Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: solayads on December 31, 2005, 05:11:17 PM
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Hello Everyone:
At times I cannot help but reflect on my recent experience with my former Narcisssist associates. After doing some extensive research as well as comparing some of the posting here, I learned how deeply-imbedded and pervasive the deceit and lies are of a narcissist. It is actually "second-nature" to them.
Yes, we learn that they are projecting a "false self" which really hides their "true self". It further amazes me how a Narcissist will never go about their business and leave their victims alone; even if the person who they "hounding" lets them know that they don't want any dealings with the Narcissistic anymore!
Sure....the Narcissist will go away for a while; seeking attention in other places, but it never fails....here they come calling, knocking or leaving messages. Pathetic neediness.....
A few days ago, I heard from a former N friend. Unfortunatley, I was not within range of my caller ID so I could not see who was calling. It was a former N friend. Now, this is a person who has everything that they feel they are "entitled" to have and more. They have their cars, homes, money, etc.......they did not care who they walked on to get it. There are several other associates whom they could get attention from. Surely, they are not missing my attention when I am just an inferior speck of dust. So why bother calling me when their neediness gap has already been filled by others around them?
Anyway, since I usually screen my calls and they know that I usually ignore their call, they were surprised that I answered the phone. They said that they really wanted to meet with me.....why I'm not sure. The truth is - I didn't want to know why -- so I did not prolong the call by asking questions. They seem to believe that we have something to talk about. I have accepted the fact that any relationship that I had with this person was just a lie. Every action, gesture,.......everything about them was never genuine. What I believed was a relationship amounted to a "cloak of deceit". So I "tuned out" while they were talking and made no arrangement to see/meet them. Their phone call means nothing to me.
The person who I once thought was my friend, is now an enemy. Any hope or prospects of that changing I have learned from reading up on Narcissism --- are ZERO. At times, the cold truth saddens me because I believed that we had a connection. I believed that our conversations, laughter, ambitions, pain, dreams were shared on some plane of consciousness. But that was NEVER true.
I have forgiven them for the unnecessary distress that they have caused me because forgiveness is essential -- however, they will never be a friend. I will never allow them into the personal boundaries of my life again. And I believe that all N's who violate boundaries and are exposed, KNOW that they can never go "back" to where they were in our lives before their misconduct. This person is now a stranger to me; it's like we never met before. What a bizarre sensation......
So their KNOWING where they stand and their continuous pursuit to gain back the confidence of those whom they betray is even more criminal.
What a terrible, desperate state of affairs...
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Jacmac, I relate.
It is a horrendous challenge to maintain love for an N and maintain boundaries and self-protection at the same time.
With a "friend", you do have the option of ending it.
I'm glad you did but can hear your pain over the shock.
It's like the Emperor Has No Clothes.
I think the secret is that the Emperor does not see his/her own nakedness, and can't see the shock on others' faces either...because all s/he sees is his/her own face.
It is pitiful, sad, enraging, all of that.
I'm not sure it's criminal though...it's really an illness.
I hope you find new friends who are worthy of your trust in the new year.
Hopalong
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By continuing to talk to them, albeit in a benign way, we continue to 'supply' them and, in so doing, 'enable' them.
Having an N in your life is like living with a tumor.
Why not say to the N when he/she calls, "I no longer place any value on our relationship and I want to end it NOW. Do not contact me EVER again." And then put the phone down and go pour yourself a glass of chardonnay.
Tumor gone !
It gets easier when you have handled a few of these events.
David P.
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Thank you, David P.
I am going to handle this particular "tumor" as suggested if I hear from them again. I'm also going to keep a glass of chardonnay on hand to celebrate afterwards. :)
Here goes......
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Do not contact me EVER again
Tumor gone !
I must say that this sentence brought a smile to my face, as anyone who's ever told an N this line knows just how impossible it is to enforce anything like this. They will continue to work on our emotions in one way or another. I recently got an email from my Nmom, right after she's talking about filing criminal chages against me, to please visit home and stay with her. All this after having made it clear through an attorney's notice that I wish no further contact with her.
