Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Voicelessness and Emotional Survival => Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board => Topic started by: Portia on January 10, 2006, 08:57:36 AM
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This thread may contain strong language, scenes of a sexual nature, violent imagery and will mostly consist of words. In (UK) English, mostly, probably. Si!
Problem: dealing with feelings and with half-wit people. Solution: work it through, analyse the problem, decide on course of action, or alternative courses of action, and act. Modify actions depending upon reactions of others. Keep a close watch on own emotional and intellectual reactions.
Current emotional condition: starting to admit feelings of being dishonest in not confronting mother. Wondering if it is possible to work through the anger and grief without ever stating that I have changed. Carrying on with the lies, the false reality. Yes, of course it’s possible to do this: I have to be the grown-up. There is no alternative there. Okay, but that doesn’t mean I have to pamper the child (or children). It doesn’t mean I’m the grown-up at my expense. It means I get to behave in an adult manner, even if others don’t. So let’s decide on an adult course of action.
Facts: mother’s brother telephones me on my mobile phone last night while I’m cooking. This is probably the second time he’s telephoned me in our lives (although I’ve called him a few times). We’re both “okay”, he wants a chat but “everything is alright”. He says he’s called me on the mobile because the land-line is “always engaged”. I tell him that’s because either me or my partner are on the internet. And that’s why I have a mobile, so people can ring me. I say I’m cooking and I’ll call him back in 15 minutes.
Alert: my mother has complained that she can’t get hold of me because I’m always on the internet, or engaged. He’s repeating her words. He doesn’t own a PC. Where did he get my mobile number? Maybe I gave it to him; unlikely. Maybe my mother, or father, gave it to him.
I call him back. He tells me about his new year. They (mother and he) went to Glasgow, to a posh hotel, for the weekend, along with a singles group. Visited Edinburgh on a coach trip. All very enjoyable. I ask why go to Scotland in the winter when it’s dark and cold? He says it wasn’t in the hotel. This befuddles my brain. I’m a logical, rational introvert. To enjoy myself I go south in the winter, I enjoy the outdoors, travel, scenery. I might go to Glasgow if you paid me, but it wouldn’t be my choice. Anyway, they ‘enjoyed’ it, so good luck to them. I’d like to understand what’s enjoyable about it, but I know if I ask I’ll be seen probably as critical. Which I am. I don’t think these people have a clue how to enjoy themselves. But that’s not my problem and I won’t comment. I tell him we’ve both been ill here over the holidays. And mention I got an email from mother saying she’d been ill too. I say that she’s probably caught it from [one of her boyfriends], who just spent a week working in London before he then went to stay with her. It’s a London bug, I’m convinced of it.
So what does he want? Under all this false heap of shit that passes as communication, what does he want from me? He asks if I’m working, talks about money (his views on it), talks about what he might do if he needs some spare cash (he doesn’t need it). Says he thinks he could work with “mentally ill” people. Tells me a couple of jokes. Asks me “will you give your mum a ring?”.
[ :shock:WHAT?] “Is she alright?” [visions of hospital beds etc spring to mind.] Oh yes, he tells me. Only she hasn’t heard from you. “I’ve got a mobile phone, yes I’m on the internet a lot, that’s why I’ve got a mobile so people can call me. She can call me if she wants to.” He makes a sound like he’s smiling in embarrassment. What does that sound like? If you know, you know, if you don’t, you don’t. I know. I give in, I can’t think of what else to do. “Okay I’ll call her tomorrow. In fact I might call you tomorrow as well, are you around?” Yes he will be. He sounds a bit ‘happier’.
I AM FURIOUS. I don’t verbalise it in an angry way. Watch the tv. Have a conversation. I could just ignore them both. Yeah that’s an option. Good point. Go to bed.
Today I’m furious! What bullshit manipulative fuck-wit piece of crap is this heading my way?
Why won’t people just leave me alone?? Leave me alone!!
Bad daughter! Bad girl! Rotten person! You should call your ‘Mother’. Mommy needs you. Mommy wonders what’s ‘wrong’. Mommy feels neglected. Mommy is missing supply. Yeah. I know. I got the email. All three boyfriends are out of action. This is my problem?
Or maybe I’m wrong. Maybe ….. facts. Fact. He spoke to my father two days ago. Aha. Maybe they discussed my mother? Maybe some conversation there prompted him to call me?
What a waste of time. Why do I have to waste my time on this?
Why doesn’t she call me (if she wants to)? Is she scared of calling me? (That’s a recent thought of mine. That she’s scared of me now. Because I’m not dumb any more. But of course…..it’s probably nonsense. It simply paints me as another version of a ‘bad’ person, a potentially harmful person. Only I know that. Only I know me. Only I know that I’m capable of a ground zero moment. People should be more careful around me! I have a big potential for truth-telling and that ain’t pretty. It’s not nice. It’s not always productive. Truth-telling involves emotions, like anger and grief.) Is she scared of me? She’s scared of the truth perhaps. Or perhaps not. No, of course not. There would be only one casualty I feel. Me. Or maybe not?
How much can you hurt stupid people?
I will not be told what to do. I’m being asked to do something. But I’m actually being told.
Nobody in this interaction gives a flying fuck about what I feel. As usual. How about asking me a question. “Have you called her recently? Why not?”
Mental health indeed. :D Give me a b-r-e-a-k. :P
*sigh*. I have to pick the phone up. I’m going to call him and ask the questions. I’m not letting this go, I’m not doing as I’m told. I want to know why. I want to know what’s prompted him. Is it her? What did she say? What’s really going on here? Who’s manipulating who? Is this about power??
Life’s too short for this.
Sometimes I scare myself. I really do think in an advanced society people will need licences to have kids. Short of that objective, I can’t see the point in me trying to solve today’s problems. Maybe I could work with kids. Maybe I could work with prisons. Maybe I should just get out and do something; change a slight behaviour, change a huge load of my outlook, get off my ivory tower. I don’t like behavioural training. Because I was trained by step-father. That’s why I couldn’t have done therapy. I can’t won’t hand over control. I can’t do it now. I’m way too cynical, wary, aware and hey, I don’t need it. I know what the problems are. I’m too realistic that’s my problem. I need to believe and fantasise and just go with the flow and maybe get myself a healing crystal. I don’t have any problems: compared to the vast majority of humans on this planet. Compared to people who were loved as kids and who grew up with a solid sense of self, confidence, a good dose of everyday delusion – yeah, I have problems. So what? I’d love to be a therapist. But I don’t love people enough. Sometimes I feel like Harry Lime in The Third Man. What would it matter if one of those dots down there suddenly stopped moving? It wouldn’t matter. It happens and – it doesn’t matter. And that is terrible.
What’s the worse that could happen? You’re never alone with schizophrenia.
Hey. This is a bit down. I feel some social responsibility kicking in. I don’t want to bring you down. I’m just coming down from a good swear and trying to be grown-up and decide what to do. I just want to rant like a two-year-old for a moment. I want to say, hey, it’s not fair! Hahaha. I love this board. Hey Voiclessness.com/disc3, I’ll never let you go! :D You know too much! hahahahaha *hic* hahaha! Now that’s funny. I’m making myself smile.
Oh what to do. Pick up the phone. Pretend for a moment to be a normal person. That is, one who lies, who is false, who never speaks the truth for the sake of – our parents. We must spare our parents. I must spare my mother so that he may spare his mother and so on.
Good news. I love the online library system! I reserved another two Alice Miller books online yesterday. Excellent! I love it. I don’t have to deal with another human being and these two books can travel from two different towns to arrive at my chosen destination to collect. Wonderful! Such a little bit of achievement and control and it doesn’t take much to make me happy with the day’s events. And I’ve stopped myself checking the washing machine door. You know, I open it to check that I’ve closed it securely? Totally nuts. I’m weaning myself off that one. It goes back to when I moved in here. The previous idiot doctor owner had allowed his machine to overflow for years; I had to have the flooring removed down to the (wet) concrete base. Yes people are irresponsible and selfish and stupid. Even when they have big brains.
I can do without this. Hours of this. “You analyse too much”. “Women who think too much” (hey was that written by a man or woman?). Yeah I think too much! Wanna give me a lobotomy babe? Hahaha.
I might be a “sensitive person” or even a “highly sensitive person”. You know what I think that means? In real language? It means intelligent. That can be either IQ intelligent or EQ intelligent or some other gauge we haven’t yet invented. Down’s syndrome folks have an extra chromosome. Isn’t that amazing? They don’t have a deficiency, they have an excess. They have more. Interesting.
I could be procrastinating now. Could well be. But it’s turning into fun and I’d rather be avoiding relating to people who are just darn hard work. Dah de dum dum deeee dah...
