Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: stranded on November 23, 2005, 10:35:10 AM
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Hi everyone. I have been lurking for almost a year now, but the time that I have been dreading has arrived - the holidays, so full of family expectations! My husband has broken away from his whole N family earlier this year, and of course I am the one the Ns are blaming for his defection. The main crazymakers - my MIL and SIL - have started to drop their bombs, my husband thinks that, as always precedes their tantrums, it is because people must be coming over, asking about us, and they cannot have the family image tarnished, no, no! (My MIL told him recently, "It's getting harder and harder to come up with lies about where you are.")
So on Monday my MIL emailed my husband to invite him? us? (I forgot to ask him if it excluded me) to Thanksgiving. He said that I was working (which is true). So I am not sure if he even said NO, but just implied it. Anyway, so yesterday my SIL emailed me - bomb #2. She is the biggest crazymaker, her mom is basically her supplier, and she has been the one that has been the most vocal and vehement in her hatred of me (she has said in the past that I plotted and schemed his breaking away from the family, that he never treated them with such disrespect until he met me).
But the subject line was "Hey ; )" The emoticon just sent me over the edge in terms of its insincerity! I never even opened it. I liken it to a suspicious-looking package that is left at your doorstep - DON'T OPEN IT! I guess I am unsure if that's an OK thing to do. I figure that I need to take care of myself and my family right now. I don't have the time or energy to deal with them, especially now.
My husband unfortunately has so many issues with them - his role was caretaker of the family, surrogate husband/father for his mom. His way of dealing is to ignore them. He also has so many women issues, I suppose, having such crazy ones around him his whole life. In general, he wants me to intervene, he wants me to deal with them, he thinks that I should be protecting him from them if I really loved him. And they are in fact driving me to therapy! It's all been too much, especially considering that I think I was voiceless in my own childhood, and I have always retreated in my safe little quiet world. And I'm just realizing too as I write this all down that he also has felt abandonment, which I guess is why he wants me to be the parent he never had.
I know it sounds pathetic to ask for such validation, but what should I do? Should I delete the email without reading it? Should I let my husband know about the email? One instinct is to shield it from him. But I feel like I've been dumped on, and I am starting to feel overwhelmed again. Any insight? Thanks!!
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Hi there:
Ah, the holidays. I am reminded of a great line from The Lion in Winter (one of my favorite movies, and a must-see for any product of an N family): "It's Christmas. What shall we hang--the holly, or each other?"
Since you're already braced for its probable contents, I would say read the e-mail, just in case it contains something different than you expect. That way, you can't provide any ammunition for your sister-in-law (as in, "See, I tried to be nice, and you wouldn't even read my e-mail").
But the larger issue is much more difficult to disentangle. You can't protect your husband from his difficult family, and he shouldn't really expect that of you. What you can do (and, as a wife, sort of do by definition) is to provide him with his own family. That is, his primary loyalty is to you, and you and he should make some decisions about how you want to spend the holidays together--that is, you need to make mutual decisions and you need to spend the holidays in each other's company. That's most important, in my opinion. Whoever else you choose to include is negotiable.
Your husband seems to be practicing major avoidance, in my opinion, and if both of you aren't careful, he may end up coming to see things in his family's light. Please, for the sake of your marriage, make it clear that it isn't your job or your place to come between him and his family--either in productive or unproductive ways. However, it is your place (and his) to make each other the most important person in terms of any planning, holiday or otherwise. I'm sure you know all that, but he seems to be ducking the issue, from what you've written.
It took a long time, in my own marriage, to really understand that truth and live it. We spent some early Thanksgivings apart, since we don't have kids and could easily separate for a holiday, but we hated it. Then we decided that it was much more important to be together than it was to make our respective parents happy, and we've been happier ever since. If you and your husband both "buy into" your holiday plans, nothing else will matter too much. Sounds a bit trite, I guess, but I believe it.
I really think you need to get your husband to protect you, not the other way around, and decide where his loyalties really lie.
Best of luck--you have my empathy on this one. I've dealt with a lot of the same stuff, and I know how absolutely crazy-making it can be.
daylily
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Thank you daylily. I have been dreading reading her email, but you are right. I should have known; the right thing to do often is the hardest.
