Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Chicken on October 30, 2005, 01:38:29 PM
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Hello!
I was just posting a reply to Longtire on my other thread when I decided it had nothing to do with "Losing my creativity" so I decided to open a new topic.
Basically I have been spending a LOT of time alone. I don't know at what point I should be worried about myself. We were discussing NEED. I don't think I really need anyone in my life at the moment- I make plans with friends, but I would rather not. I go to meet them, but I would rather stay home alone. I don't feel like going out but I would rather that then have them come visit me, because then I am stuck with them (don't mean it to sound like it does). My friends have the tendancy to stay over night rather than go home on public transport late at night alone. I don't want them to stay over night at my flat! The only people I seem to need are the abusive boyfriends who get under my skin, they bring out a need in me that is dormant in my other relationships. When there are no such boyfriends on the scene, there is no need in me.
I need this board and the people on it- this is what stimulates me at present. I don't feel like I need physical beings though! There is surely something very wrong with that! I am going to bring this up at my next session with my counsellor.
What's this all about and can anyone relate? Is this normal?
Who do you need? I don't need anyone! Help! Oh, I need my counsellor, that's all though...
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Hiya Selkie
It might be a normal part of growing into a new person, which is what happens from time to time with anyone healthy. Maybe the friends you have are no longer enough for you, and you really need some more reciprocal friendships, rather than all one way. I know that one well enough!!
Alternatively, it could be a sign of depression, in which case it is something to watch out for and try not to give in to too much. I am sure you will know which is true of you.
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Hi Selkie,
Hmm. Yes, it could be depression. On the other hand, I was just talking to my H recently about how I repeatedly shrink away from socializing with nice people I meet because I feel overwhelmed by others. Long story short, I was made to feel that I didn't belong in my family. And if I did connect, then it quickly became demanding and draining. I learned that I was supposed to serve others and they could take anything of value from me. Example, if I did someone in my family a favor, then I was expected to repeat that favor ad infinitum with no favors in return. No wonder I don't need friends! I like meeting and talking with people. But I don't invite anyone over. This is also because I feel evaluated and like I'll come up short somehow when people come over. You know, the scrutiny. My home is my sanctuary and I don't want anyone to say anything good or bad about it. Maybe I'm depressed too (well, I know I am officially depressed but I don't know if what I just described is a symptom of depression or just my temperament.) I would feel really put out and drained if my friends wanted to stay over anytime they came over...
Yes, I can relate to the "I don't need anyone" tape in my head. It has come from being repeatedly yelled at when I did feel I needed help. When you touch a hot stove and get burned, you don't touch the stove anymore. I was "taught" not to need.
MP
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Oh deary me! I hadn't thought I was depressed.
I feel perfectly happy spending time on my own. My only issue is what people like my flat mates will think. I am happier without company at the moment as I am not my jolly old self whilst with my friends... they will accept me any shape or form but I kinda feel awkward in company at the moment. I am a little preoccupied with the stuff I am going through. My eating isn't affected. Neither is my sleep. I don't feel down constantly. When I go through painful stuff with my counsellor, I feel really distraught but I know why. I write about it and that releases it from me. I do feel close to tears whenever a memory hits me off guard.
I suppose I better start to maintain a balance just for my own peace of mind.
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Hi Selkie:
You have to do what works for you. The last reason you should socialize is to conform to your flat mates' ideas of who or what you should be. Some people are just more happily solitary than others. It's not a crime, or a sign--unless you find yourself shutting people out because you can't face them or it's just too draining. The important thing is to find your own balance and live within it.
Maybe you could propose meeting your friends within a contained situation--like at the movies, or in a restaurant--so that they wouldn't have the opportunity to stay overnight? Just a thought. I would go bonkers if some of my friends routinely became overnight guests.
best,
daylily
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Thank you Daylily!
I think I need a little distraction from all this stuff to be honest. I feel like I am not taking my place in the world at the moment. Last night I pondered on needing my friends. Well, I think I do need them afterall. They allow me to forget myself and take me away from my struggle and issues. That's a need. I do need them! yippee! I called all my friends today! :)
I think it's time to let people in a little bit, and the key is to strike a balance as you say. i like the idea of dinner or a movie.
Thanks
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I think processing all these old memories is pretty exhausting, so that's why you might need more time alone right now. After pulling the plug with BF, I spent a month hardly doing anything more than taking care of my children and working from home. I told myself I wouldn't push anything for a few months. I'm just now feeling like I want to pursue a social life and am connecting with some friends again. I still feel like my energy is pretty low, but I think this is a season, not a permanent condition.
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Thanks Gail, it does take it out of you doesn't it? I pulled plug on my abusive boyfriend about a month ago also... It takes a while before you can offer anymore of yourself to anyone again!
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Hi Selkie,
I understand wanting to be alone and especially not wanting to hear comments about your home. I think it's o.k. to be alone.
Not for ever, but we all need a break.
I'm glad you called your friends because you wanted to, not because your suppose too.
I'm new and terrible at expressing myself, but I wanted you to know I hear you and am thinking of you. This is sent with a hug and wishes of your life being filled with joy and peace.
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Hi Selkie,
I am wondering...your description of being alone but genuinely needing and enjoying that sounds so much like the classic description of a personality characteristic, Introversion, according to the MBTI (Meyers Briggs Type Inventory). You can Google that test and take it online free, and I have a feeling you might find a welcome surprise (and much good company!) in the Introversion descriptions.
Happy nesting,
Hopalong
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Well, I think I do need them afterall. They allow me to forget myself and take me away from my struggle and issues. That's a need. I do need them! yippee!
Selkie, reading this thread and your other thread, about not needing anyone as you were always an independent kid, I think you may right on to something about having issues around "needing others." Which is not to say that you should force yourself to spend time with others when you don't feel like it. You could spend all the time in the world with them, and still not need them, which is what I think you are saying here. That you need your friends, but as distractions, not for caring and intimacy, not for understanding and growing old together. Forgive me if I am off the base, but this is how I read this.
You seem to have had an active social life, and yet not needed anyone. Your present need for withdrawal could be a symptom of any number of things. I second October. May be your are going through a life definining change, and it is quite common to withdraw from the world at such a time. May be you are really dissatisfied with your current friendships, and want something that is deeper and more real, without quite being able to articulate this to yourself yet. Who knows? But if I were you, I would honor myself and my feelings and not force myself to go out with others, even for social outings, when I simply feel a need to withdraw. To worry about what flatmates think about you is really to let them run and rule your life. Remember, you are starting to your voice, and that means taking control of your life back from others.
The social pressures you feel are not unsual. However, if you cope with them and stand up for your own needs, you may be all the more stronger for them. If I were you, I would not take the need to withdraw lightly and honor it, nor would I give up this question that has arisen in your mind, about not needing others, without exploring it further. Also what you described, especially in the other thread, sounds different than just introversion to me.
The difference between you and your mother may be that she did not want to be helped, but you do. If you need this board and need your counsellors, then you need more than just superficial small talk. So someday you could also need your friends, for more than just going to movies, and feel the need for your own family. Do you think you feel safe, accepted for who you are, and understood with your friends? Could you talk to them like you post here, and would they understand and give you helpful responses?
MP:
I know I am officially depressed
MP, I didn't know that you were depressed. Feel free to talk about it.