It’s a sick joke though. I always was responsible for mother. And now I know I have to be responsible because some others, her included, are not. It’s not fair, kick scream! Haha. I wish I was thick. I wish I’d had six kids and lived in drunken poverty. It could have happened. I might not have been drunken. Having six kids might have helped me grow up faster. Might have been fantastic. I might have been a great mother. Let’s not go there right now. That contains too much grief. Emotion is not rational, except seen as the effect following the cause.
I can only be what I have been and where I am now. I cannot be otherwise. Peace.
Phone calls. What will I say? I’ll say: what prompted you to call me? And then I’ll listen. I’m good at listening, when I want to.
Haha! This is in Word and it’s three pages! “call your mother” = 3 pages. I guess it’s not surprising really. Hey. “Call your mother” - nice title? Not exactly Bridget Jones’s Diary. Nah. People want bread and circuses. Prince Charmings. Romantic delusion. Happy Endings. There is only one true ending - we all die. Margaret Atwood wrote a lovely short story called ‘happy endings’ I think. It made me laugh. It’s a comfort to read her and know that other people do think as you think. Or at least you imagine that they think as you do!
Make the phone call. Oooooo surely there is some housework to do?
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((((((Portia)))))
Honey.... You are really funny, you know that.... I know you have all the sh*t with the possibility of ringing your Mum, but your post really made me laugh (with you, not at you, you understand!)
So how about we break it down and look at your choices.....
You can ring your Mum's brother and find out why he asked you to call her. Would he tell you? If he's prepared to be messenger, you can always ask him "What's Mum prepared to do herself to find a solution to this situation?"
You can ring your Mum. What would you achieve by ringing her? Take her out of the equation and what would benefit you.
You don't call either of them. How would you feel?
Love H&H xxx
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Portia,
Don't have much time to respond, but I totally relate and loved reading your thoughts!! I think you should call up your mother's brother and say something like the following (or put it in an email like I did to my Dad's brother, my uncle and his mother, my grandmother):
"I understand if you feel like you may be betraying my Mom if you accept this, but in order to have a relationship with me you must. I know that you probably feel it is your duty, somehow, to encourage me to try to have a relationship with Mom. To convince me that she “really does love me..” or that it is “for the good of all” to talk to her. Please do not try to do this, as it only prolongs what I must do, which is to detach from her (psychologically speaking—it is a therapist’s term). I understand that from your position, you are unable to be emotionally available to me—so you cannot ask how I feel about it, agree, or disagree with me, or tell me that you can see if from my point of view (ie, empathize). An honest examination of what I’ve said would probably cast many doubts on your own relationship with my Mom, and on your relationships with your parents as well, likely. Mental illness affects everyone in the family, whether we choose to believe it or not. My goal in my telling you a little about my relationship with my Mom is to protect myself. To stick up for what I know, and explain to people who might otherwise become confused by my actions, what I believe to be going on. I think she tries to manipulate and control me which is abusive. Your support and understanding of this isn’t really necessary, because I already have enough support--I have my best friend (my SO), I have a therapist, I have God, I have myself, and I have other friends and relatives who are sympathetic. My only goal in telling you this is so that you will understand why I do not call my Mother, or choose to be around her, or why I don’t know “what is up with her, or what the latest news is”; i.e., so that you will understand that I am detached—I’m not involved in her life. I am talking to everyone else in the family, so feel free to call me and ask about me, or anyone else and I’ll tell you what I know. Whatever story Mom tells you, please take it with a grain of salt. Obviously, you do not understand the depth of her problems, which is not surprising to me. You have not experienced her abuse as I have. I can still enjoy the relationship I have with you, even if you never understand this.
bean
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Hiya Portia:
Great post! Get 'er out!!
Hey! Why do you have to call anyone?
You've been told to? You agreed to?
The most beautiful thing about you is that you can change your mind, if you want to. :D 8) :D
Why phone anyone?
"Oh....yes......I did say I would, didn't I. Oh well. Changed my mind." (If he calls back and asks)
or
"That was yesterday. Today.....I don't think so." (if he calls back and wants to know why you haven't called).
I give in, I can’t think of what else to do.
Guess how many times in my life I've done this? Zillions, probably.
Then I think of all kinds of stuff I could have said or done, afterwards.
Now you've had a chance to reconsider and you can indeed do anything else, if you want to.
There's no law against changing your mind!!!
The ring-police don't know your mobile number!!! :mrgreen: (But....your mother does--she can call if she wants to).
Why is big brother trying to get baby girl to do what mommy wants? Is he just a little hooked? Is he a little like her? Poor dude.
And another thing........no worries. Forget it. Live today (my new basic advice :P). It was just a lousy phone call. Nothing to do with you, really. You can get on with enjoying cooking or tv or reading or whatever........and not give it another thought if you want to. You don't have to play the game. You don't have to let it upset you for another minute.
Stupid people and their stupid behaviour. Golly gee. Poor them.
How much can you hurt stupid people?
Who's hurting who??? :shock:
Life’s too short for this.
Absolutely!! On with it then!! Enjoy!! Forget idiots/ninncompoops and pathological people......today, if you want to. You can always change your mind tomorrow!!! :idea:
What a waste of time. Why do I have to waste my time on this?
Maybe because it feels weird to agree to do something you don't want to do, (if you don't want to), just because some supplier asks you to?
Maybe you feel like you've been manipulated and you needed to deal with that by expressing it?
Maybe you haven't wasted your time? Maybe you've just been open about what happened, how you feel and what you're thinking?
Maybe the feedback of other people....will help validate what you've been feeling and thinking? Bonus!!!
Great post P!!
If you don't feel like it or want to, you don't HAVE to call anyone! Hahahahahaha!!! The beauty of freedom!!!
Isn't it fabulous!!! :D
((((((((((((((((((((((P))))))))))))))))))))))
:D Sela
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Hey H&H good! :D Good. Thank you. I wanted you to laugh. Another secret ambition is stand-up comedy. Wow what a challenge eh? It appeals to me because it really is just you, alone, trying to connect, trying to raise a laugh, maybe dealing in things which make folks feel just a little stressed, nervous laughter followed by release laughter. I will never do it!
Oh choices. The more I type here, the happier I am. Ummmm okay. Let’s look at it.
He’s being go-between. I’ve been used as go-between and I feel kind of sad for him. Because he thinks it’s the right thing to do. Sort of. Actually he just wants to dump it and who can blame him. Or maybe he’s actually concerned about me (!) and thinks a chat with my ma will cheer me up? It’s possible.
I’m not calling her. Not right now. I need information first! What’s the situation here? Am I required for anything real? Or is it just BS?
I’ll call him because I want to know. I’m curious. And I can handle it. Even if it does annoy me.
If I don’t call either of them: I risk having a label applied to me in my absence. Could be “depressed” could be “bad daughter”. Do I care? Yep. I don’t actually want to hurt my mother or uncle. But I don’t want them on my doorstep either. Or getting my father on my case. If that happens, I just might start truth-telling!
Hiya and thanks Bean :D
I like your email. Did it do the job?
I don’t have relationships as such with anyone on the maternal side of my genes. I don’t see them. I’ve seen this uncle three/four times in the last 5 years. Before that, twice in 20 years. Before that, not a lot. I was pretty isolated. I care about my mother’s relatives as much as they are blood-related but that’s about it. I’ll go to weddings and funerals, maybe. Maybe not. It doesn’t matter to anyone; I’ve always been outside that family. And we’re all geographically apart. She’s got close to him recently and they spend a lot of time together. Do they have a relationship? Not in my terms. I’ve spent time around the two of them and there is no conversation. They tell jokes. Repeat old stories. Avoid anything remotely real. And they are not interested in other people. Including me!
Honestly I could just ignore this. But it wouldn’t be adult or responsible of me to do that and it puts power in the wrong place. He’s made a communication with me and I’ll respond. But on my terms! I’m now more interested in him and why he called me than in what mother is up to, or not up to. On the other hand, can I be bothered? Yes of course I can. I want to manage my public persona within the weird thing that is my ‘family’. Especially as there is a link to my father, which is a completely different and separate family. Haha. It’s all nonsense.
Oh look at the time. I might not have time to call today. Ooops. Oh maybe I do.
Thanks for the replies. It always helps to know I’m not bonkers.
Hey Sela just caught your reply, thank you. :D
The ring-police don't know your mobile number!!!
Yep you guessed I just guffawed so loud …haha :Dhahahahahaha *bonk* haha ooops *snortle* crawls back onto chair…. :D
Is he just a little hooked? Oh lots and lots. Not very healthy I feel. Way back down the line. Not healthy! :(
Who's hurting who??? Good question. Darn good question. The truth might set me free but I *feel* a ground zero would hurt a few people: mum, uncle, father. Or would it? It depends on how it might be presented I guess….