I know that my husband's loyalties are with me ultimately. I think that he still loves them deep down, even though he does not respect their behavior, and he just doesn't want to hurt them. Of course, though, it feels like I've been sacrificed for their sake. He knows that it is easier for them to hate me than to hate him, because then their pride is not affected. When I've told him how it makes me feel, I feel like he goes into victim mode, he says that he is the one who always has to deal with this, all by himself, which then puts me on the spot. But I suppose I shouldn't care what they think, since he says that they will never like me since I took him away from them.
Well, I suppose I will see what that Trojan horse has to say... :?
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Well, the email wasn't anything, I think. It might have been a mistake! It was a computer-generated invitation to join instant messaging or something to that effect. Maybe she just downloaded all her contacts from her email or something.
Geez, all that hysteria from me for nothing! :oops: Well, it's not like they're never going to call again, but one can only hope! :lol:
Thanks daylily. Actually it will be nice that it will be just us this Thanksgiving. Peace and quiet, for once! Hope it's lovely for you too. :D
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Hi Stranded,
Just wanted to say hello, welcome to the board.
Don't be too embarrassed about overreacting to SIL's email. It's really a symptom of how she's been treating you--you expect to be abused. So when something neutral happens, you are surprised. OK.
I tend to be paranoid and suspicious about certain individuals and this one would have my wheels churning, too. I would even wonder if she did this to see if I would read the neutral email and then send the abusive email as a followup...if you never want to read her email, use the Block Sender feature like someone suggested elsewhere. Then you don't have to wonder!
I agree that your H is the one who has to negotiate any new terms of engagement with his family. If he is avoiding it, it is because he is trying to avoid pain. My brother did this at his own peril. It made things worse. Instead of discussing problems openly, he would duck and dodge. Can't blame him, I've done it too, but I also had to take my stands and face the fire. He never did this. He and my Nfather are still in denial and "undo" mode.
It also sounds like SIL is one of those possessive sisters who wants to choose who gets to join the family. I myself had to fight off my other brother who liked to chase off my boyfriends when he didn't like them. He tried to put the kabosh on my fiance (now H) and badmouth him to my mother. My mother bought into it like she always does with her favorite little man (still a big issue I'm trying to deal with) and told me she "just didn't know what to think of H". For once I hit the roof and went off on her and my brother and told her bro was totally in the wrong, told her all about the evening in question and about my brother's behavior which was less than ideal. "I've never seen you so angry..." she said. I said I guess bro and I are cut from the same cloth after all. Bro is always angry. And always right in my mother's eyes. She is so blind when it comes to him and nothing I need or want matters if he is angry.
I guess my point is, your H has to defend his choices and stop letting them tell him how to live his life. I'm overstating it, but really. you cannot fight his battles for him. He has to slay his own family dragons. Also, don't take the bait of what they say about you. They are really angry with him but dumping on you because somehow they know they can't get mad directly at him when what they want is for him to fall back in line. It's so twisted. I mean, how old are you both? You are adults and they still want control over him. I hope he is not feeling any sort of ego gratification from the tug of war. It doesn't sound like it, but this is a factor with my first brother. There is a tug of war between his wife (my SIL) and my parents, and his wife and their kids. I couldn't stand it and got out of the situation altogether because of the nanny role they were trying to assign me.
Oh well! Don't take it on. Just hand their stuff right back to them. They are not respecting him if they are not respecting you. Good luck! MP
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Hi Stranded,
I have a question. Do you or your husband have a strategy on how to deal with his family? If you did it would make decisions like whether to open their e-mails easier.
Does one or both of you want to cut off contact, or do you want to try and maintain some kind of relationship with them?
If you haven't really figured out what to do with these weirdos it is going to make your lives even harder and it is going to make it easier for them to manipulate you.