Marta
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Hi Selkie,
Hope you don't mind if I answer Marta's question here, since it is a bit on topic of aloneness. I am depressed due to social anxiety. My family had a huge breach about four years ago which brought a lot of stuff to the surface. My father would still like to "unring the bell", hit rewind, or something to go back in time, back into denial. I'm glad this stuff all came out, but still I mourn the childhood I didn't have, the parents who didn't invest in me, who didn't encourage friendships, who didn't throw me birthday parties, who didn't care to buy me appropriate clothes, who yelled at me when I spoke up for myself, who took advantage of my kindnesses by turning them into expectations, who expected me to take care of their feelings, who expected me not to expect any attention in return, to make them proud, to seek their approval, to meet their needs. These parents would frown when the rare friend visit did occur and then criticize the friend after they left. These same parents would fawn over my brother's friends. I'm depressed because I am alone and don't know if I want to be or if I am conditioned to be alone.
I am depressed because i watch my D go through the same thing, the ostracism at school because she is sensitive and her mother is too anxious to give her the same investment she wished she'd got as a child. I'm depressed because I wish I knew what I was doing when trying to coach my D through her feelings and give her support. Other mothers seem to know just what to do to help their kids form friendships and keep them. I don't. This depresses me. So I withdraw even more. I wonder why still other kids can overcome these obstacles and my d can't. I see her pain and feel it myself not because we're enmeshed but because I've been there.
I'm depressed because I can't stand to be alone with my father. I am literally rendered mute after years of listening to his pontificating. He no longer pontificates, but still doesn't listen. So now there is silence. I am depressed to know that my father did not ever give a rip about anything I had to say just so long as there was someone with a pulse to talk at. I am a potted plant who was watered and stood in the corner, surviving but not thriving.
I'm depressed because my mother repeatedly offers me things and then changes her mind because it's such a nice thing that she decides to give it to my N brother instead. This has happened A LOT. I am depressed because my mother doesn't realize that she only reserves the crumbs off her table for me while the men get thick slices of steak. I'm depressed because my oldest brother was invisible and my other N brother criticized me ad infinitum with NO intervention from my parents. I am weird, ugly, spoiled (!), stupid, weird, ugly, and weird. I was never praised for my school work since this would upset him. I was weird for being smarter than him.
I am depressed because even though I can talk about a family, it's a family that would have gotten along just fine without me. I have not been taught to invest in relationships because we have moved so much. My parents did not invest in any relationships either. And my brother would criticize the holy cr*p out of me because I did not stay in touch with people who did not stay in touch with me.
Yes, all this is whining about less than ideal stuff, not horrific abuse. I am depressed because now I know it isn't me after all, just the garbage they chose to dump on my head all my life. Sometimes I really do feel like Cinderella without a fairy godmother.
I just wish I was a little more socially savvy than I am. I have to remember that I'm doing ok given I didn't get any mentoring whatsoever in this department. Nice and polite only go so far. Well, that's about all I can stand to vomit up at this time.
Miss Piggy ("yay moi")
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MP:
Many hugs to you. Whew, that is a lot you are going through, and it really does sound like serious depression. Usually these triggers, like depression, are wake up calls for us to sit up and answer some questions let unresolved within us. You are doing more than just OK, but it also seems to me that you are deeply entrenched in a role assigned to you by your family. Surviving but not thriving, as you succintly put it. May be it is time for you to take off the mask they put on your face, and give your self permission to do better.
There is SO MUCH I would like to say to you, and I am sure that others would too, that your story deserves a space of its own and honor of its own flow and growth. Not to be tagged as a me too byline to someone else's story. I know that you are really very shy about starting your own threads, in fact I don't remember seeing even a single one by you, so it is about time............................................................................................................................... :)
Much love, Marta
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Hear, hear Martahttp://
And Miss Piggy, please hear...
this may not feel "social" since it's in the ether, but you've just had a really brave, meaningful talk with a whole bunch of people.
I find you MORE interesting because you have described that dark swamp of feeling so well.
I always think being able to draw a vivid picture of something is the first step toward being less controlled by it.
Just wondering, have you done support groups? I haven't read back on the forum far enough to know your history, but I've been in groups with people with social anxiety and they seemed like good safe places to deal with being who you are in a group, gradually with greater comfort.
I hope you'll eventually get out of letting your original family decide what the definition of you is.
they are so obviously, obviously wrong. And yet you keep believing them...
You are more, better and not doomed to carry this plot line forward forever. They wrote a little play and you learned your parts SO well. But now you are director of your own play. You really are. You can insert some new plot twists, have the main character unfold...even to herself...
You could make it a shy monologue for a while. Then add in a gentle supporting character or two...
I'm really, really glad you're here. And would love to hear of your ventures out Every small step is worth honoring when you're walking through anxiety.
Love to and a big hug.
You AIN'T no potted plant. Or if you are, you're some wonderful bulb...
Hopalong
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Hey Miss Piggy,
Firstly, thank you for sharing that, it apt for this thread so don't worry about hijacking the thread. Are you receiving any counselling? I think you may benefit from working through those painful memories and reclaiming your soul. You badly need to separate their sh*t from you. You have a lot of baggage that belongs to others. It has no place near you.
Marta said: "Selkie, reading this thread and your other thread, about not needing anyone as you were always an independent kid, I think you may right on to something about having issues around "needing others." Which is not to say that you should force yourself to spend time with others when you don't feel like it. You could spend all the time in the world with them, and still not need them, which is what I think you are saying here. That you need your friends, but as distractions, not for caring and intimacy, not for understanding and growing old together. Forgive me if I am off the base, but this is how I read this."
Marta, you are not off base at all. You have made an accurate observation. My counsellor said the exact same thing. I do have an issue with needing people and intimacy etc. I don't know what it feels like to need a friend. Maybe I do need them but I don't realise it. I feel like I don't need them though. I hang out with friends because I feel obliged. I don't want to lose them that's for sure, so I just meet them so I can keep them there on the edge. I am going to have to explore this further. I sound very cold when I read over what I am saying, and I don't think I am a cold person. I don't know what need and intimacy with friends is all about. I tell my friends that I love them and care about them. I do have very deep conversations with one or two of them and can say the things I say on here. Is that intimacy? I still don't need them!
But boyfriends are a different kettle of fish. As soon as I meet a guy I am interested in, an overwhelming enormous gigantic volcano of need erupts inside me and bowls me over. This is when my suppressed need reaches the surface... This is the me i detest. I have big problems with being needy, I think it's so ugly.
I do fantasize when i see "friends" on TV, that would be nice to have a gang of friends whom you are close to and whom are always around. I couldn't do that though, but I would like to someday, like create my own family made up of friends...
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Selkie wrote:
"I do fantasize when i see "friends" on TV, that would be nice to have a gang of friends whom you are close to and whom are always around. I couldn't do that though, but I would like to someday, like create my own family made up of friends..."
Funny you should say that Selkie, I've wondered about "Friends" and "Seinfeld" and just about every other sitcom I've watched that portrays relationships that I've never seen in real life. I ask myself, am I missing something or is this all make believe?
Seinfeld really cracked me up because I lived in NY and believe me, neighbors barely spoke, let alone came knocking on one's door unannounced. How about Sex in the City, (or whatever that was called). A bunch of women sitting around talking openly about sex. NOT!
My favorite now is "The L Word" which portrays a bunch of lesbians who basically, eat, sleep, laugh, cry and do everything else together. Don't forget the daily meeting at the local club "The Planet" where everyone just happens to bum[ into each other. None of this resonates with me at all. Is any of it real? I do believe that subconsciously, I may think that this is what healthy people look and act like and I ain't that!
CeeMee
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Is that intimacy? I still don't need them!
When you have intimacy in your relationships, you won't have to ask, you will just know it. It will feel unlike anything else in this world.
Maybe I do need them but I don't realise it.
Bingo.
What I hear you say is that a lot of human needs simply never existed in you. Like need for mother's love or need for friends. That is like saying I don't need food to survive or air to breathe. If I were you, I would explore reasons as to why it is find it so hard to admit to these needs. Could it be because you have big problems with being needy and think it is ugly? Not surprizing that you feel this way, given how things were in your family. Could it be because you are really afraid deep down that if you need others and they wouldn't be there? After all no one was there for you when you were growing up.
MP, I second Selkie. You need to separate their sh*t from you. Intellectual knowledge of it, which you seem to have, doesn't do the trick. The realization has come through the feelings somehow, so don't stuff them please. You nailed it when you said that you feel like Cinderella without a Godmother. They say that the mythological characters we identify with are a clue to where we are at in life and what may be happening to us. There is an interesting book by Colette Dowling called Cinderella Complex. I had read it a long time ago, but it may be something you could look up. A fairy God Mother could come in form of a therapist too.... :)
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Marta, that's really amazing that you found something in my quote: "maybe I do need them but don't realise it" -I had to read that over and over and over again to get why you replied "bingo"!!
What I meant was that maybe my needs are being fulfilled but I don't realise it... :(
I think that both you and my counsellor see something different though, something i am not yet aware of. I feel like i am walking around with a monster but I can't see him...everyone else can. Everyone can see my issue but I can't... yet.
Did you think i meant: Maybe I do have a need but i haven't realised that I have a need... this is what I think you read from my quote.
In which case, I hope i do. I would like to have a need. It would be nice to need my friends and for them to need me.
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For me it has been a phase I've gone in and out of throughout my healing journey.
When I hit the grieving portion of my healing I wanted no contact with any of my friends. I didn't begin to fully grieve until I had dealt with most of my memories. I had cried here and there, got angry and depressed but never got into grieving. When I did, beginning in November 2004, I wanted no contact with friends.
I am also INFP, Introverted, Intuitive, Feeling, and Perceptive which makes me a true introvert. I enjoy my time alone. I find that after being with a friend I like spending time alone. This energizes and refuels me. I find there is a balance between alone time and time spent with people. If I am around a group of people, for instance a church service, I find I need to go home and escape from the noise and become silent. If one or two people I need to get on my own to have some inner peace and time for me.
My t says there is a balance which each introvert must find for themselves. No two people will be a like. I thrive and grow and learn and explore on my own. Someone else may need a balance of more friend time and less alone time.
An extrovert thrives on activity and contact with people. That is what energizes and refuels them.
There was a time earlier on in my healing where I was depressed and needed to get on anti-depressants. I didn't withdraw from friends during that time but I cried a lot and had lots of anxiety. However some people who are depressed withdraw from people. I also couldn't sleep and didn't eat very well.
I have to add one thing here. I found most of my friends were either N or were not willing to fully heal from their childhood abuse issues. I dropped all those friendships which fit those two groups because they weren't healthy. That left me with no physical friends and I was okay with that. My t agreed that this is a phase many people go through who are healing from childhood abuse such as mine. I was thankful to hear that because at first I thought there was something wrong with me.
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Hi Selkie,
You have "deep unspeakable suffering" in your tagline....
in some way, this seems like a signpost, pointing deep within you, that might direct you to a need...
Could the need be not to feel? Or could that be what you THINK the need is? And being emotionally present, as opposed to just "there" with other people, seems scary?
Might be a question to explore. I know that I've been so full of need at times that I scared people off. So I would go through long periods of isolation because I only knew how to express my needs in 4th gear (overwhelming others) or stuffing them so deep I coudln't feel them (staying alone and burying depression in escapes like compulsive mystery novel reading or TV--still do that...).
One of my tasks now is to learn how to express my needs without letting out a volcano, and accept that getting a little comfort means a lot. A little comfort from a few different people...and try to add it up inside.
Just some rambling thoughts...
Hopalong
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Hi Hopalong
What you say is true. I know it intellectually but i am not there yet emotionally, I feel like I am stuck in the past at the moment.
I know I must have a huge need in me that is stifled. I needed to stifle it in order to survive as a kid. I am feeling the hurt like it only happened yesterday. I never felt the hurt as a kid, I couldn't afford to, it was transformed into rage. My counseller asked me the other day if my Mothers love had any condition, like would she sometimes act loving towards me if I did this, or that, or whatever, but there was no condition.
I can not remember one time where she was loving towards me. She hated me. She told me that she wished she never had me. She was constantly trying to get rid of me, out of the house. If she was going somewhere, she would sneak away for fear I would want to come too. She was always rejecting me. As a result, I acted out, I was troublesome, I got expelled from school. As a result, she hated me even more. She was so cruel to me. She played games with me. She compared me to my brothers and sisters. She was nice to them just so she teach me a lesson. It taunted me, it made me hate her even more. She ridiculed me. She always sought revenge. She was constantly punishing me. When I did break under the strain and I collapsed in tears, she would tell me to stop feeling sorry for myself. I learned to hate, never to love.
I'm sure once upon a time, I tried different tactics to win her love. They all failed and I shut down. I guess this is where my needing stopped. What good is it to need when you are 100% sure your need is not going to be met? It's a waste of time. My need had to be terminated or I would remain in this hell. I am still there emotionally. I have to go back into my childhood and open up that child again. It's a painful place but at the moment I am nowhere near opening the adult up. I'm sure it will come in time.
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Selkie hon... it sounds to me like you understand where you are at, at this present time and what you say makes a lot of sense. I feel that you're giving yourself understanding, and like you say, in time the rest will come.
Big hugs
H&H xx
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Hello all,
(((Selkie))) I sometimes wonder how I would have turned out if I actually knew my parents were rejecting me rather than this covert thing they do. Your mother kind of let you know loud and clear. I wonder if this would have just destroyed me or if I would have known that this was just so totally weird that it had to be her problem not mine. I can understand why you would have stopped chasing your mother's love. There is a natural inclination for a child (I won't call it a need here, how about natural instinct instead) for a child to want, expect, and grab onto a mother's love because it IS necessary for survival as a baby at least. At some point, it became apparent for you to stop desiring this for survival, because at some point you realized you were chasing something that didn't exist for you. I don't know. This seems like a healthy response to your situation. Why need and pursue something that doesn't exist? that would just lead to endless frustration.
Someone else above said that balance is the key. I guess I wonder if I have the right balance. But I am so filled with self-doubt that I don't know if I have the right balance for me. I just know it isn't the same balance as other people. However, I am concerned that since introverts are heavily outnumbered by extroverts, and in the US anyway, we are culturally discriminated against, that we may be telling you that you have a larger problem than you actually do. You seem comfortable and accept your balance, it seems to me. I don't hear the yearning in your writing that I feel in myself. This is just an observation from a possibly distorted point of view. I just raise it as a possibility, not a foregone conclusion. :)
Sallying Forth said: I am also INFP, Introverted, Intuitive, Feeling, and Perceptive which makes me a true introvert. I enjoy my time alone. I find that after being with a friend I like spending time alone. This energizes and refuels me. I find there is a balance between alone time and time spent with people. If I am around a group of people, for instance a church service, I find I need to go home and escape from the noise and become silent. If one or two people I need to get on my own to have some inner peace and time for me.
