I agree with all the replies.
Those of us who were raised by N parents or abusive parents know how this game is played only too well. The N or abuser attacks where it will do most damage. This is driven by a compulsive need to control by demoralizing the other person even if the other person is your own small child. The need to dominate,demoralize and harm others into submission is such a powerful force in these people,and practised so relentlessly that we, as children, probably enter the adult world with a poor sense of entitlement and thoroughly confused about negotiating our way through the myriad obstacles in intimate relationionships and conflict in general.
Bewilderment followed by retreat sums up my view of,and response to,adult conflicts.
One would have thought that we would have had done with 'abuser and controllers'. Instead, as victims of N parents ,we seem to seek them out unintentionally ( or they find us). Then we just go around too often and stay too long in the sad hope that we can 'make' them love us.
Maybe we believe that If only we can find a way to make them see that we are such worthwhile and decent people then surely they will drop the mean act and let their light shine on us. And so guys like me date flimsy egocentric,manipulating 'babes' who see me as an object, and, girls like you date domineering abusive men and never give the 'nice' guys a chance. We get with the ' loonies' and dump the 'lovelies' !!.
I guess that one of the questions that Dawning was asking was this - is she in an abusive relationship or is she experiencing some of the regular difficulties which happen in coupledom. In my view she was emotionally insulted,devalued and abandoned by a man who is planning to marry her. Not a good sign Dawning!
Now let me tell you about someting that my buddie Joe said to me and I invite your comments.
He related a story of his wedding day to Jeni.They were married in a garden ceremony at the reception hall. Jeni had invited about forty of her friends and relatives and Joe invited his family and some close friends - about a dozen in all.
After the wedding ceremony they both mingled with the guests in the garden and chatted for a while and then Joe walked into the reception hall to check on the readiness of the restuarant.He did a quick inspection,organised a few things and talked to the staff and everything looked ready for the party.It was now around 5pm. He walked outside and asked Jeni to come inside and look at the arrangements.
She walked inside with Joe and he said ."It all looks ready -we can start the reception now."
Jeni replied ." We are all having such a nice time outside -they are not ready to come inside yet."
Then she turned away and just walked outside and continued to chat with her guests leaving Joe standing in the hall waiting. He said that he did not know what to do next so he walked out to the carpark,had a smoke and walked back inside the hall,and had some coffee and just waited for another twenty minutes until Jeni decided that she and her friends were ready to party.
He told me this story with a mixture of bewilderment and resentment. He felt that on his weeding day the Jeni had put her relationship with her friends ahead of him and he felt like walking away. I agreed that she had indeed done that too.
Funnily enough, he is still being treated like a stranger and a 'suspect' in their marriage. He is miserable and it seems that the marriage will fail inspite of some three months of counseling.
Enough from me-what do you girls think?(And Mud and Longie)
David in TX
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I am very sorry for your friend. If I could tell him anything from my experience, it would be, don't stay. Accept that you have made a mistake and correct it as quickly as you can. Get out.
At my wedding reception my new H left me standing there and went off to talk to his friends behind the building. It was a harbinger. People kept asking me, where is he? I was embarrassed and had a sinking feeling. That night he drank too much (I'd never seen him drink before) and roared and cursed at me and I spent the night sobbing in the bathroom. I should have gone for an annullment but was ashamed. People had come from other states, how could I?
I stayed with him six years. Within the first year I found out he had lied on legal documents, and lied to me about: who his parents were, what degree he had from what institution, previous relationships, and more. After the first year he suddenly lost interest in sex and wouldn't touch me for five years. I spent the first two of those sleeping in the attic, crying myself to sleep every night.
Now, about 10 years after our divorce, I run into him now and then. He told me (about his new wife, whom he "imported" from Siberia: I worry about Tanya. I say, oh, why? He said, because she can't lie. It was with a straight face and I realized that for him lying was a necessary way of dealing with the world. Dealing with it straight, being honest, was simply not a choice.
He was terribly damaged. I forgive him, and I have healed. But I am so sorry that I gave him those years. Those years were also the second half of my daughter's childhood, which he made much more miserable for her too (that part I have a hard time forgiving myself for).
Anyway, all situations are different and this is likely not exactly what your friend is dealing with. But I do think your gut sense that it will not be good for him to stay in this marriage is right. Is there any hope that he will leave?