Have either or both of you sat down and just tried to figure out whether they're woth having any contact with? You might find life is a lot simpler while they fight amongst themselves rather than with you.
mudpup
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Welcome stranded,
I'm not sure where to start with this, as I can relate to much of it and I wouldn't want you to make the same mistakes I made. My x FIL is VERY n and controls the whole family. I also grew up with a n father, but I eventually learned to stand up for myself and finally broke free of him before he destroyed me. My xh, however, is a weak man who chose to go into business with his very successful, alcoholic n father. We were married for 24 years (22 together before the divorce was finalized in May), and I always took on the role of protecting him, just as I did our children. I never could get him to become a man and fight for his right to be treated as an adult. To this day he is a little boy who is controlled by everyone in his life. His defense mechanism was to become n in his own right, engage in disturbing behaviors about which I had no knowledge, lie about everything, and eventually have an affair with a married woman. The children and I were the only real losers in this, as he remains close to his family and will never recognize or confront their role in his destruction. His father always secretly hated me because he recognized early on that I had him figured out and saw him for the major manipulator that he was. When he saw our marriage starting to come apart, he encouraged my x to leave and come live with him--which he did. Totally sick behavior.
Your h MUST develop his own healthy defense mechanisms. He must learn how to set his own boundaries with his family--and if he can't do that while having contact with them--cut off all ties. This could destroy your marriage if he can't get this right in his mind. They are destructive and will use whatever means possible to get you out of the picture so they can draw him back into the nest.
Two and a half years later, I can see how lucky I am to be out of that situation, but it took a lot of pain and sadness to get to this point. I wish you well.
Brigid
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This mystery e-mail sounds a lot like a computer virus. There are viruses which will mail themselves to everybody on a computer's email address list and they usually have headers that make you curious about the contents. If you were on good terms with her, this email probably would have interested you.
Do you have a virus checker on your computer?
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Hi Stranded,
Your situation is nearly identical to what mine used to be only it was me who was in your h's place. My h tried to be the go between and finally stopped trying when he saw I wasn't ready to do anything. That was in the very beginning. I soon defined their relationship with no contact for about 10 years. Then I began to decide how much interaction I would like to have with them.
The point is I decided. I protected my h from their wrath and attitude and rude comments. I had to step up to the plate because they are my family.
Gradually I've dealt with my screwed up family and now have zero contact. They are too unhealthy for contact.
It is your h's responsibility to deal with his family. And his responsibility to protect you from their wrath and attitudes. That means standing up to them. And it means that if he can't do that yet he needs to distance you from them physically, emotionally and mentally. That is his responsibility.
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Hi Stranded,
(BTW - why this name?)
In the beginning of our marriage, I wanted my husband to shield me from my N family. He was not interested. He did do a few things, and that was enough to give me a little break from time to time. The things were such as talking on the phone to my N mother when I did not want to, taking the blame for not wanting visits, etc.
His reactions and comments were helpful for me to see what the situation really looked like. It was helpful at that point. But nothing really changed as a result of that. It took lots of finding this board and thinking and also lots of really dysfunctional events to do that.
If your husband just needs breathing room, and it is ok with you, you can help him with that. But you cannot solve the problem or take it on completely. He might just be so exhausted and traumatised and need a short break and some support. More than that he has to do on his own.
Just my opinion,
Plucky
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Hi everyone,
Thank you all for your posts. I feel so grateful for your concern and all of your insights.
Well, Thanksgiving has come and gone, and not a peep from the N's. My H just remarked that his mother sure must be mad. My guess is that if she were sad, there would be a lot more desperate calls trying to get him to come back into the fold. So I think it is her stubborn pride, waiting for her son to call her, since she has done nothing wrong of course, as always!
My H's stance is basically avoidance. But avoidance to me is so defenseless. You're just watching the bombs fall out of the sky and running for cover. I guess it is the path of least resistance, just perfect for my H, the king of passive agressiveness! I'm still trying to figure out exactly why this whole situation is bothering me so much. I feel like I think about it all the time, and my H never does. I don't understand this all, his reactions, my reactions. I feel pretty alone, thus my screen name.
Yes, my SIL and MIL are both very possessive of my H. I think my MIL never felt like she had any control in her own life that she really relished having such dominion over her children's lives. An example - my H thinks that she basically convinced and browbeated her daughter to marry someone that SHE herself approved of.
