Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Healing&Hopeful on November 14, 2005, 04:23:26 AM
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Hiya all
I'm sorry to burden you with all this again but I think I just need some answers. Athough I have no contact with him at the moment, when he gets ill/sick or dies, I will still have to go and sort out his affairs because there isn't anyone else. I think this may be why I'm having trouble letting go. So I'm posting some of our last e-mails. I would appreciate to hear your thoughts, especially from people who have dealt with this kind of thing. I still go through phases of thinking have I done enough, surely there must be something I can do to help. I've been through this cycle quite a few times and don't know how to break it.
So I have a few questions:-
1. Was I too hard? Do you read this and think I have done enough? Do you think I did the right thing?
2. What do I do if he makes contact again? How can I change things by we don't end up in the same cycle?
3. How do I let go for the time being?
Any help and advice would be welcome. So here we go.... these are the bits from his emails that stops me contact him. All these were from end of last year and beginning of this year:-
But you will have to accept I am what I am, and that is that. I was born this way. I may not like it, but I have to accept it, and so do others. Many people throughout my life, including my Mother said I have to change.
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Also remember I lived next door to my Grandmother and Grandfather. I did not have these problems with them, despite living there for 26 years. That is almost as long as you have been born.
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I suffer from depression, which I usually manage without taking drugs. If you carry on, I may end up having a total breakdown, and losing everything. Is this what you want?
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Everyone, and now including you has told me I have to change.....except for one person, XXXX (his ex girlfriend, the one who he met when she was 15). I always believed I would find my soulmate, someone who did understand me, and she was taken from me....
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I sometimes get a cold or virus, or the effects of such for a couple of hours or so, but usually manage to shake them off.
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Life is all about confidence.
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I also agree you should earn your respect, although regarding the respect of your mother and father, I think it more a case of them losing your respect through their actions, rather than not earning it. For instance if one is violent to the other, or steals or something.
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I know it is difficult with divorced parents.......one reason I do not believe in divorce. It's another thing I'm 'different'. I do not believe the view 'just because you have children you should have to sacrifice your life'. Once you have children, your life comes second BUT the children have to respect you, and your views. This is the main reason for most of societies ills today.
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I have my boat as a place to go to take Barney, as I don't have a garden, only a small brick yard. I would love to swap it for a small field. But fate decided that I was to have a boat, not a field, so I make the most of it.
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As to getting paid.....where does the government get it's money from......me. I still pay most of my money in tax. Fuel, VAT, TV and car licence, insurance.
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The person at fault, is the one in the wrong. That is not usually debatable.
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And from what I understand you were violent to her once also and slapped her.
I will just explain this. I was never violent to her as such, but if I remember correctly, I was trying to get her to answer a question, with either yes or no. She refused point blank, keeping silent, so to get her to talk I poked her with my fist, but because I was so angry I did it too hard. This was while I was lying in bed alongside her and was sideways.
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His response to questions about his back
I'm sorry you did send this email, and just when I thought we were getting somewhere. I asked you before not to carry on with this subject. Obviously you have no respect for me, otherwise you would do as I ask.
Most of what you say in your email is absolutely and totally wrong. If you can't understand that, then I feel sorry for you.
PLEASE DO NOT MENTION THIS SUBJECT AGAIN.
If you want to talk sense then I will.
Thank you once again for upsetting me.
Your devistated Father.
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As to the mental problems. I appreciate you are trying to help, but you are not, and in fact making things a lot worse. If you continue, you will make me ill. If I become ill and cannot look after myself, my life will as good as be over.
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If you take drugs, legal, subscribed, or illegal, depending on the substance if you take them continually for more than 2 weeks you become addicted. More by luck, and chance, I have discovered how to cope with depression for instance.
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You say you have common sense. When you start using it we will start to have an understanding.
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Self help answers that I sent him:-
Acknowledging that you are solely responsible for the choices in your life.
I agree
Accepting that you are responsible for what you choose to feel or think.
I agree
Accepting that you choose the direction for your life.
I agree, to a point. A person with severe learning disabilities cannot become a doctor for example. Or a person born with no arms and legs cannot become a top athlete, completing at olympic games on terms with fit people.
Accepting that you cannot blame others for the choices you have made.
I don't.
Tearing down the mask of defense or rationale for why others are responsible for who you are, what has happened to you, and what you are bound to become.
God is responsible for me, and what I am to become. It is my freedom of choice if I follow him, or not.
The rational belief that you are responsible for determining who your are, and how your choices affect your life.
God determines who I am.
Pointing the finger of responsibility back to yourself and away from others when you are discussing the consequences of your actions.
I don't do this.....others do.
Realizing that you determine your feelings about any events or actions addressed to you, no matter how negative they seem.
I know this.
Recognizing that you are your best cheerleader; it is not reasonable or healthy for you to depend on others to make you feel good about yourself.
This is why people mistakenly think I am arrogant sometimes.
Recognizing that as you enter adulthood and maturity, you determine how your self-esteem will develop.
It has.
Not feeling sorry for the ``bum deal'' you have been handed but taking hold of your life and giving it direction and reason.
God has given the world to the Devil. I follow God, hence I get a 'bum deal'.
Letting go of your sense of over responsibility for others.
Other than trying to explain the above, I don't do this.
Protecting and nurturing your health and emotional well being.
This is EXACTLY what I am doing.
Taking preventive health oriented steps of structuring your life with time management, stress management, confronting fears, and burnout prevention.
Ditto.
Taking an honest inventory of your strengths, abilities, talents, virtues, and positive points.
This is how I have survived so far. Many others would have been at the bottom of the river, or under a bus/train.
Developing positive, self-affirming, self-talk scripts to enhance your personal development and growth.
This is directed for the younger person. I have had similar advice in my teens.
Letting go of blame and anger toward those in your past who did the best they could, given the limitations of their knowledge, background, and awareness.
I only blame people who are wrong.
Working out anger, hostility, pessimism, and depression over past hurts, pains, abuse, mistreatment, and misdirection.
I do this on a daily basis.
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Society today puts the man with the most money at the top. It says he is 'successful'. The man who can buy a new car daily is 'successful'. The worlds rescources cannot sustain everyone having a car, let alone everyone having a new car daily, so this is wrong. This is how I am different. It does not make me wrong.
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Asia - Yes, it puts things in perspective. I actually have sent a little as well. Not to appease any feeling of guilt, just to try to help a little. I do actually 'count my blessings' even if I don't shout about it. Before modern communication, we only heard of these disasters months later, when brought by word of mouth from sailers.
Not trying to preach or anything, but it did happen on Boxing Day, the day after mankind makes a mockery of Christmas.....supposed to be celebrating the birth of Christ. Not punishment from God, just another fact reminding us God has given the world to the devil until he takes it back.
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Btw....just remember those who do not follow God's teachings will have everlasting damnation (or 5,000,000,000 years) the length of our universe. Don't take my word for it, ask the vicar, or priest, or even you mother in law.
You're braver than I am if you are willing to risk that.
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I have already told you. Your either follow God, or the devil, there is no 'third way'. This is the 'choice' we are given.
You are wrong to follow the devil, but that is your choice.....so be it.
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I don't take offence, but God does, so before you speak for the devil, please be careful. Actually I do take offence. I am very offended you don't believe me. I usually tell the truth, and I always have done. I got a good hiding and into real trouble when I blamed my sister for breaking a bird table off, that had a rotten stand when I did it. I was about 8. Of course I have told the odd lie, but in general I always tell the truth. That is why I am guillible, because I expect other to do the same.
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If you followed God, you would spell his name with a capital G. It is not your fault you are thinking as you do. I'm not blaming you. Just, as your father I have to tell you, otherwise I would be failing in my duty.
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You are correct in your interpretation of morals, however you are incorrect in not honouring myself or the others if you don't listen, and discuss. By all means question what we say. But expect to listen, and learn together. It is not good enough just to tell people what to do or say, you must also explain, or try to explain why. This is another reason to live in harmony with your natural mother and father. Before our modern way of life, the family would often sit in the evening and read the bible, which contain the rules for life. On Sunday you would go to church, or Sunday school. Yes I may be wrong not to go to church, if there was one that met my beliefs. Maybe I just don't know of it.
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Saying you are the daughter of Mr and Mrs XXXXXX (my Mum & Stepdad), and having a blessing, not a wedding is not really the best of starts is it. It is nearly always better to tell the truth, even that may be hard for some people to accept.
Of course 'he who pays the piper, calls the tune' but it still does not turn wrong to right.
Just becasue I'm a Christian, and forgive people, doesn't mean it doesn't upset me all the same. I will withstand the hurt, and unfairness, and will just have to cope as usual. After all, I'm used to it now and expect nothing less.
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The only critism I have of you is you seem to think people should make an exception just for you. Unless I am mistaken, you did tell me you tried hard to ask the vicar to marry you in church, as XXXXX (my husband) wedding was just something he did on the spur of the moment.
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Your father is the one to walk you down the isle and give you away. I have had to take the unfairness of not being allowed to be able to bring you up, and just because I suffered this mainly in silence, is no reason for this to continue now you are an adult. It is just one more kick in the teeth, in a long line of being kicked in the teeth. Just because I am more forgiving of others than most people, is this really a reason to expect me to always be the one to give in, without complaint, or at least voicing my opinion. After a lifetime of these experiences happening, I should't be surprised, but there is always hope. As I have already told you, I know the reason this happens, so no need to elaborate anymore.
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You keep saying I threw you out when I didn't. I sent you back to live with your mother, because of your attitude. I didn't expect undying gratitude, but I did expect a little respect, and understanding. I asked you to get my meal for the first time, as I was inconsolably upset, and you could only be bothered to get me beans on toast. I just wish you would understand. You have a responsibility for your own actions after you are 16, and must take the conscequences of those actions. Looking back, my father threw me out when I was 25. I went next door to Grandad for a week, as I was moving away. He was probably right to do so, although he was also responsible in some way for my behaviour.
When I visited, I thought things were now ok between us. I was very wrong of course. Because of this I also mistakenly thought you may like to right a few of the wrongs that has befallen me in the past. However I do now realise how this will appear to some, and how you think you were being reasonable.
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I almost feel as if I wouldn't care if I never saw you again. You have caused me days of depression and misery, and everytime I see an email from you, I am almost terrified of reading it.
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I'm sorry you cannot accept me for being ME. There is nothing I can do about that, also there is nothing wrong with me. Many agree with me.
I will post some of mine in the next post, so you can see both sides.
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Irrational Ideas:-
Everyone should accept and approve of me - You say I should accept you and believe what you say.
I should always be able, successful, and "on top of things." - This is why you say I have been successful at everything I've done. Whereas you haven't because it is unrealistic to be. This is another reason why you think no one should be divorced... it's idealistic and irrational, therefore not realistic.
External events, such as bad luck, other people, a sick society, cause unhappiness. I can't control these things, so it's not my fault things are so awful. - This is why you think god has given the world to the devil and you have a bum deal.
Of course, without the problems being definable, objective, specific, manageable, and circumscribed, depressed people don't have specific plans, i.e. doable, clear-cut, self-help steps in mind for attaining realistic goals. Without plans for changing, they have no hope and no motivation. They feel like victims, not masters of the situation. That is unreasonable. They can change. - Take the depression, you took drugs which treated the symptoms but by going to counselling you will be treating the cause. What will happen when XXXXXX (his dog) dies which unfortunately will happen? What steps are you taking now so you don't end up the same after XXXXXX (his last dog) died?
They see nothing illogical about giving credit to luck, other people, God, fate, etc. for the good things - This is why it is fate you have a boat, went to work for XXXXX (his old boss) etc.
And, their "solutions" for their problems are often unrealistic, such as a person with two children and an unhappy marriage who wants to have another child "to improve the marriage" - Your solution is unrealistic in this instance because your solution is that I have been corrupted by society.
Some of us, hating uncertainty, need an immediate, simple, "it's for sure" explanation; others of us need lots of data, time to weigh different opinions, and careful thought about the issue before we arrive at an explanation. This reflects the difference between simple "black-and-white thinking" (dichotomous thinking) and complex "tolerance of ambiguity." Depressed people grab hold of immediate, clear-cut but pessimistic explanations; that is their "explanatory style," namely, "it's my fault" (happy folks blame the situation or someone else), "my weakness messes up everything" and "it will never change, so why try?" Wow, what a prescription for depression! Reality is: you aren't entirely to blame, the supposed fault won't mess up everything, and the situation--including you--can and will change. Depressed people must learn to think differently. - While at the moment you don't think things are your fault.... It can only be your fault or someone/something elses (the dichotomous thinking). At the moment everything is god/fate or the other person. You can't change so therefore everyone must accept you, whereas through counselling, if you'd let it, it would make a big difference.
So I do still stand by my offer to ring your surgery and make an appointment and come with you to see a doctor. Together we could get you transferred to a counsellor... and this is the option to do something about it, but you can only do this by being responsible for this thought and action.
Because you see things in black and white, good or bad you have a much limited view than majority of other people, this is why you are perceived as different. But then because you can only see right or wrong, one person has to be right and the other wrong. What you believe is true so therefore the other person is wrong and should agree with you. It is perfect logic but unrealistic.... this is again where counselling would help you.
But you can only do this if you are responsible for what happens to you which is why I have been saying about choices. If we take the boat, you weren't able to buy a field because when a field came up someone else got there first... it's no fault of your own or anyone elses but because you can only think it's either you or someone/something else, it is obviously fate, so while walking down by the marina (where the thought came from), you thought, I can't get a field so I could maybe get a boat.
You have the most amazing daughter and I really hope that one day you will be able to see it fully.
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I do follow god, but I do not believe god has given the world to the devil. That is the difference. It is what I believe, and our priest and XXXXX (my husband) parents, in fact most of the people in the UK! I will not suffer damnation because I don't believe god has given the world to the devil.
Again god giving the world to the devil is another unrealistic, irrational view that you choose to believe. If we are looking at your statement rationally, you are the only person who is following the devil under the pretence that you are still following god. Everyone else is following god because they do not believe god has given the world to the devil. Please go to church on Sunday if you don't believe me, maybe then your vicar can help you.
Even regarding the 10 commandments. You are unable to follow them yourself (I know you have sworn!), so how do you expect everyone else to? This again is unrealistic and irrational. If you expect everyone to live by the bible, this again is unrealistic and irrational.
What is realistic is for people to have good morals (ie. honesty, kindness etc), work hard (and by this I'm not on about money or going to work, I mean work hard at everything you do), provide for themselves and their family, help others when possible. These are what our parents teach us. I don't have to agree with Mum, XXXXXX (my stepdad) or you to "Honour thy mother and thy father". This again is a unrealistic expectation.