This is me to a tee, also. The only problem is that I think this means there is something wrong with me. My "progress" is I don't think there's anything wrong with me, now I think other people think there is something wrong with me. :D And I still care about that.
Thank you everyone for your caring responses to my verbal upchuck. This is the basic construction of the hamster cage that rolls around and around every night when I can't sleep. I do have a T and I told her early on that the reason I come to her is because I need to pay someone to keep my confidences, that I do not have a best friend to count on to keep my secrets. Oh, this is another theme--that anytime I confided in someone, it got back to my parents who would become very upset with me and sometimes punish me for talking about things outside the home. Yes indeedy. This is a big one. Just posting here is a huge relief. Marta, this is also why I am uncomfortable starting my own thread. Standing right behind me while I sit at the keyboard is the huge boogie man that will club me and send me to my room for making family problems too visible and being repeatedly betrayed by my own personal Judas. Over the littlest transgressions and benign opinions. For some reason, this little trick of posting within other threads makes me more comfortable. Childish but effective. 8) It's helpful that you call me on it and say, post away, you have permission!!!
do any of you ever feel this way?: I notice that I am not a joiner. That joining a group would define me. And if I am defined, then people would react negatively (notice, negative not positive) against that definition. I would also feel obligated to meet the group's expectation of a member that is, you may do this, you may not do that. I guess I feel the price of belonging is too great to give up my freedom. (Hmmm, family of origin issues here, just maybe???) To give you an easy example, when I am with people of one political party, I feel more akin to the other opposing party. I don't think I'm being contrarian, maybe I am, but I think well, can't both parties be right about things? Can we be individually responsible for our own well-being AND look out for our neighbor? (I know I am oversimplifying and hope I don't offend anyone with my characterizations). Anyway, i have this internal catch-22 that leads me to yearn to belong and be accepted, then reject the group for fear that I will be swallowed up. For fear I will be rejecting others outside the group as well.
Gosh, as I write this I realize I don't want to offend anyone by being who I am. Sheesh!! At some point, I give up and say well I can't please anyone so I'll just sit over here by myself. My T says this all boils down to never having been allowed to individuate or whatever...so what do I do now?
I guess my bottom line is I just want to become more comfortable with being me...
If you got this far, thanks for reading!! MP
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Well, jeez, of course you have a hard time opening up!
What a horrible, monstrous, inexcusable cruelty that was.
Your mother was barking mad, and I am so, so sorry.
You're not, though. You are sane and you do see where it began. That's the biggest step.
I send a huge pillowy down comforter (if you're not allergic to feathers) absolutely full of a powerful concentrate of motherlove, that comes from all the good mothers all over the planet, those great mothers who have so much love in them that they spin out threads of it everywhere, and those catch together and spin themselves into a great huge warm soft comforter for YOU, who deserves it.
Snuggle up, warm and safe.
You are not in her house any more.
You are going to find your power to be happy.
And you'll go out when you're ready and let a little love in from other people. Maybe just a little bit at a time. Until you eventually are open all the way, and the pain is healed.
It really can be. Don't forget that, even in your alone time.
Love,
Hopalong
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Hi Selkie,
I just want to second what Hops said above. And the idea of a big cozy comforter to hug ourselves with is a keeper!
Hugs, MP
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OK, me again...this thread is just such a rich vein for me to explore!!! :?
I wanted to get back to the "Friends" part. I also had a mixed reaction to this show. On the one hand, I did think it was contrived. On the other hand, at one of my workplaces, the single people regularly got together after work. Some dated each other. I felt hopelessly out of it (beyond my usual state of aloneness) because I thought this crossed boundaries that I kept for myself. I would wonder why am I following one set of rules, that is, have friends outside of work, have a family outside of work, leave work at the office, etc. and these folks are totally going the other way. I chalked it up to the fact that I was married. But there were married people who also socialized quite a bit outside the office above and beyond business-related contact. It was rather cult-like, and now years later, there are blogs and lawsuits about white slavery within this very same company! What's different between then and now? The people complaining about spending too much time at the office are now married with kids. These are the same people who dated each other etc. I scratch my head because it was definitely a disadvantage to be one of the few in my dept to be married when everyone else was single.
Then I wonder about many people who have a real need to create family outside their own family. I am very admiring of people's ability to pull this off. I just wouldn't do it in the workplace. Then again, I am a loner. :?
MP
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MP, one advantage of having your own thread is that family secrets are a lot easier to keep. You can erase all traces of your missives a week later by deleting the entire thread, which you can't do on someone else's thread. Think about it, I think the Boogie Man is nodding in approval :lol:
I am depressed because i watch my D go through the same thing, the ostracism at school because she is sensitive and her mother is too anxious to give her the same investment she wished she'd got as a child.
This is pretty serious. Why do you feel that you are too anxious to make the same investment with d?
Gosh, as I write this I realize I don't want to offend anyone by being who I am. Sheesh!! At some point, I give up and say well I can't please anyone so I'll just sit over here by myself. My T says this all boils down to never having been allowed to individuate or whatever...so what do I do now?
First of all you realize that you are not offending anyone, I've never seen you offend anyone, and second there is no need to try and please everybody.
Other mothers seem to know just what to do to help their kids form friendships and keep them. I don't. This depresses me.
Oh puhleeeese, who are these other mothers that just know exactly the right thing to do or say? Susan Sarandon in Stepmom wasn't one of them. :P I think you are inflating everyone else, and pulling yourself down. In today's world, if you just have loving mother who wants to do her best for her children, that in itself is a great gift.
now I think other people think there is something wrong with me.
Like who? Your family? Your husband? Your children? Society at large? As long as it is not your husband, I don't think that people put so much pressure at this age on being an extrovert. In high school, yes. I am very introverted, and even spent many months in a forest being a real hermit, and yet I haven't felt any vibes that others thought that anything was wrong with me. Are you sure you are not just carrying your childhood demons around with you?
every night when I can't sleep.
That sounds awful, I am sorry.
Yes, all this is whining about less than ideal stuff, not horrific abuse.
Suppose you see raging fire that burns down a house. Does it matter that it was only a spark that started it? Would it not be seen as arsen in the court of law? Would it not be punished? If you are feeling clinically depressed, then what happened to you matters. Nor is it about less than ideal stuff, but real N abuse.
I do have a T and I told her early on that the reason I come to her is because I need to pay someone to keep my confidences,
I am glad that you have a T. Are you uncomfortable submitting to therapy for therapeutic reasons other than sharing your confidences?
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Did you think i meant: Maybe I do have a need but i haven't realised that I have a need... this is what I think you read from my quote.
Selkie, yes that is what I meant. Everyone needs love, just about everyone who is not an N. So why should you be an exception?
The picture you paint of your mother in this thread is very different from what I read in the other thread. So she was not just unavailable and untouchable, but intentionally cruel to you. And you still want to put your arms around her and help her. That IS love, Selkie, that you expressed towards her.
