Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: CeeMee on November 13, 2005, 10:12:54 PM
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Some of the effects of growing up without llimbic resonance and regulation (attachment and synchronization) are isolation, emotional damage, unpredictable violence, and the like. This is taken from the book General Theory of Love and based on studies done on monkeys but is true of humans to some degree.
I suspect that another symptom is an inability for some victims to later resonate and regulate with others.
(How insidious! Lacking developmental attachment and synchronization could possibly create a permanent disability since being able to resonate and synchronize with another is the first step towards recovery.)
My curiosity is this.......What would this particular disability (the inability to attach and synchronize with another) look like in terms of day to day behaviors?
What are some other behaviors you might see as a result of one growing up without the requisite attachment and synchronization with another?
The reason I bring this up is that although I don't believe that I was deprived of limbic R&R growing up, I believe I have a hard time attaching and synchronizing with others, almost an outright resistance. I'd describe myself as a non-conformist, radical thinking, lone ranger who frequently (though not always) finds herself up against the world.
I see myself as "different" but wonder if in the context of the questions above, is this what those behaviors might look like?
I welcome everyone's thoughts or opinions on this.
CeeMee
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Hi Ceemee,
Since I'm shooting a lot from the hip these days on the board, I'll keep going! 8)
I don't know what some of the terms mean that you refer to. (OK, there's your first warning signal about this post!) But if what the author is referring to is some kind of "attachment disorder" as a result of the lack of whatever developmental need not being filled, then I can tell you what I have observed from three different cases in our community.
One child is an eastern european orphan who was put in one of those warehouse type orphanages as a baby. She was adopted at age three. She basically survived because she screamed her head off until an adult in charge would come pay attention to her. Many other babies died due to "failure to thrive". They were not held at all. They may have been fed, but not a lot. I marvel at this little girl's strength. She is ADHD and has a rea; deficit of social skills. She is constantly in survival mode. In the classroom, as in the warehouse, she must monopolize the adult (the teacher in this case) or she feels she will die. She does not do well in groups. Everything is a competitive situation. Very primal. She has come a long way, but still lacks social skills. She will create chaos to draw attention to herself. She has to.
Next case. A young boy whose mother was mentally ill and committed suicide. Father is quite emotionally and verbally and possibly physically abusive. This boy has no boundaries and does not recognize other people's boundaries at all. Wanders. Goes into people's stuff. Doesn't look people in the eye. Doesn't track to the daily schedule. This boy was not nurtured at all. Very bright and artistic too. Turned hostile in adolescence because the other kids shunned him.
Next case. Adopted boy of drug abusing mother who sells her babies. He was not held in the early months. Very clinging as a baby. Very very oppositional as a young boy and esp. with women. Very aggressive. Did not want to go to school where they have rules and expectations.
Maybe this isn't not what the authors are referring to. But the kids above have a real different lens to look through when viewing the "others" in their environment. I think it goes beyond the range of normal struggles of relating. The two orphans are, in my amateur mind, candidates for "attachment disorder" diagnosis. Others on the board might have more to say on this.
And I'm wondering if what you are describing in yourself is "fear of engulfment". I am not a joiner and when I feel pulled into a group, I like it initially, then feel like I'm drowning in expectations and conformity. I didn't know what this was called until recently and googled it. It was eye-opening.
Well, again, I'm not an expert or anything. I hope this helps a little. MP
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Ceemee,
When I was reading your post, before I saw MP's, I was thinking the same thing regarding the many children who were warehoused into orphanages in the (at that time) "Iron Curtain Countries." I remember 20/20 doing a number of stories regarding the very tragic situation of these children in, I think, Bosnia?? So many of them were suffering from the inability to attach to another human because they had not been held and nurtured as infants and toddlers. I believe the prognosis is very poor that they will ever be able to relate to other humans. They have no emotions, feelings, conscience, boundaries, or sense of right and wrong, and would be more akin to animals acting out of instinct rather than humans who know they are part of a community and act accordingly.
Every time I watched those stories on 20/20, it broke my heart and I could not imagine what kind of monster could have made such a decision to do this to children.
Brigid
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There was a story on W5 this past Sat. eve about the 100,000 orphans in the Ukraine and the awful conditions of the "warehouses" (they didn't use that word but it sure fits)....mostly focussing on a woman who adopted a child and went on to try to help some of the other children by starting a summer camp.
They also talked about the kids...once they turn 18 and how they are just put out into society and left to survive, without any assistance. Most of them end up in jail or in prostitution very soon afterward.
Again....this seems to proove the point......no attachment to anyone.....no empathy.....no problem committing crimes......no self worth.....nothing to keep a person from selling their own body.....(no one to turn to for help anyway).
They touched on the issue of abuse, asking some of those in prison how many of them had been "hit" as children. Lot's of hands raised.
It's so sad. :( :(
The good news is.....their new Prime Minister seems to think he will be able to "solve the problem within three years". This might not happen but it does give hope that at least he is concerned and wants to see changes that might improve the lives of these children. I hope so. I don't know how the problem of growing up without attachment will ever be solved though. :( :( or how abuse in institutions will ever cease.
:( :x :twisted: Sela
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Although I don't have any real imput to this thread... I just wanted to say that I find it heartwrenching, gutwrenching even how so many children this happens to.
I did read "A Road Less Travelled" and he says that massaging a new born baby's back is one of the best things you can do for their self esteme.
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I used to work with children with varying types of developmental disabilities and have watched that movie about the effect of lack of "mothering" on baby monkeys. It was very sad, as the movie showed the monkeys as very aggressive, agitated adults. Unfortunately, sometimes, along with emotional problems, there are problems with processing sensory information. As infants, humans (and monkeys) organize their nervous system in response to stimulation. If the proper kind of stimulation is lacking, it can really hurt the developing brain.
Sometimes adoptive parents find this to be a real problem with their children, especially if sensory deprivation was extreme. These kids often have attachment disorders and also sensory processing problems. They may be hypersensitive to different forms of touch and textures. They may have balance problems and problems with coordinated movement and, of course, academic problems.
Early treatment is important.
None of us probably suffered from the extreme sensory deprivation that warehoused children do. However, certainly maltreatment of an infant and young child causes problems. Some people are able to overcome that, though, especially if they are determined to achieve emotional health. I have friends who really endured horrid physical and emotional abuse, and went on to become mature stable adults. Why some people can and some can't probably depends on a multitude of factors.
Gail
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Interesting stuff, here.
I see a lot of children in my work. (um, pretty much all I see). Some of my most challenging students are ones whose parents are inattentive....they are wealthy and buy them everything, but they never spend any time with them. I wonder if that started immediately at birth?
I know that my mother massaged all of us as babies. We have good muscle tone, which I thought was a result to that, and we all like touch, but it's funny to think it may have also had a positive effect our our self concept. It makes sense, I guess.
As a mom, too, I cringe to think of infants even minutely ignored, never mind forgotten entirely.
I had a student who was one of those warehoused orphans, from Russia, I believe. She was animal like in many of her behavoirs...but she improved. She had been kept in a crib until she was 5 or 6. This girl improved over a few years with lots of attention from her adoptive parents. I have no idea how she is now, as they moved, but I like to think she kept improving, but she may have hit a plateau, of course, like that girl in the 60's they found in L.A. who had been kept in a cage.