Not that I have any intention of initiating any contact with her, but her poisonous emails do ruin my day. Now I am at a point in my life where I can clearly see through her games, but a few years ago my vision was not so clear, my resolve was not so strong.
N tumour only goes away when they die.
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Dear Marta,
Could you BLOCK SENDER?
And not allow those toxic hooks into your private monitor space, where you only want positive messages?
Could you give yourself that gift for the new year?
Hugs,
Hopalong
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My N parents (I believe) routinely lie and cheat "the system" (taxes, stores, etc). It didn't really bother me until recently when I invited them both to a counseling session. I am 33 years old and naively and perhaps heroically thought we could "fix" our longstanding family problems.. all we needed was a little communication and a professional (counselor) to mediate things (suggested by my sister in law). This session occured before I was consiously aware that either one or both of them is likely narcissitic and counseling is unlikely to "fix" their problems.
I was astonished that my parents did not remember past events as I did. Here's what happened: A brother and sister (31 and 29) were also present, along with a counselor in this session, where I got to tell them why I stopped talking to them for almost 2 years, several years back. It's seemed so obvious, I wasn't sure why it needed telling, but I very carefully and painstakingly said, like it was just a fact, as plain as the nose on my face, which it was to me: "I stopped talking to you because you came over to my house one night and picked a fight with me. You said everything I did was wrong, and you complained that my wedding was all for my [ex's] parents. I got really mad because I thought it very disrespectful to come over to my house and drop a bomb like that when I was expecting something friendly, and I asked you to leave and on the way out the door, Mom grabbed me by the hair--like I was a little kid (again) and she swung me around. I thought this was nuts! You were verbally and physically abusive to me."
My Dad proceeded to get very angry (and rage) because I did mix up some facts in my storytelling (the actual intent of coming over wasn't to tell me my marriage was all for my ex's family, that was a later conversation--it was about changing the date of my wedding to accomodate my sister). The counselor interrupted my Dad and tried to tell him--what's important, is not the actual truth of what happend, but her perception of the past event. He raged some more and said "NO. That is a FACT, what I'm telling you." I apologized and said, maybe you're right, but the whole point is the way I felt--here's what I felt...my Dad completely dismissed my feelings and went on to tell me what really happened. Some of it was correct (and I was able to remember as he was telling me), but when he got the part where my Mom grabbed me on her way out the door. He said--and then--and his tone of voice changed significantly, like you could tell he was lying, as it was harder to speak and he spoke much faster-- "I think you pushed Mom first, or something. And (hurriedly) then (pause where he forgets to mention the rest) and we left."
At first I was stunned, I didn't know what to say. I combed my memory, was it true? Did I assault my Mom? It's possible I did, but why I don't remember? I was reeling from this thought when my Dad switched the topic smoothly and expertly to my behavior (which he made it lougly known that he disapproved of) as a teenager some 15 years earlier! He also pointed to both my brother and sister who were present and stated matter of factly "they were the good kids-- her and her brother were the bad ones" to the counselor, matter of factly, as if explaining some irretractable fact. I was stunned and didn't know how to respond until almost a day later. The conversation moved on, and soon the session ended and I walked out the door in utter disbelief. My parents tried to hug me and I didn't reciprocate it. One of them said "Oh, so you're not going to give me a hug?" I was in shock, I think. It was amazing to me how smoothly one of them (my Mother) didn't remember this Major Life Event in my life ever happening (her pulling my hair and essentially assaulting me) and my Dad then lying to everyone, that I had pushed Mom. I wondered what my siblings thought. I wondered who they believed. The next day I sent out an email explaining I didn't push Mom "I didn't think" and admitting some of the points my Dad had made were correct. I still don't know if anyone present believes my version.
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Hello Guest444,
Welcome to the board. Glad you found your way here.
I'm so sorry that this all just blew up in your face. It sounds so awful. It's classic how your parents moved right into CYA mode with outside witnesses around. And how they got you to start doubting yourself. That move to hug you after verbally assaulting you was just icing on the cake. Just perfect. How long ago did the mediation take place? I find weddings to be excellent catalysts for drawing out the worst in people. It's a change in the status quo and you can really observe what people are made of...
