Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: CeeMee on December 05, 2005, 05:26:15 PM
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I'm thinking I am an extravert who is socially inept. For whatever reason, I didn't learn many of the unspoken rules for human interaction. I think that they may be a factor in my limited ability to interact successfully or build strong relationships. I don't care where this thread goes, just give me any and all your thoughts.
I've never been able to navigate a male friendship around the romantic, sexual part. Long story short, although I get along superbly with men, the relationships can't last long because either I don't want to have a romantic relationship or can't have one. I really am happily married. Why does it always seem to come to this? Am I doing something wrong? Do I have a problem? Or is it true what I have long believed, heterosexual women cannot have "friendships" with heterosexual men?
So there are a few members of the board who I really like and want to know what's up. I haven't heard from them in a period of time. My inclination is to write and find out what's happening and why they haven't been on. When is the socially correct time to show concern? What is the significant amount of time to have lapsed to warrant a reaction. I am distracted by the thought that perhaps I am being intrusive or pushy wanting to know what's going on. They'll get back to the board in their own good time. I am also distracted with wild thoughts like, something has happened or I said something to offend. Am I crazy to think there even is an unspoken rule here?
We talked recently on another string about phone calls. It brought to mind my own limitation which is, I don't know the rule for appropriate length of time for a conversation. I hate the phone and rarely get on it because of it. For some reason, I want the other person to determine when the conversation will end (unless I need it to end sooner) but I don't know what the cues are (at least the ones detectable over the phone). What is an appropriate amount of time to spend on the phone with someone who you are trying to establish or reestablish rapport with?
Thanks for any feedback and I also welcome anyone else who has questions about unspoken rules.
CeeMee
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Hi CeeMee,
I know how you feel. I feel the same way, like a blundering buffalo who went extinct but no one told me.
My head knows that not everyone knows the 'rules'. That there really is not a silent conspriacy to punish with ostracism anyone who doesn't know the rules. That most people out there have weak spots and insecurities and are not sure how to conduct themselves. That the ones who don't, are frequently bullies and such.
My heart feels left out and as though I deserve it. Like I'll never fit in. I never have, I never will. I'm flawed. I'm a geek. They're laughing behind my back. I'm dressed wrong. I look wrong. I do the wrong things. I don't do the right things.
My spirit knows that I am unique and really don't need to follow the crowd. That I can think for myself and don't have to waste time trying to be accepted by people who are just looking to stroke their own egos by rejecting others.
It just depends on which shoulder I'm listening to that day! (Yes, I have 3 shoulders! Now back off!)
Plucky
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Plucky....
I ABSOLUTELY LOVED your response. I am laughing, laughing, laughing a wonderful laugh because it won't stop resonating. Thank you. I couldn't have said it better myself.
CeeMee
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Hi CeeMee,
I ditto Plucky the buffalo. I bet neither of you are the slightest buffalish.
I just want to offer this thought: I think what can ease that anxiety a little bit is if you focus on what your own intention is. If you'd like to contact members of the board (you mean a board where you work? this board? anyway, either way...) because you are thinking of them, my sense is, why not?
Just: Let Go of the Outcome.
If you can calm your fear, and THEN contact, maybe it'd go better. Like, for example, you've expressed some doubts about:
1) males misconstruing your connecting
2) appropriate lengths of time to talk
How about:
1) setting up some external boundaries for yourself that might dilute that worry, such as (I don't know what the situation is): asking Male X if he'd like to join you for a cup of tea, in daytime, in a public place or company place, and sitting in a non-intimate setting for a pre-set limited amount of time. (E.g., "I can meet you at 11:30 for 45 minutes..." or whatever fits the situation.)
2) if you would like to call, then perhaps since you do sense you have trouble feeling your way into an appropriate time limit, you could set one at the outset of a call. Such as, "I've got to be out the door in 10 minutes but I wanted to say hello, ask you about ___, or whatever. Have you got 10 minutes now or when's good for you?" (Something like that, but you get the drift...it's not unfriendly, it's really a neutral piece of information you're just placing at the beginning of the conversation, which is really considerate of both of you.) Privately, it may help you feel less anxious about time-trespass, and to the other person, it just comes across as considerately cluing them in to what the time deal is. And that's a nice thing. (Or I always appreciate it when someone does that...)
Maybe setting some "artificial" boundaries that seem to symbolically reflect what your intuition is concerned about would help you navigate these 2 areas with less fear?
Hopalong
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Hoppy,
Letting go of the outcome is the right answer I know yet so hard to do. My input is a major factor in that outcome and so I try to make sure I am putting the right things in i.e. spending the appropriate amount of time on the phone without cutting the person short or keeping them too long. I don't want to take the lead here, I want them to determine how long and know when that time is reached. It seems everyone else knows the appropriate amount of time and how it is calculated except me and Plucky :)
With men, it is not the amount of time, it is the quality of that time. I tend to feel so comfortable around men that I may send off the wrong signals (again the wrong input which may be affecting the output). I believe growing up with mostly brothers is part of the reason why I am so at ease around guys and slip into these awkward situations. While I get along great with guys, I flounder in female relationships.
CeeMee
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Well yer gittin' along fine with ME! :D
I still vote for trying out the preset time limit exercise on the phone. I know you WANT the other person to do it, but I bet experimenting with setting it yourself (in a nice way of course) might surprise you. It might just give you a feeling of, oh. Just: Oh. I can pluck a time limit out of the air BEFORE I call a person (or even when you answer, as in: Hello! Great to hear from you. I'm good for about ___ minutes...etc.). AND NOTHING BAD HAPPENS! It's maybe just an "Oh." Neutral. But doesn't feel that way to you because you've maybe developed a bit of mild phobia about it.
The other thing: I've been in the same boat with men. I've started to sometimes simply SAY what it is in my case: You know, I'm sometimes so over-the-top exuberant that guys think I'm flirting when I'm just being friendly. (I share that with a guy, not intensely, and that way enlist THEM in ensuring that I'm not misunderstood.) Most times, it invites friendship and defuses their automatic response.
In your case, maybe it could be: You know, I grew up with brothers and I feel so comfortable and relaxed around guys that sometimes they think I'm flirting when I'm just...etc.
??
Hopalong
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I'm thinking I am an extravert who is socially inept. For whatever reason, I didn't learn many of the unspoken rules for human interaction. I think that they may be a factor in my limited ability to interact successfully or build strong relationships. I don't care where this thread goes, just give me any and all your thoughts.
Have felt this way in the past. I think I am overcoming this as I get to know myself and feel at home inside me.
