Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: CeeMee on October 30, 2005, 04:58:55 AM
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I've just finished reading a book recommended by Dr. G, titled "A General Theory of Love."
This book, which is just over 200 pages, pulled together a lot of what I thought and
learned about love and healing over the years
and presented it in the most thoughtful and understandable format.
I can't recommend the book enough. Has anyone else had a chance to read it?
The book outlines three doctors' research on how we learn to love, why many fail to learn, and how to heal from the damage failing to learn causes.
Limbic resonance, regulation and revision during infancy and childhood are said to be responsible, to a great extent, for emotional development and identity; and therefore, those of us who have the misfortune of being parented erratically or not at all, have a greater likelihood of developing emotional deficiencies. Those of us with faulty wiring or chemistry increase those deficiencies even more. The damage resulting from faulty parenting or physiology is evident, on one end of the spectrum, by the number of people today who are unable to find love, and on the other end of the spectrum, by the number of stone cold killers walking amongst us.
The authors make their case for this theory using science and their experience treating many patients. Because so much of this book resonated with my own personal experience, I devoured it page by page, as I read it again and again and again.
What I liked best about the book though was that it offered hope. The authors believe, there is a cure and that cure for the broken hearted is love and connectedness. That is love in the sense of listening, hearing, caring, understanding, and accepting.
What I found most interesting was what they had to say about therapy. The type of therapy is said to be of less or no importance. What matters most is who the therapist is and whether the therapist has learned the lessons of love and relating accurately; whether the therapist maintains a childlike wonder about what's inside the mind of another; and whether the therapist can hear the limbic communication of the patient without being sucked into alignment with it.
My questions for anyone reading this are the following:
Where are these healthy people (who've learned the limbic lessons of love) hanging out, so I can go stand next to them and get some limbic resonance, regulation and revision started?
Or are we all damaged goods now in varying degrees?
Lastly, the doctors identify relatedness, connectedness, and affiliation as absolutely essential for human survival. That is perhaps why so many of us come to this board.
Aside from the occasional disruptive thread on the board, are the patterns of relating that we see here in the text and subtext of the many posts healthy ones?
I've often wondered.
The pattern that I often see is:
someone posts regarding their N (whomever);
the post details the evil character and deeds of the N;
a flurry of replies come in with the obligatory "I'm sorry you're going through this,"
and then on to the business of demonizing the N further in support of the poster.
For some this is a pattern that repeats quite frequently.
Is this the sort of resonance and regulating the doctors had in mind?
Or is it that in our efforts to hear the limbic communication of each other, we get sucked into unhealthy alignments?
CeeMee
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Hi CeeMee
I am pleased that you brought this up as I have wondered about it too.
In answer to some of your questions, yes there are healthy people out there. I have met one in my counsellor. She has really helped me, but the main thing was that I was seeking for healing. I do believe that someone will come along to help when we reach the place where we will be able to move forward. As I have said, I also joined a small support group. Ones for women leaving abusive relationships can be found in a lot of places. The help is out there but takes some time to find I think. My counsellor was able to offer me unconditional positive regard and it has been transforming. I agree that it is not the therapy that counts but the ability to love another person.
Regarding this board, I have decided that what one needs in the early stage, is validation and therefore what happens as you describe is very necessary. But there is a time to move on from that, but before then, we might slip back and need more of it for a while. But in the meantime, we can search for the help with the next step forward and learning how to have hea;thy relationships in real life. And also connect more with those here who have moved forward somewhat.
So I do not see it as unhealthy what happens here.
The book sounds interesting. Is Dr G the full authors name?
I must say how much I have helped during my time here. Thanks all.
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Hi CeeMee,
Thank you very much for such a clear summary of this book. I had sent it to my daughter but now want to read it too. I like your questions: where are the healthy people, and do we conduct ourselves here in a healthy way? I hope Dr. G will comment, but I'm going to guess at the answers:
I think healthy people are those who forgive and who are able to perform service. I am partly healthy, part of the time. I twitch about the word "healthy" just as about "normal" in that some pathologies are healthy responses. When someone develops a craziness to deal with pain, there may be an internal logic in it that makes sense. And stunningly wise things come from some people who have had horrible childhoods and now have a severe diagnosis. So I think it's good not to let that word become a bully in our heads. Unlike life (you're either alive or you're not), healthy is a continuum. I think I like the word resilient more than healthy. Where are the resilient people? How do I spend time with them? (I think I am, here.)
I think damaged is like being a lovely old dog who lost part of an ear in a battle. What's damaging is attaching shame to the notion of being damaged. You were hurt and there's a lasting scar in your emotions or behavior? That's damage. You were raised by gentle strong humorous wise kind parents with good genes to boot and now you're replicating the Waltons in the next generation? That's not damaged. It's also phenomenal good luck. What I mean is we don't get extra credit for being lucky, and likewise we don't get extra condemnation for being unlucky or hurt, so damage needs to be a neutral description.
I think this board is positive for all the reasons Mati says. I think as people evolve they begin to forgive. However, if one is brittle and fragile one still needs one's anger for protection. You can let go of it in little bits as you get stronger but often have to pick it up again. Except in minor ways I was never physically harmed by the Ns in my life so it's not so awfully hard, with increasing age, to forgive them. I am humbled by people who were molested or beaten and still can recognize their abusers' own wounds. I think the culture of violence, the toleration of cruelty, from people's kitchens to wars, produces sociopaths. And some genes may, too.
I think healthy is being able to disengage from toxic people and forgive them while protecting yourself. I think it's also coming to grips with the toxic parts of yourself and forgiving yourself for them. It's like having a Truth and Reconciliation Commission within.
Hopalong
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Mati said:
Regarding this board, I have decided that what one needs in the early stage, is validation and therefore what happens as you describe is very necessary. But there is a time to move on from that, but before then, we might slip back and need more of it for a while. But in the meantime, we can search for the help with the next step forward and learning how to have hea;thy relationships in real life. And also connect more with those here who have moved forward somewhat.
I really agree with this. Certainly, the degree to which someone has been damaged by their abusers, will determine how quickly or completely they can heal from that--no matter how much they may want to find that healing. For the rest of us, however, having the desire to not want to stay in that sad, angry and hurtful place is key to moving away from it, imo. Most of us need some kind of intervention to make that happen--therapy, support groups, meds, whatever will help you turn the corner. Realizing there will be setbacks along the way and finding ways to pick up and get going again without sinking back into depression, is essential to staying on the path to peace and happiness. I have found that helping others who are trying to recover from their situation has helped me to first, see how far I've come, but also to work hard to form relationships with people who would not put me back into that hurtful place.
Ceemee, I would like to read that book--thanks for recommending it. I hope I am becoming one of those people you would like to stand next to.
Brigid
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Yes Mati, Hopalong and Brigid, I agree. There is a time for venting and validation. I know that I could not have gotten to where I am today without it. My therapist and my husband are the two most "loving" people who enabled my recovery. And yes, sometimes I need to go back for more of the same, venting and validating. This board has been great for that.
I love your comment Brigid " I hope I am becoming one of those people you would like to stand next to." Makes me want to stand next to you just for saying it :)
Yes, I want to be the healthiest, most resilient person I can, but I feel I need a live-bodied mentor (preferably one that I don't have to pay $200 an hour). Where are these people? They certainly aren't at work. Yikes no. Or is it that I'm not recognizing the limbically healthy? What should I be looking for, a certain set of behaviors or results; or is it something even more intangible like a feeling?
And seriously, would limbically healthy people want to be around those of us in search of, at the risk of being pulled into misalignment?
Please...anyone with thoughts on this, I'd be interested in hearing them. Thank you Marti, Hopalong and Brigid for your replies. By the way, the Book is recommened on the resources component of this board.
Dr. G. is not the author, but rather the one who suggested it.
"A General Theory of Love" by Thomas Lewis, MD, Fari Amini, MD, Richard Lannon, MD
CeeMee
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"Misalignment." It sounds like a properly professional term (the authors being 3 psychiatrists) that must make great sense in the context of their knowledge and their book.
CeeMee I'm wondering if you might possibly be adopting the lingo here too readily as your own. (A very understandable thing to do when we find a new insight that works...I've done it repeatedly, out of gratitude and enthusiasm for the gift of a writer.) I just worry about new labels being used to bully ourselves. To make us feel walled off from our own competence to heal.
I find you clear and very skillful verbally. "Limbically healthy" and "misalignment" aren't the words you've used before to describe people to yourself, or to describe your inner work, right?
So what words would you have used before you read this book (which I'm still planning to read, sounds very worthwhile)-- to describe your own sense of what feels better/calmer/healthier/saner/resilient in a person?
If you imagine someone it does feel good to stand beside, what might you be noticing about them: in their expression, their voice, their gaze, as much as in what they say? What do you sense when you're with someone from whom you go away feeling more positive and more balanced?
Likewise, what qualities do you notice when the opposite happens, like it did to October in the car Friday...when you're with someone who leaves you feeling sour, off balance or uneasy?
I'm just trying to offer a vote of confidence for your own intuition and intelligence and powers of observation. Let the experts add to your toolkit. Don't give them credit for all of it or let them tell you there's only one language (tool) that can describe the job.
I do not think the "llimbically healthy" need to be protected from exposure to "people like us." People like us have a great deal to offer in this world. There is more to value about a human than constant strength and composure. In our vulnerability and striving, we contribute to the texture and meaning of life as surely, and as valuably, as the unruffled do.
