Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: SurviveAndGrow on November 03, 2005, 08:43:58 PM
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Hi All,
I am new to this board. It has been so great to find
this message board and a few other references (books) that helped me to put a
name on NS.
...
Any help?
SurviveAndGrow.
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Unfortunately, it seems we have been pretty
good sources of NS and MIL is holding on.
Harriet Lerner, in her book, "the DAnce of Anger"talks about stepping out of unhealthy patterns in relationships, and when you do, there are retaliatiory moves on the part of the other person to get you to go back to the pattern they were comfortable with (like you taking their s**t). So step out of the dance for a bit and watch from afar. Ekhart Tolle , who wrote "the Power of Now" calls it becoming the observer of yourself. Very powerful stuff.
Anyway, when you can watch what is going on every once in a while and not get caught up in it.....well, you won't get caught up in it as much!
How do you deal with family meetings? Is it possible to have a 'positive' meeting
when your N's either a) come and take your children and use them by making them
play with all the 'special' toys they brought or by exciting them so that they make
fun of them or b) go and speak with everybody presenting us as their wonderful
possessions or (if we do not go into their games) as the awful children who do
not let them see their grand-children (poor N's...).
Yuck yuck and more yuck. Sounds like my ex and how he treats our teenage children.
Should we make our presence at these meetings the shortest possible?
YES!!!
Should we simply avoid them?
Whenever possible.
- What? I cannot play with my grand-children?
"correct. When you are ready to (fill in the blank with more appropriate behavoir) we will consider another visit" Treat them like the poorly behaved infants they are.
- Oh, I know, you have a weird thing about these particular toys. We will not
play with them since you have this weird thing...
"thank you" (no explanation, remember, you don't care if MIL gets mad...you care about your kids)
- Oh, I am exciting the children? (looking so upset that you dared to make a remark)
"yes, you are. Please stop or we will have to end the visit" and again, who cares if they "look upset". remember, you don't care: You have a far more important job....taking care of your children and showing them a healthy way to do life!!
See, here's the deal: I don't know how old your children are, but you have a duty to STOP this legacy of toxic behavior and show your kids how healthy people do life. Don't be afraid of the "guilt trips"...let's face it , a guilt trip is a trip you get to accept or not. It's a choice.
If you believe you are acting from loving intention and doing the right thing....what's to feel guilty about? LET GO of trying to please everyone. You can't. Even your parents. Just let go. It's sad, I know, but living your life in FEAR just isn't any way to live.
OK< this is preaching to the choir, right?
Sorry. I'm sure I write this to help myself as much as others.....please forgive me.
- How do you deal with religious ceremonies (communion, baptism, bat-mitzvah, etc...)
that you organize for your children?
Well, I just don't. I may sound like a heathen here, but I have found most religious ceremonies are so fraught with status seeking/showing, OTHER people pleasing (not even the child being honored) that I forgo them entirely when at all possible.
I know it's nearly impossible, especially considering some of the bat mitzvahs my daughter has been to lately, to LIMIT the pomp and circumstance of these things....but I would pare it down to the child in question. Go with the flow, make your choice based on good sound information of the options you can live with.....and let the comments slide off your back like a duck....and try to have a good time despite the N dramas....
Because the best thing to do is be happy (drives the n's nuts). again...LET IT GO> your spouse and your children are your priority...not your MIL. She's got to deal with her own pain and her own nastiness....let her.
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Well, S&G,
you have an advanced N or two on your hands.
I try to always schedule the kids' events when I know my N can't be there, because there is a better supply elsewhere.
She does try to guilt trip me about it, but my glee is so great that she will be absent, that this does not bother me at all! I make sure to blatantly invite her, and then be really disappointed (return the guilt trip to her), so she can at least tell everyone at her other event how she sacrificed to be there, etc.
If that doesn't work, lie outright and say you thought you had invited them and why weren't they there.
Plucky
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I am the world's worst at saying 'no' and getting out of family events. I ended up in Bangladesh this year because of that. :lol: But there are some good bits to look back on now.
In general, I try to arrange to be already booked - for example, I have already arranged to have Christmas dinner with a friend, so that by the time the Nmum invitation is made, casually about a week before, I can say, sorry, we can't make that. It is not easy, but gradually the family gets used to your not being there.