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Hello all,
Marta, I think my ability to "invest" in my d is hampered by being subtlely intimidated by other mothers at school. The up-and-down looks, the veiled insults ("did you make that yourself?") etc. Friendships of a certain age in small private schools are brokered by the mothers. I'm not making this up. If mom breaks an unspoken rule, girlie is dropped from the invite list. A few of these mothers live to reject people (how N!) and feel their power by appointing themselves the keeper of who's in and who's out. I keep fighting back by continuing to be civilized and kind to everyone. Do I really want my D to get to know these families? Not really, but I wish she could be a member of a different group without being made to feel "out" of another.
That said, I have to admit to pulling my d out of certain group activities because of the obvious rude behavior that went unchecked by aforementioned mothers because if they, the queens, corrected their Ds, that would mean acknowledging bad behavior on the part of their princesses. If they did stoop to say anything, it would be to say "they were only kidding, joking, playing". My D and I are thinskinned too. So there we are. If you have caught any early episodes of Gilmore Girls, this might give you the picture of what I'm up against. And of course this would push my buttons having grown up with N and still learning how to hold my ground and all.
My very early childhood years were spent in neighborhoods on both sides of the tracks and it is very confusing for me. From cinderblock walls and corrugated fiberglass to rows of McMansions and BMWs. Don't fold your napkin instead of casually tossing it askew or you'll be bounced out on your botoxed behind. Again, I'm not making this up.
Are you uncomfortable submitting to therapy for therapeutic reasons other than sharing your confidences?
I don't think I understand your question....? I just meant to indicate that one reason I see my T is to share confidences but that isn't the only reason. Nuff said for now.
Thanks for the tip on starting threads and the book. I'm going to look that one up. :) MP
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Oh my god MP, that sounds so traumatic. Walking on eggshells is bad enough, but to have to carry your child on your back too while you traipse! This would be enough to give me a nervous breakdown. All of my sympathies are with you. As if not getting it right once is not enough, now you have to live through it twice! Part of the reason I have decided not have children is because then I would have to live through high school all over again, and I don’t think I can bear to do that. My childhood was nothing like Gilmore girls, but the sheer pressure for social acceptance and approval was felt to be so great during teenage years. Hugs to you.
Marta
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Hello Selkie and All,
It has been awhile since I have written on this forum, but I have been here reading quite often. This topic is exactly what I am dealing with today and I would like to offer my own experience.
This morning I agonized about going to meet some women and their daughters for a play date. They meet every Wednesday and it is actually very nice. My daughters love it and I also like the distraction. Yet I don't want to go. In fact I have missed three of these play dates already (with no good reason). Just before sitting down to write this, I made a half hearted attempt at getting the girls ready to go. They suggested they would like to play at home and that was all I needed. Home it is. Sounds good to me. This has become a way of life for me. I only leave the house when I have obligations or my therapist appointment. (I'm sooooo thankful for the internet and e-shopping! :D)
Selkie--I can relate to what you are saying. I also like the distractions of my friends, yet I don't think I've ever let myself need anyone (except my H to some extent). My t has also brought this up to me recently, about my relationship with him. I was suprised but realized that he was right and I know why I don't let myself need anyone. Rejection...over and over again. Parents, siblings, men, friends...all the Ns that were either given to me or who I later chose rejected me whenever I needed anything. Basically, it makes me feel like I don't exist. So I'm really not sure that I'm up to giving it another try. I am still confused about what exactly I am suppose to need from others. :?
I also like the idea of having a level of comfort with friends, but I am always worried that they have one foot out the door of our relationship.
All in all, I agree that spending time alone is important in getting to know one's self and processing the past. Changing requires vulnerability, and, for me at least, it is hard to be vulnerable in a crowd or with people I can't trust enough to need.
Best,
Learning
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Hi Learning-
Yep, completely relate. Any teeny tiny inkling of an opportunity to pull out of an arrangement, and I will! :)
I am fabulous at making plans for next week, but as soon as next week comes around, I start to dread the plan I've made. I usually let the person call me, because in the event that they should forget or just flake, then it lets me off the hook... I walk around the place like a cat who got the cream when i've been let off the hook. Yippee! I have the evening to myself again...
I allow people to flake. I am very understanding to these things that suddenly "come up" and interrupt our plans to meet. I don't like how this sounds though when I see it in print. I have a feeling if I did commit to people more, I would develop a need. Essentially, what we are doing here is nipping that need in the bud. Quite sad really when you think of it. Are we subconsciously avoiding people? It feels ultra safe here, and my friends never hurt my feelings or never really phase me. That's a nice place to be, isn't it? No one can get to you, you are guaranteed 100% peace, no crazyness, no problems just 100% safety. You get used to hanging out in this place and it's fine! I'm very very very comfortable here! I love it!
I go through this with my counsellor too though and i want to work through it. I go through periods where I want to quit counselling. I get really pissed off in the morning before my counselling session, I feel like I am being inconvenienced, my appointment is too early, it's too expensive, It's too intense, I don't feel like talking today... never came out with so many excuses in my life!!! I used to believe my excuses, now I am seeing them for what they are and i am desperately trying to come up with answers as to WHY I really don't want to go.
When i do go, I feel better. I feel like I need my counsellor now but every so often I go through this again. Is it some kind of intimacy we sense that keeps us at bay? Say if levels of intimacy were floors in a building, well I experience this on the stairwell to each floor. I get over the first hurdle, and that's ok, but then there's another one further down the road. I want to pull out altogether, don't want to be in that building at all. I think that's what happens, though it doesn't feel like it to me on a conscious level.
You meet every Wednesday, that sounds like a bit of a commitment and you said it is really nice! Doesn't make sense why you wouldn't go!? Interesting stuff... worth exploring as I feel like we are missing out on something! What, I do not know, but it's worth finding out! We can always go back to our caves if we don't like it 8)
P.S Going out to dinner tonight with some friends... bummer! Ha Ha! - I have already planned my escape route at the end of the evening
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Just an after thought Learning, my parents were very similar to me in this regard. I think I learned a lot of my behaviours from watching theirs. I am not sure how much of it is really me. I wonder if your child is echoing you or feeding off your energy in avoiding the play date. I might be totally off the mark here so correct me if you don't agree. I am just beginning to look into this world of "putting things off" or "making excuses"...
Regards,
Selkie
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I allow people to flake. I am very understanding to these things that suddenly "come up" and interrupt our plans to meet. I don't like how this sounds though when I see it in print. I have a feeling if I did commit to people more, I would develop a need.
I used to be that way too. In my case, I simply hadn't realized that it is "normal" to expect other people to not stand you up last minute or whatever. If that happened to me, I felt too ashamed, like others were saying you are not significant enough for me to show up for this movie we planned weeks ago. Since I always second guessed myself, I simply took what was given to me. If your friends do this to you often, then they are not treating you right.
It appears to me that this is not needs but expectations. To be able to expect something from others takes a sense of self-worth and not being needy actually, because if you expect, then you risk rejection. If you expect nothing, then there is no rejection -- so in fact it is very needy indeed to expect nothing of others. At least in my case, it was about needing others so much that I was saying fine, whatever to any bad behavior. I was too ashamed to admit that others were treating me badly, so I simply said, fine whatever. In my family, if I expected and did not get something, it felt like my fault, and there was huge shame associated with that.
Selkie, you could expect nothing from your family and mom, so that is how you have gone about in the world. But indeed there are friends who show up as promised, and how good it feels when someone treats you like you are worth their while.
