Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: onlyrenting on January 03, 2006, 06:42:40 PM
-
I would like some thoughts about cutting.
My D is 13 and admitting she has cut her arms and legs. I wonder if it's all about attention.
She says it's not and she can't stop. I asked her why she would do this she won't say.
He N-dad writes her 3 times a week, I have to screen the letters but he e-mails her and can call her anytime.
He will tell her how bad I am and how he is not healthy with more back surgeries in the near future.
I don't know it its the communication from him and her not knowing what to do with her pain so she cuts.
I'm looking for what may help her stop.
Will exercise help to pump up the endorphines??
I had taken her to a T, to help deal with the divorce, she admitted then what she had been doing for over 1 year. She said a girl on "The New World " was cutting, so she tried it and now can't stop.
The T, has not put her on meds but tried music with headphones to help with stress.
After the she first admitted what she was doing, she said she stopped but I found yesterday she had a mark on her arm. She keep very busy with friends and says she know other kids that do the same.
Appreciate any advise... OR
-
Hello Onlyrenting:
I know of other cases of young girls who cut themselves. What it amounts to is she is resorting to physical pain to relieve herself of emotional anguish. Cutting provides a form of distraction and a sense of relief from the "sting" of her emotional trauma. Her father might really be stressing her out by unloading his problems and issues on her. She cannot handle it, she is only 13.
You may be able to counteract some of the damage he is inflicting on her psychologically by getting her to confide in you what her father is telling her. Also let her father know what he is doing to his daughter (if you haven't already). Don't argue with him, just be very blunt about.
After you find out what is on her mind, and she confides in you what she is hiding, it will help her to alleviate some of her disquieting thoughts.
It will take some time, but rechanneling her pain into words will help. The more she talks, the less she will cut.......you'll see the difference.
Keep us posted.
Solayads
-
I too was a cutter, and started at the same age, started at 12, continued on and off through 15. (I'm now 34).
I had an N-ish mom.
As a teen, and younger, my parents did not allow me to have my own emotional space. They did not honor my emotional expressions. I did not know how voice my confused emotions. Additionally, they did not listen to me when I asserted what I wanted.
Cutting was a way of releasing otherwise unexpressable potboiler of emotional turmoil. Cutting was a private activity that asserts ownership of ones body, one's boundaries...Cutting, for me, was also a way for me to reenact how my boundaries were routinely violated by family members.
Think about it: your skin is your boundary with the world. The act of cutting onesself makes perfect sense if, psycologically, one feels like one doesn't have skin. The pain from cutting is a real reminder that I have a boundary, somewhere, and this time, I'm the one violating it...
Let her be who she is. This means, allow her emotional privacy. DON'T pry and ask her why she's doing it, she probably doesn't understand herself. DON'T ask her what she talks about with her therapist.
Instead, think about how concerned you are, and express that. NOT in a "Stop that you're hurting me" way - my mom tried that, it didn't do anything, it turned the conversation into being about her feelings.
Common sense points at the N-parent (what patterns of controlling/boundary violating behavor were there before? That set the stage for her to be in this place now...) but also other stressors in her life may be influencing her behavior. Part of it, for me, was also about dealing with all the powerful changes my body was going through, that nobody was discussing, in my family. Mom handed me a book and walked away. I felt totally alone and subject to everything my body was doing. Also the stress at school, and being treated as a sex object by boys and even adult men, was horrible for me. That was my stress. Your daughter's stress may be totally different.
My advice: Just spend non-pressured time together, talk about other stuff, hang out. Respect her boundaries as much as you can. Talk to your therapist about your fears of the consequences of your exN's behaviors on your child, so that you don't project your fears onto her. Let go.
You can't control how she's acting out. You can provide a nourishing, nurturing home environment where SHE can set the boundaries with her N-father, where her voice can be heard.
The cutting is just a symptom of something else. Work with the something else, and the cutting will go away.
Good luck and god bless...
Andromeda
-
I used to teach 8th grade (13 and 14 year olds). Several of my students were cutters. People often mistakenly say that kids cut because they hate themselves and want to hurt themselves. But from my experience it is the opposite. Many kids say that they feel better after cutting. Self abuse and self injury are outlets for a teen to release the tension of extreme emotion, pressure or trauma.. Other times kids start cutting after a loss or major trauma in their life. They say that they feel numb, and cutting is the only time that they feel anything.
It may not beanything to do with her father. It could just be teen angst without healthy ways to deal with it. Most kids who cut tend to feel like loners and like they don't fit in anywhere.
Keep her talking. Help her find ways to vent her pent up emotions like physical activity, talking, hobbies, therapy.
Be VERY careful about what music she is listening to. Head phones tend to make her isolate herself. It will only have a negative effect. Also a lot of music today glamorizes cutting. Emo, goth, and hard core heavy metal tend to be the worst. Several musicians cut onstage and sing about it. Marilyn Manson, Fiona Apple, Richey Edwards, have all admitted to cutting.
pages to look at
http://anthology.self-injury.net/section/music.php
http://self-injury.net/doyousi/famous/
-
hi, OR.
I can only imagine your own pain and fear in finding you child in such a situation. I wish I had solid advice for you, but I have only known one cutter in my life and I cannot draw any comparisons that might help you.
Please know that I am sending you both love, light and healing, and I will keep you in my heart.
-
Oh my god OR,
Just when it seemed like you were gaining a victory over that jerk, he uses your child to get to you.
I DONT think taht she's doing it for attention, for god's sake. I think you have to be very, very careful in your relationship with your D and how you talk to her about her father. She may not be ready to hear the full truth.
She sounded like such a sweet and gentle kid. I feel for you both. Hang in there and with your love you will set things right.
Marta
-
Cutters very rarely do it for attention. As Andromeda said, it is something private. They go to great lengths to hide it. One of the signs of cutting is wearing long sleeves (to cover the wounds) all the time in the summer.
-
Hi OR,
all I know about cutting I learned from this board but there are also some books out there. I've got no practical advice. Maybe someone can recommend some reading. I'm sorry this had to crop up but I applaud you for not ignoring it or hoping it goes away on its own. There's no rest for the weary, is there? Sending you warmth and strength.
Plucky
PS the communications from your X sounds completely inappropriate. Is there anything you can do about the emails or calls? Can you politely advise your daughter that she is not obligated to accept communication from anyone if she does not want to?
-
Hi OR
I really feel for you. This must be such a difficult thing to deal with and also to know what to do for the best.
I agree with the others, that she's not doing it for attention... that it is a symptom of an emotional problem.
Can you talk to a GP or ring her therapist to find out the best way to deal with it?
As I grew up with a N dad who was divorced from Mum, there is the possibility that it may not be N dad, that it may be other things going on in her life, like something at school maybe? The other thing that concerned me, coming from someone with divorced parents, is screening his letters. My Mum used to read my letters and I felt violated, that it wasn't her place to read them. What happens to letters that you feel is inappropriate? Does she see these letters? This may sound odd, but I feel that you are possibly not allowing her to make up her own mind. I feel that you could still keep the lines of communication open, by ensuring she has the option to come to you if she doesn't like something he's said, then that may be a better way to approach it.
Take care
H&H xx
-
Be VERY careful about what music she is listening to. Head phones tend to make her isolate herself. It will only have a negative effect. Also a lot of music today glamorizes cutting. Emo, goth, and hard core heavy metal tend to be the worst.
Please, please don't try to control what music your daughter listens to. Please respect her boundaries. Music is very important to teens. Talk with her about why she likes stuff, listen to it yourself. Emo, goth, and hardcore metal actually provide kids with language for expressing difficult emotions.
If you listen to the music she is listening to, you might get a window onto what she's feeling right now.
Andromeda
-
Hello Everyone:
I must chime in regarding the comments on music. Some music --- not all-- does draw out some really violent, depressing or even oppressive images in young minds. Since music appeals to different emotions and can draw out different emotional responses, the power of suggestion could come into play. The same goes for violent video games. Who can say that it does not have any effect on kids at all?
Parents really do need to provide guidance; that's guidance, when it comes to the types of entertainment that their kids have. Kids should not be left alone to raise themselves. That would be just as abusive. And since all children are not the same, some need more guidance in certain areas than others. Again, I'm using the word guidance; not dictatorship.