I've never been able to navigate a male friendship around the romantic, sexual part. Long story short, although I get along superbly with men, the relationships can't last long because either I don't want to have a romantic relationship or can't have one. I really am happily married. Why does it always seem to come to this? Am I doing something wrong? Do I have a problem? Or is it true what I have long believed, heterosexual women cannot have "friendships" with heterosexual men?
Interesting because I have had the same problem for a long, long time. Now I believe that is coming to an end. I have my first male friend and there is nothing romantic between us. I believe he is an introvert like me and possibly an INFP. I watch him work and it reminds me of myself. Prefers unsupervised, non-group work and works well alone. He's working on himself too and we talk about that sometimes as well.
Maybe it is choosing the wrong men for friendships? Or maybe your body language and facial expressions say romance?
So there are a few members of the board who I really like and want to know what's up. I haven't heard from them in a period of time. My inclination is to write and find out what's happening and why they haven't been on. When is the socially correct time to show concern? What is the significant amount of time to have lapsed to warrant a reaction. I am distracted by the thought that perhaps I am being intrusive or pushy wanting to know what's going on. They'll get back to the board in their own good time. I am also distracted with wild thoughts like, something has happened or I said something to offend. Am I crazy to think there even is an unspoken rule here?
We talked recently on another string about phone calls. It brought to mind my own limitation which is, I don't know the rule for appropriate length of time for a conversation. I hate the phone and rarely get on it because of it. For some reason, I want the other person to determine when the conversation will end (unless I need it to end sooner) but I don't know what the cues are (at least the ones detectable over the phone). What is an appropriate amount of time to spend on the phone with someone who you are trying to establish or reestablish rapport with?
Speaking on the phone and sending email have got to be the worst forms of communication. You can't see facial expressions. You can't see body language. These two expressions tell communicate loads of information about how long to stay in conversation with someone.
I found these 5 things online about speech.
Pitch
Speed
Volume
Inflection
Enunciation
I found a book online called Etiquette for Dummies. I might get it. It is for business, personal and students.
Here's a review about it:
Good manners matter – and not just during formal events. Etiquette isn’t just about which fork to use or how to hold a teacup. Good manners and etiquette are as important in the supermarket checkout line as they are at a state dinner. They are the key to surviving every human contact with your sense of humor and self-esteem intact. In most cases, it’s just a matter of good old “Golden Rule” common sense – do unto others as you would have them do unto you[/i]: for example, staying home from a dinner party when you’re sick. And yes, sometimes it is about the right fork or the right form address.
The Golden Rule sounds easy to follow and makes sense. If I don't want someone to take talk for hours on the phone, I shouldn't do that to them. If I don't like being asked certain types of questions, I need to refrain from doing that to others. What I find offensive is probably offensive to others. The best recent example I have of that is my exNgirlfriend asking me what size underwear I wear. :shock: I would never ask her that question. I wonder if she would have felt if I asked her that? That's too personal and none of her business.
I did find in Wikipedia that etiquette is unspoken rules. So you are right, there are unspoken rules.
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Exhuberance! Yes, that I have. Particularly when I am on that manic edge. I like your suggestion there. I will try to get their involvement next time in keeping the resonance on the up and up. I do this with women too. If on the off chance I feel comfortable with a woman, I can get so excited to be connecting that I scare them off, or if they are gay, they think I'm interested.
That's a wonderful testament to you SF that you have a male who is interested in you for you and not anything romantic or sexual. I hope to find that one day.
SF I too have heard of the Golden Rule. I've also heard about the Platinum Rule which states that we should treat people the way that they want to be treated. The only way I can know is by asking and not assuming that they feel the same way I do about things. It can be difficult at times because you don't know how that person will react to your question, but once you have your answer, you can respect that persons wishes.
Having said that, I don't know that I'd be asking about someone's underwear size unless I had a really good reason or circumstance to :shock:
CeeMee
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SF I too have heard of the Golden Rule. I've also heard about the Platinum Rule which states that we should treat people the way that they want to be treated. The only way I can know is by asking and not assuming that they feel the same way I do about things. It can be difficult at times because you don't know how that person will react to your question, but once you have your answer, you can respect that persons wishes.
CeeMee
The Golden Rule has it's flaw in that many people don't treat themselves very well and violate themselves. Therefore they would violate or be intrusive to others.
The Platinum Rule sounds like it would bypass that flaw.
There might be relationship/communication preferences based on being extroverted like you or introverted like me.
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Yes SF. I agree that there probably are different rules or preferences depending on whether one is introverted or extraverted. I'm trying to learn some of them. If
I called you on the phone after a long time. How long of a conversation would be sufficient? What would be the customary questions for you? Would you expect me to know when you wanted to go? Would you expect to be the one to signal when it was time to go or should the conversation come to a natural close? If so, how?
CeeMee
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Hi CeeMee
I'm just popping in quickly today and I spotted this
How long of a conversation would be sufficient?
anything between 2 minutes and about 2 and a half hours. Depends on mood, other obligations, schedule, hunger....I generally need a ciggie break after 2 and half hours.
What would be the customary questions for you?
Do you have time to talk right now? (important! you could just have got out of the shower to answer the phone.)
How are you? - with serious listening by both parties.
Can I ask you about something? - a signal I'd like help/advice
How did it go with.....(are you okay about something that happened to you)
Would you expect me to know when you wanted to go?
Not unless I said "well I ought to be getting on with...." "Well my ear's beginning to hurt..." or "zzzzzzz"
Would you expect to be the one to signal when it was time to go or should the conversation come to a natural close? If so, how?
If you didn't get the hint above, I'd resort to "Look i really have to pee right now and I don't have a cordless phone!!!!" (I've used this one and some people still keep talking. Incredible.)
What happens to you on the phone? Tell me now and I'll be back in a day or so to catch up with you!
Note: if it's either of my parents, i could leave the phone on the table, do some ironing, make coffee and return and they probably wouldn't stop in their flow. How about your friends and family? Got any like that?
must go....I have to..... :shock: :D P
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Hi all:
Plucky wrote:
I feel the same way, like a blundering buffalo who went extinct but no one told me.
Then Ceemee wrote:
I couldn't have said it better myself.
Then Hoppy wrote:
I ditto Plucky the buffalo
And all I can say is:
(great long sigh...snort....while pawing the floor) "Oh!! I've found my heard!! Thank goodness!!!" (relief icon needed about now :D).
It seems to me, growing up in an abusive environment left me ignorant in many of the departments of communication.....understanding/knowing unspoken rules being one of those. I doubt my manners are as good as they could be and I feel like I've always got to be careful in social situations...to observe and do what others are doing (if it seems ok, that is). I feel a bit inadequate, I guess, and I'll have to keep learning.