Anyway, this Russian girl was "adoptable". What happens to the ones that people don't rescue?
I also have 2 students (now siblings) who were crib mates (2 years apart, not related) in such an orphange. They both have learning disabilities but those are not severe, and a pheonominal mom who really is an angel for them.
I worried myself, with my son, when he was born and the hospital staff kept him away from me soon after birth because his "temperature dropped". He was only gone less than a few hours but I was tormented....and terribly worried that we would not bond because of this... Of course, I have perspective now, but I wonder about those babies who have no one to be missing them and so in love with them....
I wonder what degree of early attachment matters when talking about later social behavoirs?? My many siblings all demonstrate varying degrees of sociability and compliance with authority, etc....and we all had the same parents, albeit at different stages in their lives. I wonder how much of it is just "who we are" as spirits/souls? Why do some of these kids in these human warehouses scream for survival and others give up and die?
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I think my brother and I are great examples of how differently two people can react to the same degree of love and attention from parents (nearly non-existent). I am someone who always sought out touch from others--not always in an appropriate way as a teenager--but I longed to be hugged and kissed. I realize now that I'm in a very loving relationship, how devoid my marriage was of touch and how much I missed it. I'm sure I made up for some of that by hugging and holding my children as much as possible.
My brother, on the other hand, has, to my knowledge, only had one significant relationship in his life and that was 35 years ago. The only attachment he has is to his animals. He has never cared about me or my children and only paid attention to our parents when they became infirm and needed medical intervention. He has no friends and does not socialize at all except in work related situations (for most of his career he worked in IT, so didn't have many social opportunities for work).
I could not imagine living as he does. I would shrivel up and die without the human connections in my life.
Brigid
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Hi Brigid
In some ways it sounds the same as me and my brother, but this is not a good example because the difference is that for the first year of my life I was with Mum and my bio dad and for the first year of his life he was with Mum and his bio dad. My brother also works in IT, has no friends, does not socialize and the same as you, I could not imagine living as he does. Mum and me were talking earlier this year, and she asked "How do you get confidence".... I said by going out and doing things, but it's also them that need to let him go out and do things, let him make friends, let him have a life.
I think a good example is my bio dad and his sister. Now I don't know his sister very well, however after my granddad's funeral, we wrote for a couple of years until it petered off. She was the complete opposite of him, very warm, very kind and I got the impression that she was a nice person. She was married and had 2 children. She worked hard and seemed to make the most of her life. Bio dad goes round gruding, blaming etc all the time, divorced, doesn't work etc. Their background is very sad, their Mum was schizophrenic and their Dad an alcoholic. Bio dad says that when he was in his teens his Mum got taken into hospital but I have no idea how much of what he says is true.
Funnily enough my bio dad asked me pretty much the same question towards the end of last year. "Why is my sister not the same as me then, if it's down to not being nurtured as a child." I feel it's the strength in ourselves and we learn different coping mechanisms to take us through life. My bio dad didn't take responsibility and learnt to blame, whereas his sister did take responsibility and changed her direction. I think sometimes we can look at a situation from a young age and decide that it's not what we want.
H&H xx
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Hello all,
Well, I guess temperament plays a role in how we respond to our environment and early parenting. Some parents do everything "right" and the child still has problems and vice versa. Human beings are so complicated!
I think many people, esp. abused people who only experience hurt and disappointment, find so much solace in love for animals. I am encouraged that Brigid's brother gave his care and attention to animals (I'm assuming he treats them well???). Lots of other kids take out their anger on animals. So I see a sign of hope in a discouraging situation if a person is able to feel value and unconditional love from their animal companions. It's their way out of the hurt and into a safer world.
There's a wonderful article in Chicken Soup for the Teenaged Soul about a kid who was so isolated by his peers he would sneak into the local Seaworld or something like that to visit with dolphins. His whole career grew out of his connection with those dolphins and he became very knowledgable. Other dolphin people (for lack of a better term) recognized his unusual connection with distressed dolphins during rescues, etc. As an adult he returned to speak to small groups of troubled kids about his experiences and let them pet the dolphins. A true story that is pretty cool.
Oops, I think I may have gone off topic again, but the recent posts brought this to mind and I wanted to share. Hugs, MP
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MP,
I am encouraged that Brigid's brother gave his care and attention to animals (I'm assuming he treats them well???).
Yes, absolutely. Our extreme love of animals was probably the only thing we ever had in common. He volunteered at the Humane Society in his area for many years and fostered kittens as well. Since his dog died at age 16 last year, however, he has not replaced her and is no longer attached to anything that I am aware of. How does someone thrive in that environment? I can't imagine.
Brigid
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Thanks for all those thoughts. Yes, the studies and experiences with orphans are heartbreaking. IMO how one responds is very much determined by dna. Some of us are closer to the fight response and some of us closer to the flight response. I've always been closer to the fight response even though I may have been scared ****less inside.
Miss Piggy, thanks for that lead on "fear of engulfment" I am fascinated by the term and will go google it right now.
CeeMee
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Hey CeeMee,
The reason I bring this up is that although I don't believe that I was deprived of limbic R&R growing up, I believe I have a hard time attaching and synchronizing with others, almost an outright resistance. I'd describe myself as a non-conformist, radical thinking, lone ranger who frequently (though not always) finds herself up against the world.
I see myself as "different" but wonder if in the context of the questions above, is this what those behaviors might look like?
You are fascinating to me. I can sense in your posts that you are analytical and radical thinking. I love that about you! If you don't mind my asking, are you particularly conflicted about being "different?" Why do you think you are so "resistant?" Is it possible your non-conformity and lone ranger view of yourself is somehow shaped by what your parents think of you? I don't know much of your background, but I recall a past post expressing concern that you might be an N. Could you share the source of your doubt? I'm intrigued by you. I relate to you as well. I think I get where you're coming from with your line of questioning and your method of research. Maybe by gaining an understanding of you, I may gain more insight about myself.
With regards to your thread question, I've examined those monkey studies in various psyche courses in college but it is the insidious nature of the abuse that concerns me the most. Not always are babies completely abandoned, physically abused, starved, alarmed, etc. Sometimes that insidious abuse is manifested in ways that a typical health practitioner may not recognize. The mother who "over-Faberizes" (a hot topic today) her baby, letting it cry indefinitely and into a uncontrolled frenzy. On the opposite end of the spectrum, there's the mother who overmedicates her child in an attempt to keep others from knowing what a neglecting parent she is, drugging the baby into silence and sleep. It's insidious because you see the sleeping baby and you have no idea that the mother isn't attentive or caring, instead selfish and pretentious, wanting others to believe things are okay, when she's hardly deals with/soothes the child at all. It's abusive, but difficult to detect. But I would imagine the damaging effects are similar. It's about intention.
Tif
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Hi Tif,
Thanks for those words. I am really heartened by the fact that you feel you can relate to some of what I say. That makes me feel less alone in this world.
Well, your post has really got me thinking. OH MY GOSH... my eyes nearly dropped out of their sockets when I googled and read up on "ferberizing"
I nearly blew a gasket! Warning.........I am about to have an emotional moment folks..turn your eyes if you are sensitive.
