Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: HeathMcFar on November 29, 2005, 01:31:20 PM
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My husband has two daughters, ages 6 and 7, who (except for standard visitation with us) live with their mother. Although I don't think she's been diagnosed, she fits ALL of the criteria for NPD.
We're seeing signs of her effect on the girls, and have even taken her back to court in the past for parental alientation and contempt issues. My husband requested psychological evaluations and offered to pay for both sides, but she managed to convince the judge that the tests were NOT necessary (she's extremely good at putting on a normal face) as well as fool the court-ordered therapist.
I've done a lot of reading on the subject of NPD, learning the best way to deal with these people is to NOT deal with them, but turn and walk away. My stepdaughters don't have that option, plus they love their mother and are loyal to her.
My husband and I never say anything negative about their mother, their N-grandmother, or their N-stepfather in front of the girls. We try to present as normal a home as possible, where there are hugs, kisses, rules and consequences, and people are allowed to be human. But they're starting to emotionally pull away, disrepect boundaries, and act downright rude (in other words, emulate their mother), and we're afraid of what's to come.
My questions to all of you are:
What can we do and/or say to help these children?
What would have made a difference for you, growing up under these circumstances?
Thank you all, in advance, for your help!
-Heather
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My response to Nmother was different: I did the opposite of acting out and suffered great loneliness and depression. Terrible sadness for years. What I needed was someone to say, you are a good and wonderful little girl and I am going to teach you how to deal with bullies. I am going to protect you from your brother. I am going to do battle for you at your school. I am going to take you to karate class!
Your stepchildren sound like they might need different messages (none of whom have to refer to their mother in any way):
You are a great kid. I care about you so much that I am going to teach you some things you might not like me for, because I know these are lessons it's very important for you to learn so you can be a happy adult. And the lessons would be CONSEQUENCES (fair, appropriate, and fitting the crime):
Rudeness = (Consequence A)
Hitting = ...etc.
Then AFTER the timeout or restriction or whatever, you repeat why it was done. (However, it should come from their Dad...as the step-parent shouldn't have to be primary disciplinarian, no more than just "the adult in the house" when he's not there. The main job of it should be his.)
My two cents...mostly borrowed from watching "The Nanny"!
Hopalonog
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Thank you, Hopalong.
My husband is the primary disciplinarian, and I normally stand silently beside him to present a united front. But the girls gravitate toward me quite often. I suspect because they need a female role model; someone they can look to for approval and guidance. In their primary home, their stepfather takes care of them (discipline, after-school activities, domestic roles). We know this based on numerous comments by both girls ("Mommy sleeps most of the time"). The only time their mother interacts with them is to dress them up and parade them around.
The older one throws tantrums and the younger one tells lies about people, where she plays the victim and gets the attention (she's done this to me - I made her "stand in the corner" when actually I told her she could go play with the other kids). My husband and I have talked to them both about these behaviors. We tell them "you're a great person, but this behavior is unacceptable" and then they're disciplined in a suitable manner.
He has tried to get them in counseling, but their mother won't agree. She gets highly defensive, saying there's nothing wrong.
Based on your comments, we'll keep doing what we're doing and hope for the best.
-H
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Hi Heather,
I wish you luck. You are wonderful to care about them and try to provide a sane place for them. The main thing, I think, is to show them a normal relationship, family, and environment. I think their behavior could be classified as acting out, so you can have some sympathy for them, but I agree you should not tolerate rude treatment. You will have to model resistance to being disrespected.
When they are acting out, you can say, are you feeling angry? What has happened to make you feel bad? Just try to elicit their feelings and be supportive of them, whatever they are, and whether or not they are in your opinion justified or even true. They might blame things on you because they feel afraid to blame the mother. So don't try to correct them, just take the feelings as standalone and deal with them.
They are so little, you really can't blame anything on them. I know that even tiny children can be maddening. But at that age, they are really just reflecting what has been put into them, mainly. So realise that what you are seeing is the mother, not the child.
Hope this helps.
Plucky
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Steven Covey has a beautiful visual that may help you with this. Helps me all the time.
Picture a larger circle and a smaller circle within it. The larger is your "circle of concern" (all those things that concern you....how the girls are feeling would be there). The smaller one inside of that is your "circle of influence" (what YOU can actually do/have influence over would be there....ie: how you show love to the girls at
your house).