But Plucky's point about most people, (which makes her head queen water buffalo today in my book!! :D):
...most people out there have weak spots and insecurities and are not sure how to conduct themselves. That the ones who don't, are frequently bullies and such.
...is quite validating and true I bet! People, as far as I can see, aren't thaaaaat picky/demanding of perfection so much as just possibly hoping for consideration (the golden.....platinum rule discussion...I agree).
Being able to laugh at myself has certainly helped me, when I think I've screwed up, along with saying so, (and sometimes finding out my worries were for nothing.....I'm ok....I did ok!! Hee Haw!!!).
You being concerned with not keeping people on the phone for too long and letting/wanting them to set the time limit makes me think maybe you don't go around tramping all over people's boundaries, Ceemee. You may feel inadequate about the unspoken rules but you might also be doing ok (heehaw for you!!) and not really know it?
Also, are you sure it's all your fault about the way men/women react to you? Is it possible you've just run into the wrong men/women? (ones who are not interested in friendship, in a brotherly/sisterly fashion?). It does take two to tango doesn't it?
Are you sending the wrong messages or are they just not hearing you???
Are they possibly...tramping on your boundaries (by ignoring what you are trying to communicate)???
:D Sela
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I too feel like a space alien who is still catching up learning social rules of behavior...
Different groups have different etiquettes. I move between very different social groups, and my work environment is something altogether different. To some friends I am a 'den mother' or therapist-figure, and when I'm in that role I work very hard to maintain my boundaries while listening and giving feedback...
In the past much of my social behavior was determined by my sense of safety. Now things have progressed to, what is healthy for me? Who is healthy for me to be around socially? How do I deal with people whose communication behaviors trigger fight-or-flight response in me, when I must deal with them (at work, for example)?
I also work hard to NOT TAKE IT PERSONALLY. Most people have lots of stuff going on in their lives. They disappear and reappear from my radar for all sorts of reasons, and very little of it has anything to do with me...This can be hard, because my Nparents treated me like I was invisible, or an obstacle, or a problem to be solved much of the time. So this is a background assumption of how other people see me.
That's the thing that interferes with many of my relationships, really, is how my parents trained me to see myself - as a problem, an obstacle, or unimportant/invisible.
I remind myself that I give to others that which I really want the most for myself - attentive listening, supportiveness, and understanding (N-supply?!!). My task becomes giving myself the time and energy to listen to what I want and need at any given time.
Andromeda
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Hi CeeMee,
This is your herd speaking.
Maybe you are actually giving off some kind of "I will not refuse" message. I had this problem for a long time with men, and now I have the opposite. Which is fine with me!
Some men have been taught that they should go ahead and do whatever a woman will let them do. So if they do not see clear evidence of boundaries, and things are being left to them, they just keep going until they hit a brick wall. It's a habit.
Maybe just in this area it would pay to change some things. You can practice what a friend of mine called the LOOK. I was doing it unconsciously to threatening people who seemed ready to approach, while she sat there like a little deer baby ready to be eaten. This friend had major boundary issues. She had none at all.
Just think of something really maddening. Like the last time you had to renew your driving permit. Or were kept waiting for hours by a doctor or hairdresser. Feel that feeling. Then practice it randomly until you get a good reason to use it.
If the person is not a stranger, you stil need to indicate that there are boundaries around your person. Not everyone will assume that there are or respect them if they are not pointed out. The very first time the guy says anything that is not in line with your concept of the relationship, respond then. You can say, " excuse me?" or "I don't think so" or "You're kidding, right?". Have a phrase ready, even if it is not exactly right in the context, your message will get across. If it was a gesture, such as a touch, move away. look pointedly at his hand or offending body part, or take your hand and remove his hand. Make eye contact while you do it, so he is clear that it is not to be tried again. If it is a look, for example he is looking at some part of your body, say "hey! I'm up here" or "is there something on my shirt? I noticed you were looking at my blouse".
Do not let it pass or think that it is your fault if the guy tries something with you. It happens all the time, it's not because you are a buffalo. It's because you are an attractive woman. So just take it in your stride and reject the advance firmly but don't make a big deal out of it.
You have the right to reject any attention. You do not have to have a good reason. You belong to you, and you get to decide who gets access. Period. You do not have to be nice to everyone, or anyone for that matter. You do not have to be friends with everyone, or anyone. Not everyone is good enough to be nice to. Not everyone will be a good friend to you. Not everyone deserves a chance. Only a portion of the people out there are people that you should pay attention to or be nice to. Not all.
Hope this is helpful somehow.
Plucky, of the buffalo people
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Hi guys,
I really think all this concern about how long to stay on the phone and what to wear or say at just what time is usually self imposed.
Most normal people will make all sorts of allowances as long as you treat them kindly and with respect.
I'll bet you're fretting over this stuff far more than the people you are interacting with. You're probably seeing faux pas where others are seeing nothing.
Normal, decent people will return kindness with kindness.
Ns won't, but the unspoken etiquette of Ns and weirdos should be of no concern as they are self serving traps.
That's why this so called platinum rule is such a strange idea. If we apply it to Ns then we become their slaves. It also can feed the worst parts of human nature in even normal people we interact with.
I think the Golden Rule works just fine. It doesn't say we are to treat others as we treat ourselves but that we are to treat others as we wish to be treated . Now people who lack boundaries and mistreat themselves don't generally wish to be treated that way. They want respect and kindness also.
People put up with all sorts of idiosyncracies in others all the time. That in fact is one of the primary rules of social interaction. I can get off the phone with someone who talked my ear off for an hour and a half and think that the person is great but they have a tendency to jabber. I can get off the phone with somebody who talks precisely the right length of time and think they are a total jerk. Its the content of the conversation not the precise timing of it that counts. If you are of good will and don't worry about your 'performance' you will do fine. If you're not of good will it doesn't matter if you went to finishing school, no one will like you.
mud
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how'd you get so smart, mud?
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Thanks for those pointers Portia and Plucky.
I'll put them on a post it by the phone next time I challenge myself to make a "just calling to see how you are doing" phone call. I have thought about Hoppy's idea and think it is actually a good exercise after all to allocate a predetermined amount of time. I'm starting with 10 minutes for the call. I'll include Mud's suggestion to focus more on the content and worry less about the time though. (I was relieved to hear that the time frame you suggested Portia was two minutes to two hours. I've done both). This is my plan and I'll let you know how it goes.
What happens to you on the phone?
Well it all depends on who I am talking to. Truthfully, it is RARE that I am ever on the phone, so when I finally do make a call or receive a call it is somewhat anxiety producing. When I am receiving the call, there is less burden on me because I figure they called and for a reason. Once the matter is addressed, that is my cue that the conversation will begin winding down. I'll usually let the other person bring the conversation to a close unless I have something pressing to take care of and let them know.