Hopalong
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Hello, CeeMee. I am interested in reading that book.
At the (gasp!) giant sized risk of sounding pleased with myself (which I am, and in no way does that imply superiority):
I believe I am a healthy person. Whether you would want to stand by me,I cannot know.
There a plenty of healthy people here on this board. People who recognize pain and want to know what it is and how to learn from it. This, IMO, is what a healthy person does. Healthy does not really mean "perfect" (which is not even human).
I admit to having a hard time with labels, and I have not read the book. But I had a reasonably healthy childhood and an exceptionally loving family. My path as a soul (not what a scientist would have a comment on, to be sure) has been one that included learning from some unhealthy people and circumstances, many (possibly all) of my own choosing.
Healthy as a label, for me, could mean anywhere from "barely functioning" to an internal peace nearing the disposition of the Dali Lama (now there is someone I would count as a "healthy mentor", but I will learn just as much from my miserable N ex husband, certainly).
On this board, many times I have nothing to say to people that hasn't been said, so I read and then send them love and move on. Many times I find the pain they are in something I cannot bear, or take on, but it isn't good or bad, it just is. I bless it anyway. Some people are stuck in pain, and very comfortably so, and if I can say something I think may help, I will, and if it gets through, great, and if it is misunderstood, or my method is clumsy, or they don't hear me, oh well. It's not my path, so I bless them anyway. I also get stuck, I reach out, I move on. Most of us do. That is health.
Pema Chodron is a very enlightened person, but she writes repeatedly about her personal "failures" to help (me anyway) see how very human and the "same" we all are. I find that healthy and reassuring.
Mostly, though, I sense love here on this board....fellow travelers noticing that each other's paths and pain and joy are indeed our own.
I don't know if the scientists quoted in that book, or even Dr. G would agree, nor do I care.
So where are these "healthy" people? Everywhere. Look in the mirror.
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CeeMee said: <<Yes, I want to be the healthiest, most resilient person I can, but I feel I need a live-bodied mentor (preferably one that I don't have to pay $200 an hour). Where are these people? >>
CeeMee --
It is so interesting that you mentioned this - I was just talking with my therapist about this very issue. I have (for most of my life) yearned for someone who believed in me, who would be honest with me, tough even, but from a position of loving me and seeing my potential -- in otherwords, wanting to help me become the best me they believe I can be. I am sorting through the reasons this is such a powerful desire for me. Basically, I have never had it.
My shrink told me that he has found as a person heals and gains faith in his/herself, this need for a mentor lessons. Until then, if you cannot find a mentor in person, there are many to be found in books. It is not the same, I know. I think for me what I am trying to find is someone to reparent me, to give me what my parents could not. Because of this feeling, it occurred to me when he and I were talking that it would probably be unhealthy to find a mentor when I want one so badly (because I am unlikely to see them clearly and could potentially set myself up to be used/abused). I am not saying it is the same for anyone else
A few years ago, when I was in a better place, another friend told me "if you cannot find a mentor, be a mentor". Perhaps that sound counterintuitive -- but I did it and it felt really good. I found a 16 year old girl who was dealing with a family divorce and depression. We spent time together, hanging out and talking about things. It felt good -- I think it benefitted us both.
<<And seriously, would limbically healthy people want to be around those of us in search of, at the risk of being pulled into misalignment? >>
I think a truly healthy person would not allow us to pull them into misalignment! They would be able to set needed boundaries with us -- perhaps the challenge would be whether or not we could stand the boundaries and or constructive criticism given to us. I know for me, I recognize I have had a hard time taking criticism, and that is something I am really working on (especially on the job). With my T -- there has been a time or two in the last few months where I have called him outside of session because of something that happened. At one point, I found myself concerned that I was misusing this option. I discussed this feeling with him, and it occurred to me (and I said to him) that I should assume that he can set his own boundaries -- I realized I was trying to 'protect' him from 'me' rather than trusting that he is quite able to set a boundary if he felt the need. What an interesting realization, that I do this! Of course, looked at from the other side, I was also protecting ME from him telling me I was abusing his time outside session...
I wonder how many times I my life I have protected myself out of others helping me or giving to me? It never ceases to amaze me how complicated we human beings are!
In case you wonder, I am also a counselor (as is my soon to be exN). Profession is no determiner of health, or of ability to choose wisely. I will say, though, that I am learning about my weaknesses and improving...
I hope this was not too off topic!
Cimm
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Hopalong wrote:
"I'm wondering if you might possibly be adopting the lingo here too readily as your own.
I just worry about new labels being used to bully ourselves. To make us feel walled off from our own competence to heal."
Not to worry. I am simply borrowing (for convenience sake) some of their words to convey what I understood the authors to be saying. I may well be wrong.
Hopalong wrote:
"Misalignment." It sounds like a properly professional term (the authors being 3 psychiatrists)
that must make great sense in the context of their knowledge and their book.
I think "misalignment" was something i may have used. Don't really know if it has any basis in professional psychiatry. Hadn't thought about it when I used it. Just thought it conveyed the thought I had in mind. In fact, I thought they were all perfectly good words to use particularly for anyone who may have already read the book. Never imagined they would carry negative connotations for some. Certianly not my intention.
Please don't get hung up on the choice of words. The point of the post (which may have been lost) was to find out what characterizes emotionally healthy people from your perspective and that of others.
Some folks have stepped up and identified themselves as emotionally healthy. I admire and respect that.
Tell me Hopalong, what does an emotionally healthy (resilient, or whatever terminology you'd like to use) person look or feel like to you?
Hopalong wrote:
"I do not think the "llimbically healthy" need to be protected from exposure to "people like us." People like us have a great deal to offer in this world. There is more to value about a human than constant strength and composure. In our vulnerability and striving, we contribute to the texture and
meaning of life as surely, and as valuably, as the unruffled do."
I couldn't agree with you more on this point and beautifully stated!
CeeMee
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Mum wrote:
"At the (gasp!) giant sized risk of sounding pleased with myself (which I am, and in no way does that imply superiority): I believe I am a healthy person. Whether you would want to stand by me,I cannot know. "
I'm sure I'd want to stand by you Mum but the reality of not being able to, strikes me hard.
So I'm looking for pointers on how others find live bodied, emotionally healthy people like you in the 3D world.
I'd like to have one of the conversations like we just had over the board, in person with someone I can see and hear and feel. That in no way discounts or degrades the value of the many good people on this board. I have learned SOOOOO much from so many here. It is a blessing for sure.
CeeMee
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I have thought that, too, how nice it would be to sit down and talk face to face with the other members of this board.
I've thought a lot about what it means to be an emotionally healthy and safe person. I don't think it necessarily means being free of a mental/emotional illness, because many of us have struggled with depression, PTSD, bi-polar, etc. To me, the most important characteristics of someone who is "safe" are empathy and compassion for others, with a healthy dose of self-respect and self-protection.
I've read that the most prominent characteristic of narcissists is that lack of empathy. They have no ability to put themselves in another person's place. So, if they abuse another, so what? It doesn't touch them. That lack of empathy makes them truly dangerous to other people, because they will hurt and demean them without feeling any sense of real remorse. It's something I am going to be really aware of for the rest of my life. No more thinking if I can prove I'm a good enough person, someone will treat me well. If they treat me badly, I'm not going to have any kind of personal relationship with them.
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This is probably not the whole answer, but for me this is a big part of it. If you can listen, and hear what is said in the silence, then that to me is a sign of emotional health. And I think this is something I can do, although I have other emotional problems. (I can connect with other people easily enough; I find it far more of a challenge to connect with myself. Whatever that is.)
People
Millions of people all over the world, talking.
All saying the same thing.
"Look at me, here I am. See me!"
Thousands of people all over the world, not listening.
Waiting their turn to say
"What about me? Look at me, see me!"
And one in a million. One in ten million,
who says, "What about you? How are you?"
And then listens, for as long as it takes.
Because I am not very good yet at saying
How I am, or who I am, although I try,
And you have to be very patient to hear anything at all.
One in ten million lets you say anythng you like
Even if you prefer to keep quiet,
Because you can't find the words.
Another one I spoke to used to wait
A little while, and then answer the question himself
If I took too long to answer.
So, if the question was too hard,
I would keep quiet, and hold my breath,
Until it went away, and was answered for me.
This time it is different, and you wait patiently
While I work out what to say, and what to do
And you give me time.
Thank you.
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Hi CeeMee,
I used to think what I felt around healthy people was their silence. In recent years, when I learned about N stuff, I realized half of them couldn't get a word in edgewise because of my own anxious N-spot stream of chatter about myself. It's still often a conscious effort for me to shut up and listen. However, I did learn what "active listening" is. After being a veteran of a women's support group where I experienced that graceful, in-the-present empathy, I started 6 other women's support groups when I moved to another state. After they got going (I only led for a few sessions) I then became a member of one. I think the structured time-sharing in these groups helped a lot. It restrained the garrulous, like me, and bolstered the shy. In one I'm in now, a UU church-affiliated one, we use a "talking stick" and take turns. When you've got the stick, nobody interrupts you.
Other qualities that tell me someone might be a healthy person to be around is verbal cues: I don't frequently hear blaming in their speech, they have a sense of humor that's not cynical or sarcastic, they have a clear gaze and I don't see boiling vats of fear or rage in their eyes, and they have a sense of "liveliness". That's not necessarily over-the-top extroversion, but they just "feel" alive in a good way. Like (this may sound stupid) standing next to a healthy, well-treated horse who's confident (and not dominating you, just comfortable in its being).