But really, I should not be so distressed about our break from them. But as a mom, I just feel so sad for them that they are missing out on my son's life. My MIL helped to take care of my son for 2 years and saw him half the week. And now she's seen him twice for a few hours in the last year. It's her fault, and she's doing this damage to herself, but I can't help but hurt for them. My H says that that in itself says that just proves her to be a N, that her pride is more important than being with her grandson, and that she really doesn't care about any of us. So why do I care?? I just don't understand myself. We just got my son's first school pictures, and I would love to send them to the N's, but it ultimately is just a reminder of what they have lost, and then we start the whole drama up all over again.
I think what also leaves the N's so bewildered is that he won't talk to them, so the exile is coming from nowhere, in their eyes. Thus, this must be all of my evildoing! They say, yes, we have problems, but we don't deserve to be cut off. After all, it's not like we killed anyone! So I understand what they're saying and say this to my husband, and he says, you don't know, you didn't have to live with them. He keeps saying that his life is so much more peaceful now. And he gets really frustrated and angry that I don't understand, that I don't believe him that it is just much better without them.
I guess this is a question for my own soul-searching, but if my H acts as if he could care less about them, that I think more about them and their feelings than he does, then why do I care so much?? Part of it is my desire for a large extended family, but I suppose quality is more important than quantity. Maybe I just don't feel any closure or something... Things are better now, maybe they are finally giving up, but it was pretty bad before. I would have hours-long emotion-filled conversations with my FIL about how distraught his family was over the break, and it made me feel so guilty. I think they were using my guilt to manipulate me - they were always saying that I had a role to play in all of this, and I wasn't doing anything but sitting back, so then they were starting to think that it was my master plan - to attack and watch the carnage ensue! My H used to say too that I must not really love him, that I needed to stick up for him and defend him from their onslaughts. That has all died down. I was getting too stressed out, and I started to take care of myself first. I stopped picking up the phone, and I stopped talking to my FIL about anything but pleasantries.
But I liked what daylily essentially said - I should concentrate on making our own nuclear family a more cohesive one. Thinking more along those lines, I should focus on making it the family that I want and deserve, and let go of the family I got stuck with! And I need to focus on the people who love me, not on the people who don't even like me or respect me.
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Hi stranded,
But I liked what daylily essentially said - I should concentrate on making our own nuclear family a more cohesive one. Thinking more along those lines, I should focus on making it the family that I want and deserve, and let go of the family I got stuck with! And I need to focus on the people who love me, not on the people who don't even like me or respect me.
I couldn't agree more. Extended families are fine as long as they are loving ones.
I, quite frankly, think you should consider your husband's avoidance of them as a much better and healthier approach than your own. Your husband and kids are your responsibility, not a bunch of trouble making, manipulative inlaws. Why do you care so much what they are missing? It is their choice, by their behavior.
If they come to you and apologize and make an actual effort to treat your family with respect then everything can be hunky dory.
If they continue to manipulate, shame and divide your family then avoidance is not only a real defense it is the best one. The alternative is usually a lifetime of pointless, damaging, painful conflict or demeaning capitulation.
Think of them as a chained up Rotweiller who's having a bad day in the middle of a yard you want to cross with your children. Is it better to walk straight across with a puny stick in your hand or to avoid him altogether by walking around the perimeter?
mudpup
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If they come to you and apologize and make an actual effort to treat your family with respect then everything can be hunky dory.
If they continue to manipulate, shame and divide your family then avoidance is not only a real defense it is the best one. The alternative is usually a lifetime of pointless, damaging, painful conflict or demeaning capitulation.
You are right, mudpuppy. Thank you. I think that the problem is that I have been labeling my H's behavior as negative and passive-agressive. But in terms of N's, it is basically just cutting off their supply, right? When you said "a lifetime of conflict or ... capitulation," it was enlightening. I definitely don't want that. And the less contact we have, the better things have been. I don't know why I forget that. I still don't understand why I care so much, but I think if I focus on what I want - a happy and healthy family - it becomes more and more clear that any energy spent thinking about the N's takes energy I could be spending on loving my own family.