Again this comes down to your coping mechanisms not being learnt correctly to take you through life which is why you believe what you do and again why I feel you need to see the doctor.
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No offence, but the people in Thailand, Sri Lanka, Indonesia are generally Muslims and therefore don't celebrate Christmas. This is just a very unfortunate freak of nature, caused by the plates of the earth rubbing against each other creating the earthquake which in turn created the Tsunami. No one's fault, and the devil is not responsible for it.
It is partly because of these kind of thoughts which is why I am concerned about you and feel that you do need to see the doctor.
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I read your e-mail with interest as I am the daughter of Mr & Mrs XXXXXXXX (Mum & Stepdad). XXXXX (My stepdad) is the person who contributed to raising me, both financially (throughout childhood and again now) and emotionally so I feel it is fair and right his name is on the invitations.
I am sorry that you feel hurt but I did say what was happening right from the beginning, regarding who was doing what, who was paying for what and what names would be on the invites. I actually feel it is you that is being unfair in this instance. I have been very fair and took everyone's feelings into account. This is why I asked you to do the speech, so you can be a part of the preceedings too.
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You are my biological father yes, but unfortunately I don't feel like you are my dad. Since I have grown older I do appreciate how difficult it must be to be a part time dad but I still don't really have anything in common with you or a connection with you. Because of this it just wouldn't feel right for you to walk me down the isle but because we would like you to be part of the proceedings, we asked you to do the speech. This is where you can say to everyone in the room how you feel about us and what your hopes are for us and is your moment... It also takes a few months planning a good speech too so really gives you a chance to have your input. As for saying giving me away in church was your only highlight left... you'll still a young man. 57 is not old and maybe you should try and have some ambitions yourself.
Regarding what you say about relationships, I just don't know what to say. For someone who agrees that you have to bend and change with the relationship, I am quite gob smacked that your unable to change.
Regarding your critism of me it is true. For one day, for our wedding day I do expect family and friends to make exceptions. If people can't make exceptions for us for that one day, then when can they? As for the vicar, we asked but it is church policy and we respect that. If we had tried hard we would have looked around for other churches or we could have got married in a Methodist church. We didn't choose to go down this route.
As for saying that you feel a bit fed up that you take the disappointment and upset all the time, this is up to you. If you feel this is the case then it is up to you to change by people react differently to you.
And for the last bit.... yes it is fair but we don't need a martyr. This is a celebration for me and XXXXX (husband) starting the rest of our life together. If you want to come and celebrate with us then please do, but if you want to be with your unfairness and upset, I suggest you don't come.
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Yes, your father is the one to walk you down the isle... but when your father has only been a part time dad with years where we had no contact, and also threw his daughter out of his house... it get's a bit difficult.
You and Mum divorced and I lived with her and XXXXXX (stepdad). Yes it was an unfair situation and always will be but that is how it was. You don't have to suffer in silence, but you do have to let it go. You are not actually being forgiving but brooding and until you let it go and just say, well, it was unfair but it was out of my hands, you will always have a major problem with it.
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And that's ok then... you just sent me back to live with mum because of my attitude. You keep telling yourself that. The fact that I slept on the floor for a week and then had a bedsit is nothing to do with you. What 17 year old knows how to behave and act when her father and his girlfriend split up hey? I don't think that's in the standard book of growing up. I am partly responsible but you were the adult and when you really look at the facts, your girlfriend left you and you told your daughter to go because she made you beans on toast. You were 8 years older when your dad threw you out, bit of a difference.
As to my choice for not wanting to come every two weeks.... how do you think it was for me as a child? Do you not remember the arguments on the doorstep when you dropped me off? They couldn't talk to you but you wouldn't leave and they used to end up closing the door in your face. I hated it and all I really wanted was to be like the other kids at school. Play in the park, go to the shops etc.
When I lived in XXXXXXX it was just as easy for you to pop over for 1/2 an hour for a cup of tea with me. I'm sorry but it's a two way thing and I'm fed up of this being so one sided. To start with I didn't come out for the day with you because I had such little money myself. It was hard enough just paying for me doing two jobs, let alone have some left over to pay for you also. That first year in the bedsit was incredibly tough and it was down to XXXXXX (my old boss) and XXXXXXX (friend) and her dad who helped me. I spent quite a few evenings with XXXXXX (friend) and her dad and stayed over often. They helped keep my head above water. I always remember that while XXXXXX (friend) was at college soon after I moved, they did a questionnaire. It classed people as well off, middling, or paupers. I was a pauper because I didn't have a colour TV, no phone, no dressing gown, no washing machine and many more things. It was actually because of XXXXXX (friend) and her dad that I could go out at all. If I hadn't have stayed at theirs a couple of nights a week, I would have been completely peniless.
If you were proud it would show, but it doesn't. Even when you come over and we take XXXXXX (his dog) for a walk... anyone you meet you get talking for 5 mins and then say "that's my daughter by the way". It's just so dismissive and I just wish the ground would open up and swallow me.
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Until you realise your responsibility, what part you play, life will always be unfair to you. I do understand why you thought I could right wrongs done to you, but I was a small child at the time. You may not know this but when parents divorce, the child normally blames him or herself. I cannot right what wrongs you feel has been done to you... I am not responsible for anything that happened between you and Mum. I am also not responsible for Mum remarrying and XXXXXX (stepdad) becoming my stepdad. I am also not responsible for XXXXXX (stepdad) treating me like his own child and which results in me having the relationship with him like I do. The only way I can describe it is you are my father, but he is my dad.
It depends how you look at it regarding the speeches and I should have realised that you would probably have looked at it like that. Never mind. You say about the facts for me wanting someone else to walk down the isle but the facts are XXXXXX (stepdad) was like a dad to me and my dad walks me down the isle. Maybe you were like you were because of your own relationship with your father.
Yes, I did want to try and have a better relationship with you but I think it may just be too difficult. As for doubting and questioning, all I can say is that I just find it so confusing. You say one thing, then it changes, then it's something else. Take your back for instance... first it was your coccyx, then it was a disc when all along the doctor was questioning your psychological health. I don't have the brain of britain but I'm not stupid. I read up enough to know that what you were saying didn't add up and I spoke to others who did have bad backs, trouble with their coccyx bones and with degenerative discs. Fair enough, you believe what you believe and thats why you think your honest and genuine.
Yes, your breadloaf costs the same and you feel you are the only person who still pays your own car tax and gets no financial help. You feel this is unfair which is understandable. However when the social said about applying to the DLA, you feel that you'll get more but lose elsewhere. Again, that would be unfair. It doesn't matter what anyone does, you would still feel it would be unfair and you would be hard done to.
I'm not really the cause of your depression and misery but I can see why you believe I am. If you seriously believe that I have caused you days of depression and misery then we really should call it a day and go our separate ways because things are not going to get any better.
I am tired of this and I'm very fed up. I should be really happy, enjoying my engagement with XXXXX (my husband) and planning the wedding and that's what I want my priorities to be.
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I will tell you this... When I set up you coming to visit last, I was thinking that you could meet people so you would know some people for the wedding. That was partly why I set up the stock car meeting (the other part was I knew you would enjoy it), why you met XXXXX (Brother in law) & XXXXX (wife), why you met XXXXXXX (husband) parents etc. I thought you would enjoy doing the speech because you like talking more than most. I thought giving you the speech would be your chance to say how you felt about us and let you have your input which I said to you at the time.
I was trying to arrange everything to please everyone as much as possible in the circumstances... I thought that we could have separate tables but you could sit with XXXXX (BIL) & XXXXX (wife) because you had met them and spent the evening with XXXX (BIL). I asked if you wanted to bring anyone so you would feel as comfortable as possible. I asked if you wanted to invite any family members from your side.
I did all this for you and but obviously I didn't consider your feelings in the slightest. All you have ended up doing for me is marring my experience of planning our wedding and causing me hurt and upset. And after all this, you still believe that you are the one who was wronged, even though I made my choice partly because you told me to leave because I only made you beans on toast! Maybe you should think about some of the things I have said to you and think about what your Grandad would say to you because I really don't think he would be singing your praises right now. Even if I had said you to walk me down the isle, it would have been something else..... If you read up about child psychology, you will find that the child always tries to please the parent. If it doesn't happen, the child will try harder and harder and keeps trying until it comes to the point where they can do no more.... where they can give no more and I am at this point.
Even this mornings e-mail, where I asked how you felt it could be rectified, but you couldn't be bothered to respond. There are only so many olive branches and until you realise that a lot of this has come about because of your actions, your words and this is your consequence, I really don't want to know you anymore and I don't want you at our wedding... any of it. For the first time this has been something that has been about me, totally me and you felt that I was selfish for wanting people to make an exception. That really says a lot.
When you are willing to apologise and give something, I will be willing to listen.
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Unfortunately I do still feel hurt and angry because I don't feel you have acknowledged and accepted my feelings and views, and I feel hurt and angry that you expect me to agree with you and follow your views. These feelings are my reaction to you and are not going to change so unfortunately I cannot see a way forward, unless I agree with you, do what you want etc. Doing that might benefit you but unfortunately it doesn't benefit me and I will be left feeling more annoyed, hurt and angry which is why I don't agree with you and we are just going to go round in circles. I cannot go back to the father/daughter relationship we did have because I felt that I just listened to you, invited you over, tried to please you and I felt it wasn't reciprocated so I ended up feeling annoyed, hurt and angry. I feel angry that you expect me to right wrongs you feel was done to you, I feel angry that you cannot accept my choices because they don't agree with yours, I feel angry that you blame me for things that is your responsibility. These are not reasonable things to expect. I feel despair if I think we will just drift back to the kind of relationship we had and I really don't want to do that... even if that happened it still doesn't resolve the issues and this would just come to light again at a later date, except I would be feeling more angry. Like I have said before, it does depend on you and the outcome depends on you. I have done all I can.
That said, I do sincerely wish you all the best and hope you are well. As I have said before I am happy for you that you have XXXXXX (his dog) and are enjoying your boat. I am sorry but I just cannot see a solution and I am not prepared to keep going around in circles.
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I'm sorry you cannot accept me for being ME - I'll say again AND AGAIN AND AGAIN, I do accept you. That is why I acknowledge that I'm happy you have XXXXXX (his dog) and your boat, that is why I listen, that is why I hear your views and I also acknowledge your views. You don't listen!!!!! What I don't accept is that you seem unable to appreciate my views and my thoughts because they don't agree with your own. So please get the issue straight before you blame me (which you have done in the I'm sorry you cannot accept me for being ME).
So if anything I'm sorry that you cannot accept me for being ME!!!!!!
I only sent you a thank you because you actually took time out to buy a card with daughter on it. In previous years you have forgotten my birthday altogether so I was surprised.
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These are your words - you don't accept me for being me, you only made me beans on toast when I asked you to get my tea when I was understandably inconsolable, I thought you may like to right wrongs which have been done to me, you've caused me days of misery. You are responsible for these words. You cannot dispute that. These words mean - it's your fault for not accepting me as I am, it's your fault for only making me beans on toast so I had to tell you to go, it's your fault for not righting wrongs that have happened to me, it's your fault for causing me days of misery. This is your coping mechanism to blame and this proves that you don't accept personal responsibility whatever you say.
I have spoke to two professional qualified counsellors who have told me it is time to draw the line and move on, that I have done all I can to mend fences and that I have done more than should have been expected of me. I have accepted you as you are and accepted that you will not change. There really is nothing more that I can do and I have accepted that.
No contact means that now - no contact. I shall not be sending you cards and I feel a good 100% sure this is not something I will feel differently about in years to come. The counsellors have helped me realise this and I am telling you so you are aware and not under any false hopes and it means I can draw a line under it.
I hope you have a nice life.
Ok.... that's the lot!
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I have to be honest.. I read most of it, but not every single word. I read all of your father's posts, I didn't then need to read all of yours because already I felt like I was reading things my ex could have written. There is that same way of writng that you can't quite put your finger on, that kind of "weirdness" that you somehow know isn't normal, but you cannot exactly say why...
The lack of self-blame, the "my way only" mentality... all those N characteristics that are so so familiar to me now. I think you have done everything you could have done... There is no reasoning with N's. I have learnt that myself. I have the same kind of emails from my ex, with the same responses from me Always trying one last time to get them to understand. It has taken me a year to learn that there is no point at all. Distance is the only way. You weren't too harsh H&H... the only fault is the same that so many of us have -- trying too hard for too long. Giving them chances they didn't deserve. You owe it to yourself to frgive yourself and move on. Forget about him now, he doesn't deserve you.
Take care xx
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Hey H&H,
Sorry about the situation with your Dad. Like Cadbury, I haven't read every word yet but I am very confused about the whole beans and toast thing. Is he really holding a grudge against you because you 'only' made him beans and toast!?!
Sorry, but I find that really unfathomable. :shock:
......
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I believe he really holds that grudge but I just dont understnd why. Sounds very bizarre.
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Thank you Cadbury & Stayhuman. Thank you for reading even some of it... I know it is very long winded and there is so so much there.
Rationally speaking I know he's quite a fruit loop (sorry that's not a very PC term), however emotionally speaking I just can't seem to cut ties completely.
Stayhuman, regarding the beans on toast. When I was 17, his young girlfriend left him (however you will see that he says she was taken from him - WTF!!!.... She dumped him, moved in with another guy and was married 6 months later.), so he asked me to get his tea for him. I made him beans on toast and then he decided he couldn't cope and told me to get out. Recently because of the wedding and all the agro with him, I told him it was difficult because he threw me out. This is where this is coming from.... he didn't throw me out, he told me to leave because I could only be bothered to make him beans on toast, therefore changing something that is his fault, into mine. In his mind, nothing he could do about it... she should have made me a better meal and then I wouldn't have asked her to leave.
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...he didn't throw me out, he told me to leave because I could only be bothered to make him beans on toast, therefore changing something that is his fault, into mine. In his mind, nothing he could do about it... she should have made me a better meal and then I wouldn't have asked her to leave.
Ok H&H...a couple of questions to think about.....no need to answer if you'd rather not.
1. Did you go back and spend years trying to make him a better meal (trying to proove you could make a better meal)?
2. Are you still trying, one last time....to make him a better meal (by analysing his stuff..maybe you can figger out what to cook...to satisfy him or find out what's wrong with your meal preparation)?
The beans and toast are a really clear example, maybe, of exactly what buttons he pushed and your response to that (???????).
Maybe I'm waaaaaaaay off but I just thought I'd mention this in case there is any truth to it. If you've been trying to resolve the same issue, over and over, for many, many years.........it makes sense why it is so difficult to let go. Especially.....if you haven't put your finger on the issue.
(((((((((((((((((H&H))))))))))))))))))
Beans and toast were fine..... a wholesome, filling choice........considerate of you to bother. He totally ignored/discounted/devalued your attempt to be kind and he tried to convince you that you did something wrong.....maybe you felt like you weren't adequate, after his lousy comment?
It never ceases to amaze me how good some people are at doing this!!
Sela
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Hi ((((((((((((((((((((((((((Sela))))))))))))))))))))))))
1. Did you go back and spend years trying to make him a better meal (trying to proove you could make a better meal)?
No... every time I have cooked for him after this, I have made him something better, however I haven't cooked for him that often since. We had the same thing when we got a chinese takeaway to share... went on and on about how it wasn't proper food. Fine, if you don't want it, go and sort yourself something out... funnily enough he ate it, still whinging. Because he threw me out, although he's been around it's been quite limited contact, 3/4 times a year. When he threw me out Mum & bio dad were arguing because neither of them wanted me. That hurts.
2. Are you still trying, one last time....to make him a better meal (by analysing his stuff..maybe you can figger out what to cook...to satisfy him or find out what's wrong with your meal preparation)?
Since I've been with my husband, he has done the cooking when my bio dad's been round... and then bio.dad's looked down his nose at me, thinks hubby is a joke for doing the cooking and well, I'm not a very good wife.
It wasn't just the beans on toast, it was everything. We did our house up and he came round to stay for a weekend and trashed it with his words, then let the dog on our cream sofas (honestly one of the cushions that you sit on was so covered in drool it was saturated). I've nothing against dogs and we've looked after several dogs, however we just don't let them on our sofas as we make sure they have their own comfy bed.... or if they do go on the sofa we have a throw to put on first. I felt to do that in your own house is fine, but I know I wouldn't go into someone else's house and say "come on then, jump up here". Just so blooming rude.... hubby was fuming but let it lie as it was my dad. Then he went on about what great houseguests they were. It was bonfire night and the poor dog was petrified by the fireworks. Would sit there shaking with terror after each one, so I went to pet the dog and give him some attention. Bio dad went, No, leave him, he'll take it that your rewarding him for shaking. For quite a few years I believed this because he had been to dog handling classes and stuff, but now I don't see how this can be true either.
H&H xx
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Deeeeaaaaaarrrrr ((((((H&H)))))))))))))))))),
I read every word and ached for you. The torturousness of it. It's like trying to waltz with a one-legged man. The problem I see is that because your BioNDad is intelligent, it's harder to argue with his craziness. He is intelligent but he irrational, and full of self-pity, blame, and guile. You are trying to deal with him in a straightforward, logical, fair, and compassionate manner. And it's literally like trying to make a sandwich out of stones, then sit there chewing it and trying to pretend it's not really breaking your teeth.
I think it's your kind heart that wants to rescue him, in spite of how thoroughly, totally self-absorbed he is. You have exhausted yourself trying, and nothing you said was wrong or unfair. The right and fair thing is, you do sound as though you want to put a stop to it. I think there will be a grieving period when your actions catch up with your intention to be free of this anchor around your neck. Maybe the continuing impulses to "try" are to avoid that final grief. It is SO hard to grieve the dead relationships with still-living Ns, but I think that may be what you're going through.
I admire you so much for your courage. But I do think you've earned your freedom now. Many times over. He can sit on his boat grumbling and blaming and condemning, and things will end for him one day as they have to. It is sad, but there's really no way to change his destiny.
Hugs,
Hopalong
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Hi H&H,
honestly, I could not read much. You Nbiodad is disturbed. I would not take to heart anything he says or writes. He does not think logically. Do not try and unravel and address his 'issues'. It will make you crazy. Don't spend your life wrapped up in his tortured world. You cannot save him. Save yourself and your own family. None of this is your fault. What is wrong with him, you could never have caused in the least.
Plucky
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Dear H&H:
Thankyou for that big hug. That's just what I needed today (seriously).
I'm sorry I wasn't clear enough about what I was really asking. Rather than actual cooking.....I was really asking more about ....the behaviour of trying to be accepted as adequate or even....(imagine)....appreciated.
You did something nice for him (made him beans and toast).
He insulted you and devalued your behaviour and even blamed you for causing a problem (crazy making).
Did you feel inadequate, unacceptable, unappreicated?
...therefore changing something that is his fault, into mine.
I guess I was wondering if you've been able to notice a repeat of that type of thing......over the years?Where you try to do something nice and he totally puts you down and acts like you've caused a problem?
Also....if you feeeeeeeel like you must proooove something to him?? (or maybe are not aware of that feeling??).
This is something I think I did, in the past, but was not aware of. Did you find yourself trying over and over to please him? (again....no need to answer if you'd rather not).
This might be nutty but it just looks like a possibility.
No... every time I have cooked for him after this, I have made him something better, however I haven't cooked for him that often since.
So would you say that you didn't serve him toast and beans again because it wasn't good enough for him, because he would likely insult you again and because he would have more evidence of your inadequacy? You made him something better to show you could? And you were careful to avoid doing that very often to avoid his criticism and the feelings it evoked???
When he threw me out Mum & bio dad were arguing because neither of them wanted me. That hurts.
I'm so sorry that happened. That would hurt a lot. Parents are supposed to support us.....especially in times of crisis. Your parents failed and worse.......they hurt you. So sorry H&H.
....we've looked after several dogs, however we just don't let them on our sofas as we make sure they have their own comfy bed...
That was rude and nasty for him to let those dogs on your sofa and leave it covered in drool. Betcha he was jealous of the lovely job you had done of the place and so he tried to sabotage it.
About the shaking dogs.......gee.......my dog is terrified of thunderstorms, gun shots and such loud sounds.....she shakes like a leaf. I always talk soothingly to her and give her hugs and pats when she's upset like that. She always comes near me and sometimes she stops shaking, so that tells me she feels better. Maybe he was afraid his dog would like you better than him? Or he couldn't stand to see you do something he would never do.....
give kindness and expect nothing in return.
Tell ya one thing.......in my next life.......I'd rather come back as your dog than his.
:D Sela
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((((((((((((((((Hoppy)))))))))))))))))) ((((((((((((((((((((((Plucky))))))))))))))))) ((((((((((((((((((((((((Sela)))))))))))))))))))))
(((((((((((Hoppy))))))))))))... the way you are able to see things never ceases to amaze me. I feel that you have a great ability there hon. You are so right that he is intelligent. At my granddad's funeral when I was about 21/22, my aunt (his sister) said that my bio dad was always the intelligent one. I looked at her in amazement, because for years he's blamed it on bad schooling, bad memory etc. And it makes sense to me about trying to avoid the grief... if I can help him, I don't have to deal with feeling like the pits for not having contact.
((((((((((Plucky))))))))))).... for posting "Don't spend your life in his tortured world". You are right, it is my life and I do have a choice.
(((((((((((Sela))))))))))))))).... I hope today is better than yesterday hon for you. I'm not sure about trying to prove myself to him... I think at the time I felt bewildered about why these people were treating me like this. I think one of my main questions I asked myself was "What have I done?". Now I think I know the answer to that.... it's existed. They were very wrong. Plus the less I have, the more complimentary he is.... like he thought my bedsit was great, however a three bedroomed house which we've done up ourselves, well, that's ok. He hates me having more than he's got however he will not do anything to change things for himself. The better I do, the worse he is so even if I have subconsciously been trying to prove myself to him (which is quite a valid possibility), in the long run it hasn't hurt me as I'm still the one who is much better off, physically, mentally and emotionally. Thank you very much for helping me to see that.
Regarding his dog you may be right about the jealousy with our house... when he came over he suggested we put these iron things up to separate the room which would look nice. Me and Hubby just humoured him with no intention of taking up his idea. Imagine a cosy lounge/dining room, decorated in warm colours with an open fire and then iron bar kind of thing in the middle to split the rooms. Doesn't quite go to me.
And thanks for telling me about your dog... she sounds lovely bless her and lucky to have a lovely owner like you. When we were at his house, his poor dog goes and sits behind the chair and is shaking with fear for a good 2/3, possibly even 5 minutes. Because bio dad went to dog handling classes, and has also told a fair amount of people about dog handling etc, for quite a few years now I really believed he was doing what was best for the poor dog. I hate myself for that now. I think you are spot on with him possibly thinking that his dog would possibly like me better or that I was doing something he couldn't do.
I want to thank you all from the bottom of my heart, for taking time to read, for understanding, and for giving me other perspectives on this. You truly are all a very special bunch of people.
H&H xx
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I'm just posting my thoughts now really, but I've just realised about his post on the website about me disowning him.
Disowning? What an odd choice of word. To disown him I'd have to own him in the first place which is impossible. Also if we look at it from the projection point of view.... if he projects, this is his disowning which makes me think he thought he owned me in the first place.
What do you think?
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Hiya H&H:
Thanks for another hug. Today is better. Thanks for your good wishes.
You truly are very special too.
Re: owning.....disowning. Ya. Like chattel. I don't know him but the choice of words sure seems like he's talking about some kind of property?? Maybe not...some people just use that word "disown" to describe situations where family members stop their relationships. Who knows? Could be......or not a projection???
What do you care? You have your own life right? Let him tell his web mates whatever he wants. It's all his fantasy world anyhow....if he wants to build it out of false stuff......goodie for him.
What's in it for you, do you think, reading that website? (if you feel like answering that is).
:D Sela
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Hey H&H,
What do you achieve by reading his web rants?
It seems like it's luring you in and you don't want that! I really don't think it's good for you to be reading his tripe. It's not real. It's his perception. It's not even that in some cases, it's all a show or something, either way, I don't think it helps you in your goal to let go.
It's obvious you have so many questions that need answering, and so many unresolved issues with him, but those posts on that website are not going to give you the answers you are looking for! You aren't able to defend yourself in this situation! :( He is able to rant and bullshit his way through these online posts... there he is having his freedom of speech and re-writing history and you are there voiceless and unable to protest. Why do you insist in putting yourself in that position? It seems like you are recreating this atmosphere you grew up in? It's obvious it is not making you happy...You deserve more than this. xx
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Wow... thank you for being so honest with me. Gosh. To be honest I actually thought I was just pondering his words, however.... errrmmmm yes. I will reply more indepth once I've really thought about your questions... however in response to your post Selkie, I have one more question
It's obvious you have so many questions that need answering, and so many unresolved issues with him
How? How do I get my questions answered? Patient confidentiality means the doctor's can't talk to me, counsellor's think I should let it go, there's no other family or siblings I can talk to. Sorry I know this sounds incredibly negative.
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How? How do I get my questions answered? Patient confidentiality means the doctor's can't talk to me, counsellor's think I should let it go, there's no other family or siblings I can talk to. Sorry I know this sounds incredibly negative.
Hi H&H,
thanks for the hug. I needed one!
I know you want answers. But your NBD cannot provide them, You can wade through his swamp for the rest of his life and yours. You will never, ever find the answers that way.
He most likely has no idea why he behaves the way he does. You think he is intellligent. I think he can't reason his way out of a paper bag. Everything you read from his web of lies (cute pun, huh?) just creates more questions, not answers. Do you feel any more resolved since you found that cesspool? I rest my case. Don't go in any further. You could drown.
The answers you are looking for will come from talking to people who have been through a like experience before, either personally or vicariously, such as an N survivor or a therapist. Some are both.
Don't apologise for your feelings and desires. I think Selkie's comment was brilliant. You are collaborating with NBD to recreate a situation of voicelessness as you had when a child, and you think that you can find your way out this time. If this is pride, then let it go. If you are just stuck, stop and free yourself.
Plucky
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Thank you (((((((((((((((((((((((((Sela)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((Selkie)))))))))))))))))))))))))))) and (((((((((((((((((((((((Plucky))))))))))))))))) for taking time to reply.
Sela, I will always try and answer your questions... if you can take the time to ask me a question, the least I can do is take the time to reply to it.
What do you care?
I'm not sure why I care but I do.... for some stupid reason I do care. I do care that he is lonely and hurting. I am well aware that he is not thinking the same thing about me, instead he is sat there blaming and grudging, but I also care that he thinks it's all my fault, I care that he doesn't take personal responsibility, even though I know there is nothing I can do about it.
What's in it for you, do you think, reading that website?
What do you achieve by reading his web rants?
I do get some comfort knowing that no one has replied to him. Because no one has actually said "Yes, he has a mental illness, he has whatever", this is one question which has been answered on here, by this post, and I still don't think I have fully accepted it. I think the only thing I achieve is proving to myself that it is him, he is the one with the problem. Reading his weblies can prove this to me again and again. I also think there is alot of truth with what Hoppy said earlier about delaying the grieving period, and looking at the website does delay this. However really I know that Nothing is in it for me and I achieve Nothing by reading, just delaying my own healing....but nothing was in it for me when I was in contact. However when I think about not reading, I feel quite scared. Also I kind of think I have some control.... I worry that if something happens to him I won't know... if it's something serious and he's in a coma or something, will the doctor's still call me? And would I want them to? Does anyone still get in touch with you if they are unable to speak for themselves?
You aren't able to defend yourself in this situation! He is able to rant and bullshit his way through these online posts... there he is having his freedom of speech and re-writing history and you are there voiceless and unable to protest. Why do you insist in putting yourself in that position? It seems like you are recreating this atmosphere you grew up in? It's obvious it is not making you happy...You deserve more than this. xx
I'm very impressed with how you saw this Selkie. Because I have been continually wrong and it's always been about him, I am still very much in that mentality if you know what I mean. His needs first and then mine and I do 100% agree with you. I think on a subconscious level, this is exactly what I've been doing, recreating this atmosphere. I think it's also because it's what's always happened so I kind of feel safe as well which could be my reason for putting myself in that position.
Plucky, I didn't really explain the intelligent comment very well. He is very intelligent, however he is also emotionally very immature. This is a weird combination. You are right he doesn't have any idea why he behaves the way he does. He knows he is different, but doesn't know why and if you try and explain why, he goes straight into blaming mode which is part of the problem in the first place and then he is always right. He's like a hurt child, but without the emotional intelligence to learn to correct that hurt and find ways to resolve problems.
I don't think it's pride that I can't let go... I wouldn't class myself as a very proud person. Yes I am stuck, but I am also scared. What am I scared of? Well that's another question that I don't know the answer to yet.
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((((((((H & H))))))))))))))
I know in relating to my Nparent, I'm often like a well trained pooch. Even though I rationally, up-in-the-head, know so many good reasons to draw fiercer boundaries to protect myself, I'm also reflexively concerned about her wellbeing. It's very hard to cut that out of myself. She bleats so loudly for attention that I can no longer hear my own little exhausted grunts. I find myself foggily going into hypervigilance about how she feels, because she's always trumpeting alarms and bulletins and emergency-sounding calls to action (like, in a voice that ought to be announcing an anthrax attack, "I dropped my earrings!!!"). Meanwhile, I've dropped my work or my attempt to relax to leap under her bed to hunt for them like a trained ferret. Telling her NO, or LATER, often feels like harder work than just doing it.