Jeez. That was odd. Anyway, I think a lot of it is what they say (and don't say) about themselves and other people, their tone of voice, presence of humor, ability to empathize while staying relazed in their body language, and their gaze.
Hopalong
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Wow, these are all such great responses. Each one helps flesh out in my mind and heart what healthy really means. Much of this understanding is already there but hearing it from you all helps reinforce it.
Great post Cimm and right ON topic.
<<I have (for most of my life) yearned for someone who believed in me, who would be honest with me, tough even, but from a position of loving me and seeing my potential -- in otherwords, wanting to help me become the best me they believe I can be.>>
Yes, I understand that desire, especially the tough and honest part. It's so hard to find. I too question why the strong desire.
<<My shrink told me that he has found as a person heals and gains faith in his/herself, this need for a mentor lessons.>>
That has been true for me in regards to my work. The more skilled and confident I become, the less concerned I am about finding someone in the organization who can mentor or lead me. In that respect, I have definitely turned to books for direction. I have a library full of them. Working in government, it isn't easy finding a kindred soul who ascribes to the values and principles espoused in the books.
<<I wonder how many times I my life I have protected myself out of others helping me or giving to me? It never ceases to amaze me how complicated we human beings are!>>
That's a great example of how complex we are (your therapist and boundaries). I could see myself doing that same type of thing but without the awareness. The fact that you are self aware enough to recognize all these feelings and motives strikes me as evidence of
your good health. To some extent, I am self aware but I also realize there is a sea of stuff that I'm not aware of (not even close to). I've relied too much on others (husband and mother) to tell me what I don't know and seemingly can't know. This is perhaps where that great desire to be "mentored' comes from, particularly on the issue of connectedness and relatedness and more particularly in relation to other women.
I hope to hear more about you and your insights Cimm. I think I felt some limbic R&R going on there!
Gail:
Thanks for your input as well. It is especially comforting to hear you affirm what I believe also, those with mental illnesses can be considered healthy in the context of the definition we've developed here on this board. As one who suffers from bi-polar disorder, I believe I am getting closer to "healthy" on the continuum and certainly consider myself a lot healthier than many I see without diagnosis but with little empathy or compassion for others as you say.
October:
I think you probably know what I'm thinking. Thank you for those beautifully poetic thoughts. I think I'll print this out and share it.
Hopalong:
"I used to think what I felt around healthy people was their silence. In recent years, when I learned about N stuff, I realized half of them couldn't get a word in edgewise because of my own anxious N-spot stream of chatter about myself."
Oh boy does that ring a bell. I have been guilty of the same in the past and only really got a handle on it when my anxiety was controlled (with meds). I find that I still do this occassionally on the phone. Without the nonverbal cues to clue me, I get anxious and continue blabbing until the the person on the other end rescues me from myself. I think this is why I have always hated the phone. I never answer it in my house and am known for not returning calls. But I am familiar with "active listening" and do it very well face to face, as I am very interested in other people.
Your list of qualities of healthy people is very helpful and I agree with all of it (even the horse part) !
CeeMee
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CeeMee,
And we are very lucky to have you interested in us!
(I think YOU are a person I'd like to stand beside.)
Hopalong
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interesting topic, ceemee. i’m going to check out the book.
i believe i understand your line of question although i have no clue as to exactly HOW to find these folks and don’t feel i’ve arrived personally to this plane in life yet. i see this message board the way you do, as a great place in beginning and wonderful to revisit/rant
i may agree that it’s not necessarily the healthiest environment at certain points in your emotional development, because the barrage of input can short circuit your own natural defenses. here, i experienced an overwhelmingly supportive initial response quiickly followed by a feeling of okay, “what now?” definitive, effective coping mechanisms and strategies are what i am now in need of working on to combat the hellish parts of my Nlife.
naturally there are those of us who are gregarious and expressive and maybe even quite mentally healthy but for every willing poster, there are probably 60 more readers who while finding some solace in the shared experiences of others, have not the “coping tools” themselves necessary to extricate themselves and soar.
we can’t change N’s, we must learn to cope with whatever “damage” is done to our psyche. and for that an ENORMOUS amount of intestinal fortitude, resilience, and wisdom is required.
Noticeable qualities of such a mentor could include:
they exude a quiet confidence (apparent in the eyes)
they quell the natural urge to identify and isolate the flaws of others, they tend to highlight the positives in life, even if they haven’t had their fair share of them.
never forgetting, they forgive
they maintain well -proportioned balance in life (may experience stress or have tribulations in their life) but are able to balance (offset) them with healthy scenarios like recreation, exercise, healthy eating, cathartic activities like reading, writing, philosophizing ect.
have the outlook that yes, there are bad things, evil things in the world but have
the assurance that they possess the tools to not let “bad things” in life consume or destroy them. it would be quite difficult to “misalign” their limbic health because with another’s because theyare able to empathize without becoming consumed by others problems
their self worth or value is not at all wrapped up in what others think of them
i agree workplace is not exactly best place to meet this person, as the very nature of work demands a certain level of selfishness, oneupsmanship, apathy, and despite what co-workers chat about around the water cooler, you don’t always get to honestly know what other things they do to maintain healthy balance.
i, too, believe health is a continuum. there are ups and downs. the wisest with the most to share have had their healthy doses of downs and what makes them so magnetic is their personal ability to pull themselves up and succeed, (whatever success means) despite the horrible “downs”. one whom you may find to be a virtuous mentor today may have been “hell on wheels” in the past or may turn dour if any of their protective hedges are removed, i.e., security, supportive “family”, physcial health, etc.
in search of this “mentor, ” my entire life, i feel i have met folks along the way who, despite any physical, character, or emotional flaws have a wealth of “good” to share and for all of their trials have learned the salient, universal themes of life in a way that was not destructive to others.
honestly, i find the elderly in general, those in the senecense of thier life as being the most valuable resourse we have in this life. developmentallly speaking, they tend to be less selfish, more socially minded and more introspective. even in those who’ve been abused or damaged” themselves, the wisdom tends to be invaluable. you know when you are in the presence of someone who has a truly well-lived life. you actually feel BETTER and uplifted and inspired upon departure, never worse.
keeping in mind that the query you pose may be one of life’s great mysteries; imo we as human’s tend to be more often flawed than righteous, and we choose, more often than not, to be conservative in the way we go about bringing about positive change in our lives.
is it possible that you are the mentor you crave? as you further develop your ability to self-soothe and mother YOURSELF, you may find that other humans may not possess all the qualities you would require to experience real satisfaction and happiness and stability in your life. i believe that YOU yourself are indeed the most equipped to provide those things for yourself. you may find at that point that suddenly, without really noticing it, you’ve become quite the MENTOR you desire.
best to you CeeMee and i'm sorry i was so long-winded
Tif
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It’s great to hear from you again Tif. I didn’t find your post long winded at all. In fact I re-read it several times. I didn’t want to miss a single word you had to say. You bring up so many interesting points. I planned on responding last nite but it got too late.
Your experience with the board really got me thinking. Many of us members have probably had a similar experience of going through the various stages from excitement at finding the board and spilling our guts to slowly pulling back and waiting to find out what the next step is.
“definitive, effective coping mechanisms and strategies
are what i am now in need of working on to combat the hellish parts of my Nlife.”
we can’t change N’s, we must learn to cope with whatever “damage” is done to our psyche. and for that an ENORMOUS amount of intestinal fortitude, resilience, and wisdom is required.
I consider myself very lucky not to have to deal with a N in my daily life as so many on the board have to (that is with the exception of having to deal with my own N tendencies that slip back every now and then). The closest I’ve come in recent years to having to cope with another N is having to deal with a N co-worker and an enabling boss, which made my life absolutely miserable (but I learned so much from the experience). It is much harder if it’s family and they live with or near you. I think I am beginning to understand what it must be like for you and others. It does sound exhausting.
Thanks for your list of “mentor” qualities. I think I’ll compile all the information I’ve gotten from folks just to see what the whole person looks and feels like.
I’m sending you this list of my suggested strategies for coping with a N (from a N’s perspective) that I sent to another member which may be of interest to you and others.
Set and defend boundaries
Be consistent and avoid sending mixed messages.
Be clear about what you want and don’t want (i.e. don’t take anything from a N that you don’t need or can provide for yourself; don’t let a N do anything for you that you can do for yourself)
Be willing and unafraid to show appreciation and love for the N. (that means looking for and finding the parts that are not broken which may be hard if the focus has always been on the parts that are broken).
Be an example of what “healthy” is like, feels like and acts like
Be honest with yourself and your N (especially yourself because you can’t be honest with others if you aren’t being honest with yourself first)
When the right moment presents itself, talk honestly and openly about your perceptions, feelings and thoughts as they relate to the N and the N’s behaviors.
A loving exchange of information from the polar ends can lead to answers and resolutions. This is something I read about in “A General Theory of Love” and agree with. In fact, I think this is the only way out of the conflict that exists in the world today at every level (individual, family, social, national, international…)
I can’t say this will work with all N, but I know it can work on some.
CeeMee
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Hi everyone,
I'm not sure I have a general theory of love, but I do have a general theory of healthy/unhealthy people. Its pretty simplistic (like me :P), but I think 90% of it boils down to insecurity.