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I still don't understand why I care so much,
Is it possible this is a form of avoidance too? As in avoiding their aggression by placating them?
I'm not saying it is, just wondering if you had ever considered that.
mudpup
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Hi Stranded,
I'd just like to add a vote for enthusiastically creating an extended family...through involving your whole nuclear family, including the kids, is some positive church or community group that meets regularly, shares potlucks, gets to know each other and stays knit together as friends for YEARS.
You can do this! It's often healthier than BIOextended families, and it can give you just as much, if not more, security and warmth.
Can you think of any sorts of places like that you might like to investigate?
It's just the same as with a biofamily, except your commitment to a healthy community or group is voluntary. So it can be even more enriching.
I know friends of mine have been like loyal aunts to my child, and my circle of friends and church-friends have truly become my extended family. I'm not close to my Nbrother, have no husband so no Inlaws, and going out and creating a family of friends was the only answer. It's never too late to do that...
love,
Hopalong
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Hi Stranded,
I can totally relate to your in-law story. That could be my own story. I'm glad things went smoother than expected for the holidays. They usually do for me when I stop thinking about all the drama and focus on my nuclear family. I agree with all that has been said so far. One thing that bothers is that your husband wants you to stand up for him when I agree with others that he should be standing up for you. What exactly does he want you to do?
Stay out of it. Family usually has a way or reconciling eventually but that same forgivness is not equally extended to the in-laws, which could leave you on the outs years from now after they've worked through their issues.
I've been married twenty years and have had to deal with my husband's N mother the whole time. I let her do all the manipulating she wants to behind the scenes (she'd never say anything openly about how she feels about me). I show up for the holidays, make my appearance and depending on how I feel, I will visit for as long or as short as I like. I make myself disappear after I've had enough. She resents it and finds some way to slight us, but I really don't care.
This Thanksgiving, I wasn't much up for it and after dinner I took refuge in my room. The following day, when they all went shopping, I I chose to stay home. When I am up to it I come out of my room and carry on where we left off. No doubt she thinks I am a moody witch and she's right to some extent, but I refuse to play the game. Now if my husband wants me to make an appearance at a particular family event, I will try to accommodate his need for suppport by just being there. If I absolutely cannot, he can decide to go alone or not at all. We take care of our needs and each other as best we can. But truthfully, when they are gone it's "out of sight, out of mind" for us. Thankfully holidays only come around once a year.
Best to you Stranded. You are not alone. There are many families out there is these same circumstances. Don't sweat it. Live your life and maybe they'll find something better to do with their time than blame and stir the pot.
Now it's on to Christmas! (or the next holiday that you celebrate)
CeeMee
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Is it possible this is a form of avoidance too? As in avoiding their aggression by placating them?
I'm not saying it is, just wondering if you had ever considered that.
Mudpup,
I've been doing more reading on narcissism, and I think that my problem is co-dependency (extreme need to please, among other things). Are N's attracted to co-dependent partners? Makes sense...
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One thing that bothers is that your husband wants you to stand up for him when I agree with others that he should be standing up for you. What exactly does he want you to do?
Stay out of it. Family usually has a way or reconciling eventually but that same forgivness is not equally extended to the in-laws, which could leave you on the outs years from now after they've worked through their issues.
Mostly, he has been telling me not to talk to them, to not pick up the phone. There was one time though that they called several times while I was at work and he was at home, and he felt attacked and then was lashing out at me for not being there to tell them to stop calling him, which makes no sense since he told me to not talk to them! I got mad, and then said something unsupportive like, what's the big deal anyway, they're still your parents whether you like them or not. He got really upset then and said how alone he feels, that no one is on his side. And when I say things like, I can't really talk to them because they're not my parents, they're yours, he gets really upset too. So if I get involved, talk to them, and thus I say something that is slightly sympathetic toward them, he gets mad. If I don't get involved, he gets mad. Either way, I'm screwed.