That is the sickest crock of sh... I have ever heard. The guy should be hung by his b... and left screaming and crying for twenty minute intervals and given the requisite pat on the back till he shuts his fu.. ing mouth.
There.. got that out of my system. I'm sorry but I had to vent. What I read was so upsetting. For those of you who do ferberize your babies, please understand this is not a personal attack. My issue is with the idiot so called professional who came up with this crap to make a name for himself.
Needless to say, I totally disagree. My children slept in our family bed and were breastfed on demand till they were ready to stop and move to their own bed, and those two factors are what I credit MOST (aside from their great father) for my children being bright, loving, caring and well adjusted (despite their crazy mother).
But this thread got me wondering even further. When you wrote about a mother's inattentiveness in regards to her infant, I thought, how would one know if this happened to him/her as an infant? Unless a family member witnessed it and told the adult later in life that his/her mother wasn't the best caretaker during those precious years, it could remain a part of the unknowns that ultimately shapes us.
Now if I were to guess about my own infancy, I would say that my mother probably did give me the best care that she could raising 6 children born roughly a year plus apart. Could there have been inattentiveness? Certainly. When I think of the huge effort involved in raising my own 2 children, I imagine that it must have been VERY difficult for my mom with 6, coupled with the fact that she had significant emotional problems throughout.
Don't get me wrong, I am not blaming my mom. I accept that some of the problems that I face today could be related to my infancy and childhood (in fact I am certain of it) and not all of it is just dna and chemical imbalance. At the same time, I recognize that this is my problem to solve and blaming her won't get me any closer to solution. Over the years, as our relationship has improved, I have learned more about my mother's suffering. Things she is not proud to admit but does so to take responsibility. She continues to pay the price as my siblings have all had strained relations with her on and off for some time.
I'm still digesting all of this, so I am not sure what else to think about it, but I do think you bring up a very interesting point and one that I hadn't thought about.
In answer to some of your other questions, Tif, I think that I am conflicted at times but not about being different, but rather the condition of lonliness at being different. In my community, my differentness keeps me apart from the christians because with me, every conversation doesn't lead to a religious discussion or affirmation or bible quote. At work, my differentness keeps me apart from those who love the politics and game playing that I detest and am not very good at. I don't have a crowd that I go to lunch with to share gossip to know what is going on in the organization, so I'm usually the last to know anything. My radicalness will often lead me to say things that I shouldn't. I've countered negative comments at work regarding minority groups or challenged biases only to be met by shocked silence, awkwardness and a reluctance for those folks to be comfortable around me in the future.
I could go on and on. Sometimes, in a sick Freudian way, I think I purposely do these things to push people away from me. It's almost as if I hone right in on those differences between us and highlight them to be sure that we don't resonate. One might say, but these sound like "good" or "acceptable" differences, but in the real world, they cause one to be marginalized. In my experience, VERY few people in the world would risk the possibility of being odd man out, even if it meant, standing up for what you believe. It is so much easier to rationalize and move with the crowd for all the benefits, resonance and peace of mind it brings.
At one point, I thought that I did have NPD but after learning more about it I am not sure. If NPd is as heartless as described here and other sites, then that's not me. I have great empathy for others and have less frequent bouts with self-centeredness (althoug this post wouldn't indicate that) as I've dealt with my anxieties and insecurities over the years with meds and therapy.
One thing that I am exploring further, is the possibility that it may be that I have some form of boderline personality disorder which keeps me isolated.
Does any of this resonate with you Tif?
CeeMee
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CeeMee: I wrote the following in a personal message to a friend. I’ll dump it here unedited to see if you think I’m crazy, an N, borderline, sociopath, schizotypal (sp?) or perhaps just someone who enjoys being an introvert with a brain. I was writing about the practice of social scapegoating:
“They’re stupid, frightened, guilty themselves, protecting their images of their own parents, grouping together in mutual fear. I HATE group mentality. I pretty much hate groups actually. I won’t join. Any. None! Not even dancing. Not any more. Everywhere I go I see people as conscious animals with little or no consciousness about why they do what they do. I don’t hate them. But I don’t like being with them and luckily for me, I don’t feel any need to be liked or with people. Deep introvert! I really am happy by myself or with H. Or with a handful of people I like. I don’t give a flying fig about what people think as long as they leave me alone.”
Writing on this board is as close as I get to other people, apart from that handful. And is there something ‘wrong’ with me? I don’t think so. Who said I have to resonate with others? I find most ‘others’ totally draining. I understand that extroverts are apparently in the majority (though goodness knows how anyone decided that) and introverts have to adapt to an extrovert society to function (to work, get food etc). It doesn’t mean that introverts are mad, bad or wrong though. It does mean that sometimes when I speak my mind, like now, that others will go silent on me, simply because they don’t understand and feel threatened. Is that my problem? Maybe. If I want to ‘fit in’ (and sometimes it does seem – *seem*, mind you – necessary), if I want to conform and be accepted then maybe I should keep my big mouth shut. I guess it’s finding your own balance between what you are like as a personality and what others will accept. Lucky for me I don’t live in an area where any kind of religion dominates. Not sure I could cope with that without becoming labelled a heretic, witch, infidel, unbeliever, mad, bad, wrong etc etc. Labels/words – can be useful to identify stuff about ourselves (e.g. introvert has become valuable to me) and they can also be incredibly dangerous. The DSM must be one good example of that. What's the objective of the DSM? That's a good conversation.
CeeMee, are you lonely because you crave others’ company? Are you lonely? Or are you confused about having different values and beliefs to those around you? It would be a nicer world if we all did get along, but heck, we don’t do it perfectly, and it’s mainly people in groups – not ‘different’ individuals – who seem to me to cause trouble and strife. (Welllll....it's probably 'different' individuals with dictatorial leanings that lead those groups, but that is yet another conversation.)
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Hey CeeMee and all!
Sure CeeMee I see a lot of you in me, especially in being the one who (intentionally??) goes out to be different from the Group per se. I express this in my dress and the overall way I present myself. Also, in the real world, I really have to bite my tongue tin order to avoid falling out with people over political debates and when family and co-workers want to participate in game-playing and gossip, the conversation tends to go flat. I hate gossiping about real people and I tend to change the subject to TV or fashion. I am not interested in debasing or scapegoating and can sometimes be "too honest" when I should be professional or demure or whatever the social situation requires. But I hate to confront, so if I feel myself getting into mirky waters with my "different" points of view within my familial and social circles, it's my cue to withdraw. I'm with Portia in saying that writing on this board is as close as I get to other people, apart my from my best friend and husband. And that others can be really fricking draining.
With regard to what Portia said:
It would be a nicer world if we all did get along, but heck, we don’t do it perfectly, and it’s mainly people in groups – not ‘different’ individuals – who seem to me to cause trouble and strife. (Welllll....it's probably 'different' individuals with dictatorial leanings that lead those groups, but that is yet another conversation.
I support what G. Peck says in "People of the Lie" about an individual's propensity to regress in group scenarios. Somehow, the more people present, the less responsible we become for our naughty words and actions. It's the major m. o. of these reality game shows so prolific in the U. S. right now. It is quite fascinating the way your morals and sense of responsibility shrink when peer pressure or maybe the mere presence of other individuals are on the line. We definitely regress in groups.