Lack of connection as wee tots with a person's parents seems to guaruntee insecurities later on in life. And some mechanism displays that insecurity differently in different people in all the assorted PDs and neuroses and just plain bizarre behavior of people.
Now some insecure people try to overcome it and learn how to gain the confidence of valuing themselves as they are, not as others see them, as Tiff was pointing out.
Others, Ns for instance, spend a lifetime concealing their insecurities or using others to try and make them feel secure. Still others use drugs or alcohol for relief.
People either face their insecurities and fears and try to overcome them, (these are people on the road to health), or they run away from them, these are most of the people who damage those around them and themselves.
The majority of the healthy people I know I have met in church. Many of them have not always been healthy but have recovered from some pretty terrible experiences.
By the same token a lot of the least healthy people I know I have met in church as well. :P :?
The most secure person I know I met in a dentists office, and I married her. 8) :D
So if you just stop brushing and flossing you're sure to meet a healthy person eventually. Of course they may enjoy the meeting less than you. :( :shock:
mud
PS. Just to be clear, I do floss and brush, I just needed my wisdom teeth chiseled out. :)
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Thanks Ceemee,
I was going to go out and buy the book anyway and your post has lit my fire to do it sooner than later.
A couple of thoughts....
I agree about the N-bashing to some extent but I find it a little bit suspect. I am becoming more and more curious about my part in the equation and wonder how much has to do with the whole 'Love Addiction' scenario. I absolutely bridle at the neat labelling that goes into the whole addict thing but there is useful info in Pia Melody's book about the classic patterns of the cycle ... could be the N is in the Love avoidant position . Anyway I'm getting off the point which is, I have felt a sense of comradeship and relief looking at the posts on this board about the terrible things that N's do but we are all complex beings and I wonder about the N tendencies in myself.
I went to a workshop recently on Abandonment and had huge empathy for everyone in the group who told their tales of woe , many of whom had N people as their abandoners , but the nagging feeling persisted that all of us in the room were sucked into the cycle of dramatic intensity or somehow trying to recapitualte some earlier experience and everyone sounded like a victim... some of them truly were treated just hideously or had hideous luck ( or 'genius' for finding people to treat them so badly or up at die/leave/etc at the most inopportune time).
I have no doubt that there are perfectly good and innocent people who have had the great misfortune to be steamrollered and abused by N's and that having a childhood where one was not seen or heard is the perfect set-up ( or some biochemical vulnerability)
I juts know for myself that I have chosen to participate in a painful and crazymaking relationship with a man who has all but been impossible to please. And that is my doing.
However, when I look back and read his notes and emails I know there is valuable stuff in what he was telling me however upsetting his grandiosity was. Even as he was screamign at me, a small voice inside of me was telling me , 'listen to what he is saying'.
So while I would still love to work out my relationship with him ( and I don't know if this will ever be possible because he does still do typical N things like; not listen to me, not empathise, stay focussed on his point of view, need to constantly be right, has little or no ability to control his irritation) I know I did not help matters by being needy ( and increasingly needy everytime I thought he would leave-= which was every other day) and leaving him when I was pregnant ( after he screamed and raged for about two weeks) and not going through with the pregnancy to my everylasting regret. ( I was worried he would treat the child that way and/or undermine me as a mother or just be impossible). BUT i did not give us the benefit of getting counselling because I thought he would never own his behaviour or listen to what anyone else had to say ( few people are as smart as he is). I see now that we were both sure the other person could see/or feel them and I guess I was so vulnerable I did feel like a victim. So these last two years since have been excruciating for me since I was ecstatic to be pregnant and gave up a lifetime dream and dont know if I can conceive again. (Plus he just got someone else pregnant which was my worst nightmare .. in case I was wrong about him and he tunred out to be a loving father).
Finally, I am impressed by the great intelligience of those communicating on these pages. However, to quote someone or other, in some ways I agree that understanding is the booby prize. The hoped for result, at least in my case, is an ability to take in the good,
find a way of relating which is not heart attack inducing and to find peace inside myself and hopefully with a partner. For me that means staying out of denial, clearing my vision so I can really see what is coming up for me ( sooo many defences and projections) and so, ultimately I can see other people as they really are. Then they feel seen and heard too. And that self involvment and reactivity that I have, though not ill intentioned is the narcissism I have to work with in myself.
My 'N' person, when I asked him what he thought love was said, "it is having the guts to show the other person who you really are so they can make an informed choice". Maybe he wasn't so nutty after all. He was NOT about you tell me your wound and I tell you mine, we can then coddle in a pseudo-intimate way and nobody has to change. I still wonder what might have happened if I had not 'snapped" and we had got into therapy together.
Thanks... and I welcome any thoughts ( and mean no disrespect to anyone working on their N inssues).
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My first thought was that someone who would scream and rage at a pregnant woman for 2 weeks is probably not someone who is a very good person, IMHO. I wonder about his internal self-talk that would allow him to justify treating you that way. Then he goes out and gets someone else pregnant, which seems extremely irresponsible.
I'm very sorry for the loss of your baby. The stress you were under, both physical and emotional, would have made it really hard for you to think through all the ramifications. I hope you have someone in your life that can help you grieve.
Gail
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Thanks Gail...
( and I hope Ceemee isn't annoyed that I brought up stuff that diverted form his thread). To be fair, he wasn't ragin about nothing... he was freaking out about being overworked and worrying about money and the baby coming . We had a training going on at our house plus he was seeing regular clients and he had very little time for anything let alone to spend time with me... He did not share his concerns with me- or if he asked for space I thought I gave him enough staying away several nights .Iit would have helped if he had lessened his workload and trusted we'd be ok ( I actually had some money which he knew). When we did find time he would start complaining about how I was always coming towards him and then he'd spend the next two or three or four hours getting madder and madder instead of just taking a time out and going for a walk with me.. neither of us knew how to share appropriately which is not to excuse him his inability to manage his anger/anxiety . Neither of us could. I'm sure once the dust settles fully ( it's two years later) I will see almost all of the picture and then I might know how much he was actually an N and how two people could get caught in such a terrible dynamic. I'm still not sure how I survived. I no longer want to die everyday which is a huge improvement.
Anyway, juts ordered a General Theory on Amazon for $ 8.77.
Love to all on this board.... what an incredible bunch.
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What a cool thread! 8) This one really got my cells a workin' :shock:.....thanks for starting it Ceemee. I agree with so much of what's been said already and want to add:
When I think of what healthy means to me, I have to admit first ......it's a rolling scale. Like being a perfect human, I don't think there is such a thing as perfect health. But if I try to use just one word to describe what a basically healthy individual is, my choice word is.......content.
It just seems to me from past experience (how I personally felt when I thought I was as close to healthy as possible for me...yep.....I've been there :shock:), and from being around some people who I view as "basically healthy"......it's that general feeling/expression of contentedness (is that a word?) that comes through. If I'm basically content within my own thoughts, my feelings and my body feels comfortable.....then I consider myself basically healthy. Going by my own definition then.......I know I've been healthier...so I don't know if you'ld want to stand beside me. On the other hand, I may be closer to basic health than a lot of people, so standing beside me might not be a terrible idea :D. That isn't much help is it? :roll:
IMO physical health, mental health and emotional health..........are all separate and yet connected. Eg. If I'm phyically ill (say I have a cold), it can take away from my mental health (I might think waaaaay more negative thoughts than usual), and my emotional health might be outta wack too (I might feel angry, sad, anxious, frustrated, etc...certainly not content). Once the cold is gone, if I'm generally thinking good, positive thoughts, if I feel fairly glad about life, content inside emotionally, and if I'm comfortable physically......I might say......I'm basically healthy again.
Pretty well any disruption in one of these areas of health....will likely disrupt the rest. So that means ......if a person's mental health is off (even just by thinking in ways that they don't consider healthy), that can reflect on their emotional and even physical health. Being basically healthy includes all three areas, I think and they can and often are at different levels on the healthy scale, at any given time, but can be generally within the same range of......content/comfort. This isn't to say that one must always think lovely thoughts, feel wonderful feelings, or be completely enthused about our bodies. But generally.....much of the time....if we are comfortable and content with what we think and how we feel...we will be enjoying basic health, imo.
Where to find such individuals? I'm not sure there is a specific place or places where basically healthy people hang out. My best guess is that being basically healthy attracts other basically healthy people...so it's a good thing to strive to be basically healthy. Maybe we have to feel fairly content in order to be better judges of what that means and to be better at finding it in others? I do think it's a good idea to seek out and keep company with others who I admire for their attitude, apptitude for the positives in life and liveliness. Unfortunately, some people are good at faking all that. :twisted:
It just seems certain that we are not healthy when we think about nasty stuff, feel upset and have aches and pains and I can't see how that would attract the basically healthy to us, or appeal to their desire to hang out with us. Maybe the trick is .......it takes one to know one......kinda thingy???
As to the theory that being connected to others/feeling loved is the cure for our broken hearts......
That makes a lot of sense to me but I wouldn't prescribe that for all unhealthy people. I think first....before we will really experience all that ......we have to get connected and feel love for ourselves. We almost have to give up the hope that some other person will come along and really envelope us in deep love and connect emotionally with us. That could happen......don't get me wrong.......but we might end up very disappointed if we rely on that happening, or if we wait for that to happen. Also, I really believe we need to feel that love and connectedness from something bigger than us.