Sorry, hijacked (inner N spot, damn)....
I wanted to say that I understand, I think, the fear about stopping your monitoring of him. And the worries about how will you know if something happens. For one thing, hypervigilance about this disturbed, never-to-get-better and never-to-truly-father-you father is part of your identity. A big part. And if you begin to substitute other things for that hyperattention to him, there will be a stillness in you that you might confuse with emptiness, and that might be really scary. I think I really understand this, from a different setting, but I think I recognize a lot of what you feel.
I have a book to suggest, enthusiastically. When Things Fall Apart by Pema Chodron. Other folks here have mentioned her too... I don't think the theology of it is important but the insights, the walking-through-that-fear to the other side...is really remarkable. It's kind of an experiential book that I think might be really helpful to you, in what you're experiencing, right now.
I think about compassion, since that's a big value for me (and clearly for you). Somewhere, I feel I get tripped up. I wonder if you also feel that frustration between: what is reasonable compassion one might offer a parent, even an N parent....and what is proper detachment?
I think the fear you mention makes a lot of sense...and I think you really, really are facing the question of what would your life be like if you faced that fear and got free of it.
This is a brave challenge. I can understand why it's not as simple as one day you do it as usual, and one day you stop. But I think you're bravely examining it, and chipping away at it. I really do believe it is beginning to loosen its grip on you.
Kudos, kind one. I'd much rather keep rambling than get back to work, but it's time for me to face that again too. I will be cheering though!
Hopalong
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Thanks again for the hugs H&H.
1. Wonder if another thing might be to look at it as kind of like trying to break an annoying habit?
It sounds like you want to detach but are just finding it soooo difficult (like breaking any habit). Often changing behaviour (breaking a habit) comes about in little steps. If it were possible for you to consider taking wee tiny steps and making small changes......things might not seem so drastic.
For instance......at first......let's say you read this website daily......maybe you could skip one day??
Maybe you would keep reading for a couple of days and then try to skip reading one more day?
After awhile........you find you're only reading every second day? Then every third? Then weekly?
Pretty soon.......it just doesn't seem necessary to read there much at all?
2. Also......another idea that might help........what if you were to think of this as temporary?
If you don't read for a day and you find you feel ok afterward, fine.....but if you feel totally freaked...you can go back to reading every day, until you work more on changing your thinking...and getting to a point where you can comfortably skip a day? (as an example pretending you read the thing daily). You could decide to stop reading for awhile.........and possibly resume......later.......if you so choose.
3. Another thought.........moving away from reading this web site does not mean giving up your feelings of caring. You can still care about this man without confusing yourself by reading his mixed up postings. You don't have to stop caring ever. But it is your responsibility to look after you and if reading this stuff is upsetting you, interefering in your life at all, or messing you up in any way.....then maybe it is something you could decide to work on changing?
As to worrying about him becoming deathly ill and you not knowing about it......I understand that worry but my question to myself (when I was worrying about the same thing) was:
If I can't share his life.........why am I so concerned about sharing his death?
I had no contact with my father for 11 years but the hospital managed to contact me when the end was near. If it is meant to be.......so it will go.
I could only pray for him and take care of me, the rest of the time.
Sela
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(((((((((((Hoppy))))))))))))) hon, I know what you mean about you Nmum. One thing I always say about mine is "Why do something calmly and rationally when you can flap about it for a few hours beforehand" (note the sarcasm) :o) I will check out the book you recommend. And of course.... a parent is part of you, like if your in a relationship for a long time with a boyfriend, it is hard to let go, you feel scared etc, so I guess this is a similiar kind of thing.
One thing I have to say I'm really beginning to see from the website is what it is... all it is for him is N-supply. If people don't answer one post, he will just post another with something about him. All it is, is like an attention seeking child.
(((((((((((((((Sela)))))))))))))) hon, you are right... it is a habit.... but I don't know if now I'm beginning to see his posts for what they are, then it may be easier. One plus thing is that we go on holiday in just over a week for two weeks so I won't have any access to the internet. Maybe I will look when I get back, maybe I won't but I am going to try when I come back to say "I deserve better" and to change my way of thinking.
Very interesting question.... if I can't share his life.... why am I so concerned about sharing his death? For me this would be closure I think.
Take care all
H&H xx
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Hiya H&H:
Hey! So glad to hear you're going on holidays soon!! Hope you will have a fantastic time!!
I am going to try when I come back to say "I deserve better" and to change my way of thinking.
You do deserve better! Sounds like a good plan. Take care of you H&H. Good for you!
Very interesting question.... if I can't share his life.... why am I so concerned about sharing his death? For me this would be closure I think.
Closure.........how do you mean? (if you feel like saying).
Would you visit him on his death bed, do you think, and hope to connect with him, finally, before he goes? Would you agonize over whether or not to visit him?
Would you just be glad that he's finally on his death bed? (maybe not nice but.....hey.......depending the amount of abuse a person has sustained.......understandable).
For me........none of that happened (except maybe a little of the last one......because I was glad he could no longer hurt anyone). But there was no contact. I made decisions in the background. It felt weird and I was confused when he died. Very strange....like I should be sad for him going but I wasn't. How can you mourn the loss of someone you never had a connection with in the first place? I was sad for the father I could have had, the one I didn't lose ......more for my own loss of living my whole life without a connection with my father, than anything truly involving him. I think I might have been willing to visit too.......because I was curious about a possibility of him owning his behaviour, or trying to connect with me.......but the nurse told me, on the phone, that she had said to him:
"Sela's Father! You have two daughters and a son!"
and his response was: "And I don't want to see any of them!!! It's none of your business!"
AS IFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF.............................
we had done some wrong to HIM and deserved to be banished!!!!!!!!!!!!
I felt embarassed and insulted........shamed.... when the nurse told me that. I didn't know what to say to her. I just said:
"Ok then."
"Why do something calmly and rationally when you can flap about it for a few hours beforehand" (note the sarcasm)
Well........they say sarcasm is passive agression and maybe it is......but sometimes, it is funny.
Like when someone would ask: "Where's the milk?"
And my mother would answer: "It's in the oven!"
:D Sela
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(((((((((((((((((Sela)))))))))))))))))))))) I am so sorry to hear of how your father behaved on his death bed. It's appalling but it wasn't your fault and there was no reason for you to be embarrassed or ashamed. It was his problem.
By closure.... I mean to say goodbye. The last thing I have said to him is "Have a nice life" so this would mean I could say goodbye for good.
I would see him on his death bed, but not to try and connect with him. There is no way I can connect with him, however his dad refused to see him on his death bed. This hurt him a great deal and because he has no emotional personal responsibility for anything, he doesn't make decisions. I think he will just whinge and blame and complain about the problem until you make a decision.... and then he will go along with whatever decision you made because it's all your fault and there's nothing he can do about it. Make any sense? There is also the possibility that he could decide to be like his dad and choose not to see me in which case it would be his decision. At the end of the day, whatever happens, I do think I will still be the one clearing his house out and sorting out his affairs because there isn't anybody else.
Going back to his dad it was weird. He didn't have much contact with his dad and then no contact for the last two years because his dad decided to cut contact and not see him again (however this is only what he's told me so we don't know how true things are). However he went to his dad's funeral (as did I, I felt such a fake because I didn't know the man), he cried like a baby, loudy sobbing, big streams of snot hanging from his nose. I just remember feeling embarrassed.... and it was then that I found out he had a sister. No mention of her beforehand.
Yes, a part of me would be glad, glad that he's not hurting anymore, not wondering why he's different and coming to irrational conclusions.
H&H xx
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Dear H&H, you and your Pa remind me of me and my mother. So here’s a load of my projections on to what you’ve said. Can I just say quickly.... (((Plucky))) (((Sela))) (thanks for the PMs).
You are not responsible for him. He chooses to be the way he is. It’s his choice.
Why do you want to change his choice? He doesn’t appear to want help or advice to me. He seems to know himself what is ‘right’ and what is ‘wrong’.
In fact knowing what’s ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ seems to very important to him. I have no idea whether he has a mental illness. Perhaps being a complete bigot could be classified as an illness? Being a spoilt, manipulative adult who uses his daughter for his own selfish needs – maybe that’s an illness? Does it matter what label we apply to him?
Whatever he does or thinks is his responsibility. Nothing he does or thinks is your fault or your responsibility. Nothing!
Is he the one with the problem? He might be getting some sick, warped needs met….does he have a problem? What exactly is the problem….how would you define it? (Please think about it. Write it. Be as precise as you can.)
If you stop reading his website: if he had died yesterday – how would you feel? What are you afraid of?
Also I kind of think I have some control.... I worry that if something happens to him I won't know... if it's something serious and he's in a coma or something, will the doctor's still call me? And would I want them to?
Maybe you harbour a deep and understandable human wish that he will turn to you on his deathbed and look at you with a love you’ve been waiting for all your life. He’ll say what you want to hear “I’m sorry, please forgive me for hurting you, I love you” and you’ll be able to accept his love and forgive him. You can try this now, in your head, but in reality........
Would this be the grieving you might need to help you separate from him? He doesn’t have to die for you to grieve the relationship that never was – and never will be. It’s not fair and it’s all by chance; it’s not our fault that some of us were born into families where there wasn’t any love, or not enough love. It was just unlucky. Grieving is necessary.
He's like a hurt child, but without the emotional intelligence to learn to correct that hurt and find ways to resolve problems.
You’re probably correct. But he’s an adult and he’s your parent. You’re not his parent. He was supposed to nurture, protect, love you and give you the confidence and independence to leave him to pursue your own happiness. I’m very very sorry that he was unable to be a Dad to you. He’s simply unable. There’s no right or wrong here, it’s just the way it is and it won’t change. Nothing you could do would change him.
But you do have the power to change your own mind. You have a great mind!
I feel for you H&H. What you’re trying to do must be one of the most difficult things in the world to do. I believe everyone must find their own way to do it. Books might help on an intellectual level. And if the rational part of your brain starts to believe something, it might help the emotional part. Grieving is all emotional: it’s not logical, it can’t be planned, it can’t be hurried along and you can’t make yourself do it. But that hurt, confused, unloved, manipulated little girl inside you needs to get soooo angry with her Dad before she can grieve the love never given.
You burden nobody by posting your stuff. You have every right to speak and be heard. You are a lovable, very intelligent (IQ) and empathetic (EQ) woman. Were you too hard on him? Do I think you did the right thing? I want to know where your father gets off making his daughter feel responsible for him. Maybe he thinks you’re his mother? Whatever.
Anyway, did you say this? “Letting go of your sense of over responsibility for others.”
Way to go H&H! You know it, but knowing isn’t feeling. Feeling is very difficult, or at least I have found it so.
(By the way, nobody dies if they don’t honour their mother or/and father. I’m living proof.)
Take care of yourself. You deserve lots of care. And love. (((H&H)))
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Dear dear Healing and Hopeful! You are right on in my opinion. What I read from his responses is so typical of Ns. He is abusnve and manipulative. He has clear choices and he is CHOOSING(operative word) not to excercise them. In no way your fault and responsibilty. Again, so typical of Ns! You don't owe him anything. Hang in there and keep posting. I so admire your courage and strength. I know it's so difficult , but please believe in yourself and make use of all your healthy and supportive friends etc. Hugs and prayers for you, Moira
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Thank you very much for replying (((((((((((((Portia))))))))))) ((((((((((((((((Moira))))))))))))
I didn't really see it as changing his choice, I think I was just trying to get him to see where I was coming from, why I believe what I do. I thought more along the lines of he can think and believe what he wants, if he would allow me to think and believe what I want.
Regarding a label... in some respects yes it does matter. If you know whats wrong with a person you can read up about it, find out why the person is the way they are, why their responses are like they are, find out if there is anything you can do about it, and mainly find out that the problem is them and not you. I'm not the one with trust issues, I'm not the one who should believe what he believes just because I'm his daughter and I'm not the one being disrespectful. I never asked for his or Mum's love and I never asked for them to be there for me. All I ask is that they respect my choices, my beliefs and my values and one better would be to be happy for me. Mum can do this to a certain extent and at least she doesn't berate me for my choices. I do believe they love me in their own way, it's just different from mine.
Regarding the problem, that can change daily. I don't think I can define exactly what the problem is...
Is the problem that he has NPD and is unable/unwilling to do anything about it?
Is the problem that he is just a git?
Is the problem that I don't accept him as he is?
Is the problem that if I was more caring/kind/helpful then I would be able to do something about it?
Is the problem just me, that I'm a cow?
If he'd died yesterday, how would I feel? I find it so difficult to put myself in this mindset that I just don't know. Sad I think would be my main feeling. I do believe that life is too short and you should make the most of it... I do believe that life is too short for fallouts/disagreements and I do believe that you can't change anyone else, you can only change yourself and your reactions.
What am I afraid of? I suppose deep deep down I am afraid of him dying thinking so badly of me.... thinking what a horrible, uncaring daughter I am for disowning him. I am not under any illusion that he will suddenly turn on his deathbed and said "I'm sorry, please forgive me for hurting you, I love you" I cannot even imagine him saying this in my head, I am well away this will not happen. But I do think I've put up with him for years, so if I can't put up (yes you read that right, put up, not liked, not enjoyed his company, not loved) with him on his deathbed then that would make me a very poor individual.
Sometimes I do feel so angry with him... I feel so angry that if I saw him I would just go crazy and pummel his face with my fists. I am very careful as well not to take this anger out on my husband. Most of the time it works but I'm not perfect. I release my anger by singing at the top of my voice along to the radio in the car, I release it by screaming sometimes, in the car down the lane. Sometimes I just feel sorry for him and sometimes I just feel sorry for me.
It really does help me to hear that I did do the right thing.
Thanks for listening to me again....
H&H xx
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Hiya H&H. Some more questions for you. :D
he can think and believe what he wants, if he would allow me to think and believe what I want.
Is he stopping you thinking and believing what you want? Very serious question.
All I ask is that they respect my choices, my beliefs and my values
This would be good but it may not be possible with your Dad. You may have to accept that he won’t do that.
Is the problem just me, that I'm a cow?I don’t think so! No!
Is the problem that if I was more caring/kind/helpful then I would be able to do something about it? Do something about what? If you were different......he'd change?
Is the problem that he has NPD and is unable/unwilling to do anything about it?
Is the problem that he is just a git?
Look at it this way, if the ‘problem’ was that he had purple eyes, what could you do? Get an eye transplant for him, or coloured contacts? Suppose he didn’t think having purple eyes was a problem?....that’s simply how different people view everyday reality.