Anyway, not talking to them is easy enough to do. I was letting my guilt and issues get in the way and not supporting him adequately. But I also feel like he doesn't seem to mind that I'm their scapegoat. He thinks 1) we're not going to be able to convince them otherwise due to their narcissism - if it's their son cutting them off, then there must be something wrong with the family, and 2) it's easier on them both psychologically and socially if they hate me than hate him. Everyone understands if it's an evil wife talking the son away from his family, and then no one is to blame but me.
But you're right - ultimately they are family, and however bad it gets, the family has at least some love left for each other, at the very least they have history and psychological ties. I'm basically a complete stranger to them. And of course, being the N's that they are - they don't know a thing about me anyway, almost 5 years later.
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Stranded,
This sounds absolutely MISERABLE. And hugely unfair to you.
You've been "trained" to stand in the vaccum between them and let their arrows and sniping in both directions go through you. You accepted the job...but you thought it was right when you started.
I think it's a good sign, though it must be very painful, that you're starting to feel how this is not right.
I would suggest very strongly that this is a SERIOUS threat to your marriage. You know that anyway, right?
Have you considered couples counseling? It may help you both and telling him you want it might really bring home to him that this is not working for you and you both may pay the price.
Some outside, objective help might really...help!
Just a thought...
Hopalong
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Stranded,
Sounds like you are getting a handle on this as things simmer down.
Your husband hasn't cut all contact with his parents but he wants you not to answer the phone or speak with them. I find that curious. Could it be that he is reacting to you being an empathetic ear to his father. Maybe he feared you may be going over to the "dark side," and leaving him stranded. I think that although it may be very difficult, one can strike a balance. I think it is possible for you to be polite and empathetic towards his family while being loyal to your husband. If he hasn't cut off all contact, why would he want you to? Does he lack trust?
I am still concerned about why he allows them to scapegoat you. This is not about you. This is about his role in the family and their dynamics and he should make that clear and tell them to lay off of you. That would seem the loyal thing to do. When he turned down the TG invitation, why did he make the issue about you having to work? Would he have wanted to go if you didn't have to work that day? This seems like he may be aiding in this scapregoating without realizing it.
It sounds like your husband is confused and unsure about what he wants from you. Has he considered therapy? I agree with Hopalog. This sounds like a serious issue that could affect your marriage. Maybe it would be good to get a third party professional involved.
Hang in there stranded. You're not alone. There are lots of wise people on this board willing and able to give you many insights and share experiences.
CeeMee
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stranded,
I think that my problem is co-dependency (extreme need to please, among other things). Are N's attracted to co-dependent partners?
Yes, absolutely. I think many of us are coey's, or we would not have put up with them for as long as we did. Therapy has helped me a lot with this, but I'm sure there are still some lingering traits floating around.
I, too, see your h's need to make you the scapegoat and his defender as completely unfair and potentially very harmful to your marriage. Your co-dependency is also allowing this to happen. I agree that you guys need some couples counselling and individual counseling so you can learn better methods to navigate through these issues. I can see so many of the same problems in your marriage that I had in my own, so I can say--please get help. Your h is playing the victim and not wanting to take any responsibility for creating the boundaries necessary with his family. Perhaps he is clueless as to how to make that happen, but handing it off to you is not the answer. He must learn that this will only create more conflict and a bigger divide between you and his family. He also needs to set a better example for your children and see the eventual affects on them if he doesn't get this under control.
Hugs,
Brigid
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Hi everyone,
Well, my SIL finally nailed the last nail in the coffin! She did her usual crazymaking at work and, long story short, she had a huge part in someone resigning from the company just weeks away from Christmas. That was it for my husband. I think she behaved in such a way that we both have no guilt about never having any contact with her and the rest of the Ns. My husband said, see I told you they are that evil, you didn't believe me. I didn't. I guess there is a threshold that you reach, and then one day you have just seen enough and you've taken all that you can take. So we are in perfect agreement over them, and I finally have some inner peace. Not too much anger. Just one big shake of the head, and a silent goodbye and good riddance.
Did you all feel with your dealings with N's that you have never known that such evil could exist?! I mean, when I talk to my friends and family about the situation, no one knows anyone who thinks or acts like these people do. I told my mom that they're worse than bad guys you see in the movies! It is so unreal, and that is why it is so difficult - no one can believe that people can be so cruel and insane!!