For me....I feel lucky to believe I already have those things from God. But if one does not have that belief......I think it may be important to find it through some other higher power....be it mother nature or whatnot. If we feel a part of and connected to the world and the universe.......it seems easier to live in harmony with ourselves and others. There is still a lot of work involved....in striving to love and connect with people, because we are human and not able to act perfectly at all times, but I think it's gotta be easier for those who already feel they belong in the world and are a part of it all to get along with, share, connect and love other people. 8)
Maybe feeling disconnected and unloved is the biggest sign of unhealthiness? :shock: So the theory put forth by these docs seems logical to me....that fixing that will help us move toward basic health. We're most certainly not healthy with broken hearts....and love is a powerful thing. :mrgreen:
((((((((((((((((((((((((hugs to all))))))))))))))))))))))))))
:D Sela
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Highestgood,
This must be so painful for you. You are brave to open up and share it. My heart goes out to you. I admire your honesty and believe that it will ultimately bring you the results you seek. Seems to me you have quite a bit of understanding already not just of self but also of the complexity of this man you loved. It may be a booby prize, but imo, it's the way to the grand prize. I wish you the best in love and hope that one day your dream of bearing a child that will have two loving parents will also be realized.
Have you seen a therapist to discuss any of this that you've been through?
One point that I wasn't really clear on was what he meant by saying love is "having the guts to show the other person who you really are so they can make an informed choice." This sounds a lot like the classic N mindset of ...this is who I am and you can either accept it or not because I'm not going to change who I am. I'd much rather like to hear...this is how I am and I'm working to be better.
Let me know what you think of the book.
Mud
Thanks for the reply Mud. I'll add "secure" to my list of characteristics that define a healthy person. I agree that both secure and insecure can be found in the church. I think probably more insecure flock to the church in search of the security they lack. The spiritual and emotional bonds/attachments that the church and its members provide can be very healing.
Sela
Thanks for those thoughts on physical, mental and emotional, contentedness. I'll put them on the list too.
I was just kidding about trying to find a hangout :) But it's interesting that you say it takes one to know one. In my experience, that is generally true. Birds of a feather flock together. But I hold out hope that the goodness in healthy people will motivate them to want to look for the good hidden or not so obvious in the less healthy.
Sela wrote "...we have to get connected and feel love for ourselves first."
I agree that self love and connecting with oneself is important. In Theory of Love though, they say the first step to emotional healing is being known by some other person first.
"Those who succeed in revealing themselves to another find the dimness receding from their own visions of self." (from the book)
Once revealed, I can know who I am and begin to love my newly revealed self. I don't say this just because the doctors wrote it in their book but because this was exactly my own experience. It wasn't until I was able to connect with my therapist and through the understanding ear of my husband that I came to know who I really was and began the healing process. (When I speak of love and connectedness, I don't mean it in the sense of romantic love but rather the loving acts of listening, understanding, and wanting to discover another).
Connectedness with God/higher power and the universe is important too, but I'm wondering if to get to that place where one is truly connected to God and the universe and feeling that one belongs, mustn't one be "loved" by some representative of God here on earth first. If not a parent, an authentic Christian perhaps, who takes the hand of this disconnected person and walks him (not into the church collection box but) into the embrace of understanding, acceptance and unconditional "love." Getting back to what Mud said earlier about unhealthy people being in the church, I would venture a guess that these are the folks who connect directly with God and bypass the people. IMO this usually results in judgmental, self-righteous so-called Christians not authentic ones and definitely of the unhealthy sort.
I only use Christian as an example. That could easily be Muslim, Buddhist, Jew or some other loving/healthy human being.
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Hi Ceemee,
Gee... thanks for your support. I am going to see a therapist tomorrow so hopefully i can move through this excruciating place- made moreso because now it appears that the new person my N has been seeing ( for all of 2 months) is thinking about keeping the baby ( she got pregnant less than a month after getting together with him, a week after he told me he knew he should probably end it because she wants money etc and he's not into it). N tells me how they don't argue and she is able to hear him without becoming defensive and he can finally express himself with someone.
Great... and it's ok for her to be greedy and seflish and what have you because she admits it without becoming defensive like yours truly. Ouch .They are in Hawaii where we were going to be living together... can it be more painful, not to be a victim, well yes. I was trying to get pregnant again probably because I have been half out of my mind with grief and stuck in some crazy repetition compulsion for the last 1 and a half years ( I'm now 45) and she gets pregnant first time they go to bed at 33. I'm trying to remind myself that the universe is neutral and not trying to punish me and that if I think it is punishing me it is just a projection of my guilt. He will go along with her decision either way- and it changes daily- and I realise I should not be into their business now since it only concerns me in that it brings up feelings, but he is also quick to point out they they are able to talk through ideas and options and discuss things where we could not. Triple ouch. So I'm resigning myself to my powerlessness and my irrational desire to have another chance and make it all ok. Quickly waning, as I realise I am not that important in his life anymore and he has a lot more to deal with - rightly so.
I know everyone who says I should be thanking my lucky stars to be rid of him means well but I can't seem thus far to get my head around it.
And Yes, he pretty much had the attitude, Look this is how I am and I'm not going to change and I told you who i was when we got involved. But he likes to say he is working everyday on his bullshit and busting himself ( mmm). What is different is that while he's complained deeply about every women he's been with he says she is different and so I look and feel like the bad guy who doesn't know how to communicate and be in relationship where he does. I also project dubiousness about the reality of their 'knowing' each other and how real it is but it is possible that people meet and click immediately. I wasn't exctaly hoping that their relationship would fail but I was relieved when he told me last week that they both knew having the baby was not right and she was going to go ahead and end it.
I'm so reluctant to let go completely and I'll work on this in therapy. I don't know why he has such a hold on me. It seems all he wanted me to do was be real and own my bullshit with a mininum of fuss ( and yes he has always been very foccussed on my bullshit which has always bothered me.. he's rants about how 99/9% of the world lies cheats and steals and he tries everyday to take nothing - he has a martyr complex all he does is give - and he is very convincing. He is also not hugely freaked out by tyhe recent events because he believes he lives so much in his truth and intregrity that he is protected from toxicity ( me ? her? the wrong situation) and if he has to surrender his life to supporting her financially he will ( a recipe for diaster I'd say since he has a hostory of building resentments). But it is his life. Really I think I have lost my mind.... and myself.
He also accused me of not loving him or not feeling loved ( and feeling used which was deeply upsetting for me to hear) because I could not listen to him or hear him which he then used to justify why he got so angry with me and was , he says, the only ting he ever wanted. He truly thinks he has no ego. But rather than continuing to thrash out my confusion I do see that I am responsible for me and all that matters is working on my stuff. The thing is.. what of my stuff - or that he relfected back to me - is really my stuff.. since I tend to assume guilt and feel it's all true.
PS. She's 15 years younger than he is and is able to say things like " Bob, I'm just not where you are at yet". Either it's true, she's naive, she's a manipulator or she's smarter than me. By far.
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Highestgood,
The best news is that you start therapy right away. With any luck, you'll get a good one and be able to sort through all of these thoughts and emotions. This is precisely how I managed through my pain. Talking it out and finding out what parts of the complicated story of my life were real and which weren't. Ultimately, I got to decide which were my issues and which were not. As I stabilized this became a much less daunting task. It is most difficult for those who don't acknowledge their role in the drama at all, but I don't see that in your case as you've described it. I understand that overwhelming reluctance to let go and that feeling of complete helplessness and powerlessness. I've been there and back on more than one occasion. It's like a free fall. You know what awaits you but you haven't the strength to fight that enormous gravitational pull that takes you down, down, down.
I think it's a normal reaction after breaking up (just read some of the posts of others in very similar situations), and we've all experienced it at some point in life. I know I have and not that long ago. It was just about the time I found this board that I was going through a bad situation, and through communication with others, I regained balance and was able to pull the string that released my parachute. At the time, I was involved in some very dangerous and destructive behaviors. I knew this but couldn't find the strength to stop myself. Honestly, the communications through this board stabilized me and I began to feel my strength return.
It's my sincerest hope that you will stay and join our communications and that one day you'll be writing a Newby on the board about a distant memory of your recovery from a broken heart. Good luck with your therapist tomorrow. Let us know how it goes.
Best thoughts,
CeeMee
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Hello HG and all,
Just catching up. This is a great thread about love etc. but wanted to respond to HG:
Ns see the weak and needy as their biggest competitors. This includes children and frail seniors. Some are smart enough to know this is not a socially acceptable attitude and mask it by attaining deflected supply through these centers of attention. But many come right out and tell you what a drain kids and old people are. They take all the time, money and attention away from Ns.
So I say to you, just wait until the new GF's baby is born and watch the show. It is stressful anyway for two "healthy" people who wanted and planned for the baby together to cope with such an awesome new responsibility. I believe your X is snowing you big time. JMO. 8)
I'm glad you are seeking therapy, because you cannot go through this by comparing yourself to another unhealthy situation. Get yourself squared away first before you seek to add to your demands with a new life of a baby. It sounds like you are perhaps still "hooked" by him and his opinions and perspective. Ask yourself why you are still pulled in by his comments. What does it make you want to blurt out? When you blurt, you will learn something about yourself.
I learned some significant stuff when I blurted "don't think less of me because I need something!" :shock: Your blurts might be different. But they will tell you something really true. Just blurt in a safe place!