My role was always to sit in the background, being ignored, but being there. I have changed that, gradually, and not 100% as yet, but at least the ground has shifted. They can no longer absolutely take for granted that I will be in the background. The trouble is, part of my role in the family is as a kind of peacemaker, diffusing tension when it arises, or changing the subject of conversation, generally deflecting away from trouble, because I spot it coming before other people seem able to. If I am not there, I am not sure what happens, to be honest, but it must be more fraught. Nobody ever says so, because they hate to admit that actually, I am not invisible, but essential to the family dynamic. But it is there, at some level.
It is surprising the number of rules the family will suddenly come up with to complain about your trying to not be somewhere. I was told by my brother several years ago that I had to go to Christmas dinner at my Nmums, because 'the children have to play together at Christmas.' Sounds good, but what he means is his children and my daughter, who have never actually played together, whether at Christmas or otherwise. The boys run riot, and my daughter looks on, and from time to time tries to join in with them. But it is hardly the picture of childhood bliss that my brother paints.
I would say, try to find what you are comfortable with, and forget trying to please other people. It cannot be done, and especially it cannot be done if they are N.
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Welcome S & G,
For me, it was actually because of my children that I finally found the courage to cut off the relationship with my n father and nabling mother (they are both deceased now). As my children got older, my father became even more difficult to be around, and I found my voice--I realized that the constant fighting between my father and I in their presence was not healthy for them. I also realized that he was not going to change his behavior, and probably only continue to get more difficult and I could no longer take the stress that created for me. After a visit to them (they lived about 6 hours away from us), I would be a wreck for days afterward. Life is too short and that kind of stress is not healthy. My kids were used to a home where there was no fighting or carrying on in a negative sense. To put them in that highly negatively charged environment was not healthy for them. Unfortunately, my xnh was of no help or support to me during those episodes with my father and thought I should be able to just get along (which was how he dealt with his n father).
I would recommend limiting your time with them, or if possible, cut it off entirely. It is hard to do, and they will try to drag you back into their dysfunctional lives, but in the long run, you will be so much better off.
As far as religious ceremonies, graduations, etc.--if they are not going to behave, I wouldn't include them. That is a special day for your child and they need to be able to enjoy it without a great deal of tension among the participants.
I wish you strength and light as you navigate through this very difficult situation.
Brigid
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Welcome S&G,
First, hugs to you and your family. I feel your pain and your frustation of what all N's bring to our lives.
I'm just starting myself, to limit, and eliminate contact with family N's. It's hard but if you have a group of loving friends to share in your families ceremonies that is a wonderful gift. As far as going to others and you will be attacked by N's, don't go or leave quickly.
You have received great advice and understanding above, I ditto everything they have said.
Glad to have you here! Seasons
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Hi All,
Thank you so much... Thank you so much!
I have been reading your answers and began thinking about what you all said. You're right.
It is not an easy time but it is a good time: We are going on the right way and now, we have
people who understand and relate. I relate to your stories too and I understand what you have
been going through or are going through.
...
Thanks,
SurviveAndGrow.
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You sound really understanding of your wife's feelings, and that is really tremendous to see - she is very fortunate to have you. I think you may be both surprised by the strength of grieving which she will go through - something a lot of us are still dealing with. When you lose the parent you thought you had and find that instead you have someone who does not have the love and empathy you imagined, but actually has little but self interest, that is hard. It is as bad as, if not worse than, losing a real, loving parent through death.
I would say, give yourselves time to learn about this, and don't try to rush anything. Grief is a terrible thing for anyone to go through, and to mourn the loss of a parent while seeing a zombie like form in thier place is not nice. It happens to me every time I visit my parents home, and it always hurts, even if they no longer see that.
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Thanks October,
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I'll take some time to think about what all of you wrote or are going to write.
Thank you !
SurviveAndGrow.
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My wife has been reading our posts too. She has been crying a little bit (a lot?). It is rather
complicated for us in the sense that she is torn between on one side, the realization that all the
things I was telling her or that we read are true and that we (she especially) have not been treated
well and on the other side, the hope (fantasy in the particular situation we are in?) of having 'normal'
relations with her parents, having our children having their grand-parents there, etc..., and
having to deal with guilt from our N's (they have no empathy for her at all in my opinion) and
realizing that she is worth something, that she never had any physical or emotional privacy,
that she is constantly mocked, that she is constantly reminded that she and our N's are
'so close. How can you do that?', etc...