The teenage years are the most formative and can be the most confusing. A little healthy direction from a concerned and loving parent(even one parent) is better than none at all. A little supportive and helpful conversation can go a long way when presented at the right time.
Sometimes a heart to heart conversation is the only way to reach in and pull a child out of trouble.
Correct me if I'm wrong.......
Solayads
-
I agree, Solyads.
Not into censorship, but I believe our culture has grown more powerfully brutal, and harmful, in its messages, than we are able to imaginatively keep up with.
There's a falling-toward-the-basest-possible kind of direction. It's real, it's a threat to our kids. We've sunk a long way from being prudish and repressive to an all-out assault on young pysches that really CAN'T process all that they're subjected to.
Personally, I think it's all of a piece with war, unbridled agression and greed, blindness to bullying, etc.
Venting is one thing...but there are SO many healthy ways to teach that. Art, dance, CREATING music rather than accepting into your head for hours what's pumped by IPods, artists sponsored by huge corporations who've just picked up that rage is a profit center.
No, don't squash them or teach that anger or sex are "bad." But for godssake, teach them a wide and creative range of human outlets for it...not just those provided by commerce.
My two cents.
Hopalong
-
this is an email I sent to a friend about 3 years ago on this topic:
Sorry to hear your niece is having problems.
Not knowing your sister or niece it is hard to speak other than very generally and I apologise in advance if I state the bleedin' obvious or if anything I say doesn't apply to them or sounds half-assed, I don't have time to rewrite it or read this thoroughly, but it might give you some ideas.
Yes, I have known many young people cut themselves; it can be one of the more shocking acting-out behaviours for onlookers, as most of us have an automatic reaction of horror to blood and injury.
There's a taboo about it too, people don't often discuss it.
( My brother did it, I never knew until years later, my stupid father said later he thought it was a ritual all boys do! )
I always tried to deal with it calmly at work, helping the person clean up and trying to discuss what had happened in the run-up to cutting, particularly the feelings.
As you probably know self-injury is an attempt to deal with emotional distress or pain: it's a release.
People who do it have issues of insecurity, poor self-image and self-worth and unresolved anger.
Self-injury occurs on a continuum, from a short-lived episode drawing attention to problems right through to borderline personality disorder.
Young people need support to prevent their embarrassment becoming a cycle of shame, especially when they feel they aren't what they ought to be in some way. There is a lot of pressure on them to be what other people think they should be rather than for them to gradually evolve into themselves.
I think the words 'should' and 'ought' have a strong place in the British psyche, and young people are dropped onto a conveyor-belt of conventional school education in Britain, so parents don't always feel confident to be imaginative, to find creative solutions to their family needs ( when I home-schooled I lost count of the number of British people who criticised me or thought it was weird...yet no one from overseas commented negatively )
If your sister thinks her daughter is suicidal then professional help is needed urgently: all suicide ideation should be taken seriously http://kidshelp.sympatico.ca/en/resources/sub_suicide.asp is a good Canadian kids' website with some warning signs/ advice.
Self-mutilation is often unrelated to suicide though- a faulty coping mechanism; other young people might take drugs or get drunk or sleep around.
Does your niece have a counsellor or psychiatrist?
Does she need to speak to someone outside the family?
Personally I would organise professional help if the cutting continued if it were my child, and she were open to it.
There may be something she is uncomfortable talking to parents about, also if your sister gets upset then she may struggle to express herself not wanting to further distress her mum.
Are there family problems which need addressing?
Also bear in mind that if she has depression she may need medication.
Your sister could read up on communication skills and particularly 'faulty thinking' which is behind so many psychological struggles http://www.rational.org.nz/public/intro.htm outlines the basics.
Adolescents are notorious 'black and white' thinkers, and what is trivial to older people they take very seriously, and extrapolate far beyond what is actually going on.
If she doesn't fit well with her current peers it may seem like the end of the world to her: that she will never fit in anywhere.
Parents need to teach their children about respecting and valuing their bodies, and should ideally be role models:easier said than done I know.
Some helpful ways to avoid cutting include learning to:
accept reality ( check out 12 ideas which cause or sustain neurosis, Albert Ellis http://www.ship.edu/~cgboeree/ellis.html )
identify feelings and talk them out/ write them down rather than acting on them.
distract themselves from feelings of self-harm for example, counting to ten, waiting 15 minutes, practicing breathing exercises, writing, drawing, thinking about positive images, using ice and rubber bands, repeat a mantra.
practice positive stress management. Yoga and meditation are excellent for improving wellbeing. Exercise.
I can't overstress the role of breathing exercises in the management of emotions.
There are lots of books and articles about building self-esteem eg http://www.buildselfesteem.homestead.com/ has some ideas for parents.
It is especially difficult for young people who feel 'different', after all, most of their childhood they are encouraged to 'fit in'.
The internet is a valuable resource for learning to accept yourself with numerous support or interest groups eg. http://www.sensitiveperson.com/
I personally rejoiced when I discovered Myers-Briggs Personality Profiling and tested INFJ ( the rarest profile http://www.typelogic.com/infj.html ) because it filled in so many gaps, helped explain why I get so involved with the things I do!
I joined a mailing list for a while and made two good friends.
If she has scarring then she may need support to accept it. There's some gel they sell here which reduces scar tissue- I can find out about it if you like and post some.
Lastly, a couple of good links for the families of people who self-injure
http://www.selfhelpmagazine.com/articles/depress/violence.html
http://crystal.palace.net/~llama/psych/
Remember that although your sister and her daughter are in pain now, it is not forever: this too shall pass.
Encourage your sister to take extra care of herself so that she has the resources to support her daughter, and not get overwhelmed.
It's really hard being a parent when your children are struggling and you just want to make things right.
Reassure her they'll work through it.
I'm sure your emails and letters and calls are a big source of encouragement and support.
-
Thank you all so much, I wonder on a scale of 1-10 is this a 10.
I dropped off D at youth group and decided to talk to the youth pastor regarding my D's cutting. He is very sad and tells me how much he like my D, she always appears happy and fun to be around.
He says they have experience in this area and want to help her.
Write,
I went on a few web sites and found some good advise on how to help stop cutting
I printed the information but my D just fluffed it off. Maybe she will read it.
I took her for a long bike ride telling her how much I love her and wanted to help her love her self keeping up with exersice and a healthy diet. We went shopping she picked out lots of great food to cook and we agreed the dinner was good. We had lots of green vegies with some shrimp.. yum!!
Solayads The more she talks, the less she will cut.......you'll see the difference.
I want to talk but she can shut me down, so I suggested she find a good friend to call when she feels the need to cut.
Since music appeals to different emotions and can draw out different emotional responses, the power of suggestion could come into play. The same goes for violent video games. Who can say that it does not have any effect on kids at all?
I do agree about the effects, how much is too much. Music is a big part of a teens life, giving direction but her own space is a fine line.
I do listen to what she wants to listen to and will reach for a teachable moment asking her opinion about a song. She tells me it's the beat mom.... I know some of the words are scary and finding the right balance is always a chore.
Andromeda
Cutting was a private activity that asserts ownership of ones body, one's boundaries...Cutting, for me, was also a way for me to reenact how my boundaries were routinely violated by family members.
You can't control how she's acting out. You can provide a nourishing, nurturing home environment where SHE can set the boundaries with her N-father, where her voice can be heard.
If you listen to the music she is listening to, you might get a window onto what she's feeling right now.
After 9mos of being away from the N-H her voice is being heard. She is getting stonger every day in this area.
I know this is a struggle for us both.
I know she is feeling nourshied at home but finds school a struggle and how to fit in.
MuM
Please know that I am sending you both love, light and healing, and I will keep you in my heart.
Thanks so much, I need all the light for this darkness and knowing others send their love is encouragement we both need.
Marta
She sounded like such a sweet and gentle kid. I feel for you both. Hang in there and with your love you will set things right.
My heart is broken, but she is broken too and all I want to do is help her heal
Singledad
Most kids who cut tend to feel like loners and like they don't fit in anywhere.