When I initiate the call, that is where the anxiety kicks in and if the call has the only purpose of seeing how the other person is doing, then I am inept at knowing when to draw it to a close. I am concerned about whether she has expressed fully, if she wants to talk more, whether she expects me to reciprocate with information, does she need to go and hopes I will close it and so on and so forth.
Plucky wrote"
"You have the right to reject any attention. You do not have to have a good reason."
"You belong to you, and you get to decide who gets access. Period."
" You do not have to be nice to everyone, or anyone for that matter."
"You do not have to be friends with everyone, or anyone."
"Not everyone is good enough to be nice to."
" Not everyone will be a good friend to you."
"Not everyone deserves a chance."
"Only a portion of the people out there are people that you should pay attention to or be nice to. Not all."
Wow, wow, wow, Plucky. I'm still digesting all this. I am really going to have to think about this. Is this all true????? Does this apply to everyone or just male friends?
The part that I don't have to think about and do feel agreement with is that not everyone will be a good friend. My experience has validated that statement. The rest catches me by surprise. I have gone from being a very isolated, anxious and angry person when I was chronically depressed, to someone who has opened up and tried to welcome people in. I enjoy being around people and discovering who they are. I guess unless someone is downright rude or offensive (which is rarely the case) I am generally very open to people. Maybe too open is the problem. Maybe I do give off the vibe that "I will not refuse."
This maybe an area I need to work on. When I was depressed, I was a very tough person who always came out swinging. Now that the bulk of the fear is gone, while I can still throw a very good punch when needed, I usually wait for a punch to be thrown first and I am fairly forgiving of mildly aggressive gestures.
Thanks Plucky for the feedback. It is helpful. I am interested in what others think about this list of "rights."
CeeMee
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Hi Sela,
Welcome to the herd!
Sela wrote:
Also, are you sure it's all your fault about the way men/women react to you? Is it possible you've just run into the wrong men/women? (ones who are not interested in friendship, in a brotherly/sisterly fashion?). It does take two to tango doesn't it?
I think there is a LOT of truth to this. My experience has not been good in terms of the numbers of people out there looking for genuine friendship. When I first moved to the community that I live in, I learned this lesson VERY quickly. After making efforts to establish rapport with a couple or another person, it almost ALWAYS turned out that they were either trying to get us to join their church or sell us something. There was always some Pampered Chef, Home Interiors or some other money making venture that my participation was required for. Once it was clear that I wasn't interested in their church or buying anything, the relationships evaporated. I'm not saying all people are this way but my experience is more than half are and the rest are too busy for relationships. That leaves very few people left. Like trying to find a needle in a haystack.
Thanks Sela, I am examining this boundaries issues. I never thought I had a problem but now I am wondering. My boundaries with my family are very clear but I have to put some thought about what boundaries do exist when dealing with new people, friends, acquaintances, co-workers.
CeeMee
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Andromeda, thanks for writing back.
Andromeda wrote:
"Different groups have different etiquettes. I move between very different social groups, and my work environment is something altogether different."
I think this is VERY true and like you, I do move between groups quite a bit.
"In the past much of my social behavior was determined by my sense of safety."
What was the basis for knowing something was safe? Did you find that you needed to be voiceless or censored to feel safe?
"How do I deal with people whose communication behaviors trigger fight-or-flight response in me, when I must deal with them (at work, for example)?"
Can you give some subtle examples of what might trigger a fight or flight response in you at work or in your social arena?
"I also work hard to NOT TAKE IT PERSONALLY
This can be hard, because my Nparents treated me like I was invisible, or an obstacle, or a problem to be solved much of the time. So this is a background assumption of how other people see me."
Yes, yes, yes, there may be a similar underlying theme in me but I find that much of that came from work. I am definitely invisible at work and a problem too and that contributes to my constant self examination. Am I a factor, am I not a factor, am I causing problems, am I not causing problems. Everything becomes a question. I guess I don't see myself all that clearly outside of how I've been negatively defined by others. I carry that confusion with me every where I go now.
I am seriously thinking about quitting my job. I've been there over 15 years and it is time to move on while there is something of myself to salvage. Wow Andromeda, thank you. Your post has really touched on something.
"- attentive listening, supportiveness, and understanding (N-supply?!!)."
Are you saying here that these things can be N supply when we give them in hopes of receiving them? I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand.
CeeMee
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Hi Mud and thanks for your reply.
Mud wrote"
"I really think all this concern about how long to stay on the phone and what to wear or say at just what time is usually self imposed."
The concern IS self imposed, but I do believe that there are unspoken rules and to ignore them can have negative consequences.
"Most normal people will make all sorts of allowances as long as you treat them kindly and with respect."
This is hard to apply unless we all have the same definition of "normal" and "respect" My experience dealing with a WIDE diversity of people is that "respect" can be interpreted differently. This is where the platinum rule becomes important. I agree that allowances are expected but we still need to know what the starting point is.
"Normal, decent people will return kindness with kindness.
Ns won't, but the unspoken etiquette of Ns and weirdos should be of no concern as they are self serving traps."
I'm not sure I know what defines a "weirdo," and I don't want to fall into the trap of assuming that the rules that I utilize are the only ones to be acknowledged or applied and that rules outside of my book belong to "weirdos" and N's. There are
people who are just different from me and I want to know their rules also.
"That's why this so called platinum rule is such a strange idea. If we apply it to Ns then we become their slaves. It also can feed the worst parts of human nature in even normal people we interact with."
I respect everyone's right to use any rule they choose and I don't find either rule strange. It is just a matter of choice. In the worst case scenario as you have posed, I suppose we could also feed the worst parts of human nature applying the Golden Rule. That would mean treating people the way I wish to be treated and that could mean MY worst wishes and desires. As humans we all have good and bad desires.
Why I prefer the Platinum Rule to the Golden Rule is because it requires me to go outside of myself and acknowledge that people may want to be treated different from the way I think they should be treated. I think SF gave a great example of introvert vs. extravert. It really forces us to find out more about each other as individuals and to proceed with caution.
"People put up with all sorts of idiosyncracies in others all the time."
Wow, that hasn't been my experience at all. I find that most people are quite intolerant of people exhibiting difference or idiosyncracies. Children start out young learning to fit into the mold or be marginalized. The primary rule for social interaction is learn the rules and fit in or else. At least that's been my experience.
The one thing I can agree with you on Mud (and I didn't mean to pick apart your whole post like this but I think we are coming from two different perspectives) is that content is important as is good will. We are in agreement there, but I also think knowing the unspoken rules is important too.
CeeMee
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Hi CeeMee,
What's popping out to me is your excruciating carefulness. You are admirably but VERY concerned with being considerate, fair, inclusive, non-judgmental, noninvasive, nonpresumptuous, sensitive, clear, correct, and so on.
I think the missing piece is: are you making any room for yourself to NOT know what is the perfect response at all times. Are you allowed to make mistakes? (I vote Yes, you are!)
I think if you added CEEMEE to this list of human beings to whom you extend such great (and kind) caring...and decide that you, too, deserve the courtesy and sensitivity of acknowledging your own fallibility and humanness, maybe you could be just a little less severe with yourself??
Would be lovely to think of you heaving a huge, relaxed sigh. Giving yourself a break.
You do deserve this.
You are doing just fine.
You are allowed to flub it.
Everybody does, in one way or another...you are not singular in your sense of not knowing.
It's okay not to know. Your intention is good even if you're imperfect.
All the moreso...
Hugs,
Hopalong
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Thanks Hoppy. I've often been told I am too hard on myself.
I will cut myself some slack.
How's your job coming?
It is 3 am and I see you and I are both posting at this ungodly hour. I can't sleep.
Thinking too much about work. I really need time off to care for myself and then to find a new job.
It is scary though. Haven't been on an interview in over fifteen years. Confidence isn't all that high right now. Time off might help with that.
CeeMee
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Job fear sure will keep you awake. Thanks for asking.
I'm surviving for now but the rug has been yanked from under me so I no longer take pleasure in the work.
My own responsibility is driving me to do a good job but I have zero faith that anyone here cares what happens to me.
It's kept me awake many hours and also triggered depression, so I'm fighting the same battle to take care of myself.
I am weary.
Met with an acquaintance who's a big N but I always was able to enjoy his intelligence anyway. He started talking about finding me a job in his company, and all of a sudden I felt there was a crocodile looking out from his eyes. I mean, I've been safe and comfortable as friends, since there was no power relationship...but when I caught that look (it seemed to be about the power he would have over me if he were to do me that favor) I went home and hid under the covers.
I think the best solution is to lie low, do the best I can here, and just plod forward. I've taken anxiety to such an extreme that I can't keep it up and keep functioning. If it takes meds, for a while, so be it.
Bah humbug. On the bright side, my daughter, who dropped out of school and went completely off the rails after her father died a few years ago...is graduating from college (by the skin of her teeth) Friday night. So I'm going to spend the wknd with her. She suffered a lot and this achievment was hard won. So that is a wonderful thing.
Back at it but thanks for asking!
Be nice to yourself.
Hopalong
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Hi Ceemee and all:
I am definitely invisible at work and a problem too and that contributes to my constant self examination. Am I a factor, am I not a factor, am I causing problems, am I not causing problems. Everything becomes a question. I guess I don't see myself all that clearly outside of how I've been negatively defined by others. I carry that confusion with me every where I go now.
I am seriously thinking about quitting my job. I've been there over 15 years and it is time to move on while there is something of myself to salvage.
Since you feel invisible at work and confused about what role you are/are not having in "causing problems" and "everything becomes a question"..........I don't imagine you feel very comfortable there, at all, and it makes sense that you want to get away and salvage what's left of yourself. That's a good thing!!
Just so I can go over there and give them a piece of my mind,( :shock:) please tell:
Who is defining you negatively? (Is this person the body of knowledge of the universe or what?? Who says what they say/think/imply is correct?)
What are they saying? (based on fact or opinion, judgement or some need to feel superior?? Specifically....what do they say that is negative to/about you and how much reality is it based on?)
What makes them a better judge of you than you? (and how much of this negative defining is really necessary....in order for you to carry on your duties properly at your job?? Maybe there are other possible motives for putting you down???)
Why do you believe them? (What makes this person/these people so worthy of your trust? Why do you give them more power over defining you than you have?)
(No insult indended Ceemee.....just stuff for you to consider. Sometimes we take in what others say without even considering this stuff and maybe it would help to do so sometimes?? Hope it helps a little).
Anyone who respects you and wishes to help you along the way to success will offer constructive ideas, in a kind way to you, rather than criticize or put you down or define you in a negative way. That's my opinion, anyway (as a matter of fact...as soon as people start defining other people now adays.......it often sets my alarms off.... as it can be a BIG N behaviour :shock: :shock: :x).
I really need time off to care for myself and then to find a new job.
I'm glad you are thinking of doing this for you! Good for you!!
Haven't been on an interview in over fifteen years. Confidence isn't all that high right now.
Would reading up on interview techniques, resume writing, etc and doing some affirmations, along with picturing yourself in a job where you feel appreciated and respected.......help? Maybe take account of the good in you, Ceemee, your attributes? Discard whatever these definers have tried to make you believe?
You don't have to take their messages to heart.
Conscientious people measure themselves and are not out to define others as some how less, smaller, lower.
:D Sela
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Conscientious people measure themselves and are not out to define others as some how less, smaller, lower.
Thank you, Sela.
Hopalong
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Hi CeeMee,
Haven't got much time so I'll just reply to a couple of things you said.
In the worst case scenario as you have posed, I suppose we could also feed the worst parts of human nature applying the Golden Rule. That would mean treating people the way I wish to be treated and that could mean MY worst wishes and desires. As humans we all have good and bad desires.
Do you wish to be harmed or abused? Do you not wish to be treated with kindness and respect? Other than some truly disturbed people is that not how everyone wants to be treated?
Humans do indeed have some very foul desires but they are usually directed outward and even when directed inward are seldom if ever how a person truly wishes to be treated by others.
If we're talking about pathological people then lets face it there really aren't many rules. I didn't think you were referring to them. I assumed you meant interpersonal relationships with the large body of people who fall into that nebulous definition of normal, as in not total nutbars who are impossible to deal with.
Wow, that hasn't been my experience at all. I find that most people are quite intolerant of people exhibiting difference or idiosyncracies. Children start out young learning to fit into the mold or be marginalized. The primary rule for social interaction is learn the rules and fit in or else. At least that's been my experience.
Well I thought we were talking about things like talking too long on the phone and which side the salad fork goes on, etc, not non conformists who intentionally depart from social norms. Its been my experience that those idiocyncracies which are frowned upon most by societies are usually affected for precisely that reason. Certainly some non conformists don't conform because they can't or simply because they enjoy what they do regardless of its shock value. But once again I didn't think that's what we were talking about.
After all there' a bit of a difference between not knowing when to hang up and making prank phone calls.
Most people will tolerate an awkward silence pretty well, but they can get a little peeved being asked if they have Prince Albert in a can.
mud
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Hi Mud,
Just some thoughts about your reply.