I guess about: why do I have to waste my time: it’s just saying it’s not fair again. It’s not fair that I have to learn all this, I have to understand it, I have to analyse it and yet again – be told it’s not my bloody responsibility to be responsible for other peoples’ thoughts and actions. Haha. You know, it’s not fair because not everyone has to learn all this stuff (do they?). I just want to know it and not have to analyse any more. I want instant understanding! “and I want it now!”
Dear superior being, please give me patience and give it to me NOW :D
Oh but I do have to manage things. I don’t want her turning up on the doorstep again. Like a couple of months back! Can you believe that? Out of the blue, unannounced. Boundaries, respect, reality?
Hey I have to go shopping. Too late to call today! :mrgreen:
Thanks all. I like the reality right here :D
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Hi Potia,
Not sure if you're looking for advice or just thinking out loud, but my thoughts on reading your post were, you got caught off guard. No more, no less. Ns always come up with new angles of attack.
IMO you said you would call so you should. Make it short and sweet and then learn from what occured. If you make the call and learn how to protect yourself better in the future then the episode was worth it. If you fret and vent and get a few good zingers in but leave yourself open to future manipulations then you get immediate satisfaction but no long term relief.
The problem is, thinking up things to say and getting upset about it is still a symptom of their manipulation.
Perhaps instead of analysing and learning all sorts of ways to interact it would be easier to learn to form a mental iron curtain. It stays up and out of sight while interacting with decent people and descends when dealing with dear ol mom and her cohort, leaving an emotionless dead pan Portia. Wouldn't that be easier to learn than to ananlyse and learn and understand all their junk? You don't have to waste your time doing that do you? Isn't that just another form of their manipulation?
If you respond and try to get to the bottom of why he called and learning about their relationship, don't you just remain an actor in their play? Would it be possible to let them play by themselves?
mud
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Hiya and thanks Mud :D
I’m still pondering. The thing is, I don’t vent, I don’t hit out, I listen. I listen to endless dross about superficial rubbish and they feel better. They feel they have a relationship. I stick up for myself somewhat, I don’t take any rubbish perceptions from them but really, they are like children.
All this stuff, it’s all in my head, or here in words, it doesn’t happen with other people. I mostly ignore and play the ‘so how are you?’ social game like you might with vague acquaintances. I’m very controlled around people like this now. It seems there are so many too. It’s draining.
thinking up things to say and getting upset about it is still a symptom of their manipulation
I don’t think about what I’m going to say in terms of attacking them. I’m thinking about what to say in terms of how to extract the pertinent information from them without upsetting anyone, including me. I am upset that my mother may now be using my uncle to get supply from me. But I could be wrong. I don’t know the facts – yet! But I don’t trust myself to talk to anyone until I’ve talked here and discussed my reactions, my feelings and thoughts.
Wouldn't that be easier to learn than to ananlyse and learn and understand all their junk?
I’m not understanding their junk now - I’m understanding my junk :D. Big difference! My junk is what’s in my head: their junk is what they say and do. What have they done exactly? Not much. My uncle has asked me to call my mother. Big deal? My reaction to that is for me to work on. That’s my junk; not theirs. See what I mean?
However, I am driven to understand! It’s how I am and I kind of like it, if you see what I mean. I’d rather keep learning and feeeeeling (even feeling bad) than close down. Closing down is repressing I feel for me. I did too much of that, too much being strong and fighting – fighting by turning away.
Does this make sense to you?
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Hiya Jac :D
You and I have soooooo much in common!!!
Oh yep, that’s why we fought! True though? Maybe? Seeing in each other the stuff neither wanted to see in ourselves, perhaps? Trying to tread carefully here! I think we have a good deal of stuff in common. I agree :D :D :D
so she won't have to be responsible
ohhhh good point (hits head). Put him in the middle. Yeah. Thanks. Makes sense.
It was toooo funny!!! Hey I want to entertain! I like it. Thanks Jac. :D
Shoot it’s way too late to do anything now. Gotta go. Thanks all again. :arrow:
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I’m not understanding their junk now - I’m understanding my junk . Big difference! My junk is what’s in my head: their junk is what they say and do. What have they done exactly? Not much. My uncle has asked me to call my mother. Big deal? My reaction to that is for me to work on. That’s my junk; not theirs. See what I mean?
Piffle and balderdash hon.... yes, if we look at facts then it can appear like that....
I'm not sure how long it is since you last spoke to your mother (I just typed mouther... possibly more accurate?), but whenever we haven't spoken to them for a while, it's a normal reaction because it IS a big deal. Your uncle called out of the blue, made small talk and asked you to ring your mother. Whatever decision you make has to be the right decision for YOU... no one else and it is OK to make a decision to suit you and your needs, not anyone else.
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Does this make sense to you?
Well..........no.
The venting I was referring to is the venting you are doing here, not to your relations.
I don't think, based on your post, that there is much doubt why he called you. I'm sure its exactly what you suspect.
I know this stuff is in your head. But my point is, its your mother in your head. Trying to analyse and understand something endlessly can itself be a form of manipulation.
You have decades of evidence that your mom is a problem. Is it better to analyze a problem or eliminate it?
If I come home and discover a burglar in my home, I'm not going to sit him down and find out if he was deprived as a child. I'm going to assist him in vacating the premises by any means necessary. There's always time to learn his story later, even if its from his next of kin.
However, I am driven to understand! It’s how I am and I kind of like it, if you see what I mean.
Well, if you like it then stop complaining and just enjoy yourself. Just kidding.
I’d rather keep learning and feeeeeling (even feeling bad) than close down.
Why do you think those are your only options? Maybe there's a third option of evicting her from your cranium and actually feeeeeeling good. Simplistic? Maybe, but I think you're going down a dark and endless tunnel seeking to understand and analyze your mom.
mud
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Hi Portia,
Interesting post. I've read and reread it because it has so many interesting little insights and observations. It's is kind of neat when someone opens up completely and lets others inside their head. I think we all think much the same as you have demonstrated, but not everyone has the self confidence and courage to just open up that can and let others look inside. The benefit to others can't be measured. I know I learn a lot about myself reading your posts. Thanks.
I'm analytical as you are P and so my head would be spinning trying to figure out what was really going on here and you are right that much of it could well be my junk as you put it. I find that I get more answers and deeper understanding when I can figure my junk out rather than trying to figure out their junk given so few facts to go on.
Now if you really want to get to the bottom of this and know for sure whether there is some behind the scenes antics going on (which there may well be. If we can think it, it's probably been done and is being done is my feeling) just pick up that phone and ask in your nicest more respectable voice, "so uncle --------- I'm curious, if you can be honest with me, tell me, did my mother ask you to call me?" And leave it at that. No matter what he answers, you know it will have to be reanalyzed again and the game goes on and on till we think we've found the truth.
I wasted much time in those types of investigations and analysis. Now I try to work with what I know best, the junk in my head.
Why are you upset Portia? Is it because you feel obligated to call mom now because you said you would or is it because you said you would and really didn't want to. Are you upset with yourself, your mom or your uncle?
CeeMee
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Look Portia,
You obviously don't want to phone or you would have already done. You feel as if you have to for some reason. Why let your mother's devious plan succeed?
In your place I would try to avoid any type of contact with those folks. Don't take any responsibility for them. If you have feelings, try to let them go. They are not going to lead to anything useful, nor is that Everest of analysis you feel obligated to climb.
If you by an old reflex said you would phone, right now you can release yourself from that. You are free.
Listen to your own voice and do what you really want to do.
Plucky
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Portia, I can imagine how furious you are. I would be too. IMHO, as long as we stay within the N orbit, we will be subjected to their games. The only way out is to cut off all contact, at least for sometimes. Then if you choose to reconnect, it is easier to reestablish boundaries. Otherwise she wll play this game on and on.
love the online library system! I reserved another two Alice Miller books online yesterday.
Sounds greeat. Which online library has Alice Miller BTW?
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Hi there Portia:
Honestly I could just ignore this. But it wouldn’t be adult or responsible of me to do that and it puts power in the wrong place.
Says who? Is this belief helping you? What if, you decided?.....
"Honestly, I could just ignore this and it would probably be very adult and responsible of me to do that. That way I take back my power. It puts the power in the right place".
:shock: :shock:
Personally, I think I like the second belief better. Who must we be responsible to first? Them or ourselves?Isn't it adult to ignor childish behaviour and just carry on, praise the good behaviour we see? Isn't one of the biggest powers we have.... the power to decide how to react to the nonsense?
I'm glad the ring police thingy gave you a laugh! So important to laugh inbetween squirming and racking brain cells, eh? :lol:
Who's hurting who??? Good question. Darn good question. The truth might set me free but I *feel* a ground zero would hurt a few people: mum, uncle, father. Or would it? It depends on how it might be presented I guess….