Be VERY careful about what music she is listening to. Head phones tend to make her isolate herself. It will only have a negative effect. Also a lot of music today glamorizes cutting. Emo, goth, and hard core heavy metal tend to be the worst. Several musicians cut onstage and sing about it. Marilyn Manson
She does feel like the kids who are emo are less stressful to compete with. Preppy even though she is a cheerleader, she doesn't like having to worry about expensive dress they require to fit in
Plucky
I applaud you for not ignoring it or hoping it goes away on its own.
PS the communications from your X sounds completely inappropriate
I found bringing the darkness to the light is so much better than trying to figure this out on my own.
Healing&Hopeful
What happens to letters that you feel is inappropriate? Does she see these letters? This may sound odd, but I feel that you are possibly not allowing her to make up her own mind. I feel that you could still keep the lines of communication open, by ensuring she has the option to come to you if she doesn't like something he's said, then that may be a better way to approach it.
My D does not know I see all the letters sometimes she leaves them laying around other times I seal them back up with tape.
I have to go pick her up from youth group
Hope I got every one OR
-
the other thing none of us has said is: look at any teenage scenario as a whole.
Only the people closest to her can know if it's an attention seeking thing, or what happens if you ignore the cutting.
WTF???
-
She's been doing it for a year...At least she has reached a point where she's talking about it...
Wow, so much discussion here...Some other thoughts:
OR, this might be a tough one to think about: please imagine me saying this in the gentlist way possible:
I was very alienated from my mom at 13. When I was 12, and my body started changing, she handed me a book about it. We never had a discussion about what I was feeling, how everything was changing for me. She just gave me stuff to read. It wasn't an exchange of ideas; I never expressed how powerless I felt about everything - kids at school, cliques, various overwhelming pressures (ie taking care of my anorexic friends - you know, 'you're only popular with anorexia' - a Tori Amos lyric :) she's a popular godmother of emo music) my body doing its thing...she handed me a book.
What I wanted was a hug, and time to cry with her accepting my confused emotions without being told to stop crying because she couldn't listen to her own tears.
OR, I know how hard it is to live with someone who is in crisis - the cutting is SO IMMEDIATE and it demands IMMEDIATE OH MY GOD ATTENTION. Take a deep, deep breath. Because an immediate solution is not going to happen.
With the N-dad out of the picture so recently, you both are healing, you both are navigating new territory: learning to be healthy with yourselves and each other. That's going to mean ALOT of human moments, of being vulnerable with each other, and learning that being vulnerable with each other is safe to do.
How are you taking care of yourself in this? How are you feeling, OR?
Its OK to feel powerless and freaked out. That's part of the acceptance-of-what-is process.
Take really good care of yourself right now. So she can see what thats like. Actions speak louder than words...
Sending many hugs and gentleness your way. Resolution will come. Deep breaths.
Much, much love. Be well.
Andromeda
-
I only have a moment will return soon
Her pastor talked to her last night, he said “someone told him about her cutting and asked her to call him on his cell phone, whenever she felt the need to cut.
This pastor baptized her, she has respect for him and he may help with missing her father.
Jacmac
I may have a very radical approach to child rearing, but I whole-heartedly believe that most of the formative rearing that will be done for a child can ONLY be done during the first 7 years of a childs life, and if pressed, I would say the first 5 years. After that, I think what parents can do is only build upon and reenforce the foundation that has already been layed.
I would have some encouragement here, during her first 5 years I stayed home with her.
I had a short battle with cancer and the department I worked in for 10 years had transferred out of state. I decided to stay with her until she could enroll in school. I do feel that 5 years gives me an edge where she trust me to take care of her with love. I can sense the pain from the last 5 years with her N-father taking care of her has scared her. We have watched him on disability for over 5 years and on medication slowly becoming unreachable, unstable and learning he is N among other emotional problems.
so I pray she will reach in her past to remember the care I gave her as a young child.
I must leave to pick up D from cheer
-
I only have another minute
Write : Only the people closest to her can know if it's an attention seeking thing, or what happens if you ignore the cutting.
1. If she tells me she learned this behavior from a TV show, and now can't stop. What does that say for influence of the TV.
2. She wants to fit in here, being new and from out of state she knows others who do cut and wants to feel excepted.
3. If this compulsive behavior a personality disorder can this be treated with medication or some other method.
4. If her life is so broken will she ever overcome the damage, how sad if she does not heal before more damage is done.
Andromeda OR, I know how hard it is to live with someone who is in crisis - the cutting is SO IMMEDIATE and it demands IMMEDIATE OH MY GOD ATTENTION. Take a deep, deep breath. Because an immediate solution is not going to happen.
I will take a deep breath, give my D lots of hugs and keep communication open as best I can.
I will not give up and work with her to heal the pain I blame myself for.
I feel so bad about her wanting to hurt herself, I will try and accept this and move on to learn and share with other how have traveled this road
OR ( I have to leave again )
-
4. If her life is so broken will she ever overcome the damage, how sad if she does not heal before more damage is done.
She is only 13. She has time to heal. Look at all of us who just started healing well into adulthood, without support form parents! She has a good chance.
Plucky
-
I think you're doing everything right.
It's such a tightrope with children- say too much and they think you're trying to run their lives, say too little they think you don't care! Sometimes it feels like you just can't ever get it right, I know.
But it's not healthy to let them manipulate you either.
( I've only just realised that a lot of my son's flamboyant temper tantrums are an attempt to do just that...)
There was an article in the Observer a while back here it is http://observer.guardian.co.uk/focus/story/0,6903,718183,00.html which pointed out how cutting has almost become 'fashionable'.
Take care (((((((((((((((((((()))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
~W
-
the pain I blame myself for
OR, you've been an amazingly resourceful mother, rescuing your daughter from an N ex, not everyone can do that, you love her and care for her to do all you can to protect her from all this, our parents didn't do that for us. You may have made ypour fair share of mistakes, who doesn't, but to trash yourself as a bad parent is simply uncalled for and helps neither d nor you. She has a near psychopath for a father who's put her through a lot. It's bound to have an imapct on her life.
I know you are bound to go through a lot of extreme reactions right now, but anchor yourself to the reality and know that you are a great mother.
Love, Marta
-
(((((((((((((OR)))))))))))))
Teenagers do lots of things for lots of different reasons. This is not your fault and you mustn't blame yourself. Although I'm not a parent, I do see the difficulties that face parents today. Your daughter has been through a lot already, living with you, then living with her dad and now moving and a new school etc etc. Starting a new school is always a stressful time in any childs life.
Depending on what her dad is like, she could have self worth issues. So maybe another way to deal with this is to do things that help her to feel worthwhile.... whether that could be having a makeover, doing something for charity, or even just letting her chill out and spend time with her Mum.
You are a good Mum.... and I feel you are being harsher on yourself than anyone else is.
Keep us updated.... thinking of you both.
H&H xx
-
Hiya ((((((((((((((((((((((((((OR)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))):
Sorry......I'm late again getting to this thread. Never enough time to read and post.
I will not give up and work with her to heal the pain I blame myself for.
!. That's my heroine, OR, talking.......who will not give up....who has tried so hard and come so far and done soooooooooooo much to survive and thrive in an awful situation!! Keep going OR!!
and
2. Exactly what have you done to cause the pain? Did you threaten to shoot yourself? Do you have mental problems that were causing your spouse to live in fear? Do you write letters to your daughter trying to manipulate and upset her? Is it your fault that the only safe thing to do was to get away......far away......to some place safe???
You know who is doing/has done those things OR, and where the fault lies. My guess is.......that person is the one to blame for causing the pain!! You've done nothing but try to prevent more of it......and to heal it!!
You have taken your daughter for help. You have taken her away from a bad situation....very bravely....on the run......such a long distance. You've been patient. You are so concerned....always.....for her. You've managed through the stress of a new home, a new town, a new job, the new process of trying to get custody, and divorce proceedings, financial stuff, etc, etc, etc.
Please do not beat yourself up any more! Keep doing your best!! You are a fantastic mother and whatever pain your daughter is feeling is not from you or your actions!! Please tell yourself this and believe it!!
((((((((((((OR)))))))))))))))
Sela
-
Hey OR,
Settle down girl. This isn't a personality disorder and it isn't your fault.
"Train a child up in the way of the Lord and when he is old he (or she) will not depart from it."
It doesn't say there won't be a few bumps along the way, but please don't think this is some irreversible thing. If you continue to love her and support her she will get through it.
Teenagers do lots of dumb things in reaction to trauma or insecurities. But they're almost always just stages that they grow out of. The trick is to protect them and hold onto them without smothering them so they can find the solution, with some guidance.
Now obviously some do go over the edge, but they are usually neglected and fiercely abused. Your D isn't. Your idiot ex is far away and you are by her side. You're doing fine. Just use your God given patience and love.
One last verse relating to patience. "Those who wait on the Lord will renew their strength."
You're everyone's hero here. We know you'll renew your strength.
mud
-
My mind is just scared, next Friday the 13th will be court by phone and as the time gets near the reality of my welcomed divorce I must face it's outcome.
Sela
Exactly what have you done to cause the pain?
Is it your fault that the only safe thing to do was to get away
nothing but try to prevent more of it......and to heal it!!
I believed staying in the relationship was to protect her. With a remote chance of joint custody I felt staying would give her better protection, this made sense but maybe I was wrong.
Her father tells her lies and defending myself is not something she wants to hear.
I will get stronger and fell better after the divorce is over and decisions are made.
mudpuppy
Those who wait on the Lord will renew their strength."
Tonight I drove the girls to the indoor skate board park, on the way my D received a phone call.
(I don't know more that what I heard)
D was being asked if she knew about something that happened at school today.
She is telling the caller his girl friend who was hurting herself (I don't know how) D went to the school counselor to let them know the girl needs help and the caller should not be upset at D or think she's not cool for saving the girls life (I don't know how much drama this is ) I just now got back after dropping them off we reached our destination before I could find out details.
I'm impressed that she understands the darkness of what she is seeing and brave enough to stand up for what she believed was important. She felt her friends life was in danger and wanted to find her help. I would hope the girl was not cutting and got carried away.
I felt she almost wanted me to hear this conversation, being confident to tell the caller she had concerns and believed she was doing the right thing to help her friend stop hurting herself no matter if it made her uncool.
Marta
anchor yourself to the reality and know that you are a great mother
My reality can be difficult to explain sometimes to my D, I must sit alone sometimes and trust she understands she has a great mother. I find my confidence gets stronger and will tell her how lucky she is to have me as her mother. Kids don't see it but I tell her I would like her to confide in me she does sometimes but she says she just doesn't want me to know everything. I must respect her wishes and expect a time will come when she wants to share.
Plucky
Look at all of us who just started healing well into adulthood
This is so true, my life and the decisions I made were generated from the lack of love, understanding and rejection. I would not want to watch my D have any part of that pain the fear can overwhelm me.
I would not want her to feel lost or rebel like I did that frightens me very much.
jacmac
Feelings of blame and shame do nothing but keep you mired with guilt
OK, OK I'm sorry I said I felt blame, your correct to dwell in guilt does nothing good.
I will trust my D to walk through this and grow to understand what is healthy and wonderful about her life.
I LOVE you all for being here for me, thank you ..... OR
-
I had a feeling there was more troubling you, you always seem so confident as a mother. I mean knowing it's right to just sit it out sometimes, I guess, and not have to have all the answers.
I don't think you should blame anyone- get out of that cycle. You did what you thought was best at different stages. When it was best to end the marriage, you did it.
Ex is who he is, and like me you're stuck with the situation, and there's nothing you can do to explain npd or any of the other stuff in a way she will accept and understand. She has to discover it all for herself. And she will, nothing you can do will protect her from some of the things he will say or do over the years. Or maybe he'll change. Who knows, and I hope he does, and turns out to be a great dad for her. Of course then she'll wonder why you divorced him...see- you can't win either way on that one.
I will get stronger and fell better after the divorce is over and decisions are made.
absolutely, it's one of the most stressful things in life.
And btw I would have no other outcome for us than joint custody if it were anyway earthly possible- I said from when we first split that if we were going to fight over him my husband could raise our son; I'm sure that shook him up enough to realise he didn't want to win that particular battle...
And it's an ending as much as a beginning. Divorce I mean. It's something I haven't had to face yet but if we were I know my son would feel it too, he's always saying 'but you won't divorce?' even though we've been separated 2 years.
She is telling the caller his girl friend who was hurting herself (I don't know how) D went to the school counselor to let them know the girl needs help and the caller should not be upset at D or think she's not cool for saving the girls life (I don't know how much drama this is ) I just now got back after dropping them off we reached our destination before I could find out details.
I'm impressed that she understands the darkness of what she is seeing and brave enough to stand up for what she believed was important. She felt her friends life was in danger and wanted to find her help. I would hope the girl was not cutting and got carried away.
I felt she almost wanted me to hear this conversation, being confident to tell the caller she had concerns and believed she was doing the right thing to help her friend stop hurting herself no matter if it made her uncool.
I'm sure you're right on the 'drama' but it's great she felt comfortable talking with you there, and wanted to show you an inside view of what's happening.
Did you see the article from the Observer, and how some of the schools had waves of this cutting behaviour?
Maybe your daughter can find a new 'fitting-in' role around the behaviour which involves her helping and befriending the others rather than cutting herself?
When I was young and wanted to hang with the cool kids I couldn't handle sex or alcohol or most things without the resulting out-of-control scaring the hell out of me. So I cleaned up vomit, held hands when people broke up & thought they would die- funny now they probably wouldn't remember even a name, went to the doctor and once the abortion clinic...and got accepted for who I was without having to do all that stuff and not laughed at too much for playing in church and writing a musical.
Take extra care of yourself over the next few days- make sure you get a bit of 'me' time and extra vitamins, maybe a walk or too and a good book and your favourite ice cream.
I know you're a mother, but it's your divorce too.
xoxox
-
Wrtie thank you for being so insite full, The Big D is full of drama and never fun for anyone.
I sometimes try and forget about but I know once the courts decide what to do, my life will change.
Write
Did you see the article from the Observer, and how some of the schools had waves of this cutting behaviour?
Thank you, I just sat down to read the article, I have a few minutes before I leave again to pick up the girls
I got some really good insite and feel better that it's more about growing up in this generation and maybe she is doing what the other kids are doing to fit in.
Maybe your daughter can find a new 'fitting-in' role around the behaviour which involves her helping and befriending the others rather than cutting herself?
This would be such a great way to fit in and maybe would allow her to feel part of the solution and not part of the problem.
I have to leave ...OR
-
Bless your heart, OR, you are being SO hard on yourself.
I think you are a champion, a very tired champion, plunging toward the finish line.
You are stressed and exhausted from this marathon but there's a whole crowd of people standing just ahead of you cheering you on, holding out bottles of water and ready to hug you at the finish line!
YOU WILL MAKE IT!!
Just rest and do take good nourishing care of yourself.
Any little thing, a bath, a walk, a prayer, some music, calling and talking and especially right now, maybe set aside some time to be in nature.
Just looooooook at something natural, living, beautiful, quiet. Remind yourself you belong here, you have a right to be here, you are a good human being, nature allows mistakes, you love your child and she doggone well knows it...
You really will make it.
(((((((( OR))))))))
Hopalong
-
I've worked with young people who cut themselves and have read up on the subject, so i'd like to add my comments, partly on a very practical level about the actual cutting, if I may (apologies if I repeat what others have said, as always here this thread is full of compassion and wisdom).
Although this seems an extreme and repulsive behaviour, it is normally not dangerous and is in fact potentially less harmful than a lot of other ways teenagers may choose to help themselves through difficult times. She could be smoking, drinking, doing drugs, sleeping around or indulging in other risky beahviours - she has chosen to cut.
The most helpful attitude from parents is a calm one. If she thinks you are going to freak out or cry when she tells you what she is done or feels like doing, she won't tell you. Also, as someone else said, this is about her, not you - if you get upset you make it about you.
Please don't try to stop her (I don't get the impression you are doing this, but I feel it's important to say that). It's her coping mechanism - if she is stopped, how will she cope? Cutting is not suicidal behaviour, but there is some evidence that thwarting the urge to cut can lead to suicidal impulses in some people. There are very strong biochemical urges in the brain which are relieved by the cutting - the flow of endorphins which follows any injury provides temporary relief from the emotonal pain she is experiencing. Later on though she may characteristically feel guitly and miserable. If she tells you what she has done at that point, of course she will be in particular need of love and support.
It is helpful to ensure that she knows where the first aid box is and can clean and dress her cuts if she needs to. Or if she asks you for help, that you can provide it calmly. That is part of being in control for her - some people (usually adults) become very ritualistic about this. If she has been cutting for a year and you didn't know about it, that strongly suggests that the cutting is physically very minor, which is a good sign. When poeople cut deeply or repeatedly on the same wound, then obviously they run the risk of more serious bleeding, whiich would lead to blood on her sheets and possibly a need for stitches. It sounds like she is not doing this kind of thing, so the actual physical harm she is doing will be minimal and may not lead to any scarring.
By the way, sometimes parents become very alarmed if the child is cutting around their wrists. If they are superficial cuts across the wrist (that is, not in the direction from elbow to fingers, but across) then this is perfectly harmless. It is quite difficult to sever the artery in the wrist and it can't be done with this sort of cutting.
The most hopeful news is that there is strong evidence that people grow out of the need to cut. It is relatively common in the teens and early twenties but many people do stop, usually without any particular help or treatment. As they become adult they naturally have more control in their lives and no longer feel the need to create control for themselves in this way. So the key to helping her reach that point has to be - support her lovingly, and help her have control in her life. I wish you well.
-
My daughter did minor cutting in high school when I was married to her Nstepdad, we had moved to a new state, and she was isolated within her peer group. She also did it some the first year of college after her Dad died. I looked at it calmly as I could but it was upsetting. At one point she inserted safety pins through her forearm in a little row. From there she quit cutting and discovered a form of self-injury that has a whole support network around it--tattoos! Oy.
I worried so much about her I thought I would explode from terror (and of course, guilt).
Three weeks ago, mid-year, after a long struggle and dropping out twice and re-enrolling, she graduated. She also quit smoking cigarettes a year ago. She's planning on grad school.
Don't give up on your daughter. The transition to adulthood is the biggest storm of life. But I think the fact that she was talking to her friend in the car while you were there was a blatant way to say to you, "I feel safe with you. I want you in my world." You must be doing something right that shows her your persistent love.
Bless you for your mothering, OR.
Bless yourself, you deserve it.
Respect,
Hopalong
-
Hi OR,
My heart goes out to you... My daughter cut for a while and I know the pain and helplessness that goes with being a mother around this issue. Many of my daughters friends were also doing this at the time, but it started with her after my partner died. She blamed herself for a long time... Of course Hopalong is right and the guilt was massive but the main thing for me was to just try and be a stable and consistent presence. Of course as you can see from my other posts I did not do a great job of stable but consistently loving a child nomatter what you both go through and letting them know that every day, goes a long long way.
I was advised to read 'A bright red scream' by Marilee Strong. It explores the reasoning and meaning behind this complex act...
My daughter is now twenty and has not cut for four years. It only lasted a short time but, everytime I discovered another episode I was terrified. Hang in there... Give her her space but be constantly open for communication and love. My daugher said to me a few months ago. "Whatever we go through and whatever I do I know that you will always be there for me..." That meant the world to me... Consistency and love will mean the world to her.
Hang on in there... We are holding your hand
Spyralle xxx
-
Hopalong
You are stressed and exhausted from this marathon but there's a whole crowd of people standing just ahead of you cheering you on, holding out bottles of water and ready to hug you at the finish line!
Just looooooook at something natural, living, beautiful, quiet. Remind yourself you belong here, you have a right to be here, you are a good human being, nature allows mistakes, you love your child and she doggone well knows it...
Dallas is having great weather, we went for a long bike ride on a bike trail near a pond.
I love the water and it's as close as we get here in TX. I explained to her keeping up on our health is important and eating right will make us feel better. We both are in great shape but I want to make more of an impact with her during this time.
I have not fallen into depression keeping busy not being alone for too long, going to visit my SIL/BIL and the kids helps us both. We go to movies and my D has many friends to keep her busy. Sometimes I feel like a good drink is what I could use but know during this time drinking is not going to help.
I did enjoy a dry martini at the Christmas Party, I danced ate some good food and talked with friends, that was my fun for the year..
Hopalong
My daughter did minor cutting in high school when I was married to her Nstepdad, we had moved to a new state, and she was isolated within her peer group.
Three weeks ago, mid-year, after a long struggle and dropping out twice and re-enrolling, she graduated. She also quit smoking cigarettes a year ago. She's planning on grad school.
Don't give up on your daughter. The transition to adulthood is the biggest storm of life. But I think the fact that she was talking to her friend in the car while you were there was a blatant way to say to you, "I feel safe with you. I want you in my world." You must be doing something right that shows her your persistent love.
Hopalong, my problem is something you can understand and someday I may share my story to others too.
I feel encouraged, but know this ride is not over and like all parents the seatbelts must be worn, hold on tight the ride is just beginning. I do feel so encouraged she let me in on her day at school, I asked her more about what happend but she did not want to share for now.
nightsong
Although this seems an extreme and repulsive behavior, it is normally not dangerous and is in fact potentially less harmful than a lot of other ways teenagers may choose to help themselves through difficult times. She could be smoking, drinking, doing drugs, sleeping around or indulging in other risky behaviors - she has chosen to cut.
Please don't try to stop her (I don't get the impression you are doing this, but I feel it's important to say that). It's her coping mechanism - if she is stopped, how will she cope?
It is helpful to ensure that she knows where the first aid box is and can clean and dress her cuts if she needs to
It is quite difficult to sever the artery in the wrist and it can't be done with this sort of cutting.
have more control in their lives and no longer feel the need to create control for themselves in this way. So the key to helping her reach that point has to be - support her lovingly, and help her have control in her life. I wish you well.
Nightsong I believe I am dealing with this very calm, we have talked about the infections that can occur with cutting.
I see she is cutting the short small cuts. I do want her to stop cutting, we are working on other ways for her to cope I have read some of the websites that offer some Ideas how to use other ways like using ice, or snapping a rubber band on the wrist. She wants to find another T, this T was a much older woman and not working for my D. We are working on this for now she is happy for her pastor until we find another T.
I agree kids have all kinds of ways to cope, the drugs, sex and other ways are much worse. I do feel we can all strive to be the best at who we are and this take work and time to figure it all out.
The cutting is better than some ways but not the best idea. Without her going through struggles and comming out the other side with understanding, how will she ever know how to have commpasion for those having similar struggles.
All the help and advise has made this less scary for me, I feel brave and will walk through her dark time holding her hand with love.
spyralle
was advised to read 'A bright red scream' by Marilee Strong. It explores the reasoning and meaning behind this complex act...
My daughter said to me a few months ago. "Whatever we go through and whatever I do I know that you will always be there for me..." That meant the world to me... Consistency and love will mean the world to her
.
I will look forward to the day she will grow past this phase in her life, however having them affirm and credit you for helping them during her difficult time, the time she will remember the most, would mean the world as a parent.
Today I will look up this book at the library..
Thank you spyralle
My D and her friend just woke up and they are hungry got to go.....OR
-
Hey OR -
In the big picture of things - I look at my scars from when I cut, and know I am a strong, sensitive person who made it through some craziness.
The fact that she's being a supportive person to her friends means she's seeing some craziness in her peer group, and standing strong in herself, despite the stress...it sounds like there is alot going on in her life, with her parents divorce, stuff at school, etc. but she's got some great resources (like YOU!!! and her pastor etc). Hang in there!!!
Last of all, I'm throwing a book recommendation your way as well - one I read this weekend that touches on the biochemical aspect of cutting - its called, A General Theory of Love by Thomas Lewis, Fari Amini, and Richard Lannon, all MDs who go through the biology of emotional life. Really added alot to my understanding of my own emotional growth.
((((((hugs))))))
Andromeda
-
D, is so upset with me she's staying with her friend tonight.
The girl who my D told the counselor was hurting herself by cutting, told the counselor my D had been cutting too. Now the counselor has left a message at my work to call her so she can check with me if I know about the cutting.
We had a great weekend, she wanted to stay with me over the weekend giving up her time with friends at the mall.
So I'm on the computer and an Inst Mess (IM) for my D pops up
(they pop up all the time, I never look at them and always close the pop up windows. )
This one pops up and I decide to answer back as though I'm my D. (I don't know why intuition I guess)
At first he says I have a question so I said What?
The I'M says how he heard my D tried to kill herself. I asked him when and where, he said a few days ago is what he heard from my Ds friend (J)
Then my D walked up behind me and went ballistic reading about killing herself. I told her I was sorry but when someone is talking about you wanting to Kill yourself.!!! she said this was never true and not to worry she would never do this. She was upset with me and wanted to stay the night with the same friend (J)that said this.
The conversation got heated and she was crying saying how hard being 13 is and missing her dad.
Not seeing him for almost a year now, and all the pressures at school. She was mad and I can see why, I told her I love her and I believe her when she said she did not try and kill herself but sometimes as a parent I need to watch for her own protection.
She called her friend (J) ready to run away! She said she was going to call her Dad, I said go ahead I will love you either way. ( she said if I let her stay with her friend (J) just to get away, someone to talk to, she would not call her dad. ) She was so upset I let her go but not because she would have called her dad... I believe she knows she has a better life here and can call her dad anytime but never does.
The girls (J)father said my D is a good girl and to trust her. The girls will figure this out and not to worry.
I'm going to bed will try and sleep... OR
-
(((((((((((((((((OR)))))))))))))))))))))
One of my first thoughts from reading your post is "Why is it so hard for your D being 13?"
I feel you are justifying to yourself why you read your D's IM. Does your gut feeling tell you you were right to read it, and how would you feel if you were 13 and this was your Mum who had done this?
Although your D is staying with friends, it sounds like she's still supervised by J's father and while hard, I agree with you to try not to worry at the moment.
While a different situation, I thought I'd share this with you. My BIL's wife's daughter has twin girls and is with this guy who, in fairness, is a layabout. He's just finished another job and is out of work. She works 5 days a week, and takes the girls to his Mum's to look after while he stays in bed. Understandably BIL and his wife are pretty unhappy with this situation and feel that the least he can do is look after his children while his partner goes to work. I heard all about what they thought about him and that they don't normally interfer unless it's something which affects the twins. I turned to them and asked "What does your daughter think?" They couldn't tell me... so I replied, "Don't you think it's more important to find out first?"
Take care hon
H&H xx
-
Healing&Hopeful
I feel you are justifying to yourself why you read your D's IM. Does your gut feeling tell you you were right to read it, and how would you feel if you were 13 and this was your Mum who had done this?
I don't know, I'm upset and want to help her not have her pist at me. Being a single mom I feel in the dark sometimes and want some light shed on her life so I can know how to help her.
The way I found out the shocking information was not my 1st choice.
She just wanted to get away because I found out something she would not want me to know true or not.
She was giving me any reason why she was so upset so she could leave ...
I have to go to work Thanks for the reply .................OR
-
((((((((((((((((OR))))))))))))))
I'm upset and want to help her not have her pist at me - Bingo.... this is what you are aiming for, to help her. I really feel for you. I also do understand why you feel in the dark and can appreciate how difficult it is being a single mum. I see being a parent as a difficult enough job on it's own, doubly so when you don't have the support from a partner and an X N husband. In some ways though I can relate to what your daughter is going through with her dad, because it's what I went through.
I read (I think it was in the reading material on here actually) that most teenagers complaints are that no one understands, that no one listens to them, that no one "hears" them, who cares.... and it is actually more common than people realise for teenagers to think about suicide. If she had seriously attempted to commit suicide you would know about it, because the hospital would have to ring you. She is under 16 so there is no way this would have happened without you knowing. I appreciate that what you read is still serious, but I guess I'm saying it could be much worse. I do feel that you need to trust your D.
Maybe a way to deal with this is explain to her that you are human and you make mistakes.... that you don't always know the best way to deal with things and that while you try and do what's best for her, only she knows what is best for her.
"My gut feeling is telling me that when she was crying saying how hard being 13 is and missing her dad is a key to unlocking all of this. I'm not sure why, but my instinct is telling me this is really important."
I don't know why your D hasn't seen her dad for almost a year now... but with me, I decided to stop contact when I was about 11/12 I think. I didn't speak to him for about 6/7 years. I can't even remember how I felt at the time, but I'm guessing I would have felt quite abandoned. This might be different in your daughter's case, I don't know.
Take care.... sending lots of good wishes to you and your D.
H&H xx
-
I wanted to reply to this because I have first hand knowledge of what you're going through. When my daughter was 16 she started cutting herself. The reason she did this she said is because of trouble with her boyfriend. I know it was true because I was with her during one time when she was extremely upset that they were not getting along. He was controlling. This only happened a few times and the last time over a year ago, I told her that we were going to get her some help. I also always talked to her and never was angry and tried to be understanding. I think had i freaked out like i WANTED to do, it would have been worse. She has not done this now in over a year. It was a phase in her case. Not always is this so. I was desperate as are for help in understanding this. But she has friends who have done this. I believe this is a sort of epidemic among this age of girls. Just wanted you to know that in some situations, things work out.
-
well, even if it's heated you are communicating OR and know more about the network she's involved in and she's telling you about her emotions.
High drama indeed, but I think even a teenager should know if words like suicide are bandied about they are going to arouse some parental concern.
One of my friends told me recently that one of his children committed suicide age 13. I have no idea of the circumstances, but it does happen and I don't think it will harm your daughter to be told- you are v concerned when the topic moves from cutting to suicide.
She's asking a lot of yu as a parent, though she probably doesn't see it that way, just wanting you to see her self-harming.
But children are very manipulative too, my son rarely misses daddy until I say no, or something goes wrong, or he wants extra attention at bedtime when it's time to sleep.
You of course have the life experience to see the whole picture, your daughter will just see it from her own limited view right now.
I understand why you answered the message, but it's a good opportunity for you to establish some new boundaries of trust, you agreeing she can have her privacy if she respects your worry and concern as a parent etc.
(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((()))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
-
Healing&Hopeful
no one understands, that no one listens to them, that no one "hears" them, who cares.... and it is actually more common thanpeople realise for teenagers to think about suicide
.
This past Fathers Day her 34 yr old Multi millionare cousin committed suicide (on drugs)
depressed about his divorce drowning himself on his way here in TX.
I don't believe for one minute she would ever do this, I do trust her and know she does love life.
However, how much of her fathers genes she has remains to be seen so I worry.
My gut feeling is telling me that when she was crying saying how hard being 13 is and missing her dad is a key to unlocking all of this. I'm not sure why, but my instinct is telling me this is really important
."
I believe this is her trump card, when she wants to get her way. She is trying to fit in at school and I know she is missing her father.
His recent letter is telling her how he will be in for another surgury in the next two weeks.
He doesn't know how he will take care of himself without help. I think she feels helpless for him.
knowing he could be here getting help from family as planned but he is so N- he, would rather put the blame on everyone else why he is in this situation. I know she worries and he continues to tell her all about
his medical problems even after the court tells him not to tell her these things, so she worries.
I don't know why your D hasn't seen her dad for almost a year now...
( my story is on this board, "what would you think about this comment" but in short H is N and received a large sum of money from WC just before we were to move here to TX.(We didn't know about the money)
He could be here to have the surgries. He has had neck,back, hands elbows and needs another back.
6 operations in 6 years,he would rather have his money from W.C and make sure no one gets his money. He told me he would shoot me if I moved here
(after 27 years of marriage) 6 yrs he has been on Disability and with very little money, only my income.
he filed for divorce when we moved here and has not sent more than 20.00 for christmas to help us out in over 10 mos.
He writes our D 2-3 times a week to say HI, and tell her how bad I am and how sick he is.
momincyberspace
The reason she did this she said is because of trouble with her boyfriend. I know it was true because I was with her during one time when she was extremely upset that they were not getting along. He was controlling.
I believe this is a sort of epidemic among this age of girls. Just wanted you to know that in some situations, things work out.
MICS, Thank you, Im getting it now that this could be an epidemic.
With time a more healthy way of dealing with her problems will be discovered. I have hope things will work out. Im so glad I put the subject matter on the board, this has helped me so much
Write
well, even if it's heated you are communicating OR and know more about the network she's involved in and she's telling you about her emotions.
But children are very manipulative too, my son rarely misses daddy until I say no, or something goes wrong, or he wants extra attention at bedtime when it's time to sleep.
but it's a good opportunity for you to establish some new boundaries of trust, you agreeing she can have her privacy if she respects your worry and concern as a parent etc.