If you page back through the threads of this board you will find some discussions about mediations and/or weddings gone awry. Where are you in your journey in discovery of N? It is fascinating, horrifying, and painful to finally have one eyes snapped open to the truth.
Although I cannot change the external facts of my situation, all the opened up wounds and bleeding made me look inside more not to doubt myself but to realize how things really worked in my family and I am slowly claiming my personal power. I have more confidence that I am OK as I am (still working on that) and it's ok to expect my feelings and needs to be respected, etc, in addition to Ns. Hope you are getting there too.
Again, welcome. MP
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Thank you MP. I will scroll back through the pages and read some of the other similar scenarios. I think this will help me.
Although I have been in therapy myself on and off for many years (since leaving home), I don't think most counselors or therapists I've seen recognized that my parents are both essentially little children, insatiable in their demands and wishes and that I am never heard. I believe they've concentrated on my anxiety, my depression, and "agreeable" ways of conflict resolution with them--on helping me be more assertive with them. I believe they simply did not comprehend the reality of the situation, in other words, as told by me (and I certainly didn't either until recently). In fact, this counselor who my sister and I saw alone initially told us "you don't have to cut off your parents, and the rest of your family, you can set limits..." I have another appt tommorrow and it'll be real interesting what he says now that's he's met them and seen them verbally abuse me right before his eyes! They did it so classically, too, with no inkling at all that it was even wrong to do so. They cut me down right in front of them. The really disturbing thing was that I think my brother and sister thought this was OK too. As if I deserved to be put in my place like that. I would like to unequivocally express to the counselor that I really do think the best thing for me is cutting off my parents completely at this point. If he doesn't agree, should I get a new T? Where do I find a good one, without wasting a lot of time? I'm in AZ.
Thanks again, I think I'll be needing this board often in the coming months :)
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Hi Guest,
Oy, so this happened just recently? Ouch. Well, here is a too-brief response:
1. Yes, it will be interesting to get T's feedback on the "mediation". I myself would just listen and see if I feel validated or invalidated by T's response vs. getting into an argument about the reality of what happened. If that happens, I would get a new T for sure. From the little info about your T in the post, s/he may be a little naive or inexperienced in helping relatives of mentally ill people. But I would hold out until your next appointment to see how T responds.
2. Just to couch this appropriately, no counselor should be "granting permission" for you to do anything, but discussing and supporting you emotionally as you find your way. I have not divorced my N dad yet, but I have divorced my brother and his wife. No contact as I consider SIL to be a danger to my children. End of story.
3. If you need a new counselor, I guess I would telephone new ones ahead and say you are contemplating divorcing your parents and are recovering from the narcissism in your family and listen for how it lands.
I found my first T through my insurance co referrals, and second one as a referral from my H's T...There are probably websites listing Ts in your area which will specify their expertise and give you a better idea of what they are all about. FYI, my therapy mainly focuses on my depression as well and has helped me adjust to the above mentioned "divorce". Hope this helps a little.
Take care, MP
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Hopalong:
Dear Marta,
Could you BLOCK SENDER?
And not allow those toxic hooks into your private monitor space, where you only want positive messages?
Hoppie, I thought that you kept in touch with your toxic mother yourself.
If all problems could be taken care of at the click of a button, or vanish with a new year resolution, we wouldn't be here. Life is far more complex than that. The fact is that dealing with the N bug is so enormously difficult, with such bizarre twists and turns, that even iwth the help of a T, most of us find ourselves at loss in dealing with them. Healing comes from acknowledgement of our problems, working through them layer by layer, not in naive denial of them.
Guest, you seem to have had a nightmarish experience in your dealings with your T. I highly recommend checking out David P's threads on euqally Kafkaesque experiences with T confrontation.
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Hey Marta,
I live with and take care of my elderly NMom.
So...can't "Block Sender" here.
I was just wishing you could since you said her emails can ruin your whole day.
You don't deserve that. I think of the email space as one to set up where I'm safe, at ease, contacting friends...I just try to keep the N-stuff out of here. This is safe, refuge, all that. Was just wishing that for you.