Thanks for all of your help. I hope I can have enough insight one day to help someone else in a similar situation...
- Not so stranded anymore!
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This is good news Stranded!
FYI, Ns generally do not go quietly. They are like those old horror movies where the monster just refuses to die. Be prepared for a Rasputin move. It sounds like you are ready for them.
Plucky
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Hello Stranded,
How are you doing? I agree with Plucky, watch your back while you wait for the other shoe to drop. But stick to your guns.
Well, my SIL finally nailed the last nail in the coffin! She did her usual crazymaking at work and, long story short, she had a huge part in someone resigning from the company just weeks away from Christmas. That was it for my husband. I think she behaved in such a way that we both have no guilt about never having any contact with her and the rest of the Ns. My husband said, see I told you they are that evil, you didn't believe me. I didn't. I guess there is a threshold that you reach, and then one day you have just seen enough and you've taken all that you can take. So we are in perfect agreement over them, and I finally have some inner peace. Not too much anger. Just one big shake of the head, and a silent goodbye and good riddance.
Yes, when my SIL adopted her second "doll" after refusing to take responsibility for the first one and expecting everyone else to raise them both for her while she basked in her glory of being so "generous" and "kind hearted", we all pulled back never to return. I know that her H did NOT want to adopt another child because he was carrying the load for both of them when he wasn't successful foisting it off on the other women of the family. This woman couldn't even hold, touch, or look at the first one when he needed her. She is so cold. But outside the house, totally friendly!!! We call her sybil for her multiple personalities. My bottom line is the safety of my kids. I consider her craziness a huge danger to my kids' welfare and I don't exaggerate.
But my H was initially concerned that I would fall back under the spell because of guilt or social pressure. This was a legitimate concern. This is when I got therapy and support from a counselor. I was very fragile during this time. I still have to work on holding boundaries and not having to please everyone. This is the gift of all this crap. I've learned to stick up for myself and not feel bad about it.
Now that you are familiar with evil Nness, you will recognize it more and more in the world around you. It opened my eyes up to my Ndad's problem. You may need to do more work on how to hold your boundaries, because believe me, your Ns will keep trying to bring you back in. Read the thread about the letter from someone's cousin... They will try to find the right phrase to wiggle under your skin "you don't care, you're selfish, not nice, not forgiving, mistaken, not loving," etc. They don't care if their words are true, they just want their words to work on you. Hold tight to your truth.
As for your friends, no one will admit to having a narcissist in their midst because a) they haven't had the big revelatory moment you have had yet, b) they're in denial, c) they are not in denial but think that's the way the world is, d) it just isn't a problem for them, or e) they don't want to admit they cowtow to bullies or f) some mixture of these and more. OR they might be N themselves. :shock: Don't look for validation of your decision from your friends. You know you did the right thing for you. They are not affected by this person so their opinion truly doesn't matter.
Keep up the good work. MP
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FYI, Ns generally do not go quietly. They are like those old horror movies where the monster just refuses to die. Be prepared for a Rasputin move.
Darn! Just when you thought it was safe! But I do feel safer than before. I know that I now feel immune to their mind games and guilt trips, and I think now I can recognize it for what it is.
My husband was expecting them to make a fuss at him this weekend, but not a peep. Let's hope it stays that way, but I guess I should not be so hopeful. But at least instead of waiting in dread for the other shoe to drop, I am going about my life, and they are not affecting me emotionally anymore (at least for the moment! But what peace, while it lasts!). I wish my husband could say the same.
- Stranded
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My bottom line is the safety of my kids. I consider her craziness a huge danger to my kids' welfare and I don't exaggerate.
I think now I can see my husband's point of view much more clearly. He feels the same way about our son - that any contact with the Ns is a form of child endangerment. I used to think that it was rather extreme of him to think that way, but he is exactly right, as are you.
I have always had this problem - holding boundaries and not having to please everyone. As I am going to therapy, I feel like my voice is coming out, and I am stronger and not so afraid to feel what I feel, feeling something and not having to apologize for it, or being afraid of someone's disapproval. It will take more time, but it's a start.