One way to look at the problem is to ask the people around you that know him: “Do you think my Dad has a problem?” Seriously. What do other people think? And why do you think differently, if you do....
Is the problem that I don't accept him as he is? You can’t change him, you know that. So what are the alternatives?
what a horrible, uncaring daughter I am for disowning him
Maybe this is what you secretly think about yourself? You seem to have been conditioned into thinking that you’re responsible for him. And he’s done that to you. That’s called abuse when parents use their children for their own needs. Parents do a great job when they respect, love and help their children. Does he respect you? Does he help you? Has he cared for you, cuddled you, let you cry on his shoulder, protected you, defended you……all those ‘normal’ things a loving parent does without ever expecting anything, anything in return. Parents do do these things. Some parents don’t use their kids. When you’ve been used, that’s difficult to believe. I didn't used to believe it.
You’re obviously not horrible, uncaring or disowning. Quite the opposite: you maybe care too much. That sounds odd? Duty and obligation are not love. Parents who train their kids to obey them, to follow rules, to think this way, to behave that way – that’s not love. It’s training. It’s okay to say you ‘put up’ with him. And you deserve a medal! I kind of agree about ‘putting up with’ on his deathbed. That’s one thing you could do for him, be there. But everything else? You don’t owe him, you’re not obligated even if HE thinks so. You’re both adults and you disagree. That’s what adults do. REAL adults talk about disagreements and agree to disagree but I doubt your Dad could do that.
When you get angry, if you could say just one thing to him right then, what would it be? “Dad………..”
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((((((((((((((Portia)))))))))))))))) I do appreciate you taking time to ask me questions and give me your perspective. It is really helpful.... thank you!
he can think and believe what he wants, if he would allow me to think and believe what I want.
Is he stopping you thinking and believing what you want? Very serious question.
Ahhh yes.... there is no way he can stop me thinking and believing what I want to believe. He can moan and groan and gripe about how it doesn't tally in with his, but he can't stop me believing in my own choices and values. I have the choice to agree with his, or disagree and keep with my own thoughts. When he was going on about God giving the world to the devil and that my beliefs were wrong, I tried to picture what it was like to believe this. I was watching the news and it is such a depressive belief. It takes away people's control over their actions, that everything is pre-determined (not sure if that's the right word or not!). I snapped straight out of it because it felt so horrendous.
Is the problem that if I was more caring/kind/helpful then I would be able to do something about it? Do something about what? If you were different......he'd change?
When I sent the last e-mail in April I thought that the only way we could have a relationship was if I became him... however over the coming months self doubts have crept in and I wondered if I was too hasty and didn't try enough. At the end of the day though this comes down to he would need to change which is something that will never happen.
One way to look at the problem is to ask the people around you that know him: “Do you think my Dad has a problem?” Seriously. What do other people think? And why do you think differently, if you do....
I haven't asked people do you think my dad has a problem, but I have asked What do you think of him?
My husband thinks he's weird, but he always tolerated him because of me.
Mum hates him with a passion, and always has done a long as I can remember. However for years when I was growing up she hated me with the same passion so maybe that's not a reliable source.
My stepdad dealt with him, however only because Mum wouldn't. I'm not sure what he actually thinks of him.
One of his boating friends thinks he's good boating company, however he did say he can be a difficult person to know, let alone be related to.
My brother in law (who's met him once) thought he was odd but an ok guy.
The neighbours (who are good friends of hours!) thought he was ok (again who he's met once) and asked me last weekend why he wasn't at our wedding.
My friend from home who was there when I left Mum's and also came over, thinks that he is just an oddball. She said for him to say that the dog had a fallen woman for a mother means that there obviously isn't something right there!
And they're the only people I can ask, his other friends he's kept well away from me (if they actually exist... may sound odd, but on one boating website he did sign in under an anonymous name, although he was a member himself, and start posting about how his friend had a boat (which was actually him and his boat) and being his own biggest cheerleader, then couldn't understand why they barred him from the website!) and his family is me! I think this is possibly why I feel so obligated and responsible. All through my growing up, his dad didn't like him or such and such had happened, you know the poor me, I'm such a victim attitude... it would make sense that even as a child without anyone else telling me differently, I tried to compensate for this.
I don't necessarily think differently to them about him, but I think it may be that I don't trust my own mind so don't trust my reaction. Take a quiz night I went to recently... I knew the answer to a question so I hesitantly said it, however I still asked my husband who said I was right.
Is the problem that I don't accept him as he is? You can’t change him, you know that. So what are the alternatives?
So maybe I do already accept him deep down as I know he's not going to change?... however because I've been told so often that I don't accept him, I believe it instead of believing myself. Sound feasible?
Does he respect you? Eerrrrm... No, because if he did then he would respect my opinions instead of just thinking I should copy his, making me feel that mine aren't worth anything.
Does he help you? He has done once. When I went through a bad time in 1999, I really wanted to go to New Zealand for the millenium. In the April time he lent me the flight money and I paid him back in monthly payments til the December. However if it wasn't for him lending me the money, I wouldn't have been able to go because the flights would have either gone up in price or been fully booked. Also he classes that because he let me live with him, he helped me then.
Has he cared for you? Depends what you mean by cared. If it's come and picked me up every other Saturday and let me live with him when I left Mum's then yes, but it's been sparadic care.
Has he cuddled you? Not cuddled, however he did like me to hug him. Never felt very comfortable though... these great big hugs where he'd hold on for a few minutes... makes me cringe just thinking about it. In fact I don't feel very comfortable anyone hugging me apart from my husband. He is the only person I feel 100% comfortable with hugging. Luckily he hugs me lots.
Has he let me cry on his shoulder? I don't think so... not that I can remember anyway.
Has he protected you? I think this would have to be a no. I remember when I was about 6, the night before I was due to go there was a house fire across the road. The house was a complete burnt out shell. Three children that I used to play with died in that fire. Dad picked me up as normal and then I remember we were stood by the window with a mate of his, watching all the comings and goings. Also when I was 17, he used to try and set me up on dates with his mates.
Has he defended you? Errmmm not sure about this one either.... I remember him and my mum and stepdad having massive arguments on the doorstep to their home but who was defending who, I really can't remember.
When you get angry, if you could say just one thing to him right then, what would it be?
“DAD……….. GET OUT OF MY HEAD/FACE/SPACE WHATEVER!!!!”
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Hi H&H:
Thankyou for the hugs (you too P!! Great to see you posting!! )
I am so sorry to hear of how your father behaved on his death bed. It's appalling but it wasn't your fault and there was no reason for you to be embarrassed or ashamed. It was his problem.
Thankyou for thils. Ofcourse it wasn't my fault but......the nurse didn't know that. I guess I left out the tone she reported this to me in, which was derogatory, and yep...there was no reason for me to feel embarrassed or feel ashamed except that tone....seemed to generate those feelings in me (but it didn't last......I soon recovered :D).
The thing is.......I fail in the speak up and say it how it really is to strangers game. First...such an exchange gives me the message that I have done something wrong and yikes.......guilt creeps in....even when I know I haven't. I don't feel like explaining. I don't want to explain to anyone who uses a judgemental tone like that because some alarm goes off inside me that says: "This person isn't looking for the truth. They just believe what they hear." I guess I truly can't be bothered and I feel like it's an invasion to have to.
I hear their judgement loud and clear but it doesn't stop the guilt. Maybe I need a new microchip for my guilt button??
“DAD……….. GET OUT OF MY HEAD/FACE/SPACE WHATEVER!!!!”
Ya know.......this is helping me. Thankyou.
"Stupid judgemental non-fact-seeking silly nurse..........GET OUT OF MY HEAD/FACE/SPACE WHATEVER!!!"
Hey H&H! It's only a microchip but it carries a powerful message. If I can only remember to think.......this type of thing.........first.........I bet my guilt button won't go off so easily.
Maybe you will never say this loud and clear to him....but you can always think it!
:D Sela
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(((((((((H&H))))))))) I just read your reply above and don’t have time to say much now. Probably back here next week. But gosh. I do feel for you. And I get the feeling maybe you can’t yet feel for you, you the 6 year-old witnessing/suffering what must have been a horrific event. You the child being treated like an object, like an inconvenience. Those arguments on the doorstep – how old were you then? Did you feel as though you were the cause? Guilty/uncomfortable? I have to withdraw a bit because it does remind me of me and that can cloud my reading. I understand about the hugs too. Icky icky feelings.
You’re okay H&H. I think one day you’ll get your dad out of your head. And that’s where it counts. You have a fantastic flexible great big brain in there! :D It can do it. Have more to say but sorry not now.
Have good weekends all :D
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(((((Sela))))) ((((((Portia)))))
Sela.... another good thing is sometimes the phrase "Talk to the hand coz the face ain't listening no more" :D Hon, why should you have to explain yourself and your situation to strangers. It's none of their business and if they don't understand, sod em. They don't matter. What matters is that your friends believe you, are there for you! That you have people who understand (which you do on here). Maybe it's time for you to answer a question (if you want to that is)... What have you got to feel guilty for? What have you got to feel ashamed for?
Portia... I look forward to hearing everything you have to say. I think you may possibly be right about me not feeling for me. A lot of the time it's like it's happened to someone else. Re: the arguments... they were probably about once a month, I'm not sure. Mum & Stepdad would just shut the door in his face in the end. I didn't actually witness the arguments and me and my brother were sent into another room, but you still hear, don't you? I remember several between possibly the ages of 5-10, then around age 10/11 I cut contact with my bio dad when he got his new girlfriend. Yes, I did feel I was the cause... if I wasn't there, if I didn't exist then they wouldn't be arguing and I definitely felt uncomfortable.
Hope you have a lovely weekend all. xx
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Hi all:
H&H, here are my answers, 'cause I feel like it ( :D ) and 'cause you bothered to ask, thanks.
... why should you have to explain yourself and your situation to strangers.
I don't have to and I don't do it, usually.
It's none of their business and if they don't understand, sod em.
I agree......and I might actually remember to think that too sometimes.
They don't matter. What matters is that your friends believe you, are there for you!
Yes. That matters. And I know who my friends are too (I think :?).
That you have people who understand (which you do on here).
And that helps a lot. Thankyou all who understand and who try to and who share so much.
What have you got to feel guilty for?
As I said, I don't have anything to feel guilty for really but.....when a person, like a nurse calling me on the phone.....uses a derogatory tone like that and implies I've done wrong.....I don't always react the way I'd like to. It's like some visceral part of me responds.....and probably as I suspect you might have already guessed....
maybe it's a learned behaviour? ( :shock: :idea:) Now where would I learn a response like that? Jeepers. :roll:
What have you got to feel ashamed for?
I've done my share of wrong in life but generally speaking...I don't feel an overwhelming amount of guilt or shame over anything. But I do react......as iffffffffffff.......I have done something wrong....sometimes.....when people push the right button. :? :oops: (hey! That in itself is embarassing! Yep. I react in a way I don't want to. I don't like that. I need retraining!!!)
Not always. Just sometimes. It shocks me. I end up confused...asking myself:
"Now why did I react like that?"
Yep..I think I need a new microchip.......but where do they sell those????
HELP!!! :shock:
I don't THINK I have reasons to feel guilt.........I don't carry a big basket of guilt (as far as I am aware)....but I sometimes react, in my gut, by feeling guilty when I haven't done a darn thing wrong.
In that case....I might blush or turn red......I might look down......I might seeeeeeem guilty.
Probably need to get on a couch someplace, stare at the ceiling and dig, shovel...deep deep down......waaaaaaaaay down and back, in the past....to figger out what started all of that.
It's not like it happens that often. I guess discussing this with you just reminded me of it and now I'm wondering again.....like I do after the fact?? Excercising my brain cells eh? :mrgreen:
Maybe I'm the only one who does that (react in a way I don't want to sometimes)? Maybe not?
I did feel I was the cause... if I wasn't there, if I didn't exist then they wouldn't be arguing and I definitely felt uncomfortable.
Ahhhhhh! But that's not true!! (it's your belief but it's a debilitating, untrue one, imo). If you weren't there.....they'd still be arguing because they married the wrong person and that's what they did.....that's why the marriage ended......that's the way they deal with problems....they argue. And if it weren't you.....they were arguing about.....it would be about someone else or something else. And if ......it weren't eachother they were arguing with......it would be with someone else. Because those kinds of argumenters feeeeeeeeed off arguing....and I betttttt.....at least one of them....is or would still be.... busy arguing with some other poor sucker about some small person or thing some place.....right now....if the opportunity presented itself.
Not your fault. Not your fault at all ((((H&H)))).
Sela
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Hiya :D
A lot of the time it's like it's happened to someone else.
Yup. Is this called splitting? When we can’t process what’s happening to us so we split off the bad stuff, we don’t feel the associated *emotion*. Numbing out. Zoning out. Instead of feeling angry and sad at the way we are treated as kids, we split it off (because we believe our being angry and sad are unacceptable emotions to our care-givers and therefore we have to deny them).
This is pretty heavy stuff at this link, but it does talk about splitting (and projection of the bad stuff on to other people). I haven’t read it all yet but it looks like solid information (as opposed to airy-fairy meeting-some-drug-company’s-profit-targets type ‘information’). http://primal-page.com/spliting.htm
Gotta go and buy food before the roads freeze over. Looking forward to talking more H&H.
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Simply put he believes it is his way or the highway, he won't accept anything that you have to say about this and won't accept you may have a valid as well as reasonable perspective. No matter what happens it appears that he will continue to try and play on your guilt / emotions to get his way. His comments are just masking his true intentions which is to dominate and dictate the terms of your relationship with him. It is traumatic but remember that if you relent and agree to his terms he will try to enforce them.
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Hiya all....
Gosh, it so blooming cold and frosty here!
Sela... it's good that you know you have nothing to feel guilty or ashamed for. I am really glad to hear it. I feel that we all sometimes don't react the way we'd like to and I think we all analyse the way we reacted sometimes and wonder why.
Regarding the arguments, they were divorced Sela.... if it wasn't for me, they wouldn't have to deal with each other at all. It would have been any other relationship where children aren't involved and they would have gone their separate ways, never to see each other again.
Portia... I have been thinking back a bit... I was older than 6 when the fire happened because we'd already moved house and I was 8 when we moved, so I must have been about 8/9. I remember feeling very small next to dad and his friend when we were looking out of the window, across the road at the burnt out house.
I've heard of the term "splitting" but have never read up about it, so thanks for sending the link and I'll go and have a read.
J_stice... you are right, it is his way or the highway. What hurts is that I know he's sitting there blaming me and holding a grudge however there is very little I can do about that.
Thank you again for taking time to reply, but I'm very tired at the moment... look forward to hearing your responses and hope you're all having a good weekend.