We get into a real mess when we are out in our circle of concern, spinning our wheels, obsessing and worrying about things over which we have no real control at all. It's a recipe for pain.
In spending our time "out there" we actually diminish our smaller inner circle of influence, as we are wasting our energy, and not finding creative solutions where they can actually have some effect.
If we turn our attention, instead, to that which we CAN influence and spend our thoughts and energy there, we actually find creative solutions to our problem, increase our influence further AND we are a lot happier.
Now I ask you, what could be more important to those girls than spending time in a home that is HAPPY?
Make sure your intention is pure. Make sure you are not just a second lieutenant to your husband's anger at his ex wife. If those anger issues are cleared and your concern is truly for those children, then focus on what will help them the most. BE happy. Stop concerning yourself with the myriad of problems at the mom's house. You cannot influence that.
As the children get older, the natural narcissistic tendencies of youth will be replaced with making a choice of how to do life. They will choose the example presented to them that shows happiness, positivity and mental health.
That's what you can do for them.
My children's father is self centered, narcissistic aand manipulative. His wife is rude to them, and they both drink too much. What can I do about that? NOTHING. I can only have influence when the children are with me...they can see me move on and make healthy choices in life. That's all. If I don't like their behavoir at my home, I can set boundaries and consequences. If they are learning it from dad's house....oh well! I can still only do what I can at my house to be safe and happy.
I will admit to bristling at your comment about going after a 'parental alientation" judgment. PAS" is subjective, sticky, politically generated and hard to prove AND disprove. There are many, many cases where it has been used horrifically by the "father right's initiative" to give custody to abusers... Obviously you are not of that ilk, but it's a real nightmare, that PAS. Like playing with poisonous snakes. I hope your husband has moved on from that.
Stick with the positives, not the negatives. You love these children. You offer them a good example of how to behave and demonstrate love to fellow humans. Ignore the mother's "inadequate" mothering and N ness and stay within your circle of influence. What goes on in your house. What kindness looks like. What healthy behavoir and expectations look like. What forgiveness looks like. What love really does for a person. Those will be mighty lucky kids, and I must say, they are already, for all your apparent love and caring!
Focus on what you WANT for these girls, not what you DON"T WANT. Then you will be increasing your own happiness, and demonstrating a great way to do life for these girls.
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Mum,
I'm flat-out staggered by your wisdom.
Hopalong
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Hoppy, Thanks, but I'm not all that smart....I just channel others well..... and sometimes what I hear works for me
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But they're starting to emotionally pull away, disrepect boundaries, and act downright rude (in other words, emulate their mother), and we're afraid of what's to come.
It might be very helpful to try to find ways to ascertain whether or not the children are "reporting" on the way things are when you're visiting with them to N-Mother, and whether or not N-Mother is ultimately influencing the children to behave this way when you're with them.
My advice in having dealt with 2 narcissistic parents is this: be very very subtle, do not let on that you are thinking about why they're doing what they're doing, just try to present a face that might be compatible with what would make them look good, let them "teach" you about the nature of the situation, don't go grabbing for information, be cool. Sometimes it takes a long time to really understand what the right solution is. Remember to be cool, keep your head and keep thinking.
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Plucky,
Thank you for the encouragement. No, we don't blame them for certain behaviors; we're just trying to show them a good path.
Mum,
Covey's visual is great! Thank you for sharing it, and other wisdom.
And in our defense, we weren't going for a PAS judgement. In the original Custody decree, one of the clauses states that neither parent is to attempt to alienate the children from the other parent. She was doing this in many, many ways, from telling the girls (when they were toddlers) that "you're Daddy doesn't love you any more and is leaving you" and "I got you a new Daddy" --- this based on the statements made to my husband by his then 3-year old --- to telling anyone who would listen, including his own children, how abusive he was. There was even an official report filed with Social Services against him, but concluded him innocent. I could go on and on... He had to take her to court to stop all of her nonsense. He didn't try to change the custody situation; he doesn't want to take them away from their mother any more than he wants their mother to take them away from him. His goal is to give these girls voice, security, strength and emotional stability; to protect their senses of selves as much as possible. That's why I came here --- to ask those of you with the benefit (or curse) of hindsight.