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Hi Selkie,
How was dinner? Did your escape plan work? 8) I hope you had fun.
Yep, we seem to be on a similar journey. I also allow people to flake, but it does bother me now. I used to not be in touch with how it bothered me. Now I allow myself to feel the anger when I get blown off or something and after I cool off I decide what to do. If it is someone who has a good track record with me, I will tell them how I feel. If it is someone who has done this before or someone I'm not that interested in I will accept their action as their fault and continue a friendly, albeit distant relationship with them. In my anger, I still go through some thoughts about it being my fault, but I try to talk myself through it. I mean, if I look at the flipside about me bowing out of these Wednesday playdates, it isn't my friends' faults. It is mine. My issue. So when someone does it to me...it is their issue...not mine. Still, it is normal to feel angry and I do. (BTW, I'm quite proud of that, feeling my anger...it's been a long road...)
I have a feeling if I did commit to people more, I would develop a need.
Do you think it is possible that the need is already there?
Are we subconsciously avoiding people? It feels ultra safe here, and my friends never hurt my feelings or never really phase me. That's a nice place to be, isn't it? No one can get to you, you are guaranteed 100% peace, no crazyness, no problems just 100% safety. You get used to hanging out in this place and it's fine! I'm very very very comfortable here! I love it!
At this point, I am definetly conciously avoiding people. :lol: Well, sort of I guess. I mean I am constantly with people...my children or my husband. And we have tons of activities that we take the kids too. It is me personally, who is avoiding intimacy within friendships. I've become a homebody. It is safe, you are right. And in many ways it is a very nice place to be, although I still feel like I'm missing something. I am fortunate to have my dh, and we have a pretty good relationship. Although, I think that we both have residual intimacy issues that can be worked on.
I go through this with my counsellor too though and i want to work through it. I go through periods where I want to quit counselling. I get really pissed off in the morning before my counselling session, I feel like I am being inconvenienced, my appointment is too early, it's too expensive, It's too intense, I don't feel like talking today... never came out with so many excuses in my life!!! I used to believe my excuses, now I am seeing them for what they are and i am desperately trying to come up with answers as to WHY I really don't want to go.
Selkie, I think that what you are feeling is part of the therapy process. Have you been able to talk to your t about it? It is very helpful if you can. Your t can help your understand why and it will help with your healing.
Oooh! I really like your visual of the stairwells and intimacy. Yes it is like that for me too. And I can really relate for hoping for a fire drill or something so I can bail out of the building. :)
A quick note on me and commitment. I have no fear of what I've come to think about as structured commitments. In fact, my life is full of them. I am afraid of commitment to people when it is just about me and them as friends. In other words, when I have a clear responsibility to someone...no problemo. When I just need to be me...hasta la vista. :lol: Relates to that fear of rejection thing.
Just an after thought Learning, my parents were very similar to me in this regard. I think I learned a lot of my behaviours from watching theirs. I am not sure how much of it is really me. I wonder if your child is echoing you or feeding off your energy in avoiding the play date. I might be totally off the mark here so correct me if you don't agree. I am just beginning to look into this world of "putting things off" or "making excuses"...
I'm sorry Selkie, but I am not clear about what you mean here. From the way I read this, here is my thought process...Do my children sense my moods? Yes absolutely. Do I sense theirs? Yes absolutely. Do my children learn from me and dh what is acceptable? Yes absolutely. Is deciding to listen to our feelings about what we want to do acceptable? Yes absolutely.
Maybe you could let me know more about your situation with your parents.
Let me know if I got it (so to speak), or if I was way off base.
Cheers and hugs,
Learning
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Oh God Selkie, I sometimes feel like you are my twin....
I do exactly the same thing. I am always very enthusiastic and the first to agree to making plans, but when that day comes around I will do anything to get out of doing whatever it is I am supposed to be doing. i will make up elaborate excuses or i simply will not answer my phone no matter how persistant the other person is. I am terrified of being alone and yet being with others does not fullfill something either, unless they are the same as my mother I guess. Often when I do go to where ever it is all I want to do is go home, and sometimes I fnd it very difficult to concentrateon the conversation. i don't think they know this because I have had a lifetime of pretending but it's like there is a disconnection somewhere.
it's like I can only go so far and then I switch off. same thing happens to me in therapy too. I didn't go this week. had to stay in and wait for a fridge freezer..... Even though I knew it wasn't coming (Long story) If the therapist touches on anything intimate My brain noticeably disconnects. i tell her when it is happening now so that we can try to build up a pattern around it. Sorry I'm going on about me but this thread touched something for me...
Hope you are OK
Spyralle x
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Spyralle, What are we like!!! :wink:
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Oh P.S... Was the fridge freezer a genuine excuse for not making your counsellor appointment? or is she getting too close for comfort?
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So much of this thread is familiar!!! I have become progressively social phobic over recent years, because of the impact of traumatic events and retraumatisation. It happens, pretty well inevitably, at times, but the more time I spend at home, the less chance there is of it happening on any given day.
I remember before I found this strategy, going out day after day, and getting these terrible things happening that I didn't understand and couldn't explain. Often I didn't even see the trigger, I would just be overwhelmed with this terrible feeling, and not know where it was coming from. I would fight against it, and try to compare it with reality, but sometimes I would not be strong enough to stop it, and have to return home as soon as I could, or at the least walk away on my own, to find some peace. Sometimes this would happen three or four or more times in a week, and it would leave me a wreck. These are not panic attacks, but some of the feelings are similar; they are incidents of retraumatisation.
So, fast forward to today. Last week I had the difficult time in the car. That was on Saturday. Then I stayed in the house until Wednesday, when we ran out of food, and I had to go to the supermarket. I ended up a nervous wreck doing that, and felt really ill, and spent the next afternoon asleep to recover from it. Then today. This morning I have taken C to her new school, 20 miles from home, for a 3 hour art session. Screen printing I was going to spend the time in the car, reading, but I have a friend nearby, and I am at her house instead.
This friend has N traits - as all my friends do - but she has given me a house key so I can come here whenever I want, when C is at school, which is going to be sooo useful in the months ahead. She has told me to help myself to anything, and she has left me her computer to play with - which is where I am now.
If today goes well, then that is a big achievement both for C and me, in terms of making contact with the real world once more, and breaking out of our self imposed exile in my house. I know it is tempting to stay safe, but this is a cumulative thing; once you start then the only way to go is to be less and less social, less and less involved in life. And it is soooooo boring. Safe, but deadly dull.
I always feel like staying at home when I have a social event to go to. Usually that is because my family is involved, which is always more or less of a nightmare. And C has learned the same kind of dread in advance of anything. But we recognise it, cope with the feelings, and go anyway, with the understanding that if it is really awful we will come straight home again. At least that way you have half a chance of having a good time.
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Hi October, I hope today goes well for you. If not, then I honor your feelings and know that you will do the best for yourself and your D. I've really found that the more I go out, the easier it gets to go out. Even the times I "give up" and retreat back home make it easier the next time. By the way, I think your post was the most common-sense way I have seen this all expressed.
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Thanks Longtire. Yes, today we chalk up as a success. This will tell you how wonderful this friend of mine is. Not only did she give me free access to her house whenever I need it because of school, I also mentioned to her that I had intended to call at my sils house on the way home with a birthday present for my nephew, but that I had left the present at home. So she gave me a present from her christmas collection for her children, and some wrapping paper, to save me having to return next week. And she wouldn't take any money for it, so I said I would babysit for her some time, whenever she needs it.