I would agree with you that people don't want to be abused or harmed, but when we get into words like "respect" what exactly are we talking about in terms of behaviors. Is there one set of behaviors that apply to everyone. I don't think so. What I may think is respectful the another person may not be from their perspective. I need to learn more and understand more about what respect means outside of my definition.
Mud wrote:
"If we're talking about pathological people then lets face it there really aren't many rules. I didn't think you were referring to them. I assumed you meant interpersonal relationships with the large body of people who fall into that nebulous definition of normal, as in not total nutbars who are impossible to deal with."
I believe it was you Mud who took the discussion in that direction with this comment in your previous post:
"That's why this so called platinum rule is such a strange idea. If we apply it to Ns then we become their slaves. It also can feed the worst parts of human nature in even normal people we interact with."
My only reason to go there was to follow you and point out that the Golden Rule could be equally misapplied.
Mud wrote:
"Well I thought we were talking about things like talking too long on the phone and which side the salad fork goes on, etc, not non conformists who intentionally depart from social norms. Its been my experience that those idiocyncracies which are frowned upon most by societies are usually affected for precisely that reason.
Wow Mud, you're all over the place with this one. We were talking about phone norms, then you took the conversation to "the worst parts of human nature," "weirdos" and Ns and now you've taken it to "non-conformists" Do you see some correlation between all of the above? Who/what else falls outside your definition of normal? Do people "different" from you fall outside your definition of normal?
The point of my post was simply to find out how other folks behaved on the phone and to perhaps pick up some pointers on how they read unspoken rules.
Mud wrote:
"Most people will tolerate an awkward silence pretty well, but they can get a little peeved being asked if they have Prince Albert in a can."
I'll assume it is meant to be a joke to take the edge off, but sorry I don't get the Prince Albert in a can part....
Is that normal?
CeeMee
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You guys,
don't fight!
You're on the same side!
Plucky
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Yes SF. I agree that there probably are different rules or preferences depending on whether one is introverted or extraverted. I'm trying to learn some of them. If
I called you on the phone after a long time. How long of a conversation would be sufficient? What would be the customary questions for you? Would you expect me to know when you wanted to go? Would you expect to be the one to signal when it was time to go or should the conversation come to a natural close? If so, how?
CeeMee
Didn't answer your questions CeeMee. Was too depressed and sad to get on here much.
However I did find a book I posted on the What Helps Forum, An Adult Child's Guide to What's "Normal". It has helped ideas for nearly every type of situation and relationship.
This is what I wrote and didn't post because I couldn't function well enough to do it:
This actually happened to me in person with people at a church I used to attend. It had been two years since I seen anyone. For me, it didn't feel right to have these people act as if they now knew me. That for me was a boundary violation. BTW I posted this a while back on this forum.
I think it would depend on the length of time between phone conversations, the depth and length of the relationship, its current state - are we close?
I think the conversation would come to a natural close. Saying that, I don't know if would be able to tell when there is a natural close with all people. Most people it is very evident. Some it is vague. Again, back to the more you know yourself, the more easily you would know when to end the conversation. It would come down to boundary issues, time constraints, voice inflection, a sense that the conversation is winding down, a drifting off subject matter or the person might announce the end.
As for the depth of the conversation I think I would leave that up to the person the receiving end.
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Hiya :D
CeeMee:
I guess I don't see myself all that clearly outside of how I've been negatively defined by others. I carry that confusion with me every where I go now.
In some ways I look back and think I’ve been several different people; I’ve certainly behaved like different personalities. I can see now how they fit together, have been produced by certain sets of circumstances and how I couldn’t have been other than I was. I made lots of ‘mistakes’.
Who am I? I’m only just beginning to see myself anywhere near clearly (I hope it’s clear anyway). I’m only just now (age 44) making sense of who I became, given the genes and environment I’ve lived in. Who am I? The (current) result of all my experiences and thoughts. I'll be different tomorrow.
I understand where I’ve come from and that allows me to see why I am like I am. It doesn’t excuse all the truly bad things I’ve done (hurt myself, hurt other people) but it does give me an understanding of why. And it falls into place. There are always reasons.
A mistake is not a person, it is an event.
I do believe that there are unspoken rules and to ignore them can have negative consequences.
If rules are unspoken, we don’t know what they are. Clear, honest communication could probably solve half the world’s troubles! I can’t ignore rules I don’t know about can I? I need to know them to properly ignore them, in the sense of flouting the rules, or breaking them.
Here’s an example. I presume that it would be a complete no-no to post a thread directly to Dr G here, because it would be unethical for him to give his professional opinion directly to some anonymous person. But I don’t know that. Is that an unspoken rule I’ve imposed upon myself? Maybe. Would I be willing to test it? Maybe. But I kind of feel that this board exists because of Dr G and it’s unspoken that we don’t ask too much. Why? I wonder how many people would agree with me here. And yet it’s all unspoken. I could ask Dr G! Obtain the answer from him. Why not? I think we often accept 'rules' that are not really rules at all.
All that last paragraph is about unspoken rules and self-imposed rules. Hitler said “What good fortune for those in power that people do not think.” It takes a lack of fear to question the unspoken rules, to ask for clarification, to ask ‘what really happened to me then?’. Many people are too frightened to ask those questions. Some of us simply cannot live with ourselves until we find our own answers. The short-term consequences can appear incredibly negative! Life isn't easy.
There’s keeping up the normal, ordinary, everyday status quo that drives some of us crazy, or digging up the ‘hurtful’, ‘dangerous’ (to whom?) truth which will free our minds.
Hiya Mud:
Do you wish to be harmed or abused? Do you not wish to be treated with kindness and respect? Other than some truly disturbed people is that not how everyone wants to be treated?
Nope! I wanted to be harmed and abused, once. Was I truly disturbed? Not enough to be locked up. Lots of folks are like that. Look at the kids who go out every Friday and Saturday night and drink until they throw up and pass out on the streets. They’re abusing themselves. Do they really enjoy it? Nope. But they would say they do. I did similar things to try and escape the contents of my own head.
seldom if ever how a person truly wishes to be treated by others.
I didn’t know how I truly wanted to be treated. I had no idea. When you're brought up by people who do not love you, you have no benchmark, no reference points. This is why women stay with men who beat them up – they don’t know any different. They think violence is love. I’m still learning to hug in a healthy way! It often feels soooooo unnatural.
non conformists who intentionally depart from social norms
Is that me?? I didn’t do it intentionally when I was five years old. I just didn’t know what to do to fit in. And I didn’t want to fit in! I thought most other five year olds were complete animals and I was scared of them.