Ok.....I'm not really sure what you mean by ground zero ('cause half the time I'm up in the clouds :roll:) but how about this:
You embrace the truth within you and.....biggie coming........ACCEPT.....that they never will embrace anything anywhere near the truth?
I know....that's not fun or fair or nice or easy. Other than that....it's a breeze!! :D And best of all.......it will probably set you free, just like you said! 8)
Are they hurting you or are you hurting you by allowing their stuff in your head? By spending your precious time thinking about their behaviour and feeling stuff/reacting to it??
I was thinking about this a lot last night. I think (get ready.......this is a doozy.... :shock: :shock:):
I think we might alll have a similar problem!!! :shock: :shock:
and that is:
our difficulty accepting that we must banish those who hurt us .....from our heads/brains/minds......for the very most part.........
and excavate them/their behaviour/the pain we've experienced because of them, scrape out just about everything that bugs us about them.....debride the rotting fleshy crap that's accumulated in there and
STOP ourselves from reacting to any more of their garbage. IGNOR becomes our primary reaction!!
Not an easy task but it just seems to me that once done........there will be waaaaaaaay more peace within.
I just want to know it and not have to analyse any more.
Maybe analysing is actually a sign of recovering? Maybe, before this....you might have said:
"Ok (in a cute, high pitch tone), I'll call" and immediately dialed the number, without even questioning what you were doing or why?
It seems like you've recognized something is out of place, fairly quickly...and that's a good thing! Now that you're alert...your thoughts soar and emotions kick in....... and that's ok too. But.....even better would maybe be:
Notice. Alert. Aware. Choose not to react. Ignor???
I don't know. It's not like I'm a master at it!!!(hahahahahaha!! I'm not a master at anything and proud of it!!!! :D)
Dear superior being, please give me patience and give it to me NOW :D
Hahahahahahaha!!! Heeheeheeheehee! I ask for this every day!!! I'll never have enough!!! Or fast enough!!!
I don’t want her turning up on the doorstep again.
If you really think calling her will prevent this from happening.......then go ahead and call, even though I bet you don't really want to.
My best guess is......you can't control her. I think....she'll do whatever she decides to do and you have no power over that. She may show up on your doorstep, regardless, if she feels like it...and you can't stop her.
YOU CAN ONLY CONTROL HOW YOU REACT TO THIS STUPID STUFF OF THEIRS.
Am I right or am I right?????????????? :D :D :D
never mind. for once....I might be right. (Or else I'm cracked eh? :? :roll: :mrgreen:)
The thing is, I don’t vent, I don’t hit out, I listen. I listen to endless dross about superficial rubbish and they feel better.
If she calls or shows up and you don't have time or feel like doing this......and you decide not to...........
if you decide to ignor her and get on with whatever you intended to do...........which you can do politely.......no need to hurt anyone......the good news is................................no one will die.
:D :D
Maybe there's a third option of evicting her from your cranium and actually feeeeeeling good.
Amen Brother Mud!
:D Sela
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Hey Portia,
To me, this whole thing is a dazzling (and so helpful) discussion of the enormous power of a guilt trip.
Underneath all the fury is probably the worst self-punishment...all that reacting comes from an "unhealthy guilt" place.
Maybe if we can get rid of shame through tons of compassion for ourselves, making a call, or ignoring a manipulative request...
ust won't work us up like that.
I
do
not
like
shame
I heard once that "normal" guilt is okay, since we all need it. It just alerts us to "Oh, I've made a mistake. Now I'll do what I can to amend it. "
But toxic shame is the feeling, whether you did or did not make a mistake, "I am the mistake."
Plus, being pressured to contact your mother has a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge weight of cultural pressure and expectation behind it. So maybe on some gut level, the internal battle is with your conscious knowledge that you're being manipulated and you reject that part of it, but then there's also the other part, the programmed daughter who can't help pipe up, "Well who refuses to just make a phone call to their mother? Why's it such a big deal?"
I think guilt trips like that can trigger big-deal shame, even when our brains know it's truly undeserved. And when we feel shamed, we feel infuriated, because toxic shame represents a violation of our sense of ourselves, which is fragile.
So we have to fight really hard for ourselves.
Like, maybe you weren't just fighting off a phone call. You were fighting off a huge guilt trip.
You WON just by battling it all through so consciously, I think.
Now, whatever you, call back or don't bother---you really have done it CONSCIOUSLY. Good on you.
One more thought. I think children of Ns sometimes desperately want choices to become black and white, because N's psyches are such a ghoulish shade of gray.
But gray's also normal. Some ambivalence is just human.
I mean, there's no perfect answer. There's just a good-enough one. (The one you choose will be good enough.)
Hugs,
Hopalong
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Portia (((((((((hugs))))))))))
Keep us posted.... I'm guessing you've given this a lot of thought... did you decide anything?
H&H xx
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Hiya all. :D Your replies are all so helpful, and taken together, add up to wayyyy more than the sum of the parts! I’m picking out some particulars to answer/acknowledge. Things have moved on but I’m errrrr reviewing.
Sela: Why is big brother trying to get baby girl to do what mommy wants?
That’s my question. This is new and odd. Not happened before. Interesting.
Mud: Perhaps instead of analysing and learning all sorts of ways to interact it would be easier to learn to form a mental iron curtain. It stays up and out of sight while interacting with decent people and descends when dealing with dear ol mom and her cohort, leaving an emotionless dead pan Portia.
I can see your point Mud. That mental iron curtain. It’s a tricky thing. I used to have a steel sheet that clanked down in my head. Useful dissociating for whatever reasons there were, and I don’t know all of them. I still probably have a problem deciding who are decent people and who aren’t. How do you decide who are ‘safe’ people? How can you be sure? Ahh the ‘ick’ factor yes. And other feelings. Mom is not safe, heck I know that. Is he her cohort? That is the question. Just how unsafe is he? I don’t know. I don’t like not knowing.
Idea! He rang me. Really unusual. He paid me some attention (sort of?). I still want attention? Maybe I’m just curious.
H&H: (I just typed mouther... possibly more accurate?) :D hahaaaaaa! I like that. I type odd things too. I used to have problems typing the word ‘pension’ in my job. :| Just a wee transposition in the middle of the word, before spell-check was automatic. Ooops.
Mud: I don't think, based on your post, that there is much doubt why he called you. I'm sure its exactly what you suspect.
Yep, but it’s so new and unexpected I have to deal with it. Not jump to conclusions or make assumptions.
Well, if you like it then stop complaining and just enjoy yourself. Just kidding.
Hey! :D I know you’re joking but this is interesting. Were you told this as a kiddie? Stop – complaining/being sad/angry/upset. Stop feeling. Lots of folks grew up with this. Having their feelings denied.
but I think you're going down a dark and endless tunnel seeking to understand and analyze your mom.
Big difference that you’ve caused me to realise. And it’s quite a measurement of how I’ve changed too (gives self pat on back). When I got the message, my brain took no time to say: mother is misbehaving. Mother is wrong, if it is her behind this. There’s no hesitation now in me knowing exactly what my mother is like. I’m not analysing her in this event – not at all. I’m questioning uncle’s sudden involvement, and my own reactions. But I’m not questioning her motives. I know what they are! For sure! Which is great. Thanks Mud. :D
CeeMee: Are you upset with yourself, your mom or your uncle?
Great question. On the face of it, angry at her for involving him. Healthy anger towards her. Underneath – lots more!.....
Plucky: that Everest of analysis
love it! I'm going to use that phrase. And I do like a challenge.
Marta: Which online library has Alice Miller BTW
Sorry I might have misled you there – I only reserved the books online; I still have to plod over to the real library to collect them. It was a really small achievement!
Sela: Maybe analysing is actually a sign of recovering? Maybe, before this....you might have said: "Ok (in a cute, high pitch tone), I'll call" and immediately dialed the number, without even questioning what you were doing or why?
Before - I don’t know but probably. Maybe. Don’t know. It hasn’t happened before. No-one has ever intervened like this before....except....step-dad :evil: :idea: :roll: This is why it really threw me.
YOU CAN ONLY CONTROL HOW YOU REACT TO THIS STUPID STUFF OF THEIRS
Oh so true. I can’t control anything else even if I desperately want to. And part of me of course wants to! I know what’s best for other people and I want them to do as I say!!! Hahahahaha. I’ve still got some of this nagging away. Control is such a biggie. I caught myself giving unasked-for advice recently and actually felt bad about it for a whole day. Even though it was darn good advice. Funnily enough the recipient listened and decided to act - not what I suggested he do, but an action to avert the possible bad consequences of his decision. So I felt better. And useful. And he didn’t hate me! Tick.
Hoppy:
And when we feel shamed, we feel infuriated, because toxic shame represents a violation of our sense of ourselves, which is fragile.
So we have to fight really hard for ourselves.
Like, maybe you weren't just fighting off a phone call. You were fighting off a huge guilt trip.
Absolutely. Your post is the reason I went back to John Bradshaw last night – the poem “My name is toxic shame”. That’s powerful stuff. You know it? I didn’t feel that poem before, I was intellectual-reading, but now I get it.
It’s such hard work. Reading and re-reading and thinking and feeling and knowing that words mean something different when you re-read – then a bit of shame! How could I have missed that? How could I have not understood that? Why am I so stupid? Why can’t I see all this when everyone else can?
I let myself off those hooks, no worries. Do you see some black and white in my thinking? Let me know. I like to know, as you know! And I can’t see it myself……
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Oh! What did I actually DO?
I thought some more.
Sometimes I feel Bad for Thinking So Much. Sometimes I tell myself that I should just forget it, go out, do something. Sometimes I feel very Guilty for typing on this board. I feel like I’m Wasting my Time.
Then I look at those feelings, thoughts, beliefs and say: says who? If I enjoy being here, if I learn from being here, if I learn from thinking, if I learn from analysing – if I remain curious and talkative and vulnerable and honest
isn’t that okay?
Are we allowed just to do and think what we want to?
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Of course that's ok.... Why can't you think some more? Is there a timeframe on this, a deadline?
I don't think so.....
Are we allowed just to do and think what we want to?
Portia....lol... (Said in sternest H&H voice... if I wore classes I'd lower them!) How many times have you told me to trust in my own thoughts, feelings and opinions?
-
I did DO something but now I’m thinking of a whole load of other questions. How about these statements:
“All this thinking about the past, it’s not doing you any good. You’ll just upset yourself more.”
“I’m worried that you’re becoming addicted to that board/the internet.”
“Some things are best left alone/unanswered/buried.”
“She / he is an old person now. There’s no point in upsetting them.”
“Wouldn’t you like to be doing something productive instead of wasting your time…?”
and this absolutely real one from a qualified nurse at a doctor’s surgery:
“So no more therapy for you! Go out and play tennis instead.”
It’s a wonder we survive at all! :D
-
hahaha I'm on a roll:
Warning - while you were reading a new reply has been posted. You may wish to review your post.
Toxic shame! Why would I wish to review my post? :D :D :D
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Hiya H&H how are you doing? How's my friend the adult abused child? AAC for short I suppose. A while ago we used to talk about ACONs here - Adult Child Of Narcissist. I'm glad that's fallen by the wayside. Too much like Acorn. I-am-not-an-acorn :D
I am an adult abused child. It's just a fact. Or is it an opinion? I don't care. :D
there's more.....
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(((H&H))) is there a timeframe on this, a deadline? I don't think so.....
I'm soooo glad you said that. Thank you :D
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I'm good thanks Portia hon....
I did DO something but now I’m thinking of a whole load of other questions. How about these statements:
“All this thinking about the past, it’s not doing you any good. You’ll just upset yourself more.”
Ok... this could be true.... you could upset yourself more. But is it a crime? And what happens afterwards.... sometimes it helps to upset to be able to move forward....
“I’m worried that you’re becoming addicted to that board/the internet.”
Are you? Are you worried about becomming addicted to the board? If you do/are, who will it hurt.... No one.
“Some things are best left alone/unanswered/buried.”
I have trouble with this one myself.... how do we move on if we bury them and leave it unanswered?
“She / he is an old person now. There’s no point in upsetting them.”
She may be an old person.... but why should you worry about upsetting them?
“Wouldn’t you like to be doing something productive instead of wasting your time…?”
Wouldn't we all.... depends what you class as wasting your time. Working on yourself.... that's hardly wasting your time in my book.... you know, just my opinion!
and this absolutely real one from a qualified nurse at a doctor’s surgery:
“So no more therapy for you! Go out and play tennis instead.”
Belting a tennis ball around could be theraputic... how to get all that pent up aggression out!
......... All this from an AAC :lol:
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Hiya P:
You have such a great brain!!
Why is big brother trying to get baby girl to do what mommy wants?
That’s my question. This is new and odd. Not happened before. Interesting.
Next question: What if baby girl won't dooooooo what big brother and mommy want?
It hasn’t happened before. No-one has ever intervened like this before....except....step-dad This is why it really threw me.
So does it feel the same but different now? The same or similar or is this sending signals making you want to scream:
"This is like step-dad.....like what step-dad would do......like what happened when step-dad....!!!!!!!"
Different because of time and place and it being a different person...not step-dad? Projection or red flag?
This is tricky stuff eh? Thinking is good, I think ("It's fun to have fun!!", said the Cat in the Hat).
I caught myself giving unasked-for advice recently and actually felt bad about it for a whole day. Even though it was darn good advice. Funnily enough the recipient listened and decided to act - not what I suggested he do, but an action to avert the possible bad consequences of his decision. So I felt better. And useful. And he didn’t hate me! Tick.
You're very good at beating yourself up needlessly for stuff that hasn't done any harm whatsoever eh?
Glad you decided you are useful and feel better about it all.
What kind of person hates someone for giving them unwanted advice??
How many times in your life have you been given unwanted advice and did you hate the person who gavie it?
When that happened to me I felt like asking the person to refrain but I also believed they were trying to help.
But......would you or I do that? Are we honest enough to say: "Hey! Thanks but no thanks!". Or is it just common courtesy to listen and thank them politely and then choose what to do? Neither thing will cause death, I bet. Or hate (not in healthy people).
Intention does mean something, doesn't it? It does count? Didn't you intend to try to help? Do you see giving advice as controlling? Do they havvvvvvvvve to follow the advice?
You're not bad P. Not a bad girl at all. :D :D
Why am I so stupid? Why can’t I see all this when everyone else can?
How many times do I ask myself this? It's helping me to see you write it.....this is what passed through your head right? Me too. Passes through mine all the time. And it's work to fight these kinds of thoughts off eh? Glad you let yourself "off those hooks".
Truth is. Neither you nor I are stupid. So why do we think stuff like this sometimes? For me.....I feeeeeeeeeel stupid......it's a real feeling or feelings that arise with these thoughts ( :D Imagine the kindergarten teacher trying to explain that one to the class? "Now class.....we all have many feelings. Happy, sad, angry, stupid..... Little Johnny: "What's feeling stupid like?" Teacher: "It's icky". :shock: :lol:
Emotions take over and interfere in thinking and then thoughts take over and interfere in emotions. That's my take on it. It's not stupidity.....not a lack of brain cell power......it's an actual over riding of thinking with feeling and then one kind of thought persists generating certain persistent feelings....like a switch in train tracks or something...redirecting thought and feeling (there's probably a much better example than that but I can't think of it!!). Hey! Maybe I ammm stupid!!! That would explain a few things. No. No. That's not right either. :roll: I just believe I'm stupid....because I'm not perfect and then, usually, I end up challenging that belief/the thoughts that lead me there and I soothe myself. Thanks P. I'm not the only one maybe?
If I enjoy being here, if I learn from being here, if I learn from thinking, if I learn from analysing – if I remain curious and talkative and vulnerable and honest isn’t that okay?
Sounds good to me. Ok......think of the opposite. What if:
You didn't come here and post. You didn't learn a thing from being here. Didn't learn from thinking. Didn't analyse anything (just went around bumping into one experience after another....in some robotic state). What if you stopped being curious and didn't talk and kept yourself very safe by never being vunerable, never opening yourself up, or leaving yourself open? What if you weren't honest?
Would you like yourself or any of that better? Ok.....so I know how to think in black and white too. Too well.
But I bet you'll get my drift. Even leaning more toward that way would be less healthy.....less enriching....less okay. IMO.
How about these statements:
“All this thinking about the past, it’s not doing you any good. You’ll just upset yourself more.”
“I’m worried that you’re becoming addicted to that board/the internet.”
“Some things are best left alone/unanswered/buried.”
“She / he is an old person now. There’s no point in upsetting them.”
“Wouldn’t you like to be doing something productive instead of wasting your time…?”
If there is any truth to these statements, can you handle it? Will you consider making changes to correct whatever you believe is not best for you/others?
If these statements are all a honking bag of hogwash, will you discard them? Ignor them? Foget them and decide not to let them upset you any more?
and this absolutely real one from a qualified nurse at a doctor’s surgery:
“So no more therapy for you! Go out and play tennis instead.”
Qualified? Doubtful. Not quality either. Did you take this to heart? So sorry if that happened. It's not up to such people to make such decisions, is it? Was she just abusing her position of power?
Sounds like something a nanny might say to a child:
"No more candy for you young lady! Off you go to the play ground!"