Would like to contribute on the "love" part of this thread, just to say, you know you are around a healthy person when you feel it's alright to be yourself, not holding anything in. The ability and willingness to learn from mistakes is a big indicator for me. Some people are "coachable" and the ones that aren't I try to avoid like the plague.
MP
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Can't thank you enough you guys. I was hugely activated when I wrote that last post and wanted to thank you for the great suggestions and support; especially about not comparing my situation to another unhealthy situation. I got sucked into that awful desperation of a woman longing to bear a child - and teetering on the edge of perimenopause - who would almost forgo reason and common sense because of pure primal desire. I'm sure many women out there who have not been able to have children, or waited too long or didnt meet the right person know what I am talking about. I'm juts beginning to accept the, for me, very difficult reality that I may not be able to create a child with a loving partner biologically.
Ironically, got a call last night and it seems both of them realise that it's not right to go ahead with the baby because they have too many differences ( and, naturally, she doesn't appreciate him enough !!!). Funny to hear him levelling the same criticisms against her as he did me - and this was supposed to be such an incredible woman. Anyway it's been a wakeup call.
I hope soon to not be sharing and thinking about him so much and to get on with my life. I am feeling much better already (perhaps because I have examined my painful projection of how everything was going to be so much better for them, hence I was the problem and maybe, just maybe, he wasn't an N after all). But reality has put paid to that. Unless she changes her mind again.
Again thank you all...
Sometimes after going through a particularly rough chapter of my life I imagine all the players and cast and crew in that particular episode to be sitting around having drinks and chatting ; everyone cordial and friendly and laughing about the nutty/tragic/crazy sitatuations that just unfolded all for the education of all involved. The arch enemy and the rival; the underdog and the victim; all of us remarking on what a drama it was and everyone thanking each other for playing their part all for the greater good .
Thanks again.
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hg, what you wrote seemed like raw pain :(, which seems to be gone now (very glad about that!) but this jumped out at me:
99/9% of the world lies cheats and steals and he tries everyday to take nothing - he has a martyr complex all he does is give - and he is very convincing. He is also not hugely freaked out by the recent events because he believes he lives so much in his truth and intregrity that he is protected from toxicity....
..... plus he was seeing regular clients and he had very little time for anything let alone to spend time with me... He did not share his concerns with me- or if he asked for space I thought I gave him enough staying away several nights...
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....I wonder why he needed....space? :? Why he had no time to spend with you? :? Why he didn't share with you? :? Maybe he's not so honest......maybe he was doing a little secret service? :shock: :x
He certainly stole from you..........he stole your dreams and then shook them in your face, like candy infront of a baby. He took your devotion and flung it away, like useless garbage. And he criticised you enough to cause you to believe some of his bs...enough to question your own thinking....but not enough to squash it completely! Oh no! You got away! :mrgreen: I'm so glad!! I don't like the way this guy treated you. Not one bit!
.... tells me how they don't argue and she is able to hear him without becoming defensive and he can finally express himself with someone.
Bet he said that about you too, in the beginning. It's only been a couple of months, for crying out loud, he can keep things rosey for a little while, my guess.
....both of them realise that it's not right to go ahead with the baby because they have too many differences ( and, naturally, she doesn't appreciate him enough !!!). Funny to hear him levelling the same criticisms against her as he did me ...
I BET they have differences....maybe he's duped her too?? I wonder who keeps changing their mind? I dont' find it funny that he's tooting the same horn on her as you.........I find it very toxic N behaviour. :twisted:
....he's complained deeply about every women he's been with he says she is different ...
I bet he said the same thing about you to his previous flame. Let's face it......we're all different. But is anyone different enough to take in all his bs, digest it, worship it and devote their entire being to it? That's really what I bet he's looking for.....honourable non-toxic martyr that he is (NOT! :twisted: :twisted: :!:).
...I asked him what he thought love was said, "it is having the guts to show the other person who you really are so they can make an informed choice".
Gag me with a spoon! What a twisted version this is! It's more like........having the empathy to accept the other person for who they are.....It's not all about him eh? He has no clue ( :roll:)
I'm sorry hg, I'm with those people who are cheering for your good luck in not having married this one, and escaping having conceived children of his (this is not the kind of father you want for your child do you???). I believe you can do much, much better!! I know it hurts really bad to lose this relationship but you are gaining much more than you are aware of, at this point. I think you will come to realize that soon. I really do.
Please do not give up hope of finding that special someone and please......convince yourself that you deserve to be treated with respect and honour......not like some client/congregation member/hired help/discarable servant. I hope you will decide not to take his calls, not to read his emails, not to listen to his junk......any more. It won't be easy but it will be a relief....you'll see........I bet.
((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((hg)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Sela
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Hello HG,
Wow, Sela. Great post-game analysis! Some guys know what to say and that's all it is--talk. Like having index cards in their shirt pocket, thinking, hmmm, which line will work on this one? I am disgusted that this guy is leaving a line of terminated pregnancies in his wake...moral arguments aside, just...ew. :x
If you were an employer (I know, this is kind of a tacky analogy), but if you were interviewing people for the opening of lifelong companion, sure you would have an interview, or lots of interviews. And perhaps you would do a reference check. But something H and I have learned is to observe the track record of past accomplishments vs. listening to what people say they are going to do.
My H also teamed up with a self-portrayed "victim" of an ex-business partner. After six months (the light bulb went off after only 3 months), my H became an ex-business partner also. This guy lied like a creepy player at a dark bar, saying whatever H wanted to hear in order to take advantage of what my H had already built for himself. After they "lived together" H got a glimpse of the real deal and bounced him out on his bee-hind. Mr. Victim sang his same sorry song for another friend. My H worried that his reputation as nice guy would be trashed and I told him he couldn't worry about it because this guy's true parasitical colors show up quicker than a Polaroid. Guess what? The new partnership dissolved after six months also. It was so validating for my H, you can't believe.
It's too bad, but some people are just bloodsuckers looking for host animals. MP
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Thanks MP.
....this guy's true parasitical colors show up quicker than a Polaroid.
Applies in both cases, I think.
It's too bad, but some people are just bloodsuckers looking for host animals.
And if you've ever had a leach on your ankle, you'll know you can't tell it's there. It can suck away for a long time before you get this creepy feeling something isn't right. You reach down and.......
..........eeeeeeeeeeoooooooow!!! The thing has worked it's way in deep and has to be salted or burnt out! Yanking it out leaves you bleeding and bleeding and it could break, part of it staying behind, a mean infection follows. All the while that bit stays there festering. Not pretty at all.
Yep. I like your analysis too. Very appropriate. I hope hg has some salt handy. And some antiseptic. It's the least painful method.
Pretend I'm your loving friend, hg, and believe me when I say: I don't like the way he's latched on and drained you. Please stay close to those who are relieved he's away from you. You may not see what they see right now and that's ok. I bet you will.
Sela
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My shrink told me that he has found as a person heals and gains faith in his/herself, this need for a mentor lessons. Until then, if you cannot find a mentor in person, there are many to be found in books. It is not the same, I know. I think for me what I am trying to find is someone to reparent me, to give me what my parents could not. Because of this feeling, it occurred to me when he and I were talking that it would probably be unhealthy to find a mentor when I want one so badly (because I am unlikely to see them clearly and could potentially set myself up to be used/abused). I am not saying it is the same for anyone else
Cimm
I find this has been true for me. When I first began my journey I looked for a mentor. I wanted someone who had been through what I had to guide and support me through my journey. I found that there wasn't anyone. Now I am that mentor to myself. I am reparenting me and that is what my t says is healthy.
I did need a t who would listen to me, support me, and guide me when needed. However I found that I needed only one who would listen and support me. I found my own way and become my own guide.
One t I had in another state told me that all anyone who was abused needs is someone who will listen to them and truly hear and believe what they are saying.
BTW I just bought the book along with an Adult Child's Guide to What is Normal and Toxic Parents.
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Hi again,
Well I have just consumed 'A General Theory of Love" and it has confirmed so much of what I have intuitively felt about bonding, attachment, the emptiness of placing career achievement over connection and many other things.
I have to say that reading the book brought up a lot of stuff for me emotionally especially since I longed to nurture a child ( I intuitively knew that sleeping with baby was the right choice) and,as with my nephews, have found it delightful and absolutelyy natural to be curious about their world, enter into it with them, really listen to what they are saying etc. I watch my sister trying to control them over matters that are not particularly important and see the pointlessness, counterproductiveness of control for control's sake.
A child wants to know why they should do something, they need to feel why it make sense not juts hearing a tired and intense adult telling them they should do something because they are being told to. ( I know I know kids can absolutely drive you to the brink of reason but there are ways to not make things worse: ie self-management)
I couldn't wait to gaze into the eyes of my precious child and had committed to really listening seeing and letting my child speak long before I knew of Dr Grossman and this board and even knew about Narcissicm because I have know firsthand how it felt to feel unseen, dismissed, not seen, not felt, not marveled in by my own family ( except my mother who despite her super distractedness managed to give me some good love despite its becoming somewhat enmeshed). Unfortunately that baby did not make it. I hope for another. And I do baulk when every other person tells me to mother myself.... yes that's all well and good but it is not the same especially when you know about needing to resonate with another being and you have a history of aloneness.