Your right even if heated we were communicating. I reenforced my words with how much I loved her and wanted to walk through this with her, no matter how difficult and I wish she would not feel the need to run but to face the problem with me. I explained to her I could not run I had to face my problems and wanted her to not run but to deal with this together.
She is on her way home... We will see how things go..
Thanks again ..................OR
I will establish some new boundaries as you suggest. .
-
Healing&Hopeful
no one understands, that no one listens to them, that no one "hears" them, who cares.... and it is actually more common thanpeople realise for teenagers to think about suicide
.
This past Fathers Day her 34 yr old Multi millionare cousin committed suicide (on drugs)
depressed about his divorce drowning himself on his way here in TX.
I don't believe for one minute she would ever do this, I do trust her and know she does love life.
However, how much of her fathers genes she has remains to be seen so I worry.
My gut feeling is telling me that when she was crying saying how hard being 13 is and missing her dad is a key to unlocking all of this. I'm not sure why, but my instinct is telling me this is really important
."
I believe this is her trump card, when she wants to get her way. She is trying to fit in at school and I know she is missing her father.
His recent letter is telling her how he will be in for another surgury in the next two weeks.
He doesn't know how he will take care of himself without help. I think she feels helpless for him.
knowing he could be here getting help from family as planned but he is so N- he, would rather put the blame on everyone else why he is in this situation. I know she worries and he continues to tell her all about
his medical problems even after the court tells him not to tell her these things, so she worries.
I don't know why your D hasn't seen her dad for almost a year now...
( my story is on this board, "what would you think about this comment" but in short H is N and received a large sum of money from WC just before we were to move here to TX.(We didn't know about the money)
He could be here to have the surgries. He has had neck,back, hands elbows and needs another back.
6 operations in 6 years,he would rather have his money from W.C and make sure no one gets his money. He told me he would shoot me if I moved here
(after 27 years of marriage) 6 yrs he has been on Disability and with very little money, only my income.
he filed for divorce when we moved here and has not sent more than 20.00 for christmas to help us out in over 10 mos.
He writes our D 2-3 times a week to say HI, and tell her how bad I am and how sick he is.
(((((((((((((OR))))))))))))))
I am so glad to hear she is back home with you....
I didn't explain myself very well... when I said about D not seeing her dad for a year, I meant is this because she doesn't want to see him? Or because he's decided he doesn't want to see her?
The similarities between my situation and this are quite astonishing... from the not being able to look after himself... Does he do the "poor me"?... the blaming... One difference I do see is that her dad does have surgery, where mine thought he should have surgery for one thing or another. Money is another funny issue with mine as well, so I'm not that surprised to here what you say. Because Mum had remarried, bio dad was disgusted (and I mean out and out disgusted) that he was expected to pay for me.... however, he was adamant he still wanted to see me until I was able to make my own decisions. He used to say to me, even when I was about 7/8 that my stepdad should be paying for me as I live with him.
You know your daughter, OR.... and she could be playing a trump card and she could be trying to manipulate, but I feel that she is saying to you "Look Mum, my life is tough". Throughout my whole childhood, I didn't really have anyone to talk about having divorced parents. The best way I can describe it is that you juggle your parents.... you don't really talk to them about how you feel about the other, because (regardless of what goes on, I feel at 13 I was still feeling like this) you are loyal to both parents. If one or other parent is putting the other one down, for me anyway, I tried to keep out of it.... but was well aware from an early age that Mum hated Dad and Dad hated Mum. So even if you asked her how she felt about her dad, my guess is she would tell you what you want to hear, more than how she feels.
As an adult, I juggled so much that by the end I never spoke to the other parent about each other. Never told bio dad that I was going round Mum's and never told Mum that I was going round bio dad's. It only came to light when me and H were due to get married and had to organise stuff. They never asked about each other either.
I may be telling you stuff that you already know.... stuff that you've already read, but maybe it is of some help. I hope so.
Take care
H&H xx
-
Hi OR:
Just a thought:
He writes our D 2-3 times a week to say HI, and tell her how bad I am and how sick he is.
Do you have access to these letters? Are there actual derogatory comments about you in the letters?
Wonder what your lawyer would say of that? Parent Allienation Plus???
Whining about being sick isn't parenting is it?
Another strike against him, if you ask me. It would be nice to let the court know about this wouldn't it?
What if you explained to your daughter that it's manipulating for one parent to say bad things about another to their child (short and simple) and that you are interested in her, in her feelings, in her thoughts, in her hopes and dreams and not in using her to nurse you through your own sorrows???
However, how much of her fathers genes she has remains to be seen so I worry.
I wonder if she might be worried about this too?
Sela
-
H & H
I didn't explain myself very well... when I said about D not seeing her dad for a year, I meant is this because she doesn't want to see him? Or because he's decided he doesn't want to see her?
He refuses to come here to see her, he wants her to fly back to CA.
Because of his over use of medications in the past he is required to have supervised
visits. He is mad, would not want anyone to tell him what to do with his daughter.
This Friday the courts will review the medical reports to help determine if she would be safe with out supervised visits.
He can't see the danger he poses, we have many reasons to be concerned but he is so (N) only his view point matters.
He would want to see her and not let her come back to TX and feel he has the right.
D, misses her dad, she wants to be loyal, she feels sorry for him as he reminds her how alone he is because
I caused the distance between them causing him a stroke which lead to him crashing his car.
When the medical reports are reviewed, which I have not seen them, we would want to know what meds
he should be on and upcoming surgeries, meaning more medications.
you are loyal to both parents
She can call him anytime, and recently has called him to say hi.
When she talks to me about something I just listen. In the past I have said in the most kind way my thoughs about whatever and it just comes out
wrong, So I just listen. I don't hate her dad and want her to love who she is and will become
It makes me mad at him when he tells her lies about me then she gets confused why would her dad lie.
I sit alone and have to trust she will know the lies and understand her dad is a very confused man.
As an adult, I juggled so much that by the end I never spoke to the other parent about each other. Never told bio dad that I was going round Mum's and never told Mum that I was going round bio dad's. It only came to light when me and H were due to get married and had to organise stuff. They never asked about each other either.
The next 5 years will be important, he often reminds her he expects to be having more surgeries
for the next 3 years and may not see her again because he may not live that long. So depressing for her.
Sela,
Do you have access to these letters? Are there actual derogatory comments about you in the letters?
The courts have already told him not to tell her about his health, but he does what ever he wants.
I have copies of the most concerning ones and will discuss them on Friday.
What if you explained to your daughter that it's manipulating for one parent to say bad things about another to their child (short and simple) and that you are interested in her, in her feelings, in her thoughts, in her hopes and dreams and not in using her to nurse you through your own sorrows???
My exH tells her all of the above about me but as an (N) I think it's projection.
Got to go D has youth group ....OR
-
thinking about you. You're doing a great job.
xoxo
-
Write, thank you for the encouragement.
D, is OK, she tells me she loves me and talking as thought nothing ever happen...
I need to leave to pick her up from YG...
Thank you all so much.. OR
-
Hi OR,
you're coping well with a tough situation. Hang in there.
I remember being 13. It is difficult. Physically, lots of changes take place, and they are not in sync. Socially, it can be brutal. Emotionally, it's a rollercoaster. Girls start to develop and gain unwanted attention from boys or from older men, or don't gain the attention they want from their peer group. Peer rivalry and bullying hits an all time high on even more levels. Or they don't develop and feel ridiculous and invisible. They have to start thinking about the real world and their future. School can become much more challenging. Sleep can be disrupted by hormones. Moon cycles erupt and are another issue.
So I think 13 could be a very difficult age in itself.
Also, your daughter might not be missing her actual father. She might be missing the father she wishes she had, and trying to check in with him from time to time to see if he really is that father in any way.
Hey good luck!
Plucky
-
H & H
Quote
I didn't explain myself very well... when I said about D not seeing her dad for a year, I meant is this because she doesn't want to see him? Or because he's decided he doesn't want to see her?
He refuses to come here to see her, he wants her to fly back to CA.
Because of his over use of medications in the past he is required to have supervised
visits. He is mad, would not want anyone to tell him what to do with his daughter.
This Friday the courts will review the medical reports to help determine if she would be safe with out supervised visits.
