Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: SurviveAndGrow on December 22, 2005, 03:44:19 PM
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Hi All,
sorry to bug you. We are in the middle of the 'perfect' storm we anticipated.
I am going to send a personal post to some of you (I don't want to put our story
in a public place. I am sure our N's would be so glad to use this...). Would you
please read your personal posts? We need help.
Thank you so much,
SurviveAndGrow.
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Thinking of you at this time. You do both have the courage and strength to get through this.
Take care
H&H xx
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Could anybody explain to me how to send private posts?
SurviveAndGrow.
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Hiya S&G
You can send personal messages by clicking on the members profile, and at the bottom there is a link that says, send this person a personal message. Or you can click next to your name in the box at the top which takes you to your own messages, then click a new message and search for the name of the person you'd like to send to.
I'll send you a test one to see if you get it.
Hope this helps.
H&H xx
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S&G,
Post the message without names on this thread. Then you can delete the entire thread after two days as you started it yourself, without any traces of this discussion online. I have been in your shoes many times and just know we get paranoid with Ns, but I think this is a reasonable thing to do. Take care of yourself.....
Marta
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Hello Survive and Grow,
I remember your story and I hope you and your wife have some sturdy outside support as well. Like your board name, you will survive, grow and thrive when you get through this. Give each other lots of hugs and hold on tight till the storm passes!
Take care, MP
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Hi All,
Finally, It was a false alert... We are still in the storm brewing phase...
(It does not seem that things are going to deflate slowly and nicely)
Thank you so much,
SurviveAndGrow.
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Five days after we had a new baby, my FIL left a message on the answering machine asking
my wife to call back. She called back the next day (they had spoken together a little bit before
he left the message and it was pretty late) and basically, he wanted to tell
her that he and his wife were very unhappy. My wife told me that her father told
that there was a social contract in the family and that my wife had broken it.
That he loved her but he was disappointed by the way she acted. He also
suggested that I was abusing her and said that I was brainwashing her and that they
wanted to be sure that the way she acted was coming from her and not from me. My wife
told me that they see me as an horrible person who keeps her from them.
They sent nice flowers a few days before with a word like 'Congratulations to you all,
love, etc...'. I do not understand why they cannot stay with sending the flowers and then
wait a few weeks to see us happily. At the birth of our first child we had our life all public with
MIL living with us for months. I think they could just give us a little privacy and let us adapt
to a new dynamic of our small family (us and our kids). We called them, we told them we
were sending pictures.
FIL was upset that we didn't go (Well, he is upset that my wife didn't go with the kids)
on a cruise with him for his birthday. He had been requiring for a family vacation for
his birthday ('so we get to know each other'... Our kids know them... 'That's the only
thing I want' was the answer when my wife asked what else he would like. When my
wife told him that we had a small child with us that it wouldn't be exactly a good time
for us. He told us to hire a nanny to take care of our child.). We had said that it
would not work for us but that we would come to visit for a week-end or so and that
we could spend a family day together to celebrate his birthday a couple of weeks
after his birthday. A few days before the actual day of his birthday though he knew that
I could not travel because of work obligation, he left a message on our answering
machine telling that he had made reservations on a cruise for all of us, that there
was no obligation but that he would be very happy if my wife could come with her
family or a subset of it (!). We didn't answer right away to this message. In the
meantime, we got pressure calls to go. My wife answered telling we could not go but
they would have fun. So, 6 days after we had our new baby, my wife's father is
telling her that people take separate vacations and that she could have gone
without me. (By separate vacation, he means husband and wife. My IL's do not
seem to support any vacation or trip we take without them. Separate vacations
do not hold for them and us (well I am not sure they actually want vacations with
me...)...).
My parents are far too. We called them less than my IL's and they do not seem
to complain or criticize at all.
A year ago, my FIL pressured my wife to send him her resume so he could send
it to places close to where my IL's live. When my wife said no, he said that if
he had another daughter he would never send her away to study again (note that
I met her when she was away). He also said that he would need somebody to take
care of him when he would be older. MIL is about 10 years younger than him and
BIL lives a few blocks from their house (he is constantly in their house).
Now... My wife is buying some of this. She thinks that maybe if we see them more,
they will be nicer and happier. She does not want to hurt them. She thinks she
owes them something. She thinks that I should have a discussion with them.