I picked C up after her lesson and she was smiling and happy, and said it was really good, and the teacher was lovely. She said the children could eat their lunch in the classroom when they wanted to, and the atmosphere was so relaxed and happy. And the teacher said her self portrait was very good, and well proportioned. :D I am so pleased that this seems to be working out.
So, on the way home I called and had coffee with sil (with c, which is unusual, because she does not like to go there. Violence issues with my b and his children. Also, they have a dog, and she is nervous of dogs.) So that went ok. Then we called at a garden centre on the way home and bought c some holographic card for craft work. Then we called at my parents, because they didn't know about the home ed thing yet, so I told them about it, except not really. I said she has joined another school, which allows part time pupils. That was to save my dad freaking about her dropping out of education or whatever. (Nothing like the child supporting the parents, is there?)
So after all that it has been a real marathon of a day. I came home, and the next door neighbour took c to buy some chips and coke, which gave me some time to sleep. I am still feeling very tired, but not too bad, and at least we now have the weekend. I always try not to do anything at all on a Sunday, to help recover. Not that I do much any other day, to be honest. Except today. Today felt like regaining some of the lost ground.
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It appears to me that this is not needs but expectations. To be able to expect something from others takes a sense of self-worth and not being needy actually, because if you expect, then you risk rejection. If you expect nothing, then there is no rejection -- so in fact it is very needy indeed to expect nothing of others. At least in my case, it was about needing others so much that I was saying fine, whatever to any bad behavior. I was too ashamed to admit that others were treating me badly, so I simply said, fine whatever. In my family, if I expected and did not get something, it felt like my fault, and there was huge shame associated with that.
Hi Marta,
This resonates deep within me. I have been that way in the past. However I am no longer this way. There is some big change occurring deep within me. I don't have words for it yet but I know it is happening.
For me it is connected to self-worth rather than shame. My Nparents instilled in me, by their abusive behavior towards me, that I was not worth anything. When I engage in a relationship I feel the same way because I learned this from my Nparents. If I am not worth anything then anyone can do anything to me because I am a nothing. I don't exist.
Okay, that is the way I felt for years and now ... something is happening. Again I don't have words for it. I know in my knower. Can't explain it. I tried to talk it out loud which usually works but I don't have words for it. YET.
What it feels like ... when my h comes here every couple of weeks I don't drop everything in my life. I continue doing the things I've been doing. I add him to my life AND I don't subtract anything from my own life. Okay, that's about as far as I can go to explain this phenomenon which is occurring deep within me.
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This friend has N traits - as all my friends do
What?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
What's going on, October? ALL your friends have N traits? No wonder you don't feel like going to social events, no wonder you are in self-imposed exile. When I got rid of my N friends, which was most of my inner circle, my life changed. For the better!
Girl, its time to get out of that N circuit and find some good folks to hang out with who'd love you and appreciate you. Even keys to the White House are simply not worth it.
SF, hey, something is happening!!!! :D :D :D Hugs, Marta
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This friend has N traits - as all my friends do
What?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
What's going on, October? ALL your friends have N traits? No wonder you don't feel like going to social events, no wonder you are in self-imposed exile. When I got rid of my N friends, which was most of my inner circle, my life changed. For the better!
I don't know how. I know that will sound crazy. I used to have lots and lots of friends, but then I got ill. The normal ones ran for the hills, and the only ones left are my minister friend, who is sometimes lovely and sometimes really cruel, or B, who has given me her keys, but who does not understand personal boundaries (which to be honest is probably why I have her key), or another B, who is always there for me, but does have a tendency to gap search chances to tell her own story rather than listening to me, or another B, who talks 55 minutes to every 5 of listening. Or perhaps my next door neighbour, who cuts my grass for me sometimes, but is a controller par excellence.
The problem is, if I get rid of these people, who are essentally good people, but with N traits, I have nobody left but family. How can I expect only to have normal friends, when I don't even know what normal is?
Why throw away a lifejacket until you have a lifeboat to climb into? There are no lifeboats in sight - they all rowed away years ago. The only people left are the Nish ones, who may be weird, but lets face it I am not Mrs Normal. I am sure I have Ntraits myself, but hopefully not pathological ones. There are graduations of behaviour in all of us. I can now spot the most N people, such as my mother, who would most likely qualify as NPD. Other than that, I think it is difficult to eliminate contact with Nish people altogether. The best thing to do is to recognise their limitations, and keep within them. And also be aware of my own needs, and try to meet at least some of them. And I need to have some people to deal with.
If I went out tomorrow to a social event, and went through the whole room, and chatted to everyone in sight, I can guarantee that the person who ends up swapping phone numbers and being a friend, will be the most Nperson there. But I can also guarantee they will be the person who has something other than tv soaps to talk about.
I think I am digging myself into a big hole here. :(
How can I lose my few friends, and then be totally alone, when I have no process in place for finding new ones who are healthy? Every time I try therapy to achieve this new healthy life, I get abandoned by the t and thrown back onto - guess who? Family and Nish friends. But at least I understand more about who they are, and about who I am.
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Hi October and all with the same issues,
I avoided this thread for some reason. I thought it was not something I could relate to. I just thought, she's tired and wants to be alone. But I realise now it was just too close to home for me.
I'm not close to unravelling my own issues. I can say however to October that it sounds as if you are in your comfort zone with somewhat N people. And that you don't feel you deserve and can maintain a relationship with a 'normal' person. That a normal person would be boring (no drama?).
You are outing me along with yourself. I had kind of decided to lie down and give up on having friends. I realise from reading here that this is not really a healthy response.
Do you think it is ok to feel that you don't deserve a relationship without some kind of major drawback to it? Do you think that you bring such baggage to your relationships? Why is that? I am asking partly because I see it is wrong, and partly because I have the same beliefs myself. Maybe someone has an answer.
Plucky
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Oh God Selkie, I sometimes feel like you are my twin....
I do exactly the same thing. I am always very enthusiastic and the first to agree to making plans, but when that day comes around I will do anything to get out of doing whatever it is I am supposed to be doing. i will make up elaborate excuses or i simply will not answer my phone no matter how persistant the other person is. I am terrified of being alone and yet being with others does not fullfill something either, unless they are the same as my mother I guess. Often when I do go to where ever it is all I want to do is go home, and sometimes I fnd it very difficult to concentrateon the conversation. i don't think they know this because I have had a lifetime of pretending but it's like there is a disconnection somewhere.
Oh this is me to the "T". Mine is two-fold. Sometimes I make hasty decisions and tell people I want to do something when I really need to stay home. Other times I don't know what I really want to do and just agree. This has been a past problem but no longer do I do these things. I think I'd rather be by myself than with others. The need to be alone surpasses the need to be with people. Maybe when I find truthful, loving friends I might feel more inclined to be with them. That remains to be seen though.
I used to be terrified of being alone. I no longer am.
This week I even learned to work on my own very complex vehicle with my h. I basically figured out stuff that I thought only men could figure out. It blew me away to be able do these things. It also gave me confidence in myself. I changed out the air cleaner. And helped change out the fuel filter. If I had a way to access the fuel filter - sturdy step ladder - I would have done that myself as well.