This book has put into words everythign I have felt about the primal drives that keep some of us wanting to stay attached to people who may not be good for us ( my N that I have been writing about) because at least he was a connection however unhealthy- and probably similar to my family of origin stuff.. The 'addictive' pull to stay connected to someone unhealthy is extremely hard to unravel when the
alternative is returning to the void of loneliness ( if like me you are one of those insecurely attached persons who still longs to bind primarily with one person and scans hypervigilantly for that person in your field.. I'm working on it).
I really related to those little rhesus monkeys who were separated from their mothers and at first shrieked in alarm and then became despondent and then fell into deep despair.
IN my particular history the N factor was there for sure but I wonder if many of you out there also suffered 'accidents' of abandonment too.
I was separated from my mother at birth. She heamorrhaged just after she delivered me then we were separated for a week since she developed a fever. So no contact was permitted. My N grandmother made a scene in the hospital that created a lot of stress between my mother and father and she went on to be a very toxic, influence in our family ( Her N mother had rejected her).
My father was a doctor at the hospital and worked very long stressful hours. I was placed in a downstairs bedroom away from the rest of the family (big sister, Mom and Dad slept upstairs) and was well aware of this from a very early age. I felt vulnerable being alone downstairs and I know I cried and cried and cried because Dad ( who was exhausted after long shifts) told me later he wanted to "strangle" me because I cried so much. (He said this affectionately and I know how he must have felt. sleep deprivation is the pitts, but it still made me wonder what a hypersensitive infant might pick up)
Maybe if they hadn't kept an already insecure infant so isolated, I wouldn't have cried so much. The decision to keep me downstairs was also made so my big sister would not be upset or displaced.I can see why they made that decision however, this set up a
lifelong dynamic where her need seemed to be put above mine ( and she has a divaesque personality as a result much as I want to love her).
So I already had a predisposition to be insecure and it took me a while to settle down and think ok, no big surprises. However , unfortunately I got very sick a few times when my parents were away and then when I was starting to get very selfconscious at around 9/10 my grandmother, whose toxic anxiety and snobbishness and overcompensation was never confronted, told me one day, for no real reason that I was " a parasite who didn't deserve" my mother. Alas, I didn't go to my mother and report this because I was so mortified and thought it must be true. ( and now I see that my own grandmother was jealous of the love my mother was giving to me).
The denial and inability to be real in my family bred in me a kind of hopelessness. .Well Dad was never there always working and when he did come home he demanded affection which, when I wouldn't respond the way he wanted, caused him to accuse me angrilyy of "always rejecting him" whereupon he'd stomp out of the room, I'd feel horribly guilty and my mother would say, now dear can't you be a little nicer to your father.
It wasn't that I wasn't being nice it's that I felt invaded the way he wanted to hug me and also I was really only attached to my mother and found him almost an alien being, so little time did we spend with each other. I feel sad about it now but at the time I did not want his
sloppy kisses and overwhelming hugs and his highly irritating tickles which actually overstimulated my already hyperalert nervous system. I can't recall once my Dad quietly approaching me and asking if it was ok to give me a hug or enquiring about why I was 'rejecting' him. I can't imagine not having the curiosity to know what my child was feeling. AND there is a chance they did ask me and I was not able to tell them but I can't recall. I do know I started to go into a deep funk soon after and a few years later,one year after my sister had been sent abroad to school ,I was also sent away at age 13 to a boarding school in a different country. NOT the same one as my sister strangely.
Though my Mom was and is a brilliant and frequent letter writer and they moved to the same country ( but not the same town the following year,), iI often did not see them for months. We did live together in the holidays but that was also stressful since we'd moved from a beautiful old house which I adored to a cramped flat . Something in me shut down and as a result I was ambivalent/passive in forming friendships ( though popular) and devastated when my first boyfriend at age 15 abandoned me wihtout even breaking up ( right after I lost my virginity to him). So patterns were already formed about feeling insecure about attaching and then feelign very fretful once attached that the person I loved would leave. I know this is the nature of life but it has been very hard to relax in a relationship.
So that's a bit of what came up for me reading the book. One of the biggest issues I have is in choosing. That and knowing I will be ok. Yes, I know that if something goes wrong I will probably survive but what is the quality of the survival. I have developed something of a dread/intolerance/ almost a phobia about being without deep connection in my life. The kind that one's own family, a baby can bring. ON my first post, Vunil without knowing my story wrote that having a newborn was hugely healing for her. When I read that I felt that awful awful feeling of knowing I was on the right path for myself and then not following through . (This kept happening hence my initial feeling that the Universe was punishing me or I was punishing me for going against the flow of life; just before my due date the neighbor returned from out of town hugely pregnant and gave birth the same week I'd have been due. Right next door was the constant reminder of what I had destroyed. I almost went out of my mind. No I did go out of my mind.
Since it is such a huge emotional investment picking a therapist and/or partner I become very split because I have not learnt how to trust my decisions.And I seem to make so many painful mistakes ( ir not recognizing a good trustworthy candidate because I don't seem to have the right receptors for it).
I stand now at 45 looking back at the huge chasms of lonliness in my life and excruciating decision- making and the enormous opportunites missed, the largest being my decision not to go ahead with that pregnancy because my partner seemed so unsupportive and scary but the truth is... though the setup was not ideal the primal part of me primed to be a mother knew that there would be a powerful healing and rebirth in overcoming the patterns I had and the ability to bond and grow myself thorugh being a mother to a being I am confident I innately knew how to
rear ( at least initially) and that would be loved and cherished and adored . Maybe I am being naive. Maybe it takes naivete to raise children or noone would do it. I grieve almost everyday to feel the love and joy I had ready in my entire being to give to this child- sleep deprivation,hormone swings, not perfect N partner notwithstanding. With hindsight, we should have had counselling and he should have worked on his anger issues. N that he is/ was he is not an evil person. I do think he is capable of feeling and he was devstated when I left and ended the pregnancy. What I'm saying is, I overreacted hugely. And yes, I did to him something terrible, I dismissed him, did not see him, did not feel him .... he admitted he walked me down the plank but he says rightly that he didn't make me jump. I was so indignant about what kind of a partner would walk their pregnant girlfrend down the plank that I lost the point. It was horrible he walked me down the plank but what were all of my options...
The ultimate irony of my story is my own mother began pressuring me to have an abortion... while I was wondering if it was wise to continue the pregnancy. I was not prepared for her alacrity in forfeiting her own grandchild despite my protests that I didn't know if I could live with myself if I terminated the pregnancy. Her pressure came no doubt from being concerned that my N partner would complicate my life and my life would become a nightmare ( catastrophising) but some small part of me was hugely dismayed that my mother was not saying, have the baby We'll get through this as a family and things will smooth out. The fatal mistake I made was in backing down from my heart's desire and giving in to catastrophizing. And being so agitated that I communicated only by email with the father and did not dare see him in person to tlak with him because I was so anxious about being swayed.
So.... don't know if anyone is still reading and I know this was longwinded. As of today, the girl in Hawaii still hasn't ended her pregnancy. Has plans for Monday but is having a sonogram today and I have a horrible feeling she won't be able to go through with a termination even though the two of them have broken up.. It's really none of my buisness anyone... juts more torture. I do think one look at that sonogram and she/they won't be able to abort. I do believe where there's life there is hope. I know that with adopting I will not have the same biological connection and possibly absorption with a child.. since I tend to be so ambivalent and know what I want absolutely very few times in my life. I see now when split in that tortuous place of absolutely wanting my baby ( from the second of conception) to feeling like I could not be connected to the father ( from a highly reactive agitated place after those two weeks of emotional attacks) I went against the flow of life and was trying to 'protect'.
I don't know what the future holds or what healing is possible but I am grateful to have a place to put my feelings..
And I promise this is pretty much all of the story.
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HighestGood,
I still haven't gotten the book, but intend to soon. I, too, had that longing to be connected to someone for my entire life. I never had parents who wanted to touch me, hug me, hold me or say they loved me. My 2 n husbands were never connected to me in a healthy way either. It wasn't until my children came into my life that I was finally able to connect with another human being in a healthy and complete way. I have worked very hard at slowly letting go as they develop into young adults, but it is not easy and I'm struggling with my youngest leaving for college in 9 months.
You said:
I know that with adopting I will not have the same biological connection and possibly absorption with a child.. since I tend to be so ambivalent and know what I want absolutely very few times in my life.
As someone who has given birth to one child and adopted the other, aside from the inability to nurse the adopted one, there has been no difference in my ability or desire to connect with them. The moment that baby was laid in my arms after her long airplane trip from Korea, she was my child and the bonding was nearly instantaneous. I'm not saying that it is that way for everyone, but it certainly was for me. She was truly my gift from God and I will forever be so grateful to have her in my life. Children are a blessing no matter how they enter your life.
Now that I have a partner with whom I am feeling a deep and mutual connection, I feel as though I have come full circle. It did require getting myself healthy first, however, and you cannot ignore that part of the equation or your circle will never be complete. Even if you are blessed with a child, that child or children will eventually leave the nest and you will need to continue your life independently. I hope you can envision your life in the long term and how you would like it to look. Tread carefully and make decisions that will keep you happy and fullfilled forever, not just for now.
Many blessings,
Brigid
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Highestgood,
I read through the whole post and was moved to hear your whole story. Again, your honesty is remarkable. You've looked at this issue from all sides and as a result, I think you can't help but grow, learn and heal from it. The fact that you are able to open up and write about it says your healing process has already started.
You've said so beautifully much of what I thought and felt in reading the book but didn't have the right words. Maybe now, others will be interested in reading it too.