We are helping each other a lot, I think. She helps me to put the N's away from my mind when
they are physically away (I am often traumatized). I (try to) help her view herself as somebody
worth something (she is great!) and help us build boundaries (she does not know what is
acceptable or not, what are 'normal' boundaries). It is still hard because after a few days
with our N's, we had events where we (almost) opened the boundaries (It is very hard on
my wife, I think).
SurviveAndGrow.
Hi S&G,
That was very similar to my h and I. He saw it and I had lived with it. I knew it wasn't right or correct or ??? but it was what I had lived with, survived through - it was normal for me. He pointed things out to me and I was resistant to seeing the whole picture. At that time we both didn't know about N-stuff just something wasn't right and my family's behavior towards me was extremely abusive. There was N-stuff and ritualized abuse.
I think what I am trying to say is just because you see it doesn't mean she can really see it. She sees what you have observed and pointed out to her. This is going to be a journey for her to recognize and accept the sickness in her family. You've opened the door for her to see the possibilities and the sick family dynamics she has lived with throughout her childhood.
You can tell and show her but until she gets it she wont be seeing what you are.
I can relate to where your wife is right now. I was there when I came to this board this summer. In a very short time I came to accept that there is no hope for any relationship with my Nmother, Nfather and Nbrother.
I have been in therapy for 17 years and finding out about the N stuff helped me understand a lot about why my therapy was taking so long. My Nmother also has OCPD and that adds to her dysfunction. Finding and accepting the N link was the missing piece to my huge jigsaw puzzle. I am finally seeing the whole picture and family dynamics and realizing I am never going back home. Going home for the holidays or any occasion will never be an option again.
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I saw a line on something on the internet the other day, which said; 'Home is what catches you when you fall.'
By this definition, my own home is with my friends - people like B who gave me the key to her house to make life easier for me. Or here, because this place has stopped me from falling so many times.
On the other hand, I am the person who catches my parents when they fall. And my two brothers as well. This is normal for ACONs (adult children of narcissists.) We look after the emotional needs of our parents.
Other people might remember me saying about a difficult situation I had recently at the bank, when I found that my account had been closed, and all the money taken. I sorted it out, eventually, and later told my parents about it. My Nmother's reaction was to say; 'It is a good job that wasn't me!' and dad echoed that with; 'Its a good job that wasn't your mother; she would never have been able to cope with that. She would have gone to pieces and got very upset.' All the time I am standing there thinking 'Excuse me???!!! Am I invisible?'
It is very difficult to break out of a whole world view and into another, with more connection with reality. I don't know if you have children or not, but your wife might find it useful to consider her mothers actions in that light. If she had a child, would she treat it as she has been treated by her mother. That might help to clarify the picture a little for her.
Please do encourage your wife to post whenever she feels ready to. But not before. :)
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S&G,
I would agree with what Sally said--your wife probably is not able to really see what her family make-up is yet. You don't have the same history and attachment to those people that she does, so it is much easier for you to see their true behavior as an outsider. It would be similar to the people outside of a love relationship who can see how wrong those two people are for each other, or that one is being abusive, but the other just keeps hoping for change. Your wife is hoping for change. Sadly, she would have to wait a lifetime for that to happen.
I would invite her to post here if she is comfortable doing that. What may also help is to get her some of the books and on-line articles that have been recommended by Dr. G and others here. Therapy is what helped me to come to the realization of what I had dealt with with my parents and my xh. It is also what is healing me from the abuse--so I highly recommend it if you can find a good therapist. Understanding the disorder and how it manifests itself, is the best way to begin to heal from the affects of living with it, imo. It was so helpful to me to find out where all that crazy-making behavior came from, and that I wasn't the crazy one.
Blessings,
Brigid
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Hello S&G,
Welcome to you and your wife. I wanted to write earlier but real life got real busy just now.
Your situation is just so familiar. First I want to say how wonderful it is that you both have each other to support YOUR relationship TOGETHER. I like to think in terms of relationships and households esp. given the divide and conquer tactics that used to rule in my family.
I really identify with your wife because a. all my life I knew my dad was, hmm, domineering, b. I had difficulty standing my ground, c. it was hard to be in the middle between my spouse and my Ndad. I was so used to placating my dad and also getting pressure from my mother to continue to placate him. It was never spoken outright, just expected. It would make my H very frustrated. I knew he was right but I also knew what I would get trying to stand my ground. We had to "bring up" my parents and make them realize we are adults with our own lives and decisions.