Is the Prince Albert thing very rude???? It could be! :shock: :D :D pleeease explain before my mind comes up with something very weird indeed...... :? :P whoops, too late :D :D
with that in mind, better go :arrow:
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Hi CeeMee and Portia,
Maybe I'm dating myself with the Prince Albert in a can thing. It was an idiotic phone prank people used to play on tobacco shop owners. Prince Albert was a brand of tobacco. If the shop owner said yes then the dope calling him up, told him to let him out of the can. It was a mindless, harmless prank but I imagine fairly annoying after awhile. I used it as an example of intentional aggravating behavior as opposed to mere social naivete.
Portia, you said you didn't conform unintentionally and then in the same sentence said you didn't want to conform. I can't reconcile those two statements.
In any event I said there are some people who don't conform merely to shock. There are others who can't conform. And there is yet a third group who choose not to conform, not to shock or because they are unable, but merely because they enjoy their non conformity. Surely there is nothing in any of those statements to offend anyone.
Now no offense, but if you wished to be harmed and abused to escape the contents of your own head then you were not in a healthy place. Perhaps 'truly disturbed' was a poor choice of words. How about 'relatively unhealthy' instead. My point was most people do not wish to be harmed.
CeeMee,
What I meant by 'respect' was not harming or abusing someone else.
I only brought up 'Ns and weirdos' to point out that the social cues you originally wrote about don't work with them and that in my opinion the Platinum Rule left us more vulnerable to their manipulations than the Golden Rule.
'Weirdo' by the way was also a very imprecise term I used. I meant by it, other people as disordered as NPDers; not merely non conformists or idiocyncracies.
Why the apparent hostility? I made no unkind remarks about you.
Perhaps we can find some common ground. By 'normal' I mean those people who are basically of good will, who simply try to live their lives without causing others too much harm. A wealthy, well groomed man in a gray flannel suit might very well fall well outside of that definition of normal. A pierced and tatooed punk rocker might very well fall within it.
Here is a pointer that can be applied to phone conversations; since I have apparently inadvertantly aggravated you we have probably been on the 'phone' too long.
mud
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Hiya Mud, thanks for the reply
Portia, you said you didn't conform unintentionally and then in the same sentence said you didn't want to conform. I can't reconcile those two statements.
Well I didn’t fit in at 5 because I didn’t react like the other kids (or that’s what I saw at the time). When I saw what the other kids did, I didn’t then want to fit in. I didn’t want to be like them – that’s how it seemed to me at 5. I guess I wasn’t being very discerning in my thinking but that was a long time ago! I think I could have conformed and joined the group, if I had been scared enough of being excluded. But I wasn’t scared of that, I was scared of being included. I stayed apart from the group because I didn’t like what I saw. I still do that. It’s just an introvert preference. I’m not unable to join, I’m not trying to shock and I’m not enjoying my non-conformity as such: I just like my own company and my own thoughts. It’s about me, not about what others think of me. Does that make sense? Conformity sometimes gives me the creeps – feelings of being controlled, imposed upon etc etc. I’m an introvert! I don’t live for relationships with other people.
About being harmed and abused, yep I agree it’s unhealthy, but I disagree about the general norm – I think a lot of people (I don’t know if it’s the majority, but there seem to me to be a lot) are in unhealthy places, just like I was until only a few years ago. Let’s face it, I was pretty unhealthy when I joined this board. That’s why I joined the board – I had just realised I was unhealthy!
Haha :D I’m not sure today just how healthy I am either! Only partly joking, I hope you know I’m not annoyed/upset/angry/offended/pick-a-term. I’m just yakking as usual, trying to see different perspectives at once. Take care, P
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Hi Portia,
I know you're not annoyed/upset etc. And I wasn't trying to annoy anyone, but I often do without even trying. :?
And I surely didn't mean to criticise anyone for not being 'normal' or for not conforming.
I'm afraid I'm not too conforming to modern society myself.
I’m not enjoying my non-conformity as such: I just like my own company and my own thoughts
Well that's what I meant. Not conforming is simply how some people are. It has nothing to do with what others think, merely a personal preference. Just about everyone does to some extent.
Anyway as CeeMee has said we seem to be straying far afield from phone etiquette and and such.
Take care as well.
mud
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Here's my amateur theory to toss in the pot...
(don't worry anybody, even feeling hurt or offended can sometimes be helpful...it can be a clue to where some hurt is inside ourselves that we need to pay attention to, or a boundary issue, or something). We can't EVER control what anyone else says or intends and all we can do is ponder our reactions to it...or be curious and ask more questions...it's all just information!
Anyhoo, my little theory is: it's words. Some of the ones that appeared I think are unintentional zingers. Not necessarily intended to arrive that way, but in some sensitive ears (like mine) they trigger some little psycho-cilia that cause an emotional cringe.
Examples: normal, abnormal, healthy, unhealthy, weirdo, nonconformist.
They're just so...good/bad, in/out, right/wrong...you know?
I declare war (just a little ineffectual war) on "label-type" words that overlook the enormous subtletly and dignity of every person. I have been, in no particular order: an outcast, a neurotic, unhealthy, codependent, nonconformist, a weirdo, marching to a drummer that wasn't even in within 10 miles of the parade... I could go on. And on.
Believe it or not, despite its ENORMOUS value to me...sometimes I even want to set aside the word "narcissist". Only temporarily though, because that one's just about as helpful as "armed robber"--it needs to be noticed. Now and then though, I'm relieved when I can think of a N-person and have a moment when I'm just aware of some other attribute they have that's not that destructive illness.
I think words when they're piled up to describe layers of an individual are great. And I don't even care about all those above applied to myself, any more. But I know at times I have. And likely will again. It depends on how strong/fragile/defended/rested/pain-free/worried/peaceful I am at the moment. But some generalizations about people do carry that capacity to zing.
Words are just our shorthand for ideas we're trying to get out. No way to use them without falling short. But it's good to keep tossing them all around. And now and then pick them up and look at them really closely.
I think that's what everyone was trying to do here.
(And sure enough you'll catch me doing something similar with some billboard-word...let me know!)
Likely a very strange post, but I crawl around inside words doing poems, a happy obsession.
Pax,
Hopalong
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I honestly am not trying to be a wise ass but how can we communicate if we cannot label behaviors and attributes or even people?
The typical post would look something like this wouldn't it;
There are some beings who may or may not be called 'people' who behave in no particular way and which no one can really identify. Sometimes they may or may not interact with other what we might call 'people' in ways which are not subject to any particular description, but i'm sure you understand what i mean when I say its all very interesting. Some of these people may or may not cause other people a great deal of distress, depending on how you define distress, but there is really no way of knowing what may or may not have caused it because to try might lead to a label which would be really inappropriate.