I think that it does not change anything if we see them more or less. We went on
a family vacation with them a few years ago. MIL was looking every of our moves
(See the thread about Theatophilia... We have this a lot...). We could not go anywhere
without heavy guilt clouds. We didn't follow all their instructions while on this family
vacation but we did A LOT with them. We stayed in the same house, etc... A couple
of years later (again just 2 weeks after we had another child and after we had received
them very well in our home less than a week after the birth, MIL told my wife that we
didn't care of our elders that her and her husband did a much better job at this), my
wife asked me to speak with my MIL. Among the criticisms that my MIL had on me, I
was surprise to hear that we would go away every day (!) during this family vacation.
False. I think there is not much point in me having a discussion with them. I think it
would just give fuel material for them to complain on me.
I think my wife should rather be firm and protect our family (maybe not right now
when she is in postpartum but in general). Personally, I would be very upset if
somebody (would it be family members or not) would come and complain
that my wife is taking me away from him/her. My instinct would not be to go to
this person. I would rather go away from this person.
We don't have much vacation a year.
Any quick recommendation for me or my wife?
Some good things:
- FIL said that MIL was in therapy. She is 'trying to understand what she
did wrong' (she does not think she did anything wrong. She is trying to
find something). I think she started 1 1/2 year ago. I read that it may take
2 years before a N begins to realize that therapy might be useful. So we
might see results in the coming years (sad my FIL thinks he is 'not crazy',
that we (well, me, I guess) are the problem)
- We should have some time to get help for ourselves in the coming weeks.
(My wife seems to agree that it might be useful.)
- It seems that it will just be us for the holidays (no surprise visit... :-) ).
Have a peaceful and happy Christmas,
SurviveAndGrow.
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My wife is buying some of this. She thinks that maybe if we see them more,
they will be nicer and happier. She does not want to hurt them. She thinks she
owes them something.
Hi S&G,
I'm glad your wife finally sees that you all need help and I hope she will not change her mind.
What makes her think they will be nicer?
Were they nicer in the past when you spent more time? In that case, what made you reduce the time spent?
Or is that just what they want you to believe? Well, you know that Ns are insatiable.
Ask your wife if your children will 'owe' her something when they are grown. And if she can envision herself treating her children the way she is being treated? Does she want her children to be as miserable as you two are? Does she want her children to learn that being treated the way your Nlaws are doing to you is normal and ought to be accepted?
Plucky
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Sorry S & G,
It sounds like a horrid power struggle with no winners.
My only thought is, is your wife in therapy? I wonder if she feels caught between you and her parents, and controlling as they are, is it at all possible that she also feels pressured or controlled by you to make progress with all this faster than she is ready to?
I mean no offense, a power struggle certainly is about control. I just feel for her, she sounds so stuck in the middle, and she loves all of you.
If she were in therapy on her own, she might build the strength to set healthier boundaries with her parents, and also deliver you from the role of pressuring her to confront them. Because she would then do that in her own way, at her own pace, out of her own healing process. Rather than solely in response to your direction.
It must be very painful and frustrating for you to want that to happen faster, and I do think it sounds as though they have very unreasonable expectations. I think No Thank You is an acceptable response, for her to give her parents, for you to give them, for them to give you, for you to give her, for her to give you, etc... Yes thanks, no thanks.
I'm just wondering if as a SIL you're a little bit in the position of a step-parent. Ideally, Step-parents shouuld not be disciplinarians, but leave that to the bioparent. Is there any similar truth for inlaws?
I'm sorry it's so hard.
Hopalong
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Dear S&G,
First thing, the good news is that your situation is sooo familiar you don't have to worry about deleting it later. 8) I read your post earlier today and had to walk away and mull it over. Jeez. Your FIL just takes the cake. N to a T. All the guilt, obligation, etc. I just hate that. It isn't love. It's obligation. It's pulling strings.
Anyway, even though your read seems pretty spot on, beware of being the eager crusader. I fully agree with Plucky and Hops. Your wife needs to come to terms on this and she's caught in the middle. Your FIL is playing divide and conquer. And your wife might be tempted to allow them to paint you as the bad guy to placate them. It's very very difficult to face down Angry Dad. Blamers need someone to blame and they for some reason won't blame the person they are really angry with because they want them back, they don't want to push them away, meaning your FIL and your wife. And your wife probably knows better than anyone that you cannot, I repeat, cannot win an argument with Ndads. It's a no-win deal for her and she has to figure out how she wants to lose. And I agree it is pointless for you to talk to FIL. This means it's your issue. Frankly, you are simply a helpful distraction from the main issue: her parents allowing her to lead her own life.
Jeepers, I wonder if your FIL lived up to his own standards of parent caregiving (I doubt it). My own Nfather has incredible needs in this category and never once visited his own father in the seniors home, even though it was on his way home from the office. I'm ready to tell him he will get the same amount of attention he gave his own parents. (He kept moving away from them. Hmmm. That's OK with me, but why is he demanding I do differently???)
Ns are the masters of double standards and I walked away from this post earlier because the Ns can just stuff them in their stockings for Christmas!!!
This "you owe me" crap is another button of mine. What, I don't have the right to exist unless I do what you say? That makes me so angry. He owes me some fatherly companionship and love, not this controlling dominating slaveownership stuff. Tell your wife to throw all the double standards back in his face. Look at his childhood, at the way he treated his parents, at the rules he lived by. Did she ask him to be born? What, is he a farmer who had 18 kids to help harvest the corn?
Yikes, sorry S&G, I'm ranting all over your thread/storm. :( I do sympathize with your wife. I know what she means when she told you she's been dealing with it all her life and if there was an easy solution she would have definitely done it by now (what I remember from an earlier post?). But I hope she does follow through on finding a great therapist before her parents swallow her whole. Boundaries are the key and a good T will define that and explore what that feels like and when it's OK etc in a safe place with no agenda other than good mental health.
OK, I'm ready for the holidays now. Hah! Good luck to you, MP
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That's really, really interesting, MP.
My NMom beat it out of town and never looked back, as far as her parents were concerned.
She was dutiful but they were poor, and Mom married "up"--and caring for them in their old age never seemed to cross her mind. She did send a little money but couldn't make her own mother's funeral.
But...she trained her husband, my dear and unaware Dad, to wait on her hand and foot...and here I am years later, sort of stunned at the degree of attention she craves.
I'm still amazed by her insatiability.
Yet her own parents?
Wow. You opened my eyes to something. I'm not sure what.
Hopalong
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Thank you!
So far, it is OK. I have no idea of how my wife is able to handle
all this. In general and just now. I am doing the best I can so
to have our family act 'normally' (put the issues aside and live a
normal life). We are now quite sure that her family will not visit before
we invite them, we are seeing 'normal' people. We just had friends
paying us a visit to see our new little one, bringing us some food.
We are going to see some other friends at Christmas. Each time
there is an event with my IL's, I encourage my wife to go (either
her alone or both of us) and see 'normal' people.
It seems that both my FIL and MIL had controlling parents. I knew
my MIL's father for a few years before he passed away. It seems
that he was much quieter at this time than when he was younger.
I have the impression that he was protecting my wife from her
parents in some way. I only have good memories of him, he was
very pleasant to us. On the other-hand, my MIL kept having this
weird relation with him. Somehow fearing/hating him and at the same
time calling him constantly. She kept telling that he was terrible.
My wife told me that when her parents were young, they kept
hiding from my FIL's parents when they went on family vacation.
My wife told me that it is the reason they are so upset when we
go and do something by ourselves. They compare all what happen
to what their parents and they did in the past (as a matter of fact,
they also compare to what everybody they know is currently doing).
I indeed realise I am just a distraction in the things going on between
her and her parents. Anybody else she would have been with would
have had the same treatment and they would have given her the
same treatment. I realise also that I am not just a distraction in the
life of my wife. We want to spend our live together. I can distinguish
between being just a quidam and being important in her life. This is good.
I hope my wife will keep up with the intention of seeking help. I have the impression that there has been a great change in the way she sees things since
she discovered this board. I think she was (is still) really craving to get answers from you all.
It is hard to not push her to try to get things resolved in some way. I am conscious I do.
MP, Hopalong, Plucky, Marta, H&H, I wish your christmas stockings will only be
stuffed with good things. Sorry for bugging you like this. This is really nice of you to help us. You're pretty good persons, you know!
SurviveAndGrow.
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Stop pushing her.
That will be the greatest gift you can give her.
Your restraint = respect. Pushing = disrespect and controlling.
She deserves this gift and what's more, it will also give something to you.
Something you can't see yet.
Happy holidays to you too, S & G.
Peace to you all,
Hopalong
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Hi S&G,
I think you might be slightly understating your presence when you say you are just a distraction to your ILs. With a typical N family your wife is seen as their possesion. That makes you a thief and the enemy not just a distraction.
I agree with Hoppy that you not push your wife but please do not make the mistake of letting things they say about you go unchallenged. These people are masters at defamation and ostracization. I do not think it would be wise to give into their desire to divide you with seperate visits. A lot of damage can be done if you aren't around to defend yourself. Either neither of you should go or you should both go, no matter how unpleasant it might be for you.
Their intent is evidentally to split you up or as a second choice control your lives. Your wife sounds strong and sensible and there is probably little chance of them succeeding, but don't underestimate what they, in their hearts really, want. And if they're NPD don't underestimate what they will do.
mud
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Hey Mudpuppy!
Thanks!
I am really wondering what I should do...
How can I let things not to go unchallenged?
SurviveAndGrow.
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Well S&G,
This is how they operate. If you're not around they will lie about you. About things you haven't done and motives you don't have. If you just sit back with the attitude that your wife won't believe any of it, you will, we hope, be right. But I have had people that I trusted believe things about me because I had the "sit back and they won't believe something that ridiculous attitude". They weave a web of persuasive lies and the more one on one contact a member of their family has with them the easier it is to draw that person back into their weird world view.
If people are not drawn into the family dynamic they can think for themselves and see the strangeness of it, so the best way to challenge it is to not let it happen in the first place.
But if she does go, just be sure you are there with her and whenever they start popping off with their baloney, politely get in their face and use the truth against them. If your wife sees them abusing you for things she knows they are lying about she will hopefully see what they are doing.
I don't know how strong she is or resistant to them. She presumably grew up with them, so must be somewhat effected by it. For all I know she might be totally immune to their influence. But if it were me I wouldn't take the chance. Ns can be very persuasive, especially when left alone with someone whom they raised.
If someone is not drawn into their orbit, the truth will innoculate them against the N's lies.
If someone is drawn into their orbit, the truth won't matter one little bit.
The only way someone gets drawn into their orbit is when they have the chance to work on them alone. That is why they are trying to get her to come without you. Don't let it happen.
mud
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Hi S&G,
Well, to "challenge" things said about you, you probably have enough material to review for common themes. So you can arm yourself with stock phrases to repeat like a broken record. The good thing is you can come up with something true about yourself without hitting them with a sledgehammer.
For example, "you never visit us".
You reply "We so enjoyed our last visit in Sept."
"Why don't you let her speak for herself?"
"Darling, have I said anything you disagree with?" OR
"Of course, I just thought it was my turn. You don't mind letting everyone join the conversation, do you?"
all said with a smile. There's always the standard "I'm sorry you feel that way. I remember it differently (of course)."
When being coerced into some group thing or being asked indirectly to do something "Good luck with that!"
If it's awkward because there are "outside witnesses" that are hearing all this and you are trying to be polite, you can say, "Wilbur and I often recall things a bit differently." or "if two people always agree, only one is doing the thinking!" or "everyone is entitled to their opinion" or "oh, if you're going to bring that old shoe up again, Wilbur, let's make sure our friends have all the facts..." whatever the occasion requires. If you are feeling a little pissy, you can quote Gertrude Stein "tell the truth, it's easier."
On and on. You can prepare yourself with calm & mature one liners at the ready. My mistake was in not thinking ahead and trying to keep peace at a huge cost to myself.
A couple of books that are helpful are The Art of Verbal Self-Defense by Patricia Evans and Stop Walking on Eggshells (I forget the author).
Hoppy: I think the lack of parent caregiving from Ns is just one more aspect of Me, me, me. And me. Double standards reign supreme in my father's house. I get to, you don't. You have to, I don't. etc.
Hugs, MP
PS Just read mudpup's reply and he's right. Sadly, I've had this happen to me...so here you go. A few arrows for your quiver.
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Hi again,
I could be way off base on this, but here's what I think.