H&H xx
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Actually it is exactly the opposite, there is a lot you can do about it. Arm yourself with the knowledge that this is the way he operates and make the decision to accept him as he is or not. I had an experience with my aunt who always used to nag me about a certain way I did things. She found it difficult to accept that there could be anyother way of dealing with people.
She was totally accepting of the behaviour of others and refused to respond if someone wronged her (she had someone have a car accident with her totally ruining her car whilst speeding and a provisional driver and because of her personality she was tempted to accept responsibility for the accident and acknowledge that the report to the police and the insurance company could have been libelous (something that a lawyer confirmed it wasn't). So she fought the court action and won. The point of this story was to say empower yourself with the right information and knowledge. Get the right people around you and trust your instinct You know what to do!
One more thing Healing&Hopeful I will keep you in my thoughts and well wishes and please feel free to contact me because listening to the way you have survived inspires me to continue!!!!!!!
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However when I think about not reading, I feel quite scared.
Hi H&H,
I really understand about this fear. You have devoted so much and so long to this struggle with your pop, that you know at some level you'll have a lot of free energy to cope with after you let go. It's scary. Who will you be, if not defined by him or his fight with you? What will you do? Will you have to form relationships with normal people? Will that work out? Is there a big stack of stuff you were going to do when you got him all sorted? What are you going to have to face?
No great advice here, just that I understand.
Plucky
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Hi Sela,
that nurse was wrong to believe your dad, but face it, he's convincing and on his deathbed, why should he lie? (You know why, I know why, we all know why, but not her.) I bet what he really was feeling was, shame for having treated you and your siblings so badly. He didn't want to face you too, when going also to face his maker. Of course he had to blame it on you lot.
Plucky
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Hiya all
Thanks for the replies... it's his birthday today and I'm feeling a bit flat. I've not got in touch or sent him a card or anything but it's tough and I'm still feeling very tired.
Take care all
H&H xx
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Hey Healing&Hopeful,
First thing don't bother yourself about his birthday, is there any reason that you should have? If you did what would have happened another call, e-mail or contact with him thanking you for the card then what? Back to the old scenario of his diatribe. I am sorry to be so blunt, but the fact your feeling flat could be because of the situation or something else. Don't worry the feeling will pass but do things to try to cheer you up exercise, cook or do something creative that you love.
If you really feel that you want to send him a card or contact him, do so that he won't feel the need to reciprocate and contact you if your still struggling with the situation. Just try to remember that taking each step one at a time and each day as it comes and everything will eventually be easier.
Its obvious from your nick that you have a positive attitude and outlook just don't lose sight of what you want.
(Jeez I feel lame writing this since most of it you already know!!!)
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Hi H&H,
what did he give you on your birthday?
Plucky
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Hi H&H,
what did he give you on your birthday?
Plucky
Hiya Plucky
He got me a card "To a loving daughter" this year. This was after a couple of months of not speaking, so I thanked him for the card. Normally he forgets my birthday which was why I thanked him. He doesn't see the harm in sending cards but I said no contact means no cards either and he hasn't sent another one since.
H&H xx
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Why am I getting the feeling this guy is a master guilt trip inducer???
...if it wasn't for me, they wouldn't have to deal with each other at all. It would have been any other relationship where children aren't involved and they would have gone their separate ways, never to see each other again.
I'm sorry to keep coming back to this point but I just don't think YOU deserve the blame for this. If it wasn't for THEM being messed up adults........they might have been intelligent enough and concerned enough about YOU to NOT deal with eachother in such a way infront of you.
If it wasn't for THEM getting together and having a child together.......THEY would have been doing the same thing elsewhere, causing the same guilty feelings in some other poor kid, with some other mate (betcha).
Because if THEY were mature, healthy, caring, adult parents.....THEY would have made SURE that YOU didn't carry ANY guilt on account of THEIR behaviour. But THEY didnt' do that. And now....even as an adult yourself......it seems you think somehow that YOU were responsible for ANYTHING.
You weren't. You were just a kid. THEY CHOSE how to communicate with eachother in front of you. So they may have gone their separate ways, if you weren't around. So! You WERE around. And that wasn't your doing. THEY could have been pleasant and reasonable......around YOU at least.....to spare YOU any further upset......because YOU were the little person who was NOT responsible.
((((((((((((((((((((((((((((H&H))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
I hope I'm not driving you nuts with this point. It just seems important. Like you've carried this responsibility since you were so little. And now......as if you STILL feel like you OWE something.......for YOUR part or something?
YOUR only part was being a child and needing loving parents. You didn't start the problem and you certainly were not the problem. You did not carry the problem on. You were a little girl.
Would you wish this kind of guilt on your own kids....in such a case? Would it be their fault the way YOU behave with whatever EX you have? If it weren't for them.....you'd be off happily living your life some place, without conflict???? Would you agree that they should feel guilty for simply existing....for being around......or if they felt guilty or responsible like this....would you accept that? Would you want your child to believe HE/SHE was the cause of any arguments? What might you say to your child?
He got me a card "To a loving daughter" this year.
Not........to the daughter I love. I love you daughter. Happy Birthday to the beautiful daughter God blessed me with that I love with all of my heart!
To a daughter who loves me. Gives me love. My supply!
(Sorry H&H. It's just that it looks like you're feeling guilty for not sending him a card or acknowledging his birthday? And that doesn't seem fair because they don't make cards that read:
"To an N Dad").
:shock: :D
Maybe it's part of grieving......that feeling flat on his birthday. Grieving for the day that should be a happy one for you. A flat feeling for not having a dad that you feel glad and happy and comfortable celebrating with. Grieving for the little girl who feels responsible for somehow causing that? Like there's something wrong with you? To make your dad act that way? No H&H. It's not you. It was never you.
Or feeling flat for wanting to send a card......and not wanting to. It's confusing maybe? Empty?
((((((((((H&H)))))))))))
I think you are doing a marvelous job of not engaging with him.....considering all. I'm glad you're posting here and I'm glad you didn't send a card. Please be kind to you. It's ok to do that.
:D Sela
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Hi Plucky:
that nurse was wrong to believe your dad, but face it, he's convincing and on his deathbed, why should he lie? (You know why, I know why, we all know why, but not her.)
Oh yes. I agree. He was convincing....so convincing...always. That's how I knew he wasn't out of it......mentally....on his deathbed. He was quick as a whip. Still whipping. With words. All cylinders were firing.
I bet what he really was feeling was, shame for having treated you and your siblings so badly. He didn't want to face you too, when going also to face his maker. Of course he had to blame it on you lot.
Anything is possible but I doubt this. He never seemed to have a conscience..unless he grew one somehow right before he died? I doubt it was shame driving him. More likely.......his desire to keep his lies from being detected.
That nurse came to his funeral. She went on about what a nice, sweet old man he was. How much he loved his wife (my mother). How he talked and talked about how she was as beautiful as a movie star!!
He was cruel and violent and abusive to my mother for 44 years. He called her every name in the book but beautiful wasn't one of them. Imagine his adult children visiting him and the nurse mentioning this stuff??
No words were necessary to convey my reaction to her information at that funeral. I'm sure my look....alone......was enough to let the nurse know that he had duped her. Poor nurse.
In one way he managed to hurt me one last time before he died but in another.....he did me a favour. If I had visited he probably would have said many and more mean things. He probably would have rejected me, embarassed me, belittled me, insulted me, lied about me to whoever was present and probably caused me a lot more pain than one sentence from nurse on the phone ever could. So really, I feel lucky and grateful to that nurse for telling me....for asking him.
And I don't feel much other than pity for him because you're right.....he was on his way to meet his maker.
Poor him.
Sela
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Hiya Plucky
He got me a card "To a loving daughter" this year. This was after a couple of months of not speaking, so I thanked him for the card. Normally he forgets my birthday which was why I thanked him. He doesn't see the harm in sending cards but I said no contact means no cards either and he hasn't sent another one since.
H&H xx
So, normally he doesn't send any card - in fact he 'forgets' your birthday. (My father did the same, or said as much, but now that I have children, I know that you cannot really forget your child's birthday.) Only when you wanted no contact, does he send a card that ironically says, "to a loving daughter". Adn he 'didn't see the harm' in it? How about violating your wishes?
What an Nmeister.
Plucky
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I doubt it was shame driving him. More likely.......his desire to keep his lies from being detected.
Yes....what was I thinking? Shame is only for the victims of Ns!
Plucky
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Hey poor weary (((((((((((H & H)))))))):
His card made me think about this. What a hook is in that simple card-treacle. I think (this may sound dumb)--it's the word DAUGHTER.
Almost like, you're stopped in your tracks, poleaxed with misery, because this messed-up man just nailed you with your bio-label.
Yah, sure, that's one fact about your existence.
But how wonderful it might be if you woke up embracing H&H with the same kindness you embrace others (who are not hurting you the way he is)...and...looking in the mirror, go,
there's H&H!
What a good person she is! Hmm, look at all the different things she is, and then start rattlign off a big list to yourself of all the good positive affirming things you are that are NOT "daughter."
Then if you want you can tack that one on the end of the list. But you know, it really doesn't belong at the top. You are a LOT of good labels my dear, and I think you're stuck on that one.
Hugs,
Hopalong
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Hiya all
I hope you are all well?
((((((Portia)))))... I did read the link, thank you for posting it. I'm not sure about the splitting, mainly because I do feel angry and sad about the situation, about parts of my childhood and I am probably relating to it more now than I ever have done.
((((((Sela))))).... I do think you have a point. Most of the stuff I remember about my bio dad is between the ages of 8-10 so I'm guessing that I was somewhere around this age when this happened. I've only just remembered it. He went to the bottom drawer of his dresser in the front room and pulled out a framed photo. It was his and Mum's wedding photo. I can't remember why he showed me it but I remember him saying "And you were just thought of when this photo was taken". I'm really not sure if it's this comment, but for years I thought they got married because Mum was pregnant with me. It turned out that she was 3 months pregnant when they got married. When I was 17 I said to Mum something along the lines of "You were pregnant when you got married the first time" and she turned to me and said "I could slap you for that comment". I remember realing in surprise because I didn't understand, and in alot of respects, still don't. She said they would have got married anyway, but deep down I do believe that they only got married because of me, because she was pregnant. Mum said that at the time bio dad had said you can't get pregnant the first time.
What might I say if it were my child? I really don't know. One thing it did was make me totally determined that I wasn't going to end up the same way. I'm amazed I've got married as I was adamant I never wanted to get married. Even when I first met my husband. And would you know, I actually asked him to marry me!!! After we'd been together 3 years and because of the kind of guy he is, I felt sure. Of course he's not perfect, no one is, but he is gorgeous, very kind, will help anyone and he didn't judge my family which previous boyfriends have. He's not confrontational and it's very rare we argue. Sometimes I have no idea what he's doing with me, but I am very glad he is.
(((((((Plucky)))))... I think with the card situation, he was quite happy to have no contact. He said to me that lots of parents have no contact with their children, it's more common than you think. So if it's so common for parents to have no contact with their kids, why send cards? Why make a phony show that you care when you clearly don't? Because that's how I see it.... just a phony show.
(((((((Hoppy))))).... Good point... he always says "She's MY daughter" and he uses the word daughter a lot. There is another part to divorced parents that I notice more now than ever before. Even when you have a stepdad, even when they've been in your life for years, you are always still your Mum's daughter. Other family members "and over their is J's daughter and their son N". "This is J's daughter". I notice it with my BIL as well... he's a stepdad to two now grown up children. "These are my wife's grandchild" I say to him, they may be your wife's by blood, but you married your wife and they are part of the package.
Take our wedding... when we were preparing it my MIL asked if I needed to invite his wife's children and grandchildren. I replied that they were my BIL's stepchildren and she realised what she'd said. An innocent comment but it really struck a cord with me.
I do not think people realise the physchological aspect this has on children. I mean, pretty much everyone does it so when I say that a family is not necessarily blood related, it's balls really. Because people automatically introduce as blood related.
Take care all
H&H xx
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Dear H&H :D
Sometimes I have no idea what he's doing with me, but I am very glad he is. I’d guess it’s because you’re a kind, empathic, loving, real, intelligent person. That’s enough for starters. Are you embarrassed yet? :DHey can you cook too? 8)
I’m gonna jump in on a couple of things that struck me:
He said to me that lots of parents have no contact with their children, it's more common than you think. Hahahaha! Sheeeesh. *sigh* He’s excusing the fact that your relationship is non-existent by saying ‘everyone does it’. That’s really quite sad and pathetic. :(He has no idea of what a real relationship might look like but he knows, intellectually, that this is a real *humiliation* (note that emotion) so he has to make some excuse to tell himself – not you – to tell himself that he’s really an okay kinda guy. "It’s nothing to be worried about. Everyone does it." Yeahhhh sure. Pass the blindfold. It’s nothing to do with you H&H; it’s all about his self-image, building it up, lest the narcissistic shame comes flooding him. Because if it does….there’s nothing left to hold it together. :?
So if it's so common for parents to have no contact with their kids, why send cards? Why make a phony show that you care when you clearly don't? Because that's how I see it.... just a phony show.
Again, it’s not about you is it? It’s about how he sees himself. He might have decided that although you don’t want contact, heck, he has an image of a good father and he’s going to make that image work for him. Not you. It has absolutely nothing to do with you, the real you. It’s all about the ‘you’ that is part of him, part of the picture he has of himself.
he always says "She's MY daughter" and he uses the word daughter a lot.
That’s an ownership statement. My daughter, my object. Not a real, living, breathing person with her own brain, oh no, MY daughter – an extension of me, a reflection of me. Sorry H&H. :(
When he fights with you, he fights with what’s in his head (probably his mother): he does not see or HEAR the real you. And that won’t change.
The only thing that will change is your reaction to him. One day it won’t matter to you what he says about you, to you. All you’ll see will be his hurt, his sad life and you’ll think maybe it’s cruel to carry on fighting someone so weak.
But not yet eh? There’s lots more anger and resentment and hurt in there I would guess. Oh, hang on, maybe that’s meee :o…..gotta go again. take care. You're okay :D
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Pee Ess:
It was his and Mum's wedding photo. I can't remember why he showed me it but I remember him saying "And you were just thought of when this photo was taken".
I’ve been there too. A wedding album in fact. Icky icky. Why did he show it to you? Why do you think?
Was it because you’d be interested? Was he interested in your reaction? Did he ask your opinion of the wedding dress, the other stuff? Did he heck.
He was offloading his emotional crap on to you. A child. He wanted sympathy and love from you. Just like the hugs. Use is abuse. :xUSE IS ABUSE. :x
When did anyone hug you when you needed or wanted it? When did anyone ask you what you wanted to talk about? When did anyone notice your needs? When did anyone respect your opinion, your questions?