I really related to those little rhesus monkeys who were separated from their mothers and at first shrieked in alarm and then became despondent and then fell into deep despair.
Same here. Didn't that picture of the baby monkey just say it all. How many times have I felt like that picture. Come to think of it, just last night.
One of the biggest issues I have is in choosing
I would guess this is the case for everyone. Life ultimately boils down to the choices we make. I've made my fair share of poor ones and I've repeated a few, but overall, I think I have made better choices as I've learned the hard lessons of life. Decades ago, I made the same mistake as you. Although I can say the pain is gone (because I was able to forgive myself) I still reflect on it. And that's been a good thing. I became pregnant again shortly thereafter and the experience of selfless loving a helpless being made me the sanest I'd ever been my whole life. Those bonds are powerful.
Brigid wrote:
Even if you are blessed with a child, that child or children will eventually leave the nest and you will need to continue your life independently.
This is very true too. As my children grew up and became independent, my problems returned and they seem to be more serious than ever. I do think that the hormonal upheaval from having kids contributes to womens' emotional and psychological issues, so having kids can be a double edged sword. The problems didn't go away, they just took a backseat to my children's needs during their formative years. Sometimes I wonder if I've harmed my children raising them when I wasn't completely well or healed, but I can honestly say that, my children benefited. They were first always in my life. I worked tirelessly for their wellbeing. And the proof of the pudding is, they truly are great kids.
As of today, the girl in Hawaii still hasn't ended her pregnancy. Has plans for Monday but is having a sonogram today and I have a horrible feeling she won't be able to go through with a termination even though the two of them have broken up
Highestgood, I'm wondering if you will feel any better if she terminates her pregnancy. Will it really bring you any relief or peace of mind?
I do believe where there's life there is hope.
Brigid wrote: I hope you can envision your life in the long term and how you would like it to look.
IMO, hope comes from appreciating the good there is and looking to the future for what could be.
I hope to hear more of your story Highestgood. I'm glad you read the book. Your enthusiasm for it resonates with we. A minor connection I know, but for me that's something. I've known lonliness for too long and am hungry for connections with real, feeling, honest and loving people much like yourself.
CeeMee
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Wow!
Thanks again Ceemee and Brigid ( and Hopalong and Sela and Miss Piggy) and everyone who has responded so supportively to my posts. I am very moved by your kindness and it has been healing to blurt it all out. I hope to have some more resolution with this soon.. Ceemee, I think I have postponed a lot of my life waiting to be healed or healthy enough to do the next thing... I'm so glad you put your children first and it sounds like they turned out very well, you certainly seem enormously compassionate and wise ( the hormonal thing sucks anyhow but when you don't even have beautiful children to show for it....)
I didn't appreciate at the time that, of the many difficult challenges which would arise in the course of being a parent,this was the first hurdle which really tested my commitmment. I wasn't the warrior I thought I would be because I gave into doubt that maybe the whole thing was 'wrong'. And nothing I did made sense. I ended the pregnancy because I thought I could not be connected to this man for the rest of my life ( not realising that in fact I already was connected to him in an indelible way). And then two months later I was so griefstricken and desolate that when he wanted me back, I returned having been able to contact again those parts of our relationship that were actually loving.(That's when he said he wanted to marry me and he forgave me.. until I started releasing some of my anger over his part in what had happened). And then I became the one who was broken and exhausted and guiltridden about what I had done and he was the back walking away.
oh well... No news yet... she's supposed to have an abortion this friday but who knows if she'll do it.... she's certainly taking her time about it. And yes, in some way I will feel relieved but also sad if she feels anything like I feel. ( and that IS a projection) I told the N last time we spoke ( last Thursday) that I couldn't take this rollercoaster but it feels almost worse not hearing from him.
I am not yet ready to end all contact, that too is trauamatic.... I tried amputating him from my life when I was pregnant and the results were hideous. Cutting people out completely when you have deep ties is very hard ( Not so hard for people I've dated only briefly).
He's left a few messages which were calm and acknowledged how precarious the situation is and hoping I was doing well. And then an email that he will be in touch when the whole drama ( his word) is over because now he is just sitting and waiting. (She was going to have it this past Monday the 14th and all weekend I was sick to my stomach and avoiding phonecalls since I wasn't sure what news I would hear). I got hugely triggered on our last call when he suddenly mentioned that she was having a sonogram and wanted him to come. That's what prompted me to say, hey I can't be on this rollercoaster, because my thought was that if they see the baby neither of them will be able to go through with it. I'm still very affected by it since it is bringing back all of my own stuff and I am trying to find a healing way through it. One thing though if she goes ahead and keeps it I will try to accept it and be happy for him/them even if the conditions are less than ideal ( or that's my projection I can't really know anything).
I loved your list of 'healthy' traits Ceemee and I know one of them is not living with resentment and regret.
Take care all.
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Good to hear from you again Highestgood.
"And yes, in some way I will feel relieved but also sad if she feels anything like I feel. ( and that IS a projection)"
I have never known any woman who has ever felt anything but pain at terminating a pregnancy, so I think you may be right that she will feel much of the same pain that you are experiencing. My heart goes out to both of you.
"One thing though if she goes ahead and keeps it I will try to accept it and be happy for him/them even if the conditions are less than ideal ( or that's my projection I can't really know anything)."
You've already planted that little seed and this is a healthy move IMO, (being prepared for the most painful situation). Maybe more thought about how
she may be in similar pain and circumstances as you could help you accept more easily should she decide to go ahead and have the baby.
Thanks for the addition to our list of healthy characteristics. I like that one. I can't take credit for the list though, the boardmembers provided all those wonderful thoughts. We got a lot of smart people here!
CeeMee
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Hello HG,
I agree that your healing journey has already begun. Were you able to see your T yet? I hope so because this is just so much to work through. A T can really help guide you through it to keep your balance when it gets overwhelming.
Um, just a paranoid thought: have you ever spoken directly to the new GF or seen her? I mean...I wonder if he is doing a massive head trip on you.
Please imagine me saying this as gently and softly as I can, because if that's what's happening I'll come throttle the guy myself! But I will also confess that I write this after only quickly rereading some of the posts, so maybe the answer to my question is in here.
Please do take care of yourself and I hope you can disentangle yourself from this creep.
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Thanks all..
Miss Piggy... I don't understand what the massive head trip on his part would be ? And no, I have never spoken with her even though he is constantly 'triangulating' which infuriates me..... . It seemed inappropriate and the last thing I want to do is muddy the waters further ( plus if I have any kind of agenda I'm sure this would be a disaster; all three of us sound like reactive people).
I once had a new guy's ex-girlfriend call me ( she got my number some how). She called to warn me that this guy could not be trusted. It felt a little creepy hearing from her since I'd already drawn my own conclusions about him and let him go , she just confirmed it, however she then got into all of their stuff and I had to tell her to stop calling me plus he started to call me when he found out from her that she called me. He then started venting about her and telling me his side. YUCK! I couldn't get away fast enough.
Her last call to me was an acknowledgement that, after starting with a therapist, she could see that she was calling me to get back at him. In fact, she was using me. I sensed this in her first call ( why is she calling me, doesn't she trust that I can draw my own conclusions) but wasn't sure since she was using the sisters looking out for sisters sthik and I gave her the benefit of the doubt. She told me how he had treated other ex girlfriends badly and was a complete liar.
Anyway.... left a bad taste .
It did occur to me that maybe I should alert this woman in Hawaii to some of his behaviour but is it really my business? Wouldn't I be crossing a big line ? Their dynamic is theirs and might be different from ours. That's the question, when do you interfere in someone else's journey ? How could I be sure that my particular character sensitivities didn't exacerbate situations. My general thought would be, if she wished to contact me then I would speak with her..... I certainly wanted to speak with one of my N's exes to check something out when I was pregnant but she was nowhere to be found.
Anyway the whole thing can deteriorate into' he said, she said'.. Funnily, when he was here on the week of the hurricane and
for my birthday we were talking and he said, "Oh she ( girl in Hawaii) says Hi" and I thought.... what is THAT?. She doesnt even know me. It seemed like some weird move on her part to make her presence felt with me ( since I know she was threatened that he was seeing me) and to create another triangle. Anyway, I consciously did not respond as if everything was just peachykeen by saying,,,, oh tell her hello back. I just let that one go.
.... anyway...my brain is starting to hurt and the anxiety is building again. The new T is helping somewhat but I feel very alone in this...although you on the board are helping me perhaps more than anyone.
I do wonder though; why can't people keep things simple ?
Speak for themselves, not take messages for other people, not gossip ( I do vent a lot on occassion so I'm probably guilty of telling people intimate details too much), speak directly to the person if they have an issue with them. And not tell you what other people are saying about you - and then request that you not talk to them directly since it would 'betray' a confidence. (my N did this to me a couple of times and it was crazymaking; this is what people are saying about you but they are too nice to tell you to your face).
love to all
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Hi HG,
I apologize for not being clear. And triangulating is infuriating for sure. I wasn't suggesting that you call her at all, but I can see how my message could be read like that. No, what I meant was, how do we know that he isn't making this all up just to get back at you for leaving him? That it's all a big hurtful story to push on your most painful button. From your posts he sounds, well, cruel. It wouldn't be unthinkable for a cruel person to make up a story just to hurt someone else...I'm sorry if this post is, in turn, insensitive. :(
Hugs, Miss Piggy