And sure, CeeMee, in solving some of the "problems" of your infancy, you may have developed a mechanism to help you cope with the reality of attachment. Maybe you are ambivalent with regards to it because you could do "with it" and sometimes honestly, "without it." I've come to accept this about myself recently. I was even beginning to look at my sweet, doting husband as someone I could live without if I had to. (We were in the unresolved throes of a serious debate, and I was losing). We're okay now, and I'm glad we know how to argue and resolve and compromise, but for the first time in 8 years, I could see myself being okay with just me and my little pee wee (5 yo).
I can remember years of my life where it looks like I took time off from people and "hunkered down" like a hermit for about a year and then later re-connected and "caught up on" important relationships. Is that what people do? I lost contact with all my college friends and now it's time for our ten year reunion. I wonder if they think I fell of the face of the earth or what? Anyway, I know I can resonate with people, but the weight of it really causes me anxiety. I've been a social butterfly before and now, I've locked myself away for the past four years, seeing a very limited amount of people in a typical day. I'm still not sure where it comes from. So I can relate to not really wanting to and not really knowing why. Maybe we are just introverts by nature.
BTW, you know how you get this visual image of someone when you read their posts. Well, I do, anyway. I used to see you as someone sturdy on the exterior, who wore dark clothes and short cropped hair, someone who sits in a library surrounded by books, dark, official ones (I apologize if this is exactly how you are, my point won't be as effective if you are), but now, (after that last post,) I see you as this creature of light with long flowing tresses, innocent and youthful and outdoors. You didn't go on too much about yourself, please share more. I definitely resonate with who you are.
Tif
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Hello all,
Thanks for those replies. Where to begin???
Tiff, so much of what you say resonates with me. In fact, because of our discussions, I'm feeling like I am actually getting some clarity on the issue.
The Peck book sounds interesting. I am going to buy the book and read it next. Thank you for that lead. Isn't G. Peck the guy who recently passed?
Tiff wrote: "Maybe you are ambivalent with regards to it because you could do "with it" and sometimes honestly, "without it."
"I took time off from people and "hunkered down" like a hermit for about a year and then later re-connected and "caught up on" important relationships.
Is that what people do?"
You are right on here. This is probably the crux of my whole issue. I am not the type of person that fits into a neat little box or diagnosis or pattern. I am an extrovert who loves meeting new people, but I keep few close friends and I do spend periods as you say "hunkered down." until I feel that urge to have company again.
Something interesting that Miss Piggy introduced to me is the concept of "fear of engulfment" This is a term I'd not heard before. When I googled it, I was amazed at how well it described me. It may be that when the drain of maintaining a relationship becomes too exhausting and the pressure of censoring one's self in order to be accepted becomes to much, one feels engulfed and pulls away.
In answer to your question Portia, I think that I am a little lonely and a little confused. Just recently, I've had some experiences that have left me questioning my ability or lack thereof to resonate with other women, as two women who were very significant in my life for MANY years, no longer are. This left me feeling very unsure. I love hearing your confidence though. I for one don't think you are crazy or anything like it. You sound like a woman who is very sure of herself and is not afraid to speak her truth.
Portia wrote: "I guess it’s finding your own balance between what you are like as a personality and what others will accept."
Yes, that is the key
P.S. Tif you had me laughing at those descriptions. I think I like the second one better. Funny though, I don't get visuals of people through their writings. I get a really good sense of the personality though. Visuals only come to me when I'm in communication over the phone. Weird stuff hey.
CeeMee
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Hi CeeMee
Thanks for the non-crazy vote! Funnily enough, for many years (and I’ve only just realised it) I kind of feared being locked up. I had no reason to fear it but it was there. I think it was transferred from my mother :o. Anyway…
experiences that have left me questioning my ability or lack thereof to resonate with other women, as two women who were very significant in my life for MANY years, no longer are. This left me feeling very unsure.
What happened with the women? Did the relationships die? How? If you feel unsure, particularly about this, please talk about it. Do you know what happened?
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Hi CeeMee:
I found this pheonomenally mature:
I accept that some of the problems that I face today could be related to my infancy and childhood (in fact I am certain of it) and not all of it is just dna and chemical imbalance. At the same time, I recognize that this is my problem to solve and blaming her won't get me any closer to solution. Over the years, as our relationship has improved, I have learned more about my mother's suffering.
Thank you.
I don't think you're nuts (or you either, Portia :)!).
I am a raging needy extrovert but get poleaxed with loneliness anyway.
Also nonconformist, also contrarian, also have N-spots, definitely.
I have firmly accepted that having N spots does not make me an N.
I have big fat empathy, often. I also get indignant and N-entitled on occasion.
Big whoop.
I'm allowed to be: an innie or an outie, E or I, lonely and avoidant.
Mistakes are fine. Feeling in or out or connected or misfitting is fine.
I think saying out loud that you're lonely is one of the bravest and most nonconformist things a person can do.
Because almost everybody in "groups" is carrying around chunks of loneliness as well.
That's what keeps me mostly okay in groups (aside from aggressive creepy violent things, of course)...but just normal group settings. I get a little panicky and then, when I remember, start thinking with compassion about whatever this apparently conventional, annoyingly narrowminded person is carrying. I still like to counter racist assumptions, etc...but I don't do it out of moral superiority any more.
(Boy did I hate giving THAT up.)
Hopalong
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Hi Hopalong,
Hopalong wrote: "That's what keeps me mostly okay in groups (aside from aggressive creepy violent things, of course)...but just normal group settings. I get a little panicky and then, when I remember, start thinking with compassion about whatever this apparently conventional, annoyingly narrowminded person is carrying. I still like to counter racist assumptions, etc...but I don't do it out of moral superiority any more."
Yes, I've come a long way in that department too. There was a time when I would become very upset about racist comments. To be honest, now, I may or may not comment on the remark depending on the person and the circumstances. I have found that some really good and decent people have archaic ideas and habits and if you challenge them, they will usually recognize the bias in their comment and retract it in some fashion. I've learned not to judge them or write them off as the "enemy" (I'm a person of color by the way). It is true what you say, shifting one's perspective to see the person with compassion can be very effective in diffusing my negative emotions. Strangely enough, I don't always handle all issues this same way. I am super sensitive when someone makes negative comments about gays, lesbians, bi-sexuals and transgendered people. Often times they are the ones feeling morally superior and believe that anyone who is GLBT, or who advocates for the rights of GLBT is immoral. Because of this pattern, I find myself being more vocal and challenging in those groups.
CeeMee
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CeeMee,
Boy, would we UUs love to get ahold of you.
(Unitarian Universalists). We just went through a whole curriculum to ensure and officially state that we're a "Welcoming Congregation" to GBLT folks. We hung a banner that says, This Church Supports Marriage Rights. Somebody ripped the banner down so we put up another one.
Just got a bunch of new members, too. Funny how that worked!
:D
Hopalong
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I know that my mother massaged all of us as babies. We have good muscle tone, which I thought was a result to that, and we all like touch, but it's funny to think it may have also had a positive effect our our self concept. It makes sense, I guess.
Interesting. My mother hardly ever touched me. She didn't even recognize I had a birth defect until I was 6 months old! It was a major defect which affected my being able to get adequate breast milk and caused me to lose considerable weight. Yet she didn't notice.
And I have a definite problem with touch. Not only that I have a very, very, did I say very, sensitive body. I can't handle deep pressure when getting a massage. It's been that way forever.
And it wasn't just my mother doing neglectful things to me. My bioNfather and his coherts also helped contribute to this. This type of information in that book was used in experiments on me and others who were abused like me. I survived a lot because I became multiple. So maybe that is how I remained safe and healthy? Don't know. Many children abused like this didn't even survive. Survivors were those who could dissociate.
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Yes, I am familiar with the UU. I went to one or two of their meetings. It was in a small conference room with about twenty people and we prayed and talked as an intimate group. It was all very nice. Perhaps I should see if they are still around. The church was lacking in funds and didn't really have a regular meeting place.
That's wonderful that this church is willing to stand up for its beliefs. Most wouldn't. There are so many crackpots out there who would use violence to silence a minority voice. It'd be enough to scare most people from taking a stand. I can't tell you how many times my husband has had to remind me to think about the family before taking a stand or putting myself out their in support of certain rights.
One person I always admired immensely was Mother Theresa. She didn't just pick any group to help, she picked the sickest of the sick and the poorest of the poor, who were at deaths door. Now tell me, who else would give a hoot about these folks. NO ONE! Most people would think, they're gonners anyway, why waste any time or money on them. She said, because nobody else would want to help these people, I will. That story touched my heart long ago and I have since had a calling to help and fight for the most marginalized of the marginalized. I have had a soft spot in my heart and feel a connectedness with them. I am particularly sensitive to transgendered people (even before the media started to talk about the issue).
It is heartbreaking how badly they are treated. Even in the jails, they are treated worse than the most heinous criminals. Even some gays and lesbians have their bias against trannys. And so, there have been times when I have stood up for what I believe in and have had to deal with the resulting prejudice and bias.
I Imagine a world one day where love will transcend all of our differences and enable us to see the person inside and be focused on the best parts within.
CeeMee
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I Imagine a world one day where love will transcend all of our differences and enable us to see the person inside and be focused on the best parts within.
Hear, hear...I hear you!
UU principle #1: "The inherent worth and dignity of every person."
www.uua.org for a nearby US congregation (Find a Congregation under QuickLinks)...or for Europe:
http://bob.swe.uni-linz.ac.at/euu/
We don't proselytise much...it's just a happy enthusiasm of mine, I was so relieved to find that community.
But I find good things in other churches too whether I share all the dogma or not. Quaker was an early influence too...boy do those folks walk their talk. I lack that bravery.
But I admire yours!
Hopalong
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CeeMee,
I really admire Mother Theresa too. I was a bit miffed when Princess Di was chosen as person of the year over her by some mag!
I'm thinking seriously now about how to be more like MT. The whole quest for self enrichment and sense of entitlement is getting old.
Plucky
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Hi Plucky,
Mother Theresa slept on the floor for years on nothing more than a mat. She lived a very simple life which gave her an appreciation for the conditions that the people around her were living in. How many activists would be willing to do such a thing? I had a real hard time watching all the celebrities on TV getting free media coverage for all their good works helping Katrina victims. It seems there are fewer philanthropists who give freely and anonymously anymore.
I must say that I did love Princess Di too though. In fact, I cried when she died. For some reason, I felt that woman's pain at the hands of that N husband of hers. Talk about unfeeling.
Princess Di went to the side of AIDS victims and held there hands while others were still afraid to be int he same room with them. I think she felt marginalized and, therefore, felt a real connection with other marginalized people throughout the world.
What ideas are you considering to be more like Mother T.? I was just thinking these last few days that I should get involved in some volunteer work again. I'm actually considering working with victims of and building awareness of AIDS afflicting women in the African American community. I just heard on the radio yesterday that AIDS amongst African American women is growing while the numbers in the gay community are dropping. With the numbers dropping in the gay community, the activism from that segment will (and probably has) drop(ped). So who will take up the cause for African American women with AIDS? That sounds like a Mother Theresa cause if I ever heard one :)
CeeMee
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I met Mother Theresa once, when I was a little girl...about 8 or 9 years old.
She was amazing! She was a tiny little lady full of spunk and vinegar!! Very, very energetic and a powerful speaker (not loud but clear, interesting and able to reach her audience so well)!! She seemed so......joyful......is the best word I can think of and her spirit was...... contagious
She came to our church to speak in the church hall to the students of our and other schools about the poor people of Bangladesh (sorry if I spelled that wrong). I remember her eyes had this ......spark...in them. I remember there was a kind of......sizzling heat...that came off her hands, when she shook mine and covered it with her other hand (I know that sounds totally weird but that's what I remember....feeling this heat and being surprised and confused by it?? :?). She shook hands with many of the students. That act alone made me feel.....like a person...not just a kid. I thought: "This is a special nun" but I really had no idea of why. She wasn't very well known then, I think.
A big thing she did that day was she instilled me with hope. The way she described the living conditions of those poor people she was trying to help, while at the same time, she talked about their qualities and similarities and wonders as people, was very moving. She made it known that we are all the same and we are all loved and can easily share love. She certainly generated action from us kids. We worked very hard (the kids at school) after that to raise as much money as we could to help. I remember she even sent us a "thankyou" note too. That was a big deal. Who ever thanked a bunch of kids back then?
Good for you CeeMee for considering such an important cause and I think you're right about it being a cause she may have embraced. She picked the most hopeless place on earth to spread hope and she did a marvelous job. It's such a simple thing....hope....and it can change lives.
:D Sela
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Hello Everyone,
I'm new to this message board. I am very happy to have found it. Both of my parents are narcissists. I know this for many reasons, but the most important one is because they both completely lack the ability for empathy. I have spent the last 5 years of my life trying to recover from all of the damage they caused. Barely anyone in my life knows about my pain/suffering because I don't like/want to share it with others and because I don't have too many friends. But I feel very alone/lonely because of my past. I'm writing on this message board because I want to share my experiences and connect with others who have had to endure a similar fate.
In terms of growing up without attachments, in my case, I know that my mother was neglectful of me. I know this because of other people's accounts of my childhood. My grandmother, who lived near my family until I was 2, told me that as a baby I was very dirty and that my mother rarely washed me. I've also been told by several relatives that my mother would leave me on a baby toilet (I don't know what they are called), naked in front of the TV for hours on end and that this happened regularly. When my mother recounts it, she thinks it really cute. I think it's absolutely horrible. There are more stories, but the crux of it is that my mother was way, way too involved in herself to care adequately for me.
How has that affected me? Well, I feel like every couple of months I come to understand the depths of my parent's damage at a more profound level. At a deep, emotional level, I have a good idea of what I lost in having a narcissistic mother. I can't put it into words, but my mind and heart constantly search for those maternal feelings. I didn't realize these strong longings until I entered therapy. I had a great relationship with my therapist (female) for a few years until I began to want her to be my mother! I mean, I actually asked her to be my mother!! In my mind, she was an opportunity to get what I had never received: attention, affection, empathy, kindness, caring, structure...the list goes on. Well, now I understand I was acting narcisistically by objectifying her in an attempt to get what I so desperately never had. Even though I know this now at an intellectual level, however, I still succumb to the hope of turning her into my mother at times. This longing for a mother (as well as a father) has deeply effected my ability to form fulfilling and meaningful relationships (among a myriad of other issues).
After five years, I am beginning to get better. I am still often filled by sadness when I try new activity, but this is much better than a few years ago when I never went out except for work....New situations force me to realize just how much I've lost...Yesterday I went to a orchestral performance by myself and I sat behind a young couple in their early 20's. I don't know what was going on in that couple's interaction, but I began to imagine all of the 20 something's that have made lasting connections with other people at that age...who have a completely different perspective on life than myself...For people from healthy families, the world is so much easier to comprehend emotionally and psychologically. I mean, when I meet someone new, somewhere in the back of my mind alway lingers a fear that this new person will invade my emotional and psychological space, will cross and violate every boundary, will put me down and make me feel powerless, helpless. Someone who hasn't experienced a childhood like mine doesn't have to deal with this reality, doesn't have to deal with this possibility.
In the above situations, my sadness, unfortunately, often comes out as anger directed mostly at the few people in my life that care about me.
I could go on because I have so many other thoughts, but I'll stop here for now. I look forward to reading your posts and sharing with all of you.
Thanks for reading.
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Hello Hopefulsoul
Love your name... and Welcome to the board.
I was so sorry to hear your story and how your mother treated you, but I was also glad to hear that you have a fabulous therapist and you are in the process of healing.
After your childhood, it is normal to long for a mother figure to give you what you never had. Personally I believe we have a lot of power in ourselves, and I feel you can become the mother you crave and parent your inner child.
I also relate to the misplaced anger... where you take it out on your friends and then feel bad. There are other ways of getting rid of anger, like screaming your head off in the car, or boxing, or singing really loudly to music. Some people like sport, and loudly cheer their team... you will know what will help you.
Keep posting and look forward to hearing from you again.
Take care
H&H xx
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Hello HopefulSoul,
Welcome to the board. Very glad you found us!
Yes, I think that although many people are capable of empathy, it is still difficult for some to even imagine how our parents' treatment of us could affect a person, much less even happen. You know the old saying, walk a mile in someone else's shoes...well, you came to the right board because we have walked in your shoes.
Boy, I really relate to that feeling of resisting becoming too close to anyone else because I don't want to become their "object" to use, to have to follow their rules for my life or else they will put me down. I don't want to be anyone's minion (anymore).
I also know what you mean about that longing to have someone else's life. Like, wow, they had parents who loved and encouraged them and hmm, actually cared about what happened to them and how they were doing in an appropriate way. Who gave them positive and life-affirming attention and nurturing. It may or may not be true of those people I'm observing, but that is what I am thinking and longing for. (My father gets jealous of babies held by their mothers...what does THAT tell you? :shock:)
Perhaps we have lost much, but maybe (?) we can appreciate it more when we find it. I'm so glad that you have the capacity to recognize and appreciate nurturing where you find it and know that that is what healthy parenting looks like (as in your experiences with your therapist). Hold that in your heart. It's precious.
Again, welcome, MP
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Hi CeeMee and everyone,
I realise I didn't read your response to me about Mother Theresa. I couldn't remember what thread it was.
The AIDS sounds like a worthy issue. The one that speaks to me is hunger. (As a child I went hungry because no one could be bothered to see that I ate. Our family was not poor. At least not in financial terms.)
I cannot forget the fact that children are living on the streets and hungry. I have volunteered and donated but I want to find something ongoing and less band-aiddy to do about it. I want to feed the world. It is a crime that so many go hungry.
I want to adopt all the orphans. I want to give love to all the babies.
I want to simplify my life so that I am not contributing to the problem. I want to walkaround wearing something that was produced without use of slave or exploitive labor or causing pollution or use fo nonrenewable resources. I want to eat pure food that did not cause suffering to any creature. I want to mend the earth with my actions, and do no harm to it.
Plucky
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Hello and welcome Hopeful Soul
CeeMee, just a quick word to say I want to welcome HS here but don’t want to hijack your thread either so…….I’ll type here and maybe you’ll return to it too? Sharing stories often helps me when I try and understand others.
Hopeful Soul:
When my mother recounts it, she thinks it really cute. I think it's absolutely horrible.
Anyone with an ounce of compassion would think that what she did was truly awful. I understand the ‘really cute’ though. My mother has made similar comments. Sick huh? Yes of course it’s sick. People without empathy are sick - but you sound pretty healthy by comparison. It’s not fair though is it? Why can’t we be like that too and not care about other people? (but no, I wouldn’t want to be them really.)
I had a great relationship with my therapist (female) for a few years until I began to want her to be my mother! I mean, I actually asked her to be my mother!!
Until? This is pretty normal for what happens in therapy I believe. Therapists help by almost becoming the parents we need to be emotional with.
Well, now I understand I was acting narcisistically by objectifying her in an attempt to get what I so desperately never had.
As a therapist she should hopefully be equipped to deal with your emotions. Narcissism in babies is an essential stage of development. Not something in therapy to be worried about or avoided. Therapy can take you through the developmental stages you missed out on. It’s all okay.
For people from healthy families, the world is so much easier to comprehend emotionally and psychologically. I mean, when I meet someone new, somewhere in the back of my mind alway lingers a fear that this new person will invade my emotional and psychological space, will cross and violate every boundary, will put me down and make me feel powerless, helpless. Someone who hasn't experienced a childhood like mine doesn't have to deal with this reality, doesn't have to deal with this possibility.
It’s not fair is it? I currently grapple with resentment and bitterness about things I never had, living with an emotional disability, having to fight with myself. And it isn’t fair, that’s just how it is. Life isn’t fair, it’s all chance and uncertainty.
my sadness, unfortunately, often comes out as anger directed mostly at the few people in my life that care about me.
We can cycle repeatedly between anger and sadness but do you find that with each real burst of anger, the feeling is slightly lessened and it doesn’t last as long?
Are you still seeing the therapist? Have you talked about your anger with her? Have you tried to get angry with her?
How about a new thread with all your answers? You can copy and paste any of my post if you wish.
Plucky!
I don’t know what to do! I want to get a new type of job, one that helps, one that makes me feel as though I’m achieving something real instead of just paying the bills. I don’t want to harm the world. But I honestly think that one of the big answers to human poverty and suffering is stop having so many children. And then I think, what can I do and do I actually like people enough to help? We keep repeating the same old stupid patterns. Then other days I think, what the heck, this is all there is, better make something of it.
I want to adopt all the orphans. I want to give love to all the babies.
Hallelujah. If only everyone thought the same. What a wonderful world this would be.
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Just had to reply to this thread since it definitely resonates with me.
I'm the only child of an N father and enabling mother. My father was the sole focus of the family and everything revolved around him and his needs. My mother's pregnancy was an unwanted surprise and I was placed in foster care until I was six.
At that point, for some reason my mother lobbied to get me back. My childhood consisted of walking on eggshells, compelled to silence, told to stay in my room, and having dinner on the table for my parents when they got home from work. I was eight.
I dreamed and hoped and prayed that they would have a car accident and I could just live by myself. Graduated highschool two years early and moved out on my own. No contact with the parents siince that time - 40 years now.
The effect of growing up with no attachment has been two-fold. One - it made me a much much better parent than I would have been otherwise. My children are happy, well-adjusted adults who laugh at my "loner" ways but have healthy relationships themselves.
Two - I have been unable to sustain a relationship myself. At the first sign of strife - perhaps a very minor disagreement - I am ready to pack my bags and leave. For me, leaving is not such a big deal because the attachment is only on a "surface" level and involves a lot of play-acting. I remember watching familty tv shows as a child so that I could learn how to behave.
I do realize that this could be a very sad recitation, and I often wonder how I might have been different. But this is what I know and one really can't miss something that one has never had.
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Forgot to add that my only romantic relationships have been with N's. Because that's what I know.
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Artsy,
Your story breaks my heart it is so sad. That must have been a very painful 10 years you lived with her not counting the years and pain in foster care.
I agree that growing up without attachment or with deep emotional traumas can ultimately result in one being able to raise great kids. That is something I committed to after growing up the hard way and my kids turned out great too. It wasn't easy to do given my own psychological problems but they turned out great despite my issues.
Like I wrote Portia on another post, don't give up on love. It can happen when you least expect it.
Seems you have a solid understanding of what your shortfalls are in the relationship department. That's the first step towards resolving them. Some folks don't have a clue. It takes lots of self assessment and work to be ready to receive your soulmate in life.
Don't feel obliged to respond if this is too personal. Do you think that the reason you pack to leave at the slightest sign of problems is your own fear of abandonment? That would make sense given your abandonment as a child. Did you worry that your mom might give you up again after she regained custody? Did you work very hard as a child to meet your moms expectations (keeping quiet, having dinner ready) for fear you may be abandoned again?
CeeMee
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CeeMee - in response to the questions in your last paragraph, my packing to leave at the first sign of problems is indeed partially due to fear of abandonment - get out before I'm thrown out. The other factor is of course that I have never seen a relationship where there is strife and it is solved.
As I said, my father was an N and the world revolved around him. My mother went along with all of his rules and dictates. There was never a raised voice or a slammed door. Frankly, angry voices create a deep fear in me - in real life, on tv or in a film.
I have never - and this is absolutely true - had a raised-voice argument in my entire life. Despite two divorces.
The fear of abandonment goes very deep - I remember my husband being TWO (really!) minutes late to pick me up once and I was in tears by the time he arrived.
The N with whom I was most recently involved brought all of my childhood memories back. I had done a pretty good job growing scar tissue, but he really did a number on me. Hence the recent bout of introspection.
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Hi Artsy and thanks for sharing those responses. It must be difficult searching through all this stuff. You have such a good handle on what's going on though. Seems to me that you should have no problem toward recovery. Are you in therapy? Can't recommend it enough.
Some other thoughts about your responses.
There are ways of changing reactions to conflict and anger and part of it is learning new responses. When dealing with emotional responses triggered by deep rooted emotional traumas, I don't see there is any way around a good therapist; one that will listen and help you relive and regurgitate alot of this childhood stuff, particularly the anger and fear that was no doubt surpressed. The book I read and have mentioned at least a dozen times on the board "A General Theory of Love" talks very clearly about this whole process and how it works on the the brain.
Talk therapy really is therapeutic. Just be sure you find a therapist that you click with and who is committed to bringing about your well being most of all by providing a non judgmental empathetic ear. When I think back to my therapist, I can't ever remember her and I being in conflict over anything. She made suggestions and I either followed them or not and regardless of what I decided, there was no judgment or fingerpointing. She trusted me to make my own choices. I trusted her to support me.
Once some semblence of inner peace and happines is achieved with this rewrite on the brain, you'd be surprised how much easier it is to standup or at least stand still rather than taking flight at the slightest sign of hostility or aggression. It really can be changed. Now one may not become a fiery defense attorney if they aren't naturally an extrovert, but everyone should certainly be able to stand up for themselves when they have a right to and want to.
Introspection is good. I wish you the best and keep posting.
CeeMee
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I find all of this so confusing! :(
I have so many jumbled up thoughts and unanswered questions about attachment.
Sometimes I wonder if I should be trying to change myself or accept myself for who I am.
I wonder if I am keeping people at bay on purpose or do I have some innate feeling that this person in question will not meet my needs and I am thereby protecting myself. Should I just trust my inner judgement on this? Maybe it's just bad timing, and maybe this is a time to be alone with myself...
I think I just don't really like people. Even my friends, I keep changing my mind about them all the time. When I decide that I don't like them, I kinda prepare myself for permanent departure. It's like I am always sort of 'one foot out the door' just in case... My friendships are like those parties that you go to but you don't take off your coat in case you have to leave. The annoying thing is that it seems like the problem not only lies with me but with my friends also. We are similar. I tried to open myself up a little more to them recently as I was learning more about my behaviour with my counsellor, but it failed. I felt my friends weren't able to meet my needs and I was setting myself up for a big disappointment & hurt by opening myself to the wrong people. Is this my fate then? Will I end up like my Mother in an unhappy, unfulfilling marriage because that is all I will ever get? it seems I have been on the same road all my life, I can't see things changing now... Why can't i send myself people I can open up to and connect to? I know change must begin with me, but how long is this going to take?
Unfulfilling.
I am more comfortable in new friendships and that seems to be a fact. I am NEVER SATISFIED with those I get close to. There are too many complications.
I am similar to you Cee Mee, I too feel like a lone ranger. I sometimes feel I am the only one of my kind on the planet and everyone else is locked up in another world where I am shut out. I feel like I am out on the edge. I feel so disconnected from people and I am rarely fulfilled.
Animals are the only living creatures that I can ever open myself wholly to, as I am 100% sure they will not hurt me and there is no risk involved. This is why I adore my four legged friends.
Thanks for this post, it has been fascinating, but also very close to the bone :(
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Hi Selkie,
Totally understand the confusion part. I am frequently of that state of mind. Not to worry. I think that it is good to jumble up our thoughts every now and then and make sense of them. Many times a day I have the same battles as you of going back and forth. But I have decided (I may undecide this later mind you) that it is probably a good thing that our thoughts swing back and forth like a pendulum. Eventually, it brings balance. The alternative would be not to weigh things and settle on a position or view of things that hasn't been sufficiently tested. After much research and after talking with folks on the board, I've concluded that this is my personality type.
Selkie, I know that feeling of opening up and ultimately being betrayed. It has happened to me numerous times. We can't know unless we try though. Again, what's the alternative, never trusting anyone? Hopefully though we hone our senses and get better. Maybe one day we will find that acquaintance who becomes a friend who becomes a confidant.
Selkie, I would be honored to be your friend. Feel free to write me any time. Truthfully, I feel closer to some of the people on this board than anyone in my work or social circles.
What I have found with my so called "friends" who make me question whether we really are friends, is that when I am not feeling them, I just put some distance between us. I stop putting energy there for a while. Eventually, if there is will on both sides, we wind up spending time together again. I have learned over time to lower my expectations of people. That helps too.