My H was fairly patient or should I say familiar with the problem because his father is also N. But he was encouraged to stand up for himself because he (H) was expected to take care of everyone. In essence, he was the male head of the household esp when his Ndad had his little temper tantrums. So he was used to taming wild animals.
Anyway, I have to say kudos to your wife for learning to stand up for herself. She is probably going through the horror of realizing the truth of how things *really* work in her own family. Like a lot of us here, we had some healthy denial going on to help us get through it all when growing up. This work of hers is really preferable to pushing you forward as the "bad guy". Standing together is really the best. It is painful, (I'm still in mourning myself about the dad I never had) but a really helpful T told me it was like childbirth. Kinda scary, kinda painful, but something new and wonderful will result. It may surprise her to find she is really a stronger person than she was told by her parents and/or conditioned into believing.
One thing you can count on with Ns is that they will always give you another swing at the plate when they pitch their craziness at you. It's helpful to think of stock phrases to repeat when you feel off balance. Also, I do not, DO NOT, trust my kids with the extreme Ns of my family. I will think up the lamest excuses to get out of handing them over. My psycho NSIL is truly a danger to my children. Another relative is more blunt and tells her outright "I don't trust you." Then she makes her usual noises. So what? The welfare of kids is more important than her childish feelings.
I would encourage your wife to get therapy or do some self-help workbook or something that will help her recognize triggers, tricky situations that are esp. difficult for her. Get some coping strategies and a game plan for dealing with your Ns. It helps. Don't try to be her coach or T yourself. Play your position and be her incredibly supportive H and focus on your goals for your family. If you think about where the two of you want to go as a couple/family of your own, this won't drive you so crazy. It will be demoted to distraction.
Hope this helps. And i saw on another thread that she is writing herself. That's wonderful too. It sounds like you both have a lot of love to build on. Take care, MP
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Hi S&G,
I know I'm coming to this late but here's my perspective.
You have one responsibility and that is the well being of your wife and kids. It is not your crazy MIL and it is not her extended family.
We only have one life here on earth and we are often forced to make hard choices because of the craziness of others. Sometimes that choice is to cut off the people who are ruining our years together. Forget the guilt and the threats and all the rest of the manipulations. The only thing you should consider is what is best for your wife and children and to hell with the whackos. I know it is hard but some of us have been forced to take that step and you know what, its better without them. Its not perfect but its better.
I would much rather look back when I'm eighty knowing I did the hard thing at the time which gave my family the maximum happiness and chance for mental health instead of looking back regretting that I allowed people with serious problems to drag me and my family down with them.
Let 'em say what they want, if you do the right thing, the relief and freedom you will gain will far outweigh anything they can do to you.
mudpup
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Thank you Miss Piggy,
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You really helped a lot. All.
Thank you,
SurviveAndGrow.
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S and G: I am sending a blessing for clarity your way. I feel your confusion entirely. Life is confusing, yet love is simple. That is how I figured out my ex was such an N. Nothing was simple with him, it was all anger and drama and confusion and (mostly) MY FAULT.
In your case, I think LOVE would say: "do what you need to do, follow your dreams, you two have chosen each other, you have chosen to parent these children, we do not NEED you to do anything but be happy. We know this is a confusing choice for you, but we know you two can do the right thing and we will support your choice, because we love you."
I don't think you are dealing with love here. And that's what I needed to know in my life to move forward. Lots of N's use the word love to control ,as a matter of fact, I think my ex interchanges those words....love, control.....same thing.
Love is not need, it does not control. It accepts. Move from love. Act from love. Anything that says to you "act from fear, move in confusion, defend yourself, explain yourself, take care of me (from an adult) and my feelings"........well, that's not what I want my life to be about, and from what I hear, neither do you two....and it sure as heck is not what loving is about. Your MIL supposedly loves her daughter, your wife. So what does love really look like to you, and is this it?
On the subject of letting your wife take over here on this board, I think that is a nice thing to do. She is the one with the N history (you are more recently attached to it), and it sometimes IS a little difficult for two people to try and get support for even ALMOST the same viewpoint.
And on the subject of her moving toward independence at her own speed (which may not be yours)....Yup, you know the answer already. Love. Accept and let the love flow. At least you two have it together (and those lucky kids!)