Hugs,
Hops
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Hi solayads,
It further amazes me how a Narcissist will never go about their business and leave their victims alone; even if the person who they "hounding" lets them know that they don't want any dealings with the Narcissistic anymore!
I really believe this boils down to their incomparable insecurities. I know there is some talk (mostly from Ns :x) that they really believe they are smarter and more competent than others, but I don't buy it. I think every one of them at some deep level is scared to death of the world and that they are at all moments aware of this fear at some level also. And their reason for living becomes building what they believe to be an impenetrable shield around their hollow core.
So a victim who has abandoned them or challenged them is to them like a permanent warning beacon to the world that says "hey look at this person over here. There must be something wrong with him because this other person left him or is challenging what he says."
They can't leave us alone because they're afraid of us.They're afraid that we will expose their scared little inner core to the world. They have to neutralize the threat we represent somehow. If possible, by harrassing us back into their sick fan club. If not, then by destroying our reputation so we're no longer a warning beacon to the world that they're nutty as a fruit cake, but a warning beacon to others that if you cross them this is what will happen to you.
Its kind of like the mafia. You can never leave. It doesn't matter if you promise never to speak a word of their zaniness to anyone, they are so insecure your very existence is a threat.
It is actually "second-nature" to them.
Actually I would say it is not only first nature to them, not second, I'd say its their only nature. Their entire life is a lie.
mud
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Mudpuppy said:
Actually I would say it is not only first nature to them, not second, I'd say its their only nature. Their entire life is a lie.
I think their whole life has to be a lie, or they risk exposing who they truly are inside. They are so internally damaged, that they have created their hard outer shell of lies, deceit, grandiosity, and a totally false sense of self to protect the shredded soft middle. It's tragic really, and once the anger that the victim feels has passed, the only thing left is pity.
Brigid
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Those last two posts, Mud and Brigid, are real zingers!!
I think I'll print them and re-read them 42, no, 43 times per day( :D). You two write volumes in so few words.
Going to my 49 year old cousin's funeral, just before Christmas, made me realize:
Life is just too short.
So now I accept:
...They can't leave us alone ....
...every one of them at some deep level is scared to death ....
...their whole life has to be a lie, or they risk exposing who they truly are inside.
And I agree:
...once the anger that the victim feels has passed, the only thing left is pity.
Yep. Life is too short to spend much more time trying to understand.
I'm done trying to understand.
I understand enough.
Time to do my job.....look after me.....
....get the rest of my anger out.......
PISS ON, NO DOUBLE PISS ON.... POOR THEM!!
Sela
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Hello MP:
You know, you are absolutely right. I believe I am now a threat since I left the "fold". The N's colleagues have left messages inviting me to come back; now mind you, it has been over six months since I left. I do not respond to the N's colleagues either because they are in the N's camp. Also, when I was being emotionally abused, these "concerned, loving" individuals were the same ones who stood by like "innocent observers". I have not forgotten the horror of that experience and the abandonment I felt at the time.
I have no interest in starting a "smear campaign" (although I could). But because I have a life and they are no longer a part of the equation I'm not interested in wasting my time. I have developed some new, healthy relationships over the last few months. I intend to keep doing so.
Now I can smell the foul odor of "N" behavior.
But some of the N's colleagues have inquired as to why I left. Since an "N" is only concerned about their image, what other people think about is what drives them in their sickness because they are extremely paranoid.
Since I am not the first person who left the fold, several warning beacons have already been set off. I understand what drove the others out of the fold as well.
Talking about this with others from this message board helps keep things in perspective and increases my knowledge regarding the psychological aspect of "N" behavior. The parallells that I have been reading about on this message board concerning the different "N" experiences are amazing!
Thank you for your insight!
Solayads
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Hoppie, I know it is not your intentions I question -- I know that you are a sweetie and a pal -- but wisdom in dealing with N bug. Either we live with our N moms and take care of them or banish them even from our email. Its a relic from Either Or N thinking.