Ooooo. Gives me a yucky feeling. "Good night noisse!!!" (Archie Bunker).
Goofy nurse. Needs retraining. Maybe that wouldn't help. Needs a spanking ( :shock: :lol: :lol:). Oh no, not really. Wouldn't help either. Needs a brain transplant. That might work!
:D Sela
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What if baby girl won't dooooooo what big brother and mommy want?
Nothing. Nothing!
Projection or red flag?
Possibly both :D
Intention does mean something, doesn't it? It does count? Didn't you intend to try to help? Do you see giving advice as controlling? Do they havvvvvvvvve to follow the advice?
Thanks Sela. I worked out this one. I mean, I worked out the interaction between me and this person. It’s not me, it’s him. I keep catching icky feelings from him and I worked out why. He’s telling me to back off his brain and that’s okay. It’s his brain!
The nurse? Just young, inexperienced and yet again, flinging her icky feelings my way. Therapy? Good grief, call the men in white coats!
There’s a lot of fear out there.
Love, P
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Hey Miz Portia,
I think you are on a marathon of awareness, a real and really impressive growth spurt.
(You may be exhausted after a bit, but this is good stuff. I think it's going to sink in and stregthen you.)
And I agree with everybody who says there's nothing whatsoever wrong with you thinking so hard.
You're just thinking out loud (here) is all, and helping everyone else while you do.
So thank YOU.
Hugs,
Hopalong
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“All this thinking about the past, it’s not doing you any good. You’ll just upset yourself more.”
Thinking about the past is not upsetting in itself, it's WHAT you are thinking about the past. It's those mean messages you are giving your poor put-upon self.
“I’m worried that you’re becoming addicted to that board/the internet.”
It's great to be addicted to something that is legal, not harmful to the health, and virtually free, isn't it!
“Some things are best left alone/unanswered/buried.”
Well. Best for whom. The perpetrators?
“She / he is an old person now. There’s no point in upsetting them.”
If you don't upset them now, you may not have another chance. Go for it!
“Wouldn’t you like to be doing something productive instead of wasting your time…?”
No. I'm a slacker at heart. And you Pluckies out there, implying that I'm too analytical....just because you can't sustain a long post/thought doesn't mean it's a bad thing! [Actually, I just meant that you should not reach analysis paralysis, and listen to your gut. And follow your gut. Analysis can go anywhere (and often does) but the gut doesn't lie, or rationalise.)
“So no more therapy for you! Go out and play tennis instead.”
Great prescription! So my club fees will be paid by health insurance?
I thnk I saw someone calling themselves stupid up here. Well let's say worst case scenario...we are stupid. Is that something we ought to blame ourselves for?
Plucky
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Hopalong:
Thanks so much for the toxic shame direction. Much needed light shining on all of my emotions.
Sela:
repeating what you said to get it into my head:
You're very good at beating yourself up needlessly for stuff that hasn't done any harm whatsoever eh?
Yes yes yes so…..I’ll beat myself up about that! Haha. See that TS just go whoooosh over my head? Love it. :D
How many times in your life have you been given unwanted advice and did you hate the person who gavie it?
Only two people really did this to me. Okay. I get it. And it wasn’t advice was it? No. No. :x I was told it was advice.
Yeah. Feeeeling stupid is not being stupid. Good. More TS.
What if you stopped being curious and didn't talk and kept yourself very safe by never being vunerable, never opening yourself up, or leaving yourself open? What if you weren't honest?
You know what I want to know? I want to know: how many people are like me/us. How many people are ‘balanced’. How many people are like those closed up people? What does that boil down to……where do I fit in? Meaning…..what is my role? What can I do that no-one else can do? yeah I guess I mean that. I am getting there.
H&H and Plucky, I agree with you both. I laughed out loud:
“She / he is an old person now. There’s no point in upsetting them.”
If you don't upset them now, you may not have another chance. Go for it!
[Actually, I just meant that you should not reach analysis paralysis, and listen to your gut. And follow your gut. Analysis can go anywhere (and often does) but the gut doesn't lie, or rationalise.) Thanks Plucky.
REVELATION TO SELF
This occurred to me and it felt like being struck by a big shaft of sunlight. I received something from mother which is basically a veiled request to attend something and adore her like her mother could have. My thoughts were: sheeesh, how sad, she really wants me to be her mom; I’m not being her mom; however, she has made a real achievement here, maybe I could acknowledge it?; it wouldn’t hurt me to do something; hmmm maybe I should go? And then the ray of sunlight:
I don’t want to!!!!!!!! Shazzzam. Hahahahaha! Sorry folks, so simple, so trite and yet sooooooo about what I feel. And that it’s okay to feel and do what I want to. Or what I don’t want to.
I’m going to practice: “No thanks, I don’t want to.” :D
No reasons, no excuses, no nothing. Just what I don’t want. And the sun is shining today too! This is so simple and so complicated.
Thanks all for helping. You help so much.
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Awww, Portia.
Hope you know how much you help by sharing your thought-stream.
You're one of those people who makes me feel stronger in myself.
Here, wanna help me with something? A really complicated huge thing?
I can't figure out how to make the purple Quote thing work. Everytime I hit Quote, even if I've hightlighted just a short little part of somebody's post...it quotes the whole thing. What am I doing wrong? Or is that the way it's supposed to work? (You get the entire post quoted whether you like it or not and then you have to delete everything you don't want to show?) Is it like a tag where you have to poke the Quote thing at the beginning and end of the part you wanna quote? I haven't tried that yet...(dunno html).
There's a deep one for you.
:lol:
Hugs,
Hops
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Hi Portia:
Hopalong:
Thanks so much for the toxic shame direction. Much needed light shining on all of my emotions.
Ditto from me (Sela) Hoppy. I've been really thinking about that since you posted (in regard to my stuff). Thanks.
Yeah. Feeeeling stupid is not being stupid.
Oh yes!! I feel better already!! Thanks P. I needed that!! I'm not stupid afterall!!! I just feeeeeeeeeeel stupid sometimes!!!!! I make stupid mistakes and then I feel stupid but it's not because I ammmmmmmm stupid! Hahahahaha!!! It's because I'm not perfect!!! ( :mrgreen: Just love that litte green guy!).
I want to know: how many people are like me/us. How many people are ‘balanced’.
Are you balanced??? :shock: (just kidding around eh!! :mrgreen:)
Am I??? :shock: :shock: :shock: (don't know if I'm joking or not?? maybe I am? maybe not? ok....I am. :D).
How many people are like those closed up people?
Let's see.......1, 2, 3, 12, 22, 64, 77......wait.........I can't count that high!!!
What does that boil down to……where do I fit in? Meaning…..what is my role?
When you find out, let me know please? I think some of us might be somewhere around the 60 to 70 % balanced mark and others...80-90....and then there's those under 50ers......and the odd........less than 20. Ya. I wonder what percentage feels what percentage??
On a scale of 1 to 100.....how do you feel? (lately, most days). For me.........I'm happy to report....about 75%. That's a huge improvement over what I might have said......even a year ago! Some days, I really felt like I was losing it!!
Now I feel like I've claimed a good bit back and still claiming!!! :arrow:
What can I do that no-one else can do? yeah I guess I mean that. I am getting there.
Now that's a different question. You can look at you and your behaviour and your feelings and your thoughts and you can actually spend time considering stuff. Hahahaha!! You can think Portia!!! It's a talent P!!! You have it!!! Not a bad thing at all. Much better than being.......numb or blind. Some people are numb and blind. Poor them. Never think about a thing. :roll:
it’s okay to feel and do what I want to. Or what I don’t want to.
Amen Portia!
I’m going to practice: “No thanks, I don’t want to.”
Me too. I'm too good with excuses, reason, explanations. This is helping me too P. Yep. :D
"No thanks".
How about that? Just "No thanks". Will I do it?? Will you?
Mother: "Would you like to attend and worship me?"
Portia: "No thanks".
Mother: "Why not?"
Portia: "No thanks".
My Abuser: "(Nasty, derogatory, manipulative, insulting, rude, b-capital-S question?)".
Me: "No thanks".
My Abuser: "Why not?"
Me: "No thanks".
(even though I don't have direct contact........words start to play out in my head. I can say: "No thanks").
Like that a couple of little red engines: "We think we can!! We think we can!!"
You help so much.
So do you Portia. Thanks to you too. :D
Sela
PS: Hoppy:
1. Left click and highlight the exact words you want to quote.
2. Right click and click "copy".
3. Place curser where you want to put the words in your post.
4. Right click and paste.
5. Left click and highlight again (what you've pasted).
6. Left click the little yellow quote thingy above.
7. The word quote in square brackets will appear at both ends of the words you pasted.
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Thank you! That's brilliant! You do the quote thingy AFTER you put in the text! Holey Moley, who'd-a thunkit???? Dang, and I was feel so ashamed of being tech-challenged.
Did I say ashamed? I didn't say that. It was my Evil Twin Doris.
But while I'm at it, in terms of NOTICING anything, I just now noticed the word "More" next to the emoticons. ALL THIS TIME I've assumed that you, Sela, had a magical insider-knowlege supply (no pun intended) of secret super-special emoticons that Luddites like me weren't allowed access to!!!
Holey Moley! Well if you'll pardon just this brief exercise in emoti-delight...
:mrgreen: :roll: :oops: :oops: :oops: :wink: :wink:
(And you are both Sela and Portia very welcome for the toxic shame emotion link thought. Ain't a new idea but I'm glad I thunkit when it was useful.) I am definitely vulnerable to shame-triggers (anger and tears out of all proportion to the event or decision or remark usually clue me in...AFTERWARD, dammitall).
I am starting to think that if I tune in better I could actually feel the difference between appropriate guilt and toxic shame. For example, I felt very guilty for blowing up and using a curse word at my daughter once when she'd been criticizing me nonstop through a long phone call. I suddenly just roared "F** it! I'm a good mother! I'm a good enough mother!!" I don't LIKE talking to my child that way and I don't LIKE having exploded. It's not my usual doting tolerant MO. Anyway, she was needing to cut back the criticism but I did feel guilty for roaring. (I am anger phobic and horrified by roaring.) So...I felt really guilty about that. But it wasn't toxic shame.
I have felt that a lot when somebody accuses me of something that I could in any way interpret as a flaw in character. I think TShame feels like something cold and clutching inside. I feel slowed down, chilled, even a little frightened. (I don't feel that way with ordinary guilt, which I can think about clearly in my head untiil I figure out what to do to make amends. Usually a simple apology.) I think the TShame is about the early religious training which emphasized sin and evil so much that I felt if I did anything wrong I was horrible. (I know the teachings also included forgiveness and redemption, but I also got them filtered through NMom's blankness and my brother's bullying...and in some way, with those things going on, I internalized those "sin" messages in a creepy way.)
whew. Thanks for listening to all that.
Hops
Hopalong
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I have felt that a lot when somebody accuses me of something that I could in any way interpret as a flaw in character.
Hi Hoppy. For years I walked around going from 0 to 60 whenever a criticism such as this cropped up. One day I heard someone responding to some criticism like this: "Well, I'm not perfect!" Said with some calm humor and zero defensiveness. This was a light bulb moment for me. I'm not perfect, I'm not meant to be perfect, I have my flaws, that's ok, it's natural, I can admit it, the sky won't fall.....it was a nice blurb I can carry with me and trot out whenever I feel attacked.
I yell at my kids too and the only remedy is to take responsibility right away and say you lost it and there is no excuse but you felt very XXXX. This is I think more instructive than just never making a mistake, right? I mean, I'm not perfect!
Plucky
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calm humor and zero defensiveness
Thanks, Plucky. That is definitely something to hold up in front of my mind.
(I can get very defensive when my daughter starts harping...and she's a chip off the old block so we trigger the same stupid cycle in each other. When we had the argument the other night we were literally talking OVER each other, neither one budging--so of course nobody got heard at all. It felt awful.)
I did apologize. She doesn't do that often, but when she realized how upset I was she was sweet to me later. I know she cares but sometimes she forgets just the little things that would show it.
I think part of it was I felt so sick and wanted comfort.
But calm humor and zero defensiveness would be a MUCH better way to go.
Thanks for the good guidance, or good thing to aim for.
(I am so relieved you aren't perfect either. My parents NEVER argued or raised their voices. My brother bullied me but it was silent, behind-their-backs terrorizing. So anger and arguing and shouting just never happened...so I don't know how to cope with them. Never too late to learn, I hope.)
Hopalong
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There’s no hesitation now in me knowing exactly what my mother is like. I’m not analysing her in this event – not at all.
I don’t want to!!!!!!!! Shazzzam. Hahahahaha! Sorry folks, so simple, so trite and yet sooooooo about what I feel. And that it’s okay to feel and do what I want to. Or what I don’t want to.
Portia, I think these are really quite big steps. I mean really, really big. Hold on to what you've achieved and don't let anyone make you backtrack.
From what I remember of your earlier posts, you had issues around ignoring/being ignored. So your mother is manipulating her way through right into your issues, by making you feel that you are ignoring her. Hang on to this feeling of entitlement you've achived over your own time and attention.
HUgs, Marta
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It's a biggie :D actually it's huge :shock:. I'm gonna cut it in half....
Hopalong:
You're one of those people who makes me feel stronger in myself.
I understand this now. I understand that it doesn’t have to be competitive!! Nothing has to be competitive. It’s not about black/white right/wrong good/bad better than/worse than…..wiser than/thicker than!!!!
Toxic shame infects and distorts every other emotion, even joy. Sadness. All emotions.
“I am the master emotion
I am the internal voice that whispers words of condemnation”
the whole meditation (I’d call it a poem) is right here: http://www.goddirect.org/mindemtn/writings/january/toxshame.htm
I don’t enjoy being picked out to shine. I had an experience where I was picked out to shine (at work) and I felt really very odd and strange. Like it was happening to someone else. (What, I dissociated from success??) Mind you, it was done in the form of a video which I watched so …. I wasn’t really shining as me, but as an image of me. Anyway, that’s by the by (maybe?). I can’t work out what was so odd about the feelings associated. In fact, I would say I didn’t know what to feel? ‘Okay’ about it? Modest? Proud? Rightfully happy to be chosen? (icky) Maybe I was sitting waiting for someone to say…….”Oh aren’t you the clever one?” “Hope you don’t get too big for your boots!” “Who does she think she is…?”…….
Hey I’d really like to have a copy of that video! I could watch it now and think yay, I did that! Hahaha. Maybe I’ll do something new instead eh? Yes.
If I can help you feel stronger, that makes me feel stronger too. Wow.
Hang on, toxicity. Can I try this out?
Sadness + toxic shame = ?? I feel that I am bad for feeling sad. I feel that I’m flawed in the way I feel sad. I can’t just be sad.
Joy + toxic shame = ? I feel happy happy! But it’s not genuine? My feelings are fraudulent? I know it won’t last? I might be a bit stuck here….anyone got other descriptions ??
Anger + toxic shame = oh well, easy. I’m really angry and …. I’m bad for feeling it! I’m guilty about my legitimate anger! I’m a bad person for being angry. Not just : I am angry.
That’s it isn’t it? With toxic shame there’s always the underlying feeling – I am bad/worthless/a mistake over-riding and muddying the plain emotion.
I am happy. I am sad. I am angry – they’re always followed by - BUT I’m bad….
Gosh!
Sela:
I wonder what percentage feels what percentage??
Hahaaaaaaaaaaa! :D Good point. And very funny. :D
How do I feel? More than 50% and that’s darn good. Anytime 50%+ is excellent! If -50% is numbed out, frozen, acting out, co-dependent, depressed…anything more is a bonus. Yep. I feel about ….. 60% maybe. Maybe more. That’s how I would judge myself against my image of the most self-aware, self-accepting person. Oooooo. Maybe that’s too high given that criteria? Hahaha this is not a good route to go down I feeeeel! Measuring, comparing ……
Ah maybe if we think of a new-born baby being at 100%? Okay (*thinks* *attempts to think* *tries harder*)….
…..(brain just tried to make a run for the door) ….
…augnnnneraughhhhh….nnnnnfff…
Sorry. No can do. Well okay. Maybe it depends on when, who, why….
Sometimes I feel 99% (studying something so closely, intently, that I lose myself: or maybe lost in a great big huge laugh)
Sometimes 51% (holding those toxic shame + anger thoughts inside my head and not letting them spill out of my big gob)
Less than 50%? It’s bound to happen every once in a while isn’t it? So I won’t feel bad if/when it does.
Glad that’s sorted out then! Major achievement. :D Thanks, it feels good!
Mother: "Would you like to attend and worship me?"
Portia: "No thanks".
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D *hic* :D :D :D :D
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Hopalong…
(I am anger phobic and horrified by roaring.) So...I felt really guilty about that. But it wasn't toxic shame.
My parents NEVER argued or raised their voices.
NEVER. ?? Maybe they did. Maybe when you were a wee baby? Maybe when you were a wee baby you felt all the anger and rage of their inner kiddies? Having a baby brings out the ..... you know.
Maybe they didn’t? Maybe it was expressly forbidden? Maybe it was deeeeeeply repressed? Not allowing us to express anger builds rage. Rage has to come out. Maybe you had a bit of rage for a moment there on the phone? Rage to me is out-of-control anger. Scary.