Hopalong
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Wait, is this the same Jenni who expects him to hop naked into bed with his teenage stepdaughter? At the time, he was still thinking about convincing Jenni for counselling, that wasn't even a few weeks ago, so how come he has he already had three months of counselling? Why do you want our comments on this one? I am confused.
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David,
I want to tell you that your post helped me more than you can know. You described my relationship with X BF, and my reaction to it, perfectly. I'm in the stage of mourning our relationship where it is extremely difficult not to look for a reason to have some contact. Thanks to your post, you just made that easier. Where I was most vulnerable, he attacked. Disgusting.
What X BF did to me was nothing compared to XH's behavior. He discounted my feelings about his extremely inappropriate and destructive relationship with another woman. He called me every name in the book because I wouldn't accept it, and finally divorced him--controlling, bitchy, paranoid, jealous, hypocritical, abusive, mean, and on and on. Worse, he tried to convince the children that I was at fault for the divorce, keeping in line with his long standing behavior pattern of trying to make me the bad guy in almost every situation. He blamed me for his pornography and strip club use, and even his extramarital sexual encounters--saying I was a rebellious, disobedient wife.
Your post finally cemented for me that I absolutely should not take the behavior of these two men personally. The roots of my willingness to accept their mistreatment, until it became outrageous, stem from my childhood years. I may struggle again with the feeling part of relationshps, but I will never again accept mistreatment.
I agree with Hopalong. At the first sign of narcissism or abuse again, the appropriate response is to get out as quickly as possible. The hope that the person will change, given enough time, is magical thinking. I hope Dawning gets out of that relationship before she marries the guy. He sounded to me, too, like someone who thinks he is "more enlightened" than the rest of the world--thus he's puffed up that X GF seems to be benefitting from his great wisdom. XBF also looked at himself that way. One of his excuses for continuing on the personal sites, despite my distress about it, was that he could "help" some of the women who contacted him with his great advice. UGH!
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Well, we can't really know about them, can we? This is third party talking and neither of those people are here expressing themselves. It all sounds dissapointing and sad. I certainly can't comment except that I hope they both find peace, in or out of the relationship.
If either one of them were here....I'm sure we could show support somehow. If they were both here....well, that would be tough (that doesn't seem to work for some reason)
It's just all sad, really. They could both be right/both be wrong...whose to say?
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To my very wise and thoughtful "son" David,
Apparently Joe decided to ignore the many significant red flags that were being raised during his courtship with Jenni. He is already paying the price for that and it will only get worse. When I hear my friends making all the excuses about why they are still in a relationship with someone who is hurting them emotionally, I want to shake them until their teeth rattle. But they are adults who have to come to those decisions on their own and eventually bear the burden of that decision.
I agree with your assessment of why those of us raised by n's choose to make such poor choices in mates. I'm convinced that good therapy is the best way to get beyond that. It certainly opened my eyes.
Hugs from "mom"
Brigid
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Hi David,
I can't say as I recall the story of Jenni and Joe, but if what Marta says is true it sounds like Jenni oughta be in jail. :?
Men at weddings generally look like they have been hit on the back of the neck with a sock full of wet sand. Women generally act like its not only the greatest day in their lives its the greatest day in everyone's life and everyone needs to realize that. So maybe they were both acting a little goofy. If the situation hasn't changed though then sounds like Joe put his foot in it.
How long have they been married? If its just a few months then maybe Jenni is having a hard time adjusting. Assuming she doesn't have a PD she could change at some point.
Unfortunately, IMO marriage has become a joke. The natural consequence of being able to give up on a marriage as soon as the first bad thing happens is people jump into marriage without caring whether they even know the other person, after all you can just dump them anytime you want. If you enter it with the idea that you're gonna stick it our for life you tend to be a little pickier and those red flags tend to take on a little more significance.
Now obviously there are con men and women who fool people and there are people who turn out to be impossible to live with. Many of their victims are on this board. But for many people marriage is no more serious to them than their first 'steady' boy or girl friend. You give them their class ring and letterman's jacket back and hit the road, and if there are any kids involved tough noogies for them.
Of course none of that helps somebody like Joe who's already stuck, but once you're stuck your choices are limited. Either you amputate and move on, sadder but wiser, or you make the best of a bad situation and live with it. I don't know of any middle way.
That'll be two cents please, although I'm probably overcharging. :P
mud
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Hi David
From the glimpse that you have given us of your friend's lives and their wedding day, it would be incredibly hard to say. However if Marta's post is true, then I am speechless and I think if that was one of my friends I would support them to try and find a solution which would be leaving the relationship.