Their words sure had an effect on me. I think that the more disconnected you are from your true self for whatever reasons, the more easily you can doubt. I don't know why Ns are such masters/manipulators of the spoken word.
My husband is struggling because he and his sister sort of work together. He is surrounded by people everyday who do not/will not believe him that his sister is a liability. I think that eventually she will have to leave her job when the jig is up, but her lack of work (since she probably spends most of the time trying to get out of work and blaming other people, making them the reason why she is not able to work) is costing him. If the client is gone because of her, then his work with the client ends as well. She was crying today, lying about her role in everything, and my husband was about to have a heart attack as he saw her weaseling her way out of a mess again. The injustice just kills him. So it IS important that he be validated. I don't know how to help him. I told him that 1) life is not fair, 2) there may be no other way out except to wait until her incompetence finally is inescapable. But I suppose that may be a long time. I just don't like to see him so upset. Because then she wins. But it kind of feels like she is winning either way. He can't really leave his job - that's not an option at this point. I've briefly thought of finding ways to drive her crazy, but I don't want to engage in any way, stoop to their level, or get slammed with harrassment charges or something! We may just have to deal and resign ourselves to waiting it out.
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Hello Stranded,
I think now I can see my husband's point of view much more clearly. He feels the same way about our son - that any contact with the Ns is a form of child endangerment. I used to think that it was rather extreme of him to think that way, but he is exactly right, as are you.
Yes. First, there is the emotional abuse from out of the blue headtrips on the kids. Ns make no distinction or allowances for age. Anybody breathing is a competitor. Second, a normal person would think they are leaving their child in the care of an adult with common sense until they learn about Nness. Instead, the "adult" is really a dressed up six year old who makes things worse than if you left the child unattended.
But it kind of feels like she is winning either way.
Yes again. But does it matter? What does she win? An argument that she created? etc etc. Ns are just walking chaotic drama makers. Something to talk about over drinks. If no drama, it's so boring. Actual productive outcomes like serving a client, delivering a work product is irrelevant. The point is drama. The only way out is out. To walk away. You cannot drive her "crazy" because she already is and she lives for that. The only way to drive a N crazy is to leave or to ignore.
Any reaction from your H to his sister is going to stoke her fire. It's called supply. If he can focus on where HE wants to go with his work and his family, she will become a mere distraction.
Hope this helps and good luck again. MP
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So it IS important that he be validated. I don't know how to help him.
I'm so glad things are clearer for you both. I think that if you understand and listen, that is a huge help. Even if you don't know the answers. I know that this is a big part of what is so helpful about this board. Having people who understand and listen, validate, commiserate, and nurture. Who else in his world can do this as you can?
Plucky
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Is it possible this is a form of avoidance too? As in avoiding their aggression by placating them?
I'm not saying it is, just wondering if you had ever considered that.
Mudpup,
I've been doing more reading on narcissism, and I think that my problem is co-dependency (extreme need to please, among other things). Are N's attracted to co-dependent partners? Makes sense...
N's are attracted to what they can use as a supply for their narcissistic need. Their radar picks up on anyone with that supply. So, yes, co-dependency would be an ideal supply.
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I have always had this problem - holding boundaries and not having to please everyone. As I am going to therapy, I feel like my voice is coming out, and I am stronger and not so afraid to feel what I feel, feeling something and not having to apologize for it, or being afraid of someone's disapproval. It will take more time, but it's a start.
Their words sure had an effect on me. I think that the more disconnected you are from your true self for whatever reasons, the more easily you can doubt. I don't know why Ns are such masters/manipulators of the spoken word.
Hi Stranded,
The more you are connected to your true self, the less hold N's will have on you. Their words will be powerless. You will know the truth. You are definitely on that journey to finding the real you.
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I've developed a nose for the Ns, very, very slowly, but surely.
Now that I know about N's, I trust my gut when I meet someone. It's eerie - the shock you get when meeting one once you know about this type of people. It's instant revulsion. My husband met a friend of a friend, and the second he met her, he said he could feel himself recoil in horror!
- Stranded