Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: arold_ite on December 07, 2005, 10:15:31 AM
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Hi, I found this site today and have been reading through the past posts for about an hour now. I only learned about NPD a few days ago when I picked up a book called ‘Who’s pulling your strings’. When I read the description of NPD, I recognised the behaviour of my wife immediately.
I’m a 41 year-old male. I have a successful career. I am divorced with two teenage children that I see every weekend.
I met my current wife four years ago. Our relationship was always volatile and very much ‘on again off again’. Even after we married, I always suspected that something wasn’t quite right with the relationship. I guess I confirmed this to myself by my unwillingness to take her to see any of my friends. I was always scared about how she would behave. Deep down, this fact alone should have told me that things were not as they should be but, I don’t know how to explain it, something got a hold of me and forced me to push these feelings and suspicions down.
I’ve always been a very strong, independent, successful man. I had my own business for a number of years and also ran a youth group for many years. I’ve never had problems making decisions or indeed acting on these decisions.
Over the past four years, I have become a mere shell of my former self. I am no longer a confident person, I find myself constantly thinking about the repercussions (from my wife) before making ANY decisions, I’ve stopped seeing my friends (because she doesn’t like it), I’m even seeing less of my children because she demands it.
I could go on and give hundreds of further examples but I’m guessing that you’ve probably heard them all before!
The reason for my post is to ask advice on two things:
1. How can I know for sure that my wife has NPD?
One of the posts that I read from this site had a list of about 100 different attributes of somebody with NPD. My wife matched nearly all of them. I’m a rational, educated man and deep down, given what I’ve researched on the subject (admittedly only over the past few days), it would appear to me that she definitely has this disorder. However, without clinical confirmation (which she would never agree to), how can I be sure?
I need to be sure so that I can know what I’m dealing with. If my wife is sick, I want to be able to help her. OK, I’ve also read that it’s impossible to try and help somebody with NPD because it can’t be cured, but at least if I know what I’m dealing with, maybe then I can attempt to learn what the best cause of action should be.
2. Should I leave her?
Leading on from the previous question, I finally built up the courage to walk out on my wife last week, seven days ago. I’ve been living out of a hotel ever since.
There was absolutely no communication between us for the first six days but last night she tried to call me. I know very well that if I let her talk to me, I will allow her to control me with her manipulative words, tone of voice, crying, shouting and emotional abuse, etc. So, I only agreed to communicate with her by text. This way, I can control the flow of communication and I can stop myself from being controlled. As you can imagine, this drove her absolutely mad but eventually, she did communicate with me through text messages.
She is telling me that she wants me to go back to her, she will change, she won’t try to control me, etc. Again, I know from bitter experience that these are just words. She never follows through with actions. She never does what she says she will do.
So, given that I firmly believe she has NPD. Given that I don’t believe she can ever change. Given that I’ve already made the first move (by walking out last week). Do you think I should try again, one last time (there have been many ‘last times’ over the past four years). Or, do you think I should just turn my phone off and leave the rest to the lawyers?
I appreciate that this is a lot to ask! But, maybe somebody out these could give me some general advice on what to do.
Like I said before, I’m no longer strong enough to make these types of decisions. I feel immensely guilty by walking out on her but at the same time, a very small part of me is excited to start my life again.
What should I do?
Thanks for listening.
Arold
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Arold,
I would say please, get yourself to a counselor immediately. A psychological counselor. This is my bias, but I have found that in some cases, religious counselors will advise people to make a marriage last long past the point of reason. Because to some of them, some of the time, the marriage concept is more important than the suffering of the people within it.
If you had children with your new wife, I'd hesitate and suggest trying to repair things. But as you don't, it certainly sounds as though you are better off out of it. If this woman triggers such anxiety in you that you literally cannot be exposed to the sound of her voice without losing what remains of your life force (sounds as though it took most of your battery power to get you to a hotel)...then yes, I will stick my neck out and say, don't go back to her.
But do go forward...to a counselor. Quick. You are feeling fragile enough that you need to be able to unload these feelings and process this fear in the presence of a caring and skillful professional. Those appointments can become an island of safety for you, and you need one.
And if you're wrong, or I'm wrong, then a person who knows what NPD is and is not (and make sure to ask them before you sign up, visit a few counselors for a "getting acquainted session" before you commit to workig with one) will be able to help you either way.
Move on with your life, but do it within a process of determination to learn what happened, what signs you overlooked, what it is in yourself that drew you to her in the first place, etc.
This can be a watershed in your life. A good one. IF you seize the chance to learn from it.
Good luck and keep us posted by posting!
Hopalong
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Thanks for the reply and the advice Hopalong, that sounds like a really good idea.
I'm in London. I don't suppose anybody knows where I can start looking? I've never seen a therapist or councillor before so I'm just not sure where to start?
Thanks again
Arold
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You're very welcome (and welcome to the board, by the way!)
I'm across the pond so will have to leave it to our UK-ers to help you with how-to-find-a-counselor piece.
Hang in,
Hopalong
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Hi there, trust your instincts about how you feel. You sound very wary about returning to her. You don't have to do anything right now. You can stay in the hotel for as long as you wish. No-one is forcing you to do anything about the relationship; you get to decide when you want to act, communicate etc.
Okay? Just maybe have some time alone to think about it yourself. And if you want therapy and are able to fund it, try searching under yell.com - or maybe you'd like to read up more on narcissism and how to recognise it and deal with it ? - the books recommended by Dr Grossman are available from Amazon.co.uk too.
Or even buy the January UK issue of Psychologies magazine (it's in the womens' magazines section but it's not just for women) featuring an article on therapy for men by this therapist (and no, I'm not anything to do with him): http://www.derekdraper.net/home.htm
Let us know what you decide!
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Thanks pGuest, great advice from this group again (so glad I found this group).
I've just ordered a couple of books from amazon, which I'm going to read before making any decisions.
I've also just booked an initial session with a therapist in London. I'm not sure what will come of this, but I have at least try.
I owe to myself, and I believe, to my wife, to TRY and do something. At least then, if I do walk away for good, I can say that I tried. Of course, I HAVE been trying for the last four years, so this will be my last ditch effort to try and understand this disorder and how I can deal with it.
Arold
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Another quick point: you mention handing things over to the lawyers – from what you’ve said so far, your wife sounds at the least unbalanced and possibly likely to become vengeful if she finds you want a divorce. Some people don’t play fair in these circumstances. Have you taken steps to protect your property and possessions if you do decide to start proceedings? You might also alert your children in case she tries to communicate with them.
A thought: you seem to have written why you’ve left her above – why would you give her another chance? Some guilt about leaving her? If a relationship isn’t working for one person, it isn’t working at all. It sounds as though this relationship isn’t working.
One of the links on that Derek draper site might be more helpful if you want to find someone to talk to – I’d go for http://www.bacp.co.uk/
oh just reading your new post .....
hey well done on booking that session! :D That's a big step (well i think so). Bravo.
I hope you'll come to find that you don't have to deal with this disorder. She does, not you. You're entitled to live your own life as you want to, not because you feel you owe anyone anything. Ask yourself - does she seriously try and understand you and your needs? Relationships work when they're reciprocal, not one-way. Let us know how you get on, if you want to. Good luck :D
P
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Hello arold:
Don't
Over the past four years, I have become a mere shell of my former self. I am no longer a confident person, I find myself constantly thinking about the repercussions (from my wife) before making ANY decisions, I’ve stopped seeing my friends (because she doesn’t like it), I’m even seeing less of my children because she demands it.
and
She is telling me that she wants me to go back to her, she will change, she won’t try to control me, etc. Again, I know from bitter experience that these are just words. She never follows through with actions. She never does what she says she will do.
pretty much give you the answers to your questions? You know what's best for you, and what you should do to keep yourself whole. I'm sorry that it's so painful. You seem like you're a genuinely caring person who really wants to understand and act on understanding, not just emotion. Narcissists prey on just such people. They view a desire to understand, to withhold judgment until the facts are in, as weakness. They view it as an opening for manipulation. I think you know all this, but you'll need to remind yourself of it many, many times as the drama unfolds. And with a narcissist, there is always drama.
I hope your therapy session goes well--and I applaud you for scheduling it so promptly--but even if it doesn't, please remember that you need this kind of support right now, and you deserve to keep looking until you find the person who can help you. I can't really add anything to the excellent comments of others, but I wanted you to know that we're all pulling for you, and this is a very good place to puzzle out some of the riddles of dealing with a narcissist (or any other type of controlling, manipulative person, for that matter).
Best of luck. I hope you will let us know how it goes.
daylily
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Hi Portia, thanks for the advice re: protecting my assets. I'm not sure how things work in the US, but as far as I understand it (please correct me if I'm wrong), in the UK, my wife is pretty much entitled to half of everything. My only real assets are the two properties that I own. I've already accepted that I'll have to sell these properties and split the profits with her. I guess my solicitor will advise me accordingly. However, if I DO decide to go ahead with the divorce, to be totally honest, I don't care how much it cost me just to make a clean break.
Thanks again
Arold
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Hi daylily, thanks for the reply.
They view a desire to understand, to withhold judgment until the facts are in, as weakness. They view it as an opening for manipulation. I think you know all this, but you'll need to remind yourself of it many, many times as the drama unfolds. And with a narcissist, there is always drama.
That's really good advice, I will make sure to remember this. Thanks.
I wanted you to know that we're all pulling for you, and this is a very good place to puzzle out some of the riddles of dealing with a narcissist
That's reassuring to me, thank you so much. I've been struggling with this for a long time now. To be honest, being a man, I've been too ashamed to open up to my friends about this so I've never had a chance to let anybody know how I feel. Thanks again
Arold
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Our relationship was always volatile and very much ‘on again off again’. Even after we married, I always suspected that something wasn’t quite right with the relationship. I guess I confirmed this to myself by my unwillingness to take her to see any of my friends. I was always scared about how she would behave. Deep down, this fact alone should have told me that things were not as they should be but, I don’t know how to explain it, something got a hold of me and forced me to push these feelings and suspicions down.
I think your own words make it very clear that you were happier and more yourself before you met your wife. I am fortunate enough not to have N's in my own family, but my in-law situation is close enough. My SIL is the worst N ever, and before I even knew about N's, I remember her husband having a really hard time with his friends and family. They said how much he changed. He found himself meeting his friends a lot by himself, without her, changing his friends and choosing the ones that his wife would approve of. And now she has brainwashed him into thinking that he cannot live without her, that without her he would be nothing, that she changed him for the better.
The N's in my life have made my life miserable. Life is too short to subject yourself to abuse.
And be kind to yourself. This sort of person is deceitful by nature. Not always maliciously. I mean, you kind of have to feel sorry for them. They are shells of a person, they are human shades, and they are very empty inside. They use you to fill themselves up. Don't get sucked in. It is very easy to. We've all been there.
How can you be sure that your wife is an N? Later on in your post you say you firmly believe she does. She's your wife. You know her. If you thinks she has it, she does, in my opinion. Don't second-guess yourself. And now that you've seen one, your gut will tell you right away when you've met another.
Should you leave? My SIL's husband tried to leave early in the situation, he came back, and she holds it against him. And he lets her. If you come back, she will never ever let you forget that you left, and she will punish you for the rest of your life, or as long as you let her. She also made it HIS fault that he left - that he was too spineless, not manly enough to stick things through. It is REALLY good that you are going to see a therapist. I am really happy for you.
Good luck. We'll be looking out for you. Glad you found the site.
- Stranded
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Hello Arold,
Welcome to our board. I sometimes feel funny that we so often offer support to people who want to leave their spouses. I am/was one of those idealistic people who think marriage and committment are serious ideals to uphold. How-ever, Ns are a whole different ballgame. If she quacks like a duck, and walks like a duck...run like the wind!
It sounds like you wish you could give yourself permission to leave her and not feel guilty, not feel like a bad person. And if you cannot give yourself permission, maybe you can find it here. But it needs to come from you. We all really hyper-understand the issues of N relationships and will give you support. But the permission needs to come from you.
How do you give yourself permission? Go to a counselor that understands narcissism (and is not him or herself a narcissist!). Remember that you are but a thing to be controlled by your N. To reclaim and honor your LIFE, you must leave or die a slow painful mind-numbing death. Your choice. BTW, choosing life doesn't make you a bad person. :) But count on an N to tell you it does.
I'm glad you are learning all you can about narcissism. It will really help you understand it and more importantly how contact with it makes you feel.
To everyone: I found a new site that is just wonderfully written by a layperson. Many facets of narcissism explained in detail with anecdotes. Not loaded down with psychobabble although some terms are used and explained. www.operationdoubles.com (http://www.operationdoubles.com ) Go to "What Makes a Narcissist Tick".
Good luck A! Miss Piggy
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Welcome arold,
I have been married to and divorced from 2 n men. The second one I was married to for 23 years, he is the father of my 2 children, and the divorce was devastating. I definitely agree that therapy is the best way for you to go right now and I applaud you taking that step.
Your wife may have NPD or maybe just N traits and maybe some BPD thrown in for good measure, but what does it matter? She is making your life a living hell and you know that she will not change. She will pull out all the stops to get you to come back, but if you do, the cycle will just begin again. She does not love you, she just NEEDS you to supply her. If she finds someone better to provide that supply, she will discard you without thinking twice. They don't feel and love the way the rest of us do. They are empty shells that just look for vulnerable individuals to prey upon and eventually suck dry.
If she is keeping you from your children, that should be reason enough to remove her from your life. I would never let a man into my life who did not understand and support that my relationship with my children is very valuable and necessary to my happiness.
I hope you can get the help you need from the therapist and you find whatever way possible to not let her suck you back in.
Blessings,
Brigid
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hi Arold,
Just a quick note to say that if you are looking for a counsellor in the UK, just click on the following site:
http://www.bacp.co.uk/
then click on: "find a therapist", then enter your post code and it will bring up all the therapists in your area. I found mine that way. It tells you about them and what type they practise and what all their qualifications mean.
I wish you the very best of luck on this tough road that lies ahead of you.
Keep posting
Selkie
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I am interested in the site that you refered to which listed about 100 signs and symptoms of NPD?
If you made a close match with that list AND your wife's behavoir, then surely no more diagnostic stuff is needed. Take it from one who has been in a relationship with an NPD woman( a cop ), You will continue on a downward spiral and she will drain you dry of every drop of self regard that you possess. They are evil emotional vampires and unfortunately they do operate in sunlight. They have a pathological lust for control and power and achieve this by crushing your spirit,distorting the truth,accusing you of things that haven't happened yet, and numerous other vile and blaming behaviors. There is no cure for what is wrong with her. However,there is help available for you and the good ladies above have pointed you in that direction.
Your wife may also have BPD and/or HPD to add more poison to the brew.
HPD women are the 'drama queens' who will tell you that YOU are the problem and everyone just loves them so they cannot possible be at fault( weird logic but nobody ever said that these women made sense Lol)
Good hunting brother.
( ya can't shoot 'em so you just gotta leave 'em)
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Hi Arnold,
To diganose your wife, a therapist would have to see her, she'd have to cooperate, then the counsellor must find it OK and safe to tell her of the diagnosis (most NPD counsellors are biased against it, since they feel that it gives them better therapeutic access to just feed their clients illusions and go from there. THEN she should be willing to tell you what that diagnosis is, since according to confidentiality rules teh counsellor would not reveal it to anyone else. What are the chances of the joint probability of all the ifs holding up? I would say statistically zero.
There is another route, which most of us found. Through our own therapist, who told us about NPD and told us that ou parents/spouse may have it. Then there are some brave souls like you who found it on their own, and prefer to work on their problems independently.
If you feel that your spouse has NPD, then I'd say chances are that 99% she has it, especially because you say that you are a shadow of your former self. This is a clear giveaway.
As for helping her, most of us have learned the HARD way that they cannot be helped. So there is noreason why you should not choose the road well travelled too. :P However, if you want to learn from others' experience, go into it with your eyes open, hope for the best but do prepare for the worst. If you ever confront an N, they will rob you, steal you, slander you, turn your loved ones against you. If it stops here, consider yourself lucky. So be prepared with your finances (e.g. if you have joint accounts, transfer the funds,) make plans to protect your children, etc. You may have accepted that you'd split these properties with her, but don't be suprized if she controls all of them 100% while you twiddle your thumb. If she has the power to do so, she most likely may. (My own Nmom did this to me!)
One critical peice of advice. YOU must control the timing of when you leave her. That means not letting it on before you are fully prepared. Remove fmily pictures, any other items that mean a lot to you from teh house before you do so. Ns are VERY likely to posssess and control and destroy such things.
The oft repeated advice is that you'll find out what teh narcissist is up to by listning to clues, by paying atention to what is it that she is accusing you of. If she accuses of you of theft, then that is what she is planning. If she accuses you of slander, then that is what she is engaging in.
Also, DONT expect your family or friends to entirely understand your ordeal. Only those who've had bouts with Ns can offer you true empathy. That is why many of us hang out here, even years after Ns have exited our lives.
Arnold, let us know how therapy goes. All the best.
Marta
My two favorite links for NPD. The first one is a must read academic paper.
http://www.ippnj.org/mcwilliams1.html
http://www.operationdoubles.com/narc/
http://www.chameleongroup.org.uk/npd/index.html
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Hi Arold (love the name by the way, do you stick like glue?!) :D
For a divorce will you cite ‘unreasonable behaviour’ (she’d fight that I would guess) or ‘irretrievable breakdown’? Will she agree?
About divorce and money: NO! She does not automatically get half!
See this from the Citizens Advice Bureau. Unless you have kids, it’s about your assets and how much each of you has contributed to them. Has she paid for any of the property? Has she contributed financially? She may not be entitled to any of it. Here’s an extract:
http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/family_parent/family/ending_a_relationship.htm#Ending_a_marriage
"Court Orders
A husband, wife or civil partner can apply for a court order for financial support at the end of a relationship. You can do this after the relationship had formally ended, for example, by divorce or dissolution of a civil partnership.
The court will consider all the financial resources and assets of both partners, including pension arrangements.
In some circumstances, the court can also make an order for child maintenance to be paid.
A court can make an order for periodical maintenance payments to be made, that is, a specific sum at regular intervals, or for a specified lump sum. It can also make an order about pension arrangements."
*Don’t let your solicitor rip you off by making it more complex than it has to be!* (you can get books for English law on ‘how to do your own divorce’ which would clue you in to the legal process.) Good luck again.
Miss Piggy: I love the operation doubles website. Great information! Thank you!
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MP,
I tried to access the website you referenced and was denied. Any suggestions??
Arold,
One more point about the logistics of divorce. I am in the US, in a marital property state which means that all property purchased during the marriage is divided 50-50, but if you brought it in to the marriage, you can take it away. Did you put a pre-nuptial agreement in place to protect your children's interests in the event of your death? This is a necessity if you have a new marriage after the divorce of the marriage that produced the children (assuming this is allowed in the UK). You need to meet with an attorney (solicitor) right away to determine what protections you need to put in place before you file the paperwork (if that is what you eventually do). I guarantee that she will not play fairly and you will need to be well represented to protect your interests and those of your children. You say now that you do not care what it costs, but don't do anything out of desperation that you will regret in the future. No amount of money will make her easier to deal with. I assume that she is employed and can take care of herself, and your marriage was short term--so you should not have to pay out any maintenance, nor should she be able to get any of your pension, but these are all things an attorney can answer for you.
Trust me when I say that your therapist and your attorney are the two most important people in your life right now. I hired a good one in each case (only by the grace of God and good referrals from friends) and am now in a very happy place and well taken care of financially. I know wayyyyy too many people who made bad decisions in the throws of the divorce, and now live to regret it and wish they could go back and make some different choices.
I hope you are finding some help.
Brigid
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Hey Arnold,
Agree with everyone here, in a word, save your humanity for the humane...
Brigid,
Maybe try googling on the title "What Makes a Narcissist Tick". Maybe that will get you in.
MP
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MP and Portia,
I don't want to hijack this thread, but just wanted to say thank you with the help in accessing that website. It has some excellent information. When I read "The Essence of Narcissism," it was a complete explanation of my xnh. Thank you.
Brigid
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Hi Brigid,
Glad you could get the website. It's uncanny, isn't it?
You'll find my life story on the page about the making of a narcissist. Just substitute an older brother for the Mary character and there you go. It gave me a pretty upset stomach when I read it. :( I wanted to go back into denial rather than again acknowledge to myself that my brother really is that selfish and my mother really is that blind. That my father really is that sick.
Are there really families that are N-free?
MP
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Hi Arold,
Welcome to the forum!
I found a great book which talks about how to leave a relationship among many other great "normal" solutions to adult child problems. Here are some of their suggestions about leaving a relationship:
- Don't say you are ready to leave a relationship until you are ready to do so.
- Don't reinitiate contact with them especially if you are feeling lonely and vulnerable.
- If the other person is violent or suicidal or is endangering your family seek professional help ASAP.
- Just being friends doesn't work.
Mostly they are referring to non-marriage situations however this could be applied to any relationship.
What I get from what they have written (I posted the book on the What Helps part of this forum) is make a clean cut. Don't be willy wagging back and forth.
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Boy is that sane, SF.
I willy-wagged so much in past relationships w/Ns that I came to resemble a person hanging on to the bumper of a speeding semi, scraping her feet off on the pavement, shrieking at the driver who couldn't hear her (much less see her in his rear-view mirror) and wouldn't give a hoot if he did: "But I'm having such a LOVELY trip with you, let me back in the cab!"
It was complete insanity. One small (actually huge) way I began to recognize I was breaking some old patterns was at the end of the last relationship with an N, a year ago. The willywaggies lasted only a few weeks and one day (with a boot in the behind from my N-ish but well-intentioned friend) I Saw Reality. And very qucikly after, felt nothing but aversion for that man. I have recoiled at the thought of him ever since. NO desire for contact and when I saw him on the street one day all I noticed was his very "haughty" body language. An interesting little N bit I'd read about somewhere. He's a somatic N.
Question is whether I'm brave enough to ever try any relationship at all again. But I think I will be. Maybe in 2006, or 2007, but whenever, slooooowly. Thanks for the reminder.
A_nld, how did your appointment with the T go, if you've had it already?
Hopalong
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Hiya Arold
Welcome to the board. I have found this place a santuary where I can post my thoughts and feelings without fearing reprocussions or judgements. It is an amazing place. I feel the others have given you some very sound advice.
Whether your wife has NPD or not is something that you will possibly never definitely know, so I would advise to trust your own judgements and instincts on this. Regarding leaving her, only you can decide. I feel that because you are posting here and you are finding out as much information as possible, you are giving yourself chance to make a decision. In the long run, what would make you happy? You are very much a part of your marriage and it's so easy to forget about yourself because everything is about them.
As you've had a on again off again relationship, you will possibly know how she reacts when your off? It may be advisable to use this information wisely as this would give you an insight of what to expect. There will possibly be a time where it becomes ugly once she realises it is permanently off.
Regarding your assets, I hope your solicitor can help you there. Although I'm in the UK, I'm not sure how it all works. I think it may depend on the grounds of the divorce but I'm not sure.
Keep posting and take care.
H&H
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Try the links I posted to the What Helps topic on the other board. You want to see lists of symptoms, attitudes, beliefs, weaknesses and vices - that website its the best for detail. It is technical but easy enough to understand.
Here is an example of the detail. Weaknesses:
Pride, vanity, vainglory, superbia, superiority, hubris, overbearingness, haughtiness, separateness, insensitivity, self-importance, egoism, ego-centricity, wrath, arrogance, malice, hypocrisy, skepticism, ignorance.
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I’d like to thank you all for your wonderful, kind words of encouragement and advice. I can’t begin to tell you how happy I am that this site exists, this is exactly what I need right now.
I’ve been for my first session with the therapist and she helped me to understand that this isn’t my fault. My self-esteem has taken a massive bashing over the past four years and I really need to get myself back to where I was before I met this poisonous woman.
I understand all of the theory now. I’ve read four books on the subject and it’s like reading a book of my own life!
What I need to do now is surround myself with the friends and family that she cut me off from. I also need to emerge myself in my work and various past-times.
The problem that I still have is that over the past few days, I’ve had this incredible feeling of emptiness. I can’t stop thinking about her with somebody else. I know her well enough to know that she’ll be on the lookout for somebody else even as we speak. Also, the books tell me that this is classic N behaviour as she needs to get her N fix.
I understand all of this, and part of me is saying ‘Thank God. She can find somebody else and leave me alone. Pity the poor guy that she finds’. But, another part of me is growing insanely jealous and my mind is filled with pictures of her with another man.
When I walked out on her, I wasn’t sure if she was an N, and I also wasn’t sure whether I should leave her for good or not. Having been to the therapy, read the books and thought about this for a long time, I now realise that she is DEFINITELY as narcissist, and if I know what’s good for me, I should definitely leave her. However, all of this information doesn’t make it any easier to bear.
I nearly went back to her last night. I sent her a text message. When she didn’t reply, I drove to her apartment. I had to force myself not to knock on the door and go in. When she eventually did reply about an hour later, I was feeling stronger and told her that I was having a mad half hour and that she should ignore me, which she did.
Part of me is thinking that I should find another woman to take my mind off of her. But I know that this would be a very bad idea. As I said, for the moment, I think I’ll immerse myself in my work, friends, family and past-times.
Thanks for listening guys. It’s a great help to write and share these words. It’s helping to bring me clarity.
Arold
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Arold,
Hang in there. It's not easy. This is the difficult part. This is the toxic part. It's like you are tangled up in each other and it's so hard to pull yourself away from her. Try very hard to take your energy off her and put it onto yourself instead. Write if it helps. Talk about your feelings and try to figure out why rather than what you are feeling. Question why you are so attracted to someone who is so unhealthy and unavailable. I am sure this spot triggers feelings of rejection (Even though you are rejecting her) and abandonment in you. Combat those feelings by educating yourself about them.
I understand SO WELL that panic feeling thing that comes over you at that stage in the relationship when they don't take your call, you feel like you are losing them and you run towards them, all logic thought has gone out the window completely and you are caught up in something that makes no sense. It's so horrible, but ride with it. Stay with the pain of it knowing it will pass. DO NOT ACT ON IT.
You know now what a simple text can lead to. Don't set yourself up like that again. Look out for yourself.
...and keep posting
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Thanks Selkie, you are SO right! It was stupid of me to send that text message. I had to think about it for about an hour before I sent it. I stupidly and rather predictably believed that after one simple text message, everything would be ok again.
I should have thought it through more. By sending that message, I put her in a position of control. Don’t get me wrong, I know this isn’t about control, but up until this point, I’ve been in control of my own thoughts and emotions. What I did last night was to put her back in control of me.
I’ve been trying to imagine why I feel so painful and empty inside, knowing what I do about her. My conclusion is that I have been well and truly BRAINWASHED. She is a master at telling me how good she is for me. She constantly tells me that I’ll never find anybody better than her. She is a very attractive woman and she uses this against me. She’s always telling me how easy it would be for her to find another man and how difficult it will be for me. I think it’s this brainwashing that is causing me to have these jealous feelings.
I guess by understanding it, it makes it a little easier to deal with.
Thanks again
Arold
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By sending that message, I put her in a position of control. Don’t get me wrong, I know this isn’t about control, but up until this point, I’ve been in control of my own thoughts and emotions. What I did last night was to put her back in control of me.