As someone who recently got married, I was very aware of our guests and how happy they were, asking them if they were enjoying themselves etc etc. I wasn't one of those "I'm the bride and it's my day". However I feel Joe also had a choice, he didn't have to go out to the car park and have a smoke and wait around, he could have gone and chatted as well.
Mud.... from a personal perspective I disagree with you about people jumping into marriage. As my biological parents were divorced, it was a decision I thought very hard about, made sure I lived with my husband previous to the marriage and we've been together 4+ years. I definitely went into this for the long haul and fully expect to faithfully grow old with him.
I do think most people go into marriage seriously, obviously not all, but most. I feel that the problem is that people don't learn to adapt and change enough. I'm not on about abuse here, any abuseful behaviour and the other party should leave, but I'm talking about change through life. I feel that too many people think that because one of the couple has changed, either work, homelife etc then it's ok to walk away. If they communicated and worked through stuff so they were both happy, then it would be better. Marriage isn't happy ever after, it starts with the wedding and then has to be worked at for the remainder of your life.
My two cents.... for what they're worth!
H&H xx
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Hi Hoppy,
Well I was speaking of general trends not universally. Obviously many people take marriage extremely seriously before they jump into it.
My point was the ease, both legally and morally, with which people now abandon their marriage at the first sign of trouble induces many people to approach it more frivolously than they would otherwise.
And I agree completely about people being unwilling to adapt. Thats what people used to be more willing to do. I also agree it does not apply to abuse and the failed marriages that are so typical of this site, where you have emotional and physical abuse.
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Hi MudPuppy,
That was actually H&H you were responding to, but I agree with both of you! And I loved your description of how brides and grooms behave.
H and H, how very lucky your husband is. What a grownup you are.
(One of the things that maddens me most about being a child-of-N wary of my own N-spots is the amount of time I spend grinding my teeth over what I'm doing, and I periodically lift my nose out of my bellybutton and look around and think gee, what are all those busy competent people doing? Oh right, they're grownups.)
Every now and then I wish my inner child would take a nap.
Hopalong
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Sorry H&H and hoppy,
Guess all those h's got me a little more confused than usual. :?
mud
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David my (slightly younger) boy, has Joe taken any of your advice? Does he keep askign for it, but ignoring it and doing his own thing anyway? Maybe you are better off to let him deal with the consequences of his choices and his actions. It can be an unhealthy thing on both sides when someone keeps asking for advice and support, but then turns around and ignores it. Actually, support is great when the person being supported is pushing toward health. However, if they are trapped in an unhealthy cycle it can easily turn into a victim-rescuer relationship (Karpman Triangle). Take care of yourself first, even when helping others.
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Marta , I posted that they had three months of counseling -I meant three weeks. And Yes, It was the same Joe and Jeni who had MOm's teenager in bed.
The reason that I asked for comment was that I saw Joe's predicament as an example of 'emotional disloyalty' which was the subject of this topic. I started the topic because someone suggested that 'emotional loyalty' was a suitable topic ..
I am interested in everyone's opinion on the Joe and Jeni wedding day issue. Was there some emotional disloyalty or not?
Jongtire,
Joe is going OK.He still holds a thread of hope that the marriage can be repaired. Jeni is more likely to bail IMO because she sees marriage as one long date. She holds Joe responsible for her warm and fuzzy feelings.She seems to confuse infatuation with love.
Gail,
Thanks for your kind words and I am glad that I found the words that had meaning for you.
The N behavior that damaged us so deeply is unforgivable or at the least,unforgettable.
However I have learned that a productive and healthy relationship with them is also not possible.
Maybe all that we can do is to erect strong boundaries and guard them fiercely.
Brigid, Hi 'MOM", hope everything is OK back home .Send more money!
Your prodigal 'Son' David P.
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David, dear,
Brigid, Hi 'MOM", hope everything is OK back home .Send more money!
Everything is fine at home. Why is it that I only hear from you when you need money and never just to see how I'm doing?? :lol:
You really could be my son. :shock:
Brigid, aka Mom
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Hi 'MOM' and yes, I am not too good at asking after your wellbeing because I am still self centered and consumed by my own needs and wants and I still just regard you as my Mom!! You just know what to do and stuff and because I am only 27 years old I figure that I can get away with this for a while longer.Maybe till I am 30. Anyways,how are you and did you mail the check?
You loving and devoted son, David.
Oh BTW could you get some new tires on my Mustang coz I will need it in Spring Break. The keys are somewhere in my room.
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The reason that I asked for comment was that I saw Joe's predicament as an example of 'emotional disloyalty' which was the subject of this topic. I started the topic because someone suggested that 'emotional loyalty' was a suitable topic ..
I am interested in everyone's opinion on the Joe and Jeni wedding day issue. Was there some emotional disloyalty or not?
She walked inside with Joe and he said ."It all looks ready -we can start the reception now."
Jeni replied ." We are all having such a nice time outside -they are not ready to come inside yet."
Then she turned away and just walked outside and continued to chat with her guests leaving Joe standing in the hall waiting. He said that he did not know what to do next so he walked out to the carpark,had a smoke and walked back inside the hall,and had some coffee and just waited for another twenty minutes until Jeni decided that she and her friends were ready to party.
He told me this story with a mixture of bewilderment and resentment. He felt that on his weeding day the Jeni had put her relationship with her friends ahead of him and he felt like walking away.
I see two possible scenarios here.
He could have gone with her to talk to her friends. He seemed anti-social, escaping to smoke because she walked away. There appears to be a lack of communication from both parties from the beginning.
Was there a specific time frame for the wedding? With mine there was. There was a schedule as the reception hall was rented for a specific time. There was a sit down buffet dinner. etc. If that was the case then his new wife needed to go with that prearranged schedule and be gracious with her new husband. After all we are to foresake all others and cling to one another. Seemed like she clung to her friends and shirked her relationship with her new husband.
I am sure the wedding was NOT the first time something like this had occurred.
Was it emotional disloyalty? Were any of those friends male? If so, her actions might be considered emotional disloyalty. At least for me it would be because she placed them before her husband.
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Sally, I think that you hit the nail on the head twice in your post above.
Firstly your comment about this kind of thing happening before is exactly right. There were several previous incidences when Jeni turned to others over Joe.
Secondly, I agree that she placed her friends before Joe - on her wedding day!
Joe is not taking all this too well and IMO the marriage will fail soon because of Jeni's habit of making others a greater priority than her new husband. Sad!
David in TX.
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Dear Mr. Self-Absorbed,
You know that mom will always love you, but I think some tough love is in order and you need to wake up and realize that the world does not revolve around you. :x
The check is most definitely not in the mail and get your own damn tires. :lol: BTW, where is the money coming from for spring break? Don't look at me. :shock:
Your loving mother,
Brigid
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Hey Sis,
Since you're cutting David off do you think you could spare a little change for me?
Poor Brigid. :( A self absorbed son and two needy brothers; mudpuppy and longtire.
Wait a minute! If David is Long's son and you're Long's sister then......hey, there is something seriously wrong here.
Either we're all part of that family in 'Deliverance' or this is 'As the World Turns.' :P :shock:
mud
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Hey Mom, that is kinda mean about the tires. Like, you have plenty of time til spring break to get the money and all, so it's not like I am dumping an urgency on you.
And as for the 'Mud' and the "Longie' ,well y'all are older and more adult that I am, so can you get all this family stuff figured out without my involvement.I have real big 'issues' down here and I cannot get into this family stuff right now. So Mom think about the tires again please. The keys might be under the bed, and you can look thru my room but remember that I do stiil own all the other stuff even though I left 6 years ago, Please don't give my stuff to the Goodwill coz I might need it when i get off campus and get my own apartment. I do love you Mom and you are really cool. Much better than by bioMom and I owe you so much coz you turned me around . I was a 12 year old,selfcentered 12 year old who only thought of you are a provider of stuff and now I am 27 and much more mature ,as you can see and hear for yourself. So have a fine day Mom.
Your academically brilliant adopted son who needs a tiny favor.
David.
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Dear Brother Mud and Mr. Smartie Pants,
(I'm not ignoring you Long, but the thought that you are my brother and the father of our wayward son is too disturbing to address, although having a relationship with a much younger man could be interesting)
And as for the 'Mud' and the "Longie' ,well y'all are older and more adult that I am,
David, dear, thinking this was most certainly your first mistake--they might be older, but the adult part may be a stretch--at least where your muddy uncle is concerned. :wink:
Since you're cutting David off do you think you could spare a little change for me?
What do I look like (well you don't know that, but pretend you do), the local bank?? All you gentlemen (and I think I am being kind here), need to get off your lazy behinds, get real jobs and stop looking for handouts.
David, I'm sorry but I needed some extra cash to pay your tuition for the last 10 years, so your room has been rented out. Whatever was under the bed when you left has found its way to the local landfill.
All the best,
Mom
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I like the title *Emotional disloyalty is abandonment.* It is going somwhere in my apartment. I can already see it on the bathroom mirror. How long does it take us ACON's or spouses of N's to get it through out thick skulls?
Thanks for sharing your story, David P. I hope that couple works things out.
Dawning.
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Dawning, thanks for agreeing with me -I love that! As children,we had no power to change the situation that we were in or to leave and go live someplace else. As adults we do.I have a theory that self-absorbed people will emotionally abandon those who are in relationships with them,and that this will happen sooner rather than later
A friend of mine name Mike has been dating a girl called Sue and last Saturday they were with our crowd at a Salsa dance. Sue is a superfically a nice,sweet, but self propelled girl who kinda likes things all her way.Recently Mike has had a few bad breaks and Sue is acting more off-handedly toward him.
Anyways he and Sue were sitting at our able near the dancefloor and Mike stood up to stretch and moved to stand behind Sue and watch the dance action.Sue swiveled around and barked at him,
" Move away, if you stand there nobody will ask me to dance!" He looked shocked and bewildered.
He asked me later if I detected anything wrong or different about Sue and then told me about the incident above. I said that she was insulting and emotionally disloyal and was treating him like a pest. He thought that I was judgemental and asked me what I would do if that happened to me. I said ,"If a women said that to me I would have only one thing to say and that is Goodbye."
I see Sue's behavior as emotional abandonment and probably the first of many further and similar incidenences in the future. Mike is still bewildered but is slowly 'getting it.'( I hope)
David P.
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Hello,
Dawning, I just read your recent 'experience'. I agree with everybody. Congratulations.
David, I am a bit concerned about your example of emotional disloyalty. Is it normal
for children of N to show such disloyalty?
Example:
Say that Jeni was ACON and your friends Jeni and Joe had explicitly agreed before the wedding
to move everybody inside at 5 p.m. and that at 5 p.m., the N parents of Jeni are outside making a
show (say telling a story) -and almost everybody else is bored or hungry. It's time to go inside-.
Then, same story. Joe goes inside, Jeni joins him. They exchange the same words except that
before Jeni's last sentence, Joe says explicitly to Jeni that she promised that they would move
everybody inside at 5 p.m.. Then Jeni goes outside, and sits quietly and listens to her N parent,
do not notice any of the bored people. Then it lasts for one hour or so until the N parent decides
it is time to go inside. Then, after the wedding, Jeni explains that she stayed outside by respect for
her parent.
Say that this is recurrent... Would this be a normal behavior of ACON. Could it be changed?
SurviveAndGrow.
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Dear' Survive and grow' .In respect of jeni and Joe, there was no precis time set down for the guests to move inside. The point of my story was to hilight Jeni's behavior towards Joe after he had inspected the setting inside the hall. Everything was prepared for the party to begin but Jeni walked back to her friends and left Joe spinning his wheels- on his wedding day.
Do you see what she did as emotional disloyalty or abandonment.? He does and it is causing hi pain.
A wedding day is about a man and a woman getting married to each other. Jeni seemed to miss that point and, I am told by Joe that the marriage is in deep trouble because she seems to treat him like he is a barnacle on the side of a boat( the boat is her all important life)
Men and women wreck their marriages in different ways,and I related this staory as an example of how a woman can harm a relationship to the breaking point.
BTW what do you think about Mike and Sue?
David P.
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Hey DP,
Just chiming in on Mike and Sue...
As a very nice girl myself :oops: I could never figure out why guys go for girls like Susie Q here. I mean, some guys seem to like their woman being bitchy to them. It's either the Taming of the Shrew, Playing Hard to Get, or Gee, She Reminds Me So Much of Mom...is she rich and have a large trust fund? Sorry to be cynical but some guys will put up with the worst behavior to marry into the "right" family (in their thick heads). Or they are just used to it.
I would have been embarrassed for Mike had I been sitting at the table with Sue. Ouch. If your friend thinks you are being judgmental, well, didn't he ask for your judgment? Duh.
MP
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Hi David,
Hmm, my fault. I wasn't clear enough. I was concerned about another story... It was
rather a question: 'Is emotional disloyalty common from ACON's?'. I then changed a
little bit the situation of the story of Jeni and Joe (I should have used other names).
In a nutshell, same story but the lady is ACON. The guests outside are not particularly
having a good time (Not that they have a bad time. They would rather move inside.).