I think you should not attempt to go with your wife every time she interacts with her parents in order to defend yourself. I think your wife has to learn to think for herself and detangle from the family N-ism herself in order to make her best choice. IOW, at some point if she sees it for herself, she will make her choices. But I don't think you can micromanage this situation into health. She'd just be substituting controlling parents for a controlling spouse. The middle way, is she grows independently strong enough to make these tough choices and set these new boundaries herself. With you as her ally but not as her general.
I think if you try to control the situation by "accompanying" her every time she sees them, this is another way of not respecting her growth.
I realize you do take a risk in stepping back and trusting her to work through this process in her own way. But I keep thinking that's the best thing. And the most respectful thing to your wife.
However, at the times when you DO go along, I agree with everybody, DON'T "go along!" By all means when you are in their presence you want to deal promptly and directly with things in the present. You have the right to set boundaries around yourself, not permit distortions to pass unchecked, etc.
If you conduct yourself with nondefensive dignity around them, eventually I believe she will see where the strength and maturity is, and who's spreading poison and who's being mature. It's just not a choice unless it's her choice.
Make any sense?
Hopalong
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I agree with mudpup and hoppy. You don't want to do it for your wife. She has to do it. But I don't think she is strong enough yet. Contact alone with them could create problems. So can you get her to stay away until she has gotten entrenched in therapy?
Plucky
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This might be a good temporary solution. Should I make an appointment for
both of us or should she do it by herself (By pushing her to get things resolved
I mean things like asking for us to go and get counseling)?
We decided we would go together first in the coming weeks. Is it better if she
makes the appointment for both of us by herself or it does not matter? Should
I wait until she does it without mentioning it at all so it comes from her? (And
I could go by myself independently if I wish). This would be the ideal solution
from my point of view: She goes totally by herself ('Oh, SandG, by the way, I
went to see somebody today. I think it is good. I'm going back in three days.').
But it could take years and years and years... And my IL's are pressuring her
to micromanage every aspects of our lifes and our children's. And they are
relentless. They are not waiting for anything to happen by itself... They try to
get her buying a home and getting a job close to their home. Really. They
even want to do it for herself (buy the house, get the job). Really. It's not just
when, where, with who we take vacations (Though I think it is important too that
we can do this by ourselves). It is on all aspects of our lifes. They have some
kind of (fundamental) control already.
SurviveAndGrow.
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You're doing fine and the urgency is clear and reasonable. What crazymakers.
I can't see anything wrong with you making an appointment since you say "we decided to go together in the coming weeks."
If that's so, then you'll just be following up on a decision already made jointly.
I would just be sure to ask her what days/times work for her, you could say something like, "Let's go ahead and make our appointment, what times are okay for you?"
That's better than telling her after the fact, I think.
Good luck! Keep posting.
Hopalong
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Hi S&G,
Merry Christmas! :D
You're getting good advice from folks here. Hoppy makes a good point. Go for it. I just wanted to share my experience to give some perspective:
When I first started attending T, I didn't talk about my folks at first at all. the major crisis was my psycho SIL. But when I did talk about them, I felt incredibly disloyal. Talking to outsiders about any family matters was always forbidden, so this new behavior, even in a "safe" setting, felt extraordinarily dangerous to me. I had Paxil and Lorazepam to help me with panic attacks.
From what you describe, I do sense your urgency and need for change now. But it will take time even when you get started. But yes, I would second Hoppy's advice and set up the appointment asap. Take baby steps. One step is making that first appointment.
Your ILs sound incredibly toxic. It's so unhealthy not to let children separate in a natural progression to become adults. Your dear wife may need the attention of a physician as well since only psychiatrists as MDs are allowed to prescribe medication, not counsellors/therapists. OK, this may be too much information right now, but wanted to give you a heads up on all that.
Have a nice normal holiday! 8) Hugs, MP
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You are all so nice. :-)
I'll follow your advice.
Thank you.
It changes a lot to have you,
Have nice peaceful holidays,
SurviveAndGrow.
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Hiya S&G
Merry Christmas to you, your wife and your family.
Sometimes it helps to write things down, and maybe it would help your wife to write down the things that she wants to do, then when her parents try to micromanage her, she has a list in front of her what things she wants.
Your wife is an incredible person, and it is very important to allow her to make her own decisions which can be very difficult for a bystander when you can see what's happening. The others have given such fantastic advice.
We all hope to hear from her again soon also.
Take care
H&H xx