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Hi S&G,
I'd like to second what Mum said and that is, your wife has to go at her own pace. Let her know your expectations for your relationship, what you can accept and what you can't. Brainstorm solutions to managing specific trouble spots. I know I squirmed and whined trying to find a path of least resistance and maintain the status quo...fortunately, my psycho SIL really pulled a fancy one that sent my Ndad over the edge and they proceeded to duke it out. As a result, we no longer have holidays together. Merry Christmas! :D Love that. My H is estatic.
To answer your question:
Miss Piggy, a thing that I am thinking of right now from your post... I have been backing
off significantly from the relations with our N's. Part of it because they have been
pushing me away ('I'm sick of speaking to you on the phone', 'Stop saying 'We'',
'You should not be the one to do (or say) this, she should', etc...), part of it because
I am thinking that they are my wife's parents and she should be the one dealing with them.
Geesh, do they really say these things to you? Toxic!! You know, I thought about the phrase that is often overlooked in marriage ceremonies. Something about a union and let no one put it asunder. That is, you and your wife are a "package deal". Just a thought.
Do you think it is OK or should I are rather be more 'protective' or more 'together'? It seems
to be working (note that I love the image of taming our N's like wild animals).
Well, I don't really know enough about the situation. I can tell you that in the case of my H and I, it was really helpful that he backed me up as it was my family that is so difficult (because they are closer geographically). We would have similar issues with his, but they live farther away. Now that I think of it, I have read in more than one book on the subject of Ns etc that the best way to deal with truly destructive Ns IS to move away. And they know it. In a way, their brains only know what is right in front of them and you would become out of sight, out of mind. No supply. But your wife needs to buy in on this. Otherwise it will become an issue between you instead of working for you both. It sounds like she has a ways to go.
But she really does need to speak up for herself, even if only to back you up in principle. They need to hear whatever you both are putting out from her. We had a nasty showdown with my Ndad (actually two really notable ones). Real firebreathers. The first one my H did the talking and I told my dad "it's important to H, so it's important to me". That is, we stand together. The second one I did the talking and my dad blasted me and my H followed up. "it's important to MP, it's important to me, we would hope you would care about it too." This last matter was about not being required to stay overnight at their house and sleep on a cheap sofa bed because I was nine months pregnant. Yep. Big inconvenience for HIM that I didn't do this. ??? That's the level of BS we deal with to give you an idea. And H would return the favor when his dad pulled some inappropriate stuff, like handing me his dirty underwear when we all shared a vacation home. Uh, no. I'm not your mother. H had to gently scold him like a toddler. For some reason, this works for them.
Really, I guess my answer is, there is strength and safety in numbers. Don't let them divide and conquer. As for the job opportunity, make sure you are moving towards something you want, not away from something you don't want.
You know, communication is the most important thing for a healthy, workable relationship and it sounds like you and your wife have it. Note I didn't say "constant agreement". Take it one step at a time, that is, decide on a game plan to deal with mr and mrs Toxic, execute the play, do a very short post game analysis, then play with your kids. :)
Hugs, MP
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Get some coping strategies and a game plan for dealing with your Ns. It helps. Don't try to be her coach or T yourself. Play your position and be her incredibly supportive H and focus on your goals for your family. If you think about where the two of you want to go as a couple/family of your own, this won't drive you so crazy. It will be demoted to distraction.
mp, I love your thinking here. I love the sports analogy. I love, 'play your position'. You go girl!
S&G, hear, hear!
Plucky
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Hey now!
Thanks Plucky! Actually I'm back here because I just realized that previously I advised S&G NOT to use a "strength in numbers" strategy and then just now I said to find strength in numbers. Oy! :oops:
So just to clarify, I meant that we should stick together with our supportive SOs. (above) And we should not seek to convince other family members outside our own household that N is an N, etc.
In fact, we shouldn't work on convincing anyone but use our knowledge to empower ourselves. If we are in a marriage and anyone who is outside the marriage is coming between us, then that's a problem and it needs to be addressed just between the two of you to set some priorities, N or not.
I hope this clears up where I'm coming from...thanks. it's late and I'm blathering. I'd better sign off now! MP (mistake prone!)
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The best advice I ever received about how to handle my Nfamily members was to treat them like they are senile and therefore not making sense and possibly crazy. That is when everything changed with my Nfamily member relationships. Before that I struggled, resisted and fought against their abusive behavior.
I am now free of those relationships and still treat them as if they are crazy - demented, looney, and half-baked. :lol: :lol: :lol: