Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: write on January 06, 2006, 09:21:00 AM
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is this term a general psychiatric term or something which came from the pop psych writings on the internet?
my experience of
ns is that they do require an audience when nothing is going on, but quite often are totally self-absorbed in whatever they are doing- to the complete exclusion of others.
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Hey Write,
Just a quick thought but I've known quite a few Ns who were brilliant at absorbing themselves in work or other activities. The way I understand "supply" is that when they're in a relationship (or a when a relationship forces them to deal with other people)--they're only in it to get attention. In some way or other, every exchange is evaluated or twisted around in their heads so it's about THEM. Even when they deal with children.
I know several single, accomplished, brilliant Ns who do shut others out for long stretches to concentrate. But, in most Ns I've happened to get to know, the end goal is work (in some cases lovely work)...that will bring them attention, adulation, admiration, etc. Full circle = Supply.
Maybe it's just in pursuit of "deferred Supply" or "bigger Supply" that so many Ns will neglect, blow off, disregard the normal need for intimacy and connection and belonging that others who are "close" to them (partner, bf or gf or family) have.
That sure can hurt. Ow. I remember so many instances where I knew I was not asking for much, but ANY attention that I sought for myself was rudely shoved aside. Before I knew what an N was, I just thought I didn't deserve to be liked.
Hopalong
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Hello write and hops,
I remember so many instances where I knew I was not asking for much, but ANY attention that I sought for myself was rudely shoved aside. Before I knew what an N was, I just thought I didn't deserve to be liked.
Wow, hops, you described my childhood to a tee :(
Um, I don't know if NS is a legitimate psych term or not.
I wanted to ask about grandiose thinking. What is the difference between grandiose thinking and daydreams/fantasies about becoming a (fill in the blank with dream occupation) or becoming president of the united states, or whatever? I daydream a lot about stuff like this, like gee, I wonder what it would be like to become an artist or to publish a story, etc. Is that narcissistic? :shock: Is it narcissistic to dream?
I recently met a journalist and after I got to know her a little, told her (in a friendly goofy way) that she was living my "dream career". Like "I dream about it, and you're actually doing it. Cool." She was really nice about it and we have great chats about journalism in general. I mean, I think i am still rooted in some reality here...sooo any insights?
Thanks, MP
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I wanted to ask about grandiose thinking. What is the difference between grandiose thinking and daydreams/fantasies about becoming a (fill in the blank with dream occupation) or becoming president of the united states, or whatever?
Hiya MP.... I don't think what your thinking is N. From my perspective I would say that grandiose thinking is thinking that you're the best... your better than everyone else and look down on anyone else doing the same thing, or even look down on people who are better than you but who have some trait that you don't like etc etc etc.
I feel it's healthy to wonder about other professions and wonder what it was like to do that job.... Do you think you'll give something a try? Like with art, you could possibly get some paper and paints and have a go one evening.... or write a short story to begin with?
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Hi H&H,
Thanks for the reassuring reply! That helped clear it up for me.
And yes, I dabble in just about everything! I'm the BEST dabbler, hah! :D MP
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Hey MP,
What I understand about the grandiosity is that the N's fantasies/daydreams of being president, famous, the most brilliant beautiful accomplished person anywhere...is that they are usually not matched with commensurate achievement.
Certainly, many Ns are highly accomplished. But there are plenty of more modest genuises around. Dedicated teachers, scientists, entrepreneurs...who achieve like crazy both for the pleasure of accomplishment and/or for giving something to the world. And it's also normal to have an ego and get excited and proud now and then.
What an N accomplishes may LOOK like it's "for the world"--but you and we know, it ain't. Or it mostly ain't.
Daydreams of achievement? NORMAL. Fleeting fantasies of fame? In this culture, NORMAL.
My last Nbf was a very gifted artist. Makes really, really lovely prints of flowers. However, he used to describe it all to me in private as part of some GRANDIOSE fantasty of changing the world. Way beyond the normal pleasure any artist or writer gets from "audience". Many creative professions require audience because that's the nature of it...it only completes the work to share it.
But I've been close to two N artists and two N entrepreneurs...beneath the grandiose fantasies was raging envy of those who HAVE achieved a "big profile"--and lots of contempt. A hidden sneer.
Ugggh.
Hopalong
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I wanted to ask about grandiose thinking. What is the difference between grandiose thinking and daydreams/fantasies about becoming a (fill in the blank with dream occupation) or becoming president of the united states, or whatever? I daydream a lot about stuff like this, like gee, I wonder what it would be like to become an artist or to publish a story, etc. Is that narcissistic?
oh I am a bipolar, way ahead of you on the grandiosity. One who can write, compose, play, talk, do just about anything: talk about head in the clouds! Plus I have flitted from career to career, as soon as i learn one thing I want to do another...totally uncommitted, unreliable and selfish!
I'm just joking ( though I can be grandiose when I'm manic, and have also overreached and done some of my most interesting things! ) but there's a difference between daydreaming and goal-setting which you may need to explore if you are frequently imagining change both realistic or fantasy.
There's a great book 'Do what you love and the money will follow' Marsha Sinetar- which explores finding your right livelihood and exploring what holds us back.
Also this year I got myself 'Simple Abundance: a daybook of comfort and joy' Sarah Ban Breathnach which I am working through daily.
I'm trying to stop running around and steadfastly build on the calm and strengths in my life right now.
***
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beneath the grandiose fantasies was raging envy of those who HAVE achieved a "big profile"--and lots of contempt. A hidden sneer.
if I want to annoy ex n-h even now all I have to do is refer to someone else ( even a famous person from history ) as a genius or great mind, he will always respond as though he's been kicked!
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Write, that's wicked!
(In a good way...)
:lol: :P :lol:
Hopalong
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Hey Write, wicked good!
Thanks for letting me hitchhike on your thread! And for the book recommendations. I'm heavy into book therapy so you know I'll check those out. Thanks.
raging envy of those who HAVE achieved a "big profile"--and lots of contempt. A hidden sneer.
Gosh, Hops, are you my lost twin or something? My Nfather is soooo eager to cut down local celebs and basketball stars (he played). And he "could have been [this] or could have been [that]" but he wasn't, was he?
I once saw a very funny skit at Second City (famous comedy club in Chicago) with Chris Farley before he was famous! He and another guy were acting as security at Wrigley Field.
To invisible ticketholder: "Hey, hey, hey buddy! stay on THAT side of the line. That's more like it!"
To each other: "I could have been vice squad, but you know, I'm too nice a guy (or something)"
other guy: "yeah, I could have been FBI, but I have this trick knee."
first guy: "oh, oh, I was recruited for the CIA but I wanted to stay here..."
It was hysterical.
Were any of you ever on the receiving end of the sneer? I received plenty of sneers from Nbro if I achieved anything or attempted new things. It was tough trying to make folks proud but not one-up them either! Invisibility is easier! One time I took a pretty visible job position and I near went into panic even though I had the skills to do it...ugh. I can't take the sneers. Another time, within the family, I made some really nice albums for everyone and Nbrother was appreciative, critical, jealous, and angry all at the same time! :shock: By that time, though, I expected this response and just calmly told him he could do whatever he wanted with it, that I just wanted to do it.
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MP,
OH yeah. Sneers (hidden by "courtesy" in NMom's code, but NBrother still sneers) and condescension.
And weirdly but maybe relatedly...competition.
I've done poetry seriously for 30 years: M.A., publishing, readings, etc.
NMom wrote a bit of treacly doggerel about being ill and people thought it was cute and she has literally given away 100 copies. She carries it with her and foists it on every hapless nurse, doctor, visitor, ad nauseum. It's in her Christmas letter. She sent it to the paper. (Sadly, they didn't respond.)
I was HAPPY she wrote it and people praised her. It's just (I swear to God I am not exaggerating) that I am exhausted by how many times she's reminded me how much everyone loved her poem. 100s.
(Meanwhile, she never mentions my work. Recently I got a handwritten note from a national news anchor who'd read one... she said that's nice and did I tell you that so and so just loved MY poem the other day?)
Yikers. That's off topic, not exactly about sneering. But I guess squashing your kids' talents to showcase your own is a form of sneer, maybe? (Shove over! Only room for ONE poet in this house!) Gee. Before I got good at it she didn't display any special interest in poetry...
Sigh.
Hops (and thanks for that hilarious sketch with Farley! :lol:)
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Eww. I just wondered if what I just posted about my poetry was an Nspot. (I definitely have them.)
I can't tell when I'm being a voice hog and when I'm being a mini-N and when I'm healthily proud of myself.
I really don't know the difference but I know even asking myself the question makes me squirm.
Hop
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I can't tell when I'm being a voice hog and when I'm being a mini-N and when I'm healthily proud of myself.
well be all three and be done with it!
"There Is A Voice Inside Of You
That Whispers All Day Long,
"I Feel That This Is Right For Me,
I Know That This Is Wrong."
No Teacher, Preacher, Parent, Friend
Or Wise Man Can Decide
What's Right For You- Just Listen To
The Voice That Speaks Inside."
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poem was Shel Silverstein ps.
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N supply is a term I've read mostly in Sam Vaknin's (ughh!!) writing.
MP, grandiose fantasies of Ns are filled with embellishments and twisting of truths of their own achievements. Generally N's are so off from reality.
Recently I got a handwritten note from a national news anchor who'd read one... she said that's nice and did I tell you that so and so just loved MY poem the other day?)
Why Hop, that's lovely, especially to get recognition at national level when you get so little at home. Keep up the good work.
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Write and Marta.
Thank you verrrrrry much.
Jeez. It's confusing to try to be a grownup.
The whole thing of an Nparent is it creates such self-doubt.
Second guessing.
Editing my own head until it aches.
Doubting my own good intentions.
Microscope in my belly button.
Thanks to you guys for helping me breathe.
Sheesh. My thought of self-praise touched off a little chord of shame.
That's what that was. Ick again.
WHERE ARE SELA'S EMOTICONS WHEN I NEED THEM??
:lol:
Hopalong
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The whole thing of an Nparent is it creates such self-doubt.
Second guessing.
Editing my own head until it aches.
Doubting my own good intentions.
Microscope in my belly button.
Each and every one of us has been there, Hop.
Why not conduct an experiment? Stop doubting yourself so much for a month. IN fact, don't second guess yourself at all. For one WHOLE MONTH. See if it makes you any less of a person, if it impairs your functioning in any way (other than with N mom of course.)
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I will doggone well try it!
I have been asserting myself in unusual little ways lately...maybe that's a start!
Whoops! I mean, that's a damn good start!
I AM HOPALONG! HEAR ME SQUEAK! I MEAN, HEAR ME ROAR!
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yup, take a whole bloody month off, and we promise to attack and slander you at every opportunity afterwards if you so deserve it!
Perfectionism is good for copy-writers and saints; everyone else can take a breather!
Or a damn good roar for lioness-poets...
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I thought I remember reading something like: normal people see themselving taking action, to get somewhere in their dreams and fantasies. Naricissits feel like they're already there..
Or something like that. Anybody remember this better, what I'm referring to?
Something clicked when my Mom said this to me one day:
When have I EVER let you down??? I AM ALWAYS THERE FOR YOU.
I had to stiffle a laugh because I'm pretty sure she was serious. That's grandiose thinking at its finest.
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I found it! Here's the difference between normal fantasies and a narcissists. I think this will make you feel better. I don't think you're being N.
http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/traits.html#grand
Narcissists are grandiose. They live in an artificial self invented from fantasies of absolute or perfect power, genius, beauty, etc. Normal people's fantasies of themselves, their wishful thinking, take the form of stories -- these stories often come from movies or TV, or from things they've read or that were read to them as children. They involve a plot, heroic activity or great accomplishments or adventure: normal people see themselves in action, however preposterous or even impossible that action may be -- they see themselves doing things that earn them honor, glory, love, riches, fame, and they see these fantasy selves as personal potentials, however tenuous, something they'd do if they didn't have to go to school or go to work, if they had the time and the money.
As Freud said of narcissists, these people act like they're in love with themselves. And they are in love with an ideal image of themselves -- or they want you to be in love with their pretend self, it's hard to tell just what's going on. Like anyone in love, their attention and energy are drawn to the beloved and away from everyday practicalities. Narcissists' fantasies are static -- they've fallen in love with an image in a mirror or, more accurately, in a pool of water, so that movement causes the image to dissolve into ripples; to see the adored reflection they must remain perfectly still. Narcissists' fantasies are tableaux or scenes, stage sets; narcissists are hung up on a particular picture that they think reflects their true selves (as opposed to the real self -- warts and all). Narcissists don't see themselves doing anything except being adored, and they don't see anyone else doing anything except adoring them. Moreover, they don't see these images as potentials that they may some day be able to live out, if they get lucky or everything goes right: they see these pictures as the real way they want to be seen right now (which is not the same as saying they think these pictures are the way they really are right now, but that is another story to be discussed elsewhere). Sometimes narcissistic fantasies are spectacularly grandiose -- imagining themselves as Jesus or a saint or hero or deity depicted in art -- but just as often the fantasies of narcissists are mediocre and vulgar, concocted from illustrations in popular magazines, sensational novels, comic books even. These artificial self fantasies are also static in time, going back unchanged to early adolescence or even to childhood; the narcissists' self-images don't change with time, so that you will find, for instance, female narcissists clinging to retro styles, still living the picture of the perfect woman of 1945 or 1965 as depicted in The Ladies' Home Journal or Seventeen or Vogue of that era, and male narcissists still hung up on images of comic-book or ripping adventure heroes from their youth. Though narcissists like pictures rather than stories, they like still pictures, not moving ones, so they don't base their fantasies on movies or TV.
Grandiosity can take various forms -- a narcissistic woman may believe herself to be the very model of perfect womanhood, the standard by which all others are measured, and she will try to force her daughters to be just like her, she will not be able to cope with daughters who are taller or shorter than she is, fatter or thinner, who have bigger or smaller feet, breasts, teeth, who have different favorite colors than hers, etc. Narcissistic men can be infatuated with their own looks, too, (witness John Cheever, for instance; Almost Perfect) but are more likely than women to get hung up on their intelligence or the importance of their work -- doesn't matter what the work is, if he's doing it, by definition it's more important than anything you could possibly do. Narcissists I've known also have odd religious ideas, in particular believing that they are God's special favorites somehow; God loves them, so they are exempted from ordinary rules and obligations: God loves them and wants them to be the way they are, so they can do anything they feel like -- though, note, the narcissist's God has much harsher rules for everyone else, including you. [Many readers have questions about narcissism and religion. Here is an interesting article on the Web: "Narcissism Goes to Church: Encountering Evangelical Worship" by Monte Wilson. "Modern American Christianity is filled with the spirit of narcissism. We are in love with ourselves and evaluate churches, ministers and truth-claims based upon how they make us feel about ourselves. If the church makes me feel wanted, it is a good church. If the minister makes me feel good about myself, he is a terrific guy. If the proffered truth supports my self-esteem, it is, thereby, verified."] [More on grandiosity.]
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My last Nbf was a very gifted artist. Makes really, really lovely prints of flowers. However, he used to describe it all to me in private as part of some GRANDIOSE fantasty of changing the world. Way beyond the normal pleasure any artist or writer gets from "audience". Many creative professions require audience because that's the nature of it...it only completes the work to share it.
But I've been close to two N artists and two N entrepreneurs...beneath the grandiose fantasies was raging envy of those who HAVE achieved a "big profile"--and lots of contempt. A hidden sneer.
Hopalong, you nailed it.
I'm an artist...yes, the audience is a part of the process: I make something, then I send it out into the world for other people to have relationships with. However, I also work hard to contribute to, and create, communities where artists can grow together...space where creatives can show work and get feedback. I'm a committed art educator. My commitment as an artist is to the artwork.