My brother bullied me but it was silent, behind-their-backs terrorizing.
Want to talk more?
So anger and arguing and shouting just never happened...so I don't know how to cope with them.
Anger is just dandy and fine. :D Arguing (disagreeing) is just okay. :D
Shouting…well… I don’t like shouting, not necessary. Shouting = regressing. How old are we when we shout? About 5 or 6? Unless we’re shouting at that approaching tiger or bear… :shock:
To cope with them. Cope with your anger and shouting – or other people’s? Which makes you feel worse – your own or someone else’s?
Never too late to learn, I hope.
It’s not too late to feel the feelings and know where they come from and that it’s okay, they’re just feelings (even rage!), they won’t kill you or anyone else. And there’s nothing to be afraid of. (Well, unless you have a repressed anger so deep that the rage could be overwhelming and you could injure yourself or someone else….some memory here. Not good. Glad that’s over and done with. :D Very glad.)
Oh by the way: which emphasized sin and evil so much that I felt if I did anything wrong I was horrible
What wrong things did you do? I’m serious, I want to know! Did you show your bits to the boy next door and he showed you his bits? (I did!) Who did you murder?
Have you done anything majorly wrong in your life? Have I?.....really…yeah I have. I beat up a kid when I was about 6/7 and I didn’t ‘need’ to do it (WTF does 'need' mean there anyhows? :shock: :?). Why did I do it….is a question for me to find out the answer to. Mind you, the other little girl fought back very hard!
Marta; thank you!
don't let anyone make you backtrack
I don’t think they could!
you had issues around ignoring/being ignored.
Big ones.
So your mother is manipulating her way through right into your issues, by making you feel that you are ignoring her.
Umm. She doesn’t know that I have/had(?) those problems. I’m beginning to think that a big proportion of what I feel…is in fact….osmosisified emotion from her. What’s the proper term? Because I was enmeshed with her, for so darn long, I thought her beliefs were mine.
I’m sure she does feel ignored sometimes! But her own mother did it, not me. That’s why she ignored me. But seriously, she isn’t capable of manipulating me now. Only I can do that effectively!
Okay, yes, she is possibly trying to play a ‘poor me’ game with my uncle….to get through to me….but she doesn’t know me well enough to know I hate being ignored. I doubt it would enter her head! She doesn’t really see me as separate. What she feels, I feel. When I don’t react as she predicts, she is simply confused. She calls (in whichever way), she expects a response. Because of that mother-daughter bond she talks about! Very simplistic. Probably magical thinking too. The mysterious mother-daughter bond. Hmmm. Crap.
Hang on to this feeling of entitlement you've achived over your own time and attention.
Thanks (((((Marta))))) I will.
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Thanks to a PM (thanks :D), another realisation…..
I think I’m not okay with sex….but actually I probably am. So where did I get the idea that I’m not??? Ha. Bingo.
The simplest things are sometimes the most difficult to realise.
I am sexually okay! I am not perverse! I am not a sex addict! I am not a tease/promiscuous/etc etc.
I was told that I am (“you are sexually oriented; I am romantically oriented” projection followed by grandiose tosh)
I was made to feel things that I did not want to feel. Dirty. Bad. Evil.
I was made to feel that I was sexually ‘bad’.
I was the dumping ground for a load of projectile about her sexuality. She was the dumping ground for her mother’s (unconfirmed, possible) father’s incest.
None of this belongs to me. I can choose to not want it. Anyone else want this? How much would I get on Ebay? :D
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Maybe not ebay....
How about putting it through the shredder, one bit at a time?
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The mysterious mother-daughter bond. Hmmm.
It’s funny how things sometimes synchronise. I was listening to BBC Radio4 Woman’s Hour and a piece about a woman whose baby son had died while staying overnight with a child-minder (I deplore the term ‘child-minder’. Language shapes our thoughts and beliefs and that term does no good.)
The ‘child-minder’ had left the kiddie in his bath while she got down a second bottle of wine, on her own. Yeah she had issues, obviously. Binge-drinking (there’s another term that shapes our thinking and beliefs) being one of her activities. The kiddie drowned.
The mother was interviewed (the child died about 2 years ago) for her side of the story. She is now campaigning for better regulation of child-minders, better checks, rules for their employment. So that was the thrust of her interview.
She described what happened (from her point of view) when the child died: she didn’t find out until hours later (the minder had called the police, ambulance etc, child sent to hospital).
What’s interesting is that the mother said she didn’t know he was dead until hours after the event. BUT……. He died at midnight. She said: “I’m sure there are other mothers listening who will know what I mean when I say at midnight I had this terrible feeling that something was very wrong with him.”
To which I said to the radio, quite calmly (for me): “So why didn’t you do something?”
Either:
People’s brains will do the most amazing gymnastics in order to manage the great grief and guilt that that mother probably felt and feels.
Or:
There really is a magical mother-child bond, like an invisible umbilical cord that binds them together across the miles.
I know what I think. Actions speak louder than words.
Do I condemn the woman for her non-action? For leaving her child with someone she obviously didn’t know very well? For her blaming the lack of regulation and rules for her child’s death?
Yes and no. I wonder if she will ever understand why she does and says the things she does and says. Does it matter? I think so. If we can stop children dying.
Hey H&H
How about putting it through the shredder, one bit at a time?
Nooooo! :D It’s all darn good material for The Book!!! It didn’t kill me, it’s making me stronger and I can live with it. It is part of me and my history….or herstory.... :D
If I’m not back later, have a great weekend all.
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Portia...
thanks for your thoughtful questions yesterday...just been too swamped.
Just want you to know I appreciate them and will answer.
H & H you too...you've said such prodding (in a good way) things about NMom that I haven't responded to...
Big hugs to you both and to everyone...
catch you asap,
Hopalong
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Hiya Hopalong
thanks for your thoughtful questions yesterday...just been too swamped.
Just want you to know I appreciate them and will answer.
Thank you. Is it okay if I keep talking? Do you mind if it flips the page? Can you still come back to your stuff? Are there rules I don’t about yet….?
:D Haha! Just a laugh. And I really enjoyed your spotlight on poor old Steve just then on H&H’s thread. I like watching brilliance in action. Soooo true.
Thanks for being you Hopalong. Hope you can take it easy a bit.
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To me it doesn't matter if Steve was writing H&H's biodad directly or not...the effect of his answer is the same.
Anyway, Portia...I feel like I'm too exhausted to analyse my brother but he was a huge bully and his bullying wasn't uber violent, but he did things that many people used to blow off (when I talked about it years later) as NORMAL--kids fight. I know they do. But something was wrong with him &/or me because I never got over it and still feel uneasy around him (same brother, only one, who invaded my computer...last year, at age 58...so I think his invasive disrespect isn't something he grew out of the way some squabbling siblings grow out of their conflicst). Anyway, he just: pulled my hair, twisted my arms, punched me, tormented me in one way or another...
I was an oversensitive small-for-my-age little girl and I cried in the afternoons because I dreaded going home to him. My folks did nothing effectual, ever, to intervene. Because Happy Family Impression was all that counted.
One significant memory I have is that my 2nd H said of my brother as an adult after they met: "He has scary eyes." And he was right. He still does have scary eyes. I feel sorry for him now but do not have any desire to be with him ever at all. And dread his visits.
H & H, I feel you're utterly right I need more mental space free of NMom. I do not, honestly do not, have the option of moving out right now...but I can try to carve out more private space for myself. And time.
(Today she announced she's moving up to the 2nd floor again. She'd been in a first floor bedroom since her latest illness and it's foolish to risk the stairs. Not to mention I dread the additional intrusions...which are inevitable. She ALWAYS finds an excuse to knock on my door and break my concentration, even if I'm working ferociously on a deadline. So tonight she mentioned that "Oh I won't bother you at all...it's just hard sharing a house with all these RESTRICTIONS.") I sort of shrink inside because her promises to give me peace are meaningless. Anyway, there it is.
Feeling blue at the moment because I officially surrendered my old job to my friend today...and am sitting in my office feeling very isolated and with the 6-month clock begun. I must find a new job and there are very slim pickings.
Don't need solutions, just sympathy. (Ain't that annoying?) But it does help so much to vent. So thank you for listening.
Hugs,
Hops
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it's just hard sharing a house with all these RESTRICTIONS.
Yeah ma! I feel the same way! I can't work, I can't sleep, I can't relax, I can't go out......I hear ya. (Fantasy response.)
Hoppy, I just have one word for your mum. Yuck!!!!!! Once she is upstairs......could you move to the downstairs, preferably out of hearing range? Perhaps you should try a little passive aggressive behaviour. I know about this from my H. Just act innocent, "I didn't hear you" "I forgot" "I didn't understand" "I can't find it", etc. You're much too effiicent as a caregiver!
Plucky