I remember that feeling well. Thats EXACTLY it. It's supposed to be about you (for once); it's your journey, your realisation, your welfare and your choice to walk away but those texts and those slip up's make it into a game of cat and mouse. Don't go there. It's not going to change a thing. This has happened now and there is no turning back. The only way is forward. Find your path now and start listening to yourself this time.
I have been with someone who has made me feel like shit too. They bigged themselves up just so that they could put me down. it's power play. It's not love. It's a tactic to keep you in place. It is indeed brainwashing and it happens everyday, people can have such an immense power over each other. There was an interesting article on brainwashing in relationships, someone will post the link on here I am sure as i can't remember it now.
It's going to take some time to regain your sense of self, there will be lots of temptations to go back to the one who made you into who you are now, that's the draw. Keep away from her. She is dangerous to your psyche! You will find love if you take yourself away from her and find you again.
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arold,
I guarantee you that you are experiencing the same feelings of abandonment, fear of being alone, longing for the person you thought they were, jealousy over new relationships and sadness that most all of us have felt when separating from our n relationships--no matter which partner made the decision to leave. When my xnh left me for another woman after 22 years of marriage, I was absolutely devastated and would have done anything at the time to have him come back. Thank God he was not willing, thinking that this new chick was going to make him "normal" sexually and that he "loved" her.
A lot of therapy brought me to realize that my marriage was not healthy, nor could it ever be unless my xh went through a great deal of therapy. Since he did not see himself as having a problem--he viewed his sexual problems as being all my fault that would be fixed with a new partner--no amount of therapy would have helped him.
It has been 2 1/2 years since it all began. I was in weekly therapy for 2 of those years and just recently said goodbye to my therapist as, at least for now, I have found peace and serenity and am healthier emotionally than ever before. My strongest recommendations to you right now would be:
1. Please don't jump into any new relationships right now. I was tempted by this early on to show my xh that I could find someone who wanted me like he had found someone. Most likely you would end up with another bad choice as you would not have the skills to seek someone healthy--nor would you be healthy. In order to find a healthy partner, you need to be healthy yourself. BTW, my x's married girlfriend ultimately decided to stay with her husband and as far as I know my xh has not found a replacement. I, on the other hand, am in a great relationship now.
2. Try not to fill up all your time with work or other distractions. You need to sit and feel the pain, grief, anger and work through it--not avoid it with other activities. It's fine to spend some time doing things you enjoy--spending time with your children, exercising, work projects, or maybe even finding something new to try that you've always wanted to do--but don't let it consume you. Try to find some quiet moments in each day to feel your pain. It's so tempting to avoid it, but imho, very necessary to face it, if you want to heal from it.
3. Avoid having any contact with her (I know you know this). Since you don't have children together, which in my case, forced me to have some contact, you can avoid her altogether. She will, most likely, go in search of a new victim very soon, if she hasn't already. Keep in mind, whatever relationships she has will never mean anything. She is not capable of feeling or giving love. She is an empty shell looking for someone to fill her up. It is like a drug addict needing a fix--it will only be temporary and will never be a sustainable relationship. You have the ability to find real love that she will never have. You may actually feel some compassion for her one day for that. I have sort of reached that point with my xnh--but mostly, I feel nothing where he is concerned these days.
I can so relate to and understand your sadness. I promise that it does get better if you take your time and work through the stages.
Many blessings,
Brigid
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Thanks Brigid, that’s top advice to stop and give myself some time to face the pain. I guess that way I’m not pushing it down where it could reappear in the future. But rather, I’m dealing with it in the here and now.
I have a question for anybody that may have been in a similar situation. If I could persuade my wife to attend a therapy session with me, do you think that any benefit could be gained from this experience?
What I understand so far from the books that I’ve read is that she would probably not agree to seeing a therapist because she doesn’t see anything wrong in her actions. In addition, if she were to attend a session, she would probably find something wrong with either the process or the therapist.
I was thinking that rather than asking her to attend a session alone, for HER ‘problems’, maybe I could get her into a session under the ‘guise’ of couples counselling and then maybe (yes, it’s a lot of “maybe’s”), the therapist could help her to see things more clearly?
Of course, nobody is perfect, and it’s quite obvious that I have my own set of issues to deal with and as such, the therapy will continue to help me. I guess I haven’t completely given up on my wife yet, or perhaps it’s just a case of not being able to let go, I don’t know?
This is all so confusing!
Arold
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I have a question for anybody that may have been in a similar situation. If I could persuade my wife to attend a therapy session with me, do you think that any benefit could be gained from this experience?
What I understand so far from the books that I’ve read is that she would probably not agree to seeing a therapist because she doesn’t see anything wrong in her actions. In addition, if she were to attend a session, she would probably find something wrong with either the process or the therapist.
Hiya
I feel you have answered your own question there. I tried this with my dad (obviously not couples counselling, but us both going to counselling together). He was outraged. Unfortunately you cannot help someone who doesn't want help.
Take care
H&H xx
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arold,
I was in couples counselling for 6 weeks with my xh. The therapist (who eventually became my therapist) saw each of us alone once per week and together once a week. All my x did was lie--to the therapist and to me. There was not one important thing that he was honest about. It's pretty hard to have any meaningful therapy take place if one of the members is not honest about their activities, feelings and other relationships. My therapist was the one who identified my x as n and that began my journey to understanding narcissism.
Even if you were able to get your wife to attend a counselling session, what would that accomplish? She would turn on the charm and act like she had no business being there. I know you want to believe that something might make this better, but I think you would be best served to cut your losses and move on before she sucks the rest of the life out of you. You have a lot of years left to live so think about how that would be married to her. Think about how she will try to destroy the relationship you have with your children. I know you deserve better than that.
Brigid
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Arold, nothing changes until someone changes their ways. If you are convinced that you wife's NPD is at the root of your marriage problems then it follows that repair of you marriage is dependent upon her recovery. Is she wiliing to have counseling? Have you asked her DIRECTLY? It is a Yes/No kind of question after all.
Even if she did agree to see a T, the prognosis for these people is poor.
If she does not agree to go then you are really jammed up against it.
I suggest that you read Scott Peck's "People of the Lie". He is one of the only writers who has the courage to condemn the NPD for the evil B****S that they are.
I would not waste another microsecond on her if I were you. Maybe you need to look closely at why YOU are still 'wishing and a'hoping' that a relationship can be rebuilt with someone who is demented and just plain bad.
She will drain you dry and then discard you -it is what they do to others and you will not fare any better than all the rest of the world's NPD victims.
"May your glue stay hard"
Its not Easy
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Hello Arold. I'm in the UK, too.
I was as affected as you are and had to work really hard in order to reach a point where I would not to be affected by the people in my life.
And then...I discovered that it was something called Aspergers Syndrome.
It explains everything!!!
In part, the descriptions we give them are objectively true from the 'outside' but that's not what going on inside THEM. They are on the other side of the fence in another world, on another planet. Once you begin to understand you can begin to forgive them but the prognosis for relationship with a spouse is pretty slim unless they are prepared to recognise their disability.
Relate has specialist counsellors in some areas of the country and the Derby branch has a telephone help line.
I have a child with Aspergers Syndrome - it's given me the insight and compassion to understand my Aspie mother although I find it hard to be quite so compassionate with my Aspie husband.
The main difference between NPD and Apergers seems to be in self-awareness. An Aspie may know they are weird or odd in some way but they do not 'do evil unto others' with any forethought, intention or awareness whereas someone with NPD knows what they are doing and are calculated about it. It's very difficult to tell the difference from the outside. Aspies are often indifferent and hurtful but actually they're being truthful and logical. Their problems are neurological whereas NPD is psychological. As I said...difficult to tell the difference from the outside!!
There are some useful books and pointers available from the National Autistic Society website.
Hi Portia - I was looking for you!! :-) I'll send you a pm. Sorry to hear you're not well, Write, but it sounds like you're having a very productive time psychologically speaking!!! :-)
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Arn,
You are right, it is about letting go.
You will make it. Therapy and this and all those things you so smartly identified will help you too.
But Brigid is right, there are no shortcuts. The pain is something daunting, so it's also okay to feel it NOT alone...in support groups, here, with your T.
I think the book When Things Fall Apart by Pema Chodron would help you a lot.
Never mind the theology (it's Buddhist--I'm not)...just try out what she's saying.
Marta, hope it's okay that I copied your three suggested links and put them over on What Helps.
Arn, the part of you that is pulling away from this is the part of you that has decided to swim for the surface even though the pre-drowing moment, when you start to literally let go of survival...has a sleepy sort of comfort about it. Waking up involves struggle, you're in it.
And I know you'll reach the surface. Keep kicking--AWAY from her.
Hang in,
Hopalong
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Hi Arold,
I know how hard it is to make the decision to break up your family. You have to recreate your life and do it also for your children. You face untold nastiness and limbo. It is daunting.
Maybe you need to go through more preliminary steps so that you are ready for it emotionally, not just intellectually. If you need to ask yuor wife to go to counseling or try one last time to work it out with her, then do that. You are there, and we are here, so you know a lot more about your situation than we do.
I think the important thing is to do something. And keep things moving. And don't try to forget what you know or postpone the pain.
I wish you strength and luck.
Plucky