Its a tricky thing for Ns to disengage their sense of self from their work. N artists cannot deal with constructive criticism - they take it all personally, and make you their personal nemesis. Which is completely unprofessional in terms of the creative career. I've known a few N-artists and they have a really hard time being friends with other artists - they don't like sharing any sort of attention given to the 'creative' person - like there can only be one artist in the room at a time.
The petty jealous BS that's beyond the sort of twingey jealousy that points me towards what I should be working on -- HEALTHY jealousy points me towards figuring out what I want, helps me find my voice. Its something I experience inside myself as part of my waking-up to where I want my career to go. UNHEALTHY jealousy destroys relationships, is the source of poisenous gossip/destructive criticism and other drama.
There is total acknowledgement in the art world that Art CANNOT save the world. Good art touches individual lives deeply. But the idea that one person's art can save or redeem the world? Get over it! If Van Gogh couldn't save the world, no artist can.
The role of art is to help transform our daily lives. The art object is not a substitute for the artist...The worst art is made in the name of personal fame/style/ego.
And, RE the 'hidden sneer' of competition -- guess what: comparing two different paintings by two different artists can be like comparing apples and bicycles. An apple and a bicycle have two completely different functions in this world, and are valued for very different reasons. Just like I value Van Gogh for different reasons than I value Andy Warhol. YOU CAN'T COMPARE THEM!
AAAGH!
end rant.
andromeda
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Eww. I just wondered if what I just posted about my poetry was an Nspot. (I definitely have them.)
I can't tell when I'm being a voice hog and when I'm being a mini-N and when I'm healthily proud of myself.
I really don't know the difference but I know even asking myself the question makes me squirm.
Hop
Hopalong -- I gotta ask: Why are you evaluating your behavior in terms of whether or not its narcissistic?
You're an accomplished creative person. You have the right to discuss that, to be who you are. I think the story highlighted the fact that there can't be more than one poet in the house with your mom around. She's not a healthy audience for you. Taking the time to express your success does not a narcissist make.
I think I'm going to start a thread about labeling.
Andromeda
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There is total acknowledgement in the art world that Art CANNOT save the world. Good art touches individual lives deeply. But the idea that one person's art can save or redeem the world? Get over it! If Van Gogh couldn't save the world, no artist can.
but that is the weakness of your own argument too, or an argument that love can save the world etc etc....it can in a way...but not totally.
The N perspective isn't really about their art but themselves. It is not 'art an save the world' but 'I the ultimate artist can save the world'.
And even if they did- saving the world would not be enough.
It would have to be 'their' world and on 'their' terms. And with appropriate, ie unconditional everlasting recognition.
It could never exist, or last.
N is doomed to failure.
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Thanks Bean, Andromeda, Write...
that was dead-on, Andromeda. And Write too.
The sad thing about both N artists I was close to is that they were both very, very gifted. All that melodrama (grandiosity is pretty operatice) was such an unecessary diversion of their vital energy. They would have produced much more and known greater success if they'd been able to tuck their ego away now and then. (But I know what you mean about an occasional spurt of mild jealousy, Andro, that's just motivating.)
I dunno why I'm hypervigilant for my own Nspots.
I just think I'm not done wrestling the N dragon until I have identified, accepted, and dealt with the manifestations of N in my own nature. I don't think they're enormous nor the dominant parts of me...but they're there. Truly. (I talk about myself a LOT, anxious streams of chatter...). And once when I was rejected by an N-bf I was enraged and figured out that I was feeling a BUNCH of entitlement. I can catch myself doing entitlement in small ways too...sometimes I just feel soooooooo special.
I'm not beating myself up for this.(Not this month, hear me roar!) I know I have compassion and empathy and a deep capacity for love. I just find that honesty with myself is important. What I've been working on in recent years has been to love myself with a fraction of the loyalty I've shown to a parade of Ns. It's coming along... it just means accepting that we all got warts, I have warts, some harmless or eccentric, and some are mini Nspots.
Hopalong