Richie,
I don't understand "just try to present a face that might be compatible with what would make them look good, let them "teach" you about the nature of the situation" --- could you give me an example?
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What would have helped me before, and what helps me now, is people being willing to listen to me, and to believe what I say. And also people who are willing to tell me the truth.
To paraphrase the Bible, Ns are liars and the father and mother of lies, and the truth is not in them.
They distort our reality out of all recognition, and it takes us years to work out what truth actually is, let alone start to live our lives in relation to truth.
What I think you can give these girls is a willingness to listen to them, and also not to distort their reality. Allow them to feel what is real for them, and be there through good and bad. They will learn for themselves which is the home to be trusted, and which is built on lies.
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Thank you so much, October.
We can definitely listen to them, believe in them, and tell them the truth!
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Hi Heather,
It sounds like you all are going to be fine. One thing I would add. As a child of an N mother, I craved fun, magical, safe moments. There were precious few in our childhood. Those girls need a place to exercise fantasy (my mum was too busy coping with the denial of her depression and exerting control), they need to be listened to, as has been said so well, and they need real advice when they get older on how to deal with becoming a woman.
N mothers are known, on this board at least, for not adequately preparing their daughters for adulthood, adolescence, or even childhood. Messages that let a budding beauty know she is lovely and is allowed to shine and be the center of attention, without competing with n mother; instructions on how to create and maintan boundaries that prevent them from becoming victims of using men and women friends; encouragement in their chosen pursuits, rahter than the pursuit chosen by the n mother.
This may not be coming up as much since they are so young, but it will.
Good luck
Plucky
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Hello Heath,
I will tell you upfront that I do not have experience with stepchildren, but I think the above advice is going to help me with other people's children.
That said, it took me a while to figure this out, but some words I find useful when dealing with a "family culture" that is different from mine is "we're not doing that now" or "this is how it works in this house". Don't try to "educate" them on what behaviors are good or bad, like lying or manipulating which they may pick up from their mother, or simply from being children of divorce. Lay out the guidelines and consequences at your house. Also be sure to reward them when things go well at your house. (BTW, this is different from bribing them in advance). If they are getting along and treating you with respect, say, it's so great to have your company. Would you like to go to a movie or go shopping tomorrow? This isn't manipulation, but appreciation and recognition for their efforts to learn appropriate behavior at your house. Hopefully you will feel empowered by making a difference in this positive way, too.
mp
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hi, Heath(er?). It's obvious you and your husband are dealing with that crazy N stuff and that your husband has his head on straight. I am glad to hear he is not "going after" his ex, but clearly doing what he can to create stability for the girls. Wow. It sounds tough.
Maybe it will help to remember that children need only ONE good parent. It would be great if they had two...but it's obvious in the case of your step daughters that the "good one' is your husband. And he is mighty lucky (as are the girls) to have YOU, someone loving and secure to demonstrate how a healthy adult woman behaves. You can be such a positive role model for them. It's what we DO that kids see and emulate... They will choose based on what they see us choosing.....
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Hi Heather,
WHat would help the children depends upon whether they are inthrall of the N mom, or in antagonism with her. I was the pet child of N mom. What would have helped me? My dad standing up to her for me, really, that more than anything else. Then just having a real close relationship with someone else. That would have been a counterbalance to mom's craziness. Of course mom did her best to sabotage any such relationship opportunities in my life. I suspect that your husband's ex will pull the same number with your step daughters. So you have to go very slow in building your relationship with them. THen some intimation that my mom was not normal would have helped enormously too. If you can somehow stick with psyche evaluation, that could help enormously.
Goodluck, Marta
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Hi-
What would have helped?
Well, someone, anyone, to be there for me, to love me and hang out with me, to communicate in a loving way. Someone to talk to me and to listen to me. Someone to rely on.
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What would have helped?
Someone who would really listen, really hear me, and really care. A true support system. A soft place to fall.