CeeMee
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(((((((((((((Selkie)))))))))))))))
Big hugs hon.
Sometimes I wonder if I should be trying to change myself or accept myself for who I am
I feel this is both Selkie hon. The way I see it is that unless we accept ourselves for who we are, how can we change ourselves to become the person we would like to be?
I wonder if I am keeping people at bay on purpose or do I have some innate feeling that this person in question will not meet my needs and I am thereby protecting myself. Should I just trust my inner judgement on this? Maybe it's just bad timing, and maybe this is a time to be alone with myself...
I feel that this could be both as well... but here you are opening up. I feel that here you are sharing your confusion and thoughts and that is opening up.... and I think that this is really great. Sometimes it's easier to take small steps, start small and build from there.
I think I just don't really like people. Even my friends, I keep changing my mind about them all the time. When I decide that I don't like them, I kinda prepare myself for permanent departure. It's like I am always sort of 'one foot out the door' just in case... My friendships are like those parties that you go to but you don't take off your coat in case you have to leave. The annoying thing is that it seems like the problem not only lies with me but with my friends also. We are similar. I tried to open myself up a little more to them recently as I was learning more about my behaviour with my counsellor, but it failed. I felt my friends weren't able to meet my needs and I was setting myself up for a big disappointment & hurt by opening myself to the wrong people. Is this my fate then? Will I end up like my Mother in an unhappy, unfulfilling marriage because that is all I will ever get? it seems I have been on the same road all my life, I can't see things changing now... Why can't i send myself people I can open up to and connect to? I know change must begin with me, but how long is this going to take?
While reading that you don't really like people.... I feel that if you really didn't you wouldn't be here. I'd be really interested to hear how you opened up and why you felt your friends weren't able to meet your needs? I also believe that we have a lot of power in ourselves to determine our own fate to some extent... in that if we don't like something, then we have the power to change it.... we have the power to stop ourselves going down the same road all our lives. Regarding ending up like your Mother... no I don't think you will... I feel maybe you could go a little easier on yourself. From a personal experience, I believe that we have to accept and love ourselves before anyone else can love us. I went through a lot of unhealthy types of relationships (mainly because I was looking for someone to give me love), but I am proud that I had the ability to learn from them, to change my destiny if you like. How long will it take? I don't know hon, but you said it yourself, you know it must begin with you... that is a huge first step of acceptance.
I sometimes feel I am the only one of my kind on the planet and everyone else is locked up in another world where I am shut out.
I grew up feeling like this... but it's not true. If you were own your own planet, we wouldn't understand you, and we do!
Animals are the only living creatures that I can ever open myself wholly to, as I am 100% sure they will not hurt me and there is no risk involved. This is why I adore my four legged friends.
This is fabulous Selkie... all your questioning... this shows that you can open up yourself to others. I feel that you are concerned about being hurt and taking a risk. When you posted here, you took a risk and opened up... we are not animals (at least I don't think so, though my legs are pretty hairy at the moment so I could be considered a monkey!!!). Unfortunately we have to take risks, or we'd just be a hermit with no contact with the outside world, however the best thing is that if anyone does hurt us, we have the power to say No... to say I'm sorry, I don't have to accept your behaviour, we have the power to not allow people to continue to hurt us once we have taken that initial risk.
I feel that you are doing really well Selkie. You are the person on my how to let go post that could see I was putting myself back into voicelessness... and this made a huge impact on me because it was something I could not see that I was doing to myself. I feel if you have even half of this insight with your current relationships, you can't go far wrong.
Take care
H&H xx
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Thank you CeeMee and H&H-
-For your kind and wise words!
Can i just say that my dog who died years ago visited me last night (after my post) in my dream. We were on concrete steps and she came to me and I just petted her with so much love for ages!!!! ...and she gave me so much love, it was so lovely to see her little skinny black and white wire haired legs-
CeeMee said: But I have decided (I may undecide this later mind you) that it is probably a good thing that our thoughts swing back and forth like a pendulum. Eventually, it brings balance. The alternative would be not to weigh things and settle on a position or view of things that hasn't been sufficiently tested. After much research and after talking with folks on the board, I've concluded that this is my personality type.
This is very cool, and it cheered me up. It's kinda exhausting swinging back and forth isn't it? I hope someday it will bring balance. I feel like I change with each swing too, always changing my mind about people and myself. I like her, I don't, I like me, I don't, I like my life, I don't, I'm happy, I'm sad and so on...
H&H: I feel very safe opening up on this board as I feel like there are like minded people and they will catch my fall. There is ALWAYS support on here ALL THE TIME, and that is pretty much garaunteed- To answer your question without completely hijacking the thread, I'd be really interested to hear how you opened up and why you felt your friends weren't able to meet your needs? Well about a month ago I figured I would open up to my friends and prove to myself that i wasn't the one who was keeping them at bay. So I set about trying to meet up more often and set about making more contact etc, but it resulted in them not changing! They got kinda flaky and let me down, not returned my calls/texts until after the day I wanted to meet them etc, I set myself up to be hurt. I think I would open up to anyone if they proved themselves to me. But it takes a new person. Hopefully I will attract more available people?
CeeMee said: What I have found with my so called "friends" who make me question whether we really are friends, is that when I am not feeling them, I just put some distance between us. I stop putting energy there for a while. Eventually, if there is will on both sides, we wind up spending time together again. I have learned over time to lower my expectations of people. That helps too.
CeeMee, this sums up my friendships. I need time away to recover every so often. Sometimes I feel like it's the end of the friendship. I always come around though and we meet up again. You say you have learned to lower your expectations, in what way? Surely by lowering your expectations you are giving people a license not to meet your needs? How do you have close friends if your expectations of them are low?
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Selkie hon
I can understand why you felt hurt with your friends... it depends what their lives are like, how much notice you gave them, do they work shifts etc etc etc. I don't have lots of friends, however I do have a few close friends. Trying to fit in when to see them is difficult... my husband works shifts, one of my friends works shifts, and another one has an evening job as well as working full time. I generally give them a ring in advance (mostly 2/3 weeks ahead) and try and organise a mutually convenient time for both of us. One of my friends works in various parts of the UK, and can be so busy she doesn't have time to return my calls, however I understand what her job is like so I accommodate accordingly.
By lowering your expectations, you can give people a licence to meet your needs if that makes any sense. Personally I think your friends could have texted you back before the arranged meet up time, depending on how much notice they had, but as I don't know them, or what their lives are like this is difficult for me to speculate. I have also had times where my friends has either not got messages, or thought they'd texted me when they hadn't... that kind of thing, however they have always apologised and are sorry they let me down.
Friends, as with any kind of relationship, takes effort and the more responsibility and busier our lives become, the more effort it takes. There is also the possibility with your friends, that if you decided to contact them, and it was out of the norm for you (and I am only speculating here), then they might not feel they need to make the effort with you. It depends as if they texted you afterwards did you say.... I thought you might have let me know beforehand, and I was hurt that you didn't. No one wants to hurt their friends.
Maybe some thoughts to ponder on....
Take care
H&H xx
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Hi H&H-
I really want to reply to what you have said so I am going to regurgitate my friendship thread and respond to your post on that, I am feeling too guilty that I have hijacked CeeMee's thread!
xx