The photo incident is manipulative, like so much in his relationship with you.
Ahhhh heck. This is me again! Maybe it’s you too eh? bye for now
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Oh Wow (((((((Portia))))))) hon.... You're ok too... I read what you posted and you could see the light bulb ping on above my head! Of course... and there was me thinking I had a part to play, what a silly billy I am (joke btw). Because then he could tell his mates, well although my daughter doesn't speak to me, I still send cards.... meaning, I still do my bit and I'm a good dad.
I am starting to remember stuff.... I remember him taking me to the park a couple of times. I used to play while he stood at the edge, I remember that because he was into CB radio, he used to encourage me to talk to his mates on the CB and I had my own handle Daisy May. I remember that he used to buy me sweets, and I remember one time when he wanted to take a video of me driving his car along this field. It was downhill and I couldn't reach the pedals. I remember being quite scared and I didn't want to do it, but looking back he did basically push me into doing this. About 6 years ago now I went round to look after the dog with a couple of friends and he got this video out, starts when I was about 1 and finishes when I'm about 9 I think, all set to music and stuff that he did. He only got it out, not to embarrass me because it wasn't about me, it was about his videoing skills and the fact that he'd put it all to music. Even on the video I look scared out of my brains in the car!
I remember once as well not wanting to go one Saturday... I was screaming and crying because I didn't want to go, saying his house was horrible and his car smelt. I don't really know what triggered this off but Mum and him were talking me round and I went. I remember him saying "There we go, that was ok, wasn't it?" during part of the day... and "You do enjoy coming to see me, don't you?".
Just out of curiosity.... what do other parents say when they are talking about their children? I thought the my daughter bit was because my parents have divorced and am just curious really.
H&H xx
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Hi there H&H,
I assume you meant healthy families when you wondered how people talk about their children. Can't help you there. My father used to refer to me as his Daughter and it always sounded like the word was in italics and had a smirk behind it. In fact, I was usually the Other Daughter. Not the Daughter.
Plucky
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Wow. Portia. I am so impressed. I can't wait to hand you one of my stuck scripts sometime.
(((HHHHHH&HHHHHHHHHHH)))))
I wasn't writing about what "Daughter" means to HIM. Or why HE uses it, or abuses it, or puffs his empty self up with it.
I was writing about YOU. How the word hooks YOU. Stops YOU. Freezes YOU in in the mirror so you can no longer clearly see your beautiful self because you're looking in there and seeing..."DAUGHTER". It's not a bad word! It's just that I think it's a word that, right now hon, you are hurting yourself with. I think you are using that word to whack yourself, slap yourself, say mean things to yourself, pinch yourself every time you relax, and just bang on your bruises.
I think it's a word YOU need to unhook YOURSELF from. It seem right at the TOP of your list of the words you might call yourself. Really. A list. Like...list the things about H&H...the good lovely valuable wonderful things, that aren't about any external approval and especially not his...I'd just love to read a list like that, that's all about YOU.
Love, lots,
Hopalong
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(((((((((Plucky))))))))) I was never the other daughter for the sole reason I was the only daughter. You're definitely a very special person in your own right.
Ok ((((((Hoppy))))) honey.... here goes, an honest list of good things about me...
Actually this is quite difficult because I immediately think of bad things, big nose, lazy, quite selfish, bad daughter etc etc...
Think good things girl!!!
Actually I didn't realise how difficult this would be... I'm not very good at pointing out my good things because I think that makes me arrogant and selfish.... hmmmmm.
Generally I'm kind and helpful as I don't see the point of not being. I feel it makes my life and others more disruptive by not being, plus helping others does help me to feel good about myself.
I have a sense of humour (I think!), but I'm not really funny.
I love laughing, and I love hearing my husband laugh. There are times when I'm in another part of the house and I can hear him laughing really heartily to something on the TV... I always smile then. Actually I love hearing most people laugh.
Errmmmm, I don't know.
Oh poo... that was pants, wasn't it?
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Hopalong, your list of good stuff is great. Can you take the good stuff and root it all out? It sure needs rooting out. Deal? I’ll do some of the icky:
Actually this is quite difficult because I immediately think of bad things, big nose, lazy, quite selfish, bad daughter etc etc...
H&H Holy Moly! :shock: Having a big nose is a bad thing? Yikes!!!!! I’m a bad person! I’m doomed! I have a HUGE one! true. hahahaha! :D
Lazy eh? Hmmmm. Hmm. Who says? It’s a bit relative. I’m not working the fields 18 hours a day. I’m not eating chocolates and watching TV all day either. Lazy is an interesting word. I spend most of my time thinking (like now). Some people would call that lazy. To me it’s my reason for being. Thinking is a luxury I can afford! I like the sound of that. I can’t afford lots of ‘stuff’ and ‘things’. Lazy. What does it mean to you H&H?
Quite selfish. Okay I’m on the floor now, typing with my toes. I fell off my chair in shock. Selfish? Selfish is always doing and saying what you want to do and say without any thought or consideration for any other person. You qualify? I think not. Who thinks you're selfish?
Bad daughter. BAD DAUGHTER! :x :x
Where’s that thread, ‘the most N comments ever’? How about this one I remember:
“If you’d have been better children, we would have been better parents!” True. True story.
There is no such thing as a bad daughter. Or a bad child. Or a bad son. You bad child! You spoilt my life by being born!
How are you a bad daughter H&H? Really, in your head. You’re not bad, but it doesn’t matter what I think. It matters what you think.
BTW I haven’t mentioned your Father setting you up on dates with his mates when you were 17 (have I got that right?). That’s sitting very uncomfortably in my head. How old were his mates? What were they like? Did you ever date any of them? Yes I want to know although I have my fingers slightly covering my eyes. I think it’s important. Maybe!
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I really should get on with stuff but ….I have to respond!
I am starting to remember stuff
really? Truly? New stuff? (I’m excited! Honestly, this is great.)
.... I remember him taking me to the park a couple of times. I used to play while he stood at the edge, I remember that because he was into CB radio, he used to encourage me to talk to his mates on the CB and I had my own handle Daisy May.
Showing you off huh? His little performer.
I remember that he used to buy me sweets, and I remember one time when he wanted to take a video of me driving his car along this field. It was downhill and I couldn't reach the pedals. I remember being quite scared and I didn't want to do it, but looking back he did basically push me into doing this.
Yep. He did. He really wanted to meet your needs didn’t he? :xNOT. Did he take you to the circus, to the park on the swings, to the cinema to see Disney films, to eat ice-cream? Etc etc. All the normal stuff. Use is abuse. Scaring your child isn’t necessary. And it ain’t nice.
About 6 years ago now I went round to look after the dog with a couple of friends and he got this video out, starts when I was about 1 and finishes when I'm about 9 I think, all set to music and stuff that he did. He only got it out, not to embarrass me because it wasn't about me, it was about his videoing skills and the fact that he'd put it all to music. Even on the video I look scared out of my brains in the car!
Has he given you a copy of this video? Or is your precious early life only his to own? He makes me want to vomit. Bleurghhhhhhhhhhhhh….that’s better.
I remember once as well not wanting to go one Saturday... I was screaming and crying because I didn't want to go, saying his house was horrible and his car smelt. I don't really know what triggered this off
How about it was the fact that his house was horrible and his car smelt? :DThose sound like good reasons to scream and cry. Or how about the fact that when he sees you he scares you half to death? That he uses you for his entertainment? That he makes young (how old?) Daisy May talk to his mates? Is that fun for a young girl? Is that appropriate???????
but Mum and him were talking me round and I went. I remember him saying "There we go, that was ok, wasn't it?" during part of the day... and "You do enjoy coming to see me, don't you?".
It’s so sad. But the manipulation levels are so high, the guilt-tripping you! :x This guy is an emotional 6 year old.
Okay, I better go. I haven’t showered. I smell. :shock: :? :DBack again another day.
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Hiya (((((((((((Portia)))))))))) hon... I meant negative things, not bad.... more I think of negative things before positive things.
I don't think I've got a bad nose... it just sounds bizarre, doesn't it?!!! I don't like my nose or my eyes though.... however these are the bits which I've inherited from my parents which is possibly why I don't like those parts of my face. My husband will say to me gorgeous sexy wife, and I'll reply silly blind man.... however he also says silly blind girl when I say gorgeous sexy husband :o) Being a newly married I do love the sound of saying "my husband"... do you think that could be the same as the "my daughter"?
I think I'm lazy because like now, when I should be working, I'm not. I think I'm lazy because our house isn't clean and tidy... you know those kind of things. It's probably all in my head.... no one actually says I'm lazy, I just feel it. I feel kind of paranoid as well because I always think everyone can see through me.... can see that I'm not working when I should be, come round and see the house and think I'm not a good wife. Do you know what I mean at all? Maybe I should be looking out for the men in white coats!!!!!
The bad daughter bit stems from being the black sheep of the family... the one that doesn't conform to what the rest of the family want me to be. The one who smokes and drinks alcohol, the one who doesn't sit in front of the TV or have sky TV, the one who goes abroad on holidays... the one who is basically nothing like the rest of her family. This is why I do think it's me a lot of the time. There's my bio dad, my stepdad, mum and half brother... the first is weird, the others conform and then there's me... how can I not think I'm the one with the problem? Apart from bio dad the other 3 are the same.... you see I feel selfish for not being like them. I guess I feel selfish for being my own person!!!! Although it was traumatic at 17 and I remember what a scared child I felt in the bedsit that first night, I also know that this is the bit that possibly saved me, that allowed me to turn into the person I am today. It forced me to gain control, to direct my life and mainly to become my own person.
On the whole I'm quite happy with the person I've become, although I don't shout about it... I do help people, I am kind to people and animals and I know that I am a good person. I just feel uncomfortable saying good stuff about myself, probably because I think they're just words. My bio dad says he's a good person, will help anyone etc and he will, but he always expects something in return. I do take criticisms personally though, more personally that most I've noticed.
Yes, you read that right Portia *sigh*... he did try and set me up with his mates... they were in their 30's. I went out for a drink with one, basically to shut dad up but that was it. It's shocking isn't it? He thought that because he had his girlfriend who was much younger than him, then obviously I should be the same and what better man to choose someone for you than your dad.... And then he'd go on about how bad I'd be if I got pregnant. When I think back it's really sick. Thank god he didn't have any sick mates otherwise I may have been telling a very different story!
No I don't have a copy of the video and I was about 8 with the CB radio... The screaming and crying day... looking back if it were my child, I hope I would have took to the time to find out why she was screaming and crying, why she was so distressed. I hope I would have sent the day home for the day without her so I could sit down and find out why.
Fun... well I didn't really have much fun... not with any of them. I can't remember any of them playing with me, and then when my brother was born I was expected to play with him. With bio dad it was his needs and with my brother it was his needs. My main enjoyment of my childhood was when we used to go to the club when I was about 14/15... there was a park and we could play outside. Although I was still supervising my brother, I do remember enjoying it.
I remember other little bits as well.... I remember when I was 7 (and I know I was 7 because my brother had been born but we were still in our old house), I was showing my brother an Etch a Sketch... as I picked it up to leave, it slipped and landed on his head. He was only a baby. Mum was worried I'd brain damaged him, and then my stepdad's parents came round... I remember sobbing and was curled up in a ball in the kitchen. I was so frightened.
I'm sure you're showered and smelling sweet again now ((((Portia))))
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H & H--
WE SEE YOU! WE SEE RIGHT STRAIGHT THROUGH YOU!
Yepper. And there it all is:
a good, decent, just-fine-enough sweet human being
flaws and all
huge honker nose, really, you should have to pay an extra tax for that
sweet beating heart
very fine mind that's getting clearer all the time
something of a preoccupation with guilt that she's getting sick of...
Yep, all there. Transparent as glass. Dust bunnies under the bed and likely the dishes aren't washed either.
But for some odd reason, her hubby's so happy he laughs in a room all by himself.
Hmmm. What's right with this picture?
EVERYTHING!
(You definitely gotta practice your what's-good-about-me lists more. In the mirror. Until you actually believe it.)
You're not lying, you know.
Hugs,
Hopalong
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((((((Hoppy))))) I find it really scary that you can see through me... seriously, your comment made me feel so afraid, but what you see and what I think people see are two different things I think?
Plus last night I was consumed by guilt... it wrapped itself around me and I felt like I was inside this huge ball of guilt. Scary stuff. Has anyone else felt like this?
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Oh hon, I'm so sorry.
I'm a writer...wacky poet type...and sometimes I don't realize that language, especially in capital letters...can spook people if I overdo the drama. It's an imaginative exercise, seeing you, that's all. I know I can't really. And I don't want to invade your head that much.
I meant to be funny but it must've come out creepy and invasive. I'm soooo sorry if I kind of peeled you open, there. I really didn't intend to do that.
It was a weird exercise in trying to inspire you to laugh at yourself and love yourself.
And it backfired. I was too pushy and invasive (N spot!).
I am terribly sorry. I should know, since I have anxiety disorder, how the wrong words, delivered in the wrong tone, can flip somebody into a panic attack, and I'm terribly sorry I contributed to that.
I just would SO hate to harm you.
Please, forgive me.
I'm so sorry you had a rough night, and sorrier that I helped trigger it.
(I really do "see" only a very dear and very good human being. And that's all I meant to say.)
Maybe the guilt-wave is just a whole bunch of dreck, inner resistance to the actual possibility of loving yourself in a real way. Maybe when you tried out the fantasy of doing that, the big ball of toxic guilt you've been choking on just had to try one more time...
It is powerful. I cant' explain it but I do have such faith in you, that with some practice, some kinder thoughts about yourself, you can shrink it down to a size you can eventually bounce away from you. See it shrink and so forth...
But there I go directing imaginative exercises again and I'm sorry. I presume too much.
Please feel better.
Let me know how you are, and please accept my apology for pushing too hard.
Gently,
Hopalong
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(((((((((((Hoppy hoppy hoppy hon)))))))))))))))) Honey, please don't feel bad and don't apologise and you haven't harmed me, you could never harm anyone Hoppy (btw, do you mind me calling you Hoppy?).... you have done nothing wrong and in a round about way your comment has helped more than you know. I always appreciate your replies.
I know that you can't "see" me.... but because of the image I have of myself, I assume others have the same image.... do you know what I mean? So when I read that you can see through me, my first thoughts was (sorry in advance for swearing), sh*te, bugger etc... she can see that I'm just pretending to be nice. Because that is how I feel, I'm not really nice and caring but deep down I think I'm horrible and selfish for the reasons in the posts above, so therefore I feel I play at being nice, I play at being caring and friendly. Gosh, I have never been this honest in my life and I've never even shared this with myself before now! Your comment has actually helped me to realise this.