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If someone were to tell me as a child that my mother had serious problems, at the time I would not have believed anyone. My mother was the master manipulator, she took intimate, and valuable character forming information and used it to gain advantage at whatever moment it became prudent.....for her. What ended up helping me ultimately, and even now as I have my own small family was the time that people randomly took to take me fishing, camping, sports, and interest. As a few certain angels in my childhood quietly, and unjudgingly introduced hobbies, and interests to me from their simple and non-prying angle new worlds opened up that later would be come the world that would teach me sympathy, empathy, consequences, fairness, and many other life skills. These skills were not really skills, they were more fragments, and tastes of better options, and or oasis's that were a places to go to, even now. I am troubled still by confusion, anger, guilt, and many other hardcore B/W decisions that a child of an N parent are forced to make sooner, but mostly later as the knowledge and courage are gained.
I love the migration of the salmon and steelhead in the pacific northwest. I love knowing how to trout fish in so many different places with the so many different skills and baits to use depending on all of the circumstances. I love the personal challenge and integrity involved in sports, in my case now golf, I love a pure drive and a winding putt that sometimes luckily winds its way to the hole and drops.
I am glad that these arbitrary angels taught to me what they loved, it helped me love what they loved, love them, and now it helps me to try to stay on the slippery median of the tumultuous N world with my mother now, my family now as it relates, and my knowing that there is something better out there, I just have to find it. I certainly dont have even one fifth of the answers that I need, but when I land a salmon with my kids all of those questions kind of get reset to be answered another day, or perhaps never. I do know something, that my mother is a testament of misery, and instablility that is a constant reminder that my precious children need protection from that N world so help me God.
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Wally, why, that is a lovely post!
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Hello:
I have just joined and hope I can be of help. I have come to the realization over the last several months that my mother was an nMom. It explains everything that happened to me while in that household and years afterwards.
As I think back the thing that would have helped me most is a straightforward honest explanation of her disorder. Or of some confirmation that she was messed up and it wasn't me. I know that people around me, especially my father, tried to "hint" to me how to handle her, by when you are confused and frightened and living in the same household as a crazy person, hints don't do the job. I know that there were people around me who could have saved me years of pain if they had the courage to be honest. It porbably would be risky for them if nMom found out, but that is what would have spared me a lot of pain and mistakes due to it.
LostSurvivor
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Wally, I think you're right.
Even if we came up with a logical explanation of N behavior that the girls could understand, they wouldn't want to hear it. Maybe when they're much older, we can give them a book about N's.
And I do tell my husband, based on my gut feelings, that the best we can do right now is present them with glimpses of normalcy (normal relationships, normal behavior, normal discipline, etc). We all have our demons from childhood; my husband and I just wish we could do more to protect these children in the here and now.
I recently told my older stepdaughter that adults don't always speak the truth --- to believe what she sees and what she feels much MORE than what she hears. I also told her that just because a person is grown doesn't mean he or she knows everything (something I was surprised to discover upon reaching adulthood - what a disappointment!). She just stared at me with wide, solemn eyes and nodded her head. She knows something's wrong, but she won't talk about it.
Lost:
The girls wouldn't welcome an explanation. They crave their mother's love and attention, as false as it appears to anyone that has known this woman for more than a month (and I think even to the girls). But I promise you this: if either of them ever asks me a question that I can find the answer to (from a book or an expert or my own experience), I won't hesitate to be honest and straightforward with them.
Thank you all, again, so much for your insight.
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Hi Heather,
You sound like a wonderful caring person. The fact that you care, the fact that you see the truth and are truly there for them helps them. My mum is narcissistic but I always had a sister that loved me and was there for me, She is 8 years older than me. My mum confused me a bit and tried to turn my sister and I against each other. Every child needs to be nurtured. N mothers can't do this, You can offer them nurture and a safe place to fall. My sister and I nurtured each other. We see the truth about our mother. If I didn't have my sister I may not have never seen the truth and be brainwashed by my mum. Kids will chose what they believe when they are older but the fact they will know they were loved, nurtured, listened to and respected by you and your husband will be hugely influencial. These girls are still very impressionable so there is alot of hope for them. The things that I wished my mother did was smile at me, try to get to know me, spend time with me and speak to me kindly.
The only thing that concerns me is that if their nmum gets any idea that you are not agreeing with her, she may try turning the girls against you. I hope this is not the case but don't underestimate her power ever. They will do anything to gain control. They don't care.