Why are you still living with your N mom? You've stated elsewhere that its partly because of economic reasons, but I smell a thousand dead fishes in that. Ns raise us to be cripples, to think that we can't take care of ourselves, financially or emotionally. The first step towards freedom is breaking free of that imaginary web. You're a smart and articulte person, I don't see how you'd have trouble supporting yourself with some planning.
Mudpup, bingo, bingo, bingo.
Hugs, Marta
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Dang, hit the wrong button and my whole long answer vanished.
You're right Marta, I do fall into black and white thinking. Thanks for the reminder.
You're probably right about challenging why I live with NMom and feel economically so threatened, but it's the truth. THe notion of defending it exhausts me. I do not have the strength right now to manage the sale of her house, move her to a nursing home against her will, find a new job for myself, deal with my depression and back pain all at once. I have nothing for retirement and my job vanishes July 1. Although perhaps I should go forth exuberantly to carve out a new space, I can't pick up the chisel.
It's not psychologically correct to say I fee defeated, but it's the truth. I didn't know about N until 3 years after I moved home, My very kind Dad had always muted her Nness and brought out the best in her. I came optimistically to a fancy Internet job--thinking of sharing Ma's house as a trial or transitional thing to be re-evaulated. Then a mass layoff, and that was the first of about 8 jobs to disappear. I wasn't economically dependent when I arrived 7 years ago, but am now. I have much less income, nothing for retirement, no reserves. So free shelter (despite the emotional price) is a compromise I have accepted for now.
I really shouldn't complain about it, it gets on people's nerves.
I am getting Rx for depression after I see my doc Jan. 9. Meanwhile I'm treading water emotionally. Had to put our dog to sleep yesterday, that may be partly why I'm being limp and bleak.
Thanks,
Hopalong
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I really shouldn't complain about it, it gets on people's nerves.
Why should you not complain about it? Are you some superhuman being Hop hon?... and no it doesn't get on people's nerves. I feel this is just your defense mechanism kicking it.... you know, oh it's not that bad, remember?
You are dealing with so much hon, but I'm concerned that you say you feel defeated. What can you do in the short term to help feeling less defeated?
((((((((((((((((((((((((lots of hugs)))))))))))))))))))))))))))
H&H xx
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Just need to cry, I guess.
I really am quite depressed.
Going to see my T at noon and that'll be a safe space to let down.
It was really hard holding down my dad's scared little dog while they injected her yesterday. Sometimes I don't know how to handle all the pain and fear and fatigue. Whole ball o' wax.
Can't wait to hear how your negotiations go.
Thanks for the hugs, same back at ya.
Hops
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Well you know we're always here, if you want to cry, vent and validate your feelings... we're hear to listen.
You know your good at visualising techniques.... well that whole ball of wax of pain, fear and fatigue... it has a wick at the top, you can light it and watch that candel melt. Hope things go well with your T this afternoon. xx
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Thank you very much, H & H, for a really healing image.
I am going to use this.
I'm going to make a candle lighting ritual for myself, and think "the whole ball o' wax" and let it float up with the aroma.
I did bawl at my Ts and he was kind and gets everything, and then I've treated myself to the afternoon off. Back in the bed but not feeling anywhere near as bad as I did earlier.
SOOOOO exciting about your new job!
You deserve this! Yay! I am so happy to hear you being rewarded!
(My T reminded me to remember that I do have six months' warning and in that time, I may discover that I wind up in an even better job than the pure-survival one I have now.)
Thanks for the comfort and the inspiration too.
You're living proof good things do happen.
Gratefully,
Hopalong
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THe notion of defending it exhausts me.
Hop Darling, DONT EVER defend your decisions to us or anyone else. Only reflect upon them in a quiet hour. Feeling for you,
Marta
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Hi Hoppy,
You sound exhausted. Not defeated. Defeated would mean you have surrendered. You are still fighting! Bloody but unbowed and all that.
What you need now is a little vacation. You need some time out from under Nmum's roof. How about a weekend at a little B&B in a quiet place? A long hot bath and the phone off? An escapist film...you get it. Can you do that? It would really help you regroup and have the energy to continue your life in a much better place.
Just getting out from in the that house will help you, I think. Just for a little while.