I did wonder if the guilt was actually coming out from me.... that it was a way of getting rid of it?
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Wow! Thank you ((((H & H)))))!
Sure, you can call me Hoppy.
Heck, call me Happy!
I'm so glad it turns out to be insight instead of harm.
You are making so much sense.
I said you were dear and sweet and good, you know.
Didn't say you were PERfect..
:P
Sometimes we DO have to pretend to be nice.
Sometimes underneath guilt is a whole bunch of scary anger!
But underneath that is the original dear sweet good self, that's all.
I think you're so brave. SOOOO brave.
Just unpeeling like an onion and growing in such significant, healing ways.
You make ME feel healing and hopeful.
Thanks, again, for all the inspiration you are.
Love,
Hopalong
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Yay. H&H some questions for you to mull if you wish. Ponder! Are babies born innocent? Are babies born selfish, unkind, controlling? What’s wrong with being selfish sometimes? Self-ish, thinking about yourself, what’s wrong with it? Is anyone else going to do it for you?
Sometimes I love being selfish. True! Some of us have to learn to be healthily selfish. Look after ourselves. Not allow others to use us, trample over our wants. Being selfish can simply be asking for what you want. There is nothing bad about asking for what you want! And if you don’t ask…..people don’t know.
Guilt is *just* a feeling.
Anger is *just* a feeling.
Feelings can change. Like thinking can change.
A whole person is so much more than a bunch of feelings.
Hoppy: whaddya think? Is massive guilt what we have before we get angry enough to shove that guilt where it belongs? When we find that anger, and realise it was Never Our Fault – that’s when the guilt starts to lift? And we can get soooo angry. About being made to feel guilty!
I get a fancy to say something in capitals….Hoppy I love your EXUBERANCE!
Bye for now....
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I would have to say babies are born innocent. From reading info on this website it says we are born with about 50% of our personality. I found that part really interesting.
I'm not sure about being an inspiration ((((((((((Happy)))))))))))
Yes (((((Portia)))))) it is good to be selfish sometimes, however looking at this now I don't see the point for feeling selfish because I'm not like the rest of my family. It's up to them isn't it? They choose to be that way just the same as I choose to be this way.
However I'm on a course tomorrow, and then off on holiday on Saturday so here goes.... this is my attempt to see good, and only good.... something to take with me for two weeks. I know there are things that I'm not... I know I'm not and never will be really out going or the life and soul of the party, however....
I am:-
Happy
Helpful
Kind
Generous
Friendly
Honest
Lovable (well my husband loves me so I must be)
And I am GOOD... I am not all the things that my parents want and I do not have to keep their guilt, I do not have to accept their responsibility.
And you know what... I feel good... in fact maybe we should have a good thread.
Now.... I'll just watch my head as I try to get out of the door!
My sincere heartfelt thanks to each and every one of you who have replied to this thread... what a bunch of amazing people you are! xx
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Thanks, Mis Portia.
Yeah. I think guilt can be numbed-up anger.
Anger's a tricky dance partner, I'm often scared of it myself...a lot...
but I'm learning it's important to sit down with it sometimes, listen to what it's saying.
Then, I think, one can let it go.
And be happy.
:)
Hopalong
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Thanks, Mis Portia.
Yeah. I think guilt can be numbed-up anger.
Anger's a tricky dance partner, I'm often scared of it myself...a lot...
but I'm learning it's important to sit down with it sometimes, listen to what it's saying.
Then, I think, one can let it go.
And be happy.
:)
Hopalong
((((((((Happy Hoppy))))))))
I think it's normal to be scared of anger. Especially this kind of anger where it can seem to consume us, however letting out this anger is important and how we let it out is important too. I have loads of self help stuff saved on my PC and here is a bit of it about anger... this may help yourself or someone else. Take care hon xx
What is the anger reaction to loss in a dysfunctional family?
· Anger at having to strive so hard and to be so good.
· Anger at living in a family that needs so much and gives back so little.
· Anger at parents for being so critical and irritable when one is trying so hard.
· Anger at self for constantly discounting one's own needs and selling out to other's demands.
· Anger at parents for not caring about me.
· Anger at a troubled person in the family for engaging in a dependency behavior.
· Anger at family members who conspire to belittle and manipulate the troubled person.
Anger at self for causing a problem for self and others.
How is anger often dealt with in a dysfunctional family?
· To maintain a ``good'' son or daughter image one must not show anger toward parents but must bury the feelings (anger in), which feeds guilt and depression.
· Anger leads to feelings of inadequacy that lead to a belief that ``I never do good enough.'' This leads to resentment that leads to more buried feelings, resulting in guilt and depression.
· Intense anger at self and others can become frozen into a chronic attitude of hostility.
· Submerged anger leads to being vigilant for any attacks (real or perceived) on self. This provides a stimulus to draw the anger feelings to the surface, resulting in overreaction ``Your anger in this situation is disproportionate to the importance of the event.''
· Self-hatred leads to turning off feelings, which can lead to projection and blaming others for the problems.
· Anger leads to rage that leads to severe punishing of the troubled person or other family members.
What are some ways to redefine anger?
· Anger is a signal that things are not going our way.
· Anger is a motivator for us to change things or to rectify them.
· Unresolved anger is a block to our emotional growth.
· Anger is a sign that we must take an assertive stance to tune into how we are feeling and why we are feeling that way.
· Anger is directly related to our thoughts. If we have angry thoughts we will become angry. However, if we don't have angry thoughts, we won't become angry.
· Depression is anger that has been suppressed.
· A hostile attitude is often the sign of an individual with chronic, unresolved anger who expresses the anger in passive and/or aggressive ways.
· Aggressive anger, which is verbal or physical, only intensifies one's anger once it begins to be expressed.
· Catharsis of anger, which is the ventilation of anger, usually leads to an increase in anger, and the expression of the anger usually intensifies.
· Anger is usually related to me and my reaction to something or someone. It is controllable by teaching myself new ways to handle the ``anger provoking'' situations, events, or people.
· My angry reaction to a ``current situation'' may be because the situation is a ``trigger event,'' one that drags up ``old'' anger that has never been resolved.
· Anger can be turned into a source of strength to change my ways of acting and reacting to situations, events, or people.
· Ventilating anger directly on people is aggressive behavior and typically benefits no one. I usually feel guilt, shame, or greater anger after such ventilation, and whatever provoked my anger usually doesn't change.
· Harnessing anger into a productive force in my life will assist my emotional growth.
What can I do with anger?
· Face the anger for what it is and don't avoid it.
· Identify the feelings at the root of the anger or depression.
· Use ``I statements'' to express the feelings of anger.
· Identify the guilt, resentment, rage, fear, embarrassment, depression involved in this anger.
· Confront the issues that stimulate the anger. Analyze them for what they are: stimuli drawing on deepseated subconscious feelings of anger that indicate unresolved emotional blocks from my past.
· Use imagery, role playing, an empty chair, or other object to confront past hurts and pains; express the submerged feelings that come out as I deal with this anger.
· Inform people in my current life of my need to analyze my anger responses; seek their assistance and understanding in this exploration process.
· If my current anger is not the result of efforts to uncover submerged feelings of old anger, then treat the current anger with rational ``I'' statements: ``I feel angry because ?''
Anger work-out refers to a healthy and full expression of anger on inanimate objects; not on people so as to rid myself of hostility and aggression aroused by my anger. Each of the following techniques could be used alone or in any combination.
· beating on pillows
· beating on a mattress
· stomping on floor
· beating a bed with tennis or racquetball racket
· beating a rug with a stick
· hitting a weight bag or punching bag
· physical exertion, i.e., playing racquetball, tennis, hand ball, etc.
· yelling in a car with windows closed
· yelling in a paper bag
· ripping up a telephone book or newspapers
· hammering nails in a board
· games in an amusement park that require pounding
· throwing soft objects
· beating a pillow or bed with a foam or plastic bat
· karate or judo practice
· beating drums
· loud yelling
· screaming at a concert or sports event
· screaming in a vacant field or park
· using a shovel to dig holes in the dirt
· hitting balls or stones with a baseball bat
· hitting a ball against a wall with racket or hand
· bowling to hit all the pins down
· writing a letter of anger, but ripping it up the next day - not mailing it
· expressing feelings by writing in a journal
· wringing a wet towel
· using a hammer to smash glass in a bag
· kneading bread or play dough
What are some steps to work out unresolved anger to resolve past issues?
In handling a ``current'' anger situation you may have come upon a ``trigger'' event that brings up past feelings of hurt, pain, resentment, hostility, or anger. The trigger event is not what you are actually reacting to, but rather it is the past situation, (one that went unresolved) to which you are reacting.
The following steps will assist you in working out this unresolved anger:
Step 1. Take a pillow or cushion and go alone to your bedroom or to a quiet location.
Step 2. Position yourself so that you are kneeling in front of the pillow or cushion, which is either on a bed, a chair or the floor.
Step 3. Begin to visualize a scene or series of scenes surrounding the situation, event, or person with which you have unresolved anger.
Step 4. As you are visualizing the scene, begin to pound your pillow and yell out how you ``feel'' about the situation, event, or person. Yell your guts out!
Step 5. Continue pounding the pillow and letting out your feelings until you feel satiated.
Step 6. At this point begin to use your reason and rationality to reframe or restate the situation. Begin to allow yourself to forgive those situations, events, or persons for what happened to you. Do not proceed to the next step until you can come to a ``healing'' of your spirit at this point.
If you are stuck, repeat Steps 3 and 4.
Step 7. Once you feel as if you have been able to forgive and you feel healing beginning, write down what it was that made the reframed or restated situation have less blame and thus be able to be forgiven.
Step 8. If person(s) involved in the unresolved anger situation are still available (alive) and capable of communicating on a healing, non-blaming, feeling level, share your resolution with them and let the forgiveness and healing become alive.
If the person(s) involved are unavailable, let the forgiveness and healing take hold in your heart.
Step 9. If in the future a trigger event brings up this same unresolved anger, repeat Steps one through eight. For some unresolved anger situations, you may need to repeat these steps many, many times.
Steps to improving your Anger Work-Outs
Step 1: In order to improve my ability to work anger out of my life, I first need to assess my understanding of anger. To do this I will answer the following questions in my journal:
A. What is my definition of anger?
B. What usually makes me angry?
C. Who usually makes me angry?
D. What ``hot buttons'' are likely to arouse my anger?
E. How do I usually express my anger?
F. How healthy is my expression of anger?
G. How do I feel when I am in the midst of expressing anger?
H. How do I feel after I have expressed my anger?
I. What are the benefits of my openly expressing anger?
J. What inhibits my ability to express anger?
K. How do others react to my open expression of anger?
L. What negative results occur from my expression of anger?
M. What is the positive outcome of my expression of anger?
N. Where are my problems with anger rooted?
O. How can I recognize my anger and then express it in a healthy way?
Step 2: Once I've analyzed current anger in my life, I need to recognize past, unresolved anger by answering the following questions:
P. What anger issues in my life remain unresolved?
Q. Who are the people with whom I still have unresolved anger?
R. What events continue to conjure up anger for me today?
S. What attempts have I made to work on my unresolved anger?
T. How can I free myself up to work on my unresolved anger?
U. What inhibits me about anger work-out on my unresolved issues?
V. How can I forgive, forget, and heal the past anger?
W. In reading the following piece written by Robert Muller, the former Assistant Secretary General of the United Nations, I feel I am ready to do anger work-out on both current and unresolved past issues.
Decide to Forgive
by Robert Muller
· Decide to forgive
· For resentment is negative
· Resentment is poisonous and devours the self
· Be the first to forgive, to smile and to take the first step,
· And you will see happiness bloom
· On the face of your human brother or sister.
· Be always the first
· Do not wait for others to forgive.
· For by forgiving,
· You become the master of fate,
· The fashioner of life, the doer of miracles.
· To forgive is the highest,
· Most beautiful form of love.
· In return you will receive
· Untold peace and happiness.
· Here is the program for achieving a truly forgiving heart:
· Sunday: Forgive yourself
· Monday: Forgive your family.
· Tuesday: Forgive your friends and associates.
· Wednesday: Forgive across economic lines within your own nation.
· Thursday: Forgive across cultural lines within your own nations.
· Friday: Forgive across political lines within your own nation.
· Saturday: Forgive other nations.
· Only the brave know how to forgive.
· A coward never forgives. It is not in his nature.
Step 3: I will use the anger work-out for all current anger events.
Step 4: I will use anger work-out for all past, unresolved anger issues.
Step 5: I will use the following anger work-out activities for a minimum of fifteen minutes daily. To relieve my built up feelings of anger.
My anger work-out tasks will include:
A.
B.
C.
D.
E.
Step 6: If I still have unresolved anger, I will return to Step 1, and begin again.
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Hi all! Don't know if it's totally appropriate to post this here but I'm going to anyway. I have ignored in every wa my ex N for months and he stopped showing up at NA meetings I attend. I hear through the grape vine that he continued to talk about me during his " sharing". In loving, glowing terms, saying he had absolutely no resentments towards me, I'd done the right thing in kicking him out and " anger no longer existed in his vocabulary or a concept"!!! Three wks. ago he materialized at my meetings and alway s shared about " how fucked up someone he still " loved"( !!!! What the f--k??!!!), and how they were going to go out and use again". Blah blah. He then publicly accused me several times during mtgs. of " cheating on him" with a guy who is only a platonic friend!!!! He referred to me as " promisicous, and no boundaries, jumping from man to man" and referred to my friend as " a predator, a sewer rat, and taking advantage of me" He had no idea that all this shite didn't reflect at allon me or my friend, but on him. Several of the " oldtimers" took him aside and told him his behavour was completely inappropriate. He is not attending my mtg. anymore and I hear he isn't sharing about me. He started showing up at mtg. dressed to the nines( in clothes I'd bought him!! Hee hee!!) and squiring a much younger woman new to fellowship and known as someone with a rep. As if I'd be jealous!!! This only lasted 2 times and heard she rejected him. He then gave his cell number to a friend of mine asking them to pass it to me" in case of an emergency and I'd have to call him". When hell freezes over!!! I continue to receive bills for huge phone debt incurred in his ex's name for his phone sex. I return them to her by mail. I get phone mssg. from his shrink booking appts, his G.P., his lawyer about upcoming dead beat dad court appearance- and I erase them all. I am feeling somewhat pissed at my self for even wasting any energy thinking at all about him and have to admit I've thought about something heavy falling on him. At least I'm not up all night obsessing and plotting his torture and death!!! I feel I need to hold up my hand whenever someone starts takling about him, passing on his mssgs. etc. because even that knowledge is negative energy and keeps me thinking- even if it's only for short periods- about him. I think I've made some progress however. Thanks for lettingme vent!!! Sending light and good karma to all! Moira