I saw a show on TV the other day about a woman who lives out in the middle of nowhere. And I do mean no where - in the middle of a desert and isolated from people. She has her dogs and herself. Reminded me of my situation. I live in a very isolated town with my cat and dog. I never would have imagined living in this situation and liking it. But that is actually happening. I enjoy my time alone. I am learning to do everything I need to do on my own. Her main heat is propane and back up a wood cook stove. My main heat is a pellet stove and back up is electric.
same thing happens to me in therapy too. I didn't go this week. had to stay in and wait for a fridge freezer..... Even though I knew it wasn't coming (Long story) If the therapist touches on anything intimate My brain noticeably disconnects. i tell her when it is happening now so that we can try to build up a pattern around it. Sorry I'm going on about me but this thread touched something for me...
Hope you are OK
Spyralle x
I space out when a topic is approached which is sensitive. In the past I would skirt it. Now I deal with them head on no matter how painful. But I still do a space out. Then my t will steer the therapy back to the issue.
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But boyfriends are a different kettle of fish. As soon as I meet a guy I am interested in, an overwhelming enormous gigantic volcano of need erupts inside me and bowls me over. This is when my suppressed need reaches the surface... This is the me i detest. I have big problems with being needy, I think it's so ugly.
Selkie,
I can really relate to what you describe above. It seems so hard to explain but here goes: find something that grounds you, something that makes sense, something that you are *naturally* good at, something you've always wanted to try.....others may want to add to the list. When I felt ugly (truly ugly....not being told my thoughts were ugly) were when I was not doing what I loved even if that meant going on a roller-coaster ride or something. I had always wanted to try acting so I took a workshop a little over a year ago - midway through my life; most of the participants were younger. Well, I knew right from the first day that I had made the right decision. I skipped home, had big dreams of my academy award speech :lol: Through more workshops, I made friends with common interests and we still keep in touch and have many meaningful discussions. We don't meet because we are needy or lonely but because we have a goal, a dream, a passion and support each other. And with my recent traumatizing experience with a man, the support of my friends - and I didn't even have to ask for it - was there. I opted out of socializing with them and, instead, stayed at home giving myself lots of space for my feelings to come up and staying with the fear. It aint easy. You've got this board if you start getting really off the charts. I've even called crisis hotlines before thinking I was going to commit suicide. This last encounter that confused me/upset me made me see something: all these years I have felt no one was there to help me. In fact, they disrespected me, showed no care whatsoever, seldom - if ever- listened and when a sense of loss occurred, the wound would reopen so to speak, leaving me paralyzed and unable to be around anyone. So now I have joined a groups of trainees to volunteer for telephone crisis hotlines. I wonder - if you feel needy (esp with men) for example, if you could make some time to volunteer at a shelter for abused women or at an orphanage or senior citizen's home where you would most likely be needed and appreciated. Btw, Mr. Slick Words (as hopalong intimated) would have sent me much further down the spiral if I hadn't said this to myself: do what you love and it will take you to the right place
Good Luck To You, Beautiful Woman. Being by oneself is a sacred thing....but don't get isolated. We Love You!
Love,
Dawning.
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Thank you so much for your kind words Dawning!
I am doing really well these days. I feel like I am in the process of "healing"- I really do. I still have a bit to go as I feel like I need to regain my confidence, self esteem, and well, myself really. I lose myself very easily. I need to remind myself that I need to be taken into account. I still have niggly wierd things with my Mother, who is not an N, but treated me horribly as a child- I have so many mixed up emotions regarding her that I feel I need to address. I think this is where i get my low self esteem and I want it back.
I experience similar stuff with my counsellor. I am fine when I know our appointment is in the distance, but on the morning of the appointment, I just do not want to go. But when i do go, I get so much out of it. Why don't I want to help myself?
SF; sounds like you found yourself a good therapist too. I am very pleased I found mine. I believe that with her support I can transform my life and get rid of all that's not me.
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Selkie.... You go girl.....
i love that I am doing really well stuff. i remember you said to me a while ago that you wished that you were doing what I was doing.... I now wish that I was were you are... i am so proud to know you because despite the fact that you are finding it hard, you are sticking with your therapist and working... i think that you probably don't want to go because you are facing up to stuff that you have closed your eyes to before. I feel the same way, but it is a great feeling when you come out of a session feeling that something has made sense.....
I know just what that losing yourself feeling feels like. It's so horrible and it just comes from nowhere. stick with it Selkie we are all behind you 100 %...
Spyralle xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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October,
First of all, hugs to you. Sorry it took sp long to respond.
I can only share my experience re. exterminating all the Ns from my life. Yes, it was difficult, I didn't think and set about doing it with a plan. A moment came when it just seemed inevitable. N best friend, there you go out of the window. N mom, no more c**p from you. The rewards have been soooooo rich that I have never regretted.
I see that for some reason, you are an n magnet. May be because you are sweet and gentl eand trusting. I think the first step in becoming N free is to be AWARE of the damage they are doing to you. I feel that you may not have taken that step yet, and may be that is what life is asking of you? There will come a time when you will want to throw away the lifejacket and swim on your own, you will know when it comes, obviously it is not now.
Quote from: Marta on November 04, 2005, 05:56:13 PM
Quote
This friend has N traits - as all my friends do
What?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
What's going on, October? ALL your friends have N traits? No wonder you don't feel like going to social events, no wonder you are in self-imposed exile. When I got rid of my N friends, which was most of my inner circle, my life changed. For the better!
I don't know how. I know that will sound crazy. I used to have lots and lots of friends, but then I got ill. The normal ones ran for the hills, and the only ones left are my minister friend, who is sometimes lovely and sometimes really cruel, or B, who has given me her keys, but who does not understand personal boundaries (which to be honest is probably why I have her key), or another B, who is always there for me, but does have a tendency to gap search chances to tell her own story rather than listening to me, or another B, who talks 55 minutes to every 5 of listening. Or perhaps my next door neighbour, who cuts my grass for me sometimes, but is a controller par excellence.
The problem is, if I get rid of these people, who are essentally good people, but with N traits, I have nobody left but family. How can I expect only to have normal friends, when I don't even know what normal is?
Why throw away a lifejacket until you have a lifeboat to climb into? There are no lifeboats in sight - they all rowed away years ago. The only people left are the Nish ones, who may be weird, but lets face it I am not Mrs Normal. I am sure I have Ntraits myself, but hopefully not pathological ones. There are graduations of behaviour in all of us. I can now spot the most N people, such as my mother, who would most likely qualify as NPD. Other than that, I think it is difficult to eliminate contact with Nish people altogether. The best thing to do is to recognise their limitations, and keep within them. And also be aware of my own needs, and try to meet at least some of them. And I need to have some people to deal with.
If I went out tomorrow to a social event, and went through the whole room, and chatted to everyone in sight, I can guarantee that the person who ends up swapping phone numbers and being a friend, will be the most Nperson there. But I can also guarantee they will be the person who has something other than tv soaps to talk about.
Seems to me that you are also in awe of Ns, eh? I'm not an N and I don't talk soaps either. How 'bout that????
October, I can feel for you and feel your dilemma It must be so difficult being alone, especially with this nightmarish T situation you have to deal with. But how 'bout starting to make a list of all the reasons why you don't need Ns in your life? Hope you don't mind my gnetle prodding, forgive me if I'm off base.
Love, Marta