Your dog was a person too! And you have to mourn.
Plucky
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Thanks Marta and Plucky...
right now this board IS my vacation! :)
I've done little vacations before but lately they've backfired, in terms of back pain from driving.
I really will be okay, and I'll keep venting here :)!
I appreciate this support and kindness so much.
I am eager for the Rx. I'm sure others have, as early waking is such a classic symptom, but I've noticed frequent mornings I wake up crying. Just a little, but literally: wake up, immediate tears. Just a few but what a strong message. Today it was, I woke up crying and saying to myself, "Safe harbor."
I have a running half-serious joke with my T about how long, ethically, I'd have to stop being his client before we can have coffee, socialize, and get married. He laughs and says two years, so I tell him, well hurry up and get me better. If you're really efficient maybe we can shave it a few months!
:) :)He is kind and I do feel safe with him, so I'm sure that's what my pysche was up to this a.m.
Silly.
Everybody, want to wish you a happy, peaceful, calm and hopeful day. Thanks for all you do to bring those things into my life, over and over.
Hopalong
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I have a running half-serious joke with my T about how long, ethically, I'd have to stop being his client before we can have coffee, socialize, and get married. He laughs and says two years, so I tell him, well hurry up and get me better. If you're really efficient maybe we can shave it a few months!
Hmmmmmmm. Call me a paranoid if you will, but my antennae goes up......
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I have a running half-serious joke with my T about how long, ethically, I'd have to stop being his client before we can have coffee, socialize, and get married. He laughs and says two years, so I tell him, well hurry up and get me better. If you're really efficient maybe we can shave it a few months!
Hmmmmmmm. Call me a paranoid if you will, but my antennae goes up......
Oh I don't know... From what I've read it's not that unusual to have thoughts about having a relationship with your therapist (Maybe Dr G can verify this?). At long as it's a joke, and it's treated as such so there are no expectations, then what harm can it do?
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May be because a running joke keeps them up alive, adds a certain eroticism and electricity to the relationship? Its not unusual to have such thoughts, but it is a transgression of a boundary by the T. After all, you wouldn't make such jokes with your boss or prof, even if you had such thoughts. Now this comes from a T abuse survivor, so it is sprinkled with a fair bit of paranoia.
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Well over a year ago, my therapist and I were having a discussion about the kind of man I would like to have in my life and eventually remarry. I told him if he was single (he was very happily married), I would marry him in a heartbeat. After many more months of therapy, I realized that I saw him more as a father figure (he was 5 years younger than I) than as a potential mate.
I think, in my case, that those deep, caring feelings I had for him were beneficial to my healing and my ability to open up to him. I know that there are abusive T's who would take advantage of such a situation, but hopefully Hoppy has her antennae up and would see a red flag if one presented itself.
Brigid
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Hey, I hear you.
No, I"ve been seeing this T off and on for 5+ years and he's never, ever, done or suggested anything inappropriate. He doesn't have as rigid boundaries as some Ts I've known in terms of letting on the very occasional piece of info about his own life, but he's professional and proper.
We have a degree of ease together...but it was my own boundary stuff, not his. I'm the one who started the joke. We're quite compatible and have a lot in common intellectually.
I asked because it's my occasional fantasy and I do realize he likes me a bit. He's decent and ethical and never in the slightest seductive. I think what's actually happened over the years is that there is some degree of friendship that's grown. I don't think that's a crime.
I have a date this Sat. with the divorced fellow I was emailing. So far haven't enjoyed his emails much, they're either show-offy or pedantic (pot calling kettle), so there's truly some ick factor. But I promised to meet him so I will. Won't hurt to test the reality vs. email anyway. See if what I thought were pink flags look that way in person.
Sigggh. Bleaaah.
Hopalong
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Here's a good article on T boundary issues.
http://www.drzur.com/boundariesintherapy.html
I have heard of Ts and long-time clients becoming friends, or even more, after literally years have passed since the end of therapy. I think there is some ethically-approved time-lapse but I dunno what it is. But I am happy he is my T and I'm not quitting anytime soon anyway!
Hopalong