All the best and I think you are amazing for those girls.
Jessica :)
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Okay, Bean, tell me what to say to these children that will clue them in on their mother's behavior. Give me an agenda, an outline, a list of details. If it's that easy, I would truly appreciate and USE the information you provide. How do you approach the subject, with a 6- and 7-year old, to begin with? "Once upon a time, there was this mommy who LOOKED normal and ACTED normal in public, but when she took her children in the house and shut the door, her nice-mask fell off and she turned into a ..." or "Although I'm not a mental health professional, I feel, very strongly, that your mother suffers from 'Narcissistic Personality Disorder' which can be diagnosed when one displays 5 or more of the following criteria..." or how about "You're mommy's a nutcase! You want some ice cream?"
Have you ever been in my husband's or SingleDad's situation? Do you know how EASY it is for a father to lose his custody and/or visitation rights? Anything he says (to the child that is and will be reported to the mother) can and WILL be used against him in a (civil) court of law. Whereas most fathers have to either be rich and sadistically narcissistic themselves or have a ton of damning information on their exes (such as her mainlining heroine while prostituting herself to and in FRONT of the judge), a mother can say "he's mean" or "he's insinuated to our child that I'm not mentally stable" and get custody! Yes, that's slowly changing, but we won't see full court-acknowledged equality in our lifetimes! Also, SingleDad said his ex was officially, professionally diagnosed with NPD, and the judge STILL awarded her custody!
Call my husband and myself cowardly and narcissistic if you want to or need to, but don't suggest the fix is quick and easy unless you're prepared to deliver it with the guarantee it won't further screw up these innocent kids or cost my husband what precious little time he has with them!
H
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Hi Bean,
While I understand why you are angry, I don't think Heather deserves your anger. She is trying to figure out what to do for 2 little girls. Remember they are very young. It is hard to know what to say. Youung children think differently from adults. The bare truth may be too much for them.
Heather, I would try to find some children's books which dealt with the feelings they are likely to experience. I don't know any offhand but if I run across some I will post. My children are drawn to books in which the children express the feeelings they have, especially fear and anger and jealousy. If you talk to a children's librarian or troll the web you night find some ideas.
Good luck
Plucky
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Thanks, Plucky.
Apology accepted, Bean.
-H
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Anything he says (to the child that is and will be reported to the mother) can and WILL be used against him in a (civil) court of law. Whereas most fathers have to either be rich and sadistically narcissistic themselves or have a ton of damning information on their exes (such as her mainlining heroine while prostituting herself to and in FRONT of the judge), a mother can say "he's mean" or "he's insinuated to our child that I'm not mentally stable" and get custody!
I'm glad you pointed this out, Heather. I was about to. It is not just fathers who get this end of the stick, but mothers as well, especially in states such as mine, where the courts are bending over backwards NOT to look "mother biased". Of course, my ex also fits your description of rich and sadistically narcissistic.... Ironic how the kids don't seem to fit into the formula in the courts!!
Bean, I am sorry for the stuff you have seen/gone through. My flippant comment about needing only one good parent was naive...but meant to be supportive for those of us stuck "coparenting" with a flaming N.
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Hiya all
I thought I'd add my two cents to this... and I'm coming at it from a child of divorce with a Mum who had her own troubles, a stepdad who I grew up with from the age of 5 and an N father who got custody of me one Saturday a fortnight.
What helped me......
1. My Stepdad. He was just a placid man than when he was angry I knew it was bad. However he never hit me, never smacked me and now I have more respect for him than anyone else. His discipline was to "stand in the corner facing the wall".
2. Leaving home at 17. Although partly this was a bad time in my life due to being rejected by Mum and bio Dad, I also had a "surregate mum". She was my boss and my neighbour. I had my independence, as I lived on my own, however she helped me so much and a lot to do with the person I became is because of her help.
I'm not sure that telling the children about N's or mental illness would be beneficial. From my personal experience anyway, I would "pretend" I had a normal family. If someone had tried to take that away from me, they would have took away my survival technique.
Everyone is different and there are no easy answers to this. I feel we just have to try our best with the information we have at the time. I feel providing them with a healthy, safe place with good boundaries to be is better than anything.
My two cents anyhow.... for what they're worth.
H&H