A N parent is outside running the show. Maybe knowing that the bride and groom
had agreed to have everybody inside at 5 p.m.. The bride and groom discuss and
remind themselves that they had agreed on the time. Still the bride 'discards' the
groom and goes outside for an hour or so...
OK, I wanted to know if this would be a reason to worry. I got my answer indirectly
in another thread. I do not need an answer on this anymore... And I am glad I
don't (Thanks :-) ).
Now, I would agree that if this happens over and over again (in the case of Jeni and
Joe), it is a reason to worry if they do not manage to discuss this and if it is a problem
for Joe. If it had happened once (even on their wedding day), it would probably not
have been a reason to worry too much. She might not have done it 'on purpose',
women have a different sensibility than men about wedding (with all respect to
everybody), etc...
Concerning Mike and Sue... :-) Mike,... run ! :-) (David you can forward him the
message if you want ;-) )
SurviveAndGrow.
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Hi S&G , thanks for your posts . I think that it is common for SOME ACON,s to imitate their parent's behavior, however it is not universaly seen or compulsory to do so. They have a choice to model themselves on more healthy individuals.
I still would like to pass on to Mike the opinions of the ladies on the Forum about Sue's behavior. He is unsure about his 'feelings' not what he should do. He feels that she 'discarded' him and treated him like a nuisance. Emotional abandonment? Do you guys agree? I agree with him but he is looking for a female opinion.
David P. in TX.
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Hi David,
IMO, Sue treats him like this because she can get away with it. She doesn't respect him and is just hanging around until someone better comes along. She is also on a power trip because the fact that she can treat him like garbage and he still hangs around is a testament to how wonderful she must be.
DD
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Not to be contrarian or anything.....
Had anything else transpired before the incident with Mike and Sue? for example, did he refuse to dance with her? Or flirt with someone else? Had he just been going on about an old girlfriend? What is the context?
Plucky
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Hey girls -Mike has decided to dump Sue .He was not really happy and is looking to move on. Saturday she gets kicked to the kerb. Go Mike!
David P.
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David,
Since you asked for the female opinion, I'll offer some motherly advice. I don't see this as being any different from the guy who treats his female companion so disrespectfully (I happen to think that treating your partner with respect is one of the most important criteria of a good relationship). I agree that she is just playing him until something better comes along and his being willing to take it is just feeding her pathetic ego. I think the book "He's Just Not That Into You" might apply here (replace she's with he's) and this is not the way you treat someone that you are "into."
This is probably one of many red flags that are flying in his relationship that he is choosing to ignore, or at least not use as a reason to end the relationship. It's good that he's questioning it, but only useful if he actually listens to the answers and acts accordingly.
Brigid
PS Saw your post after I wrote this. I'm glad he has made the decision and she will find herself in the gutter on Saturday.
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Hey girls and DP,
Yes, my first response is that, whoa, this is rude! See above post. But then it occurred to me (someone posted to this effect) that maybe this is something that somebody says to someone who just isn't getting the message--that she's not into you, dude. So maybe Mike is a pest if she has already tried to signal her disinterest and he's chosen to ignore it. Maybe HE just can't believe that a girl wouldn't be attracted and flattered by all his attention.
My Ndad's "friend" (I suspect it might have been my dad himself) was on an airplane sitting next to an extremely attractive female passenger. He tried to engage her in conversation and she wasn't playing along. He persisted, and she turned straight at him and jammed her finger in her nose up to her second knuckle to fully signal her disrespect and disinterest. Yes, I wouldn't do this but again I'm not an extremely attractive female who might get tired of being hit on at every turn. My dad's "friend" couldn't understand why she wasn't flattered and happy to have his attention. It just didn't compute. Sheesh.
So DP, it might be a draw here. Mike may have pushed Sue into a position of having to be so incredibly rude in front of witnesses so there is no question that he should back off and he would lose face if he didn't...you, as witness, provided him with the realization that he was making an ass out of himself. You helped them both out.
MP
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Thank you ladies( and Mom) for your take on this. I do not really think that it matters why she acted as she did, what matters is that she did it and disrespect at that level is inexcusable. Mike is not short of female attention,he gets hit on all the time ( he is better placed in that direction than Sue who is rather plain) He can pick and choose so breaking up is not going to see him on the couch with a beer and a pizza come Saturday night.
In the washup I guess that it comes down to Mike and Sue finding a relationship that is right fior them with someone else.
David P.