I don't like inaccurate labels and I'm often guilty of insufficiently defining the labels I use, but how can we function or communicate without them? I mean to say, if someone objects to the use of labels, they usually have no problem labeling the labeller as intolerant or judgemental, right? Just about everybody uses labels just about all the time. Sometimes they cut kind of close to the bone, then we notice them and object because somebody made us uncomfortable.
Is there a person here who can go back through their own posts and not find more labels than there are in their underwear drawer?
mud
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Mudpup,
You're a goof, a wise wiseass.
Don't worry--I really wasn't trying to label you "mean" or judgmental...
I was just noticing how some of those particular ones would've hooked me too.
You're right it's IMPOSSIBLE to do a perfect job...words ARE labels and all we have to communicate with.
It's a hard art but a wonderful one and I'm glad you're out here practicing with the rest of us.
Yer weirdo pal,
Hopalong
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All I know is I better hurry up and do my laundry. :shock:
And .......
I'm going to stop making those prank phone calls asking people if their fridge is running.....
(and advising them to go and catch it, when they answer: "yes").
:oops:
:D Sela
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Hiya Mud
And I surely didn't mean to criticise anyone for not being 'normal' or for not conforming. I'm afraid I'm not too conforming to modern society myself.
I’m glad you’re not too conforming. Balance is good :D
Anyway as CeeMee has said we seem to be straying far afield from phone etiquette and and such.
Okay. Back to phone etiquette in a mo’ , but two things:
Mud did you guess what I thought the Prince Albert was about? If not, best not ask. :shock:
Hi Hopalong
Believe it or not, despite its ENORMOUS value to me...sometimes I even want to set aside the word "narcissist". Only temporarily though, because that one's just about as helpful as "armed robber"--it needs to be noticed. Now and then though, I'm relieved when I can think of a N-person and have a moment when I'm just aware of some other attribute they have that's not that destructive illness.
Love it! :D And I agree totally. I get hung up on words too. I have trouble doing some psych tests for that reason (pick the two words you are most like – they have me in brain spirals sometimes). I used to grit my teeth when people would say “You’re crazy” simply because I didn’t agree with their way of thinking. Not as bad as “you’re evil” though. That’s just abuse. Anyway;
Phone etiquette
Hi CeeMee, back to the subject.
It is not acceptable to phone your daughter at 12.30 am (yes, after midnight) on a week day to ask if your gift to her has arrived in the post. Not acceptable :x etiquette! Not even a mildly disguised attempt to grab attention. This was last night/this morning and I was not happy! Mind you, having an answering machine does help, but nevertheless, it is something no-one does unless there’s a damn emergency. This was not an emergency! Except to those people who are suffering a lack of attention in their lives. Oooooops. Sorry. Getting carried away there! Okay. Enough. Has any of this thread helped CeeMee?
Sela: you reminded me of an old Spike Milligan/Goons joke:
Harry: “You better put the dog out.”
Spike: “Why, is it on fire?”
*Groan*
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"In the past much of my social behavior was determined by my sense of safety."
What was the basis for knowing something was safe? Did you find that you needed to be voiceless or censored to feel safe?
Listening to my gut instinct, more than anything else. Listening to my own voice inside myself, if I didn't feel comfortable saying it out loud. Closely observing people, but again, following my own instinct more than anything.
"How do I deal with people whose communication behaviors trigger fight-or-flight response in me, when I must deal with them (at work, for example)?"
Can you give some subtle examples of what might trigger a fight or flight response in you at work or in your social arena?
:lol:I work in a busy blood testing lab - we did over 98,000 tests in November 2005 alone. I'm always multitasking with WAAAAY too many things to do. One of the 'heavy hitters' at my job has a nasty habit of yelling at me, sharply, in an accusing tone of voice, assuming I screwed something up. (Co-workers validated my sense that this woman was singling me out). Never, but never, had I made the mistake. But, I'd be stuck in adrenalyned response, 'frozen' like a deer in headlights, for the next hour or two, mechanically going through the motions of doing my job and then getting the hell out of there when I was done.
Socially: this really messed up human being - semi-homeless abuse survivor, probably 23? - very good-looking - pulled the good old 'You've ever fallen in love at first sight?' thing on me. I froze. He had gotten my phone number prior to pulling this rabbit out of the hat. It took me ten days to get him out of my life...But I did. He also kissed me without asking or anything, just sortof did it (in a way that might have been considered 'romantic' from the movies)...all it did was freeze me.
I've recovered well in both situations: as I said about the boy, he's safely out of my life; and as for work, well, three weeks ago I finally talked to my supervisor about this old battle axe. Though the big boss of the lab didn't handle it perfectly, she must have ripped that lady a new one, because she doesn't aggressively interrupt my work anymore.
I guess I don't see myself all that clearly outside of how I've been negatively defined by others. I carry that confusion with me every where I go now.
This is really, really important, CeeMee...Sometimes I think that all the picking-on and controlled things I've lived through are written in me somewhere, like a code for other controllers to pick up on subconsciously. Like there's a target on me somewhere, that was put there by others when I was growing up. Its really strange.
I am seriously thinking about quitting my job. I've been there over 15 years and it is time to move on while there is something of myself to salvage. Wow Andromeda, thank you. Your post has really touched on something.
Get one of those Knock 'Em Dead resumee books. If there's one thing I've learned, I can always get another job. In fact, I'm in the process of trying to do that right now! :D
"- attentive listening, supportiveness, and understanding (N-supply?!!)."
Are you saying here that these things can be N supply when we give them in hopes of receiving them? I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand.
No, I mean this:
One of the things that makes me a great friend is my ability to listen. I can REALLY listen. I'm really accepting and a very gentle person, and complete strangers come up to me to unburden themselves sometimes. Like, a varsity high school football player coming to my booth at a diner to tell me about how hard it is to take care of his mother who's recovering from a double mastectomy, and cries. (His dad abandoned the family). Anyway...I think sometimes I developed that because its what I always wanted, someone to listen to me share my hopes, fears and dreams. I still have a hard time articulating my hopes, fears, dreams, everyday stuff because my parents never ever listened to them...would tell me that what I was experiencing was 'wrong' or 'strange' or whatever (I think I was their 'alien baby' :lol:) and not honor my expression of my experiences...So, I give what I most want to receive.
And I'm slowly learning to give myself that kind of listening.
My apologies for taking so long to return to the board. Its I guess not a habit yet? And also, since it nourishes me to come here, well, it's the last thing I'll do...(sad but true...not so good with the self-care am I...)
Andromeda