He can't see the danger he poses, we have many reasons to be concerned but he is so (N) only his view point matters.
He would want to see her and not let her come back to TX and feel he has the right.
D, misses her dad, she wants to be loyal, she feels sorry for him as he reminds her how alone he is because
I caused the distance between them causing him a stroke which lead to him crashing his car.
When the medical reports are reviewed, which I have not seen them, we would want to know what meds
he should be on and upcoming surgeries, meaning more medications.
Quote
you are loyal to both parents
She can call him anytime, and recently has called him to say hi.
When she talks to me about something I just listen. In the past I have said in the most kind way my thoughs about whatever and it just comes out
wrong, So I just listen. I don't hate her dad and want her to love who she is and will become
It makes me mad at him when he tells her lies about me then she gets confused why would her dad lie.
I sit alone and have to trust she will know the lies and understand her dad is a very confused man.
Quote
As an adult, I juggled so much that by the end I never spoke to the other parent about each other. Never told bio dad that I was going round Mum's and never told Mum that I was going round bio dad's. It only came to light when me and H were due to get married and had to organise stuff. They never asked about each other either.
The next 5 years will be important, he often reminds her he expects to be having more surgeries
for the next 3 years and may not see her again because he may not live that long. So depressing for her.
((((((((((OR)))))))))
I'm sorry, I'm probably asking too many questions and dragging up stuff you probably don't want to talk about.
Thank you for sharing this with me.... As an adult I can see this is emotional manipulation, from the I'm not coming to see you, I expect you to fly over here to the I'm alone to you may not see me again. What better way to get someone to do what you want than by saying, I may not have very long to live.... ah yes, and then she gives him a ring to say Hi. One thing I am happy to hear is that you have support in the supervised visits. It gives me hope that things have moved on from the 80's. Personally I'd love to one day see the court files on their divorce and custody of me, but whether I can actually get this information or not will remain to be seen in the future.
D, misses her dad, she wants to be loyal, she feels sorry for him as he reminds her how alone he is because
I caused the distance between them causing him a stroke which lead to him crashing his car.
Is this what he is telling her, not what you believe? The blame game.... he's alone because of you, and then you miraculously have the power to cause him a stroke and crash his car. Wow, I didn't realise you were superhuman OR. Ah yes, and his part is... zero, zilch. I think not.
As an adult I can see this.... as a 13 year old, no I couldn't see it at all. I feel it's brilliant that you listen to her... I can imagine how difficult that is for you too, to be able to see all this going on.... Even if cutting was "fashionable", I don't feel too surprised she is turning to cutting to help her cope. Maybe when she next talks to you about her dad, it may help to say he is a responsible adult... he is responsible for himself, it may help to talk about personal responsibility.
I won't even pretend I have any answers OR, but one thing I do feel is that not only is she going through the usual 13 year olds turmoil (as Plucky said), she's also dealing with an emotionally manipulative dad.... maybe next time she says how tough her life is, what about giving her a hug and empathising with her how tough her life is. Your her Mum OR, and you know her best.
Take care
H&H xx
-
Plucky
Also, your daughter might not be missing her actual father. She might be missing the father she wishes she had, and trying to check in with him from time to time to see if he really is that father in any way.
I think this is a bulls eye........ I would believe her dreams are shattered but not unexpected.
I asked her today if he told her about any more surgeries, she said yes he will have his elbows done on Monday.
I explained how it would be nice if he would come here so he would not be alone, she said he might want to after a few years when his recoveries are done.
I'm trying to give her hope, not that I would want to ever see him.
HH
D, misses her dad, she wants to be loyal, she feels sorry for him as he reminds her how alone he is because
I caused the distance between them causing him a stroke which lead to him crashing his car.
Is this what he is telling her, not what you believe?
This is the crazy stuff he tells her, I know it's not true. I'm sure he was on his meds when he crashed the car.
He over reacted about something D said to him and stayed in the bed room for a 1week telling us how he wanted to die from a blood clot.
This was very upsetting to us, the more we wanted him to get up and walk around after the surgery
( 1 yr ago today) the more he wanted to punish us by not moving, reminding us how not moving would settle the blood in his lungs causing a stroke. We moved out of state 7 weeks later.
He crashed the car about 3 mos after we left, telling D someone died in the crash and he found himself in the hospital.
( I have a friend that writes me and sees him riding his bike, she also sent me a picture of the crashed car. The passenger side near the hood in front of the door is missing, doesn't look like a deadly crash and the car still runs. She said he's not walking with this cane. I can't say too much to D about all of this or she may tell him I have people that tell me what they see. )
HH
it may help to say he is a responsible adult... he is responsible for himself, it may help to talk about personal responsibility.
13 year olds turmoil (as Plucky said), she's also dealing with an emotionally manipulative dad....
maybe next time she says how tough her life is, what about giving her a hug and empathizing with her how tough her life is.
I agree HH taking responsibility for your own actions, is a must even if her N-dad never does maybe she will learn how to recognize the distruction this attitude has for yourself as well has the hurt to those around you.
getting her away from this poor attitude of his is the best thing for her.
I do empathize with her and will keep in mind how important this is, keeping my mouth in check to say the loving things she needs right now.
Personally I'd love to one day see the court files on their divorce and custody of me, but whether I can actually get this information or not will remain to be seen in the future.
I learned from the court there is already a date in place for the custody papers to be destroyed
when D is 18teen
HH
I may not have very long to live....
My N-ex H, learned this well from his N- mother, she has been telling him how shes going to die for years.
Thanks for the reply 10:30 I have to call the courts wish me luck to keep custody, I'm pretty sure the courts will not make me move back to CA. ............OR
-
Good luck with the courts today OR... fingers crossed everything goes ok. H&H xx
-
HH thanks for the good wishes,
Update nothing is changing for now...
Mediator spoke with all 3 of us, each separately.
I spoke with her about the inappropriate letters from her dad, and needed her help to inform the courts.
She said she would ask for his phone calls, emails and letters to be screened.
She reminded me how she already asked him not to give D, details about his health and said because he would not head her request she would make sure the judge is aware of his behavior.
She was really pushing to help me I was expecting there was not alot I could do, so she was kinda pist that H ignored her request.
I also re mined her 2mos ago how he refused to pick up the court papers to read them before he went in front of the judge, and they had to give him their copy.
He sat there reading while the judge made his ruling, he must have been stunned as he read learning he had lost custody. All his lies to the mediator didn't work, the judge was short and sweet telling him if he understood page 7 ?
He says "Well wait I'm just now reading the court papers", I could hear him on the speaker phone the Judge was pist at that point telling him, he was mailed the papers and ignored them and in the future he had better comply with the rules of the court. Now he has the mediator mad at him for ignoring her, I told her he will do what ever he wants, when he wants and I would appreciate any help from her.
She asked me about the T for D, I explained about the cutting and we talked about how kids are doing this everywhere and she believes D's cutting was more of a whats in fashion. She talked to D about it too.
So for now I will be in CA on the 31st, I will keep custody with supervised visits.
got to go ....OR
-
OR,
You are a VERY GOOD mother and you and D are going to grow strong through all of this.
I am so glad the mediator wasn't fooled.
You do have right on your side.
Big hugs to you and to her,
Hopalong
-
OR -
You are doing a fantastic job. Hang in there.
Sometimes I think the emotional firestorms of adolescense are like all the unexpressed emotions of the family coming to the surface...at the same time. It would be so tough to be in your daughters shoes: all the stuff about being 13 that Plucky highlighted and I TOTALLY echo - and on top of that, the sense of home all turned upside down...
Plucky hit it, too, with the 'broken fantasy of dad'...Most of my grieving for my marriage was grieving for the broken fantasy of ex-H - he presented himself as this wonderful guy while we were dating and then once we were married, he turned into somebody else. I rationalized and rationalized, twisted my mind round and round to hang on to that image of him as the One True Love...and finally, he started to beat me up, and that broke the picture. I had to see the reality of it. I imagine that would be a HUGE challenge if this was my Dad...and I was negotiating all the turbulence of 13...
Remember, OR, that both you and she are way more resilient than you might think. You can, and will, make it through these troubled waters. Remember too to nourish yourself on this journey. You have your own troubled waters to swim here.
Hang in there lady - you are a great one.
Andromeda